Ownership is defined in-game?

[Inevitability]

A number of spells, like Scrying, become stronger if you have something that the target 'owns'. I've seen cheeky arguments that this requirement is trivial to fulfill: simply grab a copper piece, declare you are donating it to your target, and use it as the focus.

However, as it turns out, there's at least one place that specifically spells out what 'ownership' entails: the Marked Object spell from the Spell Compendium.


Upon casting this spell, you become attuned to the specific creature that owns the spell's focus item. (A creature is considered to own an item if it was the last creature to carry the item on its person for 24 hours or more. You do not count when considering what creature was last to carry an item.)

Just thought that was worth sharing, I've never seen someone talk about it.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Kenders: "What? That purse that you lost a few days ago? No, I'm pretty sure that's mine, I've had it on me for at least a few days."

[Thurbane]

Good pick up!

[ShurikVch]

As a side effect, it nixing all the silly little schemes revolving around the Astral Seed power: since you're specifically excluded from the ownership line - you wouldn't get the body which you stole

[AvatarVecna]

A number of spells, like Scrying, become stronger if you have something that the target 'owns'. I've seen cheeky arguments that this requirement is trivial to fulfill: simply grab a copper piece, declare you are donating it to your target, and use it as the focus.

However, as it turns out, there's at least one place that specifically spells out what 'ownership' entails: the Marked Object spell from the Spell Compendium.



Just thought that was worth sharing, I've never seen someone talk about it.

Gonna keep this in mind the next time someone brings up doors in a VoP discussion.

[ciopo]

Conclusion : no creature ever owns anything they are carrying? They own anything that they gave away but hasn't further changed hands? That's funny

Also about VoP, this means anything a VoP character carried for more than 24 hours but then gave away would possibly invalidate his VoP, so the only correct way for a VoP to never own anything is to never give anything away

It's funny

[Inevitability]

Conclusion : no creature ever owns anything they are carrying? They own anything that they gave away but hasn't further changed hands? That's funny

How are you getting that reading?

A creature obtains an item, carries it for 24 hours, becomes its owner, gives it away, and after 24 hours the new carrier becomes its owner. There's still weirdness here, but transferring ownership seems like a pretty straightforward two-person affair.

[Tzardok]

Conclusion : no creature ever owns anything they are carrying? They own anything that they gave away but hasn't further changed hands? That's funny


No, it's specifically you that does not count for ownership. Everybody else can own something, but not you. :smallbiggrin:

[Batcathat]

"Congratulations on your purchase of your new car. Before you start driving it, we do recommend you carry it around for 24 hours for legal reasons."

[AvatarVecna]

"Congratulations on your purchase of your new car. Before you start driving it, we do recommend you carry it around for 24 hours for legal reasons."

It's the 5 second rule but for legal ownership. 23 hours 59 minutes and 9 rounds but then it got nicked? Sorry, you never technically owned it. Magic itself does not acknowledge you as the owner.

[Saintheart]

It's the 5 second rule but for legal ownership.

It works for dropped Cheetos anyway.

[Quertus]

Wait… what with changing clothes, taking showers, etc, when’s the last time you actually had something on your Person for 24 hours?

EDIT:
Gonna keep this in mind the next time someone brings up doors in a VoP discussion.

I think (AFB) that the triggering phrase is “use”, not “own”, in the case of the VoP and the golden doorknob. Which sounds more like a title for a children’s book than a gaming-related phrase to me.

[Batcathat]

Wait… what with changing clothes, taking showers, etc, when’s the last time you actually had something on your Person for 24 hours?

To be fair, it doesn't seem to say anything about wearing it continuously for that long. Though with regularly changing clothes, it probably takes at least a couple of weeks before you own your new pants or whatever.

[Quertus]

To be fair, it doesn't seem to say anything about wearing it continuously for that long. Though with regularly changing clothes, it probably takes at least a couple of weeks before you own your new pants or whatever.

Touché. That said, with the lack of contiguous, how do you define the “last” person to do so in, say, a family that shares a basket?

[Inevitability]

Wait… what with changing clothes, taking showers, etc, when’s the last time you actually had something on your Person for 24 hours?

Given that this is D&D and the game actively encourages sleeping in the heaviest armor you can use, I wouldn't be surprised if PCs only end up changing clothes during explicit downtime (and when a cool new piece of loot is found, of course).

[Darg]

Given that this is D&D and the game actively encourages sleeping in the heaviest armor you can use, I wouldn't be surprised if PCs only end up changing clothes during explicit downtime (and when a cool new piece of loot is found, of course).

TBF, sleeping in medium/heavy armor two nights in a row leaves you exhausted. Even just fatigue is a major handicap. If the party is sleeping where they get ambushed all the time, maybe selecting a better spot would save the headache instead.

[Gnaeus]

TBF, sleeping in medium/heavy armor two nights in a row leaves you exhausted. Even just fatigue is a major handicap. If the party is sleeping where they get ambushed all the time, maybe selecting a better spot would save the headache instead.

It does, but curing fatigue is at most a charge from a wand of a first level spell, 2 charges for exhausted. I could see that being within normal adventuring costs for a party in dangerous environment.

[ShurikVch]

Wait… what with changing clothes, taking showers, etc, when’s the last time you actually had something on your Person for 24 hours?

TBF, sleeping in medium/heavy armor two nights in a row leaves you exhausted. Even just fatigue is a major handicap. If the party is sleeping where they get ambushed all the time, maybe selecting a better spot would save the headache instead.
"I don't sleep at all unless a magical effect fatigues or exhausts me, and I never fall asleep by accident.
And I haven't bathed since I was 1st level, because there's no mechanical disadvantage to being dirty." (https://www.reddit.com/r/oots/comments/lvafgz/i_found_this_on_my_old_computer_very_enlightening/)

[Ramza00]

A number of spells, like Scrying, become stronger if you have something that the target 'owns'. I've seen cheeky arguments that this requirement is trivial to fulfill: simply grab a copper piece, declare you are donating it to your target, and use it as the focus.

However, as it turns out, there's at least one place that specifically spells out what 'ownership' entails: the Marked Object spell from the Spell Compendium.



Just thought that was worth sharing, I've never seen someone talk about it.

You Kant Do This!


Backstory for my stupid pun. There is a famous philosopher who was big into logic Immanuel Kant (insufferable to read, his style of writing made lots of philosophy a chore to parse.)

Well Kant had two conceptions of property, the sensory property where you hold a thing also known as “sensible possession” (or empirical possession) of the property object. That and the second kind of property where you say that is mine which Kant called “intelligible” (or “rational”) possession of an object.

But since two or more men can claim things with their minds one thus in the long term need a government to sort these things out, and in the short-term there may be a mutual understood give and take between individuals aka a contract which is a mixture of physical force and mutual recognition / respect that will long term end up with a government.

I repeat you Kant do this!

[Gruftzwerg]

Sadly it's still not a global rule. It's a definition for the spells effect by RAW.

And extrapolating rules from spells should be taken with care. You know, it's magic. Spells often redefine stuff for their effects.



I've seen cheeky arguments that this requirement is trivial to fulfill: simply grab a copper piece, declare you are donating it to your target, and use it as the focus.


The target needs to accept the donation first in some kind of form. You can't forcefully donate something to someone if he doesn't want it. And as long as you don't actually donate (hand it over in some form), you sole have the intend to donate.

If you want something someone else owns, "stealing" is the sole option. If you didn't steal it, he didn't own it.

[Wildstag]

Wait… what with changing clothes, taking showers, etc, when’s the last time you actually had something on your Person for 24 hours?

EDIT:

I think (AFB) that the triggering phrase is “use”, not “own”, in the case of the VoP and the golden doorknob. Which sounds more like a title for a children’s book than a gaming-related phrase to me.

The phrase is "own or use any material possessions". Now what matters is how synonymous people consider the word "possession" and "ownership". If a possession must be an owned object/material, than it would have to fulfill the ownership definition.

So in the case of the VoP and the golden doorknob, if it hasn't been carried for 24 hours or more by a person, it's not owned by anyone.

[Quertus]

The phrase is "own or use any material possessions". Now what matters is how synonymous people consider the word "possession" and "ownership". If a possession must be an owned object/material, than it would have to fulfill the ownership definition.

So in the case of the VoP and the golden doorknob, if it hasn't been carried for 24 hours or more by a person, it's not owned by anyone.

No, clearly "possession" is only done by spirits. So something cannot be a "material possession" unless a spirit is inhabiting something of cloth.

[Darg]

It does, but curing fatigue is at most a charge from a wand of a first level spell, 2 charges for exhausted. I could see that being within normal adventuring costs for a party in dangerous environment.

I mean, sure. However if you're ambushed, spending 3 rounds to cast a spell from a wand to remove fatigue/6 rounds for exhaustion isn't going to be pretty. It's also touch range and not natively castable by a lot of medium/heavy armor wearers. Meaning you're tying up 2 characters even if you get the benefit of wearing your armor.

It's just simply more advantageous to simply remove the armor before sleeping and donning light armor (medium if you have endurance) and a shield as you sleep. You lose out on at minimum 4 AC but you don't have to worry about fatigue or exhaustion penalties which can be detrimental.

Ambushes are a problem regardless, but if ambushes are rare, the amount of money you save by not buying a wand is very significant. Especially when paladins having the craft anything feats would be so rare and clerics and druids are considered the default casters. Custom items are under the purview of the DM.

[Jay R]

This sort of approach is why the DM needs to have the final say.

If a player in my game tried to maintain that his PC has donated a copper piece to his scrying target, I would say, "The point is that if he has had something on his person for awhile, that item has a mystical connection to him, useful for scrying. A copper piece he's never held does not have that connection."

To somebody trying to use that definition to change the ownership of an item, I would say, "The legal definition of ownership doesn't change. This is an arcane connection, not a legal one."

If somebody carries something around for awhile, even if he never claims to have owned it, then that something has been near him, and can be used to help locate him. If a rogue steals something and carries it around for a week, it would carry his arcane imprint, not its actual owner's.