Thought experiment - just items, no advancement

[Quertus]

So, theory is, “the real world” caps out at about level 7 or so.

So suppose some “e7” characters tried to make their way in an otherwise “normal” D&D world. How far could a party of e7 characters get on the strength of, well, a 7th level chassis, and a full selection of items?

UMD and scrolls let them *eventually* pull off utility outside of combat, but their HP, BAB, saving throws, and combat spells all seem pretty limited.

How far do you think they could go before having to admit they’ve reached their limit?

[Thunder999]

Really depends on how you're handling wealth and items, because there's very little that can't be done by just spamming Candles of Invocaation.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Given that an artificer's power is like 99% magic items, and they're considered one of the strongest T1s out there, I'd say pretty damned high.

[AvatarVecna]

Depends how much you can play around with spell items and special restrictions. Restricting things by skill/alignment/class is a reduction in actual market price and thus raises the ceiling slightly on what's legal pre-epic. Even if you're not giving up and just spamming wishes, there's a lot of strong low/mid level spell buffs you can slap into items.

Delay Death (cleric 4) and a big Autohypnosis bonus will allow you to act normally and not be dead no matter how far into the negatives your HP get.

Wraithstrike (Wizard 2) all but guarantees you'll hit in melee.

If you started with Cha 8, a +5 tome and a Cloak Of saves +5/cha +6/triple Ruin Delvers Fortune is an easy +9 to all saves (or higher if Base cha is higher).

Item of Continuous "Consumptive Field" (cleric 4) can give NI strength - only the CL boost is capped.

Just a few examples.

[icefractal]

If NI stuff is on the table ... then they do as well as anyone else, because once they get/make a Candle of Invocation they're operating at the same nigh-infinite power level.

In fact, if minion-mancy is on the table at all, they're probably fine. Ice Assassin, for example, already costs money, so the extra cost of it being a scroll is pretty minor, and whatever tricks regular casters are using to ignore that cost, the "cash-o-mancer" can do as well.

I'd say the trickiest part is the mid-levels, bridging the gap from 7th level foes (who they can handle fine) to the point they can afford 9th level scrolls. Because when they're at the point where they have, say, 12th level equivalent gear but nothing really high-level, it's going to be tough going.

So if by "normal D&D world" you mean that the foes are closer to MM-standard than fully optimized, I don't think the E7 party hits any limit - they may need to proceed more cautiously than a fully-leveled party, but they're likely to reach the point where their magic items basically make them a high-level caster. A little weaker than high-level casters who also have HD and PrC features, but only a little.

Of course that's assuming the E7 party is somewhat optimized and taking their situation into account for tactics. If they're trying to play like they were a normal party, they might run into trouble as early as 10th level or so.

[Thunder999]

The main area they'll be lacking is offensive magic, since magic items all have terrible DCs and usually bad CL (though you might be able to just buy them at higher level) and if they can't boost the CL of the items, dispels will be a problem.

[Quertus]

So… hmmm… assume an open world, such that that they can (for example) grind lower-level threats to build up money, until they’re able to take on tougher threats. But that they aren’t adventuring full time, and plan on retiring after… hmmm… I think about 2 decades is fairly long run for a soldier, right?

Optimization level is… all over the place. So the worst optimizers (who actually survived to level 7) will probably fail out quickly, by CR 10 threats or so. True infinity isn’t on the table (Playground standard), but, otherwise… hmmm… I guess my question is, a party that’s full of the best optimizers (slash the luckiest individuals whose aptitudes and plans match what an optimizer would build), how capable can they get, how big can that “one last score” that lets them finally retire be? At most, they’re looking at a few years of hard work, with a decade or two of downtime interspersed in there.

I’m feeling silly that I hadn’t considered Simulacrum / Ice Assassin, although those do require a hefty budget. And… dumb question, but what’s the beat way for them to use Wraithstrike?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

One of the absolute best items to get for offense, defense, utility, and mobility is the psychoactive skin of proteus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus), which could basically be the center of a character build in itself.

And don't forget that you can use money to buy feats (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts), which basically makes you better than a fighter, since you can DCFS them out for anything, rather than just crummy fighter feats, and you can get a lot more of them than a fighter can, with enough cleverness.

And then you have this trick (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?246396-Another-Addition-To-The-Tippyverse), which basically nets you infinite money, if you want it. Just make sure the initial bag is full of gold and/or platinum, and you can literally make money. It's also fantastic for cloning magic items, as well.

A group of e6's with lots and lots of money could potentially make it to epic without much issue, so long as they are careful about the kinds of things they face. Heck, a group of 1st level characters could do so, if they were a bit more careful than that.

[RandomPeasant]

I'd say the trickiest part is the mid-levels, bridging the gap from 7th level foes (who they can handle fine) to the point they can afford 9th level scrolls. Because when they're at the point where they have, say, 12th level equivalent gear but nothing really high-level, it's going to be tough going.

If NI stuff is on the table, they don't ever need to fight anything, so unless the comment about the real world is meant to imply that none of these characters are casters, they can just have the party wizard sit around casting wall of salt (which is a 4th level spell) over and over until they have enough money to buy whatever specific items they want to use to break the game. So if the goal is just to get "one last score" and retire, an out-of-the-box 7th level character can already make a prodigious income without ever having to personally assume any risk.

[NichG]

So, theory is, “the real world” caps out at about level 7 or so.

So suppose some “e7” characters tried to make their way in an otherwise “normal” D&D world. How far could a party of e7 characters get on the strength of, well, a 7th level chassis, and a full selection of items?

UMD and scrolls let them *eventually* pull off utility outside of combat, but their HP, BAB, saving throws, and combat spells all seem pretty limited.

How far do you think they could go before having to admit they’ve reached their limit?

Actual e7 (infinite feats eventually too?) or just 'Lv7'? Also, are items limited to those that can actually be made by this party? Also, are custom magic items following the magic item creation rules allowed?

If you can do custom magic items, there are a lot of different stacking bonus types you can finagle, so at least for ability scores of interest you're looking at like +30 by stacking Enhancement, Sacred, Profane, Luck and Morale bonuses. That can be pushed a bit further by throwing gold at keeping higher level buff spells up - Wu Jen Giant Size can give I think a +12 Size bonus to Strength, and Owl's Insight I think can get you up to a +10 Enhancement to Wisdom rather than just +6. Belt of Battle is probably best-in-slot there even if it displaces the Belt of Magnificence +6 as it gives you extra actions (but if custom is on the table, reprice and make a slotless version...), just have a backpack full of them so everyone basically gets an extra round once per fight. For saving throws, the Ring of Nine Lives lets you auto-succeed on a certain number of saves before it expends its charges, so again keep a pouch full of those and swap as you need to. For to-hit, Limited Wish explicitly says that one of the effects it can produce is to auto-hit on an attack without rolling, so if you really need to land one big effect... For that matter, keeping the party stocked with Luckblades means everyone can burn a Wish a round for three rounds, and there are some pretty good spells you can emulate with that which don't depend too much on save DC or caster level - probably Maze and Polymorph Any Object are the go-to ones to emulate (Earthquake would be great but you can only go up to 6th level non-wizard spells and its Earth domain 7 - so close!).

Actually, if custom is on the table, no reason you couldn't (eventually) price out an item of at-will Summon Elemental Monolith or something like that, and just let the summon fight on your behalf.

If its actual e7 including excessive feat access, there are tricks to basically loop your caster level up quite high and then use that to make magic items with high caster levels. I forgot what all of the tricks are, but I had a player pull of CL 23 or so in an E6 game in very specific circumstances used for item crafting.

For 'lots of money' rather than 'infinite money' I'd guess its worth about +5-6 character levels.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If it were me in that situation, I'd get some money together and hire the spellcasting services of a wizard or psion, and get my mind transferred into a much, much stronger body, one capable of powerful at-will shapeshifting. Like, say, a phasm (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) or one of the more advanced types of doppelganger. (Improved) Assume Supernatural Ability and Metamorphic Transfer would be fantastic feats to purchase in that situation, for sure.

[Crake]

I think dnd does very poorly in the neat gadgets department, mostly because everything can just be overshadowed by scroll or wand of X, rather than having the gadget.

Also, if the characters are limited to level 7, is the gear likewise limited to what a level 7 character could make/do?



If its actual e7 including excessive feat access, there are tricks to basically loop your caster level up quite high and then use that to make magic items with high caster levels. I forgot what all of the tricks are, but I had a player pull of CL 23 or so in an E6 game in very specific circumstances used for item crafting.

Worth noting that caster level is very rarely actually a crafting requirement, and simply being able to have a CL of 23 still wouldnt enable you to make, say, a candle of invocation unless you had some way to ignore the spell requirement of gate, but then, having a cl of 23 wouldnt be necessary anyway

[NichG]

I think dnd does very poorly in the neat gadgets department, mostly because everything can just be overshadowed by scroll or wand of X, rather than having the gadget.

Also, if the characters are limited to level 7, is the gear likewise limited to what a level 7 character could make/do?



Worth noting that caster level is very rarely actually a crafting requirement, and simply being able to have a CL of 23 still wouldnt enable you to make, say, a candle of invocation unless you had some way to ignore the spell requirement of gate, but then, having a cl of 23 wouldnt be necessary anyway

In that e6 game it actually turned out to be a rate limiting step. Yes there are a handful of famously broken items that require big spells, but there's also stuff that has caster level limits but fairly low level spell requirements. In particular I think CL 12 was important since it gets you all the ioun stones as well as access to Forge Ring.

[Crake]

In that e6 game it actually turned out to be a rate limiting step. Yes there are a handful of famously broken items that require big spells, but there's also stuff that has caster level limits but fairly low level spell requirements. In particular I think CL 12 was important since it gets you all the ioun stones as well as access to Forge Ring.

Doesnt e6 specifically have a feat that allows you to get forge ring without the level 12 cl requirement though?

[NichG]

Doesnt e6 specifically have a feat that allows you to get forge ring without the level 12 cl requirement though?

There are lots of variations on e6, like whether you use capstone feats that give access to 4th level spells and so on.

[Crake]

There are lots of variations on e6, like whether you use capstone feats that give access to 4th level spells and so on.

Right, but if you’re gonna allow shennanigans to get forge ring, why not just use the built in feat instead of having to resort to shenannigans?

[NichG]

Right, but if you’re gonna allow shennanigans to get forge ring, why not just use the built in feat instead of having to resort to shenannigans?

I don't even remember if I allowed or included those feats in that game. I probably didn't, not out of specifically excluding them but this was around when e6 was first proposed on EnWorld and those feats were added over time by people.

[Quertus]

So, importantly, “normal D&D world” means that the normal populous isn’t limited to e7. So there’s plenty of 20th level / epic Wizards running around, like you’d expect from, say, Toril. However, this group (say, the PCs) is limited to level 7.

This idea started “long ago” with someone posting an idea that different people have different limits. I picked level 7 just because it’s the “consensus” of how to stat out this world.

I guess one way to look at the question is… hmmm… if a group was capped at level 7 (or e7, if that helps), and had to deal with incomplete information, how high level / CR threats would you gamble that the “best” such group could handle before they retire?

No, that’s backwards: the goal is actually to optimize the retirement fund, the “CR of things defeated” is more a side-effect of that. Also, we’re dealing with more of a “slacker” work ethic than a Determinator. They’re not the best around (by far), the world doesn’t really need them, they’re just stubbornly adventuring part-time because… they’re too proud to quit, or something. Not until they defeat <whatever stretch goal is actually possible>.


If NI stuff is on the table, they don't ever need to fight anything, so unless the comment about the real world is meant to imply that none of these characters are casters, they can just have the party wizard sit around casting wall of salt (which is a 4th level spell) over and over until they have enough money to buy whatever specific items they want to use to break the game. So if the goal is just to get "one last score" and retire, an out-of-the-box 7th level character can already make a prodigious income without ever having to personally assume any risk.

True. Even without Wall of Salt, there’s plenty of Craft-based income. Or crafting magic items for cash, because what else are you going to do with the XP after you hit your cap? (Gain feats, apparently? I’m not familiar with e6, but I suspect cash >> feats, especially if feats can be bought)


Actual e7 (infinite feats eventually too?) or just 'Lv7'? Also, are items limited to those that can actually be made by this party? Also, are custom magic items following the magic item creation rules allowed?

Good questions.

I guess actual e7 (how would you implement the idea that different people have different limits?)? Which means… they can get feats? Not terribly useful compared to spending the XP crafting, IMO.

No, there’s plenty of 20th level / epic Wizards running around the setting - these guys are limited to 7th level.

Custom items… that’s tricky. I haven’t chosen a setting, so… the “average” setting at my tables, you can absolutely combine stuff, move stuff around wrt what slot it takes (even beyond MIC, usually), etc. Stacking bonuses is a thing… and pricing by the books on those, sure… they just likely can’t meet the requirements to craft them themselves, which matters for effective cost.

Speaking of, if I’m remembering the math right, the Belt of Magnificence only saves 16k out of 216k, so I wouldn’t spend 12k (each) making unslotted Belt of Battle substitutes. That sounds suboptimal. Instead, I’d just combine stat boosters with other items - Cloak of Charismatic Protection, for example.

Truly custom items… are usually possible, but… not something you’d normally want for optimization purposes. Assume truly custom items will be more expensive than they’re worth, and are usually only for “quality of life”, “retirement” items, outside cool minor effects like “this sword floats” or such. Put another way, unless you’ve got a really clever use for a really minor effect, if it will actually let you take on higher CR foes, assume that there’s a cheaper way (Scroll of Simulacrum, for example) to accomplish something better.


For saving throws, the Ring of Nine Lives lets you auto-succeed on a certain number of saves before it expends its charges, so again keep a pouch full of those and swap as you need to. For to-hit, Limited Wish explicitly says that one of the effects it can produce is to auto-hit on an attack without rolling, so if you really need to land one big effect... For that matter, keeping the party stocked with Luckblades means everyone can burn a Wish a round for three rounds, and there are some pretty good spells you can emulate with that which don't depend too much on save DC or caster level - probably Maze and Polymorph Any Object are the go-to ones to emulate (Earthquake would be great but you can only go up to 6th level non-wizard spells and its Earth domain 7 - so close!).

Those are great, but not cost effective to rely on against most foes. They definitely have potential for how big that one final score can be, though.

(Yeah, not “infinite funds” - the goal is to retire with the best toys, lazily grinding foes they can actually face to do so; the question is, how good can they get in the process?)


Actually, if custom is on the table, no reason you couldn't (eventually) price out an item of at-will Summon Elemental Monolith or something like that, and just let the summon fight on your behalf.

I’ve been assuming this is more of a “this is what our final score paid for” end goal.


For 'lots of money' rather than 'infinite money' I'd guess its worth about +5-6 character levels.

Oof. Even with all those stacked bonuses, you’re not expecting performance above 13th level? Well, that’s still a really challenging but technically possible CR17 boss fight, so I guess that’s not too shabby for a level 7 character to work towards.


If it were me in that situation, I'd get some money together and hire the spellcasting services of a wizard or psion, and get my mind transferred into a much, much stronger body, one capable of powerful at-will shapeshifting. Like, say, a phasm (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) or one of the more advanced types of doppelganger. (Improved) Assume Supernatural Ability and Metamorphic Transfer would be fantastic feats to purchase in that situation, for sure.

Psion has… Greater Mind Switch? Have I got the name right? Wizard has… Polymorph Any Object? Is that the tech you’re using? Or a Savage Species ritual?

Not gonna lie, if it were me, I’d love to find a willing body to swap with in that scenario, too! (“C’mon, oh Great Dragon, you know how fast humans can advance their skills! It’s a swell deal!”)


Also, if the characters are limited to level 7, is the gear likewise limited to what a level 7 character could make/do?

Gear is not limited; it’s just these guys who have reached their limit.

Given that, just how good can these guys get before they retire?

[Maat Mons]

If they're only after the loot, why even fight the monsters? Sneak into the dungeon, grab the treasure, sneak back out of the dungeon.

[Gnaeus]

Group depending, but if this E7 group had, for example, a Wizard, a Cleric and a Dread Necro, it is reasonable that they could have 7x4x3=84 HD of animated minions just from Animate dead. + more minions from Control Undead. 8 Hasted Prayered properly selected 14hd skeletons can handle quite high CR challenges, as long as they are things that can be meleed

[AvatarVecna]

Gear is not limited; it’s just these guys who have reached their limit.

Given that, just how good can these guys get before they retire?

If the world isn't limited, it's just these characters that are limited...well, it's illegal to make epic gear pre-epic, and it's very difficult to buy epic gear pre-epic, but it's not illegal to wear epic items pre-epic. If you're stuck at lvl 7 but can collect money forever, as long as you're able to access the magic item markets of the infinite outer planes, you can find someone selling what you're wanting to buy. And magic items get better forever. It's mostly just a question of how much money you can make.

[NichG]

Oof. Even with all those stacked bonuses, you’re not expecting performance above 13th level? Well, that’s still a really challenging but technically possible CR17 boss fight, so I guess that’s not too shabby for a level 7 character to work towards.


To be specific, I'd expect Lv7 characters with the WBL of Lv20 characters and no particularly weird shortcuts to be about as powerful as Lv13 characters with the WBL of Lv13 characters.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psion has… Greater Mind Switch? Have I got the name right? Wizard has… Polymorph Any Object? Is that the tech you’re using? Or a Savage Species ritual?

Not gonna lie, if it were me, I’d love to find a willing body to swap with in that scenario, too! (“C’mon, oh Great Dragon, you know how fast humans can advance their skills! It’s a swell deal!”)Greater mind switch is a possibility, yes. It's also doable with regular mind switch if you jump through a few cheap hoops. PAO would only work if you have a form with HD equal to or less than 7, since polymorph is capped by HD, and nothing in PAO's rules text breaks that cap (although several of the examples do, but they're breaking the rules in the spell itself, so they're unreliable, at best, without houseruling it, which most people do; the whole thing is horribly dysfunctional). Permanent magic jar could do it, if you UMD a scroll or otherwise have some way to cast it yourself.

There's also turning yourself into a ghost or fiend of possession (somehow) and possessing the body of a very powerful creature.

[Crake]

Given that, just how good can these guys get before they retire?

Trick question, THEY cant get any better than level 7 characters. Extrinsic power through gear will never change that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Fusion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm) + astral seed (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) can gestalt+ the manifester with another creature or character. Now, just do that again and again and again and...

Note that you can do this to gain additional class levels easily, especially if you've got people willing to do so for, say, large amounts of money...

[Quertus]

If they're only after the loot, why even fight the monsters? Sneak into the dungeon, grab the treasure, sneak back out of the dungeon.

That's definitely a plan... right up until you hit a monster with Scent, or Tremorsense, or some other sensory power you hadn't accounted for. Or traps, I suppose.

Anyway, I have no doubt that if, say, there were 100 e7 parties in this scenario, competing to see who can earn the best retirement package, some of them tried this route. I just feel that they will be at a comparative disadvantage when asking "which party gets the most $$$ for retirement", since a) depending on the GM, they may get less XP to trade for $$$; b) if they're spec'd for stealth, and have to combat a foe that finds them, they may be more likely to die.

Then again... they'll be at "full resources" for that combat encounter (if they can then hide/escape afterwards, that is), so... maybe it's a good plan after all.


capped by HD

Yeah, that's part of why I asked.


Permanent magic jar could do it, if you UMD a scroll or otherwise have some way to cast it yourself.

There's also turning yourself into a ghost or fiend of possession (somehow) and possessing the body of a very powerful creature.

Ghost sounds the most viable to me... although I pity the poor ghost who is forced to "work" for decades, to save up for retirement, only for that to trigger their "completed the goal that kept them on earth" condition.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Polymorph (et al) is capped by the target's HD and the CL of the spell. Metamorphosis is only capped by ML, not the target's HD.

The latter is also not limited to +/- 1 size category like alter self and everything based on it are.

[Crake]

Could also get wedded to history, and a ring of sustenance to negate 90% of your living expenses, and just accrue wealth over generations upon generations, become hyper nobility, and just buy whatever you want with your masses of wealth?

Questing? Pah. Become the quest giver

[Quertus]

Polymorph (et al) is capped by the target's HD and the CL of the spell. Metamorphosis is only capped by ML, not the target's HD.

The latter is also not limited to +/- 1 size category like alter self and everything based on it are.

Why are psionics so much better than magic? (Also, Metamorphosis does still have an upper cap, right?)


Could also get wedded to history, and a ring of sustenance to negate 90% of your living expenses, and just accrue wealth over generations upon generations, become hyper nobility, and just buy whatever you want with your masses of wealth?

Questing? Pah. Become the quest giver

I figured a Ring of Sustenance would be good for the long haul, but what is wedded to history? What does it add? Immortality?

I consider Necropolitan or Bone template for such things, but hadn’t considered that perhaps an immortal needn’t ever truly retire. That… kinda puts a kink in my thought experiment.

[AvatarVecna]

30% normal market price: Triple-Restricted (skill/class/alignment)

64000: AC +8 (Armor)

50000: NA +5 (Enhancement)

62500: AC +5 (insight)

62500: AC +5 (luck)

62500: AC +5 (profane)

62500: AC +5 (sacred)

30% normal market price: Triple-Restricted (skill/class/alignment)

121000: Continuous "True Seeing" CL 4 via Sublime Chord

3000: Continuous "Ebon Eyes"

120000: Continuous "That Art Thou"

64000: Continuous "Greater Blindsight" via Ur-Priest

45000: Continuous "Tremorsense"



30% normal market price: Triple-Restricted (skill/class/alignment)

8000: Continuous "Haste" CL 1 via Trapsmith

24000: Continuous "Flight Of The Dragon" CL 2 via Sublime Chord

32000: Continuous "Aerial Alacrity" CL 2 via Sublime Chord

12000: Continuous "Cloud Wings"

24000: Continuous "Wings Of Air"

2000: Continuous "Wings Of Swift Flying"

24000: Continuous "Burrow"

3000: Continuous "Rapid Burrowing"

4000: Continuous "Wings Of The Sea"

24000: Continuous "Freedom Of Movement" CL 2 via Sublime Chord

120000: Continuous "Lion's Pounce"



30% normal market price: Triple-Restricted (skill/class/alignment)

200000: Continuous "Divine Agility" CL 9 vs Ur-Priest

48000: Continuous "Wraithstrike"

256000: Continuous "Superior Invisibility" CL 8 via Sublime Chord

72000: Continuous "Combat Readiness" CL 18

4000: Continuous "Kaupaer's Skittish Nerves"

15000: Continuous "Primal Instinct"



30% normal market price: Triple-Restricted (skill/class/alignment)

512000: Continuous "Necrotic Empowerment" CL 8 via Ur-Priest

36000: At-Will Command Word "Divine Insight" CL 10



30% normal market price: Triple-Restricted (skill/class/alignment)

648000: Continuous "Choose Destiny" CL 9 via Divine Crusader



30% normal market price: Triple-Restricted (skill/class/alignment)

392000: Continuous "Greater Shield Of Lathander" CL 7 via Divine Crusader

36000: Continuous "Energy Immunity (Acid)" CL 6 via Ur-Priest

36000: Continuous "Energy Immunity (Cold)" CL 6 via Ur-Priest

36000: Continuous "Energy Immunity (Electricity)" CL 6 via Ur-Priest

36000: Continuous "Energy Immunity (Fire)" CL 6 via Ur-Priest

36000: Continuous "Energy Immunity (Sonic)" CL 6 via Ur-Priest



30% normal market price: Triple-Restricted (skill/class/alignment)

24000: Continuous "Superior Resistance" CL 4 via Sublime Chord

64000: Continuous "Ruin Delver's Fortune (Fortitude)" CL 2 via Sublime Chord

64000: Continuous "Ruin Delver's Fortune (Reflex)" CL 2 via Sublime Chord

64000: Continuous "Ruin Delver's Fortune (Will)" CL 2 via Sublime Chord

50000: Saves +5 (insight)

50000: Saves +5 (profane)

50000: Saves +5 (sacred)

72000: Continuous "Nixie's Grace" CL 4 via Sublime Chord

64000: Continuous "Sirine's Grace" CL 2 via Sublime Chord

36000: Continuous "Devil's Ego" CL 3 via Divine Crusader

24500: Continuous "Inner Beauty" CL 2 via Sublime Chord

72000: Continuous "Snowsong" CL 4 via Sublime Chord



30% normal market price: Triple-Restricted (skill/class/alignment)

200000: Continuous "Owl's Insight" CL 20

64000: Continuous "Mind Blank" CL 8 via Divine Crusader

96000: Continuous "Empyreal Ecstasy" CL 4 via Sublime Chord

40000: Continuous "Greater Heroism" CL 2 via Sublime Chord



30% normal market price: Triple-Restricted (skill/class/alignment)

200000: SR 32

120000: Continuous "Undulant Innards"

64000: Continuous "Sheltered Vitality" CL 4 via Ur-Priest

64000: Continuous "Friendly Fire" CL 2 via Sublime Chord

96000: Continuous "Starmantle" CL 4 via Sublime Chord



30% normal market price: Triple-Restricted (skill/class/alignment)

36000: Con +6 (enhancement)

13000: Monk's Belt

128000: Continuous "Consumptive Field" CL 4 via Ur-Priest

200000: Continuous "Greater Vigor" CL 5 via Ur-Priest

112000: Continuous "Favor Of The Martyr"

128000: Continuous "Divine Power" CL 4 via Ur-Priest



247500: Full Manual/Tome Set, each triple-restricted

Most of these effects can be done by an Artificer 7. The high CL spells aren't on the table, you'd need to get those custom-ordered from someone else, and unless you're playing a version of Epic 7 where Forge Ring is one of your epic feat options, the rings aren't something you can make yourself either.

Additionally, if the DM decides that -10%, -30%, and -30% to market price stack as x0.9x0.7x0.7 instead, Choose Destiny and Necrotic Empowerment are too expensive even on their own to put in items, and you'll have to shuffle effects around to get all the items under the new 453k cap.

Finally, all of these are assuming there's no extra price for putting multiple effects in one item, the way it works for some effects based on MIC rules. On the one hand, this is definitely a bad assumption because even DMs who allow custom item shenanigans like this aren't likely to allow you to get multiple effects without paying an extra tax. On the other hand, if you're paying an extra tax anyway, but you have arbitrary money to work with, what you really want to do is get yourself a Bag Of Marbles - a bag full of marbles where each marble is giving you a different buff effect as a slotless magic item, like an ioun stone except it's in your pocket instead of floating around your head for no good reason. Slotless items cost double, but that means your dozen slotted items can be a single really big effect like Choose Destiny (or something smaller like Greater Shield Of Lathander if you're working with the smaller limit). If you're doing a Bag Of Marbles, and have NI cash, you may as well get a marble of +30 to [skill] for every skill (since it's "only" 180k for a slotless huge skill bonus).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Why are psionics so much better than magic?Magic is better at a lot of things, and psionics is better at some things.

In this case, it's likely because metamorphosis is (aside from a few intentional alterations) what polymorph was supposed to be, but they clucked it up between the weirdness of basing polymorph any object off of polymorph, which itself was based on alter self, and they forgot to tighten up some legacy issues that they didn't mean to carry over, like the size thing. Simply saying, "as alter self, except you can't take a form smaller than Fine" does not negate alter self's "cannot take a form more than 1 size category away" stipulation; it just adds another limitation on top of it. The same goes with PAO's problem with HD limitations inherited from polymorph, since they forgot to mention that it could break HD caps.

The whole thing is just a big mess, but metamorphosis doesn't have that issue, since it was written from the ground up to be self-contained (aside from the stats for the forms you can take, of course).


(Also, Metamorphosis does still have an upper cap, right?)Yep. ML 15, just like polymorph, although you can (probably) break the cap with the Reserves of Strength feat, from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting.

[Thunder999]

I think part of why Psionic buffs tend to be a bit stronger is the combination of having to pay for scaling and the fact they're generally personal range (presumably for thematic reasons?).

[Maat Mons]

Darkstalker lets you sort of bypass Scent, Tremorsense, and such. Admittedly, that is one of your precious feats. As a 7th-level character, you won’t have many. Well, unless these characters capped at level 7 are using the e6 thing about spending xp for bonus feats after capping out their level. Other than that, you mostly just need max ranks in Hide and Move Silently. Though if your class doesn’t have Move Silently as a class skill, getting by other means may not be feasible. Also, if you’re a low skill point character who needs your few skill points for something else, that could be a problem.

Funny thing, two of the easiest ways to get Move Silently as class skills on Tier 1 classes are Halfling Druid substitution levels, or the Initiate of Arvoreen feat, both of which require being a halfling. But halflings don’t have the +4 racial bonus to Move Silently that goblins, kenku, norker, phanaton, and whisper gnomes do. And they don’t have Darkvision. They do, however, have small size (for +4 Hide) and a +2 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently. Not ideal (ideal is whisper gnome), but completely workable. Gonna need to pick up Darkvision from an item, and your Hide and Move Silently modifiers will be 2 less than optimal. Still, workable.

Another easy way to get Move Silently on a Tier 1 class is the Nightbringer Initiate feat. Though that only works for Druid. There are also prestige classes that fully advance spellcasting and have it as a class skill. Ruathar is the easiest to get into. But there are others. The PrC approach does require backfilling skill ranks at levels 6 and 7. If Dragon magazine material is allowed, there’s the Flexible Mind feat. I guess, strictly speaking, you could use Aereni Focus, but elves are even further behind whisper gnomes than halflings are in terms of stealth.

Anyone intending to fight above their CR would be well advised to only pick fights they know they can win. Maybe cast Invisibility on a disposable minion, and Scry on it while it explores any location you were thinking of robbing?

[Crake]

I figured a Ring of Sustenance would be good for the long haul, but what is wedded to history? What does it add? Immortality?

Yeah, it's immortality in feat form. It's from Dragon 354, basically gives you a few lore options on what flavour of immortality you want. Being endless, with no living expenses (bonus points if you're an elf and thus don't need to sleep, meaning you now no longer even need food, water, or shelter to sleep in), you can effectively spend your days however you like, and literally save every penny you make.

I forgot to add in an item of endure elements, so you can survive harsh weather without the need for shelter. I would probably also get an item to disguise yourself, so people don't start to question who you are. So yeah, hat of disguise (later upgrade to skin of the proteus I guess), ring of sustenance, and I guess a periapt of health just to make sure you don't get some horrible disease and die.

Or you could skip wedded to history and just be an elan, that works too.

[Gruftzwerg]

Warlock 6 / Marshall 1

Marshall minor aura: additional CHA bonus to CHA skills

UMD: 10 ranks

DWK with starting CHA: 20 (17 base +3 age)

+6 enhancement bonus CHA item
+5 inherit bonus CHA wishes
+6 untyped bonus CHA from Horseshoes of Flame
+1 from lvlUP at lvl 4

= 38 CHA (+14)

UMD: 10 Deceive Item + 10 ranks + 14 CHA + 14 marshall aura = 48 effectively rolled


Now buy as many Rod of Absorption as you can. These absorb spells and sla targeting you and convert em into up to 50 charges (can't be refilled, thus the reason to buy multiple rods..)
Spontaneous casters can use these charges to cast any spell they know, paying a charge for each spell level.
Knowing Spells is a class feature.

UMD can emulate class features with a UMD-20 roll.
We can emulate the spells known of a 28th lvl sorcerer (48-20= 28) and use the rod to cast em (using the emulated caster lvl). And with our high CHA modifier, we increase any possible save DC.

Access to all Sorcerer spells up to 9th lvl as long as we have the money to buy the rods.

Amulet of Wild Shape:
Another item where we can emulate the class to abuse the item. We basically get the Wild Shape ability of a 20th lvl druid.

Imho this should be enough to handle most situations.

[Crake]

Knowing Spells is a class feature.

I think it's hard to argue that knowing a specific spell is a class feature. The ability to know spells is, yes, but knowing meteor is not. This is fairly clearly evidenced by the fact that not every 18th level sorcerer will know meteor. If it was a class feature, then all sorcerers would know it.

You could probably get away with arguing this for fixed list casters like beguiler, warmage, and dread necromancer, though those class features specify that you learn said spells when you gain the spell slots, which you never do with emulate class feature.

There is a solution though: Runestaves and knowstones. You don't get that theoretical "access to every spell ever", but really, you don't NEED access to every spell ever, just a handful of powerful 9ths will do you fine.

[Gruftzwerg]

I think it's hard to argue that knowing a specific spell is a class feature. The ability to know spells is, yes, but knowing meteor is not. This is fairly clearly evidenced by the fact that not every 18th level sorcerer will know meteor. If it was a class feature, then all sorcerers would know it.

You could probably get away with arguing this for fixed list casters like beguiler, warmage, and dread necromancer, though those class features specify that you learn said spells when you gain the spell slots, which you never do with emulate class feature.

There is a solution though: Runestaves and knowstones. You don't get that theoretical "access to every spell ever", but really, you don't NEED access to every spell ever, just a handful of powerful 9ths will do you fine.

Imho "Sorcerer Spells Known" is a variable class feature, but it's still a class feature.
It's the same as a monk or ranger doing their feat choices, the selected feats become class features.

If "Sorcerer Spells Known" wouldn't be a class feature, things like Arcane Fusion wouldn't exist. As such, knowing a specific spell is a class feature of a spontaneous caster (btw, the Rod of Absorbtion does work with emulating any spontaneous casting class. I just forgot to mention it).

Emulating prepared casters sadly doesn't work. Because preparing is the use of the class feature and prepared (the requirement for the Rod) is a status/value on your current statblock (basically an effect on you). And that can't be emulated.

But the class feature selections are imho part of emulating a class feature. Just like you can emulate Sneak Attack of variable levels according to your UMD roll, your spells known also scale according to your roll.

And since the UMD roll can be reset with each new activation, you can pick other spells or even another spontaneous casting class for each activation/emulation anew.

It's one of the "broken" aspects of UMD by RAW (from a balance point of view). And I don't really advertise it as play advice. But if you should play a T3 or below class in a group full of optimized T1 and T2 characters, it might be a good solution for a "mundane" build to rely on full RAW UMD abuse. It really depends on the situation here imho.
A good UMD build can compete with T2 and even T1 depending on the optimization grade. As such, imho it's a good tool to balance mundane characters in a otherwise highly magical group. On the other hand, a DM can always intervene if it would start to become a problem, like he can and should do with any kind of problematic ability (ab)use.

[redking]

It's one of the "broken" aspects of UMD by RAW (from a balance point of view).


It's not written anywhere that you can do what you say UMD can do, so it's not rules as written.

[AvatarVecna]

Imho "Sorcerer Spells Known" is a variable class feature, but it's still a class feature.
It's the same as a monk or ranger doing their feat choices, the selected feats become class features.

Opinion detected, RAW argument discarded.

Additionally, full RAW quote:


Emulate a Class Feature
Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

If a magic item only lets you cast a built-in spell if you have 3d6 Sneak Attack (which gets applied to the spell damage), UMD will let you pretend to have Sneak Attack for the purposes of activating the spell. But you don't get extra damage on the spell, because you don't have extra sneak attack damage, you're only pretending to for the purpose of activation and nothing else.


A running total of absorbed (and used) spell levels should be kept. The wielder of the rod can use captured spell energy to cast any spell she has prepared, without expending the preparation itself. The only restrictions are that the levels of spell energy stored in the rod must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell the wielder wants to cast, that any material components required for the spell be present, and that the rod be in hand when casting. For casters such as bards or sorcerers who do not prepare spells, the rod’s energy can be used to cast any spell of the appropriate level or levels that they know.

This does not read to me like "if you don't have spellcasting, you aren't allowed to activate a rod of absorption". There is nothing barring a commoner from activating this use of the rod, it just wouldn't do anything. But also, even if you do wanna read it that way, where having the class feature "Spells Known" is a requirement of using the item, UMD lets you pretend to have the class feature sure. But in the same way it doesn't actually give Sneak Attack when you fake that feature, it doesn't actually give you any spells known either.

Congratulations! You have pretended to be a sorcerer so hard that you can activate a Rod Of Absorption. You may use the stored spell energy to cast any spell you know? Oh what's that, you don't know any spells, you just pretend like you know spells? Well then you can use the Rod to cast any of the zero spells you know. Try not to spend all those charges at once.

[Gruftzwerg]

Opinion detected, RAW argument discarded.
Just because I tried to express my thoughts in a civilized manner doesn't let you ignore the underlying argument.



Additionally, full RAW quote:



If a magic item only lets you cast a built-in spell if you have 3d6 Sneak Attack (which gets applied to the spell damage), UMD will let you pretend to have Sneak Attack for the purposes of activating the spell. But you don't get extra damage on the spell, because you don't have extra sneak attack damage, you're only pretending to for the purpose of activation and nothing else.



This does not read to me like "if you don't have spellcasting, you aren't allowed to activate a rod of absorption". There is nothing barring a commoner from activating this use of the rod, it just wouldn't do anything. But also, even if you do wanna read it that way, where having the class feature "Spells Known" is a requirement of using the item, UMD lets you pretend to have the class feature sure. But in the same way it doesn't actually give Sneak Attack when you fake that feature, it doesn't actually give you any spells known either.

Congratulations! You have pretended to be a sorcerer so hard that you can activate a Rod Of Absorption. You may use the stored spell energy to cast any spell you know? Oh what's that, you don't know any spells, you just pretend like you know spells? Well then you can use the Rod to cast any of the zero spells you know. Try not to spend all those charges at once.

The PHB gives an example where the use of Turn Undead is emulated. The item works as if the ability was used.

The same here. The Rod work as if you know the spell and as if you would had cast the spell. Nothing limits you to sole emulate "knowing the spell". You can also emulate to "cast a spell", since that is a part of the very same class feature we are emulating here.
"Casting the spell" is also part of the requirement here to "use the Rod of Absorption", thus it is a valid target for UMD. The Rod is producing the effect based on the emulated spell known and the emulated cast of it.

Works as intended...
(I hope that I may make a joke about the broken state of UMD and that this doesn't automatically mean that you may ignore my entire arguments :smallwink: )

[Crake]

If "Sorcerer Spells Known" wouldn't be a class feature, things like Arcane Fusion wouldn't exist. As such, knowing a specific spell is a class feature of a spontaneous caster (btw, the Rod of Absorbtion does work with emulating any spontaneous casting class. I just forgot to mention it).

Eh, I don't really buy it. The rod allows you to expend the energy to cast a spell you know, it doesn't have the knowledge of the spell within in, and neither do you, so there's no logical place for this information to be coming from.

As I said though, it's easily fixable by just utilizing a runestaff or knowstones, which both grant the ability to cast new spells, but don't provide the spell slots, so in theory, you could use a rod of absorption, which you charge with your warlock SLAs, runestaves, and knowstones to completely emulate being a spontaneous caster. Bonus points if you get ancestral relic for your runestaff and effectively give yourself a list of prepared spells through the use of the runestaff.

Only issue is that the rods have only 50 charges, so you're literally paying 1000g per spell level. At that point you're honestly probably better off just buying a bunch of scrolls instead.

[Quertus]

The PHB gives an example where the use of Turn Undead is emulated. The item works as if the ability was used.


there's no logical place for this information to be coming from.

As I said though, it's easily fixable by just utilizing a runestaff or knowstones, which both grant the ability to cast new spells, but don't provide the spell slots

The Paladin example is like replacing a “has battery” class feature with a potato battery… minus the potato… and it still working. “Logic” has, IMO, long since left the building. But, happily, the explicitly exemplified but illogical part isn’t what’s being disagreed about. So, just how expensive are high-level knowstones?

(Granted, this whole plan seems expensive as a method for characters capped at 7th to use for continuing adventuring.)

[Crake]

The Paladin example is like replacing a “has battery” class feature with a potato battery… minus the potato… and it still working. “Logic” has, IMO, long since left the building. But, happily, the explicitly exemplified but illogical part isn’t what’s being disagreed about. So, just how expensive are high-level knowstones?

(Granted, this whole plan seems expensive as a method for characters capped at 7th to use for continuing adventuring.)

Knowstones themselves would require a UMD check to use, since you need to emulate having the spell on your spell list in the first place to learn it. Their pricing is spell level squared x1000gp, so knowing a 9th level spell would cost you 81,000gp.

Runestaves are significantly cheaper. But limit your daily casts to a maximum of 3, but can be as low as 1. If you used ancestral relic for a runestaff, you could in theory change it every day, effectively making it a prepared caster spell list.

[Gruftzwerg]

Eh, I don't really buy it. The rod allows you to expend the energy to cast a spell you know, it doesn't have the knowledge of the spell within in, and neither do you, so there's no logical place for this information to be coming from.

As I said though, it's easily fixable by just utilizing a runestaff or knowstones, which both grant the ability to cast new spells, but don't provide the spell slots, so in theory, you could use a rod of absorption, which you charge with your warlock SLAs, runestaves, and knowstones to completely emulate being a spontaneous caster. Bonus points if you get ancestral relic for your runestaff and effectively give yourself a list of prepared spells through the use of the runestaff.

Only issue is that the rods have only 50 charges, so you're literally paying 1000g per spell level. At that point you're honestly probably better off just buying a bunch of scrolls instead.

You need to cast the spell that you ("pretend to") know via the Rod of Absorption to activate it.
It's part of its activation and thus a legal target for UMD to emulate as class feature. And it's the rod that releases the magic, not you.

It's the same as with the Turn Undead example in the PHB. The UMD user has no TU ability and ain't using the ability for real. He just pretends to have the TU ability and pretends to use it for the activation.

So why should the Rod of Ab. behave differently here? It needs the (effective) use of a class ability to activate it.
Just because you are faking the activation doesn't stop the item from releasing the magic effect accordingly.

While it might "feel" cheesy, it's simple UMD as intended without any cheesy interpretations. Just regular UMD use.
The cheesy part here is the item not UMD. (Except the fact that you may consider UMD itself to be "broken" from a balance point of view, that's a topic for its own).

[Crake]

It's the same as with the Turn Undead example in the PHB. The UMD user has no TU ability and ain't using the ability for real. He just pretends to have the TU ability and pretends to use it for the activation.

I think most people generally agree that the turn undead example in the phb is a disfunctional example. If you had say, a nightstick, that could provide turn undead uses, and you had the theoretical item in the phb example, and used them in tandem for the power source and the effect, it could work.

Likewise, for the rod, you need a source of power (the rod) and a source of the effect (runestaff or knowstone).

Otherwise, if we go with your line of logic, you can just use runestaves to pump out spells DAILY for free rather than having to be limited to a 50 charge rod of absorption.

[Quertus]

I think most people generally agree that the turn undead example in the phb is a disfunctional example. If you had say, a nightstick, that could provide turn undead uses, and you had the theoretical item in the phb example, and used them in tandem for the power source and the effect, it could work.

Likewise, for the rod, you need a source of power (the rod) and a source of the effect (runestaff or knowstone).

Otherwise, if we go with your line of logic, you can just use runestaves to pump out spells DAILY for free rather than having to be limited to a 50 charge rod of absorption.

I don’t think “dysfunctional” is the word for it. “A high-OP Rogue who cares about magic can out-magic a low-OP Wizard” seems to parallel nicely “A high-OP Cleric who cares about fighting can out-fight a low-OP Fighter”. And all they really say is “high-OP >> low-OP”.

Regardless, I can’t really see a way for the Rogue to power the Knowstone via a Rod of Absorption that wouldn’t also allow them to do so with the “potatoless Potato battery”; ie, to do so without said Rod. If I’m not careful, I might construct an argument that says they can know the time by using UMD to power the clock they don’t have with the potato they don’t have, which is why I’m trying to just listen to others’ explanations.

[Crake]

Regardless, I can’t really see a way for the Rogue to power the Knowstone via a Rod of Absorption that wouldn’t also allow them to do so with the “potatoless Potato battery”; ie, to do so without said Rod. If I’m not careful, I might construct an argument that says they can know the time by using UMD to power the clock they don’t have with the potato they don’t have, which is why I’m trying to just listen to others’ explanations.

To understand it, you need to accept the basic premise that there’s two requirements to cast a spell as a spontaneous caster: knowing the spell, and having an available spell slot.

The rod of absorption can act as a stand in for the spell slots, but does not provide any capacity for spell knowledge, while the knowstone provides spell knowledge, but does not provide the spellslots to cast with. Thus, only in conjunction do they allow a spell to be cast.

Knowstones do nothing beyond convey spell knowledge, there is no case where you could UMD one to cast a spell without some means of providing the spellslots.

[icefractal]

Knowstones no, but a Runestaff would - if you're treating the "spending imaginary Turn Undead to power an item" example as valid:
"By expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or lower from the runestaff’s list, as long as that spell also appears on the wielder’s class spell list."

Incidentally, that example is especially weird because no such item (which costs Turn Undead uses to activate) even exists, AFAIK. So it's opening a huge can of worms in order to answer a question that nobody asked. :smalltongue:

Using a Rod of Absorption by emulating knowing specific spells is a case I'm not sure about. It comes down to "can you use UMD to emulate things at your discretion (limited to the list of what it can emulate), or can it only emulate the specific requirements for the item you're currently using it with"?

[Crake]

Knowstones no, but a Runestaff would - if you're treating the "spending imaginary Turn Undead to power an item" example as valid:
"By expending a prepared arcane spell or arcane spell slot, the wielder can cast a spell of the same level or lower from the runestaff’s list, as long as that spell also appears on the wielder’s class spell list."

Incidentally, that example is especially weird because no such item (which costs Turn Undead uses to activate) even exists, AFAIK. So it's opening a huge can of worms in order to answer a question that nobody asked. :smalltongue:

Right, but thats kinda my point. Either you see the example as allowing you to spend resources you dont have, in which case runestaves are just the better option over a rod of absorption, or you see the example as disfunctional, and you need either runestaves or knowstones in conjunction with a rod of absorption to cast spells.

Theres no point where a rod of absorption alone is the best option, unless you ABSOLUTELY NEED theoretical complete access to the entirety of the 3.5 spell list, when really, a handful of various high level spells will cover 99% of situations.

[Quertus]

Right, but thats kinda my point. Either you see the example as allowing you to spend resources you dont have, in which case runestaves are just the better option over a rod of absorption, or you see the example as disfunctional, and you need either runestaves or knowstones in conjunction with a rod of absorption to cast spells.

Theres no point where a rod of absorption alone is the best option, unless you ABSOLUTELY NEED theoretical complete access to the entirety of the 3.5 spell list, when really, a handful of various high level spells will cover 99% of situations.

Ah, so you do see a valid use case. And, now that you’ve said that, I’ll see your use case and raise you my own personal insanity: is there any reason why, if you can UMD a Rod of Absorption to create/cast any spell published in 3e, that you couldn’t similarly use it to create/cast any/every spell *not* published in 3e? To not just cast Wall of Salt, but also Wall of Pepper, and Wall of Hot Peppers, and Wall of Crawling Maggots, and Wall of Pouncing Kittens, depending on the situation? Is there any reason why, any spell which *could* be researched wouldn’t be a valid option for your UMD Rod tech?

I mean, I’m not sure how useful it would really be in practice (especially compared with the expense), but it certainly sounds like a fun idea.

[Crake]

Ah, so you do see a valid use case. And, now that you’ve said that, I’ll see your use case and raise you my own personal insanity: is there any reason why, if you can UMD a Rod of Absorption to create/cast any spell published in 3e, that you couldn’t similarly use it to create/cast any/every spell *not* published in 3e? To not just cast Wall of Salt, but also Wall of Pepper, and Wall of Hot Peppers, and Wall of Crawling Maggots, and Wall of Pouncing Kittens, depending on the situation? Is there any reason why, any spell which *could* be researched wouldn’t be a valid option for your UMD Rod tech?

I mean, I’m not sure how useful it would really be in practice (especially compared with the expense), but it certainly sounds like a fun idea.

Well, I was arguing no use case because I cant be bothered arguing the UMD issue. As I said, I ascribe to the notion that you need a source for both power and effect to successfully perform magic like this, and rod of absorption only provides the power, not the effect. I think thats just a difference of opinion though, and I dont expect to change anyones mind about it.

[Gruftzwerg]

I think most people generally agree that the turn undead example in the phb is a disfunctional example. If you had say, a nightstick, that could provide turn undead uses, and you had the theoretical item in the phb example, and used them in tandem for the power source and the effect, it could work.

Likewise, for the rod, you need a source of power (the rod) and a source of the effect (runestaff or knowstone).

Otherwise, if we go with your line of logic, you can just use runestaves to pump out spells DAILY for free rather than having to be limited to a 50 charge rod of absorption.

(I didn't quote every post, but I did read em)

1)
Imho most people have a hard time to understand the limitation and exception set to "use class ability":

We have a general statement:

This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class.

Followed immediately by a specific exception:

It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

Which means, "emulating the use of the target ability for activation" is legal. And as we can see with alignment and race specific items, they work accordingly to the emulated stuff.
This doesn't stop the item's effect to give you a similar; enhanced; or identical effect as the class ability, if that is what the items effect does like in the case of the Rod of Absorption. And since the "effect" of the rod doesn't require you to expend spell slots, a UMD user can use the item's effect without causing dysfunctions.


2)
You still spend the rod's charges as normal. UMD lets you emulate the class feature (and eventual used class resources), but not the features of the "rod" (and neither the resources of the rod).

3)
Sure Runestaves are another nice option for UMD users. But the Rod of Absorbtion still superior in its effect. The sole downside is that it is kinda an expensive "consumable" item (like a wand with charges).
The defensive power shouldn't be ignored either. And having access to effectively all spells without any further actions needed (to draw the right runestaff/wand/scroll/...) is another point that makes it better than a collection of items to do the same thing. If you wanna be as flexible as the Rod of Absorption, you need to spend a lot of money.

___________________

4) Wand of "Sanctum Spell: Arcane Fusion"
This is the lil brother of the Rod of Absorption. The problem here is to find a crafter for this (or to be able to do it yourself). But once you get it, you have a wand that gives you a 1st lvl and 1-4th sorcerer spell on each activation.

Imho these two items work really well together. The wand is better at action economy and cheaper, while the rod is for the higher lvl stuff that you might occasionally need. My recent Croesus the Merchant Prince (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?651590-Croesus-the-Merchant-Prince-a-quot-PAY2WIN-quot-build-guide)build did abuse this. I mean, UMD is a skill with high gold costs. So what is better than a UMD build with the focus on gold generation?^^

[Crake]

(I didn't quote every post, but I did read em)

1)
Imho most people have a hard time to understand the limitation and exception set to "use class ability":

We have a general statement:


Followed immediately by a specific exception:


Which means, "emulating the use of the target ability for activation" is legal. And as we can see with alignment and race specific items, they work accordingly to the emulated stuff.
This doesn't stop the item's effect to give you a similar; enhanced; or identical effect as the class ability, if that is what the items effect does like in the case of the Rod of Absorption. And since the "effect" of the rod doesn't require you to expend spell slots, a UMD user can use the item's effect without causing dysfunctions.


2)
You still spend the rod's charges as normal. UMD lets you emulate the class feature (and eventual used class resources), but not the features of the "rod" (and neither the resources of the rod).

3)
Sure Runestaves are another nice option for UMD users. But the Rod of Absorbtion still superior in its effect. The sole downside is that it is kinda an expensive "consumable" item (like a wand with charges).
The defensive power shouldn't be ignored either. And having access to effectively all spells without any further actions needed (to draw the right runestaff/wand/scroll/...) is another point that makes it better than a collection of items to do the same thing. If you wanna be as flexible as the Rod of Absorption, you need to spend a lot of money.

___________________

4) Wand of "Sanctum Spell: Arcane Fusion"
This is the lil brother of the Rod of Absorption. The problem here is to find a crafter for this (or to be able to do it yourself). But once you get it, you have a wand that gives you a 1st lvl and 1-4th sorcerer spell on each activation.

Imho these two items work really well together. The wand is better at action economy and cheaper, while the rod is for the higher lvl stuff that you might occasionally need. My recent Croesus the Merchant Prince (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?651590-Croesus-the-Merchant-Prince-a-quot-PAY2WIN-quot-build-guide)build did abuse this. I mean, UMD is a skill with high gold costs. So what is better than a UMD build with the focus on gold generation?^^

You havent done much to really change my opinion on whether the rod of absorption trick works in the first place. Runestaves at least more closely match the example in the phb, where they provide the effect, and the “power source” is being emulated, but I dont buy that UMD gives you a quantum state of universal knowledge.

The arcane fusion wand is even less plausible, because you’ve now gone from UMDing the item, to UMDing the spell effect.

[Gruftzwerg]

You havent done much to really change my opinion on whether the rod of absorption trick works in the first place. Runestaves at least more closely match the example in the phb, where they provide the effect, and the “power source” is being emulated, but I dont buy that UMD gives you a quantum state of universal knowledge.

The arcane fusion wand is even less plausible, because you’ve now gone from UMDing the item, to UMDing the spell effect.

UMD doesn't give "you a quantum state of universal knowledge".
It's more like "pretending to have a quantum state of universal knowledge" for activating magic items.

Think about it. What does UMD do? It lets you pretend to have all the magical knowledge and abilities needed to "activate magic items".
Imho this is a perfect match for "pretending to have a quantum state of universal knowledge".
Yes, the knowledge you pretend to have for activating items is gigantic. But you couldn't explain anything of what you are actually doing there to activate the item. You couldn't teach anyone the "regular activation" of the item. You could at best teach others how you pretend to know and how your activation trick works (UMD).


And I don't see any rule base that would deny you to UMD a wand's "effect". The spells effect is part of the wand's effect. Just because the spell's effect is more specific than the general wand's effect doesn't stop it being from being part of the wand's effect. Sorry but you are seeing restrictions/dysfunctions that aren't there. Or can you provide any rules for this assumption?
Imho as long as it is part of the items effect, it is legal for UMD (ab)use and behaves according to the emulated stats provided. I don't see any problems by RAW.
Sure it has very cheesy applications, but that is the broken nature of UMD. Take a Alter Self wand and pretend to be a "dragon". While that is "broken" from a common sense of view, it is RAW. It's the same level of stupidity as "Healing by Drowning", which is also RAW but broken from a common sense point of view (unless you are in a Hollywood movie^^).

[Crake]

UMD doesn't give "you a quantum state of universal knowledge".
It's more like "pretending to have a quantum state of universal knowledge" for activating magic items.

Think about it. What does UMD do? It lets you pretend to have all the magical knowledge and abilities needed to "activate magic items".
Imho this is a perfect match for "pretending to have a quantum state of universal knowledge".
Yes, the knowledge you pretend to have for activating items is gigantic. But you couldn't explain anything of what you are actually doing there to activate the item. You couldn't teach anyone the "regular activation" of the item. You could at best teach others how you pretend to know and how your activation trick works (UMD).


And I don't see any rule base that would deny you to UMD a wand's "effect". The spells effect is part of the wand's effect. Just because the spell's effect is more specific than the general wand's effect doesn't stop it being from being part of the wand's effect. Sorry but you are seeing restrictions/dysfunctions that aren't there. Or can you provide any rules for this assumption?
Imho as long as it is part of the items effect, it is legal for UMD (ab)use and behaves according to the emulated stats provided. I don't see any problems by RAW.
Sure it has very cheesy applications, but that is the broken nature of UMD. Take a Alter Self wand and pretend to be a "dragon". While that is "broken" from a common sense of view, it is RAW. It's the same level of stupidity as "Healing by Drowning", which is also RAW but broken from a common sense point of view (unless you are in a Hollywood movie^^).

I think the issue is youre conflating “activating an item” and “adjudicating the effect of the item”, and thats where the difference of opinion lies.

By your logic, I could use a pearl of power to recover a spell slot I hadn't prepared, of any spell in existence, if I provided a sufficient UMD check, because "preparing spells" is a class feature.

Just because you can activate an item, doesn't mean you can necessarily utilize it's effect if you lack the ability to harness whatever it is that it's producing.

[ericgrau]

The main area they'll be lacking is offensive magic, since magic items all have terrible DCs and usually bad CL (though you might be able to just buy them at higher level) and if they can't boost the CL of the items, dispels will be a problem.

There are plenty of great offensive spells not dependent on DC or CL. Some of the best ones in fact. Including a lot of the battlefield control. And actually staffs let you use your mental ability score if it means a higher DC.

Dispels are pretty uncommon and even when they do happen they eat an enemy turn for only a portion of the spells. Against 1 spell per 40' diameter area it's always a net loss for the enemy, unless it's a weaker foe casting it.

Mostly it's an issue of item spells not being affordable until much higher level than when a caster first gets them. But eventually even 9th level spells get easy to spam as epic treasure greatly outpaces spending. Even on consumables like staffs. I had an epic character that "abused" (it's an intended strat) it heavily with only 1 level in wizard. He had more utility than the party full casters mostly because they didn't put in the prep time. On top of very good combat magic. The full casters still had better epic degree spell power.

[Gruftzwerg]

I think the issue is youre conflating “activating an item” and “adjudicating the effect of the item”, and thats where the difference of opinion lies.

By your logic, I could use a pearl of power to recover a spell slot I hadn't prepared, of any spell in existence, if I provided a sufficient UMD check, because "preparing spells" is a class feature.

Nope that is not my logic here.
"Preparing spells is a class feature" yes. But that is not the activation requirement here:


..to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast.
The requirements here is that "a prepared spell was already cast".

UMD can't emulate "prepared spells" nor "that you already used it before".
Because "Prepared Spells" is a status effect/values on you. You can pretend to "prepare spells", but you can't pretend to have "spells prepared". These are different things. UMD sole allows you to emulate the use of an ability, and doesn't allow to emulate the resulting status effect changes

This is why the Rod of Absorption sole works with emulating spontaneous caster spells when used by an UMD character. Because "Spells Known" is part of the "Spells:" ability we are emulating. We emulate the spell selection of a Sorcerer of X.th lvl as example. Those are part of the class ability and thus legal for emulation.



Just because you can activate an item, doesn't mean you can necessarily utilize it's effect if you lack the ability to harness whatever it is that it's producing.

While I agree with this statement on a general base, I don't see it affecting the current debate.

[Crake]

Nope that is not my logic here.
"Preparing spells is a class feature" yes. But that is not the activation requirement here:


The requirements here is that "a prepared spell was already cast".

UMD can't emulate "prepared spells" nor "that you already used it before".
Because "Prepared Spells" is a status effect/values on you. You can pretend to "prepare spells", but you can't pretend to have "spells prepared". These are different things. UMD sole allows you to emulate the use of an ability, and doesn't allow to emulate the resulting status effect changes

This is why the Rod of Absorption sole works with emulating spontaneous caster spells when used by an UMD character. Because "Spells Known" is part of the "Spells:" ability we are emulating. We emulate the spell selection of a Sorcerer of X.th lvl as example. Those are part of the class ability and thus legal for emulation.




While I agree with this statement on a general base, I don't see it affecting the current debate.

I dunno, sounds like a whole lot of mental gymnastics to me.

Knowing a specific spell from your spells known class feature for a rod of absorption

Vs

Having had a specific spell prepared from your list of spells for a pearl of power

Vs

Having had a spell slot to recover from your spontaneous spell slots for a memento magicka.

They’re all second order effects beyond just activating the magic item.

[Gruftzwerg]

I dunno, sounds like a whole lot of mental gymnastics to me.

Knowing a specific spell from your spells known class feature for a rod of absorption

Vs

Having had a specific spell prepared from your list of spells for a pearl of power

Vs

Having had a spell slot to recover from your spontaneous spell slots for a memento magicka.

They’re all second order effects beyond just activating the magic item.

Knowing a spell is the passive use the "spells" class feature.
Casting a spell is the active use of the "spells" class feature
Preparation of your daily spells is also the use of the "spells" class feature.

But a "prepared spell" is the result of using the ability. (using the ability would be preparing the spell as said)
edit: It's a variable in your status bar. Not the active use of the ability.

To give you maybe a more obvious example:

Imagine 2 different items:
A) e.g +1d6 Sneak Attack dmg, but requires you to have Sneak Attack
B) requires you "to have hit something with Sneak Attack dmg" to apply a bleed

UMD can emulate A but not B.

You can emulate "spells known", "preparing a spell" and "casting a spell", but not to have "prepared spells" nor "expended spells(slots), since those are the resulting (after-) effects of the use.

[Crake]

Knowing a spell is the passive use the "spells" class feature.
Casting a spell is the active use of the "spells" class feature
Preparation of your daily spells is also the use of the "spells" class feature.

But a "prepared spell" is the result of using the ability. (using the ability would be preparing the spell as said)
edit: It's a variable in your status bar. Not the active use of the ability.

To give you maybe a more obvious example:

Imagine 2 different items:
A) e.g +1d6 Sneak Attack dmg, but requires you to have Sneak Attack
B) requires you "to have hit something with Sneak Attack dmg" to apply a bleed

UMD can emulate A but not B.

You can emulate "spells known", "preparing a spell" and "casting a spell", but not to have "prepared spells" nor "expended spells(slots), since those are the resulting (after-) effects of the use.

Your equivalent here is using A, but saying "Since I can emulate having 9d6 sneak attack, then the item gives me 10d6+2 sneak attack".

Again, the difference is you're conflating activating the item with adjudicating it's effects.

Sure, you can activate the rod of absorption, but that's where the emulation ability of UMD ends. Once the item is activated, you gain the ability to expend the rod's power, but you still don't actually know any spells to expend that power with. The item has been activated, but you gain no benefit from the effect.

[NichG]

Conditions for using an item are not the same as conditions governing its targetting.

[Gruftzwerg]

Your equivalent here is using A, but saying "Since I can emulate having 9d6 sneak attack, then the item gives me 10d6+2 sneak attack".

Again, the difference is you're conflating activating the item with adjudicating it's effects.

Sure, you can activate the rod of absorption, but that's where the emulation ability of UMD ends. Once the item is activated, you gain the ability to expend the rod's power, but you still don't actually know any spells to expend that power with. The item has been activated, but you gain no benefit from the effect.

The entire purpose of UMD is to "adjudicate an item's effects according to the activation".


You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

The second sentence makes clear that you don't just activate but also "use the magic item" as if you had/were "X".

As said, how else you wanna make alignment or race rolls for UMD gonna work if your emulation doesn't confer to the magic items effect.

To activate the Rod of Absorption you need to emulate "knowing the spell" and "casting it". Both part of the "Spells:" ability. And the item's effect has to behave accordingly to the emulated stuff. Otherwise you make UMD dysfunctional (see alignment and race emulation). And what does the item do? It releases the effect of the spell "you did (effectively) cast as activation", without you expending spellslots.
The item produces a similar effect to the ability it requires to activate (which is a very rare thing for a magic item's effect btw). The sole difference is that the items effect doesn't require you to expend spell slots for the spell's effect to take place.


Regarding the the Sneak Attack item..
It depends on the explicit effect of the item if it gives you the "stacked results" or not (! don't mix this up with regular stacking here !). Let's take the "Assassination" enhancement as real example here and see what happens:

An assassination weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of damage against a foe who is flat-footed or otherwise denied a Dexterity bonus to AC, or who is flanked. If the wielder deals sneak attack damage from other sources, such as levels in the rogue class, the extra damage stacks.

In addition, the weapon seems to eagerly drink in poison. The wielder never risks poisoning herself when applying poison to an assassination weapon, and the save DC of any poison applied to the weapon increases by an amount equal to the weapon's enhancement bonus. (Thus, a +1 assassination dagger increases the DC of any applied poison by 1, while a +3 assassination dagger increases the DC by 3.)

While the text implies stacking here, it sadly doesn't help UMD users. Because the effect of the item remains +1d6 sneak attack dmg. It never gives you 10d6 sneak attack dmg, no matter how high your Sneak Attack dmg is. It sole adds an extra +1d6 dmg.

Compare it with a Monk's Belt/Tattoo. These item ask for you effective lvl in a class skill and give you the effective value of a character with X additional lvls.
The Monk's Belt/Tattoo doesn't add to your dmg. It's sets your Unarmed Strike dmg to a certain value a monk of X.th lvl has. Same with the AC bonus. You get the bonus to AC as a X.th lvl monk.

The Assassination weapon sole adds to a value (which you are sole emulating for activation and may not otherwise use). It doesn't give you the Sneak Attack ability of a X.th lvl rogue, like a Monk's Tattoo/Belt does.

An items effect needs to be worded in a very specific way to allow (lets call em) UMD "exploits". It's not as simple as it may look at first glance to find exploitable items for UMD.

[Crake]

The entire purpose of UMD is to "adjudicate an item's effects according to the activation".



The second sentence makes clear that you don't just activate but also "use the magic item" as if you had/were "X".

As said, how else you wanna make alignment or race rolls for UMD gonna work if your emulation doesn't confer to the magic items effect.

To activate the Rod of Absorption you need to emulate "knowing the spell" and "casting it". Both part of the "Spells:" ability. And the item's effect has to behave accordingly to the emulated stuff. Otherwise you make UMD dysfunctional (see alignment and race emulation). And what does the item do? It releases the effect of the spell "you did (effectively) cast as activation", without you expending spellslots.
The item produces a similar effect to the ability it requires to activate (which is a very rare thing for a magic item's effect btw). The sole difference is that the items effect doesn't require you to expend spell slots for the spell's effect to take place.


Regarding the the Sneak Attack item..
It depends on the explicit effect of the item if it gives you the "stacked results" or not (! don't mix this up with regular stacking here !). Let's take the "Assassination" enhancement as real example here and see what happens:


While the text implies stacking here, it sadly doesn't help UMD users. Because the effect of the item remains +1d6 sneak attack dmg. It never gives you 10d6 sneak attack dmg, no matter how high your Sneak Attack dmg is. It sole adds an extra +1d6 dmg.

Compare it with a Monk's Belt/Tattoo. These item ask for you effective lvl in a class skill and give you the effective value of a character with X additional lvls.
The Monk's Belt/Tattoo doesn't add to your dmg. It's sets your Unarmed Strike dmg to a certain value a monk of X.th lvl has. Same with the AC bonus. You get the bonus to AC as a X.th lvl monk.

The Assassination weapon sole adds to a value (which you are sole emulating for activation and may not otherwise use). It doesn't give you the Sneak Attack ability of a X.th lvl rogue, like a Monk's Tattoo/Belt does.

An items effect needs to be worded in a very specific way to allow (lets call em) UMD "exploits". It's not as simple as it may look at first glance to find exploitable items for UMD.

You're cherry picking quotes from UMD:


Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.

Again, you're conflating activation with adjudication of the effect.

[Gruftzwerg]

You're cherry picking quotes from UMD:



Again, you're conflating activation with adjudication of the effect.

The activation of the Rod of Absorption is to cast a spell which we fake. The effect of the item is to release the spells effect (that was used for the activation) without you spending any spell slots and the item instead paying in charges.


You are repeating "Again, you're conflating activation with adjudication of the effect.".
How do alignment and race emulation work in your opinion?

How does an evil character wield a holy weapon?

It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded.
If the effect of the item doesn't work accordingly to the fake activation, your interpretation causes dysfunctions.
Show a functional interpretation of UMD that doesn't cause dysfunctions and I will consider that I'm just reading it as cheesy as possible. But if you can't present a functional UMD interpretation, you should consider that maybe I am right on this.

So, how do alignment weapons work for you "without adjudication of the effect"?

How do you emulate a race and get the stuff for the race if you sole activate the item?

Or how does the PHB example work? You faked the activation, but the item still lacks the positive/negative energy that is commonly released with Turn Undead. How does it work?
I guess the answer will be that the example is dysfunctional. Sorry but my interpretation doesn't cause any dysfunctions here.

I have a fully functional UMD interpretation and don't need to assume dysfunctional PHB examples. How does your interpretation look in direct comprehension? Can you also present a fully functional interpretation?

[Crake]

The activation of the Rod of Absorption is to cast a spell which we fake. The effect of the item is to release the spells effect (that was used for the activation) without you spending any spell slots and the item instead paying in charges.


You are repeating "Again, you're conflating activation with adjudication of the effect.".
How do alignment and race emulation work in your opinion?

How does an evil character wield a holy weapon?

If the effect of the item doesn't work accordingly to the fake activation, your interpretation causes dysfunctions.
Show a functional interpretation of UMD that doesn't cause dysfunctions and I will consider that I'm just reading it as cheesy as possible. But if you can't present a functional UMD interpretation, you should consider that maybe I am right on this.

So, how do alignment weapons work for you "without adjudication of the effect"?

How do you emulate a race and get the stuff for the race if you sole activate the item?

Or how does the PHB example work? You faked the activation, but the item still lacks the positive/negative energy that is commonly released with Turn Undead. How does it work?
I guess the answer will be that the example is dysfunctional. Sorry but my interpretation doesn't cause any dysfunctions here.

I have a fully functional UMD interpretation and don't need to assume dysfunctional PHB examples. How does your interpretation look in direct comprehension? Can you also present a fully functional interpretation?

You'll note that each of those functions of UMD are written differently: Alignment says "Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice.", while racial emulation says "You can use such an item as if you were a race of your choice.". Notice how that's different to the class feature emulation which specifies only activating an item.

Class feature emulation's scope ends completely at allowing you to activate an item that you would otherwise not be capable of activating. When it comes to the effect of the activation, it has no authority

[Gruftzwerg]

You'll note that each of those functions of UMD are written differently: Alignment says "Use Magic Device lets you use these items as if you were of an alignment of your choice.", while racial emulation says "You can use such an item as if you were a race of your choice.". Notice how that's different to the class feature emulation which specifies only activating an item.

Class feature emulation's scope ends completely at allowing you to activate an item that you would otherwise not be capable of activating. When it comes to the effect of the activation, it has no authority

Those written "functions" you talk about are just explanatory text to the general rule presented by UMD and its table.
Neither of those sections create any new rule. They sole explain the table that is attached to the general UMD rule:


Use Magic Device (Cha; Trained Only)

Use this skill to activate magic


Check

You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below.

All the rules you need to know for UMD are presented in this quote and its table.
Everything what follows is just explanatory text but ain't needed since no changes are made there compared to general UMD rules presented in "the quote and its table".

And the general UMD rules don't sole give you the permission to activate magic items, but to also "USE em as if you had XXX". So, unless you can present me a clear exception call out, the general rule to use magic items as if you had XXX stays. Or are you arguing that the "effect" is not part of "using the magic item"?

I know you have quoted:

This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class.
But there is no dysfunction to the general UMD rule that "lets you use magic items as if you had XXX".
Neither did the general rules ever give you the permission to "use class features of another class". As such, this is just explaining the obvious, and not creating any new rule.


The active use effect of the Rod of Absorption is a "Spell Completion" item like a scroll.
I don't see where you are seeing the problems here?
Why should I not be able to UMD it?

The "spell's effect" is part of the "magic item's effect". The source is still the magic item and thus legit for UMD.
I assume that you are trying to exclude the "spell's effect" from the "item's effect", but that is technically wrong and I don't see any rule base for it.

[Crake]

Those written "functions" you talk about are just explanatory text to the general rule presented by UMD and its table.
Neither of those sections create any new rule. They sole explain the table that is attached to the general UMD rule:



All the rules you need to know for UMD are presented in this quote and its table.
Everything what follows is just explanatory text but ain't needed since no changes are made there compared to general UMD rules presented in "the quote and its table".

And the general UMD rules don't sole give you the permission to activate magic items, but to also "USE em as if you had XXX". So, unless you can present me a clear exception call out, the general rule to use magic items as if you had XXX stays. Or are you arguing that the "effect" is not part of "using the magic item"?

I know you have quoted:

But there is no dysfunction to the general UMD rule that "lets you use magic items as if you had XXX".
Neither did the general rules ever give you the permission to "use class features of another class". As such, this is just explaining the obvious, and not creating any new rule.


The active use effect of the Rod of Absorption is a "Spell Completion" item like a scroll.
I don't see where you are seeing the problems here?
Why should I not be able to UMD it?

The "spell's effect" is part of the "magic item's effect". The source is still the magic item and thus legit for UMD.
I assume that you are trying to exclude the "spell's effect" from the "item's effect", but that is technically wrong and I don't see any rule base for it.

I don't think this conversation's going anywhere, you're not doing a particularly good job at convincing me, and I honestly have no desire to try and change your mind when you're clearly so invested in this ruling. I'm sure both of us have presented our cases well enough for an informed user to make their own decision on the matter.

[sreservoir]

In that e6 game it actually turned out to be a rate limiting step. Yes there are a handful of famously broken items that require big spells, but there's also stuff that has caster level limits but fairly low level spell requirements. In particular I think CL 12 was important since it gets you all the ioun stones as well as access to Forge Ring.

Indeed, although since the requirements are specified as "caster level" it's not necessarily that hard to qualify anyway. You get some happy accidents, like the duergar CL=2*HD SLAs giving them a much easier time qualifying for Craft Rod/Staff/Forge Ring (but not actually helping them with spell requirements).

[Gruftzwerg]

I don't think this conversation's going anywhere, you're not doing a particularly good job at convincing me, and I honestly have no desire to try and change your mind when you're clearly so invested in this ruling. I'm sure both of us have presented our cases well enough for an informed user to make their own decision on the matter.

I agree. You didn't try to provide a functional interpretation of the rules. And I don't feel that providing you with more arguments would help, if you keep dodging that your interpretation causes dysfunctions (imho). So I don't see any point in changing my mind either.
I guess case closed for now.

[Seward]

Others have said it pretty well. Wealthomancy is a big deal, quite effective and is a lot of why any campaign with a GM that is stingy with WBL fails in mid-high levels.

That said, your level 7 self will fail against some threats. Anything level dependent like Blasphemy will just crush you, and your tiny hitpoint pool and low base saves will also be problematic on defense. Offense WBL can handle, but if you get caught unprepared for a throwdown, really having passive defenses on par with actual higher level characters will be extremely challenging.