Mystic Ranger and Substitution levels

[Shinoskay]

How does the second level of moon warded ranger effect a mystic ranger, specifically with regards to caster level and spell progression but also all around?

[Saintheart]

Good question, because some take the view around here that a Mystic Ranger isn't actually a Ranger who can take substitution levels at all.

[pabelfly]

I'd say you can't, because the substitution levels tell you what you trade away at those levels to get your new class features, and Mystic Ranger gets its features at completely different levels.

For example, Moon-Warded Ranger gets Armor of the Senses at level 2 and loses Combat Style at that level, but Mystic Ranger gets that Combat Style at level 3.

[bean illus]

We all wish it did, but no.
Very few acfs or substitutions work. It stalls all other ranger vectors. Feat chains, prestige classes, yep.

I can't add mystic ranger to a build. It never works, even if I try. It's just a different build.

[Chronos]

Sword of the Arcane Order does work for a mystic ranger, though, and makes you very nearly a full wizard in addition to being a full martial. Until, that is, you hit double-digit levels and your casting progression just suddenly stops.

[Vizzerdrix]

As always, talk to your dm and see if they will allow you to mash them together anyways.

[lylsyly]

For example, Moon-Warded Ranger gets Armor of the Senses at level 2 and loses Combat Style at that level, but Mystic Ranger gets that Combat Style at level 3.

At our table you would gain Armor of the Senses at Level 3 when you can lose combat style. It's just common Sense and firmly in ask your DM territory..

[Anthrowhale]

Sword of the Arcane Order does work for a mystic ranger, though, and makes you very nearly a full wizard in addition to being a full martial. Until, that is, you hit double-digit levels and your casting progression just suddenly stops.

I've wondered about this in the past as well.

Mystic Ranger 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9 continues the trend if you can manage the skill requirements.

The reqs are:
Sublime Chord: Knowledge (arcana) 13 (Bard), Listen 13 (Ranger+Bard) , Perform 10 (Bard), Profession (astrologer) 6 (Ranger), Spellcraft 6 (Mystic Ranger)
Fochlucan Lyrist: Perform (string instruments) 13 (Bard+SC), Decipher Script 7 (Bard+SC), Diplomacy 7 (Bard+SC), Gather Information 7 (Bard), Knowledge (nature) 7 (Ranger+Bard+SC), Sleight of Hand 7 (Bard), Speak Language (druidic) 1 (cross class)

That's a total of 48 skill points by level 10 and 87 skill points by level 11. You need to average slightly more than 6 skill points/level and much of it is cross-class, so you need an Int of 12 (or int 10 + human) and either Able Learner or repeated use of retraining from PHB II. Overall, it looks doable as long as you didn't need skill points for something else.

Alternatively, I guess you could just do: Mystic Ranger 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Hexer 9 giving up on the high level MR spell progression entirely.

[liquidformat]

At our table you would gain Armor of the Senses at Level 3 when you can lose combat style. It's just common Sense and firmly in ask your DM territory..

This is my take on it. For the most part combining Mystic Ranger and other things should be fine as long as Mystic Ranger still has said abilities to trade it just might be at a different level.


I've wondered about this in the past as well.

Mystic Ranger 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9 continues the trend if you can manage the skill requirements.

The reqs are:
Sublime Chord: Knowledge (arcana) 13 (Bard), Listen 13 (Ranger+Bard) , Perform 10 (Bard), Profession (astrologer) 6 (Ranger), Spellcraft 6 (Mystic Ranger)
Fochlucan Lyrist: Perform (string instruments) 13 (Bard+SC), Decipher Script 7 (Bard+SC), Diplomacy 7 (Bard+SC), Gather Information 7 (Bard), Knowledge (nature) 7 (Ranger+Bard+SC), Sleight of Hand 7 (Bard), Speak Language (druidic) 1 (cross class)



Shooting Star Mystic Ranger does get Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft
Half-Elf Ranger gets Gather Information and Speak Language
You can also trade Handle Animal for Gather Information using skilled city dweller
Strangely Fangshield Ranger gets Diplomacy
I think it is a shame that Rangers can't qualify for Greensinger Initiate I think it is super flavorful and fun.
I believe there is a feat that can give you Perform and one that can give you Sleight of hand just don't think there is one that can give you both...


You could also look at taking Nar Demonbinder.

I have always enjoyed using Sword of the Arcane Order to do Arcane Archer and Swiftblade builds, both of which can be a lot of fun. Also in my experience when you ask a DM to use Sword of the Arcane Order so you can make an Arcane Archer build work they tend to be more forgiving of abusive shenanigans since you are already nerfing yourself.

[Anthrowhale]

Shooting Star Mystic Ranger does get Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft
Half-Elf Ranger gets Gather Information and Speak Language
You can also trade Handle Animal for Gather Information using skilled city dweller
Strangely Fangshield Ranger gets Diplomacy
I think it is a shame that Rangers can't qualify for Greensinger Initiate I think it is super flavorful and fun.
I believe there is a feat that can give you Perform and one that can give you Sleight of hand just don't think there is one that can give you both...


I believe shooting start technically doesn't work since you can't trade away Endurance. Separately, you might be thinking of the apprentice feat.

Really though, using the retraining rules seems quite adequate. That allows you to transfer up to 4 skill points from one skill to another skill that was or is a class skill on level up. You'll need to take the level of bard earlier but it works well.



I have always enjoyed using Sword of the Arcane Order to do Arcane Archer
I'd be tempted to squeeze it into another sequence given Imbue arrow is the real draw. For example, you could do Mystic Ranger 7/Arcane Archer 2/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/?? 4

Incidentally, I thought of another approach:
Mystic Ranger 9/Maho-Tsukai 1/Hexer 10.

Maho-Tsukai allows you to retroactively convert mystic ranger spellcasting into Maho-Tsukai spellcasting while leaving the rest of the Mystic Ranger chassis intact.

[liquidformat]

I believe shooting start technically doesn't work since you can't trade away Endurance. Separately, you might be thinking of the apprentice feat.

So the way that I have always played it and my DMs seem fine with is you can only trade away what you actually get and you get it at the level Mystic Ranger would get the thing you traded away. So you don't get the bonus spells, if you want to trade away endurance for weavespeak you can do it at level 4 instead of three.


I'd be tempted to squeeze it into another sequence given Imbue arrow is the real draw. For example, you could do Mystic Ranger 7/Arcane Archer 2/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/?? 4

I have played Combat Immediate Magic Conjurer 1/Mystic Shooting Star Ranger 12/Arcane Archer 2 For the last levels I was on the fence between Eldritch Knight or Abjurant Champion but never got that far. There really aren't great archer prcs especially with the nerf Order of the Bow Initiate got in CW.


Incidentally, I thought of another approach:
Mystic Ranger 9/Maho-Tsukai 1/Hexer 10.

Maho-Tsukai allows you to retroactively convert mystic ranger spellcasting into Maho-Tsukai spellcasting while leaving the rest of the Mystic Ranger chassis intact.
I have never played around with Maho-Tsukai all the taint prcs strike me more as NPCs.

[Chronos]

One complication with "you get the new ability at the same level as the ability you traded out" is that not all alternate class features work that way. The Wildshape Ranger, for instance, loses Combat Style at 2, and instead gets Fast Movement at 1 and Wildshape at 5. How would that combine with Mystic Ranger? Well, aside from your DM throwing both books at your head so fast that the pages of the two get stuck together.

[liquidformat]

One complication with "you get the new ability at the same level as the ability you traded out" is that not all alternate class features work that way. The Wildshape Ranger, for instance, loses Combat Style at 2, and instead gets Fast Movement at 1 and Wildshape at 5. How would that combine with Mystic Ranger? Well, aside from your DM throwing both books at your head so fast that the pages of the two get stuck together.

This one is actually the most straightforward and I have never had a dm complain about it.

Predator Ranger says:
Lose: Combat style, improved combat style, combat style mastery.
Gain: Wild shape (as druid; Small or Medium animals only), fast movement (as barbarian).

Nowhere does it mention at what level you gain combat style and its upgraded versions it just says you trade them away for fast movement level 1 and wild shape (small and medium) starting at level 5. That is super straightforward.

The only real issue is the argument that Predator and Mystic Ranger are Variant Classes and therefore can't be mixed together. However, I don't think there is a RAW source that says that you can't combine multiple Variant Classes and in practice I have never come across a dm who has an issue with it.

[Wildstag]

The only real issue is the argument that Predator and Mystic Ranger are Variant Classes and therefore can't be mixed together. However, I don't think there is a RAW source that says that you can't combine multiple Variant Classes and in practice I have never come across a dm who has an issue with it.

Raw says you can't mix two variant classes simultaneously. On page 48, the sidebar states the following...


Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky subject, and the DM has to make rulings based on what is appropriate for his campaign. In cases where a single class offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing between different versions of the same class (just as a character can’t multiclass between different versions of specialist wizards). For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger— multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay.

So for this situation, you would multiclass between Predator and Mystic ranger except Dragon 336 page 105 states...


The mystic ranger is a variant ranger. Unless otherwise noted, a mystic ranger advances in the same manner as a ranger (same Hit Die, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skill points, and so on). When a character elects to take a level of ranger or mystic ranger, he may not later take levels in the other class. This prevents the character from gaining the benefits of a 1st-level ranger twice.

So unlike other Variant classes, the Mystic Ranger (and interestingly, the Wild Defender) cannot multiclass with other Ranger variants. This bars the Mystic Ranger from also taking levels in Predator Ranger.

[Rebel7284]

Speak Language (druidic) 1 (cross class)


I am fairly sure that you can't just pick up secret languages with two skill points like that...

With that said, Hellbred can certainly know druidic and if Planescape races are on the table, so do the Shad. Arguably Pearl of Speech might work too.

[redking]

As a variant class, you probably can't use regular Ranger ACFs. I'd allow it if the ACF replaced a Mystic Ranger ability that was exactly the same as the Ranger ability and given at the same level. Otherwise, no.

[Anthrowhale]

I am fairly sure that you can't just pick up secret languages with two skill points like that...
Some DMs may allow it with suitable roleplay/backstory. It's not crazy for a mystic ranger in particular to be on significantly friendly terms with a druid.


With that said, Hellbred can certainly know druidic and if Planescape races are on the table, so do the Shad. Arguably Pearl of Speech might work too.
Yep.

[lylsyly]

Tibbits Too!!

[Chronos]

Quoth Anthrowhale:

Some DMs may allow it with suitable roleplay/backstory. It's not crazy for a mystic ranger in particular to be on significantly friendly terms with a druid.
I'd actually expect being friendly with druids would make it less likely for a non-druid to know Druidic, not more. Teaching Druidic to non-druids is a horrible taboo for a druid, so the only non-druids who would know the language would be those who have no respect for druidic traditions, and have "stolen" the language through duress or wiles.

And it's tough to fit in, but I would rule that another way for a non-druid to learn Druidic would be the Loremaster prestige class.

[liquidformat]

Raw says you can't mix two variant classes simultaneously. On page 48, the sidebar states the following...

Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky subject, and the DM has to make rulings based on what is appropriate for his campaign. In cases where a single class offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing between different versions of the same class (just as a character can’t multiclass between different versions of specialist wizards). For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger— multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay.

Um maybe you are misunderstanding what I was saying, I was not suggesting multiclassing between predator and mystic ranger, even if you could do that it sounds like a waste of time and a bad build. I was saying you take mystic ranger and replace your combat styles with faster movement and wild shape as is suggested in 'predator'.

[Wildstag]

I knew what you meant, but it's explicitly anti-RAW. Predator Ranger isn't a substitution level subsystem. It's a variant class. By RAW, it doesn't work with Mystic Ranger or other variants.

[liquidformat]

I knew what you meant, but it's explicitly anti-RAW. Predator Ranger isn't a substitution level subsystem. It's a variant class. By RAW, it doesn't work with Mystic Ranger or other variants.

And yet your RAW reference says nothing of the sort...

[Darg]

And yet your RAW reference says nothing of the sort...

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

It compares variant classes to specialist wizards. Sure, nothing says you can't combine features of variants, but it goes against the obvious intent.

This is especially relevant when sneak attack fighter and thug fighter had to be given explicit permission to stack benefits.

[Wildstag]

And yet your RAW reference says nothing of the sort...

You're going to need to do some actual explaining to defend that, especially when I've cited book, page, and paragraph. What people call "Predator Ranger" is explicitly listed under the "Other Class Variants" subheader, so the idea that it isn't a Variant Class defies logic. Further, Dragon 336 explicitly states that a Mystic Ranger may not take levels in other Ranger classes. Thus, even within the text of "Multiclassing and Variant Classes", it'd still be explicitly forbidden by the rules to multiclass into both variant classes.

Like, unless you have some obscure text that says otherwise, by RAW you can't mix the two without DM fiat.

[liquidformat]

You're going to need to do some actual explaining to defend that, especially when I've cited book, page, and paragraph. What people call "Predator Ranger" is explicitly listed under the "Other Class Variants" subheader, so the idea that it isn't a Variant Class defies logic. Further, Dragon 336 explicitly states that a Mystic Ranger may not take levels in other Ranger classes. Thus, even within the text of "Multiclassing and Variant Classes", it'd still be explicitly forbidden by the rules to multiclass into both variant classes.

Like, unless you have some obscure text that says otherwise, by RAW you can't mix the two without DM fiat.

So let me put this out here since you still seem stuck on it. I am not arguing to multiclass into both types of ranger variant. Just drop the whole multiclass thing no one but you is even mentioning it has nothing to do with the conversation it's just a strawman argument so drop it.

Back to the can you combine two Variant Classes into one class. I have never seen any RAW source saying you can't combine them. So without a source saying so I see no reason you can't combine them as long as you retain the class features in question to be traded away.

[Rebel7284]

So let me put this out here since you still seem stuck on it. I am not arguing to multiclass into both types of ranger variant. Just drop the whole multiclass thing no one but you is even mentioning it has nothing to do with the conversation it's just a strawman argument so drop it.

Back to the can you combine two Variant Classes into one class. I have never seen any RAW source saying you can't combine them. So without a source saying so I see no reason you can't combine them as long as you retain the class features in question to be traded away.

In general, the rules tell you what you CAN do, listing everything you can't do would be an infinite list after all. :smallwink:

I think the comments about multi-classing is relevant as it shines a bit of a light on how the designers viewed variant classes. After all, if you could just combine them, there wouldn't need to be a note on multiclassing as you would just be able to combine into a single class.... this is as close as we can get to rules as intended.

With that said, we are trying to extrapolate intent from a few related lines, there are no hard rules on this. Ask your DM if this works in your campaign. Depending on overall optimization level of the group, this can be absolutely appropriate or grossly overpowered. :smallsmile:

[Wildstag]

So let me put this out here since you still seem stuck on it. I am not arguing to multiclass into both types of ranger variant. Just drop the whole multiclass thing no one but you is even mentioning it has nothing to do with the conversation it's just a strawman argument so drop it.

Back to the can you combine two Variant Classes into one class. I have never seen any RAW source saying you can't combine them. So without a source saying so I see no reason you can't combine them as long as you retain the class features in question to be traded away.

Unearthed Arcana makes it pretty clear the intent (and also just by the writing) that variant classes don't mix unless specified otherwise. For example, Sneak Attack Fighter explicitly says it can be combined with Thug fighter. No other variant class has that text, and if the intent was to mix, that statement wouldn't even be needed, it'd be implicit. Further, various variant classes specify (well, Ranger variants specifically) that they can't be multiclassed with the base class. And lastly, by including the rules about multiclassing variant classes, it excludes the potential for mixing them.

You're basically writing homebrew that is explicitly counter to multiple facets of the rules and calling it valid. If you or your GM want to rule things in that homebrewed way, all power to ya, but it's a stance that is very clearly homebrew.