Are Double Throwing Axes Underrated?

[DrFunkenstein]

TL;DR: Double Throwing Axes aren't great as a primary weapon, but they ARE a good secondary option for STR-based combatants; I haven't noticed much recognition of that.

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I think 5e got a lot of stuff right, and 2 of my favorites are 2-weapon combat and Thrown weapons. I'm happy they've disentangled STR and DEX in ranged weapon attacks (compare to 3.X), and given both Abilities a straightforward ranged option: STR for thrown, DEX for projectile. Great streamlining.

I also love how 2-weapon combat is now open to anyone without penalty (glares at punitive Feat trees). Combining this and STR-based Throwing, 2 Hand Axes become an attractive backup for STR-based combatants who can't quite make it to their target, which is a frequent-enough occurrence in my experience.

If you're playing by strict equipment-switching rules, this is diminished, though still useful for opening rounds. It's often in the opening round that opponents start spaced apart and must close before melee attacking. Having to spend your entire first round just on movement isn't fun.

For this reason, my Tempest Cleric and Barbarian/Paladin made it their Standard Operating Procedure to have a Hand Axe in each hand whenever they were preparing for trouble. They'd often be too far from targets when things got hot to use their Greatswords the first round. Thanks to their axes, they could still potentially do 2d6+STR before using their Interaction to draw their sword and be ready for the rest of the fight (my Tempest Cleric was often trying to conserve spell slots and rely on less limited stuff to get through multiple encounters per day).

If the axes proved unnecessary, my characters would drop them as a non-action, use their Interaction to draw their Greatsword, and proceed normally. The downside is tiny, and the upside is having a fully economized opening round. Yes please.

If you're playing fast and loose with equipment switching, 2 Hand Axes become even more handy, though definitely not OP. One thing I personally think 5e got wrong is sticking to 3.X stingy simulationism for switching equipment. I personally let players switch any/all handheld items as 1 Interaction; you can put away your bow and arrow and take out your sword and shield as a single Interaction if you want. It keeps the action flowing and is more fun; it sucks as a player to waste one of your precious turns on something as anodyne as equipment logistics.

I realize this diminishes the Dual Wielder Feat, but that particular benefit feels like a Feat Tax for 2-weapon combatants, and I don't like Feat Taxes. It hasn't come up, but I'd be open to homebrewing an alternative to that benefit if a player was keen on it.

I tried to build a Core Rules character around Double Throwing Axes, and wasn't satisfied. The best I came up with was mostly a Battle Master who'd debuff targets. Not terrible, but not really what I was looking for.

I think their lack of primary weapon/build potential helps explain why I haven't seen much discussion of how useful they can be. It also might be that people are adhering to the equipment switching rules strictly which definitely cuts into my point. That said, even when I was playing by those strict rules, I've had multiple characters settle on this as a worth-while opening round option.

Or maybe everyone knows this already and I just missed the memo.

Thoughts?

[animorte]

Kensei Monk might work. You just need some kind of returning weapon. Anything that can summon weapons generally require some form of additional action to do so. Hexblade, Eldritch Knight, and Soulknife. Though, I think Soulknife just summons it as you attack.

Yes, I believe Soulknife and Kensei would work well enough.

[Kane0]

If you're playing fast and loose with equipment switching, 2 Hand Axes become even more handy, though definitely not OP. One thing I personally think 5e got wrong is sticking to 3.X stingy simulationism for switching equipment. I personally let players switch any/all handheld items as 1 Interaction

I realize this diminishes the Dual Wielder Feat, but that particular benefit feels like a Feat Tax for 2-weapon combatants, and I don't like Feat Taxes. It hasn't come up, but I'd be open to homebrewing an alternative to that benefit if a player was keen on it.


Seconded, I let weapons with the Thrown trait be drawn freely like ammunition is for weapons with the ammunition trait.

Here's what I do for TWF if you're interested:

- Basic Two-Weapon Fighting rules work with light melee weapons, natural weapons and unarmed strikes
- The Fighting style lets you use non-light weapons as well as the +Stat to damage

Dual Wielder Feat is changed to:
- When you make a melee attack against a creature, that creature cannot benefit from Advantage on melee attacks against you until the start of your next turn
- You can use two-weapon fighting as part of the attack action instead of using a bonus action. If you do so you cannot also use your Bonus Action to make a weapon attack on the same turn
- While wielding a different weapon in each hand, if you make an opportunity attack you can make an attack with each weapon you are wielding against the same target (with the usual TWF restrictions)

[Talionis]

The difference in damage isn’t that big for many things. I think you e got it right using the hand axes to close gaps. Whole characters can be made on thrown weapons but it’s hard to optimize them.

[DrFunkenstein]

Kane0, I like your ammunition rule. Taking an arrow from a quiver and nocking it seems loosely equivalent to drawing a throwing weapon and holding it.

I'm cool with 2 weapon fighting as it is, with the caveat of trading the double draw for something else. Would it be too much to make it a half feat (+1 STR or DEX)? I feel like there are some pretty decent half feats out there, and I don't think anyone considers 2WF/DW an optimal build as is. Basically you're getting +1 damage per hit, +1 AC, and +1 to 1 ability score. Might be reasonable...?

Yeah, it seems there are ways to build around double thrown weapons outside Core Rules, though I'm not really into the expansion stuff. Core Rules Monks can do it at higher levels, but they have so much movement, it's not a huge draw. Again, it's a cool secondary option, but I don't think primary.

Also, I just noticed you could use Dueling with the Bonus Action attack. You've already thrown the weapon in your primary hand, so now you only have 1 melee weapon in 1 hand and no other weapons, lolz.

[Kane0]

I'm cool with 2 weapon fighting as it is, with the caveat of trading the double draw for something else. Would it be too much to make it a half feat (+1 STR or DEX)? I feel like there are some pretty decent half feats out there, and I don't think anyone considers 2WF/DW an optimal build as is. Basically you're getting +1 damage per hit, +1 AC, and +1 to 1 ability score. Might be reasonable...?


Absolutely.

[strangebloke]

Used a similar rule to Kane's for a couple years, and had at least one double-axe barbarian with mobile in that time. Her DPR wasn't outrageous, but she was a lot more consistent than some other barbarians I've seen.