Can the Barblock be viable? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

ChaseC311

2023-02-02, 04:13 AM

I'm currently building a character for an upcoming text campaign. This campaigns been in purgatory since last year but things are moving again, and at a fast rate.

My first character idea was a satyr spirit guardian barbarian, but the concept was scrapped as satyrs don't exist in the setting

My second idea was a changeling melee lorehold tome warlock, a part of a character duo actually. But due to how long it took for the campaign to take off, the friend I was in the duo with unfortunately became unable to play in it due to conflicting schedules. Back to the drawing board

In the end I decided: **** it, why not both. I haven't played either class in ages, let's kill two birds with one stone: Enter the Barblock... Yeah I'm not sure how this is going to go down either. After reading through the class abilities, I have an idea in mind but I wanna run it through y'all to see if it'd be a good idea:

We're starting at level 4, and I decided to go with a Kalashtar Bear Totem Barbarian 3/Fiend Warlock 1 Multiclass.

Imagine a tall outlander who's normally on the verge of complete pacifism. He'll attack in self defense yes, but he's ultimately a gentle Giant... That's why his rage is flavored to be him asking his Quori to take over his body for him while he goes to his happy place. Cut to the Quori wailing on some kobolds.

At level 5 I'll go Barb 4 for the sentinel feat and for levels 6 and 7 I'll go up to Warlock 3 for the chain pact boon. After that I'll probably only go up to Warlock 5 with all other levels going into Barb 15 (It's unlikely we'd go to level 20 though)

Essentially the build idea I had in mind is this:

Round 1, cast armor of Agathys *before* raging and move into position

Beat the **** out of enemies on all subsequent turns

At level 5 I can take the Sentinel feat to make sure enemies don't just walk away from me and wallop on the backline as easily. All other ASIs will go into buffing stats because good god is this Multiclass MAD. One thing about this campaign is that warlocks are homebrewed to use intelligence instead of charisma for their spellcasting, subclass, and invocation abilities.

At level 7, the investment of the chain master and gift of the everliving ones invocation can aid me in several ways. IotCM allows me to utilize my bonus action in order to attack enemies, or if need be, myself in times where there's no other way to keep my rage provoked. And GotEO maximizes all healing coming towards me as long as my Familiars within 100 feet of me (plus Warlock 3 buffs my armor of Agathys and Dark ones Blessing abilities)

Essentially I'm trying to go for a reliable damage sponge character who benefits greatly from support and provides out of combat utility with spells (plus Eldritch blast in case the battlefields only enemies that are out of reach). Is it as optimal as a solo Barbarian? Probably not. But still, I think it'd be a fun idea.

kazaryu

2023-02-02, 04:38 AM

well, i am of the opinion that the answer to 'can X be viable' is basically always yes. But thats because my default assumption is that the game lethality/optimization standard is pretty average. And also that you're not actively trying to gimp your character. its hard in 5e to accidentally not build a viable character.

so, with that said, i think you'd probably be fine. your biggest worry (imo) is hitting character lvl 5 without having extra attack, and since you're a barb, you're not always going to be able to use spells to make up for it....unfortunately i can't think of a great way to address this off the top of my head.

Mastikator

2023-02-02, 04:48 AM

It could work but there's no synergy.

ChaseC311

2023-02-02, 05:28 AM

J-H

2023-02-02, 06:38 AM

The Barbarian DR will help you keep AoA up longer...but so would more caster levels so that you get more than 5 thp from it.
Goliath DR also helps with Armor of Agathys, if you're willing to not play a Kalastar.

THP from AoA won't stack with THP from reducing enemies to 0.

If you want to go more Warlock than Barbarian, you could go Bladelock and pick up Thirsting Blade (extra attack with pact weapon) instead of having to go Barb 5.

Aimeryan

2023-02-02, 06:38 AM

stoutstien

2023-02-02, 08:33 AM

The ancestral pact of chain lock is pretty solid thanks to gift of "yea I maximize all healing".

Warpiglet-7

2023-02-02, 08:41 AM

I have a warlock barbarian. He is a mountain dwarf who is blade pact. The demon
Axe has been driving him mad—-wants him to give into rage. Hence warlock 6 fiend patron (eldritch smite, improved pact weapon) and barbarian 2.

I did not plan it this way—-he was just going to be a warlock!

Damage mitigation from barbarian with dark ones gift is fun.

Reckless attack with greataxe means double chance to critical on a smite. Seems like plenty of synergy to me. If we have fewer encounters in a day, he wrecks house. My uncanny ability to roll 20s is a whole other thing…

I took great weapons master and my highest stat is a 16 and it does not matter.

Medium armor and shield vs. unarmored defense and shield OR go bonkers with 2 handed weapon…some days I have a sword of sharpness as a pact weapon. Other days the greataxe and no shield.

RogueJK

2023-02-02, 09:22 AM

Round 1, cast armor of Agathys *before* raging and move into position

Beat the **** out of enemies on all subsequent turns

That's not a great plan. Keep in mind that Rage ends at the beginning end of your turn if you haven't made an attack or taken damage since your last turn.

You didn't attack in Round 1, when your Rage started. So you're basically banking on needing to take damage sometime between the end of your 1st turn, otherwise your Rage ends at the end of your 1st turn and the Rage use is wasted.

To get around this, you'd need to cast AoA in Round 1, and then wait to Rage until the start of your 2nd turn before using your Action to Attack, and then continue attacking on subsequent turns. But then you're faced with either hanging back because your Rage Resistance hasn't kicked in yet and not accomplishing much in Round 1, or wading into melee anyway and just taking full damage without your Rage Resistance, thus lessening your AoA duration.

Either way you slice it, it's inefficient, unless you happen to be able to precast AoA prior to combat starting. AoA likely isn't worth spending that Action just for 5-10 Temp HP and 5-10 cold damage. You could be dealing a lot more than 5-10 damage using that Action to attack, while still being able to efficiently Rage in Round 1.

And while a little bit of Temp HP is nice, you could achieve a similar effect with something like Lizardfolk Hungry Jaws, Shifter transformation, or Goliath damage reduction without it using up your Action, and with being able to activate any of those even when Rage is running since they're not spellcasting. Or take the Fiendish Vigor invocation, and use it religiously outside of combat in order to head into every single combat with 8 Temp HP before you even begin. (Normally Fiendish Vigor isn't one of my top invocation picks, but the ability to spam it outside of combat to maximize the roll to get 8, combined with your Bear Rage effectively doubling that to 16 Temp HP, makes it worth considering in this specific build.)

Basically, AoA is still potentially worth taking as a spell known for occasional use, but only really worth using if you can pre-cast it before combat. Otherwise, if you can't precast it, just focus on the standard Barbarian Rage+Attacks, potentially supplemented by some alternative damage-mitigating ability.

In addition, Barbarian 4/Warlock 3 is a bad split. Get to Barbarian 5 ASAP for Extra Attack. You really will need that bump in damage output to stay competitive. Starting Barbarian 3/Warlock 1 is doable, but you'll want to get to Barbarian 5/Warlock 1 before you consider taking any other Warlock levels. Or just start out with Barbarian 5 alone, and then take a few Warlock levels.

Finally, if you're really going for out of combat utility from your Warlock levels as stated at the end of the OP (which is nice since Barbarians have very little), consider Pact of the Tome instead of Chain, and take the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation. You can still get a Fiendish Familiar via the Find Familiar spell, plus a bunch of other out of combat utility ritual spells on top of the couple of animal rituals a Totem Barbarian already gets. In addition, Tome Pact gets you 3 additional cantrips from any class, which you can use to grab out of combat utility cantrips. It'd make you a pretty solid "swiss army knife" caster outside of combat.

For example, a more efficient/effective build could look something like this:
Goliath Bear Totem Barbarian 5/Warlock 3
STR 15+1
DEX 13+1
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 9
CHA 14
ASIs: 18 STR, GWM, 20 STR, 16 CON
Fiend Patron, Pact of the Tome
Invocations: Book of Ancient Secrets, plus either Fiendish Vigor or something like Devil's Sight
Cantrips: Mage Hand, Message, Mold Earth, Minor Illusion, Guidance
Rituals: Beast Sense, Speak With Animals, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Identify, Comprehend Languages, Floating Disc, Augury, Silence, etc.
Wear Medium Armor and wield a Greataxe

Quietus

2023-02-02, 09:50 AM

This combination can absolutely work, but I don't feel like the way you're approaching it would be ideal. You really do want to aim for level 5 in one class fairly directly. I would recommend Barb1/Warlock5 to start - you won't have the full resistance from Bear Totem, and you'll only have two rages, but you'll have the core of what you want to do lined up. Get your extra attack from Pact of the Blade, and then you can go back to Barbarian to get your subclass.

If you want to stick to the advancement path you've described, then I would suggest going for barbarian 5 before going back and getting deep into warlock. This will be more useful if you're specifically wanting to go Tome. This holds your build together at that important tier2 bump, and then follows up with the benefits of those warlock levels.

One build I've seen done before, that I think I could execute better on, was goliath zealot/genie warlock. This is a combo that has an end goal of barb6/warlockX, but it was very effective for damage output. Barb1->Warlock1->Barb+5->Warlock+X. This has you doing, at level 5 with a greataxe, 1d12+4(weapon)+1d6+2(zealot bonus damage)+2(rage)+3(genie's wrath), for 21 average damage on one attack. Level 6 (barb5) gives you two chances to land that one big hit, and level 7(barb6) bumps the damage by 1 and gives you one saving throw reroll per rage. From there it's all Warlock to raise Armor of Agathys.

Dr.Samurai

2023-02-02, 11:04 AM

I've considered a kalashtar barbarian/warlock multiclass myself.

I agree with the others re how to use AoA with Rage, and grabbing Extra Attack before multiclassing.

I would also consider Pact of the Blade so you can use your spell slots for smiting as well.

Fathomless is also interesting, IMO, because the tentacle could be the manifested tentacle of your quori spirit.

Unoriginal

2023-02-02, 11:22 AM

That's not a great plan. Keep in mind that Rage ends at the beginning of your turn if you haven't made an attack or taken damage since your last turn.

It ends at the end of your turn if you haven't made an attack or taken damage since your last turn.

Your rage lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven't attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then.

RogueJK

2023-02-02, 11:26 AM

That's what I get for going off memory...

However, my point about it not being a great plan is still valid. I just had the timing off. If you cast AoA with your Action in Turn 1, then BA Rage, then end your turn, your Rage immediately ends since your turn ended and you neither attacked nor took damage, unless you took damage earlier in Round 1 or manage to force damage from something like an OA using your movement during your turn (and the enemy's attack hits).

Basically, in most situations, your Rage would ending immediately after it started.

So my point about having to wait until Round 2 to Rage still stands, as well as the inefficiency of using your entire Action to case AoA when you have other better means to deal/mitigate 5-10 damage, unless you can precast AoA before combat even begins.

Unoriginal

2023-02-02, 11:33 AM

That's what I get for going off memory.

However, my point still valid, and even more so. If you cast AoA in Turn 1, then Rage, then end your turn, your Rage immediately ends since your turn ended and you neither attacked nor took damage, unless you somehow took damage from something earlier in the round or from something like an OA from your movement during your turn.

It says "since your last turn".

It can be read as either "you can't have a 'since your last turn' if it's the first turn you're in a Rage, therefore you don't have to worry about this requirement until the end of turn 2" or as "what counts is the last turn you took, period, meaning that if you attacked or took damage in the last turn you had before you entered Rage you're fine, even if that turn was during a previous fight".

RogueJK

2023-02-02, 11:34 AM

https://www.sageadvice.eu/when-barbarians-rage-end/

"Q: Would a barbarian's rage end if on the first round of combat he does not make an attack?

A: At the end of a barbarian's 1st turn, Rage ends if the barb. hasn't attacked a foe or taken damage this round."

As always, ask your DM. But RAW/RAI, it ends on Turn 1. You basically have to Attack in the same turn you activate Rage, unless you happened to take damage earlier in that same Round you activated Rage and before your turn ends that Round.

Unoriginal

2023-02-02, 11:37 AM

https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/700116380557844480?lang=en

Q: Would a barbarian's rage end if on the first round of combat he does not make an attack?

A: At the end of a barbarian's 1st turn, Rage ends if the barb. hasn't attacked a foe or taken damage this round.

Crawford's twitter posts have not been considered official rulings for years (and he himself admitted he had the habit of answering that kind of questions without paying attention).

1Pirate

2023-02-02, 01:45 PM

I haven't played it personally but this build won the The Gish Throwdown a while back:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24497507&postcount=27

sithlordnergal

2023-02-02, 02:16 PM

I haven't played it personally but this build won the The Gish Throwdown a while back:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24497507&postcount=27

XD Oh hey, I was about to suggest that old build of mine. Still just as viable as before. =D

kazaryu

2023-02-02, 03:22 PM

Aye that's fair. I can always go for Barb 5 for my 6th level so that way I can get extra attack faster. I had forgotten that part haha

yeah i think thats probably the best way, you basically need that extra attack, one way or another.

RogueJK

2023-02-02, 04:05 PM

I haven't played it personally but this build won the The Gish Throwdown a while back:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24497507&postcount=27

I definitely like that Barblock build, but more as a "Tier 3 or 4 combat-focused one-shot" kind of character.

It's got some powerful abilities, but a number of them are only available 1x/SR or LR, and many of them don't come online until Level 10+, which can feel like a long time for a PC starting at Level 4.

I do like the hilarious image of an icy-tomb-encased Barbarian sliding around the battlefield thanks to Freedom of Movement from Trickster's Escape. Too bad it's only 1x/day.

It's also lacking in a few areas, like Bonus Actions, and out of combat utility.

As a result, for a PC intended for a campaign, I'd consider:

A) Shoring up the non-combat utility by going Tomelock instead of Bladelock. You already have Extra Attack via beelining for Barbarian 5 first, so you're only giving up a bit of melee damage with Life Drinker and Eldritch Smite. That can be compensated for by taking GWM earlier, before boosting STR and in lieu of bumping CHA, just sticking with a 13/14 CHA throughout your career. Reckless Attack compensates for having a 16 STR instead of 18 STR for a few more levels. In return, Tomelocks gain 3 additional utility cantrips from any class, and access to the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation for all the rituals, to really cement your role as an out-of-combat utility caster.

B) Picking a race or feat that grants a frequently useful Bonus Action ability. Since you can't cast/concentrate on spells, that removes all of the various Warlock BA uses like Hex/Relentless Hex/Maddening Hex/etc., leaving you with just Barbarian BA abilities which consist of... Rage. That's typically used 1x per combat, or 0x in some combats. Taking GWM early on can add in a possible BA use, but even then that won't be every round. So I'd pick up a useful, repeatable BA ability via your race or a feat. This could be something like Minotaur for BA shoves, or Longtooth Shifter for BA bite attacks (and another Temp HP avenue). PAM/GWM using a 2H polearm is another option, although depending on your stats it can be tough to squeeze PAM and GWM and +STR and +CON into a Barbarian build, though it's potentially doable as a Variant Human taking PAM at Level 1 and GWM at Level 4, then focusing on boosting STR from there. The cool thing about Longtooth Shifter and PAM is that this additional BA attack can also benefit from your Rage Damage bonus. The Telekinetic feat may also be an option, for a frequently useful BA ability that isn't casting a spell so it works with your Rage. (But the same caveat about it being tough to fit in to your ASIs applies here too.)

C) Ignoring Barbarian past Level 5 or 6, and focusing on just Warlock levels. You're not gaining much from Barbarian 7-8, and this gets you access to the higher level Warlock abilities and invocations 2-3 levels sooner. Or alternately, do something like Barbarian 1 -> Bladelock 5 -> Totem Barbarian 3 -> Bladelock X. This gets them online even 2 levels sooner than that, at the cost of 1-2 fewer Rage per day, no speed bonus, not being able to go the utilitarian Tomelock route, a delayed 2nd ASI, and getting Extra Attack via Thirsting Blade 1 level later at Character Level 6 and at the cost of one of your Invocations.

strangebloke

2023-02-02, 04:29 PM

Yeah, this really isn't worth it.

Barbarian really doesn't play nice with spellcasting. You have to focus on out of combat magic. Rituals, out of combat spells, and spells with long durations but no concentration. But warlock isn't really the class for any of that. AoA is awesome but its just one spell and the interaction is wonky as mentioned.

Overall though Warlock is probably one of the last classes I'd choose to mix with barbarian, in spite of a hell-powered monster being super fun. Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Bard all offer more useful spellcasting options for the sorts of things you're interested in.

Crawford's twitter posts have not been considered official rulings for years (and he himself admitted he had the habit of answering that kind of questions without paying attention).
There's not really any ambiguity here though. You cast AoA, you rage, you end your turn. Have you attacked since your last turn? Taken damage? No? Okay, rage ends.

Psyren

2023-02-02, 05:06 PM

There's not really any ambiguity here though. You cast AoA, you rage, you end your turn. Have you attacked since your last turn? Taken damage? No? Okay, rage ends.

If you cast AoA and rage on the first turn however, there was no "last turn" before that one. So you have until the end of turn 2 (not the beginning of turn 2) to attack something before your rage ends.

Unoriginal

2023-02-02, 05:16 PM

There's not really any ambiguity here though. You cast AoA, you rage, you end your turn. Have you attacked since your last turn? Taken damage? No? Okay, rage ends.

There was no "last turn" before the turn you activated the Rage on, that's the thing.

Dr.Samurai

2023-02-02, 05:26 PM

Rage is looking for a condition to be met. If the condition was not met, it ends. I don't think saying "but there was no way to meet that condition" gets you out of it.

Unoriginal

2023-02-02, 05:44 PM

Rage is looking for a condition to be met. If the condition was not met, it ends. I don't think saying "but there was no way to meet that condition" gets you out of it.

It looks for a condition to be met in a certain time frame. If the time frame does not exist yet, the situation where the condition has to be met does not exist yet, and therefore the Rage continues.

If you say: "You can use my car as you wish, but you must always pay for the fuel. If you haven't paid me since the last time you used the car, then I won't let you use it", it's illogical to see the person get in the car for the first time and go "hold on, you haven't paid me for the fuel you used last time, I'm not letting you use the car".

Dr.Samurai

2023-02-02, 06:16 PM

It looks for a condition to be met in a certain time frame. If the time frame does not exist yet, the situation where the condition has to be met does not exist yet, and therefore the Rage continues.

If you say: "You can use my car as you wish, but you must always pay for the fuel. If you haven't paid me since the last time you used the car, then I won't let you use it", it's illogical to see the person get in the car for the first time and go "hold on, you haven't paid me for the fuel you used last time, I'm not letting you use the car".
Let's say you Rage in a dungeon corridor to get Advantage on a Strength check. Next turn you want to try again but the DM says "you didn't attack anyone". Would you counter with "but there is no one around to attack, so the condition can't be met".

You are effectively saying that if the condition can't be met, the requirement to meet it is null and void, and I don't think that follows. I don't think the intent of Rage is that you get a freebie Persistent Rage effect on Round 1.

RogueJK

2023-02-02, 06:20 PM

The time frame does exist. "Rounds/Turns" exist outside of combat, they're just generally not tracked because it typically doesn't matter. (Until it does, like tracking rounds/turns for some chase scenes, heist scenes, infiltration scenes, complex traps with time limits or progressions, etc.)

If it helps to visualize it, consider this wording: "Rage ends if you haven't attacked a hostile creature or taken damage since your last turn in the last 6 seconds."

Along the same lines, you don't get to use your Reaction to cast Shield at the very end of a combat, and then the last enemy immediately dies so combat is resolved, and then expect to roll into the next combat with +5 AC until your turn comes up in initiative order because the spell states it lasts "until the start of your next turn" and you haven't had a "next turn" yet. Instead, it fizzles out about 6 seconds from casting.

Psyren

2023-02-02, 06:28 PM

So if you use your action to do anything other than attack on turn 1, you've wasted your rage then?

The time frame does exist. "Rounds/Turns" exist outside of combat, they're just generally not tracked because it typically doesn't matter. (Until it does, like tracking rounds/turns for some chase scenes, heist scenes, infiltration scenes, complex traps with time limits or progressions, etc.)

If it helps to visualize it, consider this: "Rage ends if you haven't attacked a hostile creature or taken damage since your last turn in the last 6 seconds."

"My character always punches himself 6 seconds before the first round of combat. We're not tracking rounds then so it costs me nothing."

5eNeedsDarksun

2023-02-02, 06:45 PM

A lot of the discussion on here seems to follow the assumption that AoA needs to be cast on round 1, which I think the OP stated as a plan. But given the 1 hour duration this is likely not an issue most of the time.
There is synergy between AoA and damage resistance, so I don't think this idea is bad. Given that Warlocks only get 2 spells/ SR, the OP really only needs to come up with 1 other spell that can be cast out of combat or is non-concentration to productively use slots all the time. There are also invocations that are useful with this build.

As others have mentioned, the order in which levels are taken is going to be significant to how effective this is; 3/3 and 3/4 splits are usually bad and this combo is no different. Given that Barbarian tails off, I'd think by higher levels this build is probably as good or better than straight Barbarian.

Pex

2023-02-02, 06:50 PM

Viable is a dodgy word when it comes to 5e - the system is setup that the bare minimum works, as long as the general guidelines are followed (CR encounter level, number of encounters, etc.). Party members making really poor choices or the DM veering away from the guidelines can make viability a concern; if the DM makes a party of 3 face an Ancient Black Dragon at level 2 in a desert miles away from anything of note, no class combination is viable and what happens is entirely up to the DM.

So yeah, viability is kind of a useless word in a RAW discussion for 5e - everything is viable. Optimal is a loaded word, meaning very different things to different people; so its difficult to use that (and may not be the aim, anyway). Using the word 'strong' will get 50 people to jump out of the woodwork announcing that flavour is as strong as you want it to be, providing no actual information and just bogging things down. Mechanically-strong will also get back into the viable problem with people pointing out it will work just fine. What you are likely after is, is XYZ better mechanically than average?

So, is the Barblock better mechanically than average? No - it lacks synergy and multiclassing has a cost. It should be noted that most martials reach a level where further levels do not offer great value, so multiclassing out is often a good choice. So is a Barblock better than a Barbarian? After a certain level, yeah, likely. Better than a Warlock? I would say no, likely considerably weaker.

It is easier not to make a character that is The Suck in 5E, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. It's also true you don't need high level of optimization to function well in the game, but you still need to be able to function. When multiclassing lack of synergy is a problem, a significant one. Versatility is good, but if there's no cohesion you will fall behind. Even before Hexblade Paladin and Warlock was a good combo because it gave Paladin what it lacked, a strong range attack, Hex spell for extra damage on attacks when not smiting, and a buff like Devil's Sight. The two classes work together. Barbarian and Warlock do not. When you do Barbarian stuff you can't do Warlock stuff except perhaps Devil's Sight if you took it. When you do Warlock stuff you can't do Barbarian stuff. You are not Barbarian and Warlock; you are Barbarian or Warlock forever behind a single class of either.

Maybe someone can find a Barbarian/Warlock build that is cohesive. If it's one specific build and that's the only build that makes it work, that's nice but doesn't make the combo viable in my view. To be a viable there needs to be many builds that function together. A Paladin/Warlock works with Fire Bolt, Expeditious Retreat, and Misty Visions. There's no specific Patron. No specific Pact. Hexblade happens to be the alleged strongest because of CH SAD and Shield spell. There is no one specific way you must build a Paladin/Warlock to make it work.

If there are many Barbarian/Warlock cohesive builds that I'm not seeing upon first think then I'll accept it.

strangebloke

2023-02-02, 07:05 PM

There was no "last turn" before the turn you activated the Rage on, that's the thing.

there's always a "last turn." If there's no turns outside combat (which creates loads of problems - how do you cast something that has a casting time of 'one round') then the last turn before the first turn of combat would be... the last turn of last combat, whether that was 30 seconds ago or 20 years ago.

And yes this is silly, but you're the one insisting that an ability somehow takes account of when combat started.

And yes, I also wouldn't run it this way. I don't think most would. But the rules are what they are and its worth mentioning.

Psyren

2023-02-02, 07:14 PM

there's always a "last turn." If there's no turns outside combat (which creates loads of problems - how do you cast something that has a casting time of 'one round') then the last turn before the first turn of combat would be... the last turn of last combat, whether that was 30 seconds ago or 20 years ago.

And yes this is silly, but you're the one insisting that an ability somehow takes account of when combat started.

And yes, I also wouldn't run it this way. I don't think most would. But the rules are what they are and its worth mentioning.

If someone insisted on reading it that way, bold is exactly what I would counter with. That or kicking the ground IC every 6 seconds.

RogueJK

2023-02-02, 07:33 PM

The two classes work together. Barbarian and Warlock do not. When you do Barbarian stuff you can't do Warlock stuff except perhaps Devil's Sight if you took it. When you do Warlock stuff you can't do Barbarian stuff. You are not Barbarian and Warlock; you are Barbarian or Warlock forever behind a single class of either.

Yes and no.

No, it's not the most synergistic of multiclass combinations. But it's far from fair to say that "Devil's Sight is the only Warlock thing a Barblock can use".

While spellcasting is generally the primary focus of a Warlock, and Barbarian Rage puts a huge cramp on that, that doesn't mean these two classes can't be used to shore up each other's weak areas and build in some useful synergy.

Nearly all Barbarians notoriously lack just about any utility outside of combat. They hit stuff in combat, then generally stand around anytime they're not in combat doing little to nothing until there's something heavy that needs to be lifted or perhaps occasionally making a middling Intimidation or Survival check. In addition, Barbarians also notoriously get lesser benefit out of staying in their primary class past Level 5-8ish, since their higher level abilities just aren't that exciting or impactful. So there's much less of an opportunity cost to being "behind a single-classed Barbarian" past that point.

If a Barbarian/Warlock seems a bit bipolar as you state, that actually works in the Barbarian's favor. They can be mostly a Barbarian in combat, and mostly a Warlock out of combat. (As opposed to a Barbarian in combat, and a bystander out of combat.) Barblocks can be built to be extremely utilitarian casters out of combat, using stuff like Book of Many Secrets for access to all utility rituals, plus utility cantrips, utility/exploration/travel spells, and utility invocations like Mask of Many Faces, Eyes of the Runekeeper, Eldritch Sight, etc.

In addition, Barblocks do have potential access to a few long duration, non-Concentration buffs that can be cast ahead of time and carried over into combat even when they plan to Rage, like Armor of Agathys, Freedom of Movement, False Life, Blink, Fire Shield, or Death Ward. Plus, a number of the Warlock's non-spell subclass abilities and Bladelock invocations can be used to beef up the Barbarian's already formidable combat prowess. Or you can burn Warlock spell slots on things like Eldritch Smite. And importantly, a Barbarian cannot Rage in every single combat throughout a 6-8 encounter day, which still leaves room for times when even normal Warlock spellcasting is potentially useful. Just like a Warlock cannot afford to cast multiple spells in every combat like a traditional spellcaster, which still leaves plenty of room for times when they need to make non-spell attacks.

If you wanted to, a Barblock could even be built to be a solid backup healer by going Celestial Warlock, getting access to a number of out of combat healing, resurrection, and status removal spells, plus in-combat BA quasi-Healing-Word that isn't a spell. Even dedicated healers are rarely found casting Restoration/Revivify/etc. during ongoing combat, instead sticking mostly to Healing Word and then doing other non-healer things. (Pardon me a minute while I go roll up a Zealot Barbarian 3/Celestial Bladelock X or Zealot Barbarian 6/Celestial Tomelock X...)

Plus Barbarian isn't a super MAD class, needing just a high STR, moderate CON, and 14 DEX, which leaves room for potentially adding in a moderate CHA without detracting too much from their usual stats. And utility caster Warlocks don't have to be built to be CHA-intensive. You can do just fine with only the bare minimum 13 needed to multiclass. Even with standard Point Buy, you can easily do STR 15+1/DEX 13+1/CON 13+1/INT 9/WIS 10/CHA 13.

Depending on which angle you want to approach the Barblock from, you can end up with a Barbarian with greatly enhanced out of combat utility and slightly enhanced combat prowess (especially in combats when they don't Rage), or a melee-focused Warlock that gets access to weapons and armor that non-Hexblades don't get plus a beefing up of their defensive capabilities and damage output at the cost of much of their already-limited spellcasting options in some combats.

So while it may not seem like the combo has any synergy at all at first glance, there are actually a fair number of options there that can play nice with each other and shore up areas of weakness or enhance current abilities. Certainly more than just one specific viable build.

Overall, I'd put Barblock towards the middle of the pack as far as useful and effective multiclass combos go, along the same lines of something like a Ranger/Cleric or Bard/Rogue, and ahead of a number of things like a Ranger/Bard, Warlock/Druid, Druid/Rogue, Artificer/Paladin, Monk/Wizard, etc. It's not going to be super optimized, but it's far from bad or totally anti-synergistic, and actually has some interesting and useful combos if you just look for them.

Unoriginal

2023-02-02, 07:53 PM

And yes this is silly, but you're the one insisting that an ability somehow takes account of when combat started.

Personally, I always read it as "the last turn since you've started this Rage". Which would guarantee that the Rage lasts at least until the end of the turn after the turn in which the Rage starts.

I realize those are not the exact words (and it is a generous reading), however, so I have to acknowledge all the possible readings.

Samayu

2023-02-02, 08:21 PM

I don't understand why it's such a hardship to wait and enter rage on the same turn that you intend to attack. I mean, I'm so angry I could kill someone... next round!

If you do rage on the turn prior to attacking, and precast a buff/defense before combat, hoping someone will attack you to keep you raging, I suggest using one that's not so visible. AoA is kinda designed to look intimidating, and those who know what it does will likely avoid attacking you unless they can afford losing the hit points.

Sure, barbarian doesn't work well with casters, but a warlock isn't much of a caster. Two spell slots? One of which you've already spent?

strangebloke

2023-02-02, 09:21 PM

If someone insisted on reading it that way, bold is exactly what I would counter with. That or kicking the ground IC every 6 seconds.

If you're saying its a stupid rule I would agree, but that isn't the question.

Psyren

2023-02-02, 09:58 PM

If you're saying its a stupid rule I would agree, but that isn't the question.

I acknowledge that your reading is one valid way to read it.

But given multiple valid readings, one of which is a constant annoyance that is easily circumvented by being equally annoying, I'll go with the reading that simply avoids either side of the DM screen being annoying.

Sherlockpwns

2023-02-03, 12:39 AM

To throw this back to the OP.

It’s absolutely viable, but I think there are some mechanical mistakes the original plan has.

1) You can’t use fiend’s temp HP for AoA. AoA only works with the temp hp it makes. If you gain more it overrides it. Use depths instead. This gives you more damage mitigation and a bonus action attack.

2) Goliath also maximizes damage mitigation.

3) You probably want only one level of Barbarian for rage. 2 max. Instead focus on getting Warlock levels to maximize AoA asap.

4) As a result you want pact of blade. This will get you 2 attacks at char level 6.

5) You will probably never want to cast AoA in combat if you can reach an enemy. However it lasts an hour, so cast at the first sign of danger!

This is an absolute powerhouse character. Don’t listen to anyone who says otherwise. It IS weak to ranged and spell attacks, but that’s part of the fun of the character. Playing to specific strengths and weaknesses will be a blast; and when you are firing off level 3-5 AoA hits and taking almost no damage you’ll feel like a god.

For example when raging you get slammed for 40 damage, a blow that would cripple our outright kill a player. You use your reaction as a Goliath and roll an average 6+con, lets call it 10. Now you’ve taken 30 damage reduced by half. 15. Oh did I mention your buddy cast warding bond? 8 damage taken. Your level 4 AoA blasts them for 20. A 40 damage attack and you collectively took less damage than you dealt and can keep going. Against attacks doing 10 or less? Your tentacle can all but eliminate it.

Plus you don’t HAVE to do this every combat. Just when you against melee enemies. Otherwise you can play in other ways.

Play this character, it’ll be fun

Kane0

2023-02-03, 01:01 AM

My initial thought was trying to answer the question 'if you can't cast spells or concentrate how are you going to use your spell slots' and came up with Eldritch Smite. But you're starting at level 4, so that's a non starter.

But! UA 29 (Warlock & Wizard) has a couple of Invocations that are almost the same in effect: Mace of Dispater, Claw of Acamar and Curse Bringer for Fiend, Great Old One and Hexblade patrons respectively. These don't appear to have level requirements but do need you to take Pact of the Blade, so you can start at Warlock 3/Barbarian 1. Hexblade Curse also works with Rage too, but you may prefer Fiend, it's nice to have the choice.

The biggest problem is that you are going to be notably behind on getting extra attack unless you get it from Warlock 5, then swap it when your Barbarian levels eventually catch up at level 10. But that's not a dealbreaker, and you have at least two levels of play before you pick barbarian subclass so you can get a feel for what might work best in the party.

ChaseC311

2023-02-03, 03:06 AM

Hi all! OP here. I honestly wasn't expecting this many responses, it's a little daunting to say the least (That's a good thing in this scenario, I loved reading through everyone's thoughts and ideas). The more I read and think about it, the more I realize my initial idea might have been... Clunky (clunkier than what a Barblock usually is.). Belows a compilation of my thoughts

. Barbarian's Rage and AoA: A heavy topic of debate in this thread is whether or not rage would end turn 1 if I already use my action for Armor of Agathys. After reading through the responses I realized that yeah, Raging AND AoA turn one probably wouldn't be the best. I think I'll keep AoA in my spells list, but most likely will only use it if I can precast it or if Im running into a hoard of small enemies haha. AoA's one of my favorite spells in DnD so I might have been partially blinded by making it an integral part of my combat strategy

. Warlock Subclass: With AoA already in my repertoire, the Fiends THP on a kill is significantly less impactful due to thp not stacking. With that in mind, I'll most likely be switching to the fathomless warlock. Not only do it allow me to utilize my bonus actions every round, but the tentacles speed reduction on impact better helps me be the "immovable object" I had in mind when making the character. I have plans to take sentinel (if I don't roll abysmally for stats) and while their may be a bit of diminishing returns with the Sentinels Opportunity attach and the tentacle, they can still synergize nicely together in situations where the enemy slips past me but still suffers a movement speed reduction from the tentacle attacking during my turn. Like, "yes, I may have missed my opportunity attack, but you better hope you can make it to the backline in 5 seconds because I can make it to you in 6." Plus as one of you guys stated, I can flavor it as the Quori lashing out into the material plane!

. Pact Boon and Invocations: I've heard a lot of good arguments for the blade and tome boons for damage and out of combat utility respectively, but Im still debating whether or not I want to switch my boon from the Chain invocation. The familiar can help with scouting out areas ahead (potentially helping me determine when to precast AoA) and with the Gift of The Everliving ones invocation I can be a more reliable rock for my team. As someone who usually plays support, I die inside every time I expend a high level slot for healing only to roll bad on the dice, especially when my targets about to go down. That being said, my original goal for my second invocation (if I stuck with the chain) was Investment of The Chain Master. But with the Fathomless now taking up most of my bonus actions, I feel like it may be better to come up with a different invocation to pick. I was thinking perhaps Fiendish Vigor? With my ability to cast false life indefinitely it's a lot easier to precast, and therefore can act as a sort of consolation prize for when I'm caught with my pants down and didn't precast AoA properly. Alternatively I could go for devils sight for the dark vision.

. Additional notes: This thread is a godsend in helping me put together the character I imagine while still having fun playing him. Not only have various in game rules been explained to me, but the threads also allowed me to play in a way that would work better with my characters flavor. Truly, I am grateful ^-^

Xetheral

2023-02-03, 04:31 AM

A Barblock can also make a fantastic switch hitter. With the Eldritch Blast cantrip, Agonizing Blast,
and Eldritch Spear invocations, and the Spell Sniper feat, you're a fantastic sniper. And if anyone manages to close into range with you, Surprise!, you have the durability (and eventually the melee prowess) of a barbarian.

There are two main ways to build a Barblock switch hitter: (1) Take a level of Barbarian, then two levels of Warlock, push for Barbarian 5 to get Extra Attack, then grab Warlock 3 and take Chain Pact (for an invisible flying spotter to help locate targets at long range) and/or Eagle Totem Barb 7 (another option for long-range target selection); or (2) take 1 level of Barbarian, then push for Hexblade/Bladepact 5 to get Thirsting Blade, then build to taste. Build 1 requires both Strength and Charisma, but works with any patron and is a terrific scout. Build 2 only needs Charisma and gets 2 melee attacks slightly faster, but has less long-term melee damage potential.

Note however, that the value of a sniper in 5e depends heavily on campaign style. If the party can often choose how, when, and where to engage their enemies, long-range firepower can be brutally effective. If instead encounter locations are planned by the DM and tend to feature indoor and/or close-range combats, then you may not get much chance to leverage your increased range.

strangebloke

2023-02-03, 11:15 AM

I acknowledge that your reading is one valid way to read it.

But given multiple valid readings, one of which is a constant annoyance that is easily circumvented by being equally annoying, I'll go with the reading that simply avoids either side of the DM screen being annoying.

If you're arguing that turns don't exist outside of combat, which isn't something I think the rules support to begin with, you end up with lots of weird annoying edge cases in the rules.For example, the Daunting Roar ability of the Leonine makes creatures frightened until the end of your next turn. If you use this out of combat, and someone fails a save are they just stuck in a constant state of fear until combat starts? If you clip an ally with daunting roar at the end of combat and the 'next turn' is a week later, are they still frightened??

If your answer is 'no' then it really seems like this "no turns outside of combat" position isn't something you actually treat as part of the rules, its just an argument you trot out at specific times to win arguments about RAW with rules lawyers. The example of the Leonine is just one of dozens of weird things that get introduced if you go with a "no turns outside of combat" interpretation of the rules.

My approach is simpler: if RAW is dumb, I don't use RAW. For rage, you keep it unless incapacitated. Simple and fair. I don't assume others run with this, but I think its an improvement from the perspective of fun, flavor, and clarity. Most of my players don't even know that this restriction on rage is a thing

Psyren

2023-02-03, 11:28 AM

If you're arguing that turns don't exist outside of combat, which isn't something I think the rules support to begin with, you end up with lots of weird annoying edge cases in the rules.For example, the Daunting Roar ability of the Leonine makes creatures frightened until the end of your next turn. If you use this out of combat, and someone fails a save are they just stuck in a constant state of fear until combat starts? If you clip an ally with daunting roar at the end of combat and the 'next turn' is a week later, are they still frightened??

If your answer is 'no' then it really seems like this "no turns outside of combat" position isn't something you actually treat as part of the rules, its just an argument you trot out at specific times to win arguments about RAW with rules lawyers. The example of the Leonine is just one of dozens of weird things that get introduced if you go with a "no turns outside of combat" interpretation of the rules.

My approach is simpler: if RAW is dumb, I don't use RAW. For rage, you keep it unless incapacitated. Simple and fair. I don't assume others run with this, but I think its an improvement from the perspective of fun, flavor, and clarity. Most of my players don't even know that this restriction on rage is a thing

I'm not saying "turns don't exist outside combat." My issue is specifically with the term "last turn." I'm saying there are multiple possible interpretations of that rules element depending on context; there is no one true answer. It's not as simple as saying "RAW is clearly and unambiguously X, and I, being wise and enlightened, simply choose not to use RAW."

"Last turn" can be {null} because first turn of combat.
"Last turn" can be "previous 6 seconds at all times, combat or no combat."
"Last turn" can be "final turn of the previous combat."

The rules don't specify which you should use. I go with interpretation #1 because if there is a first turn of combat, then by definition there cannot have been a turn in that combat before that one - that's what "first" means. (And if you're arguing that there is no such thing as a "first turn," then I'd love to know how Surprise works at your table.)

Dr.Samurai

2023-02-03, 11:31 AM

Unoriginal

2023-02-03, 11:50 AM

Should it be interpreted as the turn you just took? Because the wording seems to suggest that Rage is checking for the condition after your turn has ended:

It ends early if you are knocked unconscious or if your turn ends and you haven't attacked a hostile creature since your last turn or taken damage since then.

Your turn ends, and Rage checks to see what happened on your last turn, which would be the turn that just ended, no?

"Since your last turn" designate the turn before the turn that just ended.

"Last" here is to signify an event anterior to the event that is happening, and the end is still part of the event. For example, if Person A says "I haven't seen you since last summer" to Person B, it would only be accurate if A did not see B any time during the time period between [summer 1, including its end] and [end of summer 2]. If A makes that statement the day after the end of summer 2, then it is no longer accurate, as it means A did not see B since two summers ago.

strangebloke

2023-02-03, 12:23 PM

I'm not saying "turns don't exist outside combat." My issue is specifically with the term "last turn." I'm saying there are multiple possible interpretations of that rules element depending on context; there is no one true answer. It's not as simple as saying "RAW is clearly and unambiguously X, and I, being wise and enlightened, simply choose not to use RAW."

"Last turn" can be {null} because first turn of combat.
"Last turn" can be "previous 6 seconds at all times, combat or no combat."
"Last turn" can be "final turn of the previous combat."

The rules don't specify which you should use. I go with interpretation #1 because if there is a first turn of combat, then by definition there cannot have been a turn in that combat before that one - that's what "first" means. (And if you're arguing that there is no such thing as a "first turn," then I'd love to know how Surprise works at your table.)
Why aren't you replying to the Leonine example? If "last turn" is {null} on the first turn of combat, then "next turn" is also {null} on the last turn of combat (or outside of combat) which means that the frightened condition given out by Daunting Roar would never end, since the end state is null and never occurs.

As for surprise, surprise references "the first turn of combat" and also says "when the encounter starts." Obviously there can be a first turn within the context of an encounter, but that doesn't imply that there are no turns before. If I say "the first minute of my commute that doesn't imply there weren't minutes before my commute.

Psyren

2023-02-03, 12:37 PM

Why aren't you replying to the Leonine example? If "last turn" is {null} on the first turn of combat, then "next turn" is also {null} on the last turn of combat (or outside of combat) which means that the frightened condition given out by Daunting Roar would never end, since the end state is null and never occurs.

"The game organizes the chaos of combat into a cycle of rounds and turns. A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world."

Once combat ends (or outside of combat entirely), turns cease to exist, and anything that is measured in rounds is measured in 6-second intervals instead. That includes the Leonin's roar. Going from combat->not-combat is not the same as going from not-combat->combat; for the former, you either activated the ability when turns existed, allowing for easy conversion from rounds to seconds once combat ended, or you did so when they didn't and therefore it was already being measured in seconds when you used it.

In short, turn before the first turn is {null}, while turn after the last turn is converted into 6 seconds. Time only elapses in one direction.

Unoriginal

2023-02-03, 12:59 PM

Honestly I still think reading it as only counting since the Rage started makes the more sense.

On the thread's topic:

The Wild Magic Barbarian's 6th level ability let you use an action to give yourself an additional spell slot of lvl 1 to 3, once per long rest (other uses of the ability can boost other people). That's far from nothing for a Warlock.

I feel like there's some synergies here that are worth exploring.

Pex

2023-02-03, 01:08 PM

Yes and no.

I'm not convinced because it leans towards my point you are a barbarian or a warlock not both, but I like your argument. Thank you.
For you being "a barbarian or a warlock", my words, is a feature. The versatility is enough for you than need of cohesion. Fair enough.

Joe the Rat

2023-02-03, 01:14 PM

Two Three Four things

1) I know you've switched from fiend, but the AoA - gift crossover does fare well - AoA isn't going to last terribly long at 5(half damage) thp - That's your punishment pool, then your fiendness takes over on making your actual hp nigh-untouchable... though it's really more a buffer, since you don't have that much warlock to fuel it. Non-fiend is a good incentive to add more warlock for more AoA.

2) Agathys+Ancients+Reckless is potent for damage sponge purposes. It is incentivizing your enemies to come after you in every way possible, then still punishes them when they do.

3) Armor of Agathys lasts for an hour. It would not be unreasonable to precast if you are near potential combat. You get two castings per nap-and-cookie, so you can flex a bit if you don't need the slots for utility. That also saves any DM-specific issues with the "no fighting in the first round" rage issues. (FWIW, I'm good with it, but I also have an Astral Monk/Barbarian player who likes to "Go Super-Saiyan," And I am all about ridiculousness)

4) If you ever run out of Rages, Hex. Dosn't help your defense, but it covers the damage portion.

strangebloke

2023-02-03, 02:09 PM

"The game organizes the chaos of combat into a cycle of rounds and turns. A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world."

Once combat ends (or outside of combat entirely), turns cease to exist, and anything that is measured in rounds is measured in 6-second intervals instead. That includes the Leonin's roar. Going from combat->not-combat is not the same as going from not-combat->combat; for the former, you either activated the ability when turns existed, allowing for easy conversion from rounds to seconds once combat ended, or you did so when they didn't and therefore it was already being measured in seconds when you used it.

In short, turn before the first turn is {null}, while turn after the last turn is converted into 6 seconds. Time only elapses in one direction.
Fascinating stuff.

So to be clear
when the text says 'since your last turn' and its the first turn of combat, this returns a null
the fact that the statement "you haven't attacked or been damaged since {null}" makes no sense means that the clause self-invalidates
but when the text says 'after your next turn' and its the final turn of combat (or not in combat at all) we can easily extrapolate that this should be converted to 'about six seconds from the end of combat'
this is because time elapses only in one direction, making conversion from rounds to seconds possible, but not seconds to rounds (really not sure how we work with all those spells that have real-time durations then...)
when JC is asked about this and says he'd rule the other way, this is clearly just him being a silly man

meanwhile, my reading:

last turn is prior to combat, and if the barbarian hasn't attacked or been damage since then, they lose rage.
JC agrees with this
personally I don't like this rule and don't enforce it.

Honestly I still think reading it as only counting since the Rage started makes the more sense.
Agreed, from the perspective of how a barbarian should feel, at least IMO.

The Wild Magic Barbarian's 6th level ability let you use an action to give yourself an additional spell slot of lvl 1 to 3, once per long rest (other uses of the ability can boost other people). That's far from nothing for a Warlock.

I feel like there's some synergies here that are worth exploring.
Pretty sure you can use it on yourself multiple times, though the weirdness more comes from you replacing an 'expended spell slot' with a spell slot of a lower level.

Still, a very good option for this build.

Two Three Four things

1) I know you've switched from fiend, but the AoA - gift crossover does fare well - AoA isn't going to last terribly long at 5(half damage) thp - That's your punishment pool, then your fiendness takes over on making your actual hp nigh-untouchable... though it's really more a buffer, since you don't have that much warlock to fuel it. Non-fiend is a good incentive to add more warlock for more AoA.

2) Agathys+Ancients+Reckless is potent for damage sponge purposes. It is incentivizing your enemies to come after you in every way possible, then still punishes them when they do.

3) Armor of Agathys lasts for an hour. It would not be unreasonable to precast if you are near potential combat. You get two castings per nap-and-cookie, so you can flex a bit if you don't need the slots for utility. That also saves any DM-specific issues with the "no fighting in the first round" rage issues. (FWIW, I'm good with it, but I also have an Astral Monk/Barbarian player who likes to "Go Super-Saiyan," And I am all about ridiculousness)

4) If you ever run out of Rages, Hex. Dosn't help your defense, but it covers the damage portion.

All good points. I would also vote for goliath, since you can use the reaction to extend the life of your 1st or 2nd level AoA by a good deal.

Psyren

2023-02-03, 02:24 PM

Fascinating stuff.

So to be clear
when the text says 'since your last turn' and its the first turn of combat, this returns a null
the fact that the statement "you haven't attacked or been damaged since {null}" makes no sense means that the clause self-invalidates
but when the text says 'after your next turn' and its the final turn of combat (or not in combat at all) we can easily extrapolate that this should be converted to 'about six seconds from the end of combat'
this is because time elapses only in one direction, making conversion from rounds to seconds possible, but not seconds to rounds (really not sure how we work with all those spells that have real-time durations then...)
when JC is asked about this and says he'd rule the other way, this is clearly just him being a silly man

meanwhile, my reading:

last turn is prior to combat, and if the barbarian hasn't attacked or been damage since then, they lose rage.
JC agrees with this
personally I don't like this rule and don't enforce it.

My reading: First round of combat is a gimme for all barbarians because there can't be a "last round" before the first round, first means first.

Your reading: Every table with a barbarian either needs to ignore the rules or have them kick the ground every 6 seconds in case a fight breaks out.

Fascinating indeed.

Armor of Agathys lasts for an hour. It would not be unreasonable to precast if you are near potential combat. You get two castings per nap-and-cookie, so you can flex a bit if you don't need the slots for utility.

That's valid, but in practice precasting is a crapshoot.

RogueJK

2023-02-03, 03:10 PM

Pretty sure you can use it on yourself multiple times, though the weirdness more comes from you replacing an 'expended spell slot' with a spell slot of a lower level.

Which you can't do on a Warlock. They totally lack spell slots lower than their maximum.

So it'd only be 100% useable on a Wild Magic Barblock that took no more than 2 Warlock levels, and only partially useful on a Warlock 3-6, with you simply having to hope that you rolled at least a 2 (66% chance) for a Warlock 3-4, or a 3 (33% chance) for a Warlock 5-6, otherwise that use of the ability would be wasted. It'd be totally useless on a Warlock 7+, since they have zero spell slots of Levels 1-3.

And for a Barbarian, just 1 or 2 Warlock levels doesn't get you much of anything worthwhile. Most of the synergistic and useful abilities come from Warlock 3+, and especially 5+ and 7+, so Wild Magic's Bolstering Magic would be of lesser or no benefit for most Barblocks.

But Wild Magic Barblock certain fits the flavor of an nearly-uncontrollable magic-infused servant to a powerful puppetmaster. And something like a Genie Tomelock 3/Wild Magic Barbarian 6+ is potentially workable, especially for a Level 9 one-shot or similar. The issue is you're just not going to have all that many 1st-2nd level spells that you'll be using regularly, to get a lot of benefit out of frequently recharging your 2nd level slots. You're looking at 4 total spells known, so maybe the occasional pre-cast Armor of Agathys or Mirror Image buff just before combat, or perhaps an out of combat Spider Climb or Invisibility every now and then. So you'll spend most uses recharging other party casters. Not really worth building an entire character around unless it's strictly for flavor reasons.

With that in mind, I'll most likely be switching to the fathomless warlock.

I think the most useful Patrons for a Barblock are probably Undead, Fiend, Celestial, and Genie, in roughly that order. Then perhaps Hexblade, which at least gets you the non-spell Hexblade's Curse and specter pet, although many of other abilities are useless/redundant like the armor/weapon proficiencies and CHA to attack (since Reckless and Rage Damage both require STR attacks).

Fathomless is cool and gives the BA-starved Barbarian something to do with their BA, but you'll need to have a decent CHA to take full advantage of the BA tentacle, and most Barblocks won't be able to afford more than a 13-14 CHA after investing in STR/DEX/CON. So that'd be best for times when you roll for stats, and roll well.

And the other patrons (Archfey, Undying, GOO) are just weak overall, even on a straight Warlock, and provide minimal benefit to a Barblock in particular.

While I'm at it, I'd say the most useful Barbarian Paths for a Barblock are likely Bear Totem, Ancestral Guardians, and Zealot, in roughly that order too. (Unsurprisingly, the strongest Barbarian subclasses overall, even besides Barblocks.)

Unoriginal

2023-02-03, 03:41 PM

Which you can't do on a Warlock. They totally lack spell slots lower than their maximum.

Warlocks don't naturally gain spell slots lower than their max, but I see nothing that forbids a Warlock from having them.

The DMG errata made clear that a Warlock can use a the Pear of Power to regain a third lvl spell slot even if they've expended a 4th level or higher spell slot:

While this pearl is on your person, you can use an action to speak its command word and regain one expended spell slot. If the expended slot was of 4th level or higher, the new slot is 3rd level.

So I think by the same reasoning, the Wild Barb lvl 6 can use their Bolstering Magic ability on themselves no matter how many Warlock levels they have.

RogueJK

2023-02-03, 03:46 PM

The DMG errata made clear that a Warlock can use a the Pear of Power to regain a third lvl spell slot even if they've expended a 4th level or higher spell slot:

Interesting. In that light, I'd likely allow it, despite it being tough to track, especially on DnDBeyond.

Still, you'd need to ensure that you have enough regular uses of a Level 1-3 spell to make use of those frequently recharged slots.

Unoriginal

2023-02-03, 04:05 PM

Still, you'd need to ensure that you have enough regular uses of a Level 1-3 spell to make use of those frequently recharged slots.

True, but as an added bonus, there is also a few Invocations that let you use "a warlock spell slot", no specific spell slot lvl asked.

So this Barblock could use them even with a lvl 1 spell slot.

The list of Invactions affected:

- Eldritch Smite
- Bewitching Whispers
- Dreadful Word
- Minions of Chaos
- Mire the Mind
- Sculptor of Flesh
- Sign of Ill Omen
- Thief of Five Fates

Sadly most of the spells granted by those Invocations are Concentration, but still, it's not nothing.

RogueJK

2023-02-03, 04:43 PM

Same with Freedom of Movement from Trickster's Escape invocation.

Casting a Level 3/4/5 spell from as little as a 1st level slot is actually a pretty good deal. :smallbiggrin:

Sadly most of the spells granted by those Invocations are Concentration, but still, it's not nothing.

Also too bad that most of those are Level 7+ Invocations. Barbarian 6/Warlock 7+ is a long time to wait for your gimmick to come online.

JNAProductions

2023-02-03, 04:54 PM

Same with Freedom of Movement from Trickster's Escape invocation.

Casting a Level 3/4/5 spell from as little as a 1st level slot is actually a pretty good deal. :smallbiggrin:

Also too bad that most of those are Level 7+ Invocations. Barbarian 6/Warlock 7+ is a long time to wait for your gimmick to come online.

I don’t think it would let you cast them for lower slots than their minimum.

Dr.Samurai

2023-02-03, 05:14 PM

I really like the idea of Rebuke of the Talisman on a frontliner.

Barbarians are already the kings of Strength saving throws to avoid being knocked Prone on the frontline, but Grapples bypass that saving throw and are simply imposed on a successful hit for many monsters. The barbarian then has to either Shove the monster away or use an Action to escape (if monster is too big, as an example). Maybe the barbarian doesn't care and just attacks, but some Grapples impose Restrained as well, and bring you one step closer to Swallow or Brain Extraction. Also, once a monster has grabbed you, it can drag you around, either advancing the frontline towards your party members on the backline, pulling you out of a buffing aura, closer to a hazard, etc.

Cue Rebuke of the Talisman. A monster hits you, and before it's Grapple can take hold (hehe) you use your Reaction to deal it damage and knock it back 10ft. No attack roll, no saving throw, and it doesn't care if the monster is Huge, Gargantuan, or Megatitanogiganta. It just works and pushes most monsters, even the giant ones, out of reach of you, preventing the grab.

Just imagine the Tarrasque trying to Bite/Swallow the barbarian but every time it almost gets the barbarian in its mouth he activates his Cracker Jack Ring and the Tarrasque gets launched back 10ft.

This can be achieved with Warlock 3, so on the higher end of a dip, but you've got it in tier 2 assuming you stick around in barbarian for Extra Attack.

RogueJK

2023-02-03, 05:20 PM

I don’t think it would let you cast them for lower slots than their minimum.

Edit: I think you're right. I'd say the general Spellcasting rules prohibit it:

"When a character casts a spell, he or she expends a slot of that spell’s level or higher"

So that recharged spell slot would work with Eldritch Smite, but wouldn't allow you to cast a Trickster's Escape 4th level Freedom of Movement via a Level 1-3 recharged slot.

JNAProductions

2023-02-03, 05:22 PM

RAI, probably not.

RAW, it doesn't specifically prohibit it, probably because they didn't anticipate such a niche scenario.

“It doesn’t say I can’t” is not a solid rules argument.

RogueJK

2023-02-03, 05:27 PM

Right, and I was editing my response to now reflect that it does appear to be specifically prohibited, per the general Spellcasting rules in the PHB.

There's isn't a defined exception that would specifically allow the invocation spell to be cast using a lower level slot, therefore the general Spellcasting rules apply, and it must use a slot of at least the minimum level for that spell.

Unoriginal

2023-02-03, 05:35 PM

I don’t think it would let you cast them for lower slots than their minimum.

Those invocations state you cast them by spending "a warlock spell slot", the spell level is not mentioned (the Warlock level is, however).

Also too bad that most of those are Level 7+ Invocations. Barbarian 6/Warlock 7+ is a long time to wait for your gimmick to come online.

That is too bad, yeah. Earliest you can use those slots are Barb 6/War 5, which is still very high for a gimmick.

There's isn't a defined exception that would specifically allow the invocation spell to be cast using a lower level slot, therefore the general Spellcasting rules apply, and it must use a slot of at least the minimum level for that spell.

Invocations don't use regular spell casting rules, though. For example, some Invocations let you cast leveled spells for 0 spell slots, which is less than the regular minimum level for that spell.

JNAProductions

2023-02-03, 07:33 PM

But when they let you cast them without a slot, it specifically says so.

Unoriginal

2023-02-03, 07:42 PM

But when they let you cast them without a slot, it specifically says so.

Indeed. And when they let you cast by using a warlock spell slot, it specifically says so too.

Kane0

2023-02-03, 07:48 PM

Or dont worry about using your spells in combat at all, just take utility spells like floating disk or levitate or whatever. If you get some other ability to use your spell slots without casting a spell (like eldeitch smite) thats a bonus.

Frogreaver

2023-02-04, 12:51 AM

Kane0

2023-02-04, 01:39 AM

Just a bladelock with reckless attack, danger sense and fallback rage when your short rest slots run dry is plenty potent. I dont think there are any subclasses that give you something at 3 that isnt reliant on rage so you can probably just stop at 2.

Talionis

2023-02-06, 10:57 PM

First it works better than any other full caster. Warlocks don’t have many slots. One of the silly things you need to remember is that most Gish characters cast a buff spell and attack. Warlocks can cast one or two buff spells at the beginning of combat and they will always be at the highest level.

Second because you are a Warlock you gave spells for out of combat. Often you’ll be able to recharge spell slots before your next combat so you can use your spells in social exploration ways with less concern out of combat. You also aren’t useless when you run out of spells.

Third, Armor of Agathys is good, but set your expectations. Even with Rage it will run out. Fire Shield is on the Fiend and Fire Genie spell list. It can be better than Armor of Agathys depending. Most invocations work while Raging, so try to pick Incocations that will work. The other thing is Rage may run out so having a Plan B that is a spell isn’t terrible.

Fourth, someone said you are a “switch hitter”. This is so true. Most Barbarians have little effective they can do at Range. You have Eldritch Blast. Yes you can’t cast EB and Rage but if you are focused on ranged combat you don’t need to Rage as much and you can save the Rage for a different combat.

Fifth Bear Totem isn’t required. Bludgeoning, Slashing, and Piercing is most of the damage types in game. If you have Fire Shiels you can get resistant to both Fire and Cold. Psychic damage is rare enough you shouldn’t need to spend all your class choices trying to get access to psychic resistance.

Sixth, you’ll probably be Pact of the Blade but you don’t need Thirsting Blade if you get five levels of Barbarian. So you can eventually change out Thirsting Blade for a different invocation. Regular Eztra Attack doesn’t stack, so at least in this combination you can swap out Thirsting Blade if you ever pick up 5 Barbarian.

Seventh, levels of Warlock over 11, 12 if you want Lifedrinker are overrated. Mystic Arcana are rough because you have to know more than one spell per level. Though Foresight is a heck of a capstone Gish spell to know.

I think I start Barbarian 1-3 but go mostly Warlock after. The constitution save is nice if you concentrate, but you could argue starting Warlock is good too since you get proficient in Wisdom saves.

It’s a very good build but you need to be okay with a buff round. You need to be okay not having a ton of Rages per day. .

Warpiglet-7

2023-02-08, 08:30 AM

I think if going for Barbarian/Warlock one should focus more one warlock. Barbarian is very front loaded, warlock is the better long term investment. Even 1-2 levels of barbarian for 2x rages per day and maybe reckless attack followed by some sweet short rest spells and attack cantrips on non-rage enconuters is going to work well. Being able to sometimes rage and tank all the damage and sometimes fireball the horde into oblivion could be cool. Added bonus that the fiend locks temp hp on kills would work great for the barbarian.

I took a fiend patron warlock to 5. He is blade pact. I have smite.

He is being driven wild by his patron and hence barbarian. I took one level then two.

That is probably all I will take for flavor and frankly effect! I am raging and reckless attacking with eldritch smites…

For level 8 I took more warlock and that is where I am going to stay.

bugsicle

2023-02-24, 12:44 PM

Fifth Bear Totem isn’t required. Bludgeoning, Slashing, and Piercing is most of the damage types in game. If you have Fire Shiels you can get resistant to both Fire and Cold. Psychic damage is rare enough you shouldn’t need to spend all your class choices trying to get access to psychic resistance.

Sixth, you’ll probably be Pact of the Blade but you don’t need Thirsting Blade if you get five levels of Barbarian. So you can eventually change out Thirsting Blade for a different invocation. Regular Eztra Attack doesn’t stack, so at least in this combination you can swap out Thirsting Blade if you ever pick up 5 Barbarian. ...

I think I start Barbarian 1-3 but go mostly Warlock after. The constitution save is nice if you concentrate, but you could argue starting Warlock is good too since you get proficient in Wisdom saves.

some interesting observations. what barbarian subclass would you go for at 3 besides bear totem? Beast looks nice if we don't care about bear's damage resistance, but on the other hand we'd need to sink 6 levels for Bestial Soul, and we don't have any other dips that would juice up the damage from claws.