Crafting Psionic Items - Dorjes

[ByOdin'sBeard]

I've run into trouble on how exactly creating Dorjes works. It states:

"Dorjes are normally created at the minimum manifester level required to manifest the power, and powers that can be augmented are not augmented when stored in a dorje. A dorje’s wielder cannot augment the power contained within the dorje. However, dorjes can be created at a higher manifester level than required to manifest the power. In this case, the dorje that holds an augmentable power is augmented, to the limit of the manifester level and the power’s augmentation maximums, if any. The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains."

So if I wanted to create a dorje of mind thrust, normally I would pay:
Manifester level × power level × 750gp which would mean 1 × 1 × 750gp = 750gp. Okay, crystal clear.

However, I don't understand the phrasing of "However, dorjes can be created at a higher manifester level than required to manifest the power. In this case, the dorje that holds an augmentable power is augmented, to the limit of the manifester level and the power’s augmentation maximums, if any.".

Does this mean that in order to augment the damage at all, I would need to increase my manifester level to 3, bringing the damage up to 3d10? It says that when created at a higher manifester level, it maxes out to my manifester level, and assuming I'm increasing the ML to 3 instead of 1, my new augmentation maximum would be 3, correct?

Thanks for any help, I cannot for the life of me understand the wording.

[Crake]

Correct, if you want to create a 3d10 mind thrust dorje, you need to make it ML3, and it caps out at 6d10 at ML6.

I note that you said “my new augmentation MAXIMUM”, from my understanding, the dorjes are automatically augmented up to the ML cap, so a 3d10 dorje will always do 3d10 for 1 charge.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Correct, if you want to create a 3d10 mind thrust dorje, you need to make it ML3, and it caps out at 6d10 at ML6.

I note that you said “my new augmentation MAXIMUM”, from my understanding, the dorjes are automatically augmented up to the ML cap, so a 3d10 dorje will always do 3d10 for 1 charge.

Okay, perfect, thank you. I couldn't get my head around this, needed some clarification!

[Segev]

Yeah, basically, unless the power can't be augmented to that number of pp, a dorje always costs like the power in it is maximum power level for the manifester level of the dorje. There's no "first level magic missile in a 9th CL wand" effect; dorjes cost as if that 9th ML dorje of crystal shard were filled with a 5th level power.

On the other hand, unlike wands, dorjes have no cap on how high level a power they can hold, for whatever that's worth.

[Crake]

Yeah, basically, unless the power can't be augmented to that number of pp, a dorje always costs like the power in it is maximum power level for the manifester level of the dorje. There's no "first level magic missile in a 9th CL wand" effect; dorjes cost as if that 9th ML dorje of crystal shard were filled with a 5th level power.

To be clear, the effective level of the power is increased by 1 per 2 extra manifester levels, up to a maximum of +2 effective levels at +5 ML. The magic missile example would not be possible, as it would be limited to CL6, and be a 3rd level spell

[Segev]

To be clear, the effective level of the power is increased by 1 per 2 extra manifester levels, up to a maximum of +2 effective levels at +5 ML. The magic missile example would not be possible, as it would be limited to CL6, and be a 3rd level spell

Could you quote me the rules limiting this? I have looked and looked, and the dorje rules lack the ML or power level caps that wands have, as far as I can find.

[Powerdork]

Could you quote me the rules limiting this? I have looked and looked, and the dorje rules lack the ML or power level caps that wands have, as far as I can find.

While the dorje rules lack the power level caps equivalent to wands' spell level caps, wands of even 0-level spells can be of an arbitrary caster level, while dorjes are ruled by two lines.


For psionic tattoos, power stones, and dorjes, the creator can set the manifester level of an item at any number high enough to manifest the stored power and not higher than her own manifester level. For other psionic items, the item itself determines the manifester level.


Dorjes are normally created at the minimum manifester level required to manifest the power, and powers that can be augmented are not augmented when stored in a dorje. A dorje’s wielder cannot augment the power contained within the dorje. However, dorjes can be created at a higher manifester level than required to manifest the power. In this case, the dorje that holds an augmentable power is augmented, to the limit of the manifester level and the power’s augmentation maximums, if any. The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains. See Creating Dorjes, page 181.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

To be clear, the effective level of the power is increased by 1 per 2 extra manifester levels, up to a maximum of +2 effective levels at +5 ML. The magic missile example would not be possible, as it would be limited to CL6, and be a 3rd level spell

This is what threw me off, on the example given about augmenting a dorje, it states:
"If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level. Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power.".

if you're required to increase the power level by one for every two manifester levels, should this example have the energy missile be a 4th level power instead of 5th? The additional manifester levels are 4-5, 6-7, 8; you can't increase it more than 5 above the minimum manifester level.

Is this an instance where you round down? Because +1 Power Level for every +2 Manifester levels literally cannot be done with a limit of +5 manifester levels total.

I'm either trying to do this stuff way too late into the night, or my brain is mush.

[Crake]

This is what threw me off, on the example given about augmenting a dorje, it states:
"If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level. Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power.".

if you're required to increase the power level by one for every two manifester levels, should this example have the energy missile be a 4th level power instead of 5th? The additional manifester levels are 4-5, 6-7, 8; you can't increase it more than 5 above the minimum manifester level.

Is this an instance where you round down? Because +1 Power Level for every +2 Manifester levels literally cannot be done with a limit of +5 manifester levels total.

I'm either trying to do this stuff way too late into the night, or my brain is mush.

Oh, huh, youre right, I think it should be 4th level, not 5th.

Looking at the errata, it actually seems like it was initially written as 6th! Level, and was errataed down to 5th, but I think, based on the wording, even that was wrong, and it should be 4th.

[ByOdin'sBeard]

Oh, huh, youre right, I think it should be 4th level, not 5th.

Looking at the errata, it actually seems like it was initially written as 6th! Level, and was errataed down to 5th, but I think, based on the wording, even that was wrong, and it should be 4th.

Gotta love trying to interpret some of the rules for 3.5. I'm never sure if I can't grasp the wording or if it is a genuine error.

Thank you again for all the input!