HexClock: races and other stuff

[yisopo]

Materials: all the books
Levels: from 3 to ~12
Party composition: unknown
Primary role: controller

I would like to play a Clockwork Sorcerer with 2 levels of Hexblade and I have some questions:

1) Which races are the best? In particular, I looking for options other than custom lineage/origins.

2) 2 levels of Warlock or 1 level of Warlock + Eldritch Adept feat? Which is better?

3) I will follow this guide for the spell progression: https://tabletopbuilds.com/flagship-build-clockwork-soul-sorcerer/ Is it good? Do you have some changes to propose about it?

[Mastikator]

1) tortle, skip mage armor. Wear a shield (hexblade is proficient), base AC 19. Also removes pressure from dex to armor. Shield boosts it to 24 for a round.

2) 2 levels of warlock is cheaper than spending a feat that could've been a charisma boost

[Opsimos]

Tortle seems unnecessary. You already have medium armor prof and achieving 14 dex is simple. Moreover, the suggested Mark of Shadow Elf grants access to Pass without trace which solves Stealth issues.
Alternatively, apart from the excellent CLineage or VHuman you could consider the Winged Tiefling for Flight in Medium Armor.

I recommend taking two levels of Warlock for the additional first level spellslot and to save a feat. You can turn that slot into 3 uses of shield or absorb elements or silvery barbs on a standard adventuring day, or into sorcery points should you find yourself not using it.

[RogueJK]

Goblin lets you stay at range and BA Hide (great for a caster), while also being able to wade into melee with Booming Blade + BA Disengage if needed.

Or, Winged Tiefling is the only option for racial flight with medium armor.

Otherwise, I'd do Shadar-Kai or Eladrin for the mobility/emergency escape of a BA teleport without having to spend your limited Sorcerer spells known on Misty Step.


Whichever race you pick, I'd start Clockwork Sorcerer 1/Hexblade 2, taking Sorcerer first for the CON save proficiency for Concentration purposes. Grab Repelling Blast for the forced movement, and then either Grasp of Hadar for even further forced movement options, or Agonizing Blast for added EB damage, or a utility pick like Misty Visions or Mask of Many Faces.




2 levels of warlock is cheaper than spending a feat that could've been a charisma boost

Especially since you're going to be 1-2 level behind in ASIs either way. Since the OP doesn't want to do VHuman/CLineage, you don't want to have to wait until Character Level 9 to either get your first CHA boost or get your first Invocation.

[Mastikator]

From a flavor perspective shadar-kai fits well with hexblade, and is very strong. You can even pick up elven accuracy which stacks very well with hexblade's curse.

Warforged fits well with clockwork soul, and the +1 AC is very juicy. 14 dex, half plate and shield gets you a resting AC of 20. Scale mail and a shield (cheap, easily available at level 2) would be 19 AC. Warforged are robust.

[RogueJK]

Keep in mind that you can stack Hexblade's Curse on a Magic Missile, to be doing 3*(1d4+1+PB) damage.

In Tier 1, that's even more than an Agonizing Eldritch Blast with Hexblade's Curse, plus it auto-hits. That could potentially be a worthwhile usage of your 1st level Pact slots that recharge on a short rest, especially if fighting something with a higher AC, or when facing a caster on which you want to force 3x Concentration checks instead of just 1x.

With Hexblade's Curse:
1st Level Magic Missile: 3*(1d4+1+2) = 16.5 average damage (auto)
Eldritch Blast with 16-17 CHA: 1d10+3+2 = 10.5 average damage (could miss, but also could crit for 16 damage)
Eldritch Blast with 18 CHA: 1d10+4+2 = 11.5 damage (could miss, but also could crit for 17 damage)

But starting in Tier 2, it begins to drop off compared to EB thanks to the second attack, unless you didn't take Agonizing Blast or you're upcasting MM into a Level 2+ slot, which likely isn't worth it. That'd be a good time to swap it out for a higher level spell known, unless you want to keep it around just for the auto-hitting Concentration checks. Otherwise, it's still a potentially handy use for the first few levels.

[yisopo]

Thank you everyone for the precious advices.

First of all, 1 Warlock vs Eldritch Adept feat. This was easy since you are unanimous. I will avoid the feat! :smallbiggrin:

Regarding the races, I want to avoid CLineage because I'm playing one right now (and my DM doesn't allow custom origin rule).

As others have said, I see no benefit with Tortle.

The races I prefer:

1) Harengon. I really love the initiative bonus, it is like half Alert feat. And going first it is so good for a controller. Moreover, the rabbit hop as a bonus action is great for defence: It is like Misty Step, but I can rabbit hop and cast a non-cantrip spell the same turn.

2) Winged Tiefling. Flight! Nothing to add here. :smallsmile:

3) Shadar-Kai. Misty Step but (as the rabbit hop) I can cast a non-cantrip spell the same turn! The resistance to all damage is situational but good. Moreover, the trance is very good for converting Worlock short rest slots for sorcerer points!

Others have suggested Warforged, Goblin and Eladrin. Am I missing other interesting races?

[yisopo]

Whichever race you pick, I'd start Clockwork Sorcerer 1/Hexblade 2, taking Sorcerer first for the CON save proficiency for Concentration purposes.
I totally agree.


Grab Repelling Blast for the forced movement, and then either Grasp of Hadar for even further forced movement options, or Agonizing Blast for added EB damage, or a utility pick like Misty Visions or Mask of Many Faces.
I'm thinking to take Repelling Blast and Agonizing Blast.

[Mastikator]

3) Shadar-Kai. Misty Step but (as the rabbit hop) I can cast a non-cantrip spell the same turn! The resistance to all damage is situational but good. Moreover, the trance is very good for converting Worlock short rest slots for sorcerer points!


A word of caution for any coffeelock ideas: your DM might slightly beat you to death.

[yisopo]

A word of caution for any coffeelock ideas: your DM might slightly beat you to death.
:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I don't know if this makes sense, but I would avoid being Coffelock since I won't take extreme approaches like not sleeping.

[tiornys]

I agree with 2 levels of Warlock (and with Repelling + Agonizing Blasts), and the races you're looking at (there are a couple other races I think are on par with those but none clearly better). Personally I'd lean toward Harengon or Eladrin.

re: spell progression, the main things to consider are where your DM might make a spell less usable, and also what level of tech/shenanigans your table is comfortable with. Standout considerations:

Magic Stone's value is largely tied to your ability to get independent creatures to throw them, notably the 3 tiny creatures you can get from a 4th-level Tiny Servants spell. If you don't expect to use Tiny Servants or hirelings, and especially if you don't have melee allies who might use them in a pinch, consider grabbing a different Warlock cantrip.
A lot of Rope Trick's value is tied to its potential combat bunker use, and the rest is in its ability to provide a safe short rest spot. If these uses are questionable at your table consider Levitate, Enlarge/Reduce, or maybe Pyrotechnics (if you have good ways to ensure a torch can get where you want it) or Enhance Ability in its place.
As with most illusion spells, Phantasmal Force relies heavily on DM interpretation. If your DM isn't good with standard ways of disabling a creatures sight with the spell you should probably take something else.
If you decide against taking Tiny Servant, keeping Dispel Magic or grabbing Fly or Slow are great options.

Also, if you go with a race that doesn't have a bonus action disengage/hop/teleport option, and you also don't pick up Fey Touched, you probably want to learn Misty Step as a Sorcerer spell.

[Damon_Tor]

Keep in mind that you can stack Hexblade's Curse on a Magic Missile, to be doing 3*(1d4+1+PB) damage.

Just a note, I've never met a DM who allows the "nuclear missile" at the table. It's like recursive simulacrum wishes: only technically possible.

[yisopo]

Personally I'd lean toward Harengon or Eladrin.
I'm coursious why you prefer Eladrin over Shadar-Kai. Thematic or mechanical reasons?


re: spell progression, the main things to consider are where your DM might make a spell less usable, and also what level of tech/shenanigans your table is comfortable with. Standout considerations:

Magic Stone's value is largely tied to your ability to get independent creatures to throw them, notably the 3 tiny creatures you can get from a 4th-level Tiny Servants spell. If you don't expect to use Tiny Servants or hirelings, and especially if you don't have melee allies who might use them in a pinch, consider grabbing a different Warlock cantrip.
A lot of Rope Trick's value is tied to its potential combat bunker use, and the rest is in its ability to provide a safe short rest spot. If these uses are questionable at your table consider Levitate, Enlarge/Reduce, or maybe Pyrotechnics (if you have good ways to ensure a torch can get where you want it) or Enhance Ability in its place.
As with most illusion spells, Phantasmal Force relies heavily on DM interpretation. If your DM isn't good with standard ways of disabling a creatures sight with the spell you should probably take something else.
If you decide against taking Tiny Servant, keeping Dispel Magic or grabbing Fly or Slow are great options.

Also, if you go with a race that doesn't have a bonus action disengage/hop/teleport option, and you also don't pick up Fey Touched, you probably want to learn Misty Step as a Sorcerer spell.
Very precious advices, thank you. I have taken note of all of them!

[yisopo]

Just a note, I've never met a DM who allows the "nuclear missile" at the table. It's like recursive simulacrum wishes: only technically possible.
I'm curious: What is the nuclear missile? Is it just Hexblade's Curse + Magic Missile? If so, I don't see it as OP and certainly not even remotely comparable to Wish + Simulacrum.

[CTurbo]

Half-Elf is still probably THE go-to race for any Cha class so you couldn't go wrong there.

I really like the Aasimar though. Very flavorful race and perfect for any Cha class.

Yuan-Ti is another that hasn't been mentioned. Some DMs ban it for being OP so ask first, but with Magic Resistance, poison immunity, and a few extra spells, it's a great choice.

[RogueJK]

I'm curious: What is the nuclear missile? Is it just Hexblade's Curse + Magic Missile? If so, I don't see it as OP and certainly not even remotely comparable to Wish + Simulacrum.

That's the Nuclear Missile Lite. The full "Nuclear Missile" shenanigan is Magic Missile + Hexblade's Curse + Empowered Evocation, upcast into the highest level slot possible, on a Hexblade 1/Evocation Wizard 10+.

See https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170

[tiornys]

I'm coursious why you prefer Eladrin over Shadar-Kai. Thematic or mechanical reasons?
Fun factor. Shadar-Kai is undeniably more powerful, but resistance to damage is boring compared with most of the effects the Eladrin can pick from.

[Keravath]

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I don't know if this makes sense, but I would avoid being Coffelock since I won't take extreme approaches like not sleeping.

Even taking the coffee lock light approach you suggested, 4 hour trance + 4 short rests, will generate 8 sorcery points for a level 2 warlock or 16 for a level 3 warlock.

For the level 2 warlock+ X sorcerer, this translates into 4 extra level 1 spell slots each day (at sorcerer level 2+) or 2 level 2+ 1 level 1 (at sorcerer level 3+) or eventually 1 x level 3 + 1x level 2 (at sorcerer level 5+).

The limiting factor is that you can't have more sorcery points than your sorcerer level saved at one time so saving the 5 sorcery points needed to buy a third level slot requires 5 levels in sorcerer.

It isn't game breaking but it will give your sorlock more spell slots each day than any other character. 4 extra first level slots means 4 extra castings of the shield spell for example. So, it is worth checking with the DM whether they will allow it or not.

[tiornys]

Even taking the coffee lock light approach you suggested, 4 hour trance + 4 short rests, will generate 8 sorcery points for a level 2 warlock or 16 for a level 3 warlock.

For the level 2 warlock+ X sorcerer, this translates into 4 extra level 1 spell slots each day (at sorcerer level 2+) or 2 level 2+ 1 level 1 (at sorcerer level 3+) or eventually 1 x level 3 + 1x level 2 (at sorcerer level 5+).

The limiting factor is that you can't have more sorcery points than your sorcerer level saved at one time so saving the 5 sorcery points needed to buy a third level slot requires 5 levels in sorcerer.

It isn't game breaking but it will give your sorlock more spell slots each day than any other character. 4 extra first level slots means 4 extra castings of the shield spell for example. So, it is worth checking with the DM whether they will allow it or not.
This is focusing on the gains without considering the costs. A Warlock 2/Sorcerer 3 has sacrificed 2 Sorcerer levels to gain these short rest slots. Compared with a level 3 Sorcerer, a level 5 Sorcerer has +2 SP, +1 2nd level spell slot and +2 3rd level spell slots. At direct exchange rates, this is 10 total SP for 2 more SP/1 more 1st level slot than what the Warlock is doing by "abusing" the system, and meanwhile the Sorcerer 5 has access to stronger spells overall (and therefore reasons to not exchange down). It's not until level 12 where the Sorcerer 12 isn't gaining spell slots/SP worth more than 8 SP over a Sorcerer 10 -- in this case it's a break even L6 slot + 2 SP.

Now, there are of course other benefits to going Warlock 2/Sorcerer X vs. straight Sorcerer, but this is just to point out that it takes more than a little bit of tealocking to push power levels beyond what an equivalent level character is already capable of possessing.

[Keravath]

1) Harengon. I really love the initiative bonus, it is like half Alert feat. And going first it is so good for a controller. Moreover, the rabbit hop as a bonus action is great for defence: It is like Misty Step, but I can rabbit hop and cast a non-cantrip spell the same turn.


One point to note. Rabbit hop is NOT like Misty Step.

It has this extra sentence: "You can use this trait only if your speed is greater than 0."

This means that the trait can't be used by a character that is grappled or restrained because the effect sets their speed to zero. The most common use of these abilities is to escape a grapple/restrained condition but the hop doesn't work for that.

The Shadar-Kai ability does work to escape grapples/restrained. Shadar-kai is also a good fit with the shadowfell connection described for the Hexblade warlock. The main benefits of the race appear to be the bonus action teleport and resistance to necrotic damage though you also get two free tool or weapon proficiencies which you can swap every time you finish a long rest. Mostly a ribbon for a Hexblade which has martial weapon proficiencies already unless your DM makes use of tool proficiencies.

Eladrin also get Fey Step allowing a bonus action teleport too with one of four possible effects which might come in handy from time to time but you need to decide at the beginning of the day which season you want to associate with which likely means that in practice you'll likely choose whichever looks the most useful and stick to it.

Comparing Eladrin to Shadar-kai they are mostly equivalent except the Shadar-Kai get resistance to all damage for a turn when they teleport plus permanent resistance to necrotic damage while the Eladrin have four possible choices for effects but you'll likely find yourself choosing one most of the time and sticking with it.

If you want an option to do significant damage in the first round then bugbear could be an option. They also get the stealth skill and the ability to move through tight spaces and make melee attacks on their turn with an increased reach if you plan to use melee attacks. However, even if you don't, the bugbear adds 2d6 to every attack that hits in the first round of combat against creatures that haven't taken a turn yet (so getting a decent initiative roll for a bugbear is a good idea).

A level 2 warlock/ 3 sorcerer bugbear at level 5 could fire off agonizing blast plus quicken another one for a possible 4 x (d10 + 2d6 + cha) damage on the first round of combat - and it only scales up from there. There are also some cool role playing options for trying to fit in as a bugbear.

There are a number of races in Monsters of the Multiverse with useful abilities that could be fun to play depending on what mechanical and role playing features you like. Tabaxi have extra movement along with skills. Goblin - bonus action Disengage or Hide plus the ability to add your proficiency bonus to damage to the target but you can only do that proficiency bonus times/day - doesn't cost an action though. Fairy - flying plus extra spells.

[yisopo]

Half-Elf is still probably THE go-to race for any Cha class so you couldn't go wrong there.
Half-Elf are good for the ASI and the Trance. But my DM is quite generous during the character creation with the ability scores. And Eladrin/Shadar-Kai have Trance too but they offer more.


I really like the Aasimar though. Very flavorful race and perfect for any Cha class.
Mechanically I'm not too impress with Aasimar for the Sorlock. And thematically I would prefer Shadar-Kai or Tiefling.


Yuan-Ti is another that hasn't been mentioned. Some DMs ban it for being OP so ask first, but with Magic Resistance, poison immunity, and a few extra spells, it's a great choice.
I totally agree. Very strong option.


That's the Nuclear Missile Lite. The full "Nuclear Missile" shenanigan is Magic Missile + Hexblade's Curse + Empowered Evocation, upcast into the highest level slot possible, on a Hexblade 1/Evocation Wizard 10+.

See https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170
Maybe with Empowered Evocation some DMs could question it, but without I think the combo is fine.


Fun factor. Shadar-Kai is undeniably more powerful, but resistance to damage is boring compared with most of the effects the Eladrin can pick from.
True. :-)


Even taking the coffee lock light approach you suggested, 4 hour trance + 4 short rests, will generate 8 sorcery points for a level 2 warlock or 16 for a level 3 warlock.

For the level 2 warlock+ X sorcerer, this translates into 4 extra level 1 spell slots each day (at sorcerer level 2+) or 2 level 2+ 1 level 1 (at sorcerer level 3+) or eventually 1 x level 3 + 1x level 2 (at sorcerer level 5+).

The limiting factor is that you can't have more sorcery points than your sorcerer level saved at one time so saving the 5 sorcery points needed to buy a third level slot requires 5 levels in sorcerer.

It isn't game breaking but it will give your sorlock more spell slots each day than any other character. 4 extra first level slots means 4 extra castings of the shield spell for example. So, it is worth checking with the DM whether they will allow it or not.
I agree with Tiornys here. We are paying for this feature.


One point to note. Rabbit hop is NOT like Misty Step.

It has this extra sentence: "You can use this trait only if your speed is greater than 0."

This means that the trait can't be used by a character that is grappled or restrained because the effect sets their speed to zero. The most common use of these abilities is to escape a grapple/restrained condition but the hop doesn't work for that.
I agree. You can use Misty Step in order to escaper grapple/restrained condition VS you can use Rabbit Hop and then cast a spell.


The Shadar-Kai ability does work to escape grapples/restrained. Shadar-kai is also a good fit with the shadowfell connection described for the Hexblade warlock. The main benefits of the race appear to be the bonus action teleport and resistance to necrotic damage though you also get two free tool or weapon proficiencies which you can swap every time you finish a long rest. Mostly a ribbon for a Hexblade which has martial weapon proficiencies already unless your DM makes use of tool proficiencies.

Eladrin also get Fey Step allowing a bonus action teleport too with one of four possible effects which might come in handy from time to time but you need to decide at the beginning of the day which season you want to associate with which likely means that in practice you'll likely choose whichever looks the most useful and stick to it.

Comparing Eladrin to Shadar-kai they are mostly equivalent except the Shadar-Kai get resistance to all damage for a turn when they teleport plus permanent resistance to necrotic damage while the Eladrin have four possible choices for effects but you'll likely find yourself choosing one most of the time and sticking with it.
Great analysis.

If he wasn't a Sorlock, I would probably think the best choice would be Winged Tiefling. But with the Trance converting Warlock short rest slots into sorcerer points I think Shadar-Kai could be the best.


There are a number of races in Monsters of the Multiverse with useful abilities that could be fun to play depending on what mechanical and role playing features you like. Tabaxi have extra movement along with skills. Goblin - bonus action Disengage or Hide plus the ability to add your proficiency bonus to damage to the target but you can only do that proficiency bonus times/day - doesn't cost an action though. Fairy - flying plus extra spells.
I agree, all fun races to use here.

[Willie the Duck]

I'm curious: What is the nuclear missile? Is it just Hexblade's Curse + Magic Missile? If so, I don't see it as OP and certainly not even remotely comparable to Wish + Simulacrum.

Maybe with Empowered Evocation some DMs could question it, but without I think the combo is fine.

It's not about whether it breaks the game or anything (although the all-pieces version of it certainly tries hard). It is whether a DM will let it happen. It's predicated on the technically-correct interpretation that all magic missiles in a given casting roll the same d4 (thus allowing all damage bonuses to that one roll to happen for each missile). In my experience, pretty much no one plays that way -- particularly people who played earlier editions, but also frankly most people who want to play arcane casters since they enjoy the experience of rolling all the little d4s like they like rolling their fireball damage and hoping they beat the curve. The only time (again, in my experience) RAW MM rolling seems to occur is when someone has read one of these builds on the internet, wants to use it (possibly abuse it), and at that point points out the specific wording that allows it. And (once more just in my experience) the DM almost inevitably says 'no, we're not going to change how we've been doing this for years just so you can get your [adjective ranging from 'silly little' to 'cheesy' to 'BS'] exploit.'

In the end, none of us know what OP's DM would do, we can only speculate. My only advise would be not to assume that they will.

[Keravath]

If he wasn't a Sorlock, I would probably think the best choice would be Winged Tiefling. But with the Trance converting Warlock short rest slots into sorcerer points I think Shadar-Kai could be the best.


I'd check with your DM whether he will allow you to combine a 4 hour trance with 4x short rests to complete an 8 hour long rest for other characters. Allowing consecutive rests to be broken into smaller rests is entirely at the DMs discretion. A long rest is a period of 8 hours and a short rest is a period of at least an hour so the DM can decide that a four hour period of resting could constitute just one short rest or that a 4 hour trance plus 4 hours of additional rest would only constitute one long rest (even if the elf could have finished after 4).

So either way - check with your DM before creating a character where you really want to use this feature.

[yisopo]

It's not about whether it breaks the game or anything (although the all-pieces version of it certainly tries hard). It is whether a DM will let it happen. It's predicated on the technically-correct interpretation that all magic missiles in a given casting roll the same d4 (thus allowing all damage bonuses to that one roll to happen for each missile). In my experience, pretty much no one plays that way -- particularly people who played earlier editions, but also frankly most people who want to play arcane casters since they enjoy the experience of rolling all the little d4s like they like rolling their fireball damage and hoping they beat the curve. The only time (again, in my experience) RAW MM rolling seems to occur is when someone has read one of these builds on the internet, wants to use it (possibly abuse it), and at that point points out the specific wording that allows it. And (once more just in my experience) the DM almost inevitably says 'no, we're not going to change how we've been doing this for years just so you can get your [adjective ranging from 'silly little' to 'cheesy' to 'BS'] exploit.'

In the end, none of us know what OP's DM would do, we can only speculate. My only advise would be not to assume that they will.
Oh, I got it now. I misinterpreted the original post. Thank you for the clarification. It makes sense now.


I'd check with your DM whether he will allow you to combine a 4 hour trance with 4x short rests to complete an 8 hour long rest for other characters. Allowing consecutive rests to be broken into smaller rests is entirely at the DMs discretion. A long rest is a period of 8 hours and a short rest is a period of at least an hour so the DM can decide that a four hour period of resting could constitute just one short rest or that a 4 hour trance plus 4 hours of additional rest would only constitute one long rest (even if the elf could have finished after 4).

So either way - check with your DM before creating a character where you really want to use this feature.
I think it should be possible to get at least 3 short rests in 4 hours of rest. But you are right, it is worth asking to my DM.