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krossbow
2007-12-03, 11:33 AM
Just asking. going over D&D, shields just don't seem to be worth it. they provide a small bonus to AC, and thats about it. On the other hand, with two weapon fighting and other feats, your character becomes a massively more powerful force on the battlefield.



In addition, you need a feat to simply bash with a shield and not lose it's AC bonus, almost an insult considering the damage a bash does.
Personally, when looking over the point of a shield bash in actual combat, I think that shield bash should provide additional effects, and that the shield should have some other bonuses.

For example, the feat that lets you add the shield to touch AC just seems to make sense to be in their originally. How many pictures have you seen of a noble knight blocking dragons breath with their shield? yet this is an impossibility in D&D. in fact, this use is prevalent in dragon fights, such as beowulf.
Another effect about shields is that in fighting with them (real life) they are used to unbalance your opponents, knocking their weapons away, blinding them to your movements, and knocking them off balance. Shield bash's current feat shouldn't be required; instead, improved shield bash should be a chain of feats that do things such as decrease the opponents AC or chance to hit when you shield bash them, decrease either their AC or BAB when they miss you and you have a shield (maybe require that to use up an attack of opportunity since your bashing the weapon away), and perhaps even have it provoke and attack of opportunity in Iron heroes.




As is, I don't believe I've seen a campaign where it's useful to use a shield past level 4.

Shades of Gray
2007-12-03, 11:49 AM
for the whole "knock off balance thing/Disarm weapons" Make a sunder or disarm check with your shield.

But most people who have a shield at high levels, they have an animated shield. I haven't really seen a high level character with a shield, except for Dwarven Defenders and Knights.

Leadfeathermcc
2007-12-03, 11:49 AM
If you want to make shields more valuable in your campaign do as Tyger suggested in another thread. Give them double their AC bonus and make it apply to touch attacks also.

Theli
2007-12-03, 11:50 AM
Bleh, nm....

Matthew
2007-12-03, 11:51 AM
It's not Two Weapon Fighting that makes the Shield redundant, it's Two Handed Power Attack and Animated Shields. However, yes, you are right to note that because Armour Class scales so much higher in D20, the Shield has suffered a corresponding loss of usefulness.

Shades of Gray
2007-12-03, 03:09 PM
check the thread "Shields are more powerful than a greatsword" thread. It says how a shield can be better than two handed weapons.

that is not the actual thread name, but it shouldn't be hard to find

Matthew
2007-12-03, 03:38 PM
As it happens, I have seen that approach many times before (indeed, I even suggested it during the course of one of the lengthy Shield versus Two Handed Weapons discussions). As I recall, it all hinges on being allowed to use a Heavy Shield Two Handed, which I think is possible, but Lord Silvanos doesn't (last time I checked).

Yrnes
2007-12-03, 04:51 PM
check the thread "Shields are more powerful than a greatsword" thread. It says how a shield can be better than two handed weapons.

that is not the actual thread name, but it shouldn't be hard to find

I believe this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65320) is the thread you we're speaking of.

MobiusKlein
2007-12-03, 04:59 PM
The bonus to AC is not so minute as you think.
Do remember that the enchantment bonus on the shield stacks with the bonus on the base armor.

a heavy shield with a +3 bonus gets you +5 to ac.
If that makes the d20 roll needed to hit you go from 11 to 16, that removes half the hits against you.

Sornjss Lichdom
2007-12-03, 05:01 PM
buy the ring. much better.

TheOtherMC
2007-12-03, 05:02 PM
The bonus to AC is not so minute as you think.
Do remember that the enchantment bonus on the shield stacks with the bonus on the base armor.

a heavy shield with a +3 bonus gets you +5 to ac.
If that makes the d20 roll needed to hit you go from 11 to 16, that removes half the hits against you.

Um...if im not mistaken isnt the AC bonus froma heavy shield a +3?

MobiusKlein
2007-12-03, 05:18 PM
Um...if im not mistaken isnt the AC bonus from a heavy shield a +3?
I should have said "heavy shield (+2) with a +3 enhancement bonus" for clarity. But the idea is that you are trading Offense for Defense, and that can work.

And if you feel like additional feats for shield dudes:
See http://www.giantitp.com/articles/ruIuiKxNerFBCOi5fK8.html

Tamburlaine
2007-12-03, 05:18 PM
Pinch the shield rules from the A Game Of Thrones d20, shields are great in that: decent bonuses to armour class (+6 for a smaller shield,+8 for a big one0, but if the attacker decides not to try and get past the shield you lose the ac bonus for that attack, but the shield takes the damage if the attacker hits

weenie
2007-12-03, 05:22 PM
Um...if im not mistaken isnt the AC bonus froma heavy shield a +3?

It's actually +2, but it was meant that the shield should have a +3 enhancement thus granting a +5 to AC.

And in response to who wrote to get the ring: A ring of protection? 50,000 gp. A heavy shield +3? 9,170 gp. Having that extra protection at low levels? Priceless.

Fawsto
2007-12-03, 06:11 PM
Animated Shields are a Must to everyone who can use them. C'mon.. You can also get yourself some "defensive shield spikes" to get even more armor class. That if you consider a Shield Spikes to be something "separated" from the shield as armor spikes are. If you don't, ok...

Check this: Dancing Spiked Shield (the enhancement that allows your weapon to attack on her own). Also I'd say that it still keeps your armor class as the same thing of a Animated Shield. Add to this a GreatSword Power attacker and let him fight as a TWFr and let'im reap.

I really dunno if this is possible, but I hope so XD.

Quietus
2007-12-03, 11:00 PM
check the thread "Shields are more powerful than a greatsword" thread. It says how a shield can be better than two handed weapons.

that is not the actual thread name, but it shouldn't be hard to find

Sadly, this has been (somewhat) shot down - they're only EQUAL to greatswords now. You know, plus the whole "Here's a bonus to AC" bit on top of that if you take a feat. There's also some minor wording things regarding whether or not a shield *must* be used as off-hand... I'm intending to check that when I have time to take a good look at my books.