PDA

View Full Version : Improved Sword Burst (5e)



Phhase
2023-02-08, 01:26 AM
Sword Burst isn't very good. For those who don't know, this is what it does:

Sword Burst
Conjuration cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (5-foot radius)
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous

You create a momentary circle of spectral blades that sweep around you. All other creatures within 5 feet of you must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take 1d6 force damage.

This spell's damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).

In the interest of fairness, this does give us a scant few pros.

Good damage type.
Castable while your hands are full.
Can potentially hit up to 17 creatures, assuming you're hemispherically surrounded and on a frictionless plane.


Not a great deal. What are the cons?


Mediocre at best damage die.
Requires a save, which is usually less powerful than an attack roll.
Targets a poor save, especially at the levels for which it's useful.
No riders or partial effects.
Requires the caster to be in melee range of at least one, if not more enemies.
Requires the caster to not do something better with their turn.


I think there's a really cool niche here for that storm of blades iaijutsu style attack that's just not being served. What if, instead, Sword Burst was like this?

Sword Burst
Transmutation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self (5-foot radius)
Components: S, M(A weapon of a type that normally deals slashing damage)
Duration: Instantaneous

You make a lightning-quick series of cuts with the brandished weapon. All other creatures within 5 feet of you must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or suffer the effects of an attack with the weapon used as a material component. Treat the weapon's primary damage die as 1d6 for this attack. The hand that wields the weapon used as a material component can also provide the somatic component.

This spell's primary damage increases by 1d6 when you reach 5th level (2d6), 11th level (3d6), and 17th level (4d6).

This makes the following changes:

Damage type has been demoted, but now scales with your equipment. This means that once you start getting magic weapons, the cantrip remains relevant in edge cases where you're in multi-man-melee.
The ability modifier you use to attack is now added to the damage, but dice size is demoted (in most cases). This makes the damage more competitive, but keeps it from going nutty by dint of requiring one to be MAD if they want to optimize both damage and the save.
The cantrip now allows one to add effects like bonus elemental damage from a magical weapon, or poison on attacks.
"A weapon type that normally deals slashing damage." allows one to use a weapon that would normally be a slashing weapon (like a sun blade) to be used.



What do you think? This design still requires one to be in melee combat with more than one enemy in order to be worth it, and isn't actually an attack (so no maneuvers or other effects not native to the weapon) so I (think?) multiattacking might still be better in some situations at higher levels. Perhaps this would be useful for a gish of some sort?

Damon_Tor
2023-02-08, 05:38 AM
The restriction to slashing weapons doesn't feel necessary: you'll find yourself in a situation where a spellcaster who can take this spell can't actually make good use of it because they don't have proficiency with any weapon that can work with the spell.

The awkward "pass a dex save or suffer the effects of an attack, but treat the weapons damage as 1d6" mechanic is pointless complication. Just have them take 1d6 damage like any other spell? Is there a specific interaction you're aiming for here?

In most circumstances it seems to me like all your suggestion boils down to is "add str or dex mod to damage or this spell." Which would just make it too strong. I think there are several Martials like the hunter and drunken master who would be annoyed by anyone with a free cantrip getting what amounts to a superior version of their high level class feature right at level 1.

Ilerien
2023-02-08, 09:09 AM
Your solution feels like it's needlessly complex, honestly. I'd just bump the damage die to d10 and call it a day: a typical full caster wouldn't want to find themselves in arm's reach of more than one hostile anyway, but it might be worth it for gishes. This should work for thunderclap and word of radiance, as they're basically the same kind of bad.

Old Harry MTX
2023-02-08, 10:44 AM
Your solution feels like it's needlessly complex, honestly. I'd just bump the damage die to d10 and call it a day: a typical full caster wouldn't want to find themselves in arm's reach of more than one hostile anyway, but it might be worth it for gishes. This should work for thunderclap and word of radiance, as they're basically the same kind of bad.

I would not rise it more than d8 to be honest.

Phhase
2023-02-08, 01:09 PM
The restriction to slashing weapons doesn't feel necessary: you'll find yourself in a situation where a spellcaster who can take this spell can't actually make good use of it because they don't have proficiency with any weapon that can work with the spell.

The awkward "pass a dex save or suffer the effects of an attack, but treat the weapons damage as 1d6" mechanic is pointless complication. Just have them take 1d6 damage like any other spell? Is there a specific interaction you're aiming for here?

In most circumstances it seems to me like all your suggestion boils down to is "add str or dex mod to damage or this spell." Which would just make it too strong. I think there are several Martials like the hunter and drunken master who would be annoyed by anyone with a free cantrip getting what amounts to a superior version of their high level class feature right at level 1.




The ability modifier you use to attack is now added to the damage
The cantrip now allows one to add effects like bonus elemental damage from a magical weapon, or poison on attacks.



Is 4d6+mod within 5ft on a dex save better than 1d10+mod x 7 (plus stunning strike, crits, crusher, advantage, and whatever else?). Remember, you'd have to invest in two stats for the damage to reliably stick.

Kane0
2023-02-08, 03:40 PM
Funny enough the existing version is fine as a cantrip as is, the primary issue it faces is that there are precious few ways to improve it with class features (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637303-Help-me-optimise-Sword-Burst)

Perhaps look into expanding the range or follow that path of allowing you to use a weapon as focus for the casting in order to change the damage type and add any of the weapon's effects when casting (a little bit like a bladetrip but still an aoe save rather than weapon attack)

JNAProductions
2023-02-08, 03:45 PM
Is 4d6+mod within 5ft on a dex save better than 1d10+mod x 7 (plus stunning strike, crits, crusher, advantage, and whatever else?). Remember, you'd have to invest in two stats for the damage to reliably stick.

It's power creep, 100%.
Sword Burst as it stands now is not generally the first-pick cantrip for a Gish, and probably won't be picked at all for a non-Gish.

But on someone like a Bladesinger? It's a perfectly valid pick. If you're level 6 and facing a dozen goblins, run up, Sword Burst, and then use your other attack to hit someone who made their save.

I don't think upping it to 1d8 per tier would be the end of the world or anything, and likewise, your suggestions won't BREAK the game or anything. But it's power creep on those who least need it. It's also added complexity for minimal gain.

Yakk
2023-02-09, 11:04 AM
Martial PC attack action is supposed to be better than a Cantrip. That is by design.

Spellcasters have spells, so their baseline action (a cantrip) is weaker, and in exchange they can spend actions on spells to get above baseline performance.

Sword Burst is a cantrip, so it is supposed to be (usually) worse than just taking the attack action on a character with fighting styles and extra attack at level 5.

The SCAG cantrips break this for rogues, as there is no downside; rogues have no extra attack to lose at 5, and they just add up. This was a design error. It wasn't that big, as you do lose TWF, and two short swords + SA almost matches SCAG+SA due to increased reliability of landing SA from the bonus action attack.

SCAG cantrips are probably too strong at level 1 (as they are stronger than a martial PC attack action at level 1 slightly). By level 5 and above, they get weaker; the extra damage dice don't match the extra attack.

By T3/T4 the "back 10" problem of some martial classes (many martial classes don't get a good offensive boost at 11 and 17 that they should get) can bring SCAG cantrips back into contention. (Ranger with a poor level 11 feature is a classic one, or Barbarian).

...

Sword Burst doing 1d6+attribute in an aoe is way stronger at level 1 than it should be. The baseline weapon attack is 1d8+attribute. 1 less average damage for an AOE is a large upgrade.

...

Saves correspond to an AC of 14+save modifier. This isn't far off what monsters have.

Yakk
2023-03-01, 04:25 PM
I think there are several Martials like the hunter and drunken master who would be annoyed by anyone with a free cantrip getting what amounts to a superior version of their high level class feature right at level 2...
If anyone is playing a Hunter and upset by other characters being better than them, they chose the wrong subclass.

"Nothing can be better than a bad subclass" is a subclass problem, not everything else problem.