Optimizing for lower levels. Best 7th level character.

[Blackflight]

Whenever I see character concepts and builds I usually see builds that optimize for level 20 characters, which is fair since this is the peak of that character's potential. In reality, from the games that I have played, most campaigns seem to die out at somewhere around 7th level with the next campaign starting out at 1st level with new characters once again.

This had me thinking, what would be the most optimized character for lower levels? Consider the following:

* The character build is for 7th level
* The character needs to perform well on their way to 7th level, meaning that they cannot suck at their first few levels only then to be strong at 7th level.

Post the most optimal character build that you can think of in this thread with the following rules:

* Official material only (no UA)
* No races with a flying speed. No Yuan-ti pureblood race (they have been banned in all games I have played)

Edit: Optimal in this sense that the character is an overall very valuable party member and able to do well in most situations they would find themselves in.

[Rukelnikov]

You need to define optimal.

Best adaptability to whatever situation its in?

Best expected CC?

Best white room theoretical DPR?

Best character at winning the crowd?

Best character that flings chickens as weapon and juggle torches while fighting?

There are too many criteria by which you may consider one build "the most optimal"

[Blackflight]

You need to define optimal.

There are too many criteria by which you may consider one build "the most optimal"

This is a good point actually. I have added this in the thread above. The idea is that the character is overall capable of dealing with whatever is thrown at him/her. This does not mean that the character needs to be a jack of all trades and have proficiency in all skill checks, but rather that the character is capable in combat and adds something valuable to the party outside combat aswell. Without having a clearcut definition I think the closest would be that optimal = valuable party member.

[Rukelnikov]

This is a good point actually. I have added this in the thread above. The idea is that the character is overall capable of dealing with whatever is thrown at him/her. This does not mean that the character needs to be a jack of all trades and have proficiency in all skill checks, but rather that the character is capable in combat and adds something valuable to the party outside combat aswell. Without having a clearcut definition I think the closest would be that optimal = valuable party member.

Well, for 1-7 the best it can be averaged across the journey, gut reaction would be Moon Druid, I've only seen 2 in play in those levels, and they pretty much dominated.

The first one I saw the campaign ended at 5 and did acceptably well, and it was pretty much the players real introduction to playing TTRPGs.

The second one, was pretty good early on, but at level 6th it became a monster. More specifically a Giant Elk that was the carry of the party, carry in the sense that, since Giant Elk's are huge, the other 3 party memebers could fit in her back, and she would carry us everywhere with the 70 move speed, and in combat the Wizard would cast Haste on her for a Mobile base with 140 move speed, 10 ft reach, and 2 casters and an archer ranger/rogue on her back. Pretty good results from that PC.

[animorte]

Well, at level 7 you could have a Paladin with two auras (base and subclass). Watchers is my favorite.

[Blackflight]

My own contribution to this would be warlock/bard hybrid

Race: Custom lineage (Darkvision, +2 cha)
Background: Sailor  Perception & Athletics
Class skills: Deception & Arcana (+ persuasion at 3rd level due to Bard multiclass)
Bonus Feat: Actor

STR: 8
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 8
WIS: 12
CHA: 18 (custom linage + actor feat)

Level 1: Warlock (1)  Hexblade subclass
Level 2: Warlock (2)  Agonizing blast & Mask of many faces
Level 3: Bard (1)
Level 4: Bard (2)
Level 5: Bard (3)  College of eloquence, expertise (persuasion & deception)
Level 6: Bard (4)  +2 Cha (or fey-touched feat)
Level 7: Bard (5)

Description: This character can do a lot of things and do them well. He is a very good party face who will have reliably high persuasion/deception rolls due to the college of eloquence feature. Furthermore, he is a perfect infiltrator since he can disguise self at will and mimicry voices and sounds of other people with the actor feat. He is solid in combat, has a high AC score due to being a hexblade and eldritch blast + hex is always nice. With spells like silvery barbs, healing word, hypnotic pattern, etc. he is also able to fill a support and control role quite well.

As far as progression go, hexblades are notorious for being brokenly top heavy, so this character is already quite capable at 1st level and he scales well.

[da newt]

It's pretty hard to beat the effectiveness of a lvl 7 shepherd druid goblin - full caster w/ summons/conjures, med armor and shield for AC w/ BA hide for survivability, healing and temp hp, combat and utility. Maybe not the best, but certainly top shelf.

Twilight Cleric goliaths are also better than most, SS Gloomstalkers can be DPR machines, and you can't go wrong with a paladin either (I like vengeance duergar).

[RogueJK]

My mind immediately went to Paladin 6/Sorcerer or Warlock 1. It's tough to argue against the fact that Paladins tend to dominate Tier 2, and adding in a level of CHA-based caster helps fill in some of the Paladin's few deficiencies plus add additional abilities.

This gets you:
-Extra Attack
-Divine Smite with 1st and 2nd level slots
-Fighting Style
-Lay on Hands
-Paladin 3rd level subclass abilities
-1st and 2nd level Paladin spellcasting, including Find Steed for mobility
-Aura of Protection's +CHA to all saving throws
-Additional Sorcerer/Warlock 1st level spells known
-Additional 1st or 2nd level spell/smite slots
-Cantrips, including both utility cantrips and ranged cantrips (thus shoring up the Paladin's lesser options against ranged/flying enemies)
-Sorcerer/Warlock 1st level subclass abilities

And depending on which class you take first, you could even have the Sorcerer's CON saving throw proficiency for Concentration, as long as you were able to live with not having the Paladin's Heavy Armor proficiency.

Or if you go Paladin 6/Hexblade 1 and stick to 1H weapons, you can be CHA-SAD.


So I'd say the "most all-around optimal" 7th level character could be something like this, combining high melee offense, useful ranged offense, high defense, high saves, high mobility, spellcasting, and a number of skills, all in a CHA-SAD package that's playable directly from Level 1 onward:

Half Elf Hexblade Warlock 1/Vengeance Paladin 6
STR 12+1
DEX 13+1
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+2
Fighting Style: Dueling or Defense
ASIs: Elven Accuracy (18 CHA) at 4
Racial Skills: Persuasion, Acrobatics
Warlock Skills: Deception, Intimidation
Background Skills: Perception, Insight
Warlock Cantrips: Eldritch Blast plus a utility cantrip like Mage Hand or Minor Illusion
Warlock 1st Level Spells: Shield, Armor of Agathys

Wear half plate armor and wield a shield and a longsword/warhammer/battleaxe, using Advantage from Vow of Emnity or other sources plus Hexblade's Curse to fish for Critical Smites (rolling 3d20 and critting on a 19-20, dealing 8d8+7 damage with a 2nd level Critical Smite, or 10d8+7 on undead/fiends). At range, you have Eldritch Blast, with 2x 1d10 ranged attacks at 120'. On the defensive side, you have an AC of 19 (or 20 with Defense fighting style) and can boost that +5 via Shield utilizing your Warlock Pact slot that recharges on a short rest, plus you have an additional +4 bonus to all of your saves at all times (including Concentration). For mobility, you have a magical warhorse mount with 60' movement that can Disengage or Dash, plus it shares spells with you. Out of combat, you're the Party Face. Plus you can function as a secondary healer, with access to Lay on Hands, Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, and Prayer of Healing.

[CTurbo]

Half Elf Hexblade Warlock 1/Vengeance Paladin 6
STR 10
DEX 13+1
CON 15+1
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+2
Fighting Style: Dueling or Defense
ASIs: Elven Accuracy (18 CHA) at 4
Racial Skills: Persuasion, Acrobatics
Warlock Skills: Deception, Intimidation
Background Skills: Perception, Insight
Warlock Cantrips: Eldritch Blast plus a utility cantrip like Mage Hand or Minor Illusion
Warlock 1st Level Spells: Shield, Armor of Agathys



You need 13 Str minimum to mutliclass in/out of Paladin.

I agree though that Paladin 7 or Paladin 6/Warlock 1 would probably be the best at level 7 specifically. Just start 16 Str and 16 Cha and either bump Str at level 4 or grab a feat like Polearm Master.

I think Rogues are really strong at level 7 so that wouldn't be a bad option.

Lore Bards would be great too having 2 Magical Secrets and a 4th level slot.

Some Clerics are particularly strong around level 7 too. My last Tempest Cleric felt OP at levels 6-8. I was EASILY out damaging everybody else between Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, and being able to maximize thunder/lightning damage twice per short rest. If Control Water, Ice Storm, or any 4th level Cleric spell interests you, you could start Fighter 1 for Con saves and +1 AC and then take 6 levels of Tempest Cleric.

And shout out to Gloom Stalker Ranger 7 as being a very solid build. Ranger is considered terribly weak at higher levels, but really hasn't started to fall off yet at level 7.

[RogueJK]

Good catch. I'd do:

STR 12+1
DEX 13+1
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+2

[icedraikon]

lots of great earlygame builds

- Rogue (Thief) Medic - Vuman Healer + Inspiring Leader (Str8, Dex15+1, Con15+1, Int8, Wis10, Cha14). Can drop con to 14 to get 16cha if you want that. Good dex for stealth. good cha for face skills, Healer + Insp Leader give indane hp values to the team on top of full rogue SA progression and you can infinitely do ba 1hp heals for wackamole with healers kit and Fast Hands. Can dip Celest Warlock 1 for BA ranged heals.

- Zealot DPR - Vuman PAM + GWM. (Str15+1, Dex14, Con15+1) reckless + gwm just does insane dpr.

- Sorlock - Sorc 3/W2/Sorc2 - Sorc 3 for web spam at lvl 5 you're doing baseline dpr with hex + eb and lvl7 you're at 3rd lvl spells.

- Warlock Summoner - Straight Warlock max cha + con. insp leader is good here as well. Pact of Chain + Investment of the Chain Master. Minor Illusion and just play through familiae for lvls3-4. lvl5+ play through Summon Shadowspawn/Undead+familiar. Familiar can be VERY tanky in t1 with resist to nonmag dmg (Imp) and potentially thp from inspiring leader. lvl7 you get 2 attack summon and summon greater demon which are both very very strong

- Gloomstalker - That's the build. Gloomstalker, sharpshooter, pew pew. could go Gloom 5, War cleric X for a 4attack nova if you dont want to use Hunters Mark. Past lvl7 you have a lot of upcast slots for Aid and all that fun stuff.

[RogueJK]

- Rogue (Thief) Medic - Vuman Healer + Inspiring Leader (Str8, Dex15+1, Con15+1, Int8, Wis10, Cha14). Can drop con to 14 to get 16cha if you want that. Good dex for stealth. good cha for face skills, Healer + Insp Leader give indane hp values to the team on top of full rogue SA progression and you can infinitely do ba 1hp heals for wackamole with healers kit and Fast Hands. Can dip Celest Warlock 1 for BA ranged heals.

Yes, this would be a very effective Healer-Face-Illusionist build for Level 7:
VHuman Thief Rogue 5/Celestial Warlock 2
STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+1
ASIs: Healer, Inspiring Leader
Warlock Cantrips: Light*, Sacred Flame*, Booming Blade, Minor Illusion
Warlock 1st Level Spells: Cure Wounds, Hex, Comprehend Languages
Invocations: Misty Visions, Mask of Many Faces

You've got BA Healer's Kit usage, BA 60' range d6 healing 3x per day, loads of temp HP for everyone in the party after each rest, and Cure Wounds for use with your 1st level slots (if needed, and still available). In combat, you've got 3d6 Sneak Attack plus Booming Blade + Cunning Action Disengage with a Rapier, or Shortbow ranged attacks. Or fall back on Sacred Flame if they're behind cover. Hex can be used in combat for a little additional damage and to put your otherwise unused Concentration to use, and also has use out of combat for inflicting Disadvantage on opposed skill checks (like when trying to utilize your Face skills, or when sneaking past some enemies). And speaking of Face skills, you've got a solid CHA plus Proficiency + Expertise in all four: Insight, Persuasion, Intimidation, and Deception. Plus Proficiency in 3 additional skills, like Perception, Stealth, and Acrobatics. And you have at-will Mask of Many Faces and Silent Image, plus Minor Illusion, for illusory shenanigans to pair with your Deception prowess.

Lots of combat capability, lots of healing, lots of damage mitigation via frequent 10 Temp HP for all, and lots of out of combat utility, both magical and mundane.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The strongest character I've seen at that level (and basically continued to be the case through tier 2) was a halfling Shepherd Druid. I think the player went with halfling for the telepathy and re-rolling 1s (mostly on con. checks). He was adding roughly 1000hp of hp per day through temp hp and bonus ones for summoned creatures by this point. Summoned creatures ignore BPS resistance, so they're always good. He had Res Con and took Warcaster at level 8. There was very little he did that relied on Wis, and I can't even remember if he bumped that at 12 or took another feat. A player could obviously get both feats going by 4 if they went VHuman or Custom, so that would be good. The 10th level ability is another good one that just stacks with what he was already doing, so it just keeps going.

He was good with the exploration piliar in terms of either shapeshifting or summoning things to get into, over, or around obstacles that came up. Not much for the social pillar, but at least the rest of the party had something to do.

In short, I have no intent on ever DMing one of these again.

[RogueJK]

In short, I have no intent on ever DMing one of these again.

Yes, Shepherd Druids with Conjure Animals can get quite bonkers, both from a power/damage mitigation standpoint, as well as from a combat pacing/micromanagement standpoint.

Whereas a Shepherd Druid restricted to the newer streamlined single-summon Summon X spells, without access to mass Conjure Animals spam, is still useful but much less maddening and overpowered.

So if you run into a player who wants to play a Shepherd Druid, that could be a compromise, rather than an outright ban on the subclass.


There was very little he did that relied on Wis

That's true for a Shepherd Druid that relies on the Conjure X spells, which uses the creatures' own fixed stat blocks, but not the case for a Shepherd Druid that relies on the Summon Beast/Summon Fey spells, which have scaling stat blocks that rely in part on the Shepherd's WIS. They'd necessarily have to invest in WIS.

[nickl_2000]

Here is my party of 4 at level 7.

Level 7 Twilight Cleric - since you are level 7 you get 2 twilight sanctuarys per rest. That nets 1d6+7 temp HP each round when something ends it's turn in it. As an emergency you are also a good tank to be able to step up in combat. Amazing darkvision and can give it to someone else as well. Then you have full cleric spells for out of combat utility and wisdom based skills.

Level 7 Shepherd Druid - Conjures creatures that do magical damage and gets crazy amounts of THP from the Twilight Cleric. Then you use Hawk Spirit Totem to give all creates advantage to make it more likely for them to hit and do damage. This also nets you pass without a trace and other great Druid spells and wisdom based skills

Level 7 Evocation Wizard - Can blast like a champ and avoid hurting the summons running around while doing it. Also it's a Wizard, so you have rituals up the wazoo and can prep for anything and int based spells

Level 7 Oath of Ancients Wizard - Tanks really well, can nova damage on a single target, charisma skills, and the two auras do an amazing job of protecting everyone against spells that would nuke. This keeps those summons around more and lets them do damage.


I'm pretty sure that there aren't any challenges this party couldn't overcome. That being said, I would absolutely hate DMing this table because I'm pretty sure you can't beat them.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Yes, Shepherd Druids with Conjure Animals can get quite bonkers, both from a power/damage mitigation standpoint, as well as from a combat pacing/micromanagement standpoint.

Whereas a Shepherd Druid restricted to the newer streamlined single-summon Summon X spells, without access to mass Conjure Animals spam, is still useful but much less maddening and overpowered.

So if you run into a player who wants to play a Shepherd Druid, that could be a compromise, rather than an outright ban on the subclass.



That's true for a Shepherd Druid that relies on the Conjure X spells, which uses the creatures' own fixed stat blocks, but not the case for a Shepherd Druid that relies on the Summon Beast/Summon Fey spells, which have scaling stat blocks that rely in part on the Shepherd's WIS. They'd necessarily have to invest in WIS.

Kind of making my point for me. Without some sort of nerf these guys are taking a very strong spell and cranking it up to 11 on top of some other good abilities. That spell is versatile as well as summoned critters can effectively tank, do damage, and have a lot of utility. So this 'one trick pony' has a trick that can overcome a lot of different types of combat and exploration/ terrain type challenges.

edit: Conjure Animals does scale at 9th level in addition to other options available at 7th.

[strangebloke]

So I'm going to toot my own horn here a bit. I play in a DND pvp league, and my team is a consistent top tier league champion within the level 5 range. Now, this isn't strictly relevant to the question of "optimal in real play" for obvious reasons - single target CC is too important, the rules of the league incentive melee with maps that have lots of cover and short distances, HOWEVER.

I feel very confident saying that Druids, Clerics, and Wizards are the big three, followed by Bards and Paladins.

Druids at low levels are ridiculous. High AC, effectively unlimited HP relative to the party, and spells like Spike Growth or Pass without Trace that can win the encounter before the enemy has a chance to react. Their only real 'weakness' is single target DPR where they lag a bit, but that problem gets thoroughly resolved at level 5 by conjure animals, which can completely erase basically any challenge of an appropriate CR. If the DM softbans Conjure animals by making it summon seahorses or whatever then sure, it sucks, but even a semi-random allotment of CR 1/8 animals will destroy the difficulty curve. It's just too much HP and damage, and it lasts a whole hour. Adding to this all, druids are excellent explorers. Wildshape is good for scouting, and the various druid rituals and spells make them fantastic in the so-called "exploration pillar."

Clerics are much more straightforward beatsticks in combat early on. They have high AC and lots of Damage Mitigation abilities, and their damage output with efficient spells like Spirit Guardians is very good. Compared to Druids their peak is a lot lower, but their floor is higher, and the large number of prepared spells makes them tend to be fantastic utility casters.

Finally, wizards. Oh boy wizards. While everyone agrees that wizards are broken (in the sense of breaking the game wide open) past a certain level, I feel like people sleep on the abilities of a wizard at low-to-mid levels. At early levels, rituals like find familiar, detect magic, and identify make the wizard a force, and this contribution continues to stack up as the game goes on because of the unique way that wizard rituals work. You can just cast Water Breathing every day as a ritual, for example, with no cost except copying the spell in the first place. You can just summon phantom steeds for everyone. You can have your familiar do an actionless heal by having it fly to a downed ally and administer a health potion. And yeah, you can just shut down a roomful of enemies with a single hypnotic pattern. You have better tools than almost anyone to force failed saving throws, between Chronurgist, Diviner, and spells like silvery barbs (Which is extremely overpowered and should be poached by any high-power build - assuming its not banned like it should be.) You get access to gift of alacrity, one of the silliest and most broken-good spells ever printed. and in exchange for this you have.... low-ish hp? lol. Wizards are extremely strong from level 1 onward, if you take full advantage of their abilities.

Paladins of course are notorious for just making the boss die out of nowhere, but I feel the need to note that they're pretty easy to shut down if your DM knows what they're doing. Paladins generally need to get into melee to do their killing, and going up into melee often deprives the party of their aura, which is one of their strongest class features. They're very vulnerable to soft CC. A dexadin can get wrecked by a well-placed entangle for example, and being mounted can actually make this problem worse. The Paladin spell list is also just kind of trash barring a few standouts like find steed and bless but their explosive potential, healing, aura, and channel divinity elevates them above all the other martials. IMO all martials should be designed to be this strong.

Bards, finally, are great. They really are. Skills, rituals, and a decent control and support centric spell list. However, spells like gift of alacrity and silvery barbs have stolen some of their best tricks from them. Bards aren't uniquely able to cut down enemy saves and initiative any more, and that's a real downside. They aren't very good at damage dealing until spells like animate objects come online. Further complicating matters, they're actually less resilient than any other class on this list by default - you need to take moderately armored or poach the shield/mage armor combo somehow to get ahead.

IMO at 7th level you're looking at a straight-classes chronurgist, diviner, twilight cleric, moon druid, or shepherds druid. The non-wizards probably pick up fey touched for silvery barbs, as well as some kind of saves protection like Lucky or Warcaster.

[Bosh]

Not strictly optimized, but 7th level is a good time for two fun builds:

1 (war) cleric/6 shadow monk with the great weapon master and eldritch adept to see in magic darkness. Plays like a dark knight or horror movie slasher with heavy armor and a big damn two-handed weapon. **** you can do:
-Make use of your concentration slot with useful spells like bless, shield of faith and (via monk) darkness. Also emergency healing word downed party members.
-Get a bonus action attack wisdom mod times a day plus whenever you kill or crit someone.
-Call down magic darkness on yourself that you can see in.
-Smack someone so hard upside the head that you stun them (stunning blow).
-Use ki (focused aim) to make sure that your -5/+10 great weapon master attacks go through.
-Bonus action teleport AT WILL that gives you advantage.
-Bonus action dodge to tank like nuts on top of your heavy armor.

Sure it's pretty ki hungry, but hey it's a monk and it gives you a lot of interesting options while not looking like a monk aesthetically at all. Also you can teleport around and advantage great weapon master smack people at will which is pretty nice.

Also works decent enough at low levels since war cleric is one of the most powerful things to be at first level and by the time that starts to fall off your monk shenanigans come on line.

Barbarogues in general: 7th level is a good point for barbarogues since barb 5/rogue 2 makes you a maneuverable barbarians who's awesome at grappling (expertise) and can get a little extra damage while barb 2/rogue 5 gives you a rogue who can get advantage whenever the hell they want and really take some punches (rage + uncanny dodge = 1/4 damage when you need it). Barbarians and rogues are both really frontloaded so all kinds of combinations of barbarian and rogue levels work just fine at low levels.

[Witty Username]

General principles,
Martials should not multiclass before 5th level, the cost of delaying extra attack is higher than people give it credit for.
PAM and XBE are very strong at level 1, varient human is often the most optimal choice for builds that use these weapons for this reason.

Casters, level 1 armor dips hurt alot at 5th level, because they delay your most important level of spellcasting. Generally these should only be considered if AC is a significant concern for your table, or if you expect alot of play after 5th level.

Multiclassing delays progression for features the build otherwise wouldn't get, generally this doesn't pay off until Tier 2, which means it should be avoided for low level games.

YMMV, for specific builds and combinations.

[Bosh]

General principles,
Martials should not multiclass before 5th level, the cost of delaying extra attack is higher than people give it credit for.
PAM and XBE are very strong at level 1, varient human is often the most optimal choice for builds that use these weapons for this reason.

Casters, level 1 armor dips hurt alot at 5th level, because they delay your most important level of spellcasting. Generally these should only be considered if AC is a significant concern for your table, or if you expect alot of play after 5th level.

Multiclassing delays progression for features the build otherwise wouldn't get, generally this doesn't pay off until Tier 2, which means it should be avoided for low level games.

YMMV, for specific builds and combinations.

On the other hand there are a lot of VERY frontloaded classes that are often worth sucking up one level of pain to dip in. Order cleric dip as a divine soul sorcerer being a really notable one, clerics can get a lot of very nice first level abilities in general. Rage can also be very nice in a lot of non-casters and you get two uses of it with just one level dip.

[Sherlockpwns]

I will join the general chorus of Druid, but in a slightly different direction.

Wildfire Druid, specifically the “new” Bugbear.

This monster excels in ways that are frankly just bonkers. The big “trick” is simply that they get scorching Ray and the bugbear extra d6 to anyone who hasn’t gone yet.

I prefer Tasha summons because it is reliable and lasts an hour. Beast or fey are both fine here.

Your level 4 slot goes to the summon if tasha, to regular animals if not. In an ideal world it is presummoned at the first sign of danger. You open with at least a level 3 ray, dealing a potential total of 12d6 (15d6 if you use your lvl 4 spell).

The Tasha summon will have 2 attacks and will basically be doing the damage of a party member on its own.

But the real star is your fire spirit. The ability to teleport multiple allies can not be overstated. It. Everything from climbing to disengaging, you’ll be using the little guy constantly. Even if all you do for some rounds is use the bonus action to attack it’s still reliable moderate damage on top of your action.

The end result is 2 hours worth of summons per rest (one Tasha summon will be level 2). The DM may target them; but that’s a win too, they have plenty of HP.

And none of this has even touched on any other spells you can cast for utility, rp, or even just more combat.

I played a moon druid with conjure animals. That felt very powerful at tier 1-2. By comparison this felt absolutely busted when I played it.

With a presummoned fire spirit and bird spirit it’s totally plausible to do 42 damage with your action. 25 damage from your summon, and 6 from your spirit on the opening turn. Absolutely bonkers.

If you enjoy just making silly characters that force your poor DM to change their entire approach to encounter building, give it a try.

Oh and it can do ALL these tricks at level 3. No waiting for tier 2 even.

[animorte]

If you enjoy just making silly characters that force your poor DM to change their entire approach to encounter building, give it a try.
Even though that sounds a bit mean, I second this. DMs need to learn and understand how to construct combat so that it's not always just a race to zero HP.

[DruidAlanon]

It's pretty hard to beat the effectiveness of a lvl 7 shepherd druid goblin - full caster w/ summons/conjures, med armor and shield for AC w/ BA hide for survivability, healing and temp hp, combat and utility. Maybe not the best, but certainly top shelf.

Twilight Cleric goliaths are also better than most, SS Gloomstalkers can be DPR machines, and you can't go wrong with a paladin either (I like vengeance duergar).

I played for a 1 game session a Kobold Shepherd at lvl 7 and he is for all practical purposes a god.

Battle:
Draconic cry + Conjure animals + Bear Totem + Mighty Summoner = houndreds of magic damage per turn against any AC from beefed animals.
Conjure woodland beings = almost broken
Polymorph

Support:
Draconic cry + Bear Totem = Advantage and temp PH to the party
Wildshape for scouting etc
Polymorph

Misc:
You are a full Druid with all the healing, support and control spells in the world.
Polymorph


A bladesinger at this level is also quite close in terms of overall awesomeness and versatility. Best melee damage in the game at levels 6-7 and access to 4 levels of wizard spells.

[strangebloke]

I played for a 1 game session a Kobold Shepherd at lvl 7 and he is for all practical purposes a god.

Battle:
Draconic cry + Conjure animals + Bear Totem + Mighty Summoner = houndreds of magic damage per turn against any AC from beefed animals.
Conjure woodland beings = almost broken
Polymorph

Support:
Draconic cry + Bear Totem = Advantage and temp PH to the party
Wildshape for scouting etc
Polymorph

Misc:
You are a full Druid with all the healing, support and control spells in the world.
Polymorph


A bladesinger at this level is also quite close in terms of overall awesomeness and versatility. Best melee damage in the game at levels 6-7 and access to 4 levels of wizard spells.

Yeah, I think a kobold shepherd is probably up there at level 7 specifically. A bit earlier I think moon druid is better but there's really nothing any appropriately CR-ed challenge can do to you at this level.

Main weakness is the lack of ranged firepower but that's not a huge weakness.

[RogueJK]

Yeah, I think a kobold shepherd is probably up there at level 7 specifically.

Main weakness is the lack of ranged firepower but that's not a huge weakness.

Kobold Legacy Draconic Sorcery gives you a WIS-based Sorcerer cantrip. That can give you a solid ranged attack option like Chill Touch. Then you have several ranged damage spell options like Call Lightning, Erupting Earth, Tidal Wave, or Ice Storm.

So while it's not massively OP like your summons' melee damage output, a Kobold Shepherd Druid does have decent options for either resourceless or leveled spell ranged damage.

Plus Summon/Conjure spells can bring in flying summons, so ranged enemies won't necessarily be ranged for long...

[KorvinStarmast]

If I was asked to bring in the 'best' 7th level character to a group, and they needed a support character, I'd probably bring in a Level 7 Lore Bard, or a level 1 Shadow Sorc/Level 6 Lore Bard. Lore bard can do a lot to shape the battlefield. (And particularly so now that Tasha's has slow as a bard spell).

The Lore Bard can pick two magical secrets that fit the party "just right" depending on who else is in the party.

So that's what I'd offer up at level 7. But TBH, it would probably be level 7 Lore Bard so that FoM, Polymorph, and DD were available.

[DruidAlanon]

Yeah, I think a kobold shepherd is probably up there at level 7 specifically. A bit earlier I think moon druid is better but there's really nothing any appropriately CR-ed challenge can do to you at this level.

Main weakness is the lack of ranged firepower but that's not a huge weakness.

I also believe up to level 5 maybe 6 moon is ahead of everything.

You can use polymorph for 50ft range attack via Giant Ape, or spell sniper + thorn whip for 60ft. You just need an appropriate set up for this. At 8th level you'll get flying wildshapes but at 7 a form with climbing speed or similar should be enough to get closer. From conjure woodland beings certain fyes also have fly + shorbtow (and polymorph if you get Pixies) and conjure minor elementals also kinda solves this. Conjure animals also has 60ft range, so at least for a round you're good.

Not comparable to really long range characters like Hexblade + Eldritch spear but still quite good.

[RogueJK]

You can use polymorph for 50ft range attack via Giant Ape, or spell sniper + thorn whip for 60ft. You just need an appropriate set up for this. At 8th level you'll get flying wildshapes but at 7 a form with climbing speed or similar should be enough to get closer. From conjure woodland beings certain fyes also have fly + shorbtow (and polymorph if you get Pixies) and conjure minor elementals also kinda solves this. Conjure animals also has 60ft range, so at least for a round you're good.


A Shepherd Druid is unlikely to be using their Concentration on Polymorph in most combats, or bother Wild Shaping themselves into a single mere CR1/2 form and thereby cut off their further spellcasting options.

Even better than spending a 4th level spell slot and your Concentration to get a 50' ranged attack, or a whole feat to a get a 60' Thorn Whip, or Conjuring Satyrs with 80' shortbows, the Kobold's racial cantrip can be 2d8 Chill Touch or 2d10 Fire Bolt with 120' range, and the Druid spells Call Lightning, Moonbeam, Tidal Wave, Wall of Fire, and Erupting Earth also have 120' range. Ice Storm has a 300' range. And that's just the directly damaging long ranged Druid spells, not counting their long range control/hazard ranged spells like 150' Spike Growth, 120' Fog Cloud, 90' Entangle, 90' Confusion, etc.

More importantly, you can Summon/Conjure one or more highly mobile flying pets via Summon Beast, Conjure Animals, or Conjure Woodland Beings, which can appear 60' away and then quickly close the further distance to a ranged/flying enemy, all while still playing to the Shepherd's summoning-focused strengths like Mighty Summoner and their ally-buffing Spirit Totem auras. (Conjure Minor Elemental or Summon Elemental are also options for flying pets, though not being beast or fey they can't benefit from Mighty Summoner specifically.)

[DruidAlanon]

A Shepherd Druid is unlikely to be using their Concentration on Polymorph in most combats, or bother Wild Shaping themselves into a single mere CR1/2 form and thereby cut off their further spellcasting options.

Even better than spending a 4th level spell slot and your Concentration to get a 50' ranged attack, or a whole feat to a get a 60' Thorn Whip, or Conjuring Satyrs with 80' shortbows, the Kobold's racial cantrip can be 2d8 Chill Touch or 2d10 Fire Bolt with 120' range, and the Druid spells Call Lightning, Moonbeam, Tidal Wave, Wall of Fire, and Erupting Earth also have 120' range. Ice Storm has a 300' range. And that's just the directly damaging long ranged Druid spells, not counting their long range control/hazard ranged spells like 150' Spike Growth, 120' Fog Cloud, 90' Entangle, 90' Confusion, etc.

More importantly, you can Summon/Conjure one or more highly mobile flying pets via Summon Beast, Conjure Animals, or Conjure Woodland Beings, which can appear 60' away and then quickly close the further distance to a ranged/flying enemy, all while still playing to the Shepherd's summoning-focused strengths like Mighty Summoner and their ally-buffing Spirit Totem auras. (Conjure Minor Elemental or Summon Elemental are also options for flying pets, though not being beast or fey they can't benefit from Mighty Summoner specifically.)

All excellent points. I mentioned wildshape not as a combat form but as a way to close the distance if the enemy is in a hard to reach location.


Edit: I just reread the initial post. Now, if the game ends at lvl 7 (I thought it'd start there), maybe Moon stays stronger for longer. Levels 2-5 moon is king. Kobold shepherd is still very strong, and stronger once conjure animals etc become available but moon early on is the strongest sublcass in the game with no effort at all.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

All excellent points. I mentioned wildshape not as a combat form but as a way to close the distance if the enemy is in a hard to reach location.


Edit: I just reread the initial post. Now, if the game ends at lvl 7 (I thought it'd start there), maybe Moon stays stronger for longer. Levels 2-5 moon is king. Kobold shepherd is still very strong, and stronger once conjure animals etc become available but moon early on is the strongest sublcass in the game with no effort at all.

I get that Moons are strong. I've DMed 2 and have seen them in play a few times, including a current campaign. They have issues though. A full caster that can't cast spells most of the time is problematic; this gets worse as they level. Secondly, their AC is terrible in wildshape; the closest to death a character got in our current campaign was the Moon. The DM threw out 10 or 12 skeletons half of which turned the bear into a pin cushion. The other half fired at my Cleric an I think I got hit once. Wildshapes are definitely vulnerable to hordes with crappy attack modifiers that will barely scratch other characters.
Are Moons good? Yes. Outside of level 2/3 I can't say I've really had to adapt the way I DM the way I have for other characters.

[Keravath]

There are lots of good choices. Personally, I like the hexblade warlock 2/aberrant mind sorcerer 5. 1 sorcerer/2 warlock/ X sorcerer. Martial weapons/armor shield use charisma for your weapon attacks. Agonizing blast plus a second invocation. Booming blade. Shield spell.

Could start custom lineage with Fey Touched for 18 charisma. 20 charisma at character level 6.

[DruidAlanon]

I get that Moons are strong. I've DMed 2 and have seen them in play a few times, including a current campaign. They have issues though. A full caster that can't cast spells most of the time is problematic; this gets worse as they level. Secondly, their AC is terrible in wildshape; the closest to death a character got in our current campaign was the Moon. The DM threw out 10 or 12 skeletons half of which turned the bear into a pin cushion. The other half fired at my Cleric an I think I got hit once. Wildshapes are definitely vulnerable to hordes with crappy attack modifiers that will barely scratch other characters.
Are Moons good? Yes. Outside of level 2/3 I can't say I've really had to adapt the way I DM the way I have for other characters.

I am only half convinced. A Moon Druid does not have to go melee 1v12. For example, at 7th level he can cast divination 1 day in advance, learn that he's gonna fight undead and prepare a few AOE spells (wall of fire, spike growth, spells that deal bludgeoning dmg in general, etc) that will do the job for him. Even a standard plant growth, then fly over to the necromancer and beat the crap out of him eg as a quetzalcoatlus, will work quite well without any special preparation.

Moon's power curve is a bit weird, he reaches godhood at level 2, then slides until level 5 where he gets conjure animals but by this level Shepherd is kinda above Moon already. Then at level 6 he may get some CR 2 dinosaur wildshapes that boost him but until he gets his elemental forms, he will be an inferior primary spellcaster to Shepherd, and hence, weaker. Or at least that's how I would compare the two, despite my relative inexperience to the class.

[strangebloke]

nastiest thing to do to a moon druid is have an enemy cast sleep on them.

doesn't matter what your effective hp is, if your current total is below the margin, you lose your turn and have to get woken up!

[DruidAlanon]

nastiest thing to do to a moon druid is have an enemy cast sleep on them.

doesn't matter what your effective hp is, if your current total is below the margin, you lose your turn and have to get woken up!

As far as I know sleep affects 5d8 which is 23hp on average. That's roughly 1/3 of what Moon will have at level 7. If you upcast it using a 3rd level you reach 32hp which is closer to what he may have eg via giant elk, but it still is 50%+ of a giant constrictor snake. If you cast it later on or if he uses a flying creature then upcasted at even 2nd level may be worth trying?

[Damon_Tor]

Well, at level 7 you could have a Paladin with two auras (base and subclass). Watchers is my favorite.

I would counter with hexblade 1 vengeance paladin 6. That way you can be focused entirely on Cha, so you can have it at 18 via half-feat, probably elven accuracy. Baller saves, killer damage, great AC, all around a great Frontline build.

[strangebloke]

As far as I know sleep affects 5d8 which is 23hp on average. That's roughly 1/3 of what Moon will have at level 7. If you upcast it using a 3rd level you reach 32hp which is closer to what he may have eg via giant elk, but it still is 50%+ of a giant constrictor snake. If you cast it later on or if he uses a flying creature then upcasted at even 2nd level may be worth trying?

Well I was more speaking about lower level stuff like a giant spider, where the druid's hp will usually be higher than the wildshape's. But yes, you can upcast it and if it works its worth casting at the highest level slot your evil wizard boss has, since it will kill their concentration (sleep incapacitates, incapacitation kills concentration) and potentially 1-2 turns.

[Ogre Mage]

Variant Human Twilight Cleric 1-7 is an obvious choice. Twilight Domain gives you darkvision from the start. Feat choice is up to you, but I like Fey Touched as misty step is not normally accessible to clerics.

Custom Lineage Lore Bard 1-7. I suggest starting with the moderately armored feat which shores up the lore bard's poor AC. And at level 6 you get magical secrets which is a HUGE boost to your power.

Divination Wizard 1-7. Portent looms large at low levels before legendary resistances come into play.

Genie Warlock (dao) 1-7. You can apply genie's wrath to your eldritch blast right from level 1. Level 3-4 has spike growth and repelling blast shenanigans. Level 6 is huge as the genie warlock gets concentration-free flight three times a day for 10 minutes each and resistance to bludgeoning damage. At Level 7 cast shadows of moil and chuckle as your enemies struggle to hit you while you eldritch blast them with advantage. And you get to chill out in your magical vessel! What style!

[animorte]

I would counter with hexblade 1 vengeance paladin 6. That way you can be focused entirely on Cha, so you can have it at 18 via half-feat, probably elven accuracy. Baller saves, killer damage, great AC, all around a great Frontline build.
I agree. If that's what you're going for, it's certainly difficult to beat.


Genie Warlock (dao) 1-7. You can apply genie's wrath to your eldritch blast right from level 1. Level 3-4 has spike growth and repelling blast shenanigans. Level 6 is huge as the genie warlock gets concentration-free flight three times a day for 10 minutes each and resistance to bludgeoning damage. At Level 7 cast shadows of moil and chuckle as your enemies struggle to hit you while you eldritch blast them with advantage. And you get to chill out in your magical vessel! What style!
This was my next suggestion and is still one of my favorite characters. I used Repelling Blast and Relentless Hex (Hex on my Imp familiar for all day free Misty Step). So darn fun.

[Gignere]

I get that Moons are strong. I've DMed 2 and have seen them in play a few times, including a current campaign. They have issues though. A full caster that can't cast spells most of the time is problematic; this gets worse as they level. Secondly, their AC is terrible in wildshape; the closest to death a character got in our current campaign was the Moon. The DM threw out 10 or 12 skeletons half of which turned the bear into a pin cushion. The other half fired at my Cleric an I think I got hit once. Wildshapes are definitely vulnerable to hordes with crappy attack modifiers that will barely scratch other characters.
Are Moons good? Yes. Outside of level 2/3 I can't say I've really had to adapt the way I DM the way I have for other characters.

This is just bad play from your party’s moon druid, the moon druid I played with had almost the exact same situation. We were attack by 16 zombies, moon druid shifts out of animal form casts spike growth he catches 12 of them in it. The zombies literally killed themselves stumbling toward the party.

Made that triple deadly encounter into a cake walk.

[Ir0ns0ul]

vHuman Arcane Archer 5 / Daolock 2.

Optimize Grasping Arrow combined with Genie’s Wrath (Dao) + Crusher feat (from vHuman) + Hex to automatically trigger the 2d6 damage from Grasping Arrow.

[Snails]

Some Clerics are particularly strong around level 7 too. My last Tempest Cleric felt OP at levels 6-8. I was EASILY out damaging everybody else between Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, and being able to maximize thunder/lightning damage twice per short rest. If Control Water, Ice Storm, or any 4th level Cleric spell interests you, you could start Fighter 1 for Con saves and +1 AC and then take 6 levels of Tempest Cleric.

Shout out for Tempest Cleric from me.

Wrath of the Storm is borderline OP in T1, and it is still very useful in T2. Autohits are valuable in a flat math world. And being able to push as a reaction is fun -- I have seen it occasionally disrupt an enemy multiattack.

Destructive Wrath (channel to maximize thunder or lightning) makes Thunderwave/Shatter a staple spell that is well worth upcasting to 3rd, 4th, 5th level. In a tactically aggressive party, Spirit Guardians only does ~14 per round, which is not nearly as valuable as 32 damage immediately. Those d8s are juicy for upcasting and maximizing -- compare Flamestrike for ~28 to Shatter for 48. And when the locale is right, the Tempest goes with Call Lightning to maximize d10s! If you are doing a lot of fighting outdoors, I would dare rate the Tempest Cleric the optimal choice.

(A slight tangent: Because of Destructive Wrath, at levels 2-4 you are simply better at blasting than an Evocationist or Light Cleric. 24 damage of Shatter is much more impressive than ~14 points of upcast Burning Hands.)

With marital weapons and heavy armor, you are comfortable on the front line. And in a scrum, by judiciously spending some low levels slots for Thunderwave and Spiritual Weapon, you are not falling far behind what the Fighter is dishing out. Again, you are probably going to be able to "autohit" a pair of enemies with Thunderwave/Shatter, so your average damage is solid.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

This is just bad play from your partyÂ’s moon druid, the moon druid I played with had almost the exact same situation. We were attack by 16 zombies, moon druid shifts out of animal form casts spike growth he catches 12 of them in it. The zombies literally killed themselves stumbling toward the party.

Made that triple deadly encounter into a cake walk.

Skeletons won initiative and the Moon was already shapeshifted from the previous encounter.

I do agree with previous posts that Moons don't have to be shapeshifted all the time to be effective, as they are full casters. In that way they're good switch hitters. I tend to think one of their limits as switch hitters is that they can't just swap back and forth as frequently as most/ all others. Once you're shifted, you tend to want to stay that way and not waste a shift, even if your concentration spell expires or maybe you have to just close in a round where you might have cast another spell.

[Gignere]

Skeletons won initiative and the Moon was already shapeshifted from the previous encounter.

I do agree with previous posts that Moons don't have to be shapeshifted all the time to be effective, as they are full casters. In that way they're good switch hitters. I tend to think one of their limits as switch hitters is that they can't just swap back and forth as frequently as most/ all others. Once you're shifted, you tend to want to stay that way and not waste a shift, even if your concentration spell expires or maybe you have to just close in a round where you might have cast another spell.

Yeah that’s a player issue, you need to know when to give up your shift, that player was crazy good with the moon druid. When to keep it and when to just say fine the wildshape is wasted. Because falling back to spell casting is not like the moon druid is not contributing.

[strangebloke]

In fact, I'd argue wildshape is usually a trap for newbie moon druids. Wildshape, even on a moon druid, is basically a fallback plan for when you already have your broken concentration spell cast (spike growth, conjure animals, etc.) and you want to deal more damage than you otherwise could with cantrips / you want to soak damage for your allies.

[Gignere]

In fact, I'd argue wildshape is usually a trap for newbie moon druids. Wildshape, even on a moon druid, is basically a fallback plan for when you already have your broken concentration spell cast (spike growth, conjure animals, etc.) and you want to deal more damage than you otherwise could with cantrips / you want to soak damage for your allies.

Staying in wildshape for fear of losing the wildshape is definitely the hallmark of an inexperience moon druid player. It hurts your exploration and social pillars. As well as making you more vulnerable to surprises and ambushes, almost always the caster form has better defenses, outside of hp, than animal forms.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'm surprised no one has shilled for a Hexblade 1/Swords Bard 6, or just straight Swords Bard 7 for 4th level spells.

That, or plain ol' Bladesinger. Full wizard spellcasting, except at 6th and 7th, you get to Extra Attack with a cantrip.

[Rukelnikov]

That, or plain ol' Bladesinger. Full wizard spellcasting, except at 6th and 7th, you get to Extra Attack with a cantrip.

You know, Bladisnger is my favorite class, my most played character is a Bladesinger, but I always liked the older more combat focused ones, Grand Mastery (2e), Full Bab (3e), the current is ok, and it captures the feel much better now with the improved EA, but still feels more a caster than a melee combatant (dipping Paladin for Divine Smites remedies it a lot though :P)

[Blackflight]

Thanks for the replies everyone! A lot of very strong builds here! I suppose the one that springs to mind is the overpowered shepherd druid able to summon a bazillion creatures each turn. It sure is counterable by the DM, but relative power level to other classes is quite insane. I have tried playing a Moon druid myself and even with the "unbuffed" conjure animals, no one around the table (neither DM nor fellow players) found it fun whenever I would summon 8 CR 1/4 constrictor snakes at 5th level each able to auto restrain on hit.

I think the natural followup to this thread would be: "How to balance your way around this?" I've made a new thread below:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?654104-Implementing-character-creation-restrictions&p=25706012#post25706012

[KorvinStarmast]

I have tried playing a Moon druid myself and even with the "unbuffed" conjure animals, no one around the table (neither DM nor fellow players) found it fun whenever I would summon 8 CR 1/4 constrictor snakes at 5th level each able to auto restrain on hit.

I think the natural followup to this thread would be: "How to balance your way around this?" I've made a new thread below:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?654104-Implementing-character-creation-restrictions&p=25706012#post25706012 As a DM, and as a player, I have found that if the DM and Player work together, the problems you cite with summons go away.
A single Giant Constrictor Snake at spell level 3 (CR 2 beast) is sufficient (or two of them at spell level 5) to grapple (or try to) the most important enemies without dragging down the action economy.

The Shepherds Druid I DM'd for (before he switched to Stars) had four main packages:
2 Dire wolves
2 Giant Eagles
2 Bears
2 Giant Octopus

Depending on what he was facing and what the party was doing at level.
Because he was competent as both DM and player, he ran the animals and it worked.

Conjure Woodland Beings was something we messed about with, but he didn't use it all that often.

[Witty Username]

The conjure spells are not all that problematic for a prepared player/DM, my table has, more or less by gentlemen's agreement, that creatures are picked prior to play. The characters it has come up for picked 1-2 creatures and that is what they would use when they wanted to cast.

What I find notable is that the summon spells can actually be more complex, as they need to be calculated for each form and slot used. I would recommend gratuitous use of notecards in both cases.

Oh, and animate dead is trivial in actual play in comparison to either option. Two notecards and you can cover the entire spell. And most people don't mix and match skeletons and zombies.

[Eldariel]

Just nerf Conjure Animals to 4/3/2/1. Still great but this way it's not always optimal to summon CR 1/4s; instead, all options have their place. I've played with 4/3/2/1 CA both as DM and as player and it just feels much better (that way you don't need to self-nerf to be fun or balanced by picking terrible options; it's still the best level 3 spell but not by such a wide margin as to entirely take over the game and replace the party).

[Arkhios]

Depends what you want to do.

Most classes are good at 7th level, regardless of their role or individual details.

I prefer playing a "tank" so, this is just my opinion, for melee ("tank"):
- Oath of the Ancients Paladin becomes great exactly at 7th level, but playing a paladin comes with certain built-in playstyle restrictions (in short, melee only, whether strength or dexterity, it's mostly up to you, but from multiclass perspective, strength is easier)
- Cavalier Fighter, also becomes great starting at 7th level, but is also very restricted in playstyle, due to heavy reliance on both Strength and Constitution scores.
- Hunter Ranger, if you take the Colossus Slayer and Multiattack Defense, is surprisingly good tank at 7th level.

[Slingbow]

Variant Human Twilight Cleric 1-7 is an obvious choice. Twilight Domain gives you darkvision from the start. Feat choice is up to you, but I like Fey Touched as misty step is not normally accessible to clerics.

Custom Lineage Lore Bard 1-7. I suggest starting with the moderately armored feat which shores up the lore bard's poor AC. And at level 6 you get magical secrets which is a HUGE boost to your power.

Divination Wizard 1-7. Portent looms large at low levels before legendary resistances come into play.

Genie Warlock (dao) 1-7. You can apply genie's wrath to your eldritch blast right from level 1. Level 3-4 has spike growth and repelling blast shenanigans. Level 6 is huge as the genie warlock gets concentration-free flight three times a day for 10 minutes each and resistance to bludgeoning damage. At Level 7 cast shadows of moil and chuckle as your enemies struggle to hit you while you eldritch blast them with advantage. And you get to chill out in your magical vessel! What style!

I really like how multiclassing seems to be falling out of fashion. I haven't multiclassed in like 3 years. I love the Genie Warlock and Enchanter Wizard. The new feats like Telepathic make it even easier to get the frills you like while sticking with your chosen class. But to my cring I have to admit that a level 7 paladin is a pretty tough customer.

[Eldariel]

I really like how multiclassing seems to be falling out of fashion. I haven't multiclassed in like 3 years. I love the Genie Warlock and Enchanter Wizard. The new feats like Telepathic make it even easier to get the frills you like while sticking with your chosen class. But to my cring I have to admit that a level 7 paladin is a pretty tough customer.

Multiclassing has just never been that good. Like it has its upsides and proponents, but single-classed characters of good classes (ergo ones that actually get stuff while leveling, so mostly full casters) generally outperform multiclass builds outside few niches and in most levels, the strongest build in the game is single-classed. However, multiclassing appeals to optimizers because then there is something to optimize. Single-classed characters are just pretty easy to build and there isn't that much interesting stuff to optimize, so obviously people tend to focus on the ones with more options. The more time people have had to work on the system, the more cognizant they seem to be about this.

[strangebloke]

Multiclassing has just never been that good. Like it has its upsides and proponents, but single-classed characters of good classes (ergo ones that actually get stuff while leveling, so mostly full casters) generally outperform multiclass builds outside few niches and in most levels, the strongest build in the game is single-classed. However, multiclassing appeals to optimizers because then there is something to optimize. Single-classed characters are just pretty easy to build and there isn't that much interesting stuff to optimize, so obviously people tend to focus on the ones with more options. The more time people have had to work on the system, the more cognizant they seem to be about this.

Agreed completely. Multiclassing is only a strict upside for classes that are pretty bad by default. You look at something like a barbarian, they do benefit from a few levels of druid.... or a lot of levels of druid! In fact, you're probably going to be stronger if you just play a druid entirely!

For classes that are top tier in strength, the most important thing is almost always getting to the next level of spell slot and delaying that makes you measurably weaker. Delaying Simulacrum or Wish or Force Cage isn't worth the small upsides of multiclassing, which is generally a few low level spells known and +2 AC. The very best combos like hexvoker or (at high level) fighter 2 give you a big damage bomb, but again.... is that worth giving up simulacrum? Or Wish?

as specific breakpoints like level 14 or level 20 there's an argument, but multiclassing is generally for flavor, not power (unless you're playing a barbarian or rogue or whatever.)

[tiornys]

Agreed completely. Multiclassing is only a strict upside for classes that are pretty bad by default. You look at something like a barbarian, they do benefit from a few levels of druid.... or a lot of levels of druid! In fact, you're probably going to be stronger if you just play a druid entirely!

For classes that are top tier in strength, the most important thing is almost always getting to the next level of spell slot and delaying that makes you measurably weaker. Delaying Simulacrum or Wish or Force Cage isn't worth the small upsides of multiclassing, which is generally a few low level spells known and +2 AC. The very best combos like hexvoker or (at high level) fighter 2 give you a big damage bomb, but again.... is that worth giving up simulacrum? Or Wish?

as specific breakpoints like level 14 or level 20 there's an argument, but multiclassing is generally for flavor, not power (unless you're playing a barbarian or rogue or whatever.)
Delaying spell progression by 1 level is absolutely worth it in many cases. An Artificer 1/Wizard 6 is overall superior to a Wizard 7 from levels 1 to 7 thanks to the massive survivability (it's more like +5 AC than +2) and early concentration boosts, but at level 7 the Wizard 7 is better--and Wizard 7 doesn't suck from 1-6--so the correct answer for this thread is Wizard 7.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Without specifics my mind goes to covering bases or overall utility. That said, if I was told I needed to be useful from 1-7 but told nothing about my party.

Race: 1/2 Elf
Rogue 1/Artificer 1-5/Rogue 2

Stats Default: Str: 10, Dex: 13(14), Con: 14, Int: 15(16), Wis: 12, Cha: 8(10)

Subclass: Armorer.

You are 1 level behind the curve on Artificer but have 8 skills to start the game with + Thief Tools.

Take the Thief Sub Sub Class and you're ultimately planning to rock Breast Plate and Shield so AC is 18 without infusions, you get Advantage on all Stealth Checks, can pick locks, can fill out your skills to cover almost anything the party needs, you have Healing the ability to tank (And Dodge Tank at level 7 with Rogue Bonus Actions.)

[Eldariel]

Delaying spell progression by 1 level is absolutely worth it in many cases. An Artificer 1/Wizard 6 is overall superior to a Wizard 7 from levels 1 to 7 thanks to the massive survivability (it's more like +5 AC than +2) and early concentration boosts, but at level 7 the Wizard 7 is better--and Wizard 7 doesn't suck from 1-6--so the correct answer for this thread is Wizard 7.

That really depends. You miss out on big guns: a competent party will miss the straight Wizard's ability to bring top level spells to bear when needed on odd levels. This means it'll be a much worse inclusion in the party on 1, 3, 5, 7. Further, a Wizard can get 16 AC on level 1 easily enough, at the cost of Mage Armor and 16 Dex (16 Int/Dex and 15 Con is a very reasonable starting line-up for Variant Human for instance), which still leaves two encounter enders over the day or emergency Silvery Barbs if someone is getting pasted with a crit.While the Wizard a familiar that can just Flyby Help against any non-ranged enemies with impunity and even ranged enemies have to waste a potentially lethal anti-PC attack on it (best Potion ever). Meanwhile, a level 1 Artificer has 17 AC before they get their armor upgrades. It's not really a competition as the Artificer level 1 list kinda sucks. Same with level 2 spells: missing out on Web, Dragon's Breath, Levitate/Suggestion/Earthen Grasp/Phantasmal Force for a level can be hugely detrimental. And level 5 is beyond huge: Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, Phantasmal Steed, Tiny Hut alone (like any of those) is just better than any reasonable amount of AC.

Then we get to level 2. That's where you pick up your subclass on a straight Wizard. This can range from largely irrelevant (Transmuter's ability is useful but not amazing for instance) to crazy good (Bladesinger becomes a better frontline than the Artificer/Wizard twice per day because there's no way the Artificer Wizard has a Half-Plate by this point while also having competitive Concentration bonus, War Wizard/Chronurgist becomes really good at ending encounters and both have their flair of awesome tacked on it, and Diviner gets THE best ability for punching above your weight class in the game and taking down superbig opponents among others). If we pick something relatively optimal, this is going to be really good for the Wizard and I'd struggle to say that I'd prefer the Artificer 1/Wizard 1 here even though it is really strong here too.

Level 4 and level 6 should favour the Artificer/Wizard in most cases though it's worth noting that due to the power of the level 3 rituals, two extra spells known from level 3 is pretty darn big on level 6 and some subclasses get huge stuff here (Bladesinger stands out again with their super-Extra Attack and Scribes is really bonkers at this point too, while Diviner, Necromancer, Enchanter, etc. are opening some goodies too). Level 4 is mostly Alert or Lucky or Res: Con vs. Artificer; I'd generally take the Artificer side though lacking Wis save proficiency is a giant pain far as maintaining Concentration goes (stuff like Hideous Laughter, Hold Person, Command, various monstrous charms like Harpy song, etc. end Concentration, put your character to the murderzone, and begin to hit very early from any humanoid or fey or even demonic opposition) so it's not clear-cut even if you go Res: Con (but I'd generally say Lucky or Alert is better here).


Overall, I really don't agree that Artificer 1/Wizard X is better than straight Wizard on majority of the levels. It's occasionally better (Sanctuary, Magic Stone, and Guidance are all good though Guidance diminishes quite quickly if you have multiples and Magic Stone is a build-around while Sanctuary faces some stiff slot competition in Silvery Barbs, Shield & Absorb Elements) but even there, straight Wizard usually has some good stuff going on for them. On most levels, assuming a party that has competent party members and is tactically solid (so for example your frontline(s) is/are Clerics or Druids, and thus actually has the ability to control space and make life hard for enemies while simultaneously being extremely undesirable targets and still being able to play the kite game), I do think I would rather have a straight Wizard though if the campaign isn't insanely brutal, there's nothing wrong with an Artificer/Wizard either. But for best 1-20, straight Wizard will largely come out on top assuming the party is again capable of basic tactical play and has the tools to play said game.

[strangebloke]

Delaying spell progression by 1 level is absolutely worth it in many cases. An Artificer 1/Wizard 6 is overall superior to a Wizard 7 from levels 1 to 7 thanks to the massive survivability (it's more like +5 AC than +2) and early concentration boosts, but at level 7 the Wizard 7 is better--and Wizard 7 doesn't suck from 1-6--so the correct answer for this thread is Wizard 7.

Well it depends. At level 2 I would say that the multiclass is a massive advantage. At level 5, the MC would be very very bad. At level 6, the MC would be good again. At level 7, it'd be less good.

Either way its "strong" but as far as the best option it really comes down to the specific breakpoints you're using.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I really like how multiclassing seems to be falling out of fashion. I haven't multiclassed in like 3 years. I love the Genie Warlock and Enchanter Wizard. The new feats like Telepathic make it even easier to get the frills you like while sticking with your chosen class. But to my cring I have to admit that a level 7 paladin is a pretty tough customer.

In general I've almost always found a straight class was stronger. A few exceptions like snagging a Hexblade Level for a Paladin or such not withstanding.

Almost every time I MC it's because I want something specific, not because it'll be stronger. My Hexblade/Paladin sunk 3 levels into Hexblade specifically because I wanted the Blade Pact for theme and flavor. Several of my characters have a level or 2 of rogue purely because I wanted extra skills for some reason.

[tiornys]

That really depends. You miss out on big guns: a competent party will miss the straight Wizard's ability to bring top level spells to bear when needed on odd levels. This means it'll be a much worse inclusion in the party on 1, 3, 5, 7. --snip--

Well it depends. At level 2 I would say that the multiclass is a massive advantage. At level 5, the MC would be very very bad. At level 6, the MC would be good again. At level 7, it'd be less good.

Either way its "strong" but as far as the best option it really comes down to the specific breakpoints you're using.
Well, first I'd agree that straight Wizard is better if you expect to go largely untargeted. I'd say there are two major factors that contribute to my holding a different opinion. First is the estimation of how realistic it is to expect to go largely untargeted. Within the context of optimization, I expect optimized tactics from the monsters as well as from the PCs, and given that I don't think even an optimized party can reliably protect a soft target (though the example of Clerics + Druids for a functional "front line" is great, it also doesn't properly come online until tier 2). Thus I likely put more weight on the higher AC, and on concentration protection in general. (re: Mage Armor, yes that lessens the AC gap by 1 but it does so at the cost of a spell slot per day and a spells known pick; similarly buying a 16 Dex has relevant costs--the Wis save isn't likely to be much different between the builds early on, and by the time the proficiency bonus is growing both builds want to be taking Resilient anyway)

More importantly, I think I rate certain key spells differently than you do, and therefore put less weight on the power difference at odd levels. At level 3 when the Arti/Wiz is missing Web, Sleep is still at a comparable power level. At level 5 when the Arti/Wiz is missing Hypnotic Pattern, they have Web which is not that much weaker than Hypnotic Pattern (nothing compensates for Fireball though; this is the level of largest power gap). At level 7 they have Hypnotic Pattern and upcast Fireball. At level 9 they have Hypnotic Pattern and Polymorph. At level 11 and 13 they have Wall of Force. At level 15 and 17 they have Forcecage.

So I agree that the Arti/Wiz is weaker at levels 3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17, but I also believe the amount by which they are weaker in those levels is less than the amount they are stronger at levels 2/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18+.

Also @Eldariel, I think you underrate the utility of the Artificer L1 spell list. Because you have access to all of the spells on that list, you can pick up several extra rituals by scribing them over during downtime. The rest of the time you get to have a number of nice utility spells prepped (e.g. Feather Fall, Longstrider, Grease) without tying up Wizard preps/spell picks.

[Kane0]

Well if youre picking a full caster you probably wouldnt want to multiclass and lose those 4th level spells. I'm partial to Warlock but theres plenty of other strong options like Bladesinger, Twilight Cleric, Shepherd Druid, Aberrant Sorc and good old fashioned Lore Bard.
If youre not playing a full caster you likely want a 5/2 split for extra attack, unless you are going with rogue then something like 4/3 for two subclasses is on the table. Fighters get that juicy second ASI, and with a subclass breakpoint at 7 isnt bad as a single-class contender really. The paladin's level 6 aura is a gamechanger and not to be ignored, and are just really good in general

[Gignere]

Well if youre picking a full caster you probably wouldnt want to multiclass and lose those 4th level spells. I'm partial to Warlock but theres plenty of other strong options like Bladesinger, Twilight Cleric, Shepherd Druid, Aberrant Sorc and good old fashioned Lore Bard.
If youre not playing a full caster you likely want a 5/2 split for extra attack, unless you are going with rogue then something like 4/3 for two subclasses is on the table. Fighters get that juicy second ASI, and with a subclass breakpoint at 7 isnt bad as a single-class contender really. The paladin's level 6 aura is a gamechanger and not to be ignored, and are just really good in general

Yes generally speaking the multi class optimized builds don’t really come online until level 11+. Like the hexvoker, level 11 is when you can stack both +int and + proficiency damage to magic missile. Before that it isn’t that much better than a straight wizard.

Another example is the sorcadin before level 11 you really don’t get that much out of sorcerer besides shield and absorb elements which can be really good. However by level 11 you can have a 6/5 split or 7/4 split giving you extra slots to smite and the feats needed to cast shield spell while using a shield, and having the benefit of the level 6 aura and/or level 7 feature. This is also the level where the sorcadin starts to pull ahead of the straight Paladin, at least in terms of novaing and stacking AC.

There are many examples where until you can get the second classes subclass up and running along with extra attack or level 6/7 features the multi class build is at most equal or even weaker than the straight class. However once you get the benefit of the second classes’s subclass feature going it will leapfrog and match and potentially exceed the single class’s higher level features.

[strangebloke]

Well, first I'd agree that straight Wizard is better if you expect to go largely untargeted. I'd say there are two major factors that contribute to my holding a different opinion. First is the estimation of how realistic it is to expect to go largely untargeted. Within the context of optimization, I expect optimized tactics from the monsters as well as from the PCs, and given that I don't think even an optimized party can reliably protect a soft target (though the example of Clerics + Druids for a functional "front line" is great, it also doesn't properly come online until tier 2). Thus I likely put more weight on the higher AC, and on concentration protection in general. (re: Mage Armor, yes that lessens the AC gap by 1 but it does so at the cost of a spell slot per day and a spells known pick; similarly buying a 16 Dex has relevant costs--the Wis save isn't likely to be much different between the builds early on, and by the time the proficiency bonus is growing both builds want to be taking Resilient anyway)

More importantly, I think I rate certain key spells differently than you do, and therefore put less weight on the power difference at odd levels. At level 3 when the Arti/Wiz is missing Web, Sleep is still at a comparable power level. At level 5 when the Arti/Wiz is missing Hypnotic Pattern, they have Web which is not that much weaker than Hypnotic Pattern (nothing compensates for Fireball though; this is the level of largest power gap). At level 7 they have Hypnotic Pattern and upcast Fireball. At level 9 they have Hypnotic Pattern and Polymorph. At level 11 and 13 they have Wall of Force. At level 15 and 17 they have Forcecage.

So I agree that the Arti/Wiz is weaker at levels 3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17, but I also believe the amount by which they are weaker in those levels is less than the amount they are stronger at levels 2/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18+.

Also @Eldariel, I think you underrate the utility of the Artificer L1 spell list. Because you have access to all of the spells on that list, you can pick up several extra rituals by scribing them over during downtime. The rest of the time you get to have a number of nice utility spells prepped (e.g. Feather Fall, Longstrider, Grease) without tying up Wizard preps/spell picks.
I mean, even for specifically the wizard.

at level 2 you're delaying up a powerful arcane tradition feature like bladesinging or war magic which could give you much the same benefit as the medium armor for no delayed spell progression
at level 4 you're giving up an ASI, which has huge potential use cases.
at level 6, again, giving up an arcane tradition feature which depending on subclass could be huge

2-3 AC is a big deal, particularly in conjunction with shield but I truly do not feel as though its worth enough to justify all these downsides.

Again, I've played a LOT of competitive DND pvp, and let me just say: the MC builds do not perform that well versus normy single class builds until high levels.

[tiornys]

I mean, even for specifically the wizard.

at level 2 you're delaying up a powerful arcane tradition feature like bladesinging or war magic which could give you much the same benefit as the medium armor for no delayed spell progression
at level 4 you're giving up an ASI, which has huge potential use cases.
at level 6, again, giving up an arcane tradition feature which depending on subclass could be huge

2-3 AC is a big deal, particularly in conjunction with shield but I truly do not feel as though its worth enough to justify all these downsides.
First, I believe that's +5 AC, or +4 AC and either an extra spell slot or better stats outside of Dex, or +3 AC and both an extra spell slot and better stats outside of Dex. And second, starting Artificer also offers several benefits besides just the AC boost, all of which contribute to justifying the multiclass. Yes, you will always be one level behind on various Wizard things, but you will also always be 1 level ahead on Artificer.


Again, I've played a LOT of competitive DND pvp, and let me just say: the MC builds do not perform that well versus normy single class builds until high levels.
I will happily believe that PVP optimization comes to different build priorities than PVE optimization, just as PVE optimization varies based on numerous table idiosyncracies.

[strangebloke]

First, I believe that's +5 AC, or +4 AC and either an extra spell slot or better stats outside of Dex, or +3 AC and both an extra spell slot and better stats outside of Dex. And second, starting Artificer also offers several benefits besides just the AC boost, all of which contribute to justifying the multiclass. Yes, you will always be one level behind on various Wizard things, but you will also always be 1 level ahead on Artificer.

I will happily believe that PVP optimization comes to different build priorities than PVE optimization, just as PVE optimization varies based on numerous table idiosyncracies.[/QUOTE]

This is just a load of equivocation. The benefits of artificer 1 do not in any way outweigh the benefits of wizard X. The only factor that balances the equation at all is the AC, which, yes, is +4 or +5 if you forgo mage armor for an 'equivalent' analysis. However, 'forgoing mage armor' is not a reasonable thing to factor in as a tradeoff past level 5 at the latest, at which point the discrepancy becomes +2/+3 as I mentioned. Given how fast those early levels go by, I don't consider them super important. Optimizing for strength at level 2 isn't something I can take seriously.

Certainly, by level 18, which you mentioned, the AC difference of (by that point) +1 or so barely ranks compared to something like spell mastery.

[tiornys]

Certainly, by level 18, which you mentioned, the AC difference of (by that point) +1 or so barely ranks compared to something like spell mastery.
Are you assuming investment in Dexterity to reduce the AC difference? If so, then it's not the AC difference you should evaluate but the feats that have been skipped.

[diplomancer]

Well, first I'd agree that straight Wizard is better if you expect to go largely untargeted. I'd say there are two major factors that contribute to my holding a different opinion. First is the estimation of how realistic it is to expect to go largely untargeted. Within the context of optimization, I expect optimized tactics from the monsters as well as from the PCs, and given that I don't think even an optimized party can reliably protect a soft target (though the example of Clerics + Druids for a functional "front line" is great, it also doesn't properly come online until tier 2). Thus I likely put more weight on the higher AC, and on concentration protection in general. (re: Mage Armor, yes that lessens the AC gap by 1 but it does so at the cost of a spell slot per day and a spells known pick; similarly buying a 16 Dex has relevant costs--the Wis save isn't likely to be much different between the builds early on, and by the time the proficiency bonus is growing both builds want to be taking Resilient anyway)

More importantly, I think I rate certain key spells differently than you do, and therefore put less weight on the power difference at odd levels. At level 3 when the Arti/Wiz is missing Web, Sleep is still at a comparable power level. At level 5 when the Arti/Wiz is missing Hypnotic Pattern, they have Web which is not that much weaker than Hypnotic Pattern (nothing compensates for Fireball though; this is the level of largest power gap). At level 7 they have Hypnotic Pattern and upcast Fireball. At level 9 they have Hypnotic Pattern and Polymorph. At level 11 and 13 they have Wall of Force. At level 15 and 17 they have Forcecage.

So I agree that the Arti/Wiz is weaker at levels 3/5/7/9/11/13/15/17, but I also believe the amount by which they are weaker in those levels is less than the amount they are stronger at levels 2/4/6/8/10/12/14/16/18+.

Also @Eldariel, I think you underrate the utility of the Artificer L1 spell list. Because you have access to all of the spells on that list, you can pick up several extra rituals by scribing them over during downtime. The rest of the time you get to have a number of nice utility spells prepped (e.g. Feather Fall, Longstrider, Grease) without tying up Wizard preps/spell picks.

And one more thing to consider: on the odd levels (after 5 at least), it's just one spell per day that the full wizard is better. And not a lot better, as the multi-class can still, say, upcast a Summon spell to 4th level, a very good use of a 4th level slot. Still not as good as Polymorph, true, but perfectly serviceable... And for the rest of the day the Art 1/Wizard X is far less constrained with his preparations, and has a considerably higher AC.

[Eldariel]

And one more thing to consider: on the odd levels (after 5 at least), it's just one spell per day that the full wizard is better. And not a lot better, as the multi-class can still, say, upcast a Summon spell to 4th level, a very good use of a 4th level slot. Still not as good as Polymorph, true, but perfectly serviceable... And for the rest of the day the Art 1/Wizard X is far less constrained with his preparations, and has a considerably higher AC.

Two, accounting for Arcane Recovery (which also gets delayed on odd levels by multiclassing). And again, the big question is how tough the campaign is: if the campaign is such that it's not really that dangerous or brutal, it doesn't overtly matter but if you face really tough encounters, you will miss the strongest possible contribution in the tough encounters: essentially you're ending the probably-most-dangerous encounter or two less efficiently meaning the party will take more enemy offensive actions and thus lose more resources. It's a really rough call to claim that your personal AC outweighs the overall extra offense your party has to endure in exchange: you better make that AC work for your party then and try and force enemies to attack you.

And once you get to Tier 3+, slots don't really matter that much. You begin getting superlong duration/permanent stuff like Magic Jar, Contingency, Simulacrum, etc.

[strangebloke]

Are you assuming investment in Dexterity to reduce the AC difference? If so, then it's not the AC difference you should evaluate but the feats that have been skipped.
Its pretty easy to start with 16 Dexterity. You don't need to invest anything serious to get there.

with mage armor that gives you 16 AC, which is 2 lower than a breastplate+shield wizard and 3 lower than a halfplate+shield wizard. So no, no investment into DEX beyond 'taking vhuman/harrengon instead of clineage' or something like that.

Note that you have older races like the hobgoblin that let you get medium armor+shield with only a single half-feat, so there are ways of achieving this effect without spending a whole level.

And one more thing to consider: on the odd levels (after 5 at least), it's just one spell per day that the full wizard is better. And not a lot better, as the multi-class can still, say, upcast a Summon spell to 4th level, a very good use of a 4th level slot. Still not as good as Polymorph, true, but perfectly serviceable... And for the rest of the day the Art 1/Wizard X is far less constrained with his preparations, and has a considerably higher AC.

As Eldariel pointed out, its more than just one spell slot.

But the real important thing here is spells known. High level spells are really good, and not just the ones you cast with slots in an adventuring day. 5th level for example does give you fireball and hypnotic pattern and such, but it also gives you access to rituals like phantom steed which are huge force multipliers for your whole team. Water Breathing is similar. At higher levels you have simulacrum, which is a truly excellent spell even if you can't use it all the time. Not to mention that a lot of wizard class features scale off number of wizard levels, which creates an effect similar to that of a monk. If you're playing with a thorns abjurer for example, losing a level is costly because it decreases the size of your ward.

[sambojin]

Since you're probably in a fairly optimised party, I'd go with the "can do everything else" style of optimisation.

(old)Firbolg Grassland Druid 7 w/Telekinetic
+1Con, +2Wis +1TeleWis
8Str 14Dex 15+1Con 8Int 15+2+1Wis 10Cha
Perception and Insight, Pirate Background, swap the doubled perception to Stealth. Athletics is just grapple protection, but plenty of wildshape forms love it as well.

Have tonnes of spells known, tonnes prepped, with some auto-prepped. 4slotlevels of arcane regen. Wildshape + familiars.

At lvl8 grab +2Wis or Resilient(Con). Or Alert.

You're a good buffer, controller, summoner, stealther, scouter, and can do a bit in combat. You can move your spell loadout around tremendously. You've got a bit of short rest magic that's actually quite useful, and can speak to animals. You can be an animal. Polymorph or Conjure Fey or Conjure Animals or Summon Beast/Fey ensures you're always able to contribute in combat, and you have enough of it for all the combat encounters in a day, but just slapping a lockdown spell on something/s is fine too. Have fun helping with Telekinetic, and it works in wildshape. Feel free to use your summoned Fey as a face when necessary. Also has a weirdly high 240lb basic encumbrance, even with 8Str.

Works with any party, and people underestimate just how much magic a Land Druid brings (your spells last 1min-1hr), but you can go quite blast happy when you're bored as well with Tidal Wave, Flaming Sphere, Moonbeam and Ice Knife. That extra spell slot or two a day is huge on Druids, and having 17spells prepped (7Druid+ 4Wis+ 6landautos) means you really do have whatever a party needs, especially alongside CR1/2Swim wildshape (that's about to go to CR1Fly next level). Good for any sort of adventure. It's more "what do I want to do today?" rather than "how can I contribute well?", and that's a form of optimisation in of itself.

((Also works really well at every level along the way. Even has a couple of dumb gimmicks like Spike Growth+ Thorn Whip+ Telekinesis at lvl4, which aren't really that powerful, but are fun to use. Being a Telekinetic Warhorse being ridden by a lvl2/3/4 Summoned Land Beast Monkey is also surprisingly powerful in combat, and you can do that sort of stuff all day if you want, and still have an owl familiar for spot helpies sometimes))

[tiornys]

Its pretty easy to start with 16 Dexterity. You don't need to invest anything serious to get there.

with mage armor that gives you 16 AC, which is 2 lower than a breastplate+shield wizard and 3 lower than a halfplate+shield wizard. So no, no investment into DEX beyond 'taking vhuman/harrengon instead of clineage' or something like that.

Note that you have older races like the hobgoblin that let you get medium armor+shield with only a single half-feat, so there are ways of achieving this effect without spending a whole level.
Yes, I'm aware you can start with 16 Dex. However, you said this:

Certainly, by level 18, which you mentioned, the AC difference of (by that point) +1 or so barely ranks compared to something like spell mastery.
How are you reducing the AC difference from +3 to only +1 if not by investing further ASIs into Dexterity?

ASIs are scarcer than levels, so I'm not impressed by Hobgoblin + Moderately Armored here, especially as you're spending an effective 2 ASIs on it compared with CLineage/VHuman.

[tokek]

I'm going to go a different direction to some of the other suggestions here, leaning hard into a buff and healbot build.

Cleric (Peace) 1 / Warlock (Celestial) 6
Mark of Healing Halfling (assuming Tasha's option to move asi is in play, otherwise you need a Cha boosting race)

So out of the doors we have a Peace Cleric and that is far from a bad pick at level 1. You have an extra heal from the race choice so go ahead and use Bless every now and again to really stack up the bonus 1d4. An extra social skill is nice on what is basically a Cha build. Medium armor and shield will do well enough for the levels you are playing.

Then we go Warlock - Celestial Warlock is a really good healbot with all-rounder abilities. At lower levels a celestial warlock outperforms a life cleric for burst healing and outperforms most things for "pick up a downed ally" ability which is all-important in the action economy.

Your key abilities - Eldritch Blast for ranged damage and Emboldening Bond for party buffing - scale off PB not class level so the multiclass does not hurt you as much as many.

I would go Pact of the Chain. That imp stays very relevant all the way to level 7 and Gift of the Ever Living Ones makes you very durable indeed. Plus your imp can slip you a healing potion if you are the one downed.

You only get one ASI with this build and there are lots of strong choices. Personally I would go with either Lucky or Bountiful Luck. But I love dice manipulation.

Strong buffs, strong healing, tolerable damage output and strong utility from the multiple cantrips and imp familiar. Its just a good all-round build all the way from level 1 to 7.

[Corran]

Here is my party of 4 at level 7.

Level 7 Twilight Cleric - since you are level 7 you get 2 twilight sanctuarys per rest. That nets 1d6+7 temp HP each round when something ends it's turn in it. As an emergency you are also a good tank to be able to step up in combat. Amazing darkvision and can give it to someone else as well. Then you have full cleric spells for out of combat utility and wisdom based skills.

Level 7 Shepherd Druid - Conjures creatures that do magical damage and gets crazy amounts of THP from the Twilight Cleric. Then you use Hawk Spirit Totem to give all creates advantage to make it more likely for them to hit and do damage. This also nets you pass without a trace and other great Druid spells and wisdom based skills

Level 7 Evocation Wizard - Can blast like a champ and avoid hurting the summons running around while doing it. Also it's a Wizard, so you have rituals up the wazoo and can prep for anything and int based spells

Level 7 Oath of Ancients Wizard - Tanks really well, can nova damage on a single target, charisma skills, and the two auras do an amazing job of protecting everyone against spells that would nuke. This keeps those summons around more and lets them do damage.


I'm pretty sure that there aren't any challenges this party couldn't overcome. That being said, I would absolutely hate DMing this table because I'm pretty sure you can't beat them.
That's a good party!

I'd do a few things differently, though I am not 100% sure if that would improve things.

For example, I might not go for evocation, since sculpt spells cannot make up for too many summons (as well as allies who might also want to be in the mix), also (and more importantly) since between stuff like spirit guardians, the twilight cleric's "aura" and summons you've got enough staying power to deal with enemies who blob (ie melee enemies). But since I would keep a wizard in the mix, I might go for divination or illusion instead (with conjuration being another idea thanks both to the teleport-like ability and to the additional summons). Reason being that the shepherd druid and secondarily the cleric do ask to be focused down, so using illusions to "hide" them, or maybe better yet, using save or suck spells like banishment and the like against enemies who try to do so, could be handy. I would consider evocation, though mostly for the magic missile trick, since the party is light on ranged attacks. Though this I would mitigate by making everyone a ranged attacker on top of what else they would do. So for example after grabbing conjure animals and spirit guardians respectively, I'd probably throw 2 warlock levels on top of the druid and the cleric respectively (similarly armor on the wizard).

The 4th character could be another fullcaster, though a paladin with a caster dip and strong ranged attacks on top of melee nova and auras/spell support would do fine as well.

The idea being that since with druid summons and twilight healing and maybe spiit guardians you can outlast most melee enemies, the emphasis is then placed on dealing with ranged enemies (through your own ranged attacks or sight manipulation among other things that you will end up getting anyway; such as mobility), and with melee hard hitting enemies who are too much of a pain to outlast (and thus you want to shut down, bring down quickly or take down from range). Then rounding every character with enough defense "points" so that you dont have any too obvious weak points for the enemy to focus (they can still focus, and ideally for them they still want to do that, but making the choice less optimal by shoring down defense cost effectively is the way I'd go).

Edit: I think moon > shepherd for the levels we are talking.

[Ogre Mage]

Oh, are we putting together an optimized 4 person party that plays together from 1-7? Then my answer is a bit different from earlier (which was more about individually strong characters).

Twilight Cleric 1-7. This one was also on my earlier list. It's presence doesn't need an explanation.

Moon Druid 1-7. Arguably the strongest subclass in the game from levels 2-4. Souped up wildshape solves so many problems. It is particularly terrifying with twilight sanctuary giving temporary HP every round.

Pact of the Blade Hexblade 6/Divine Soul Sorcerer 1. A hexblade is extremely strong at the lower levels who can both fight in melee and shoot eldritch blast. The hexblade also acts as the face of the party. The sorcerer level adds a critical few extra spell slots and spells known for defensive purposes and the saving throw bonus.

Mountain Dwarf Chronurgy Wizard 1-7. This is the most specific build I am recommending. The mountain dwarf was specifically chosen because it can wear medium armor and thereby does not need to spend a precious spell slot on mage armor. Under Tasha's you can have +2 Int instead of +2 Str. +2 Con helps survivability. Once you get to 2nd level, chronal shift (rerolls) and temporal awareness (initiative bonus) are powerful advantages. Use them to get the drop on your opponents.

[strangebloke]

Yes, I'm aware you can start with 16 Dex. However, you said this:

How are you reducing the AC difference from +3 to only +1 if not by investing further ASIs into Dexterity?

ASIs are scarcer than levels, so I'm not impressed by Hobgoblin + Moderately Armored here, especially as you're spending an effective 2 ASIs on it compared with CLineage/VHuman.

How many ASIs is casting Shapechange 1/day worth? Well, to answer this question you'd have to ask whether people would take a feat that lets them cast Shapechange 1/day. The answer is, they'd be utter morons not to take it. Having Wizard level 17 is much better than having an 'extra' ASI.

ASIs are worth less than levels. They're something you get by taking levels. Well, perhaps for a weak class like a monk or barbarian an ASI level is a better-than-average level, but not for a wizard. Wizard levels are great! The Best!

Again, depending on the level the MC is worth it, but its more of a tradeoff and less of a powergamer move. And we're strictly speaking about Cleric/Hexblade 1 dips, the most overpowered level 1 dips in the game by far.

[tiornys]

How many ASIs is casting Shapechange 1/day worth? Well, to answer this question you'd have to ask whether people would take a feat that lets them cast Shapechange 1/day.
Bad comparison. It's not "Shapechange 1/day", it's "the option to cast Shapechange instead of Forcecage (or Maddening Darkness or Demiplane or Antipathy/Sympathy or Simulacrum or Clone or Reverse Gravity or....) 1/day". In other words, the Arti/Wizard or Peace/Wizard still gets the 9th level slot at character level 17, and that's a valuable extra resource that you aren't accounting for. Is Shapechange (or Wish or True Polymorph or Foresight or Meteor Swarm) better than those other spells? Yes. Is it enough better to outweigh multiple levels of benefits from two feats? Probably not, and even if you think it is, it's nowhere near as clear cut as your example of a feat to cast Shapechange 1/day.

re: Moon Druid vs. Shepherd Druid, I'd say Moon is clearly better at 2-4, but Shepherd catches up at 5 with the interactions between its totem and Conjure Animals (and Moon still stuck at CR 1 forms) and then Shepherd pulls ahead for levels 6+ thanks to Mighty Summoner. For my money that makes Shepherd the better pick for this thread.

[strangebloke]

Bad comparison. It's not "Shapechange 1/day", it's "the option to cast Shapechange instead of Forcecage (or Maddening Darkness or Demiplane or Antipathy/Sympathy or Simulacrum or Clone or Reverse Gravity or....) 1/day". In other words, the Arti/Wizard or Peace/Wizard still gets the 9th level slot at character level 17, and that's a valuable extra resource that you aren't accounting for. Is Shapechange (or Wish or True Polymorph or Foresight or Meteor Swarm) better than those other spells? Yes. Is it enough better to outweigh multiple levels of benefits from two feats? Probably not, and even if you think it is, it's nowhere near as clear cut as your example of a feat to cast Shapechange 1/day.

You started this conversation with artificer, but now apparently we're just talking about clerics and no other MC. Artificer 1 and hexblade 1 both set you back a level.

But even just limiting things to cleric, its not even close. There's room for reasonable disagreement on most optimization topics, but not here. At level 17, 9th level spells are more powerful than anything in the game, not by a little, but by a lot. At this point, the only thing that can reign the wizard in is time and the DM. By RAI, without cheese, you can cast true polymorph on a rock every day and create a young silver dragon. Wish in combat can do things like create a simulacrum as a single action, meaning you can create a half-hp duplicate of anything you're fighting with a single action. But that's the least powerful use case. You can also cast simulacrum normally and then use its level 9 spell slot to make a simulacrum of you (who still has an unexpended 9th level spell slot, allowing for infinite chaining.) You can cast foresight the day before combat and have insane bonuses to everything while still having all your slots. You can GATE to any rival that still exists outside of a warded region and gank them with dozens of glyphs and contingencies.

Sure if the DM gives you literally not a single day of downtime after level 17, some of these powerful plays become less feasible. Sure, the DM is probably going to hard ban certain (RAW permissible) things like simulacrum chaining) but I think by definition an ability that breaks the game WIDE open unless the DM bans it outright is....

...well its better than 2 ASIs, that's for damn sure.

At lower levels or at even levels there's room for debate, but at high odd levels? Lol, not really.

[Talionis]

First I will say my vote is a Moon Druid or Shepherd Druid. Druid is a full caster and at level seven the wildshape transformations are still viable. Wildshape also gives you abilities to scout and bypass encounters.

While higher levels of spells known are strong, those spell slots will eventually run out and at some tables that brings you from hero to zero. If you have long adventuring days, short rest and non casters grow in their value. If you are looking at non casters you start to see where many of the non casters do plateau and multi classes make so much more sense. The static abilities they get don’t cost resources and so multiple classes can get you more static abilities. So I think too much value is put on full casting. Tons of people voted for Paladins and they aren’t full casters. In a really gritty campaign you might do really well with starting Rogue into Shadow Monk and bypass as much as you can.

[tiornys]

You started this conversation with artificer, but now apparently we're just talking about clerics and no other MC. Artificer 1 and hexblade 1 both set you back a level.
I mentioned Clerics because you did. You apparently are unaware that Artificer 1 does not in fact set you back a level on spell slot progression. Unlike the other half-casters, you round your Artificer level up when determining how much it contributes to your overall spell slot progression.

As for Wish shenanigans, Wish is just making it easier for the Wizard to break the game in the many ways they already could. True Polymorph is mostly just adding convenience as well (turning rocks to Silver Dragons doesn't get you an army unless you're combining with Planar Binding, and at that point are you really gaining much over binding Yochlols or Glabrezus?).

With that said, yes, a full Wizard will always reach the gamebreak point (whether you consider that Fabricate, Wall of Force, Magic Jar, Simulacrum, Clone, Wish, etc.) one level before the multiclassed Wizard. The multiclassed Wizard is more likely to survive long enough to get there.

[Eldariel]

I mentioned Clerics because you did. You apparently are unaware that Artificer 1 does not in fact set you back a level on spell slot progression. Unlike the other half-casters, you round your Artificer level up when determining how much it contributes to your overall spell slot progression.

As for Wish shenanigans, Wish is just making it easier for the Wizard to break the game in the many ways they already could. True Polymorph is mostly just adding convenience as well (turning rocks to Silver Dragons doesn't get you an army unless you're combining with Planar Binding, and at that point are you really gaining much over binding Yochlols or Glabrezus?).

With that said, yes, a full Wizard will always reach the gamebreak point (whether you consider that Fabricate, Wall of Force, Magic Jar, Simulacrum, Clone, Wish, etc.) one level before the multiclassed Wizard. The multiclassed Wizard is more likely to survive long enough to get there.

Shapechange is honestly just way better than any other spell. 1 hour of "I win all encounters" and "I literally succeed at any non-combat task in 12 seconds". Like Plane Shift without components or Teleport without Error to get anywhere, creature radar with range of miles, eat memories, create objects, destroy objects, eat souls, generate fanatic followers, see the future, you can do almost anything with creature abilities. And you get to use all of them for an hour (or two if you invest in Metamagic Adept: Extend Spell (and like Subtle Spell because why not), which you probably should by this point). And in combat you have any Dragon's breath weapon, immunity to any damage type you'd like, any CC spell, ability to send enemies to other planes, 7 attacks a turn, Legendary Resistance or really, whatever you need to deal with whatever you might encounter (and you have a lot of means to ascertain what you are about to face). Like it's not just better than a single level 7 spell; it's better than 100 level 7 spells.

To put it into perspective, you have 10 rounds per minute. An hour has 600 rounds. It takes one round to shift and another to use an ability in most cases (though some are immediate, passive, or have bonus/reaction activation of course). This means that you can use 300 uses of different top-of-the-line monstrous abilities ideal to the situation you are in during a single casting of Shapechange. Or 600 if you have Extend. Each of those is likely comparable to level 7+ spells: it's really hard to think how a level 7+ spell could let you eat memories or souls or find targets within miles with millimetre precision or whatever, honestly, so it's even better. That's what Shapechange is. It's godmode for hours. And on this level, you can just use your normal Contact Other Plane/Scrying/Teleportation/Planar shifting/etc. powers to expand your portfolio of creatures indefinitely.


As for Wish, it's not just a level 8- spell. It's any level 8- spell without costs or casting time. There are some that really aren't designed for immediate casting. You want a Simulacrum? It doesn't take an hour nor cost 1500. Mirage Arcana can deal damage and doesn't even care if target knows it's an illusion, nor does it cost Concentration. Just cast it, and make all enemies swim in an enclosed lake of acid/lava/holy water/whatever kills them while trapped in adamantine/force/whatever, removing all traps and obstacles on your way and so on. Mirage Arcana is a busted spell with a 10 minute casting time. But it's worlds more busted with an immediate use. Same with other immune-to-everything effects that totally screw over the opposition like Druid Grove or Temple of the Gods. Those are pretty resistant to even dispelling.

And Wish is conveniently something you can Subtle Spell since it has no materials. There's just no comparison between level 9 spells and earliers. Level 8 spells cap out at demigod stuff. Level 9 spells make you a veritable god. Really. They let you reshape reality as you see fit with few restrictions at long times. They're just ridiculous. There's a whole tier of difference between the two: anyone with level 9 spells plays something closer to Calvinball while level 8- spells still restrict you to D&D.


As for your argument that multiclass Wizard is more likely to get there, that's just wrong. Multiclass Wizard needs to survive a whole level longer. At weaker offense. Whenever you need peak power of your current level, a multiclass Wizard is not your pick. See, offense is a part of defense too. You can't just go around taking hits all day, you need to deal with the opposition somehow. Tankiness only buys you time to deal with the enemy. And multiclassing concedes the strongest deal-with-opposition options in exchange for being able to take a bit longer to deal with enemies. The thing is, there are enemies you just need the top level options for. Especially when talking about something like Hypnotic Pattern, Summon Greater Demon, Wall of Force, Contingency, or Forcecage. Those actually enable dealing with things you simply couldn't deal with prior to gaining the ability. Premade adventures are full of times where you really just need the peak power to survive.

To demonstrate this point, go through Lost Mine of Phandelver. The scariest encounters? The first fight with Goblins on level 1 as well as the cavern. The dragon around level 3. And that's about it. Both of those are vastly easier if you have the max level offense available. An Artificer 1 vs. the Goblins is going to be sad. They're hard to reach, hard to spot, etc. A Wizard, meanwhile? Familiar spots them, Sleep deals with them. Sure, you're easier to put down but that doesn't matter if you are better enough at putting the enemies down. Overall winning probability is much higher with high offense low defense than low offense medium defense (level 1 Artificer simply can't reach "high defense"). And "high defense" runs the issue of the enemy just not hitting you making your entire defense worthless entirely making you plain low offense nothing.

Then again, on level 3: when you face Venomfang, there's a huge difference between level 1 and level 2 spells. Level 2 spells let you hit it from multiple angles and at range. Level 1 spells basically mean you have to pray you get to hit it with Hideous Laughter, which only has a 30' range. Suggestion, Phantasmal Force, even Web completely change the math there (you need to CC it to win here, there's just no real way to plain HP race a CR7 Dragon on level 3 since the high damage options simply don't exist yet and even if there were, that would just consume all your resources while CCing it gives you realistic chances of letting e.g. your Moon Druid pal Giant Rocktopus Restrain it for beatdown dealing with it reasonably efficiently).

[Dork_Forge]

Best for 7th level? It's really hard imo to not put a Fighter here:

- Only class to have two ASIs at this point
- Every single level in the progression up to 7th has something meaningful and impactful to the build
- Whilst other classes are budgeting long rest resources in a relative scarcity, the Fighter generally either a wealth of short rest resources or a mix of short and long that applies to a variety of adventuring days.

I don't even really have a specific Fighter to suggest here, any of the notable subclasses would do really well, you could even throw a 1 level dip in there depending on the subclass. The problem with inserting full casters into this role is the lack of total resources and the fragility of them.

[Gignere]

Best for 7th level? It's really hard imo to not put a Fighter here:

- Only class to have two ASIs at this point
- Every single level in the progression up to 7th has something meaningful and impactful to the build
- Whilst other classes are budgeting long rest resources in a relative scarcity, the Fighter generally either a wealth of short rest resources or a mix of short and long that applies to a variety of adventuring days.

I don't even really have a specific Fighter to suggest here, any of the notable subclasses would do really well, you could even throw a 1 level dip in there depending on the subclass. The problem with inserting full casters into this role is the lack of total resources and the fragility of them.

Problem with Fighter as an optimized level 7 is that it only solves DPR problems. Unlike some of the other caster classes, like Druid, that can pretty much dominate in and out of combat and maybe only not do too well in the social pillar, however they are at least equal to if not better than fighters in that pillar as well since wisdom is actually useful in social encounters.

Even when it comes to DPR, fighter unless fully optimized for it falls behind summon beast/conjure animals/wildshape starting at levels 2/3/ and 5. Certainly can’t absorb nearly as much hit points damage as the moon Druid/shepherd at these levels can. Then adding salt to the injury the Druid can heal too.

[Dork_Forge]

Problem with Fighter as an optimized level 7 is that it only solves DPR problems. Unlike some of the other caster classes, like Druid, that can pretty much dominate in and out of combat and maybe only not do too well in the social pillar, however they are at least equal to if not better than fighters in that pillar as well since wisdom is actually useful in social encounters.

Even when it comes to DPR, fighter unless fully optimized for it falls behind summon beast/conjure animals/wildshape starting at levels 2/3/ and 5. Certainly can’t absorb nearly as much hit points damage as the moon Druid/shepherd at these levels can. Then adding salt to the injury the Druid can heal too.

Why is a Fighter 'only solving DPR problems?' Not only is that making very dismissive assumptions about the subclass chosen, it's ignoring that Fighters have the freedom to have whatever mentals they want, feat freedom, and the impact of the race. And spoiler alert: optimizing every single point of damage is just not necessary, pretty much ever. Fighters are not hurting for damage, especially at level 7, pretty much whichever way you build them.

I can see a pattern in this thread of 'clearly the answer is to summon a bunch of animals' which... do people actually play this way? Does this actually, consistently work? Relying on a plethora of squishy, concentration-dependent minions is far from a fool-proof plan.

I'm not really sure why you're also needling the Fighter about healing either, the Druid is spending a spell prepared when the Fighter has a scaling self heal built into the core class.

This is also really turning into Schrodinger's Druid, which is an annoying facet of these discussions. Most Druids aren't tanking damage. Present an actual, single Druid in contention instead of throwing the weight of undecided options at the problem.

[Gignere]

Why is a Fighter 'only solving DPR problems?' Not only is that making very dismissive assumptions about the subclass chosen, it's ignoring that Fighters have the freedom to have whatever mentals they want, feat freedom, and the impact of the race. And spoiler alert: optimizing every single point of damage is just not necessary, pretty much ever. Fighters are not hurting for damage, especially at level 7, pretty much whichever way you build them.

I can see a pattern in this thread of 'clearly the answer is to summon a bunch of animals' which... do people actually play this way? Does this actually, consistently work? Relying on a plethora of squishy, concentration-dependent minions is far from a fool-proof plan.

I'm not really sure why you're also needling the Fighter about healing either, the Druid is spending a spell prepared when the Fighter has a scaling self heal built into the core class.

This is also really turning into Schrodinger's Druid, which is an annoying facet of these discussions. Most Druids aren't tanking damage. Present an actual, single Druid in contention instead of throwing the weight of undecided options at the problem.

It’s not a Shroedinger Druid in actual play this is what a moon Druid did starting at level 2. First off they started with Deinonychus wildshape so this shape can out DPR any possible fighter builds at level 2 and has 26 hps, although only 13 AC.

By level 3 the moon Druid is casting moonbeam, spike growth, summon beasts, etc. In an encounter the Druid learned to wildshape into a Rocktopus so they use longstrider to increase movement and in combat they would cast one of the hazard or summons and use the rocktopus form to restrain the target and move them through the cheese graters.

So at level 3 this Druid not only is topping DPR but also providing at will restrains.

Now we get to level 5, before the GM nerfed conjure animals to be random summons, the moon Druid was pulling out 2 rocktopi and himself turning into one. So he was basically doing 3 greatsword damage that on hit restrained the targets so in most fights half the battle field was pretty much restrained once the Druid and his conjures get to go. These creatures have 52 hps a piece so every fight we had essentially extra 150 hps on the field. After the GM nerfed it to random summons, the Druid relied on cr 1/4 conjures at that point but still shifting into a rocktopus he can usually give advantage to his summons and still dominate the damage.

Even when it was 8 riding horses conjured the summons was still awesome at shaping, blocking the field and even dealing damage.

This doesn’t even get into the pick up healing and goodberry abuse that the Druid was using to keep the party up and topped off between encounters.

[Dork_Forge]

It’s not a Shroedinger Druid in actual play this is what a moon Druid did starting at level 2.

I mean, it literally was as you kept throwing multiple options. I also appreciate you've now chosen a single Druid and provided an anecdote, though I'll point out I've played in a party where the Moon Druid kept going down after repeatedly biting off more than they can chew, but since you provided elaboration I'll address it.

Note: I really need to point out that not all campaigns feature dinosaurs, nevermind expose low-level Druids to them.


First off they started with Deinonychus wildshape so this shape can out DPR any possible fighter builds at level 2 and has 26 hps, although only 13 AC.

Whilst comparing a CR 1 creature to a second level Fighter in damage is a tall order, no it's not out-damaging any possible Fighter build. V. Human (Dual Wielder) using Action Surge to TWF with two longswords is doing the same number or attacks, but with higher accuracy and damage. You might say but that's only one round! Yes, because it's level 2. That level of damage from a single character is a quick route to the encounter being over. Or hey, Bugbear Surprise Attack build will pop off potentially every encounter. This is to illustrate that absolutes are often not true in these 'casters r better than Fighters' talks.

But yes that dinosaur only has a 13 AC, and since it's going to clearly make itself obvious as a mobile threat, will likely be heavily targeted by the encounter's monsters. Of course, we also can't rule out the Druid getting a good smack before they're able to Wild Shape. They of course could do so beforehand, but it's not like being a dinosaur is conducive to communicating or stealthing with the party.


By level 3 the moon Druid is casting moonbeam, spike growth, summon beasts, etc. In an encounter the Druid learned to wildshape into a Rocktopus so they use longstrider to increase movement and in combat they would cast one of the hazard or summons and use the rocktopus form to restrain the target and move them through the cheese graters.

I've seen Moonbeam a lot, sometimes good, sometimes almost a complete waste of resources. Spike Growth can be good, but is so environment shaping that it can neuter the snot out of your own party. I mean... Spike Growth and then... what turn into a dino and wade into your own thorns? Summon Beast is solid, and unless you're eating into the duration and risking your concentration out of combat, it's trading your entire first turn for a single attack roughly equivalent to a longsword with Dueling.

I had to look up Rocktopus, looks like it came out of Out of the Abyss and is a weird sidegrade to the octopus. But since the intention was to use this form for a cheese grater tactic... it has a speed of 20 ft. So you're going to get two squares of damage out of it, assuming it didn't have to move at all to get to the creature.


So at level 3 this Druid not only is topping DPR but also providing at will restrains.

You have not shown it's 'topping DPR' at all, especially not at a level where everyone has a subclass.

And nor is this at-will restraining, you have to be in a very limited form, using a limited resource to access it. And then when you do, yes they're restrained... but it has an AC of 11. So they're still probably going to hit it.If you actually do the cheesegrater thing with it, on top of the low AC, it'll be popping into a Druid again in short order.


Now we get to level 5, before the GM nerfed conjure animals to be random summons, the moon Druid was pulling out 2 rocktopi and himself turning into one. So he was basically doing 3 greatsword damage that on hit restrained the targets so in most fights half the battle field was pretty much restrained once the Druid and his conjures get to go. These creatures have 52 hps a piece so every fight we had essentially extra 150 hps on the field. After the GM nerfed it to random summons, the Druid relied on cr 1/4 conjures at that point but still shifting into a rocktopus he can usually give advantage to his summons and still dominate the damage.

That's not a nerf, that's the intention of the spell. And at 5th that's a +5 to hit vs a +6 from a mildly optimized PC, so you're trading accuracy, spellcasting, communication and AC for this. Oh and what's the Con of that creature? A +1. So low AC concentrating on a spell with a +1 save. This is not a field of roses, there are heavy compromises to what your Druid did, it clearly worked out for them, but it's not just 'be better than everyone else.'


This doesn’t even get into the pick up healing and goodberry abuse that the Druid was using to keep the party up and topped off between encounters.

Pick up healing? So they're in combats hard enough to down PCs, but they aren't in Wildshape using their subclass abilities so they have access to Healing Word? That's an odd mixture of circumstances.

And whilst I'm not a fan of Goodberry in general, I'm struggling to see how this Druid is casting it enough for it to really matter throughout the day, but still having plenty of slots for Healing Word and all the concentration stuff they love?

[Eldariel]

A few things:
1. Every HP Druid loses in Wild Shape is recovered on SR. So it's optimal for Druid to lose both Wild Shape uses worth of HP each SR. Therefore you actively want to be targeted: this way other characters don't lose HP that's harder to recover.

2. If you cast Spike Growth and enemy doesn't approach, you can simply wait while your ranged allies beat them up. Though the fact that you cast Spike Growth means you're still in humanoid form; if your enemy can't affect you, there's no reason to shift. You can always do it as a bonus action. And like if you turn into Octopus-variant, you do have 15' Tentacles which can cover about half of the Growth anyways for what it matters. Or Giant Spider can websling or whatever. Ultimately it doesn't matter unless enemies have good ranged attacks though; they have to either approach or slowly die without doing anything.

3. Yeah, feated Fighter with Action Surge can do comparable damage for one turn (note, the Druid could pick a feat too for e.g. extra damage). There are 3 rounds in your average encounter and 2-3 encounters per short rest. So that's 1/6 to 1/9 turns of doing comparable damage and even there, if the Druid scores a knockdown it's doing more. So...yeah, no, the Fighter is not a competitive damage dealer by this point.

4. If you Wild Shape for most fights and only cast one Concentration spell (and only when needed), you will likely be left with a lot of slots leftover on most days. You can just convert any remaining ones for Goodberries for the next day. And some days (a lot in most campaigns; many travel and city days, etc.) you can store up Goodberries for the next day. That's the beauty of spell slots: depending on situation they can do whatever fits the situation. If you need skills, Guidance or Enhance Ability or similar have you covered; if you're in combat you've got Conjure Animals/Summon Beast/whatever; if you're travelling Goodberries keeps everyone easily fed while also providing healing and such; and you have Mold Earth, ritual spells, etc. for the rest.

[Dork_Forge]

A few things:
1. Every HP Druid loses in Wild Shape is recovered on SR. So it's optimal for Druid to lose both Wild Shape uses worth of HP each SR. Therefore you actively want to be targeted: this way other characters don't lose HP that's harder to recover.

That's only optimal if you're not using Wildshape for scouting or, if using TCOE, summoning a familiar. And even then, being not only targeted but easily hit risks concentration spells and increases the risk of shifting back and losing Druid HP.


2. If you cast Spike Growth and enemy doesn't approach, you can simply wait while your ranged allies beat them up. Though the fact that you cast Spike Growth means you're still in humanoid form; if your enemy can't affect you, there's no reason to shift. You can always do it as a bonus action. And like if you turn into Octopus-variant, you do have 15' Tentacles which can cover about half of the Growth anyways for what it matters. Or Giant Spider can websling or whatever. Ultimately it doesn't matter unless enemies have good ranged attacks though; they have to either approach or slowly die without doing anything.

I think realistically, if a Moon Druid is going to shift they're going to do it on turn 1. Waiting to find out if you're inclined to do it anyway just risks your own HP, so if a Moon Druid is casting Spike Growth, they're likely shifting on the same turn.

Goblins, Kobolds, Bandits, all low CR creatures likely to be encountered in this level range (especially in published modules) with ranged attacks that are equivalent, if not better, than their melee. Even the anecdote that Gignere provided seems to have been from OOtA, which has plenty of Drow throwing not only ranged damage, but poison saves.


3. Yeah, feated Fighter with Action Surge can do comparable damage for one turn (note, the Druid could pick a feat too for e.g. extra damage). There are 3 rounds in your average encounter and 2-3 encounters per short rest. So that's 1/6 to 1/9 turns of doing comparable damage and even there, if the Druid scores a knockdown it's doing more. So...yeah, no, the Fighter is not a competitive damage dealer by this point.

What feat is a Moon Druid taking for additional damage in Wild Shape?

I'm familiar with the guidelines and if you're facing the level of difficulty that would warrant 2-3 encounters per short rest, then the combat the Fighter is surging in is not lasting 3 rounds unless the dice go badly. What's more, that damage from the Druid, particularly the Rocktopus, is going to run into overkill and be 'wasted.' Realistically, swinging any weapon with a decent modifier is going to get the job done in tier 1, I was highlighting that just pointing to Wild Shape as just cranking out more damage than a Fighter was simply not true as an absolute.


4. If you Wild Shape for most fights and only cast one Concentration spell (and only when needed), you will likely be left with a lot of slots leftover on most days. You can just convert any remaining ones for Goodberries for the next day. And some days (a lot in most campaigns; many travel and city days, etc.) you can store up Goodberries for the next day. That's the beauty of spell slots: depending on situation they can do whatever fits the situation. If you need skills, Guidance or Enhance Ability or similar have you covered; if you're in combat you've got Conjure Animals/Summon Beast/whatever; if you're travelling Goodberries keeps everyone easily fed while also providing healing and such; and you have Mold Earth, ritual spells, etc. for the rest.

If you're Wildshaping in most fights you don't get the luxury of casting when needed. You cast upfront or you don't cast unless you lose your shape. The Goodberry rest abuse (assuming the DM goes along with it) only works if you have leftover slots and need that healing within 8 hours of the rest ending. Given that traveling can easily eat that time, nevermind exploration and social situations, you can't just write off healing on 'free' slots.

And at this level range, the Druid is just not going to have the slots to cast regularly and still do those things. At 3rd level Moonbeam, Spike Growth etc. is being thrown around. There's two slots for 6-8 encounters. Pointing to that stuff is the same as when I pointed to the surging Fighter, they can do it, but it's not what they're doing most of the time. Worse, being a Moon Druid restricts your choices and encourages casting early.



General caster vs Fighter spiel:

-A Fighter has more hitpoints, will likely have a higher AC, and greater freedom in stat allocation. This is a deficit the caster, in this case a Moon Druid, has to overcome with casting and features to achieve parity, before Fighter features are even considered.

- Between lower AC, bigger target, and Second Wind, I'm not convinced it's as really that big a hit point difference between a Moon Druid and a Fighter.

- A Moon Druid is still more dependent on resources in a way that the baseline Fighter isn't. Using Wildshape for scouting or infiltration is a good use, but that reduces the probability of being in Wild Shape for every fight. Same with slots and having a long rest delayed or disrupted

- Losing concentration is a thing that often gets neglected in these discussions, one of the mentioned shapes has a +1 Con. That can mean using more spell slots on the same thing, or just not getting the benefit of what you want.

- Spike Growth and Moon Beam can be big inconveniences and hazards to your own party as well.

- Losing hit points to environmental hazards, traps, or just by losing initiative all happen and get at the Druid's real HP not the Wildshaped HP.

Moon Druid is a good PC option, but it's not just blanketly better and has many trade offs.

[Gignere]

And whilst I'm not a fan of Goodberry in general, I'm struggling to see how this Druid is casting it enough for it to really matter throughout the day, but still having plenty of slots for Healing Word and all the concentration stuff they love?

Any time when we were traveling for more than a day, and maybe it was only the module that had this kind of travel downtime, the Druid can convert all of their spell slots into good berries and that’s a whole lotta of healing that is controlled on a 1 hp per berry.

We went from point A to point B and when no random encounters happened boom we got like 60 - 80 points of healing everytime. This got worst as the Druid leveled up.

Yeah cheese grater tactics involved using the Rocktopus 15 feet reach to restrain enemies in the spiked growth than moving them back and forth in the spiked growth. It was a ton of automatic damage that was just pasted on and it didn’t even take into account enemies that had to walk through the spike growth to get to the party.

Like I said when the Druid could pick the summons in conjure animal which is not an unusual way of running it. He was shutting down almost every combat by round 2. It got so insane the DM created a whole random table for the Druid to roll off to get summons. Even then the Druid was still making encounters ezmode using conjure animals. Literally 5x deadly encounters to just threaten the party.

Edit: Goodberries lasts 24 hours

[Rukelnikov]

Moon Druid is a good PC option, but it's not just blanketly better and has many trade offs.

In general or in the discussed levels?

2-4 is broken

[Gignere]

In general or in the discussed levels?

2-4 is broken

It’s generally amazing at 5-7 all because of conjure animals. That spell is totally broken.

Edit: as much as I am a wizard is the most powerful class but in tier 1 and tier 2 the Druid totally dominates particularly the moon and shepherd circles. Wizards eventually catches up around late t2 and t3 then totally goes to the moon in t4. So optimized class at level 7 really can’t include wizards, because all their broken spells and combos comes later.

[Rukelnikov]

It’s generally amazing at 5-7 all because of conjure animals. That spell is totally broken.

Edit: as much as I am a wizard is the most powerful class but in tier 1 and tier 2 the Druid totally dominates particularly the moon and shepherd circles. Wizards eventually catches up around late t2 and t3 then totally goes to the moon in t4. So optimized class at level 7 really can’t include wizards, because all their broken spells and combos comes later.

I don't subscribe to CA greatness because RAW its literally as powerful as the DM wants it to be.

[Gignere]

I don't subscribe to CA greatness because RAW its literally as powerful as the DM wants it to be.

Even random summons CA is amazing, I’ve played in tables where the summon was randomized and it was still bar none one of the most effective spells in the game. Just using it as damage sponges and as a pseudo wall spell that happens to also do damage makes it one of the if not most effective 3rd level spells. If you are going RAW conjure woodland beings which comes in at level 7 is totally busted. Which is the spell most commonly banned spell in nearly every table I played at.

[Rukelnikov]

Even random summons CA is amazing, I’ve played in tables where the summon was randomized and it was still bar none one of the most effective spells in the game. Just using it as damage sponges and as a pseudo wall spell that happens to also do damage makes it one of the if not most effective 3rd level spells. If you are going RAW conjure woodland beings which comes in at level 7 is totally busted. Which is the spell most commonly banned spell in nearly every table I played at.

But RAW is not random, its you pick how many and whats the highest CR, DM pick what comes, odds are the pell loses effectiveness everytime its cast, until its in line with other same level spells.

[Dork_Forge]

Any time when we were traveling for more than a day, and maybe it was only the module that had this kind of travel downtime, the Druid can convert all of their spell slots into good berries and that’s a whole lotta of healing that is controlled on a 1 hp per berry.

We went from point A to point B and when no random encounters happened boom we got like 60 - 80 points of healing everytime. This got worst as the Druid leveled up.

Regularly having entire days of no combat spread throughout adventures I would think isn't really common, but clearly can happen.


Yeah cheese grater tactics involved using the Rocktopus 15 feet reach to restrain enemies in the spiked growth than moving them back and forth in the spiked growth. It was a ton of automatic damage that was just pasted on and it didn’t even take into account enemies that had to walk through the spike growth to get to the party.

Glad this worked out for your Druid, I just don't see that being a copy and paste strategy against intelligent creatures for long at any tables I've ever played at or run.



Like I said when the Druid could pick the summons in conjure animal which is not an unusual way of running it. He was shutting down almost every combat by round 2. It got so insane the DM created a whole random table for the Druid to roll off to get summons. Even then the Druid was still making encounters ezmode using conjure animals. Literally 5x deadly encounters to just threaten the party.

I mean, it's also common to let people drink potions as a bonus action, which greatly increases their potency, that also doesn't have bearing on the RAW/RAI power of something.

Sorry I just can't fathom Conjure Animals being EZ mode consistently. Ranged attacks, flying enemies, AOEs, resistance/immunity to non magical BPS, losing concentration, Dispel Magic... There are just so many things that really mitigate it without needing to crank the overall difficulty that high. Again, the Druid in your party had a lot of success with it, but that consistent success says more about the table than the game I think.

I mean, it seems like you played OOtA? The Druid losing a save against Drow poison would be both effective and resource intensive against the Druid, and given a Rocktupus' Con, fairly likely to work.


Edit: Goodberries lasts 24 hours

That's my bad going off memory, but I still don't think stacking is going to be a big factor at a lot of tables at early levels.


In general or in the discussed levels?

2-4 is broken

Both, I've seen and played alongside Moon Druids that did really well and some that got swamped and kept losing their shape. I also think it comes with a false sense of invulnerability that some players don't handle well.


I don't subscribe to CA greatness because RAW its literally as powerful as the DM wants it to be.

I agree with this, the Conjure spells are really DM discretion and so incredibly swingy. I might be biased because I don't just ignore concentrating casters like some tables seem to.

[Gignere]

Sorry I just can't fathom Conjure Animals being EZ mode consistently. Ranged attacks, flying enemies, AOEs, resistance/immunity to non magical BPS, losing concentration, Dispel Magic... There are just so many things that really mitigate it without needing to crank the overall difficulty that high. Again, the Druid in your party had a lot of success with it, but that consistent success says more about the table than the game I think.

I mean, it seems like you played OOtA? The Druid losing a save against Drow poison would be both effective and resource intensive against the Druid, and given a Rocktupus' Con, fairly likely to work.



That's my bad going off memory, but I still don't think stacking is going to be a big factor at a lot of tables at early levels.



Both, I've seen and played alongside Moon Druids that did really well and some that got swamped and kept losing their shape. I also think it comes with a false sense of invulnerability that some players don't handle well.



I agree with this, the Conjure spells are really DM discretion and so incredibly swingy. I might be biased because I don't just ignore concentrating casters like some tables seem to.

Remember this is t1 and t2 we’re talking about there is hardly any AoE involved and the ones that the enemies had like cloudkill and the like was dispelled asap by you guessed it the Druid.

Ranged damage is not a solution to conjure animals in t1 and t2, the range options for enemies are generally a massive downgrade to their melee, with many without even a range option.

With the specific module we were fighting Drows with hand cross bows yeah with an effective range of 30 feet not hard to position the conjure animals to block the drows more than 30 feet from any party member, so they now had a choice shoot with disadvantage and through cover (nearly all the cr 1/4 animals are large) or target the animals in front of them and waste their actions while the rest of the party was focus firing on the enemies not blocked / isolated by the conjure animals.

[Rukelnikov]

Remember this is t1 and t2 we’re talking about there is hardly any AoE involved and the ones that the enemies had like cloudkill and the like was dispelled asap by you guessed it the Druid.

Ranged damage is not a solution to conjure animals in t1 and t2, the range options for enemies are generally a massive downgrade to their melee, with many without even a range option.

With the specific module we were fighting Drows with hand cross bows yeah with an effective range of 30 feet not hard to position the conjure animals to block the drows more than 30 feet from any party member, so they now had a choice shoot with disadvantage and through cover (nearly all the cr 1/4 animals are large) or target the animals in front of them and waste their actions while the rest of the party was focus firing on the enemies not blocked / isolated by the conjure animals.

Conjure Animals text is the solution to Conjure Animals, after it blows a couple encounters then the DM just start picking things that make it a reasonable spell and not broken. It's literally in the DM hands what animals will show up.

[Gignere]

Conjure Animals text is the solution to Conjure Animals, after it blows a couple encounters then the DM just start picking things that make it a reasonable spell and not broken. It's literally in the DM hands what animals will show up.

Not really the player picks the cr, we had an encounter where the player got 8 riding horses and another encounter 8 giant riding lizards it was still super effective. These are about as weak as conjure animals you are going to get. I mean it’s nowhere near as broken as picking the specific animals to show up but still an adjustable wall with 100+ hps and 8 extra actions. Just using one of them to shove prone a target before getting advantage on the other attacks was pretty damn amazing.

[strangebloke]

Not really the player picks the cr, we had an encounter where the player got 8 riding horses and another encounter 8 giant riding lizards it was still super effective. These are about as weak as conjure animals you are going to get. I mean it’s nowhere near as broken as picking the specific animals to show up but still an adjustable wall with 100+ hps and 8 extra actions. Just using one of them to shove prone a target before getting advantage on the other attacks was pretty damn amazing.

"Ah but the options for CR only specify an upper limit, not a lower one. So the although you cast a third level spell, all that appears are 8 seahorses. HAHAHAHAhahahaha!"
"....Okay, I cast again with the higher CR option?"
"Lol, fewer beasts but the CR limit is only an upper limit, not a lower limit. So you still just get seahorses! Fewer of them this time though!"
"This is stupid!"
"But its RAW my player. That means you can't be upset!!! Haha! I am a genius, and my rules lawyering negates your anger!!"
...
...
...
...
Look, the ruling that Rulekinov cites is in accordance with RAW, but if you're going to play like this, simply ban the spell instead and save yourself the trouble. And if you don't ban it, and don't run with this completely silly version of RAW, then the spell is simply overpowered and single handedly makes the druid one of the best classes in the game from levels 5-9.

[Gignere]

"Ah but the options for CR only specify an upper limit, not a lower one. So the although you cast a third level spell, all that appears are 8 seahorses. HAHAHAHAhahahaha!"
"....Okay, I cast again with the higher CR option?"
"Lol, fewer beasts but the CR limit is only an upper limit, not a lower limit. So you still just get seahorses! Fewer of them this time though!"
"This is stupid!"
"But its RAW my player. That means you can't be upset!!! Haha! I am a genius, and my rules lawyering negates your anger!!"
...
...
...
...
Look, the ruling that Rulekinov cites is in accordance with RAW, but if you're going to play like this, simply ban the spell instead and save yourself the trouble. And if you don't ban it, and don't run with this completely silly version of RAW, then the spell is simply overpowered and single handedly makes the druid one of the best classes in the game from levels 5-9.

Technically only 5-6, because starting at 7 they can use the even more broken conjure woodland beings.

[diplomancer]

"Ah but the options for CR only specify an upper limit, not a lower one. So the although you cast a third level spell, all that appears are 8 seahorses. HAHAHAHAhahahaha!"
"....Okay, I cast again with the higher CR option?"
"Lol, fewer beasts but the CR limit is only an upper limit, not a lower limit. So you still just get seahorses! Fewer of them this time though!"
"This is stupid!"
"But its RAW my player. That means you can't be upset!!! Haha! I am a genius, and my rules lawyering negates your anger!!"
...
...
...
...
Look, the ruling that Rulekinov cites is in accordance with RAW, but if you're going to play like this, simply ban the spell instead and save yourself the trouble. And if you don't ban it, and don't run with this completely silly version of RAW, then the spell is simply overpowered and single handedly makes the druid one of the best classes in the game from levels 5-9.

There's another reasonable RAW way to nerf the spell that, in my experience at least, few DMs use. The conjured animals do what you tell them to, but you have to actually give them orders, and within a 6-second time frame at most. Too many DMs simply let players run the animals, and to do it individually and optimally, in a way that would be, in many situations, impossible from a short, simple, order.

[Rukelnikov]

"Ah but the options for CR only specify an upper limit, not a lower one. So the although you cast a third level spell, all that appears are 8 seahorses. HAHAHAHAhahahaha!"
"....Okay, I cast again with the higher CR option?"
"Lol, fewer beasts but the CR limit is only an upper limit, not a lower limit. So you still just get seahorses! Fewer of them this time though!"
"This is stupid!"
"But its RAW my player. That means you can't be upset!!! Haha! I am a genius, and my rules lawyering negates your anger!!"
...
...
...
...
Look, the ruling that Rulekinov cites is in accordance with RAW, but if you're going to play like this, simply ban the spell instead and save yourself the trouble. And if you don't ban it, and don't run with this completely silly version of RAW, then the spell is simply overpowered and single handedly makes the druid one of the best classes in the game from levels 5-9.

I don't understand how choosing animals that make it in line power wise with the expended slot equals soft banning a spell


Technically only 5-6, because starting at 7 they can use the even more broken conjure woodland beings.

That spell has the same built in limitation, it's as powerful as the DM wants each cast to be

[strangebloke]

I don't understand how choosing animals that make it in line power wise with the expended slot equals soft banning a spell

That spell has the same built in limitation, it's as powerful as the DM wants each cast to be

Its a soft ban because nobody wants to be so completely at the mercy of the DM. When I cast Fireball, I don't want the DM to decide how much damage is 'in line' with a 3rd level spell. I want it to do something clear and useful!

So if you think that 8 beasts is overpowered, nerf it to 4 beasts, or lower the CR it can summon. That's fine, nobody can complain. Do not just catch someone mid spell and be like "ACktually the RAW says that-"

[Dork_Forge]

Remember this is t1 and t2 we’re talking about there is hardly any AoE involved and the ones that the enemies had like cloudkill and the like was dispelled asap by you guessed it the Druid.

What are you talking about? There's zero reason to not have AOE in tiers 1 and 2, heck in Descent into Avernus I got Fireballed at like level 2.


Ranged damage is not a solution to conjure animals in t1 and t2, the range options for enemies are generally a massive downgrade to their melee, with many without even a range option.

Again... what? Looking at common low CR you might encounter in different adventures that have ranged options:

Goblins and kobolds - literally the same as their melee attack

Bandits - Better than their melee attacks

Drow - The same damage but applies their sleep poison

Seeing as any old damage procs a DC 10 Con save for concentration, and the beasts you yourself have been mentioning have terrible Con saves.


With the specific module we were fighting Drows with hand cross bows yeah with an effective range of 30 feet not hard to position the conjure animals to block the drows more than 30 feet from any party member, so they now had a choice shoot with disadvantage and through cover (nearly all the cr 1/4 animals are large) or target the animals in front of them and waste their actions while the rest of the party was focus firing on the enemies not blocked / isolated by the conjure animals.

And none of those Drow could possible use their racial Faerie Fire to cancel out the disadvantage, right? Or Darkness to mess up the party's effectiveness?

And if the Drow are suffering from cover because of the creatures, then so should the party...

It feels like you're presenting a fistful of low CR creatures as an impenetrable one way wall which... they really aren't, if a group of Drow were shut down like that then that's really on the DM.

[Rukelnikov]

Its a soft ban because nobody wants to be so completely at the mercy of the DM. When I cast Fireball, I don't want the DM to decide how much damage is 'in line' with a 3rd level spell. I want it to do something clear and useful!

So if you think that 8 beasts is overpowered, nerf it to 4 beasts, or lower the CR it can summon. That's fine, nobody can complain. Do not just catch someone mid spell and be like "ACktually the RAW says that-"

It's not an "actually" moment, there's no fine print, no obscure rule or anything, it's just doing what the spell says it does, which is why ultimately is not an op spell, just an extremely unreliable one.

[strangebloke]

It's not an "actually" moment, there's no fine print, no obscure rule or anything, it's just doing what the spell says it does, which is why ultimately is not an op spell, just an extremely unreliable one.

"The GM chooses the beasts" is not in the spell. There's a positive statement that the player chooses one of the CR/quantity categories, and the spell says that 'the DM has the stats for the beasts' but there's no statement about who picks the beasts. All we really have is a JC tweet that says that the player does not get to make any decisions beyond that, but critically that's not in the spell description. If it were, the question wouldn't be asked.

It's not even one of the intuitive readings either. When you get to make a tradeoff between quantity and CR, I don't know that anyone would assume that the DM is allowed to just rugpull them with a lower CR beast anyway. I remember when this edition came out and everyone read it the other way until JC replied with this 'clarification' (which I seriously doubt was his original intent.)

Contrast this with other spells that are designed to have the DM make decisions for you, like Wish



You might be able to achieve something beyond The Scope of the above examples. State your wish to the DM as precisely as possible. The DM has great latitude in ruling what occurs in such an instance, the greater the wish, the greater the likelihood that something goes wrong. This spell might simply fail, the Effect you desire might only be partly achieved, or you might suffer some unforeseen consequence as a result of how you worded the wish. For example, wishing that a villain were dead might propel you forward in time to a period when that villain is no longer alive, effectively removing you from the game. Similarly, wishing for a legendary magic item or artifact might instantly transport you to the presence of the item's current owner.

The DM is explicitly referenced, and potential consequences are outlined. This is a clear case of the DM being given oversight over a spell's most powerful functions. This clarity is not present in Conjure Animals. If it were, there would be no need for the JC tweet. Its not clear. It'd be great if it were clear, but it is not.

And regardless, if you try to go "ITS CLEAR AND OBVIOUS" mid session your player's going to be angry. You can't approach players like forum arguments.

[Rukelnikov]

"The GM chooses the beasts" is not in the spell. There's a positive statement that the player chooses one of the CR/quantity categories, and the spell says that 'the DM has the stats for the beasts' but there's no statement about who picks the beasts. All we really have is a JC tweet that says that the player does not get to make any decisions beyond that, but critically that's not in the spell description. If it were, the question wouldn't be asked.

Spells tell you what they do, Conjure Animals says:


You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range. Choose one of the following options for what appears:

One beast of challenge rating 2 or lower
Two beasts of challenge rating 1 or lower
Four beasts of challenge rating 1/2 or lower
Eight beasts of challenge rating 1/4 or lower

Each beast is also considered fey, and it disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends.

The casters choice ends at the ammount of creatures of each type, the option isn't "Choose eight beasts of CR 1/4" or "Eight beasts of CR 1/4 that you choose", that reading is someone adding text that isn't there.


It's not even one of the intuitive readings either. When you get to make a tradeoff between quantity and CR, I don't know that anyone would assume that the DM is allowed to just rugpull them with a lower CR beast anyway. I remember when this edition came out and everyone read it the other way until JC replied with this 'clarification' (which I seriously doubt was his original intent.)

Contrast this with other spells that are designed to have the DM make decisions for you, like Wish

The DM is explicitly referenced, and potential consequences are outlined. This is a clear case of the DM being given oversight over a spell's most powerful functions. This clarity is not present in Conjure Animals. If it were, there would be no need for the JC tweet. Its not clear. It'd be great if it were clear, but it is not.


Contrast this with Find Familiar or Find Steed:


You gain the service of a familiar, a spirit that takes an animal form you choose: bat, cat, crab, frog (toad), hawk, lizard, octopus, owl, poisonous snake, fish (quipper), rat, raven, sea horse, spider, or weasel.

You summon a spirit that assumes the form of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed, creating a long-lasting bond with it. Appearing in an unoccupied space within range, the steed takes on a form that you choose: a warhorse, a pony, a camel, an elk, or a mastiff. (Your DM might allow other animals to be summoned as steeds.)



And regardless, if you try to go "ITS CLEAR AND OBVIOUS" mid session your player's going to be angry. You can't approach players like forum arguments.

Players getting angry because they are houseruling a spell in a way that makes it broken and the DM trying to reasonably run it RAW is not a worry of mine.

[Gignere]

Spells tell you what they do, Conjure Animals says:



The casters choice ends at the ammount of creatures of each type, the option isn't "Choose eight beasts of CR 1/4" or "Eight beasts of CR 1/4 that you choose", that reading is someone adding text that isn't there.




Contrast this with Find Familiar or Find Steed:







Players getting angry because they are houseruling a spell in a way that makes it broken and the DM trying to reasonably run it RAW is not a worry of mine.

So how will you run it, and make it a balanced level 3 spell? Anyhow every DM I played with and allowed conjure animals either allowed the player to pick the animal or allowed the player to pick the CR and rolled based on the CR.

Even a reasonable reading of the spell would allow the player to pick the CR, no?

[Rukelnikov]

So how will you run it, and make it a balanced level 3 spell? Anyhow every DM I played with and allowed conjure animals either allowed the player to pick the animal or allowed the player to pick the CR and rolled based on the CR.

Even a reasonable reading of the spell would allow the player to pick the CR, no?

Of course, quantity of creatures/Max CR is what the spell says the caster can choose.

As to how would I run it, I already said, I'd probably have it be extremely powerful the first times and every now and then if its a hard fight, and the rest of the time, being in line with a 3rd level spell. But it doesn't matter how I'd run it, because the thing is, that every DM will run it differently. Sure, with some DMs it might be broken, with other DMs it might be useless, and with some will be somewhere in the middle. The point is its unreliable without extra knowledge.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Based on almost half of this thread being donated to soft nerfing their boosted basically broken spell out of the box I'm calling it. The winner is Shepherd. Nothing else here needs to be nerfed just to keep it from pulling away from the others.

[Rukelnikov]

Based on almost half of this thread being donated to soft nerfing their boosted basically broken spell out of the box I'm calling it. The winner is Shepherd. Nothing else here needs to be nerfed just to keep it from pulling away from the others.

The argument actually was that Moon is most powerful because they dominate 2-4 and have CA

[Witty Username]

I mean, it's also common to let people drink potions as a bonus action, which greatly increases their potency, that also doesn't have bearing on the RAW/RAI power of something.

Conjure animals a very different problem than that. For one it is RAW that the player can pick the number and CR of the creatures affected, and leting the player pick the creatures is as fair as any other method the GM uses to determine the creatures aquired.
(My tables informal rules is the player picks 3-4 creatures prior to game and seeks DM approval prior to the start of play, that way we aren't digging for stat blocks every random combat).

Its not like the ability to drink potions are defined as DM discretion on whether it takes an action, bonus action, reaction, or free object interaction.

[DruidAlanon]

It feels like you're presenting a fistful of low CR creatures as an impenetrable one way wall which... they really aren't, if a group of Drow were shut down like that then that's really on the DM.

My reading of this discussion so far is that we haven't agreed on what are the rules when comparing the effectiveness of the Moon Druid to, say, any fighter. So far, I feel you tend to move the goalposts and really on whataboutism to make a point. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is how I've read so far this discussion. To be sure, your points are valid. And personally I don't think the fighter is a bad class early on. On the contrary, he's quite good. However, as long as the rules of comparison are not clear, we can provide counterexamples all day and move in circles.

Focusing on level 2, just for comparison. Druid has the option to turn into a brown bear twice per short rest. That's extra 64HP on top of his 17HP, 40ft speed, two +6 attacks, and when this is done, he's still a full caster.

Against AC 15, Druid as a brown bear hits for 11 expected dmg /round on average. In the meantime, he may decide to concentrate on entangle, or similar. Or cast ice knife before he shifts or whatever is optimal for the particular encounter. Then he heals everyone with goodberries that were casted yesterday. Doing this in a fight of say 4 rounds, that's 44 dmg in an encounter, without having to cast a single spell, and while providing a meatshield of 64hp. If the enemy beats both wildshapes, then he can concentrate on a spell and still be more than relevant with thorn whip. All these at level 2.

What does a fighter do in the meantime with his +-20HP and one action surge, in the same encounter?

"Yes, but what about scouting and consumed wildshapes?". Well, what about it? Is fighter a better scout? If the Druid spent a wildshape to scout, then he spent his day being useful and awesome while the fighter did nothing for the party. Now, he has only one extra wildshape for 32HP, but has already done something useful. Moreover, if the scouiting was sucessful and he spotted the enemies without being spotted himself, he can short rest and prepare of the encounter in order to regain his wildshape.

"What about kobolds, drows and goblins?" The Druid can turn into a giant spider to climb the cave, has access to web as a ranged attack and a chance to restrain. Again, what does a fighter do in the same encounter?

Level 4: access to giant octopus (52HP, reach, grapple, restrain) or Giant toad. And all the good spells from the druid list.


What I am trying to say is, if we agree on the encounter, we will come up with one optimal strategy per class. Then we can compare the classes. Players first see the enemy then decide what to do. A druid won't randomly cast spike growth and turn into a giant bear in a cave full of archers for the same reason a fighter won't attack a wiretiger if he doesn't already have a magic weapon. Or a wizard won't cast fireball to a hell hound. You get the point.

[Unoriginal]

Its a soft ban because nobody wants to be so completely at the mercy of the DM.

Every single person who plays is just as much at the mercy of the DM.

[Gignere]

Of course, quantity of creatures/Max CR is what the spell says the caster can choose.

As to how would I run it, I already said, I'd probably have it be extremely powerful the first times and every now and then if its a hard fight, and the rest of the time, being in line with a 3rd level spell. But it doesn't matter how I'd run it, because the thing is, that every DM will run it differently. Sure, with some DMs it might be broken, with other DMs it might be useless, and with some will be somewhere in the middle. The point is its unreliable without extra knowledge.

Unless the DM pulls creatures below CR 1/4, it doesn’t matter what shows up the 8 CR 1/4 creatures will be super effective in many many encounters. Summoning creatures below cr 1/4 is a ruling that I have never seen ruled before in all of the tables I played at, although I’ve seen it either banned or the DM asks the player to only at most summon 2 creatures per combat so making it default to the higher CR summons, but granting full flexibility to the player to choose the creatures.

[Amnestic]

But RAW is not random, its you pick how many and whats the highest CR, DM pick what comes, odds are the pell loses effectiveness everytime its cast, until its in line with other same level spells.

Saying the DM decides what is summoned is RAW is just incorrect. Here's the full text of the spell:


You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range. Choose one of the following options for what appears:


One beast of challenge rating 2 or lower
Two beasts of challenge rating 1 or lower
Four beasts of challenge rating 1/2 or lower
Eight beasts of challenge rating 1/4 or lower


Each beast is also considered fey, and it disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends.

The summoned creatures are friendly to you and your companions. Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group, which has its own turns. They obey any verbal commands that you issue to them (no action required by you). If you don't issue any commands to them, they defend themselves from hostile creatures, but otherwise take no actions.

The GM has the creatures' statistics.


-D&DBeyond

While it's certainly a reading that the DM chooses what type of beasts, it's definitely readable that the player chooses what gets summoned and in what combination. The only mention of the DM's involvement is at the end when it mentions they have the statistics.

Why are you saying that the caster's decision ends when they choose what CR of beasts? Hypothetically: I choose eight wolves. That satisfies the choice of "eight beasts of CR 1/4 or lower". That is an entirely RAW reading of it.

Now if you want to argue RAI, then we can refer to Sage Advice Compendium, which says this:


When you cast a spell like conjure woodland beings, does the spellcaster or the DM choose the creatures that are conjured?

A number of spells in the game let you summon creatures. Conjure animals, conjure celestial, conjure minor elementals, and conjure woodland beings are just a few examples.

Some spells of this sort specify that the spellcaster chooses the creature conjured. For example, find familiar gives the caster a list of animals to choose from. Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from among several broad options. For example, conjure minor elementals offers four options. Here are the first two:
• One elemental of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two elementals of challenge rating 1 or lower
The design intent for options like these is that the spellcaster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what
creatures appear that fit the chosen option. For example, if you pick the second option, the DM chooses the two elementals that have a challenge rating of 1 or lower. A spellcaster can certainly express a preference for what creatures shows up, but it’s up to the DM to determine if they do. The DM will often choose creatures that are appropriate for the campaign and that will be fun to introduce in a scene.

https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf

I've thrown in a few oh my own emphasis for some pertinent sections but that's the quote in full.

So we know the RAW, and now we know the RAI. Do you believe that summoning eight seahorses when a player casts Conjure Animals is "fun"? I'm not sure your player would agree, especially if they express a preference for "flying creature", for example.

It's a poorly written spell, from an era where they clearly underestimated the power of minionmancy, but if you want to nerf it you should just restrict it to 1 or 2 creatures summoned and let the player pick the animal type they want.

[strangebloke]

Of course, quantity of creatures/Max CR is what the spell says the caster can choose.

As to how would I run it, I already said, I'd probably have it be extremely powerful the first times and every now and then if its a hard fight, and the rest of the time, being in line with a 3rd level spell. But it doesn't matter how I'd run it, because the thing is, that every DM will run it differently. Sure, with some DMs it might be broken, with other DMs it might be useless, and with some will be somewhere in the middle. The point is its unreliable without extra knowledge.
If you choose the beasts, its the most busted thing at this level.

If the DM randomly chooses a creature of the appropriate CR, its... actually still the most busted thing at this level.

The only way the spell is 'balanced' is if the DM goes with the sage advice RAI and then intentionally chooses near useless animals. Which makes it the worst spell in the game for reasons beyond mechanics.

Also, given that the fluff of the spell is "friendly fey spirits take on animal shapes to aid you" the idea that they're intentionally choosing useless or near-useless creatures

Based on almost half of this thread being donated to soft nerfing their boosted basically broken spell out of the box I'm calling it. The winner is Shepherd. Nothing else here needs to be nerfed just to keep it from pulling away from the others.
Yep, exactly, though I'd pick moon, personally. And FWIW druid's power isn't just contingent on CA. Spike Growth, heat metal, and PWT are some of the strongest second level spells. Druid's 3rd level spell options are less amazing but

Every single person who plays is just as much at the mercy of the DM.
Sure! But think about how silly the "DM chooses whatever" version of CA is in practice.

The DM has made an encounter. The DM has decided which enemies will be there and how hard the encounter will be. Then the druid casts CA and then the DM chooses a bunch of beast allies for the party, however strong they feel is appropriate, and then they controls the team of beasts to fight the team of monsters they also control.

The druid, having already used a big slot and concentration, then spends the game cantripping while the DM rolls for a combat between 14 creatures. Does the druid feel like an epic hero here, watching the DM roll a million dice? I think its telling that in spite of how powerful druids are, they're incredibly unpopular.

Players want to have control over what's happening at the table. I think DMs should respect that. So I think with something like CA, using the RAI is the worst thing you can do, outside of allowing it in all its overpowered glory. Just ban it outright or change up the summoning options the conjure/animate spells. I just give players total control and make it 4 CR 1/4s, 3 CR 1/2s, 2 CR 1s or 1 CR 2. They pick the beast, they control the beast, but the spell is overall a good deal more balanced.

The controlled summoning makes it stronger in some ways (summmon flying mounts for the party) while making it more tolerable from a pure DPR perspective.

[Eldariel]

If you're Wildshaping in most fights you don't get the luxury of casting when needed. You cast upfront or you don't cast unless you lose your shape. The Goodberry rest abuse (assuming the DM goes along with it) only works if you have leftover slots and need that healing within 8 hours of the rest ending. Given that traveling can easily eat that time, nevermind exploration and social situations, you can't just write off healing on 'free' slots.

And at this level range, the Druid is just not going to have the slots to cast regularly and still do those things. At 3rd level Moonbeam, Spike Growth etc. is being thrown around. There's two slots for 6-8 encounters. Pointing to that stuff is the same as when I pointed to the surging Fighter, they can do it, but it's not what they're doing most of the time. Worse, being a Moon Druid restricts your choices and encourages casting early.

You generally travel in humanoid form. You'll cast round 1 and shift if needed. But if enemy can't harm you, you don't need to shift; why would you?


General caster vs Fighter spiel:

-A Fighter has more hitpoints, will likely have a higher AC, and greater freedom in stat allocation. This is a deficit the caster, in this case a Moon Druid, has to overcome with casting and features to achieve parity, before Fighter features are even considered.

Fighter wants Wis anyways; Wis is by far the most common debilitating save and Fighter doesn't even have proficiency. Actually, this goes around the other way: Moon Druid only needs Wis (already a great stat) and some Con maybe; Fighter meanwhile needs Str, Con, and Wis to come even close and would be well-advised to have some Dex too (for initiative, ranged attacks, Dex-saves, etc.). Moon Druid gets Str, Dex and Con from Wild Shape in most combat scenarios so he needs fewer stats. And of course, this also means Fighter has way fewer HP overall due to Wild Shape. Also, Fighter vs. Caster HP difference is 1/Level; that's peanuts.


- Between lower AC, bigger target, and Second Wind, I'm not convinced it's as really that big a hit point difference between a Moon Druid and a Fighter.

How much does Second Wind heal? 1d10+Level/SR, average 10 HP on level 5. How much does Wild Shape grant? 104 per short rest on level 2 if we're going durability first. You'd need like 9 short rests for Fighter while Moon Druid gets none to catch up to Moon Druid on level 5 (remember, the difference in class HP is 5 + 5 from hit dice). Lower AC is...eh, it matters but it doesn't even double the incoming damage in most cases. The Druid just has such a vast HP pool that they don't really care about enemies attacking them since their HP is fully disposable. Also, "Bigger target" is not a thing in this game.


- A Moon Druid is still more dependent on resources in a way that the baseline Fighter isn't. Using Wildshape for scouting or infiltration is a good use, but that reduces the probability of being in Wild Shape for every fight. Same with slots and having a long rest delayed or disrupted

True, Moon Druid can do other things with their resources. But given that Fighter just can't do those things, period, that just means Moon Druid can be a Super Fighter OR do other cool stuff too. Meaning it's just even more on top of what a Fighter offers.


- Losing concentration is a thing that often gets neglected in these discussions, one of the mentioned shapes has a +1 Con. That can mean using more spell slots on the same thing, or just not getting the benefit of what you want.

If you have Res: Con you use your base form's Con modifier in Wild Shape. It's explicitly spelled out in the ability. So form Con bonus doesn't really matter unless you want it to.


- Spike Growth and Moon Beam can be big inconveniences and hazards to your own party as well.

You don't cast them if that were the case. You cast them when a melee enemy wants to get to you. And Moon Beam can be moved as an action so if it's really an inconvenience you just put it where it's not.


- Losing hit points to environmental hazards, traps, or just by losing initiative all happen and get at the Druid's real HP not the Wildshaped HP.

Doesn't matter for combat, applies for everyone equally; Druid at least has the option of having leftover spells for healing with last day's Goodberries (and seriously, how many games have you played where you always cast every single leveled spell every day? 'cause it's very rare and only on the roughest of days when any other class would already be dead in the case of Moon Druid; that happens rarely enough that you probably will have leftover spells for almost every day of the game and when not pressed for time, you can just rest a day to stock up for Goodberries before venturing into dangerous area again).


Moon Druid is a good PC option, but it's not just blanketly better and has many trade offs.

Evidence disagrees. Play the same campaign with the same party containing a Fighter on run 1, a Moon Druid on run 2. That's going to be easier with the Moon Druid basically always.

[Dork_Forge]

Conjure animals a very different problem than that. For one it is RAW that the player can pick the number and CR of the creatures affected, and leting the player pick the creatures is as fair as any other method the GM uses to determine the creatures aquired.
(My tables informal rules is the player picks 3-4 creatures prior to game and seeks DM approval prior to the start of play, that way we aren't digging for stat blocks every random combat).

Its not like the ability to drink potions are defined as DM discretion on whether it takes an action, bonus action, reaction, or free object interaction.

I get what you're saying, it's far from a 1:1 comparison, my point was just that 'lots of people do it that way' is not really a good argument for not doing stuff RAW/RAI in a forum discussion. I used the potion thing because I've had players have that confusion/ask that question many, many times.

I haven't had to run this outside of one shots, so I just quickly roll random or let the player choose as it's a one off.


My reading of this discussion so far is that we haven't agreed on what are the rules when comparing the effectiveness of the Moon Druid to, say, any fighter. So far, I feel you tend to move the goalposts and really on whataboutism to make a point. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is how I've read so far this discussion. To be sure, your points are valid. And personally I don't think the fighter is a bad class early on. On the contrary, he's quite good. However, as long as the rules of comparison are not clear, we can provide counterexamples all day and move in circles.

When have I moved goalposts? If I have it was a genuine mistake, I just don't know when this occurred.


Focusing on level 2, just for comparison. Druid has the option to turn into a brown bear twice per short rest. That's extra 64HP on top of his 17HP, 40ft speed, two +6 attacks, and when this is done, he's still a full caster.

Yup, but since it's omitted (again) from talking about the Druid side of things, having an AC of 11 in melee is worse than just getting 'extra 64 HP,' as those hit points are going to get whittled away faster and more consistently.


Against AC 15, Druid as a brown bear hits for 11 expected dmg /round on average. In the meantime, he may decide to concentrate on entangle, or similar. Or cast ice knife before he shifts or whatever is optimal for the particular encounter. Then he heals everyone with goodberries that were casted yesterday. Doing this in a fight of say 4 rounds, that's 44 dmg in an encounter, without having to cast a single spell, and while providing a meatshield of 64hp. If the enemy beats both wildshapes, then he can concentrate on a spell and still be more than relevant with thorn whip. All these at level 2.

What does a fighter do in the meantime with his +-20HP and one action surge, in the same encounter?

At 2nd level a Moon Druid is better in this situation, hardly surprising seeing as it's the level they have their subclass and the Fighter doesn't, whilst being able to commit long rest resources. So yeah, 2nd level the Druid wins.

...1st level? 2 spell slots, no Wildshape and (going off your example) 10 HP.

An aside: I'm not sure why you'd choose Thornwhip as an example here. It'd just pull them out of the Entangle (and closer to you) for low damage. I also don't like the forum practice of just assuming free Goodberries, but that feels like a losing battle.



"Yes, but what about scouting and consumed wildshapes?". Well, what about it? Is fighter a better scout? If the Druid spent a wildshape to scout, then he spent his day being useful and awesome while the fighter did nothing for the party. Now, he has only one extra wildshape for 32HP, but has already done something useful. Moreover, if the scouiting was sucessful and he spotted the enemies without being spotted himself, he can short rest and prepare of the encounter in order to regain his wildshape.

You seem to have taken this as spent Wildshapes are useless, my point was that you can't always assume that both Wildshapes are available for combat purposes, especially not when another common thing used for Druids is how good it is for scouting. That's having nature cake and eating it too.

But sure, I'll take the not-so-controversial stance of the Fighter can be a better scout because they'll likely have a better Stealth score than some random animal. Wildshape scouting often assumes that because you're an animal you won't be bothered or noticed, but also ignores that things eat animals, the presence of an animal in that location can be weird, and the ability to turn into animals with magic isn't usually a top secret super power.

The notion of short resting constantly, which is what you're touching on, is not a play style I either like or encourage, but applies to a lot of classes, Fighter included. Used Second Wind and Action Surge last fight? Short rest between every encounter!


"What about kobolds, drows and goblins?" The Druid can turn into a giant spider to climb the cave, has access to web as a ranged attack and a chance to restrain. Again, what does a fighter do in the same encounter?

I'm beginning to see a pattern of you taking aspects of my argument out of context. I gave examples of low CR creatures that you might expect to encounter, all of which not only have ranged attacks, but said ranged attacks aren't a downgrade from melee.

I did this because Spike Growth was being painted much stronger that it typically is, when many enemies can proc concentration saves from a distance without hurting themselves.

But since you've taken that out of context and turned it into just how a Druid handles it, which was never the point, I'll say this: The Fighter fights them how the normally would. Since, y'know, the reason they were being discusses (concentration) isn't applying to most Fighters.


Level 4: access to giant octopus (52HP, reach, grapple, restrain) or Giant toad. And all the good spells from the druid list.


What I am trying to say is, if we agree on the encounter, we will come up with one optimal strategy per class. Then we can compare the classes. Players first see the enemy then decide what to do. A druid won't randomly cast spike growth and turn into a giant bear in a cave full of archers for the same reason a fighter won't attack a wiretiger if he doesn't already have a magic weapon. Or a wizard won't cast fireball to a hell hound. You get the point.

See now, I inherently disagree with this because it's either metagaming or assuming the PC just knows what those things are. I've had plenty of characters hit a target's resistances and immunities because they haven't encountered it in game before and that's a reasonable thing to do. This is somewhat tangential to the main point, it's just an assumption that I firmly disagree with.

But sure, since you want a firm comparison, put forward a Druid build (with spells chosen), I'll put forth a Fighter and we'll see how they do.

Race: Thri-Kreen
Subclass: Battle Master (Trip Attack, Riposte, Tactical Assessment)
Background: Urchin
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 10
Skills: Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Perception, Athletics
Fighting Style :TWF

Level 1: 13 HP 18 AC
Level 2: 22 HP 18 AC + Action Surge
Level 3: 31 HP 18 AC + Maneuvers
Level 4: 40 HP 19 AC (ASI Dex +2)
Level 5: 49 HP 19 AC + Extra Attack
Level 6: 58 HP 20 AC (ASI Dex+2)
Level 7: 66 HP 20 AC (Rogue level: Sneak Attack, Expertise in Stealth and Athletics)

This build is a Fighter that:

- Functions as a tank thanks to high AC and high HP
- Can swap between melee and ranged effectively
- Has excellent Stealth thanks to be Dex focused, prof (later Expertise) and Chameleon Carapace
- Fairly good initiative
- Good Tier 1/early Tier 2 damage thanks to Secondary Arms allowing a shield and TWF, plus Action Surge and Maneuver damage, later Sneak.
- Good at scouting (excellent Stealth, good Perception, Thieves' Tools, Telepathy if scouting as a group, darkvision, able to add a d8 onto Invs, Hist, and Insight checks)

It doesn't cover absolutely every base, but it does some things excellently, some things very well and is okay-good at a lot. A straight Battle Master here also works, but I thought throwing a Rogue level would be interesting.

A reminder that the original criticism of me suggesting a Fighter for 7th level was that 'it only solves DPR problems' and then how a Druid is amazing. This Fighter has level appropriate damage, whilst also being above average in durability and being able to contribute at various parts of the game outside of combat.

A Druid is certainly a good option, I just disagree that the Fighter is only solving DPR problems, and that the Druid is amazing in all regards. The Moon Druid in particular has concessions that it needs to work around, people just tend to hand wave them and then wax lyrical about the buckets of hit points and damage they can do 'as well as be a full caster.'

Artificers are also epic in this level range, but I like the blank canvas of the Fighter and unique situation of getting two ASIs.




You generally travel in humanoid form. You'll cast round 1 and shift if needed. But if enemy can't harm you, you don't need to shift; why would you?

All you really did was reiterate my point that they're forced to cast early, but as for why you'd shift? Because it your entire subclass. Realistically, Moon Druid players shift early and often, because it's what their PC revolves around.


Fighter wants Wis anyways; Wis is by far the most common debilitating save and Fighter doesn't even have proficiency. Actually, this goes around the other way: Moon Druid only needs Wis (already a great stat) and some Con maybe; Fighter meanwhile needs Str, Con, and Wis to come even close and would be well-advised to have some Dex too (for initiative, ranged attacks, Dex-saves, etc.). Moon Druid gets Str, Dex and Con from Wild Shape in most combat scenarios so he needs fewer stats. And of course, this also means Fighter has way fewer HP overall due to Wild Shape. Also, Fighter vs. Caster HP difference is 1/Level; that's peanuts.

For some reason you're assuming a Str Fighter only, no idea why.

Yes a Moon Druid gets physical stats from Wild Shape, and often one or more of them will be lower than what the Druid would have normally. And the Druid still wants +2 Dex for medium armor and everything else, and will still want to invest in Con somewhat because their class list is practically defined by being concentration heavy.

As for the HP difference, it's 1 per level +1, as well as the difference in Con. You don't think that matters, literally every single campaign and one shot I've ever played has shown the HP difference between d10 and lower classes has mattered. You're also ignoring Wild Shape's generally trash AC, which is why Barkskin exists, WS hit points are far easier to take away.


How much does Second Wind heal? 1d10+Level/SR, average 10 HP on level 5. How much does Wild Shape grant? 104 per short rest on level 2 if we're going durability first. You'd need like 9 short rests for Fighter while Moon Druid gets none to catch up to Moon Druid on level 5 (remember, the difference in class HP is 5 + 5 from hit dice). Lower AC is...eh, it matters but it doesn't even double the incoming damage in most cases. The Druid just has such a vast HP pool that they don't really care about enemies attacking them since their HP is fully disposable. Also, "Bigger target" is not a thing in this game.

Bigger target is most certainly a thing in this game: Literal size means more enemies can surround you, you have a harder time taking cover, and with Wild Shape you'll be in melee whilst making yourself an obvious target vs the rest of the party. That, combined with a trash AC on most forms, whittles down HP fast.

I'm not sure why you're trying to equate Second Wind heal totals with Wild Shape HP, the Fighter's pool is more protected and they don't have to juggle multiple pools. All that Wild Shape HP does jack for a Druid that goes down before shifting, and their native HP can get whittled down in a variety of ways. It's not, never has been, and never will be as simple as 'Moon Druids just have x more HP'.

And are you sure they don't care about getting attacked when they're supposedly concentrating in some of these fights?


True, Moon Druid can do other things with their resources. But given that Fighter just can't do those things, period, that just means Moon Druid can be a Super Fighter OR do other cool stuff too. Meaning it's just even more on top of what a Fighter offers.

This is just baseless 'casters r better k?' spiel. Fighters can cast spells if they want, they can tackle basically all aspects of the game. Please stop pretending like all Fighters are nothing but beat sticks.


If you have Res: Con you use your base form's Con modifier in Wild Shape. It's explicitly spelled out in the ability. So form Con bonus doesn't really matter unless you want it to.

Ignoring the fact that you're just handwaving the cost of getting that feat... what? Where would you get the idea that you can just use your humanoid Con mod?

Applying proficiency I could understand, but there is literally zero reason to apply humanoid Con mod.


You don't cast them if that were the case. You cast them when a melee enemy wants to get to you. And Moon Beam can be moved as an action so if it's really an inconvenience you just put it where it's not.

Ah yes, all fights are so static and transparent at first look that a Druid can make an unerring choice on their first turn. Hidden enemies? Nah. Reinforcements? Nah. Any aspect of a fight that isn't as clear as day on first glance? Who'd do that!


Doesn't matter for combat, applies for everyone equally; Druid at least has the option of having leftover spells for healing with last day's Goodberries (and seriously, how many games have you played where you always cast every single leveled spell every day? 'cause it's very rare and only on the roughest of days when any other class would already be dead in the case of Moon Druid; that happens rarely enough that you probably will have leftover spells for almost every day of the game and when not pressed for time, you can just rest a day to stock up for Goodberries before venturing into dangerous area again).


How many games where casters cast every last spell in Tier 1? All of them. It's not a lot of spells and players like doing what their class is about.

And can you answer any of this without assuming free hit point goodberry spam? Even if you do have left over from previous day, you're right it applies to everyone! And that's a lot of hit points to regen amongtst the party. Stop handwaving OOC damage aside because sometimes, some people have the option to spam Goodberry and take it.

This also just feels weird 'doesn't matter for combat,' you've never had a trap trigger an encounter? Players always immediately heal up to full HP anytime they're damaged?

You also just said losing initiative doesn't matter.... That can literally down the Druid before they can shift.


Evidence disagrees. Play the same campaign with the same party containing a Fighter on run 1, a Moon Druid on run 2. That's going to be easier with the Moon Druid basically always.

You're literally just saying 'evidence' and using it as evidence. I've played a lot of games, different PCs bring different things to the table, cause y'know, group game. Shockingly I don't subscribe to your well established opinion of 'martials are pointless in 5E.' It doesn't reflect my experience, the way I read the game, or any situations I've gone through with you.

[Dr.Samurai]

Let's not forget as well that the druid can only turn into animals it has seen.

So sure... level 4 opens up giant octopuses and giant toads. It doesn't mean the Moon Druid can automatically wildshape into them.

Or, we can just assume the druid can wildshape into literally any beast in any book as soon as the form is available and just ignore the text for the ability.

Also, just so we're all on the same page, a roctopus can't just move grappled enemies around by waving its tentacles. It has to move from its square and drag the enemies. While grabbing someone, it's 20ft speed is reduced to 10ft. So it can move two squares, dealing 4d4 damage automatically if the enemy is being dragged through Spike Growth. Also, it seems to me that this locks out its only attack, as the attack is called Tentacles, and if you grab someone it says "the octopus can't use its tentacles on another target". This seems to imply that the octopus is using multiple tentacles to deal damage and restrain its target, as opposed to the octopus can grab/restrain up to 8 enemies and move around dragging them through Spike Growth.

So the druid grabbed a bad guy, and then each turn did the hokey pokey to deal an auto 4d4 damage. I mean... cool. Not exactly game-breaking stuff here.

[Keravath]

...
But the real important thing here is spells known. High level spells are really good, and not just the ones you cast with slots in an adventuring day. 5th level for example does give you fireball and hypnotic pattern and such, but it also gives you access to rituals like phantom steed which are huge force multipliers for your whole team.

Water Breathing is similar. At higher levels you have simulacrum, which is a truly excellent spell even if you can't use it all the time. Not to mention that a lot of wizard class features scale off number of wizard levels, which creates an effect similar to that of a monk. If you're playing with a thorns abjurer for example, losing a level is costly because it decreases the size of your ward.

I'm just curious how "phantom steed" can be a "huge force multipliers for your whole team".

It is equivalent to a riding horse except faster with 100' of movement or 10 miles in an hour.

Great speed. However, it only lasts an hour. Casting time is 1 minute with a ritual casting time of 11 minutes.

If the DM allows the wizard to cast the ritual while controlling and riding their horse then the wizard could spend 55 minutes casting the rituals for a party of 5 characters then start riding and create new horses to replace the ones used up. This works since the first horse isn't created until the first spell completes after 11 minutes so the first horse has 16 minutes left to go on it once the 5 characters have horses. A new one can be ready for them when the first fades.

However, this also assumes that horse-like creature doesn't need to be loaded like a horse (so that the transfer time to a new horse is negligible) and that it will be able to function with the rider carrying a 100 pound pack with weight unevenly distributed.

They disappear if they take any damage so they are less useful in combat once things like fireball become common. So, they mostly provide a reasonably quick way to move a party of up to 5 people from place to place but it takes an hour to get started (not good for a fast getaway) and the wizard will be concentrating on casting rituals for the entire travel time. (However, phantom steed has no food/maintenance requirements that normal horses would have - though most folks just gloss over any impact of those elements anyway)

Convenient yes. "Huge force multiplier"? I don't think so.

Water breathing is similar. VERY convenient if the party has to adventure underwater or even risk falling in water and not very useful otherwise. They are convenient utility abilities whose fundamental advantage is that the wizard just has to find spell scrolls for them since they can be cast as rituals and don't require spell slots.

--------------------

Final point, the discussion about full casters at level 7 appears to assume that the wizard has access to whatever spells they want. In reality, they only have guaranteed access to 6 first level spells and 2 more from each level up. So a level 7 wizard will have a minimum of 18 spells - at most 2 from 4th level. I've played in games where scrolls and spell books were very sparse so that was almost ALL the spells the character had.

Does a level 7 wizard still compare well with 8 1st level spells, 4 second, 4 third and 2 fourth level spells?

[Eldariel]

Phantom Steed is obvious. You can ritualise on horseback so you can keep 4 ritualised at all times. And 100' is a lot. More than that, especially since it can Dash too. 200' movement in combat until you get hit means you'll automatically reach enemies you want or just superkite to the point that you can't be reached by superlong ranged enemies.

Really, this is not a topic that requires discussion. The arguments to the contrary mostly nitpick edgecases, concern poor play rather than weak classes, or are otherwise irrelevant; it is an obvious fact that casters just get more stuff than non-casters and fill all roles in the party better than non-casters and there's no reason for non-casters to exist from an optimization perspective (except maybe as extremely late dips for Action Surge, Expertise, Cunning Action, Rage, Reckless Attack, or Wis-to-AC on Tier 4 when you already have 9th level spells). If all abilities were equal, there's just no way to make classes that get like ~5 abilities overall equal to ones that have their choice of a hundred. And of course, in this edition abilities casters get tend to be stronger than ones non-casters get because WotC designed themselves into a corner. If you want a D&D edition where casters actually have a use for non-casters, look at PF2e. That did it more right. 5e just gives all the toys to casters and martials are left with scraps; they aren't even the best in the "deal damage to a single target"-niche, let alone in general.

[strangebloke]

Let's not forget as well that the druid can only turn into animals it has seen.

So sure... level 4 opens up giant octopuses and giant toads. It doesn't mean the Moon Druid can automatically wildshape into them.

Or, we can just assume the druid can wildshape into literally any beast in any book as soon as the form is available and just ignore the text for the ability.
A Moon Druid is, per standard lore, part of a Druid Circle, specifically a circle of specialized shapeshifters who live in the wild. Its trivial for someone to say "I saw my mentor turn into this once." Even if this is disallowed or the DM requires them to only list 2-3 CR 1 forms they've interacted with, CR 1 beasts are simply pretty common enemies at low levels.

But that's not even that important, because moon druid isn't strong specifically because of Deinonychus or giant octopus or whatever, its strong because getting access to multiattack and a whole 'nother HP pool is really strong. A moon druid who only turns into a Brown Bear is still insanely strong! Sure, other forms are better overall, or better in specific situations, but you don't need them.


Also, just so we're all on the same page, a roctopus can't just move grappled enemies around by waving its tentacles. It has to move from its square and drag the enemies. While grabbing someone, it's 20ft speed is reduced to 10ft. So it can move two squares, dealing 4d4 damage automatically if the enemy is being dragged through Spike Growth. Also, it seems to me that this locks out its only attack, as the attack is called Tentacles, and if you grab someone it says "the octopus can't use its tentacles on another target". This seems to imply that the octopus is using multiple tentacles to deal damage and restrain its target, as opposed to the octopus can grab/restrain up to 8 enemies and move around dragging them through Spike Growth.

So the druid grabbed a bad guy, and then each turn did the hokey pokey to deal an auto 4d4 damage. I mean... cool. Not exactly game-breaking stuff here.
Yeah, the cheese grater combo is meh. the real value of giant octopus is the restraint debuff.


I'm just curious how "phantom steed" can be a "huge force multipliers for your whole team".

It is equivalent to a riding horse except faster with 100' of movement or 10 miles in an hour.

Great speed. However, it only lasts an hour. Casting time is 1 minute with a ritual casting time of 11 minutes.

If the DM allows the wizard to cast the ritual while controlling and riding their horse then the wizard could spend 55 minutes casting the rituals for a party of 5 characters then start riding and create new horses to replace the ones used up. This works since the first horse isn't created until the first spell completes after 11 minutes so the first horse has 16 minutes left to go on it once the 5 characters have horses. A new one can be ready for them when the first fades.

However, this also assumes that horse-like creature doesn't need to be loaded like a horse (so that the transfer time to a new horse is negligible) and that it will be able to function with the rider carrying a 100 pound pack with weight unevenly distributed.

By RAW/RAI there's no reason to disallow ritual casting in movement. The only requirement for casting a spell with a 10 minute duration is that you spend your action and concentrate. But yeah, otherwise agreed, though I'm not sure how 'evenly distributed weight' is a relevant concern.


They disappear if they take any damage so they are less useful in combat once things like fireball become common. So, they mostly provide a reasonably quick way to move a party of up to 5 people from place to place but it takes an hour to get started (not good for a fast getaway) and the wizard will be concentrating on casting rituals for the entire travel time. (However, phantom steed has no food/maintenance requirements that normal horses would have - though most folks just gloss over any impact of those elements anyway)

Convenient yes. "Huge force multiplier"? I don't think so.
Even if the steed dies turn 1 or turn 2, it can easily buy you 200+ feet of movement in the first turn, along with taking a hit for you. That's pretty good! A feature that said "everyone in the whole party gets 200' of movement in the first turn of combat" would be really strong!

Is it always relevant? No. But it is good.

Water breathing is similar. VERY convenient if the party has to adventure underwater or even risk falling in water and not very useful otherwise. They are convenient utility abilities whose fundamental advantage is that the wizard just has to find spell scrolls for them since they can be cast as rituals and don't require spell slots.
Having water breathing every day whether you need it or not is a really good feature, and every wizard can have it for minimal cost.

Abilities that effect the whole party like that are always a big deal, and its just one of many really good things that wizard get for very little cost.


Final point, the discussion about full casters at level 7 appears to assume that the wizard has access to whatever spells they want. In reality, they only have guaranteed access to 6 first level spells and 2 more from each level up. So a level 7 wizard will have a minimum of 18 spells - at most 2 from 4th level. I've played in games where scrolls and spell books were very sparse so that was almost ALL the spells the character had.

Does a level 7 wizard still compare well with 8 1st level spells, 4 second, 4 third and 2 fourth level spells?
Yeah, it does, at least from the PVP and PVE testing I've done with these assumptions.

And I don't think these assumptions are very reasonable, FWIW. Especially by 7th level, it'd be pretty unusual to not have found any scrolls or spell books. Most people don't have a problem assuming that fighters can get plate by 7th level.

[Dork_Forge]

Really, this is not a topic that requires discussion. The arguments to the contrary mostly nitpick edgecases, concern poor play rather than weak classes, or are otherwise irrelevant; it is an obvious fact that casters just get more stuff than non-casters and fill all roles in the party better than non-casters and there's no reason for non-casters to exist from an optimization perspective (except maybe as extremely late dips for Action Surge, Expertise, Cunning Action, Rage, Reckless Attack, or Wis-to-AC on Tier 4 when you already have 9th level spells). If all abilities were equal, there's just no way to make classes that get like ~5 abilities overall equal to ones that have their choice of a hundred. And of course, in this edition abilities casters get tend to be stronger than ones non-casters get because WotC designed themselves into a corner. If you want a D&D edition where casters actually have a use for non-casters, look at PF2e. That did it more right. 5e just gives all the toys to casters and martials are left with scraps; they aren't even the best in the "deal damage to a single target"-niche, let alone in general.

Yeah there it is, discussions about this will never get anywhere when you hold an absolute like 'there is no reason for non-casters to exist.'

I wouldn't call a party of nothing but full casters 'optimized,' but I'm sure you'd disagree. After all, why would reliance on spell slots and low HP totals matter in a 1-7 game?

There's just no discussion to be had when you hold such an extreme and absolute view, the answer will always be a caster and martials will never be enough, regardless the evidence put before you.

[Dr.Samurai]

Really, this is not a topic that requires discussion. The arguments to the contrary mostly nitpick edgecases, concern poor play rather than weak classes, or are otherwise irrelevant; it is an obvious fact that casters just get more stuff than non-casters and fill all roles in the party better than non-casters and there's no reason for non-casters to exist from an optimization perspective (except maybe as extremely late dips for Action Surge, Expertise, Cunning Action, Rage, Reckless Attack, or Wis-to-AC on Tier 4 when you already have 9th level spells). If all abilities were equal, there's just no way to make classes that get like ~5 abilities overall equal to ones that have their choice of a hundred. And of course, in this edition abilities casters get tend to be stronger than ones non-casters get because WotC designed themselves into a corner. If you want a D&D edition where casters actually have a use for non-casters, look at PF2e. That did it more right. 5e just gives all the toys to casters and martials are left with scraps; they aren't even the best in the "deal damage to a single target"-niche, let alone in general.
Eh... I find that this attitude comes with a lot of assumptions, and it's useful to have the discussion to check for accuracy. "Gets more stuff" doesn't mean "obsoletes all non-casters". There's leaps made to reach conclusions. That a caster COULD fill in for various roles doesn't mean that in actual gameplay, they do.

A Moon Druid is, per standard lore, part of a Druid Circle, specifically a circle of specialized shapeshifters who live in the wild. Its trivial for someone to say "I saw my mentor turn into this once." Even if this is disallowed or the DM requires them to only list 2-3 CR 1 forms they've interacted with, CR 1 beasts are simply pretty common enemies at low levels.
It still begs the question, what forms does your mentor know? I'm sure a druid sees many types of wildlife in their surroundings. I'm sure also that many of them will not be useful to combat. I'm sure that not all beasts exist in the same environments. I don't see the point in arguing over whether you can select the animals for Conjure Animals, but then ignoring the part about Wildshape in which you must have seen the animal. We take it for granted all the animals that are out there because we have zoos, and now we have the internet. But if we're thinking about a druid that only knows the animals in the lands they've lived in, there is a question about what the druid has actually seen.

But that's not even that important, because moon druid isn't strong specifically because of Deinonychus or giant octopus or whatever, its strong because getting access to multiattack and a whole 'nother HP pool is really strong. A moon druid who only turns into a Brown Bear is still insanely strong! Sure, other forms are better overall, or better in specific situations, but you don't need them.
At the lowest levels, sure. But when someone is comparing it to the fighter, then these assumptions do become important. Because if brown bear is the druid's strongest form for several levels, then the fighter will surpass it. Easily. With better AC, better combat saves, similar damage, and better combat features, all the druid really has is more HP, which it can supplement with healing using spell slots. It's a different conversation than assuming the druid has the best form at each attainable level. As an example, at CR 3 you have the ankylosaurus, the giant scorpion, and the killer whale. Should we just assume that all druids have seen these animals and can transform into them immediately upon attaining the right level?

[Eldariel]

Eh... I find that this attitude comes with a lot of assumptions, and it's useful to have the discussion to check for accuracy. "Gets more stuff" doesn't mean "obsoletes all non-casters". There's leaps made to reach conclusions. That a caster COULD fill in for various roles doesn't mean that in actual gameplay, they do.

I mean, that depends on the party: if the party is designed so that the casters are slotted into the roles classically taken by non-casters, they would. Of course, it's also possible to play in a way that they don't, but that doesn't really speak for the system as much as tradition at that point which isn't really a valuable consideration for optimization purposes.

[Dr.Samurai]

I mean, that depends on the party: if the party is designed so that the casters are slotted into the roles classically taken by non-casters, they would.
No, it depends on a lot more than the party. Depends on the DM too, and encounter design, etc.

Of course, it's also possible to play in a way that they don't, but that doesn't really speak for the system as much as tradition at that point which isn't really a valuable consideration for optimization purposes.
The "system" is run by a DM and so you can't just assume that things will line up to prove your point.

Further, I'm not sure why the reverse isn't also true. Can't I play in a party with a barbarian, an archer fighter, a rogue, and a monk, and get along just fine without a caster?

[Dork_Forge]

Further, I'm not sure why the reverse isn't also true. Can't I play in a party with a barbarian, an archer fighter, a rogue, and a monk, and get along just fine without a caster?

The mobility of that party would be amazing, overall a little bit of Bad Batch vibes.

[Eldariel]

No, it depends on a lot more than the party. Depends on the DM too, and encounter design, etc.

I disagree. For basically any DM and any encounter design, a caster can fill the role a non-caster would in the same party while doing other stuff. It's hard to even imagine something where a non-caster could outperform a caster built towards the same goal sufficiently to make up for lacking the class resources.


Further, I'm not sure why the reverse isn't also true. Can't I play in a party with a barbarian, an archer fighter, a rogue, and a monk, and get along just fine without a caster?

You could, of course. Power-wise said party would just be terrible and as soon as it's stuck dealing with anything rough it'll likely get TPKd. It has no AOE, no information gathering/scouting beyond praying Rogue rolls well, no teleportation, no minionmancy, etc. In other words, if it's stuck dealing with 10 Veterans it's just going to have to try and eat through them one at a time while taking a ton of damage instead of just AOE CCing them, AOE damaging them, summoning 8 animals to bumrush them or whatever. If it's stuck getting past a lake of lava, it's better hope the fire elementals in the lake don't burn their rope, etc. It doesn't have Pass without Trace to even sneak well nor anything to heal up aside from hit dice and like second wind and maybe Mercy Monk's hits so the damage it takes will stick and it has few ways to bypass too tough encounters (Shadow Monk could help with PWT and probably should but that makes the sustenance angle even rougher). There are lots of obstacles that just get much harder (to the point of potential impossibility or Extreme Improbability) without spells and this just pulls it to the logical extreme.


Like, take a Shepherd Druid/Twilight Cleric/Bladesinger Wizard/Eloquence Bard and Battlemaster Archer/Arcane Trickster/Zealot Barbarian/Mercy Monk party. Both are pretty much top rated subclass for each class (aside from Bladesinger and Battlemaster, which are mere "good", but it's important to have a proper archer in the party). We have one party with a ton of sustenance, AOE, impregnable frontline, heavy CC, autosuccess on a ton of skills, etc. Then we have one with...the slightest bits of utility, a bit of sustenance, no AOE, very weak CC, etc. Take the latter party and it has superwatered down versions of the basics of the first party and none of the higher tier powers. Throw them through a gauntlet of rough encounters or a dangerous campaign on any level, be it 1, 5, 11, 15, 20 or whatever, and I can guarantee you that party #2 will die much, much, much more than party #1 provided that both are piloted somewhat competently.

[strangebloke]

Yeah there it is, discussions about this will never get anywhere when you hold an absolute like 'there is no reason for non-casters to exist.'

I wouldn't call a party of nothing but full casters 'optimized,' but I'm sure you'd disagree. After all, why would reliance on spell slots and low HP totals matter in a 1-7 game?

There's just no discussion to be had when you hold such an extreme and absolute view, the answer will always be a caster and martials will never be enough, regardless the evidence put before you.

Martial/caster arguments always rely on the same braindead arguments. Casters are dependent on spellslots. Casters are squishy.

But these generalizations simply aren't accurate.

For durability, clerics have top notch AC and only miss 1-2 HP per level relative to the toughest martials. Druids (especially moon druids) have so much effective HP its basically a bad joke. Bards and warlocks are a single half-feat from matching clerics for durability. Is 1-2 HP per level so MASSIVE an advantage that it offsets spellcasting? No, not really.

Okay, well then what about 'dependence on spell slots'? Again, Clerics don't have fewer attacks than fighters from levels 1-4. Druids have more attacks than most characters from levels 1-4 via multiattack. All casters have cantrips and most have rituals, both of which create a lot of out of combat utility without resource consumption.

But also.... spell slots are just really efficient? Considering how many they have, I mean. 1 casting of Bless or Entangle will massively change a whole fight, and that's a single first level slot. Clerics and Druids can cast tons of those. Meanwhile, monks are starved for ki and barbarians can easily run out of rage - and how good are those classes without their resources? Give me a level three barbarian who's out of rage and a cleric who's out of spell slots and I know who I'm picking for my team.



Eh... I find that this attitude comes with a lot of assumptions, and it's useful to have the discussion to check for accuracy. "Gets more stuff" doesn't mean "obsoletes all non-casters". There's leaps made to reach conclusions. That a caster COULD fill in for various roles doesn't mean that in actual gameplay, they do.
What does this mean? What specific scenario can a level 3 barbarian save the day in, that a druid can't?

Of course, the level 3 barbarian can contribute. They're not worthless. But in a question of which is better, the druid's advantages overall in most situations are not small or trivial.

Its like... you have your basketball team at your local gym. Gary is a valued member, he helps out. If you replace him with LeBron though, the team does become more competitive. Now maybe you'd prefer to play with Gary, after all, your team isn't playing competitively, its just for fun. But that doesn't mean LeBron is a worse player than Gary, it just means your team doesn't care about who's 'best.'

Further, I'm not sure why the reverse isn't also true. Can't I play in a party with a barbarian, an archer fighter, a rogue, and a monk, and get along just fine without a caster?

The reverse isn't true because there's LOADS of things that casters can do that martials can't, and nothing martials can do that casters can't. Its just that simple. I wish it wasn't, but it is.

Here's a PVE challenge some friends and I put together:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvYAgTaxidI
The first encounter, shown in this vid has LOADS of huge, fast moving threats come in at a high level party. The unoptimized martials here flounder. They fail their saves, and slowly try to whittle down one target after another. Meanwhile the wizard is blowing up whole formations of enemies at once, negating the actions of multiple high-CR enemies, and dealing huge amounts of single-target damage. At one point the Wizard deals 96 damage with two second level spell slots.

Now some of the encounters that will be uploaded later do favor a beatstick martial more, but the nuke wizard does far better in those encounters than a martial would do in this first one.

[Dork_Forge]

I disagree. For basically any DM and any encounter design, a caster can fill the role a non-caster would in the same party while doing other stuff. It's hard to even imagine something where a non-caster could outperform a caster built towards the same goal sufficiently to make up for lacking the class resources.

To highlight the absurdity of absolutes: Antimagic fields.

For a more broad and reasonable example: Creatures with magic resistance are pretty widespread.



You could, of course. Power-wise said party would just be terrible and as soon as it's stuck dealing with anything rough it'll likely get TPKd. It has no AOE, no information gathering/scouting beyond praying Rogue rolls well, no teleportation, no minionmancy, etc. In other words, if it's stuck dealing with 10 Veterans it's just going to have to try and eat through them one at a time while taking a ton of damage instead of just AOE CCing them, AOE damaging them, summoning 8 animals to bumrush them or whatever. If it's stuck getting past a lake of lava, it's better hope the fire elementals in the lake don't burn their rope, etc. It doesn't have Pass without Trace to even sneak well nor anything to heal up aside from hit dice and like second wind and maybe Mercy Monk's hits so the damage it takes will stick and it has few ways to bypass too tough encounters (Shadow Monk could help with PWT and probably should but that makes the sustenance angle even rougher). There are lots of obstacles that just get much harder (to the point of potential impossibility or Extreme Improbability) without spells and this just pulls it to the logical extreme.

First, minionmancy is not essential or a pillar of gameplay, a party isn't really lacking anything if it doesn't have it. But the rest is a bunch of assumptions you just made for some reason:

Healing: Healer feat, Second Wind, Mercy Monk, Aasimar, potions, feats to grab spells

AOE: 4E Monk, Sun Soul Monk, Arcane Archer Fighter, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster

AOE CC: Martials don't need this like casters, because they have multiple attacks that can have control as riders

Teleportation: literally three different kinds of Elf, an Elf racial feat, Fey Touched, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, Echo Knight, Shadow Monk, Soul Knife, Wild Magic Barbarian

I'm not really sure why you've gone for lake of lava as a challenge, presumably because you think it's harder than just a gorge, I also have no idea why you think flying, levitation, or just super jumping is not possible for this party. There are a lot of different options that would beat that.

Also not really sure why you're dismissing scouting as 'hoping the Rogue rolls well enough' when they'd actively have to roll badly to fail. You also seem to think that Shadow Monk is the only way to grab PwT, which it isn't, Wood Elf racial nets it too.

A party would never come across a problem in the game they couldn't get past just because they don't have a full caster, because that's not how anyone designs adventures.


Like, take a Shepherd Druid/Twilight Cleric/Bladesinger Wizard/Eloquence Bard and Battlemaster Archer/Arcane Trickster/Zealot Barbarian/Mercy Monk party. Both are pretty much top rated subclass for each class (aside from Bladesinger and Battlemaster, which are mere "good", but it's important to have a proper archer in the party). We have one party with a ton of sustenance, AOE, impregnable frontline, heavy CC, autosuccess on a ton of skills, etc. Then we have one with...the slightest bits of utility, a bit of sustenance, no AOE, very weak CC, etc. Take the latter party and it has superwatered down versions of the basics of the first party and none of the higher tier powers. Throw them through a gauntlet of rough encounters or a dangerous campaign on any level, be it 1, 5, 11, 15, 20 or whatever, and I can guarantee you that party #2 will die much, much, much more than party #1 provided that both are piloted somewhat competently.

It's funny how whenever this conversation comes up, you always have a caster with a martial subclass, yet martials are pointless in 5E. Anyway, put down a gauntlet of encounters and let's see.


Martial/caster arguments always rely on the same braindead arguments. Casters are dependent on spellslots. Casters are squishy.

But these generalizations simply aren't accurate.

For durability, clerics have top notch AC and only miss 1-2 HP per level relative to the toughest martials. Druids (especially moon druids) have so much effective HP its basically a bad joke. Bards and warlocks are a single half-feat from matching clerics for durability. Is 1-2 HP per level so MASSIVE an advantage that it offsets spellcasting? No, not really.

Clerics - Not all of them get heavy armor, they don't have the built in option of defense. The lower HP is something they need to overcome, like all casters. Durability comparisons are not an even starting line by design.

Druids - You seem to be implying Wild Shape for all Druids, which seems a bit out there as a suggestion. Non moon Druids Wild Shaping in combat will contribute nothing but there concentration and lose form quickly, likely lose concentration quickly too, if you mean something else please clarify.

Bards and Warlocks - Ah, you are considering medium armor and shields 'top notch,' it's good, but hard disagree it's top notch, you're capping out at 19 with disadvantage on Stealth unless you invest more.

1-2 HP: I have no idea why you've made the reductionist of 1-2HP vs all of Spellcasting, I don't think anyone, including myself, ever argued that. It is a meaningful difference imo that I've seen played out hundreds of times, but my point was that the casters have a deficit to overcome. That's not all a martial has for durability, as you well know.


Okay, well then what about 'dependence on spell slots'? Again, Clerics don't have fewer attacks than fighters from levels 1-4. Druids have more attacks than most characters from levels 1-4 via multiattack. All casters have cantrips and most have rituals, both of which create a lot of out of combat utility without resource consumption.

- Not all Clerics have martial weapons, and let's be real most aren't likely to start with a +3 in their attack stat.
- No casters natively have Fighting Styles (small exception for a single Bard subclass at 3rd)
- What games are you playing where Druids are Wild Shaping in combat when they're not moon? Why are some of them doing that instead of using their subclasses? Really don't think this is a meaningful addition, but I also really doubt people would really do this.
- Cantrips do less damage than weapons by design, the only contender here is a Warlock who is basically finger gunning the equivalent of a heavy crossbow in 1-4.
- There are 6 full casters. 3 of them natively get ritual casting, which takes longer and is a small subset of utility spells. Are rituals nice? Yes. Can you always take the time/afford concentration/are they always applciable? No.



But also.... spell slots are just really efficient? Considering how many they have, I mean. 1 casting of Bless or Entangle will massively change a whole fight, and that's a single first level slot. Clerics and Druids can cast tons of those. Meanwhile, monks are starved for ki and barbarians can easily run out of rage - and how good are those classes without their resources? Give me a level three barbarian who's out of rage and a cleric who's out of spell slots and I know who I'm picking for my team.

One problem with these comparisons is that the casters always seem to act with peak efficiency. Yeah those 1 minute long conc. spells can change encounters, and a Guiding Bolt can miss and do nothing. They have the potential to be efficient, but that's often overblown.

I mean, core Monk has a bucketload of stuff that doesn't need Ki, and not all subclasses need Ki for all features? Barbarian is a little rougher at such a low level (gets better with Fast Movement and Feral Instinct), but having really high HP total and either high base damage (two handed) or high AC (shield) is nice. Heck, one of them even has ritual magic. I'm not seeing a compelling point here, sorry, martials without resources tend to do really well still. And a lot of those resources are short rest based, unlike spell slots for most casters.

[Unoriginal]

It's hard to even imagine something where a non-caster could outperform a caster built towards the same goal sufficiently to make up for lacking the class resources.

I got something. Would you be interested in seeing if you can build a caster who can outperform a non-caster for this goal?

Could be an interesting challenge, and I'm curious about what you (and other people if they're interested, of course) can come up with.

EDIT: I can promise there will be no Antimagic Field or dead-magic zone in this challenge.

[Dork_Forge]

I got something. Would you be interested in seeing if you can build a caster who can outperform a non-caster for this goal?

Could be an interesting challenge, and I'm curious about what you (and other people if they're interested, of course) can come up with.

EDIT: I can promise there will be no Antimagic Field or dead-magic zone in this challenge.

This sounds interesting, what parameters?

Edit: And Strangebloke, watching that vid now and... the hexvoker starting combat with a familiar buffed with a precast Dragon's Breath doesn't exactly bode well. The entire encounter set up at first seems skewed towards PCs tbh, but I don't know what decisions were made going into it.

[Eldariel]

I got something. Would you be interested in seeing if you can build a caster who can outperform a non-caster for this goal?

Could be an interesting challenge, and I'm curious about what you (and other people if they're interested, of course) can come up with.

EDIT: I can promise there will be no Antimagic Field or dead-magic zone in this challenge.

Sure, just state the level range, character creation rules, and the rest of the party (or would you like a single character challenge or a full party?).

[strangebloke]

A party would never come across a problem in the game they couldn't get past just because they don't have a full caster, because that's not how anyone designs adventures.
Why even talk about optimization then? If you're presuming that the DM is going to make something that you can do no matter what, you might as well say that a non-variant human with 8s in every stat and no class features is equally as good as any character.

I have sent my players against encounters where they died

It's funny how whenever this conversation comes up, you always have a caster with a martial subclass, yet martials are pointless in 5E. Anyway, put down a gauntlet of encounters and let's see.
Already did dude. That's what the guantlet is. Tell me with a straight face that a normal barbarian could kill 5 chuuls, a hydra, and 10 sharks without taking any damage.

But yeah, martial subclasses are useful talking points because they give you everything the martial class has for very little cost. Extra attack is a good feature, bladesinger gets a better version of it. This isn't to say Bladesingers are much better than evokers or abjurers or whatever, but its illustrative that the best martial features are very easy to poach.


Clerics - Not all of them get heavy armor, they don't have the built in option of defense. The lower HP is something they need to overcome, like all casters. Durability comparisons are not an even starting line by design.
Not all martials get heavy armor either, what's your point? Clerics are martials with respect to AC, unless someone is picking up defense style and plate.


Druids - You seem to be implying Wild Shape for all Druids, which seems a bit out there as a suggestion. Non moon Druids Wild Shaping in combat will contribute nothing but there concentration and lose form quickly, likely lose concentration quickly too, if you mean something else please clarify./quote]

Black Bear is still a massive chunk of free HP if you're actually worried about dying from damage, which almost no druids actually are.
[QUOTE=Dork_Forge;25714646]Bards and Warlocks - Ah, you are considering medium armor and shields 'top notch,' it's good, but hard disagree it's top notch, you're capping out at 19 with disadvantage on Stealth unless you invest more.
Most barbarians give up AC for damage
Most Monks never get to 19 AC (though they can quickly with certain builds)
Only S&B fighters ever get past 19 AC consistently.
Rogues rarely beat 17 AC without help.

yes, 19AC is top notch. Extreme hyperspecialists like forge clerics and paladins and S&B eldritch knights do get higher of course, but those are casters. AC is cheap and casters have more ways to boost AC if you care about it. The slightly higher baseline AC of (some) martials isn't really that large of an advantage.


[/]1-2 HP: I have no idea why you've made the reductionist of 1-2HP vs all of Spellcasting, I don't think anyone, including myself, ever argued that. It is a meaningful difference imo that I've seen played out hundreds of times, but my point was that the casters have a deficit to overcome. That's not all a martial has for durability, as you well know.
The comparison between a SR resource like wildshape/Life Cleric CD and second wind is not one that's at all favorable to second wind.

Your aversion to actually walking through what these differences look like in


One problem with these comparisons is that the casters always seem to act with peak efficiency. Yeah those 1 minute long conc. spells can change encounters, and a Guiding Bolt can miss and do nothing. They have the potential to be efficient, but that's often overblown.
Sure you can choose less efficient spells for more power / explosive potential, but that doesn't change that you can get very very consistent value out of a longer-lasting spell like spiritual weapon or heat metal.

Again, when was the last time you saw a druid run out of slots? It doesn't happen. Their spells are almost too efficient.

I mean, core Monk has a bucketload of stuff that doesn't need Ki, and not all subclasses need Ki for all features? Barbarian is a little rougher at such a low level (gets better with Fast Movement and Feral Instinct), but having really high HP total and either high base damage (two handed) or high AC (shield) is nice. Heck, one of them even has ritual magic. I'm not seeing a compelling point here, sorry, martials without resources tend to do really well still. And a lot of those resources are short rest based, unlike spell slots for most casters.
Damn, yeah, they have an advantage of 1-2 hp per level and 1-2 damage per round in melee against specific mid-AC target. Truly a crushing advantage. :smallyuk: Absolutely nothing other than marginally higher HP and damage matters, after all.

Being able to choose between weapon attack, toll the dead, and sacred flame already does a lot to equalize the damage, especially because most of this flexibility exists at range. Cases where rituals like silence or spells like guidance come up are not edge cases - they're very normal parts of dungeoneering.


TEdit: And Strangebloke, watching that vid now and... the hexvoker starting combat with a familiar buffed with a precast Dragon's Breath doesn't exactly bode well. The entire encounter set up at first seems skewed towards PCs tbh, but I don't know what decisions were made going into it.
Its cast by the simulacrum. No precasting allowed except for stuff with 8 hour duration or greater.

And how is this "skewed toward PCs"?

[Dork_Forge]

Why even talk about optimization then? If you're presuming that the DM is going to make something that you can do no matter what, you might as well say that a non-variant human with 8s in every stat and no class features is equally as good as any character.

I have sent my players against encounters where they died

I'm not talking about encounter difficulty, I'm talking about adventure progression. If an adventure requires the Teleport spell, for example, to progress and there is no way to cast it outside the party, and the DM knows the party won't have it themselves...

What is the point of that game?

That's very different to the difficulty of combat encounters, which isn't what I was talking about. A Human with nothing but 8s and no class features is just going to die because that's not just a bad character, that's not even an adventurer.


Already did dude. That's what the guantlet is. Tell me with a straight face that a normal barbarian could kill 5 chuuls, a hydra, and 10 sharks without taking any damage.

That wasn't directed towards you, nor am I going to take that seriously. It's an encounter that very heavily favours AOE.

And didn't everyone else in that encounter, including a Simulacrum of the Wizard, take damage? What's your point here besides hiding at range behind allies is helpful?


But yeah, martial subclasses are useful talking points because they give you everything the martial class has for very little cost. Extra attack is a good feature, bladesinger gets a better version of it. This isn't to say Bladesingers are much better than evokers or abjurers or whatever, but its illustrative that the best martial features are very easy to poach.

Martial subclasses don't give you everything. Martials are not just some profs and Extra Attack. (and on the note of poaching, you can get a lot of 1st/2nd level spells with nothing but feats and racials).


Not all martials get heavy armor either, what's your point? Clerics are martials with respect to AC, unless someone is picking up defense style and plate.

At this point in the reply I wasn't sure what 'top notch' AC was and you were pointing specifically at Clerics, so I thought maybe heavy armor.


Black Bear is still a massive chunk of free HP if you're actually worried about dying from damage, which almost no druids actually are.

Err, it's 19HP for your entire action, and those Druids don't get it until 4th level? Giving you 11 AC in the process. It kind of feels like a hairier version of Tomb of Levistus. Sure that could save you, but it's hardly impressive or a lot, and you're giving up the spellcasting and AC that you've been proclaiming are so great?


Most barbarians give up AC for damage
Most Monks never get to 19 AC (though they can quickly with certain builds)
Only S&B fighters ever get past 19 AC consistently.
Rogues rarely beat 17 AC without help.

yes, 19AC is top notch. Extreme hyperspecialists like forge clerics and paladins and S&B eldritch knights do get higher of course, but those are casters. AC is cheap and casters have more ways to boost AC if you care about it. The slightly higher baseline AC of (some) martials isn't really that large of an advantage.

Let me be clear, when I say I don't regard it as 'top notch' I'm talking about the grand scheme of AC. This was not a blanket statement that all martials have better AC, this was me not regarding medium armor and shields as 'top notch.' On the weekend I played a Thri-kreen that used a shield and TWF, AC of 19 at 3rd level with no comprises. That's something I would consider top notch. Is that specific? Yeah, top notch should be something that specialists are hitting, not anyone that grabs the second most abundant armor prof.


The comparison between a SR resource like wildshape/Life Cleric CD and second wind is not one that's at all favorable to second wind.

Your aversion to actually walking through what these differences look like in

This doesn't look like a complete reply, so I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. I guess you're taking the durability comparison to specifically Wildshape and one specific CD vs Second Wind. No idea why you're doing that, of course both of those things are more individually more significant that Second Wind, seeing as I don't think I ever said that Second Wind was better... good strawman I think?

I mean you're comparing a combination of subclass and core class feature against Second Wind, what are you expecting?



Sure you can choose less efficient spells for more power / explosive potential, but that doesn't change that you can get very very consistent value out of a longer-lasting spell like spiritual weapon or heat metal.

Again, when was the last time you saw a druid run out of slots? It doesn't happen. Their spells are almost too efficient.

A couple weeks ago, there's a Stars Druid in one of my games. And at the early level end of things? (currently 11th level, they started at 3rd) she ran out of spells a lot. And that's a subclass that gets free castings.


Damn, yeah, they have an advantage of 1-2 hp per level and 1-2 damage per round in melee against specific mid-AC target. Truly a crushing advantage. :smallyuk: Absolutely nothing other than marginally higher HP and damage matters, after all.


...I said I don't see a compelling point and you read that as 'spent Barbarian crushes spent Cleric!'? And I get the whole 'not significant difference' thing with a Fighter vs a Cleric, but seriously? You don't consider the difference between a Barbarian's HP total and a Cleric's significant? It's likely at least 10HP at 4th level (but likely 14 or more) and you just pointed to 19 as a 'massive chunk.'


Being able to choose between weapon attack, toll the dead, and sacred flame already does a lot to equalize the damage, especially because most of this flexibility exists at range. Cases where rituals like silence or spells like guidance come up are not edge cases - they're very normal parts of dungeoneering.

Sacred Flame is terrible damage and Toll the Dead also kind of highlights something else (pointing to certain spells that are above the curve, a fair amount of which are splat), but sorry you also just created a stacked comparison. But personally I'd take being able to just huck a javelin if you can't close to melee *shrug.*


Its cast by the simulacrum. No precasting allowed except for stuff with 8 hour duration or greater.

And how is this "skewed toward PCs"?

Ahh missed the Simulacrum cast, but as for skewed to PCs (from what I saw/heard, not saying it's 100% the case):

- Initiative is rolled when the mummies are 85 ft. away. There's literally no way for them to even Dreadful Glare on their first turn if they won initiative.
- The familiar goes on the Wizard's turn for convenience. Yeah that's convenient, it's also not RAW and makes the Harengon Wizard's high initiative even more impactful.
- The familiar uses Dragon's Breath against the Water Weirds, despite them not acting yet and them (as per narration) being invisible. Based on what was said there was no reason to do that besides them being visible on the tabletop.
- The encounter is hordes of creatures that favours AOEs. In a test for a Hexvoker.
- Whilst a Hexvoker is being tested, they're hiding behind martial sidekicks...
- Gonna take a stab in the dark that it's another case of Simulacrum that's fully charged and uninjured, but that's to be expected at this point.
- Simulacrum doesn't seem to be rolling at disadvantage against the invisible Water Weirds they just know are there
- Warrior sidekick gets advantage from Expert Help against the Invisible Water Weird
- Magic Missile against invisible Water Weirds
- Mummies are not only at extreme range, but also don't really try and close? They can do Rotting Fist and Dreadful Glare in the same turn, limiting them to only DG is a serious debuff.
- Mummies glare at the Sidekicks, who have done jack compared to the familiar
-Sharks disperse instead of surrounding the simulacrum...
- The design seems to show the enemies before they can act: starting so far away, sharks and chuul having to dash on their first turns. Heck,the Wizard even seems to have forewarning before the sharks even turns up as they move away. I mean, the Hydra spends two entire turns doing nothing but dashing.

The encounter sounds a lot scarier than it actually was.

[DruidAlanon]

When have I moved goalposts? If I have it was a genuine mistake, I just don't know when this occurred.


Just a general feeling from the back and forth that I've read. That's why I thought it'd be better to discuss based on same assumptions/scenarios the effectiveness of each class.



Yup, but since it's omitted (again) from talking about the Druid side of things, having an AC of 11 in melee is worse than just getting 'extra 64 HP,' as those hit points are going to get whittled away faster and more consistently.


I agree of course that AC 11 is low. Let's examine a scenario. Without loss of generality, 1 melee enemy attacks with +6 and does 1d10 + 4 damage.

Druid: Against 11AC he hits 75% of the time for 9 damage per hit (plus the crit chance) for a total of 7dmg/round on average. Against 68HP (2 Brown Bear wildshapes) he needs 9.7 i.e. 10 rounds to eat through the 2 wildhsapes and bring the druid to full HP; and then around 3 rounds to bring the Druid to 0 (Assuming 16AC and 16HP). So 13 rounds to kill the Druid. Note that in the meantime, and for the first 10 rounds while wildshaping, the druid will deal in total 99-110 dmg on average, depending on initiative, and then another 10 dmg over 3 rounds with thorn whip for a total of roughly 120.

Fighter: Against 18AC and 22HP (from the stats of your fighter below), the enemy hits only 40% of the time for the same damage on average per hit, for a total of 3.85 dmg/round. He needs 5.7, i.e. 6 rounds to bring the fighter to 0HP.

13 vs 6. Druid is more than twice more resilient than the fighter, and the latter will need several levels to catch up (which he does, and eventually surpasses Druid after lvl 5 roughly). So, even though I do agree that the higher AC does help, still overall Moon Druid early on is much, much stronger than the fighter. Also, note that at least in this ridiculous but I think instructive example where the battle lasts until one character dies, the Druid outdamages fighter as well. I haven't calculated action surge impact etc but I doubt the fighter will reach the benchmark of 11dmg/round on average and will reach 66dmg in 6 rounds, let alone 120 in 13.






At 2nd level a Moon Druid is better in this situation, hardly surprising seeing as it's the level they have their subclass and the Fighter doesn't, whilst being able to commit long rest resources. So yeah, 2nd level the Druid wins.

...1st level? 2 spell slots, no Wildshape and (going off your example) 10 HP.

An aside: I'm not sure why you'd choose Thornwhip as an example here. It'd just pull them out of the Entangle (and closer to you) for low damage. I also don't like the forum practice of just assuming free Goodberries, but that feels like a losing battle.


True. There are ways to make a strong 1lvl druid (e.g. Tortle + shillelagh). Not worth it over the long run though, imo. But for a lvl 7 max build, maybe still worth considering?

Regarding Thorn Whip, my reading of the cantrip is that you can pull them for 10ft max, but there's no min. ie you can pull them for 0ft. If the pull necessarily occurs, it can be 1ft, which is neglible. But RAW I understand that one can choose not to pull the enemy.



You seem to have taken this as spent Wildshapes are useless, my point was that you can't always assume that both Wildshapes are available for combat purposes, especially not when another common thing used for Druids is how good it is for scouting. That's having nature cake and eating it too.

But sure, I'll take the not-so-controversial stance of the Fighter can be a better scout because they'll likely have a better Stealth score than some random animal. Wildshape scouting often assumes that because you're an animal you won't be bothered or noticed, but also ignores that things eat animals, the presence of an animal in that location can be weird, and the ability to turn into animals with magic isn't usually a top secret super power.

The notion of short resting constantly, which is what you're touching on, is not a play style I either like or encourage, but applies to a lot of classes, Fighter included. Used Second Wind and Action Surge last fight? Short rest between every encounter!


I agree with everything here. Just note that you can pick non-edible wildforms and in general pick a wildform wisely (pun intented) depending on environment so that nobody will get alert.

I agree that abusing short resting can be problematic for some (even though I don't really see how) but short resting by design is meant to be used often. You are expected to use your abilities that recharge at least 1 more time over a day.



I'm beginning to see a pattern of you taking aspects of my argument out of context. I gave examples of low CR creatures that you might expect to encounter, all of which not only have ranged attacks, but said ranged attacks aren't a downgrade from melee.

I did this because Spike Growth was being painted much stronger that it typically is, when many enemies can proc concentration saves from a distance without hurting themselves.


Apologies. I misunderstood your point as I though you were suggesting that in such a situation somehow a moon druid is inherently in trouble. Hence my incistence to put some common assumptions.

QUOTE=Dork_Forge;25714319]
But since you've taken that out of context and turned it into just how a Druid handles it, which was never the point, I'll say this: The Fighter fights them how the normally would. Since, y'know, the reason they were being discusses (concentration) isn't applying to most Fighters.[/QUOTE]

There are simple and complex classes and complexity doesn't always correlate with power (even though in this case it kinda does).




See now, I inherently disagree with this because it's either metagaming or assuming the PC just knows what those things are. I've had plenty of characters hit a target's resistances and immunities because they haven't encountered it in game before and that's a reasonable thing to do. This is somewhat tangential to the main point, it's just an assumption that I firmly disagree with.

Is it metagaming? A very easy way around, which by the way I think is proper RPing, is that if a druid has a mentor, he automatically knows the mentor's wildshape. So if your mentor is an 8lvl or 10lvl Druid that trained you as a druid, he showed you all his wildshapes while discussing nature, animals, experiences from his trips, and so on. If your circule has strong ties (which is not uncommon in certain settings and even in "real life" druidry back in celtic times), it wouldn't be uncommon to assume that twice per year (eg during equinox) or even once every 4-5 years, it does really matter, you meat up and exchange knowledge regarding plans, nature, animals, etc. So Druids over a day (or a night over a Full Moon) can show each other their different wildshapes and teach them the new forms. Even if the player was still a 0lvl druid trainee during this meeting, he still managed to see a few new forms here and there. Again, learning by showing and via oral traditions is historically correct regarding druids so I don't think this is metagaming or a wild assumption.

For what's worth, my DM think in similar lines with you. I disagree, maybe your grand grand mentor (your mentor's mentor's mentor) once encountered a polar bear, this knowledge live via oral tradition and you know the animal even though you never encountered it. I'm not saying you should have endless options but even from an evolutionary point of view, strong wildshapes would survive across generations of druids.



But sure, since you want a firm comparison, put forward a Druid build (with spells chosen), I'll put forth a Fighter and we'll see how they do.

Race: Thri-Kreen
Subclass: Battle Master (Trip Attack, Riposte, Tactical Assessment)
Background: Urchin
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 10
Skills: Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Perception, Athletics
Fighting Style :TWF

Level 1: 13 HP 18 AC
Level 2: 22 HP 18 AC + Action Surge
Level 3: 31 HP 18 AC + Maneuvers
Level 4: 40 HP 19 AC (ASI Dex +2)
Level 5: 49 HP 19 AC + Extra Attack
Level 6: 58 HP 20 AC (ASI Dex+2)
Level 7: 66 HP 20 AC (Rogue level: Sneak Attack, Expertise in Stealth and Athletics)

This build is a Fighter that:

- Functions as a tank thanks to high AC and high HP
- Can swap between melee and ranged effectively
- Has excellent Stealth thanks to be Dex focused, prof (later Expertise) and Chameleon Carapace
- Fairly good initiative
- Good Tier 1/early Tier 2 damage thanks to Secondary Arms allowing a shield and TWF, plus Action Surge and Maneuver damage, later Sneak.
- Good at scouting (excellent Stealth, good Perception, Thieves' Tools, Telepathy if scouting as a group, darkvision, able to add a d8 onto Invs, Hist, and Insight checks)

It doesn't cover absolutely every base, but it does some things excellently, some things very well and is okay-good at a lot. A straight Battle Master here also works, but I thought throwing a Rogue level would be interesting.



Good idea, I'll do it tomorrow! Nice build btw.




A reminder that the original criticism of me suggesting a Fighter for 7th level was that 'it only solves DPR problems' and then how a Druid is amazing. This Fighter has level appropriate damage, whilst also being above average in durability and being able to contribute at various parts of the game outside of combat.

A Druid is certainly a good option, I just disagree that the Fighter is only solving DPR problems, and that the Druid is amazing in all regards. The Moon Druid in particular has concessions that it needs to work around, people just tend to hand wave them and then wax lyrical about the buckets of hit points and damage they can do 'as well as be a full caster.'

Artificers are also epic in this level range, but I like the blank canvas of the Fighter and unique situation of getting two ASIs.


I agree with the main message. And my personal anecdotal experience is quite similar. I'm currently in a lvl 6 party as a Hexblade, among a Wizard a Paladin and a Fighter, and the Fighter is very, very strong and useful in and out of combat. I do not think taht the fighter is only solving DPR problems. If nothing else my Hexblade is closer to this description. The Moon Druid does not win DnD (it kinda does at lvl2 but that's fixed in a couple of games) but I do think overall is probably the strongest class early on. In my first post of this thread I suggested a Shepherd Druid for a lvl 7 build but Moon is not too far behind and he is the strongest early one.

[Unoriginal]

Sure, just state the level range, character creation rules, and the rest of the party (or would you like a single character challenge or a full party?).

I apologize for how long it took, my computer was starting to melt so I had to use my phone to post.

To go with the OP, the PC has to be lvl 7. They face the challenge solo due to the circumstences described under Spoiler.

Point buy or standard array, all the content of all the official 5e books are allowed (aside from PC does not beimg allowed magic items, boons, charms, curses and the like.

The situation:




PC and their group have successfully stolen the MacGuffin from the BBEG's base while said BBEG wasn't home. Sadly, PC fell from the group's vehicle during the escape and got knocked down to 0 HP by the underlings after the landing.

PC awakens 4 hours later, with only 1 HP, after being taken to a lighthouse near the base, which will serve as the PC's cell until the BBEG arrives and deal with them... which they'll do in about 1 hour max.

The lighthouse is a three-stories-high (ground floor, middle floor, top floor) circular stone building standing next to a cliff, with only one metal-reinforced wooden door on the ground floor (currently locked). There are no windows, but the top floor is 360 degrees open (aside from the four pillars holding the roof). Each floor is 45 ft diameter, and connected by steep stairs (only wide enough for 1 Medium humanoid). The ground level stair is in front of the door, on the opposite side of the room, and the stair connecting the middle and top floors is just above the door. It is nighttime, and the light sources are: two candles on ground floor, one lantern in the middle of the middle floor, and a large brasero in the middle of the top floor, its light visible from far away. The brasero lights the top floor brightly, and light dimly on a 35ft radius further tan that.

PC is blindfolded, gagged, manacled (standard PHB manacles), with the manacles chained to the wall (standard PHB chain), and with their fingers bandaged together to prevent complex movements. The blindfold and the gag takes one free item interaction to remove if at least one hand or equivalent is free, removing the finger bandages takes an action. If the PC is identifiable as a species known for having mouth-based powers (Dragonborns' breaths, Lizardfolk' devastating bites, etc), the underlings have wrapped their jaws shut with more bandages, preventing the use of said powers until it's removed (which takes an action to do). If the PC possesses an identifiable natural weapon (horns, claws, etc),,the underlings have tied bags filled with leather scraps around the appendage (reducing its damages to 'ordinary unarmed strike', and taking a free item interraction to remove) and have chained it to the wall with a short (~1ft) chain. Extra limbs (wings, prehensil tails, etc) that are visible while the PC is unconscious are similarly chained to the wall.

The PC has been thoroughly searched and stripped of any equipment they may have possessed (then had some rags put on them for modesty).

MC is currently under watch by two Xvarts (Volo's), who are drunk thanks to finding the previous lighthouse keeper's stash of booze (treated as the Poisoned condition) and not paying much attention as they sit on either side of the lantern, and a Bat (MM), who was instructed by the Xvarts to keep guarding the PC while they relaxed.

On the top floor, two Scouts (MM) keep a lookout, one watching the sea while another watches the land, both instructed to fire their bows at anything resembling an animal coming into the range of their weapons (a fact the Xvarts warned the local bats and rats about) as well as any unidentified invisible creature they perceive, accompanied by a Duergar Mind Master (Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, but with Common as a third language) whose attention is mostly focused on the stair and the prisoner, as they expect their services to be required to deal with PC.

On the ground floor, three Hobgoblins (MM), a Xvart Speaker (Volo's, speaking Common) and a Bat try to relax, but still keep an ear out in case something happens above them, as they do not wish to incur the BBEG's wrath. Outside of the door, an Hobgoblin Iron Shadow (Volo's) wearing a mask looking like a grinning bearded devil is waiting for the BBEG, with the key for the front door and the key for the manacle in their possession.

Anyone in the lighthouse can hear someone speaking or making noise without issue from one floor appart (so top floor can hear middle floor, middle floor can hear both top floor and ground floor, etc), and everyone can hear shouts/loud noises from any floor. The Iron Shadow can distinctly hear shouts/loud noises from top floor, and in a muffled manner from ground floor.

NPC behavior guidelines:

Bats:

Both Bats stay on the ceiling, fleeing if they think they're in danger. The middle floor Bat keeps its senses on the PC, and reacts to any movement from the PC or around the PC by shouting for the Xarts' attention. They react the same for any action they can link to the PC (ex: if the PC's appearance suddenly changes, if they disappear, or if visible magical energy emanates from them, even if they're not physically moving). They do not react by shouting to things they can't identify as linked to the PC. The Bat on the ground floor is keeping its senses focused on the stairs, and shout to warn every time they can perceive anyone or anything going through that path, be it to go up or down (including if it's someone they know to be an ally doing so in plain view, as the Bat got the concept of the task at hand but not the subtleties).

Drunk Xvarts:
The two drunk Xvarts are ill-disciplined and not the sharpest spoons in the ice cream parlor, but they're not without low cunning and a certain practical (if sometime misguided) perspective when it comes to problem-solving (in contrast to their whimsical problem-making). Furthermore, they are keenly aware they are guarding a scarily powerful individual on the behest of an even more scarily powerful individual (drinking some booze to sooth their nerves seemed like a good idea at the time, and since it seemed like an even better idea after doing it they kept doing it until the bottle got empty), and that their survival depends on the PC not escaping.

If they notice the PC moving or something strange happening (of if the Bat warn them of such), they shout to warn the rest of the lighthouse (even if only the Bats and the Xvart Speaker can understand them) as they get up from their chairs, go to be on the left and the right of the prisoner, and whack said prisoner until they're back to unconsciousness (choosing to be nonlethal). If they both miss with their first attacks, or if none of their attacks seem to KO the PC, one of the Xvarts use the Help action as the other attack. If the PC manages to break loose and attempts to go away, both Xvart attempt to get to them and shove them to the ground, and if the PC gets on the ground attack them there (unless the PC has become too big for shoving, in which case they just attack the PC, likely with their slings).

If the PC disappears (or seems so) without the Bat or the Xvarts being able to tell were they went, both shout to warn the rest of the people in the lighthouse of that fact, and one of the Xvarts goes to where the prisoner was chained and attempts to strike and poke at the space with their short sword, then try to wave the sword around the room to make sure no one is there, while the other stays near the center with their loaded sling in hand and use the Ready action to attack anything other than one of their allies that moves or appears within the Xvart's perception range.

The Xvarts will always use Low Cunning to bonus action Disengage away from the enemy if they can, unless they're sure the PC has been neutralized or if doing so would mean letting the PC escape. However, they prefer getting out of the way but close enough to attempt an Opportunity Attack than stand in the PC's way, hoping the PC would hesitate between attacking them or letting themselves open while fleeing.

The intense stress from the situation causes the Xvart to sober up at the end of the second turn after they notice the PC is awake/the PC has disappeared, ending the Poisoned condition on them.

Xvart Speaker:

The Xvart Speaker translates anything the other Xvarts or the Bats say into Common, and anything said in Common by the others into Abyssal, shouting if the one they're translating is shouting. If they're told something is happening on the middle floor, or if they notice something is amiss (ex: an unidentified noise), they go up the stair as fast as possible. If the PC is attempting to escape, the Speaker attacks them when they can, attempting to shove them if the PC looks like they're fast enough to get out of the lighthouse on this round (and otherwise using their shortsword).

If the Speaker is warned of the PC's apparent disappearance, or notices it, they will take the Use an Item action to tear open a bag of flour and take the time to spread the content around in clouds of flour, starting with the floor between the two stairs and where the PC was chained up, then moving to the rest of the floor and finally the walls, figuring that it'll help noticing something invisible in that area.

Scouts:

The two scouts do not leave the top floor unless ordered to by the Mind Master. If they hear a warning from their allies or a commotion beneath, they move to stand on either side of the stair, 10ft from it, and Ready action to attack anything they can perceive except an ally who identifies themselves as such while raising empty hands above their heads that gets up the stairs (or simply use this opening).

While fighting, their favored tactics is to stay far enough of each other that a single opponent can't try to melee with the both of them at once, the one being targeted in close quarter doing their best to get out of that situation while the other fires at their opponent.

Duergar Mind Master:

If warned that the prisoner is waking up or disappeared, or if they notice a commotion below, the Duergar Mind Master goes partway down the stairs to block as much of the path as possible, dagger in hand. If a fight is going on, they will attempt to Mind-Poison Dagger then Mind Mastery on the PC if they're close enough, or just Mind Mastery otherwise, ordering the PC to move 10ft into the direction that is the most perilous for them (in particular if that ends up with the PC surrounded by a group of enemies) or the furthest away from an escape point if there is no danger.

If the PC has seemingly disappeared, they will scan the room using their truesight and WIS (Perception), first from their spot on the stairs and then from the center of the room if the first was not enough, and if it still wield no result they'll do the same to the bottom floor. They inform their allies of what they're doing all the while, giving orders dispassionately if they find nothing and being extremely smug if they do.

If the PC shows up on the top floor unexpectedly, the Mind Master shouts to their allies of the fact, then attempts to attack the PC and use Mind Mastery on them. If the PC is within 10 feet of the brasero, the Mind Master orders them to move into the fire. If not, the Mind Master orders them to

Hobgoblins

If the Hobgoblins hear that PC has woken up or disappeared, or hear something suspicious, two of them get up the stairs while the third stays in the middle of the room, relaying any information they learn to the Iron Shadow outside, and Readying an action to attack anything that goes down the stairs (or stairs opening) without identifying themselves as one of their allies while raising their empty hands above their head.

On the middle floor, the Hobgoblins object to the Xvarts roughing up the PC if the PC is still bound and still conscious when they arrives, as they hope to impress the (supposed) hopelessness of the situation on PC and obtain a formal surrender while they all wait for the BBEG. If the PC is not bound, the hobgoblins attack, favoring attacking the PC if they can identify them.

If the PC has disappeared, the Hobgoblins are not sure how to contribute, but one of them provides the Help action to anyone who is currently searching (prioritizing the Mind Master if several people are doing so) while the other walks around the room in a regimented fashion, trying to see if they can walk into anything that wouldn't be otherwise perceivable.

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow:

If the Iron Shadow hears that the PC is escaping by going to the ground floor, or has disappeared, they will trust their ally, use Silent Image to hide the door (making it appear like just like any other stone wall section to the people inside the room), attempt to stealth next to the door and get ready to attack whoever or whatever goes through it.

If they hear the PC is going to the top floor, however, they will cast Expeditious Retreat, climb the lighthouse, and multiattack the PC as directly as possible.


The PC's goal is: escape from this lighthouse alive, before the hour is up and the BBEG arrives.


- What's the height of the lighthouse?

About 35ft.

- What action economy would be needed to undo the all the additional stuff (blindfold, gag, bandages)?

I would say for this kind of restrains, the blindfold and the gag are a free item interaction each (provided you have at least one hand free or equivalent), and the bandages take a full action (but taking said action removes it on both hands at once).

- Can you... kick the manacles?

You can, but everyone in the tower would notice something is up (or more) unless the sounds can be completely cancelled or drowned.

- Is it possible to work the blindfold down discreetly whilst restrained?


For that particular restraining and blindfold, I would say "not unless you have some kind of 'move an item without moving yourself' power".

- For Lay on Hands and Healing Hands, can you just touch your other hand (or same hand even) to apply the self heal?

I would rule that the same hand wouldn't work, but any other part of your body would.

- The PC is at 1 HP, do they have all their other resources?


Yes, although if you'd rather have less it is not a problem.

- Is your gear stored somewhere in the lighthouse?

No, the equipment you had is currently being examined in a different location, as your foes are hoping they can use it to start providing some answers to the BBEG when they start demanding to know who took the MacGuffin and where they are.


1. How long ago did we do the heist? Mostly asking WRT Mage Armor: do the builds with Mage Armor still have it up (it has a duration of 8 hours so if the heist started under 4 hours before the capture, it should still be up) or has it expired?

The group fleeing the heist's site was 4 hours ago, and the heist started 1 hour prior to that.

However, the BBEG's underlings definitively had someone use Detect Magic and Dispel Magic until everything that was dispellable was dispelled before bringing the PC to the lighthouse.

2. How would you rule the interaction between Wild Shape and manacles? Manacles say they can only bind small or medium characters so if the PC turned tiny or large, that probably means he'll just slip out. What about turning into a small or medium creature though? Would the manacles stay on or slip off? I don't think they'd disappear into Wildshape since they're bound to the building and thus aren't strictly a worn item though that's also a murky topic.

I would rule that you can slip out of manacles if you become smaller, however the manacles stay on if your new form is the same size as the one they locked the manacles on, and you simply cannot become bigger.

3. If the character has a familiar, did he put have it in the extradimensional space provided by the spell or is it dead?

I would say the Familiar was out of the extradimensional space before the PC was captured, and had to flee with the rest of the group, which is currently is far away and trying to make the underlings pursuing them lose the trail.

But you could make a run without the familiar and one with them, to see how much impact it has.

4. Does the character know the outside of the lighthouse? That is, was he conscious when he was brought in? Does he know how far the cliff is and what's underneath? In general, how is one to escape the island? It doesn't sound like just escaping the lighthouse should suffice; is there a boat at the shore? How far down is the shore? How large is the area atop the cliff around the lighthouse? Especially for characters with Dimension Door, this obviously matters a great deal.

The lighthouse is not on an island, it's on the shoreline of the mainland, a short distance away from the base the PC's group raided.

The cliff is about 80ft tall and ends up directly into the sea. There's a fishing village with a small harbor within 40min of walking from the lighthouse.

It can be assumed the PC's group scouted around the lighthouse during the preparations for the heist.

However, the PC was not conscious when brought in the lighthouse, nor have they been inside, so they would need to at least see the environment out of the lighthouse (from the top floor, for example, or if they go out by the front door) to be able to say where they are.

5. How would the enemies react to the character apparently disappearing? Like turning into a mite and crawling between some rocks or entering a Rope Trick unnoticed and pulling up the rope or Meld into Stoning or some such? Would they be able to figure out what kind of magic was used, would they just search around for an invisible PC, and would they assume the PC teleported away after searching the island?

6. How quickly do the monsters react? If the PC physically just removed the bandages on their hands, would they be attacked on the same turn or the next? That is to say, what's the information relay delay between the bat and the xvarts and how easily does the Mind Mage notice that the PC is doing something?


I'll answer 5. and 6. in the "how NPCs behave" section above (still WIP).

7. Does the lighthouse contain anything that would pass for a spell focus staff?

Nope.

8. What's the land material around the lighthouse? Would it count as loose earth for Mold Earth or is it more like some sort of rock or similar? What about the lighthouse itself? Are the walls Climbable if you have a Climb-speed?


The cliff where the lighthouse itself is is rock, but the ground becomes earth around 50ft inland, and outside of the dirt road leading to the lighthouse it does count as loose earth.

The stone brick walls of the lighthouse are climbable even without a climb speed.

9. Are the bats susceptible to being diplomancied/handle animaled by someone capable of speaking with them or other animals? Or are they fiercely loyal to the Xvart?

The Bats are susceptible to being animal handled/diplomacied (the latter by someone capable of speaking with them or other animals). They are not fiercly loyaly to the Xvarts, but obey them due to being fed daily and generously in exchange for their services, and that relationship existed for a good while. They also are at least initially hostile to the PC due to the Xvarts warning them the PC was a cornered, wounded predator who would attack the Xvarts if they managed to escape.


Alright, I think I added all the necessary informations. If any of you want any more info, I'm happy to add them to the Spoiler section.

[solidork]

Honestly, 7 is a sweet spot where just about everyone can do "their thing". It's narrower for some subclasses, but it feels like most builds have a situation or party composition where you could make a decent argument that they're one of the best choices - if only because your party isn't going to be all Shepherd Druids, or whatever.

[Corran]

To go with the OP, the PC has to be lvl 7. They face the challenge solo due to the circumstences described under Spoiler.
A relatively low profile 17th(!) level mastermind could be great here. It would be risky, especially if you dont know the bad guy well enough, but your capture could have even been intentional so that you can mislead the BBEG, or even lure them to a trap. Then again at these kind of levels, a proper BBEG should probably be able to do more than waste a clone. Still, the potential for trickery is too tempting. Which makes me think how rediculous it was to make soul of deceit a 17th level feature.

Never mind me, carry on.

[sambojin]

I will read all of this, eventually.

But yeah, *Schrodinger's Druid?*. It exists. It's a high Wis (old)Firbolg Land Druid. You do combat and lockdown, exploration and stealth, social (1 cast of Enhance Ability and you or anyone else is a social butterfly), instant blasting, movement, intrigue, buffing, healing, magical sustain, everything. You do have to pick your spells, but....

You have 17 bloody spells prepared out of your full list by lvl7, up-to lvl4 spells, and wildshape, and some short rest magic. And extra spell slots. It exists, in one of the supposedly weakest druid subclasses. And it works with any party.

It's not "uber powerful". But you can do almost anything on most days of most weeks in most campaigns in most parties.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The argument actually was that Moon is most powerful because they dominate 2-4 and have CA

Maybe your argument. A lot of folks, including me, are saying Shepherd. Moon being strong at 2-4 is ok, though those levels get less play even if we are including them in a 7th level optimization.
When people are saying CA is OP out of the box, it's clearly beyond broken when you see what a Shepherd can do with that spell. As I said upthread the Shepherd I was DMing was worth over 1000 extra hp on some adventuring days, and that was in addition to the 'core' hp provided by CA. And those summoned critters ignore BPS resistance. I honestly think people suggesting something other than Shepherd haven't played with an optimized one at level 6 and 7. Put them up against fiends or other foes where their CR is based on BPS resistance, magic resistance, and things other than having large numbers of hp, and it gets even more stupid. Ours could have soloed large sections of Descent into Avernus at those levels, and it wouldn't have even been difficult.

[Rukelnikov]

Maybe your argument. A lot of folks, including me, are saying Shepherd. Moon being strong at 2-4 is ok, though those levels get less play even if we are including them in a 7th level optimization.

Not mine, I was arguing against CA being powerful, Gingere said that Moons were very strong 2-4 and had CA for levels 5-7


When people are saying CA is OP out of the box, it's clearly beyond broken when you see what a Shepherd can do with that spell. As I said upthread the Shepherd I was DMing was worth over 1000 extra hp on some adventuring days, and that was in addition to the 'core' hp provided by CA. And those summoned critters ignore BPS resistance. I honestly think people suggesting something other than Shepherd haven't played with an optimized one at level 6 and 7. Put them up against fiends or other foes where their CR is based on BPS resistance, magic resistance, and things other than having large numbers of hp, and it gets even more stupid. Ours could have soloed large sections of Descent into Avernus at those levels, and it wouldn't have even been difficult.

Out of the box its power can't be defined, for me its worse than most other summon spells because of its unreliability, houseruled to let the player pick is broken no doubt.

[sambojin]

Honestly, CA is kinda broken. Just asking for warhorses or elks and getting just 4 of them, is fine. Even without magical attacks from a shepherd.

It's hard to not either houserule it, or banhammer it. The thing is, Summon Beast/Fey isn't as good, but it's still really good. Hell, Tidal Wave is good because you can minimise it.

Druids do have a lot of "not contentious" good spells, even without CA spam. I mean, even Moon Beam or Flaming Sphere is "ok'ish" at a lvl3 casting, with Thorn Whip or Produce Flame alongside it. Lvl4 summons + wildshape are nice too.

[Unoriginal]

This sounds interesting, what parameters?

I apologize for not including you in my previous post.

[Dr.Samurai]

I disagree. For basically any DM and any encounter design, a caster can fill the role a non-caster would in the same party while doing other stuff. It's hard to even imagine something where a non-caster could outperform a caster built towards the same goal sufficiently to make up for lacking the class resources.
Similarly, it's hard for me to imagine playing a game where there is "no need for martials", as you put it.

You could, of course. Power-wise said party would just be terrible and as soon as it's stuck dealing with anything rough it'll likely get TPKd.
Interesting. So you can do it, but also you'll get TPK'd. Which is it?

It has no AOE
Sure.

no information gathering/scouting beyond praying Rogue rolls well
Ok so a party of unarmored or lightly armored, dex heavy PCs with, presumably, Stealth proficiency, can't scout beyond a prayer. Got it. Glad we got that all cleared up.

no teleportation
Who cares?

no minionmancy
LMAO at this attempt to treat minionmancy as some necessity to be successful in the game. But yeah, sure, you got me there. The fighter, barbarian, rogue and monk can't summon a bunch of critters. Very true. I concede this point 100%.

In other words, if it's stuck dealing with 10 Veterans it's just going to have to try and eat through them one at a time while taking a ton of damage instead of just AOE CCing them, AOE damaging them, summoning 8 animals to bumrush them or whatever.
According to Kobold Fight Club, 10 Veterans is a Deadly encounter for four level 11 PCs, and just under a Deadly encounter for four level 12 PCs.

So you're implying here that four 12th level martials are going to struggle against a Hard (but practically deadly) encounter?

I'm not even sure I'd agree, but yeah, sure against 10 veterans they can't summon animals or teleport or throw a fireball.

I'm not sure this is the slam dunk you think it is. Yes, AoE would help take the veterans out even faster, sure. But it's not like the martials are going to struggle to take out veterans the way you're suggesting. If a fighter at this level lands 3 power attacks/shots on a veteran, it is dead that turn. The veterans save with a +2 bonus vs a monk's DC 16 Stun attack. If the fighter or barbarian missed with a power attack/shot, the rogue can finish them off with a Sneak Attack.

The veterans have less than even odds to hit the martials, assuming +4 or +5 Dex modifier (for archer, rogue, monk; barbarian likely also has 17 AC but will be Reckless Attacking). Depending on the layout, the veterans in front will provide cover to the martials against the ranged attacks from the veterans that can't fit on the frontline or go around. So AC 17 vs the veteran's attack mod of +5, 45% change to hit in melee. If they're using the crossbow because it's crowded, it's actually 35% chance to hit. Except they're probably trying to hit you through their allies, so that's cover, so it's 25% chance to hit. Meanwhile, the veterans on the frontline are getting stabbed and cut to death or stunned, etc.

If it's stuck getting past a lake of lava, it's better hope the fire elementals in the lake don't burn their rope, etc.
What rope? The party had to convince the salamander ferryman through Persuasion or Intimidation to ferry them across.

It doesn't have Pass without Trace to even sneak well
Ah. A common error these days. Take the absolute maximum that can be achieved, and then treat that as the standard for doing something "well". Got it. So now, a bow fighter, a rogue, a monk, and a barbarian with +2 in Dex and possibly Stealth proficiency can't sneak well. Got it.

nor anything to heal up aside from hit dice and like second wind and maybe Mercy Monk's hits so the damage it takes will stick
So far I haven't really mentioned subclasses. But you did say that a party can be built specifically to be all caster and cover all the roles.

Barbarians already half the damage they receive with Rage. Ancestral Guardian can also half the damage party members are taking from an enemy. And then Spirit Shield can reduce damage taken as well 1/round. Battleragers get free THP on top of Rage resistance. Beasts can heal with their Bite attack. Fighters can also get THP, or damage resistance, and have Second Wind 1/rest. Monks can use leftover Ki to heal themselves right before a short rest to minimize number of HD needed to heal. Long Death monks get THP. Mercy monks can heal, and can use their leftover ki to heal themselves or others (cheaper than Quickened Healing). Open Hand gets Wholeness of Body. Then there's healing potions and feats, or magic items.

and it has few ways to bypass too tough encounters (Shadow Monk could help with PWT and probably should but that makes the sustenance angle even rougher).
If PWT is a necessity, then grab it via race. Earth Genasi get it. But I don't think it is. I think this is you setting a standard to easily dismiss what martials can do. The truth is that it's not necessary. As an example, that veteran encounter you mentioned means a Passive Perception of 12 to notice the PCs sneaking by them. You think they need PWT to pull that off? And that's a deadly encounter.

There are lots of obstacles that just get much harder (to the point of potential impossibility or Extreme Improbability) without spells and this just pulls it to the logical extreme.
I guess I'll have to take your word for it. I mean... in the same way you can envision scenarios where magic is a MUST HAVE to win the day, I can imagine encounters where it isn't. So... the question then is... are you playing some sort of competitive e-sport D&D where the DM is testing the party's limits and throwing everything they can against you to see if you can survive or succeed? Or are you playing a campaign where the effort is collaborative and the DM understands that the party has certain limitations and isn't going to throw a lava lake encounter and say "You literally need a spell to beat this encounter" to a party of nonspellcasters?

Like... when our DM asked us to make characters for Against the Giants, I thought about various Greyhawk archetypes, the deities there, the history of the setting, etc. and then came up with a character. What I did not do was sit here and think about "what mechanical build can literally do anything that might be required in all potential situations, and do so without party assistance, and can beat anything the DM might try to throw at us?". That's an entirely different approach to the game.


Like, take a Shepherd Druid/Twilight Cleric/Bladesinger Wizard/Eloquence Bard and Battlemaster Archer/Arcane Trickster/Zealot Barbarian/Mercy Monk party. Both are pretty much top rated subclass for each class (aside from Bladesinger and Battlemaster, which are mere "good", but it's important to have a proper archer in the party). We have one party with a ton of sustenance, AOE, impregnable frontline, heavy CC, autosuccess on a ton of skills, etc. Then we have one with...the slightest bits of utility, a bit of sustenance, no AOE, very weak CC, etc. Take the latter party and it has superwatered down versions of the basics of the first party and none of the higher tier powers. Throw them through a gauntlet of rough encounters or a dangerous campaign on any level, be it 1, 5, 11, 15, 20 or whatever, and I can guarantee you that party #2 will die much, much, much more than party #1 provided that both are piloted somewhat competently.
Even if this is true... so what? Eventually your uber caster party will also start dying every encounter because they've run out of resources. A D&D campaign isn't a tournament or gauntlet with waves of enemies coming at the party over and over and over again to prove a point.


What does this mean?
Exactly what it says. People can dismiss the conversation as a foregone conclusion, but then when you have the actual conversation you read things like "Without PWT, you're unable to sneak well". Yeah, sure, if that's the standard you go by, then yeah, it's a foregone conclusion. If your standard is "magic is needed to do anything", then yes, not having magic means you will not be successful.

Its like... you have your basketball team at your local gym. Gary is a valued member, he helps out. If you replace him with LeBron though, the team does become more competitive. Now maybe you'd prefer to play with Gary, after all, your team isn't playing competitively, its just for fun. But that doesn't mean LeBron is a worse player than Gary, it just means your team doesn't care about who's 'best.'
Nice analogy, because it is something akin to this. It's like... a game designed that is basically pick-up basketball, and some people treating it like it's the NBA Championships. Like... hey, we're all playing fun characters and having a good time, and then the one player is like "yeah but... can you plane shift? what if we have to go to another plane? what if we have to fight underwater? can you handle that with only your own class features? what if we have to read something in an ancient forgotten language that there is no way you could possibly ever know or understand without magic? Could you do that? huh? I can, I can do anything. You guys aren't strong enough to be in my league"

It's like... yikes...

In fact, Lebron is a great analogy for this. Casters be like...

The reverse isn't true because there's LOADS of things that casters can do that martials can't, and nothing martials can do that casters can't. Its just that simple. I wish it wasn't, but it is.
So what though? In Descent to Avernus, you have to plane shift to Avernus in Tier 1. Guess what? Our bladesinger wizard couldn't do it because we were level 5 or something like that. But guess what else? We got there anyway. OMG... how? It's a mystery!

Can you play D&D with a martial only party? The answer is 100% yes.

The first encounter, shown in this vid has LOADS of huge, fast moving threats come in at a high level party. The unoptimized martials here flounder. They fail their saves, and slowly try to whittle down one target after another. Meanwhile the wizard is blowing up whole formations of enemies at once, negating the actions of multiple high-CR enemies, and dealing huge amounts of single-target damage. At one point the Wizard deals 96 damage with two second level spell slots.

Respectfully, I'm not seeing the conclusions you're drawing here. And this is another great example of the erroneous idea that "DMs and encounter design don't matter, it's just the build and the players". It's like... Find Familiar literally says Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. The owl's initiative is +1, so it is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that it would have gone anywhere near the init-optimized harengon's turn. By allowing it to act on the wizard's turn "for simplicity", the DM increased the impact of the wizard's optimized initiative by a whole other action. Is this caster supremacy? Is this the obvious foregone conclusion that casters are way better than martials?

Also, water weirds are invisible in water. They have 10s for Int, Wis, Cha. Why wouldn't they be hiding in the water? Why would they be "sloshing" around and drawing attention to themselves? So the owl gets to act on turn 1 for convenience, and the water weirds are sloshing around for... no reason indicated, and the owl gets to target them with breath weapon attacks right off the bat. Again I ask, this is caster supremacy at work? Or DM decision-making?

This entire encounter was "have a large group of enemies appear at a distance, so that Nuke has a target rich environment of things that can't actually attack him". And hey, that's nice. I enjoy seeing the templates go down of Nuke's AoEs and the failed saves and the enemies being taken out. That's awesome. But honestly, what was the point of the martials here? This is a large open area, with melee monsters, approaching from a distance, and Nuke unleashing havoc AoEs on them before they can reach him. If he had an item of flight or a racial fly power this would have been no different.

The rebuttal will be "That's the point, casters trivialize encounters". Again I would counter with the encounter design, the DM choices, and the fact that Nuke, in this scenario, would make any other character pointless. Throw in a shepherd druid or a twilight cleric but... what for? Why would they be needed? Nuke and his Simulacrum and the owl took almost everything out relatively easily. I don't see this standard as necessary or even as helpful. It's interesting and entertaining. No, I don't want to play in a game where the DM throws hordes of monsters that dash at us while the wizard obliterates them with all his spells.

[Unoriginal]

This entire encounter was "have a large group of enemies appear at a distance, so that Nuke has a target rich environment of things that can't actually attack him". And hey, that's nice. I enjoy seeing the templates go down of Nuke's AoEs and the failed saves and the enemies being taken out. That's awesome. But honestly, what was the point of the martials here? This is a large open area, with melee monsters, approaching from a distance, and Nuke unleashing havoc AoEs on them before they can reach him. If he had an item of flight or a racial fly power this would have been no different.

Could be interesting to see how the caster would have reacted to 6 mummies unearthing themselves and surrounding him.

[Dork_Forge]

I agree of course that AC 11 is low. Let's examine a scenario. Without loss of generality, 1 melee enemy attacks with +6 and does 1d10 + 4 damage.

Druid: Against 11AC he hits 75% of the time for 9 damage per hit (plus the crit chance) for a total of 7dmg/round on average. Against 68HP (2 Brown Bear wildshapes) he needs 9.7 i.e. 10 rounds to eat through the 2 wildhsapes and bring the druid to full HP; and then around 3 rounds to bring the Druid to 0 (Assuming 16AC and 16HP). So 13 rounds to kill the Druid. Note that in the meantime, and for the first 10 rounds while wildshaping, the druid will deal in total 99-110 dmg on average, depending on initiative, and then another 10 dmg over 3 rounds with thorn whip for a total of roughly 120.

This is... an odd comparison, but sure. It seems like you're both rounding the damage down (average of a d10 is 5.5), which is minor but that's a lot of rounds for minor to add up. You also seem to not be accounting for carry over damage when reverting.

Using your numbers, the bear should drop on round 5, carrying a point of damage over to the Druid. The second bear drops on round 10, carrying another point of damage over to the Druid. So 10 rounds will drop the Druid to 14, and then the Druid in 2, shaving an entire round off. No idea if the rounding thing would shave another off, but since you made this comparison it may as well be more accurate /shrug


Fighter: Against 18AC and 22HP (from the stats of your fighter below), the enemy hits only 40% of the time for the same damage on average per hit, for a total of 3.85 dmg/round. He needs 5.7, i.e. 6 rounds to bring the fighter to 0HP.

Presumably, the Fighter will Second Wind, for an average of 7.5 hit points, adding two more rounds.


13 vs 6. Druid is more than twice more resilient than the fighter, and the latter will need several levels to catch up (which he does, and eventually surpasses Druid after lvl 5 roughly). So, even though I do agree that the higher AC does help, still overall Moon Druid early on is much, much stronger than the fighter. Also, note that at least in this ridiculous but I think instructive example where the battle lasts until one character dies, the Druid outdamages fighter as well. I haven't calculated action surge impact etc but I doubt the fighter will reach the benchmark of 11dmg/round on average and will reach 66dmg in 6 rounds, let alone 120 in 13.


12 vs 8 (not factoring in the rounding thing), still more, but significantly less. Not bad, since I gave you a generalist Fighter where as the Moon Druid is the durability Druid.

And damage wise no, a 2nd level Fighter can't keep up. It's literally the most favourable level to compare the Moon Druid against the majority of other classes.


True. There are ways to make a strong 1lvl druid (e.g. Tortle + shillelagh). Not worth it over the long run though, imo. But for a lvl 7 max build, maybe still worth considering?

Tortle is nice for the AC, but Shillelagh is never going to be good damage. The benefit is mostly just using Wisdom, which washes with a martial using their primary stat for attack.


Regarding Thorn Whip, my reading of the cantrip is that you can pull them for 10ft max, but there's no min. ie you can pull them for 0ft. If the pull necessarily occurs, it can be 1ft, which is neglible. But RAW I understand that one can choose not to pull the enemy.

That's fair, I've never had someone use it and not want to pull.


I agree with everything here. Just note that you can pick non-edible wildforms and in general pick a wildform wisely (pun intented) depending on environment so that nobody will get alert.

I'm not sure we'll agree on that in particular, it's easy for any form to be suspicious in certain contexts, nevermind a prey or pest to be dealt with. That's getting a bit into the weeds though.


I agree that abusing short resting can be problematic for some (even though I don't really see how) but short resting by design is meant to be used often. You are expected to use your abilities that recharge at least 1 more time over a day.

Yes you are, my point was more that the thinking of 'okay scouted, now short rest to get my spend WS back,' just leads to resting excessively. I mean in this situation the Druid is the only one that has exerted anything, and it's just a single WS use. That can easily turn into the short rest equivalent of the five-minute adventuring day.


Apologies. I misunderstood your point as I though you were suggesting that in such a situation somehow a moon druid is inherently in trouble. Hence my incistence to put some common assumptions.

No worries, context is important to replies.


There are simple and complex classes and complexity doesn't always correlate with power (even though in this case it kinda does).

I... don't really understand why you said that in reply, and Fighters can get very complex in their decision trees, but sure.



Is it metagaming? A very easy way around, which by the way I think is proper RPing, is that if a druid has a mentor, he automatically knows the mentor's wildshape. So if your mentor is an 8lvl or 10lvl Druid that trained you as a druid, he showed you all his wildshapes while discussing nature, animals, experiences from his trips, and so on. If your circule has strong ties (which is not uncommon in certain settings and even in "real life" druidry back in celtic times), it wouldn't be uncommon to assume that twice per year (eg during equinox) or even once every 4-5 years, it does really matter, you meat up and exchange knowledge regarding plans, nature, animals, etc. So Druids over a day (or a night over a Full Moon) can show each other their different wildshapes and teach them the new forms. Even if the player was still a 0lvl druid trainee during this meeting, he still managed to see a few new forms here and there. Again, learning by showing and via oral traditions is historically correct regarding druids so I don't think this is metagaming or a wild assumption.

For what's worth, my DM think in similar lines with you. I disagree, maybe your grand grand mentor (your mentor's mentor's mentor) once encountered a polar bear, this knowledge live via oral tradition and you know the animal even though you never encountered it. I'm not saying you should have endless options but even from an evolutionary point of view, strong wildshapes would survive across generations of druids.

The metagaming thing was in regard to working around the resistance/immunities of creatures, not Wild Shape choice, but I'll address that:

What you are talking about makes sense, especially since Druids irl were an oral tradition, pillars of their community, and essentially their own historians. However, what you're talking about is out of your hands as a player, that's a whole worldbuilding decision. Afterall, your circle could be just your immediate family, or even just you. And the notion of showing each other Wild Shapes, when you only have two per short rest, becomes an incredibly time-consuming task.

This doesn't even factor in simple stuff, like the DM saying 'no, dinosaurs aren't a thing in my fantasy world.'


Good idea, I'll do it tomorrow! Nice build btw.

Thanks!



I agree with the main message. And my personal anecdotal experience is quite similar. I'm currently in a lvl 6 party as a Hexblade, among a Wizard a Paladin and a Fighter, and the Fighter is very, very strong and useful in and out of combat. I do not think taht the fighter is only solving DPR problems. If nothing else my Hexblade is closer to this description. The Moon Druid does not win DnD (it kinda does at lvl2 but that's fixed in a couple of games) but I do think overall is probably the strongest class early on. In my first post of this thread I suggested a Shepherd Druid for a lvl 7 build but Moon is not too far behind and he is the strongest early one.

Strongest at 2nd I think would be pretty fair, especially since a bunch of classes don't even have subclasses and it's a powerful feature. Moon Druids being one of the strongest I also have no issue with.

Just grinds my gears when people disregard martials and act like they do nothing but hit things, and minimise what they can do and achieve. I don't believe in caster superiority, but in forums, caster bias is 100% alive and well.




Alright, I think I added all the necessary informations. If any of you want any more info, I'm happy to add them to the Spoiler section.

Some questions:

- What's the height of the lighthouse?

- What action economy would be needed to undo the all the additional stuff (blindfold, gag, bandages)?

- Can you... kick the manacles?

- Is it possible to work the blindfold down discreetly whilst restrained?

- For Lay on Hands and Healing Hands, can you just touch your other hand (or same hand even) to apply the self heal?

- The PC is at 1 HP, do they have all their other resources?

- Is your gear stored somewhere in the lighthouse?

And is this just throw a general character at it, or is it which can potentially do better in the challenge and tailor it?


Snip.

Cheers to basically all of that, and yeah the video encounter was skewed, it was basically just a lot of back slapping on the build. I like Unoriginal's idea, way more interesting.

[Unoriginal]

And is this just throw a general character at it, or is it which can potentially do better in the challenge and tailor it

The idea is to see who can do better, as the topic was specifically a caster built to handle X challenge vs a martial built to handle X challenge, but if you'd rather go with a general character it's still interesting data.

I'll edit my post to answer your other questions.

EDIT: Challenge edited.



Cheers to basically all of that, and yeah the video encounter was skewed, it was basically just a lot of back slapping on the build. I like Unoriginal's idea, way more interesting.

Thank you, though I admit the situation I wrote is also skewed.

[Gignere]

Similarly, it's hard for me to imagine playing a game where there is "no need for martials", as you put it.


Currently in a game without a “ martial”. Between the moon Druid, life cleric, ranger and myself (Bladesinger) we tank and do plenty of DPR to overcome encounters.

The ranger is not a normal ranger because it’s a wisdom build (highest stat) so I don’t really think of him as a melee. His pet is the tank and he uses cantrips and shillelagh for his schtick, and actually casts spells more often than my Bladesinger.

[Hael]

The caster vs martial thing is ultimately table and GM dependent. Even under exact mechanical RAW constraints without GM intervention.

Consider a simplified scenario for illustration. Take a 5e video game.. Solasta for instance. AI is pretty simple: Enemies rush to hit things close to them, but for the most part classes behave under 5e rules etc.

In that context, the question (which is better) martials or casters is entirely dependent on what other members you have in your party. What difficulty levels are you playing at? Are you playing point buy or something else? Are you playing casters optimally (selecting the right spells etc), are you building martials with advance metagaming knowledge of what items you will receive, etc.

Under most difficulty levels, the answer is pretty much unimportant, almost anything works. But there are definitely situations where you want a strong martial present so that you can buff them and they can go ham on the board (with modded power attack feats etc). Especially at early levels, there is definitely something to be said for their presence.

Of course on higher (unfair) difficulty levels, things drastically change in the other direction. There it's very clear (quantifiably so) that the optimal party makeup is 4 highly optimized multiclassed caster + gishes.

Now of course I am not saying real DnD is anything like this, and the situation is vastly more complex. However, my point is that I get the feeling that a lot of these discussions boils down to people arguing from experience, where one table is playing (in the analogy) on 'difficult' and the other is playing on 'unfair'. Neither side is wrong, its just completely different games and completely different metas.

It's like in chess, where some openings are almost guaranteed wins at the 1300 ELO rating and probably the best openings to play, but take that same thing at the 2000 lvl, and its simply an instant loss.

[Gignere]

The caster vs martial thing is ultimately table and GM dependent. Even under exact mechanical RAW constraints without GM intervention.

Consider a simplified scenario for illustration. Take a 5e video game.. Solasta for instance. AI is pretty simple: Enemies rush to hit things close to them, but for the most part classes behave under 5e rules etc.

In that context, the question (which is better) martials or casters is entirely dependent on what other members you have in your party. What difficulty levels are you playing at? Are you playing point buy or something else? Are you playing casters optimally (selecting the right spells etc), are you building martials with advance metagaming knowledge of what items you will receive, etc.

Under most difficulty levels, the answer is pretty much unimportant, almost anything works. But there are definitely situations where you want a strong martial present so that you can buff them and they can go ham on the board (with modded power attack feats etc). Especially at early levels, there is definitely something to be said for their presence.

Of course on higher (unfair) difficulty levels, things drastically change in the other direction. There it's very clear (quantifiably so) that the optimal party makeup is 4 highly optimized multiclassed caster + gishes.

Now of course I am not saying real DnD is anything like this, and the situation is vastly more complex. However, my point is that I get the feeling that a lot of these discussions boils down to people arguing from experience, where one table is playing (in the analogy) on 'difficult' and the other is playing on 'unfair'. Neither side is wrong, its just completely different games and completely different metas.

It's like in chess, where some openings are almost guaranteed wins at the 1300 ELO rating and probably the best openings to play, but take that same thing at the 2000 lvl, and its simply an instant loss.

This is true of Pathfinder Kingmaker the video game as well the only builds that can solo their unfair mode are casters/gish builds. I mean it kind of shows how disparate casters versus non caster is in PFRPG. Pathfinder was coded to be with very faithful to the table top rules. Not identical but damn close.

[Dork_Forge]

Currently in a game without a “ martial”. Between the moon Druid, life cleric, ranger and myself (Bladesinger) we tank and do plenty of DPR to overcome encounters.

The ranger is not a normal ranger because it’s a wisdom build (highest stat) so I don’t really think of him as a melee. His pet is the tank and he uses cantrips and shillelagh for his schtick, and actually casts spells more often than my Bladesinger.

I get that some people disagree with this, but I count Rangers and Paladins as martials too, even if they lean on mental stat and their casting more.

- They get D10 hit die, a bunch of weapon and armor profs, and Extra Attack and Fighting Styles

- Regardless of spells, they will usually lean on attacking with weapons, even if Shillelagh is letting a Ranger use Wisdom for the attack stat.

It's also a little amusing that your anecdote also includes a Bladesinger, a martial subclass for Wizard. All caster parties used as examples in these discussions often has one or more casters with a martial subclass.

[Gignere]

I get that some people disagree with this, but I count Rangers and Paladins as martials too, even if they lean on mental stat and their casting more.

- They get D10 hit die, a bunch of weapon and armor profs, and Extra Attack and Fighting Styles

- Regardless of spells, they will usually lean on attacking with weapons, even if Shillelagh is letting a Ranger use Wisdom for the attack stat.

It's also a little amusing that your anecdote also includes a Bladesinger, a martial subclass for Wizard. All caster parties used as examples in these discussions often has one or more casters with a martial subclass.

If a martial subclass can do 80+% of a martial class without casting a spell. Pure martials really can’t do even 25% of what casters can do with spells. I mean doesn’t that pretty much imply there is a disparity between the classes even if it is just the subclass.

[Dork_Forge]

If a martial subclass can do 80+% of a martial class without casting a spell. Pure martials really can’t do even 25% of what casters can do with spells. I mean doesn’t that pretty much imply there is a disparity between the classes even if it is just the subclass.

What random numbers you've plucked out of the air there.

[Eldariel]

nteresting. So you can do it, but also you'll get TPK'd. Which is it?

You can do it but it's not good enough for a challenging game.


Ok so a party of unarmored or lightly armored, dex heavy PCs with, presumably, Stealth proficiency, can't scout beyond a prayer. Got it. Glad we got that all cleared up.

Without Pass without Trace you're basically just +10 behind the same party but with spells. Not to mention you don't have disposable minions like familiars or Arcane Eye or whatever to scout, so the scouts have to be put at the harm's way. It's just worse. There's no advantage to it over spells, just pure disadvantage.


Who cares?

You have to bypass a lake of lava inside a volcano to get to the McGuffin. There are fire elementals hurling fire at you and anything you might throw across the lake. Good luck. Honestly, teleportation is so good in so many scenarios it's almost a crime to bring PCs that don't have it.


LMAO at this attempt to treat minionmancy as some necessity to be successful in the game. But yeah, sure, you got me there. The fighter, barbarian, rogue and monk can't summon a bunch of critters. Very true. I concede this point 100%.

Minionmancy gives you a ton of disposable HP and damage. Also good for scouting. It's much better than not being able to do it.


According to Kobold Fight Club, 10 Veterans is a Deadly encounter for four level 11 PCs, and just under a Deadly encounter for four level 12 PCs.

Why would I limit myself to Deadly encounters? Your daily XP budget is 16000 on level 6 with 4 characters: let's call it a level 6 encounter, only a bit over your daily budget. Easily doable, and you can still continue thereafter.


So you're implying here that four 12th level martials are going to struggle against a Hard (but practically deadly) encounter?

I'm saying when you pull difficulty high enough casters will obviously have an easier time. Which is a trivial statement. Which means casters are better. Similarly, if you went through a series of multimonster encounters, martials would face more attrition and have to stop sooner.


I'm not sure this is the slam dunk you think it is. Yes, AoE would help take the veterans out even faster, sure. But it's not like the martials are going to struggle to take out veterans the way you're suggesting. If a fighter at this level lands 3 power attacks/shots on a veteran, it is dead that turn. The veterans save with a +2 bonus vs a monk's DC 16 Stun attack. If the fighter or barbarian missed with a power attack/shot, the rogue can finish them off with a Sneak Attack.

It's just a random encounter that might occur practically everywhere. And at any point. Again, game world doesn't scale down to PC levels: not all fights are going to be fair. And casters have way bigger chances of surviving unfair encounters than martials because their abilities let them deal with victory conditions other than "drop enemy to 0 HP".


What rope? The party had to convince the salamander ferryman through Persuasion or Intimidation to ferry them across.

No, there were no friendlies there. It's a check of your mobility, not convincing. See, sure you can modify an encounter so that martials could theoretically do it (though still worse than casters; skill checks are largely augmented by spells and little else), but that's not the same encounter anymore.

Here you are attempting to make things easier to support non-casters, because the encounter is too difficult for them. Casters don't need handholding. Which loops right back to the original point.


Could be interesting to see how the caster would have reacted to 6 mummies unearthing themselves and surrounding him.

Honestly? They only hit a Wizard on 18+ due to Shield, Breastplate and Shield and due to Res: Con he's very unlikely to fail the Con save, and he's an Evoker so he can just nuke on top of himself (Evoker Fireball one-shots Mummies typically due to their vulnerability) or Rabbit Hop away; that wouldn't have really mattered though they could've hurt the sidekicks. And Dreadful Glare makes the target immune to all rolls against the same ability so the Wizard merely needs to succeed one roll (though even failing doesn't matter as fear doesn't really affect casters and he can't fail by 5 or more; he has +6 to Wis saves and failing by 5 or more would require rolling 6 or lower). Really, physical threats are pretty minor to casters due to the existence of Shield and Silvery Barbs (though that wasn't used here).

And imagine the Wizard accidentally standing 30' aside from the place where the mummies are burrowed. They'd look mighty stupid when they unearth themselves and can't reach anyone (also, "burrowed mummies shallow enough to be able to get up as an action" probably warrants a Perception-check to notice).

[Corran]

Without Pass without Trace you're basically just +10 behind the same party but with spells. Not to mention you don't have disposable minions like familiars or Arcane Eye or whatever to scout, so the scouts have to be put at the harm's way. It's just worse. There's no advantage to it over spells, just pure disadvantage.
No arguments about pass without a trace, it really is a fantastic spell. But I just want to mention, that sometimes, there may be advantages in scouting in person over using a spell such as find familiar, arcane eye, etc. Because a good opportunity may present itself that you may be able to make the most of if you have a PC present. Maybe you can start a fire, or somehow cause enemies to fight each other or to go away, or push a lever, or tie someone's laces, or steal a key, etc. Or, my favourite, have dumb enemies chase you (oh the thrill!) only for them to get themselves into an ambush by the rest of your allies (who will jump off of trees, the ceiling, out of bushes, whatever (and yeah, maybe that's not how surprise works, so probably this is just a cool factor for some and not related to the discussion unless we make good use out of terrain). Not 100% sure if my examples are solid for proving my point (because you can still try to replicate some of these actions and reactions by using spells), but I think you can get the jist of it. Which is, that at the very least, there will be added value in edge cases (edge may be harsh, not really sure, or even objective about it, because I really find scouting in person to be fun but at the same time I am all for remote scouting beforehand if the party likes to discuss the findings). As far as I am concerned, these two dont overlap as much as I think it's hinted. My optimal ideal party should be able to do both to a good extent.

[DruidAlanon]

This is... an odd comparison, but sure. It seems like you're both rounding the damage down (average of a d10 is 5.5), which is minor but that's a lot of rounds for minor to add up. You also seem to not be accounting for carry over damage when reverting.

Using your numbers, the bear should drop on round 5, carrying a point of damage over to the Druid. The second bear drops on round 10, carrying another point of damage over to the Druid. So 10 rounds will drop the Druid to 14, and then the Druid in 2, shaving an entire round off. No idea if the rounding thing would shave another off, but since you made this comparison it may as well be more accurate /shrug


Presumably, the Fighter will Second Wind, for an average of 7.5 hit points, adding two more rounds.


Indeed, my bad. I was too lazy to multiply things by 5.5. Rounding the 0.5 dmg doesn't really change things (7.4 dmg taken /round and 4.075 dmg/round respectively). The second wildshape is down in 9.2 rounds (compared to the initial calculation) and the fighter in 5.4 (plus the second wind). Pressumambly druid can also heal 4.5 x2 and push his durability for 1-2 more rounds, but no need to use spell slots for this, so I'm happy with the numbers we found.



12 vs 8 (not factoring in the rounding thing), still more, but significantly less. Not bad, since I gave you a generalist Fighter where as the Moon Druid is the durability Druid.

Sure, but my conclussion is slightly different. Not bad for a spellcaster gish, where fighter is the melee class. This is still 34% more time alive compared to a damn fighter, with higher damage output overall, that can also do rituals, detect magic, heal, etc.




And damage wise no, a 2nd level Fighter can't keep up. It's literally the most favourable level to compare the Moon Druid against the majority of other classes.

Indeed. Damage doesn't scale with moon druid, that's why I like other wildshapes later on that offer something more than damage like spider's webb, grappling, etc.



Tortle is nice for the AC, but Shillelagh is never going to be good damage. The benefit is mostly just using Wisdom, which washes with a martial using their primary stat for attack.

Yes. For lvl 1 this is the best consistent damage available for Druid. I've made some comparisons for a spores druid I started playing, not much time ago in another thread, comparing thorn whipe, primal savagery, shillelagh etc. It takes several levels for shillelagh to become obsolete. I think that a druid with AC19, 10HP, attacking with +6 for 1d8+4 is an effective lvl1 druid. It's just not worth it for the next 6 levels vs vhuman.





I'm not sure we'll agree on that in particular, it's easy for any form to be suspicious in certain contexts, nevermind a prey or pest to be dealt with. That's getting a bit into the weeds though.


Yes you are, my point was more that the thinking of 'okay scouted, now short rest to get my spend WS back,' just leads to resting excessively. I mean in this situation the Druid is the only one that has exerted anything, and it's just a single WS use. That can easily turn into the short rest equivalent of the five-minute adventuring day.

Considering that this single WS use gives 50% of druid's durability it can be argued that it is indeed important for the whole party to take a short rest, if this is possible.




I... don't really understand why you said that in reply, and Fighters can get very complex in their decision trees, but sure.

Complex, as in, complex decisions to make before during and after battle (when and what spells to cast, when to wildshape, into what animal, conjure or not, and so on). Complex decision trees have most classes. Moon druid in particular does not have that many complexities in that respect. It's a fairly straightforward subclass when optimising as far as I can tell. It takes more effort to make a good fighter, but then fighting is straightforward. It takes less efort to make a good moon druid, but playing optimally a good moon may be more difficult. My 2 cents.






What you are talking about makes sense, especially since Druids irl were an oral tradition, pillars of their community, and essentially their own historians. However, what you're talking about is out of your hands as a player, that's a whole worldbuilding decision. Afterall, your circle could be just your immediate family, or even just you. And the notion of showing each other Wild Shapes, when you only have two per short rest, becomes an incredibly time-consuming task.

This doesn't even factor in simple stuff, like the DM saying 'no, dinosaurs aren't a thing in my fantasy world.'


Presumably training takes years so plenty of time to witness different wildshapes. Again, I'm not saying druids should know the whole animal kingdom, but potent wildshapes should be tought and encouraged to be used even if the budding druid is still not able to wildshape himself. Or at least that's how I'd approach this. Of course if druid is a hermit, self-taught etc that won't work.

Dinossaurs is a different thing. And my gut feeling is that WotC made dinosaurs particularly strong vs normal animals just for this reason, to allow druid's summoning/spellcasting scale as necessary in optimised parties, while conveniently allows DMs to ban dinosaurs in most games.



Strongest at 2nd I think would be pretty fair, especially since a bunch of classes don't even have subclasses and it's a powerful feature. Moon Druids being one of the strongest I also have no issue with.

Just grinds my gears when people disregard martials and act like they do nothing but hit things, and minimise what they can do and achieve. I don't believe in caster superiority, but in forums, caster bias is 100% alive and well.


Frankly, I don't think the situation changes qualitatively that much until the mellee classes get the second attack.

[Eldariel]

No arguments about pass without a trace, it really is a fantastic spell. But I just want to mention, that sometimes, there may be advantages in scouting in person over using a spell such as find familiar, arcane eye, etc. Because a good opportunity may present itself that you may be able to make the most of if you have a PC present. Maybe you can start a fire, or somehow cause enemies to fight each other or to go away, or push a lever, or tie someone's laces, or steal a key, etc. Or, my favourite, have dumb enemies chase you (oh the thrill!) only for them to get themselves into an ambush by the rest of your allies (who will jump off of trees, the ceiling, out of bushes, whatever (and yeah, maybe that's not how surprise works, so probably this is just a cool factor for some and not related to the discussion unless we make good use out of terrain). Not 100% sure if my examples are solid for proving my point (because you can still try to replicate some of these actions and reactions by using spells), but I think you can get the jist of it. Which is, that at the very least, there will be added value in edge cases (edge may be harsh, not really sure, or even objective about it, because I really find scouting in person to be fun but at the same time I am all for remote scouting beforehand if the party likes to discuss the findings). As far as I am concerned, these two dont overlap as much as I think it's hinted. My optimal ideal party should be able to do both to a good extent.

Yeah, sneaking up on enemy and blasting them to bits is definitely tactically valid. However, it doesn't really look at class: casters and mundanes can both do it. Casters have better tools to make it happen (PWT, Invisibility, Dimension Door are all great for getting the drop on people), but they do of course have other options as well. I believe those other options actually enhance implementing this tactic safely and efficiently.

It is a strategy greatly enhanced by data on enemy positioning, numbers, readiness, defenses, etc. This lets you sneak in in the probably safest way minimizing the risk of detection and maximizing the information you can gather as well as having your escape routes, enemy escape routes, etc. mapped out so you can plan how the encounter will likely go and thus plan accordingly. Which scouting would enable; then you would know if sneaking up in person to look for opening IS a good plan or not and how you should go about it. Going in blindly runs the risk of exposing yourself/approaching from a direction without cover/whatever. Thus it can put you in the harm's way (though a Druid wildshaped as a Spider under PWT and maybe Invisibility is quite unlikely to be noticed, that is true) and you probably do not want to initiate combat without your allies in close proximity anyways, meaning it's very risky without accurate data on the situation (you need to enable your allies to sneak in close enough to help you should you start the fight unless the target is weak enough that you can take them alone). Trying to get said data by putting yourself in harm's way...well, the problem is obvious, so even if I went this route, I'd definitely suggest first scouting with something safe and expendable and if that goes well, then attempting the sneak'n'grab.

[Dr.Samurai]

Could be interesting to see how the caster would have reacted to 6 mummies unearthing themselves and surrounding him.
Indeed. The response to your comment was "meh, Shield spell, pretty good saves, probably won't fail Concentration". Because the chances are statistically in the wizard's favor, it doesn't matter if we contemplate taking 6 Rotting Fists and 6 Gaze attacks. We should just assume none hit, no Frightened/Paralysis, Concentration definitely remains, etc.

Which begs the question... why did the scenario have every enemy start outside of multiple dashing distance?

Currently in a game without a “ martial”. Between the moon Druid, life cleric, ranger and myself (Bladesinger) we tank and do plenty of DPR to overcome encounters.

The ranger is not a normal ranger because it’s a wisdom build (highest stat) so I don’t really think of him as a melee. His pet is the tank and he uses cantrips and shillelagh for his schtick, and actually casts spells more often than my Bladesinger.
I'm not sure exactly how a party with a ranger is a party "without a martial". Do the martial features bring absolutely nothing to the party? When you say the pet is the tank, does that mean it's a beastmaster ranger? Do you consider that a spell? I'm not sure what to make of this.

When you say "tank", do you mean "fights in melee", or do you mean "can hold the frontline, can pass strength saves/checks, can pass con saves from poison attacks, can initiate combat maneuvers, etc."?

The caster vs martial thing is ultimately table and GM dependent.
100% agree.

If a martial subclass can do 80+% of a martial class without casting a spell. Pure martials really can’t do even 25% of what casters can do with spells. I mean doesn’t that pretty much imply there is a disparity between the classes even if it is just the subclass.
There is a disparity between the two types of classes. But one doesn't make the other worthless. One doesn't set the standard for how a game is supposed to be played, by which to measure the other.

You can do it but it's not good enough for a challenging game.
Your definition of "challenging game" is a game that requires magic to overcome.

Which is hilarious because if you can simply bypass a lava lake with teleport, it's hardly challenging.

Your standard of "requires magic" is completely arbitrary and solely there to prove the point you want to make. Yes, if an encounter REQUIRES magic to overcome, then only those with magic will overcome it. Once again I concede the point to you.

Without Pass without Trace you're basically just +10 behind the same party but with spells. Not to mention you don't have disposable minions like familiars or Arcane Eye or whatever to scout, so the scouts have to be put at the harm's way. It's just worse. There's no advantage to it over spells, just pure disadvantage.
I said a party of only martials can work without a caster. You said we can't stealth because we don't have PWT. Now you're saying "well, you're worse than a party with PWT". Sure, I agree. A +10 bonus is better than not having the +10 bonus. But the +10 bonus isn't necessary.

You have to bypass a lake of lava inside a volcano to get to the McGuffin. There are fire elementals hurling fire at you and anything you might throw across the lake. Good luck.
I'll take my chances. See you on the other side.

Honestly, teleportation is so good in so many scenarios it's almost a crime to bring PCs that don't have it.
Honestly, engaging with the environment and with monsters in D&D is so good in so many scenarios it's almost a crime to constantly use spells to bypass these encounters.

Minionmancy gives you a ton of disposable HP and damage. Also good for scouting. It's much better than not being able to do it.
For you. Some people like to be able to do these things from a distance. It's a preference. Others like to be a scout, and use Stealth, and their own Perception and Investigation. But again, that it can be done one way doesn't mean the other way sucks. The way you're speaking throughout these exchanges is to basically say that without magic, you suck. I can assure you, in my years of playing D&D, that is absolutely not true.

Why would I limit myself to Deadly encounters? Your daily XP budget is 16000 on level 6 with 4 characters: let's call it a level 6 encounter, only a bit over your daily budget. Easily doable, and you can still continue thereafter.
How many times will you inspire me to type "who cares?" lol. So I'm supposed to agree that martials are worthless because of some theoretical encounter where a DM throws a deadly level 11 encounter against a party of 4 level 6 PCs?

But by all means, show the encounter. Hopefully the veterans are doing more than Dashing around for two turns.

I'm saying when you pull difficulty high enough casters will obviously have an easier time. Which is a trivial statement. Which means casters are better.
It's an assertion, for sure.

Similarly, if you went through a series of multimonster encounters, martials would face more attrition and have to stop sooner.
This only matters in your mind. When we played through Avernus, through Waterdeep, through Against the Giants, we're not playing parallel to some caster only party that's applying pressure to us to beat a certain number of encounters within a certain amount of time. The game moves at the pace of the party, unless you're up against the clock. But even then I haven't seen a module that requires casters to get somewhere in time.

It's just a random encounter that might occur practically everywhere. And at any point. Again, game world doesn't scale down to PC levels: not all fights are going to be fair.
That is up to the DM. See how earlier you said that the DM didn't really matter, but now you're assuming a certain type of campaign?

And casters have way bigger chances of surviving unfair encounters than martials because their abilities let them deal with victory conditions other than "drop enemy to 0 HP".
So you say. In our Avernus game, our cleric went down and our wizard went down. More than once. My barbarian and our ranger never went down.

No, there were no friendlies there. It's a check of your mobility, not convincing. See, sure you can modify an encounter so that martials could theoretically do it (though still worse than casters; skill checks are largely augmented by spells and little else), but that's not the same encounter anymore.

Here you are attempting to make things easier to support non-casters, because the encounter is too difficult for them. Casters don't need handholding. Which loops right back to the original point.
So when you say "only the player and build matter", and then assume encounters that require magic to make your point, you don't see how the DM matters as well? The point of my response is that there can be other ways without magic to get across. You are insisting that magic is the only way, to show that magic is superior.

[DruidAlanon]

Race: Thri-Kreen
Subclass: Battle Master (Trip Attack, Riposte, Tactical Assessment)
Background: Urchin
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 10
Skills: Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Perception, Athletics
Fighting Style :TWF

Level 1: 13 HP 18 AC
Level 2: 22 HP 18 AC + Action Surge
Level 3: 31 HP 18 AC + Maneuvers
Level 4: 40 HP 19 AC (ASI Dex +2)
Level 5: 49 HP 19 AC + Extra Attack
Level 6: 58 HP 20 AC (ASI Dex+2)
Level 7: 66 HP 20 AC (Rogue level: Sneak Attack, Expertise in Stealth and Athletics)

This build is a Fighter that:

- Functions as a tank thanks to high AC and high HP
- Can swap between melee and ranged effectively
- Has excellent Stealth thanks to be Dex focused, prof (later Expertise) and Chameleon Carapace
- Fairly good initiative
- Good Tier 1/early Tier 2 damage thanks to Secondary Arms allowing a shield and TWF, plus Action Surge and Maneuver damage, later Sneak.
- Good at scouting (excellent Stealth, good Perception, Thieves' Tools, Telepathy if scouting as a group, darkvision, able to add a d8 onto Invs, Hist, and Insight checks)

It doesn't cover absolutely every base, but it does some things excellently, some things very well and is okay-good at a lot. A straight Battle Master here also works, but I thought throwing a Rogue level would be interesting.


Ok, my take on a moon druid sample build.


Race: Ghostwise Halfing
Subclass: Moon Druid
Background: Outlander
Str 8 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 8
Skills: Perception, Survival, Athletics, Stealth, Drum (tool), Elvish (language)
Feats: War Caster
Race Abilities: Halfling Luck, Brave, Halfling Nimbleness, Silent Speech

Level 1: 10 HP 15 AC
Level 2: 17 HP 15 AC + Brown Bear 34HP AC 11 / Giant Spider 26HP AC 14
Level 3: 24 HP 15 AC + Brown Bear 34HP AC 11 / Giant Spider 26HP AC 14
Level 4: 31 HP 17 AC + Giant Octopus 52HP AC11 / Giant Toad 39HP AC 11
Level 5: 38 HP 17 AC + Giant Octopus 52HP AC11 / Giant Toad 39HP AC 11
Level 6: 45 HP 17 AC + Polar Bear 42HP AC12 / Cave Bear 42HP AC12 / Rhino 45 HP AC 11/ Giant Constrictor Snake 60HP AC 12/ Allosaurus 51HP AC13 / Plesiosaurus 68 HP AC13
Level 7: 52HP 17 AC + Wildshapes x2 + polymorpth = > 300HP

Cantrips:
Thorn Whip
Guidance
Mending

Spells
1st: Detect Magic (R), Goodberry, Entangle, Healing Word, Faerie Fire, Thunderwave
2nd: Spike Growth, Pass without Trace, Summon Beast, Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, Augury (R), Darkvision, Lesser Restoration, Healing Spirit
3rd: Conjure Animals, Revify, Sleet Storm, Plant Growth, Dispel Magic, Summon Fey, Aura of Vitality, Water Breathing, Wind Curtain
4th: Polymorph, Conjure Woodland Beings, Conjure Minor Elementals, Watery Sphere, Confusion, Divination (R), Wall of Fire, Summon Elemental, Ice Storm

This build:
Level 1: OK damage with a scimitar and a semi-ranged option with Thorn Whip. OK AC from armor and shield, standard spells, good healing abilities.
Level 2: Moon Druid. Brown Bear for multiattack and HP, Giant Spider for climb, blindsight, darkvision and ranged web. Just wildshaping and attacking is super strong but can cast the occasional buffer first (e.g. faerifire) and heal afterwards the whole party as necessary.
Level 3: lvl2 spell options, huge stealth bonus, AoE, d first summoning spell.
Level 4: Flaming Sphere bonus action+ wildshape = profit. Swimming speed creatures. Octopus gives range 15ft and free grapple. Also the druid can fight in the water.
Level 5: Conjure Animals and Summon Fey entered the chat.
Level 6: Magical wildshape attacks and CR 2 creatures. Good Dinosaur options may be availalbe. Otherwise Polar Bear/Giant snake are standard.
Level 7: Access to 4th level spells.


NOTES:
-Race lucky is very useful while concentraiting and silent speech can help communicating while wildshaping. Halfling Nimbleness may apply or not while wildshaping (DM dependent). (Variant human & Custom lineage also good options)
- Good mental scores
- Levels 2-6 the Druid is primarily a melee/gish character. At level 2 he wins DnD then starts loosing melee power progressively and gains in spellcasting.
- 6 & 7 the character relies more on spellcasting and less on melee. He can still jump in the frontline without fear with potent forms such as the giant constrictor snake and giant ape. Excellent battlefield control options with conjure animals & woodland beings, plant growth, sleet storm, etc.
- Good tank with up to 140HP roughly from wildhshapes at level 6 and more than 300HP at level 7, some ranged options & grappling
- Very good healer with early access to revify, excellent scout (wildshape+pass without trace + prof in stealth & perception + meld into stone)
- Good utility spells


From 6 onwards other melees are better fighters. We can take 1 Barbarian level to fix this if we want, but getting 4th level spells at 7 is a good capstone for a max lvl7 build.

[Eldariel]

This only matters in your mind. When we played through Avernus, through Waterdeep, through Against the Giants, we're not playing parallel to some caster only party that's applying pressure to us to beat a certain number of encounters within a certain amount of time. The game moves at the pace of the party, unless you're up against the clock. But even then I haven't seen a module that requires casters to get somewhere in time.

It matters if you want to make relevant comparisons in power between classes. You have to compare the same entity in the same environment and quantify the difference in performance: then you're left with the power differential. If you don't care, why post in threads about character power or optimization? The whole point of the discussion is completely irrelevant to you if you don't care about power.

But "I don't care about power" is not the same as "There is no difference in power". It is just what you say: you don't care about it. That does not change the system. Nor the power differential between the classes. Obviously the power differential is most visible when you stress test parties, i.e. put them through extremely difficult encounters. That's why I keep posting tough encounters. Your response is..."Lol, it's a hard encounter." Okay, sure, but if group A can comfortably win against an arbitrary hard encounter and group B dies to it, there should be no disagreements about group A being stronger than group B. Which is a topic of power.

Whether you enjoy strong or weak things or whatever class or whatever is, by comparison, completely irrelevant regarding the power of those options. You do you. Your fun is your fun and nobody has a say about that; I'm certain we're all happy that we are all having fun in our own games. But similarly, our fun in no ways affects class power. Class power is objective, fun is subjective. Classes as printed in the game have certain level of options with certain amounts of power. The most reliable tests of said power are encounters and the harder the encounter (or series of encounters), the more power it of course takes to survive it. There is variety in class match-ups vs. encounters but if we apply a variety of encounters to every given class or party, we should be left with a fairly reliable measurement of the encounter solving power of said classes.


So when you say "only the player and build matter", and then assume encounters that require magic to make your point, you don't see how the DM matters as well? The point of my response is that there can be other ways without magic to get across. You are insisting that magic is the only way, to show that magic is superior.

It's pretty trivial to come up with situations where something can only be accomplished by magic. There's so much stuff magic can do that you can't do otherwise. It's all but impossible to come up with situations where you need a particular non-magic ability since this game just doesn't do unique non-magic abilities really. That's the whole point: at any point if you have magic you can just do a bunch of stuff you couldn't do without it. Non-magic will almost never give you the same expansion of options. If DM just gives you a scenario and tells you "Do X", magic will be able to do a lot of things where you would have no options if you didn't have magic. If you want non-casters to succeed, you'll have to specifically design solutions for them. For casters, you can just present problems and let them solve it. That's a fundamental difference in power right there: catered vs generic challenges.

[Dr.Samurai]

It matters if you want to make relevant comparisons in power between classes. You have to compare the same entity in the same environment and quantify the difference in performance: then you're left with the power differential. If you don't care, why post in threads about character power or optimization?
Because you're making sweeping generalizations that aren't substantiated. There IS a disparity between casters. But you are elevating the standards for "play D&D" to require casters, and then concluding that martials are worthless and can't succeed without casters. There is absolutely NOTHING to substantiate that assumption.

The whole point of the discussion is completely irrelevant to you if you don't care about power.
Fair. I can drop out of the discussion after this point.

But "I don't care about power" is not the same as "There is no difference in power".
True. But the point I'm making is "There is a difference in power" is not the same as "need casters to play/win".

It's pretty trivial to come up with situations where something can only be accomplished by magic. There's so much stuff magic can do that you can't do otherwise. It's all but impossible to come up with situations where you need a particular non-magic ability since this game just doesn't do unique non-magic abilities really. That's the whole point: at any point if you have magic you can just do a bunch of stuff you couldn't do without it. Non-magic will almost never give you the same expansion of options. If DM just gives you a scenario and tells you "Do X", magic will be able to do a lot of things where you would have no options if you didn't have magic. If you want non-casters to succeed, you'll have to specifically design solutions for them. For casters, you can just present problems and let them solve it. That's a fundamental difference in power right there: catered vs generic challenges.
I understand your position on this. But I think it's caster bias. When you make a comment like this, you are assuming that your casters can do anything, that they are up for any challenge. If I say "well, why would the DM challenge martials with something that requires spells?" you counter with "AHA! the DM is catering to martials!".

But then... why not have your lava lake encounter at level 1? Why do you assume that it occurs when your casters can teleport or fly over it (with the slots to upcast for more targets)? Why not have the 10 veterans show up at level 2, before the casters have there strong AOEs? Why assume these encounters occur when your casters are fully rested and have all their resources? If the DM is not catering to casters, why are the casters always fully prepared and perfectly stocked to deal with these encounters?

Because all of these conversations occur under a massive caster supremacy bias.

And this isn't even factoring in spell selection. Even IF a caster chooses Fly at level 5, they can't upcast it to target more than one person. So how does that help with the lava lake? Even if the party reaches level 13, what if the wizard selects Forcecage and Simulacrum instead of Teleport, what happens then? Why does teleport get assumed for your scenario? Because the DM is catering the encounters to what the caster is capable of doing. You're setting yourself up for a slam dunk, over and over and over again. That's why it's unimpressive. It doesn't reflect a real game.

[Unoriginal]

It's pretty trivial to come up with situations where something can only be accomplished by magic. There's so much stuff magic can do that you can't do otherwise. It's all but impossible to come up with situations where you need a particular non-magic ability since this game just doesn't do unique non-magic abilities really. That's the whole point: at any point if you have magic you can just do a bunch of stuff you couldn't do without it. Non-magic will almost never give you the same expansion of options. If DM just gives you a scenario and tells you "Do X", magic will be able to do a lot of things where you would have no options if you didn't have magic. If you want non-casters to succeed, you'll have to specifically design solutions for them. For casters, you can just present problems and let them solve it. That's a fundamental difference in power right there: catered vs generic challenges.

Given this assertion and the ones you made before, I am doubly curious about how the character optimized for tge challenge I wrote will turn out.

Then again, since the assertion in your post is that casters do not need challenges catered for them to succeed and they can just solve the problem presented to them, perhaps you would prefer building a generally optimized Wizard and see how they handle that presented problem?


Or maybe a generally optimized Artificier, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock or caster multiclass, if you'd rather.

[Dork_Forge]

Given this assertion and the ones you made before, I am doubly curious about how the character optimized for tge challenge I wrote will turn out.

Then again, since the assertion in your post is that casters do not need challenges catered for them to succeed and they can just solve the problem presented to them, perhaps you'd rather build a generally optimized Wizard and see how they handle that presented problem?

Really looking forward to Eladriel's build and tackling of the challenge.

Also, how is this as a drawing out of what you described?

https://i.ibb.co/QYjGLtF/327807468-526398616269529-933992024473728259-n.png

https://i.ibb.co/ts1hxcH/328080942-904688780681170-2317916378989087809-n.png

https://i.ibb.co/F8vqmRy/328521828-500119188998307-543757025662851743-n.png

[Eldariel]

True. But the point I'm making is "There is a difference in power" is not the same as "need casters to play/win".

I have never ever stated that you need to play anything in particular. You play what you find fun! I'm just saying casters are more powerful and if you want to optimize for power (as the OP in this thread expressed they'd want to), you should probably play a caster because they are more powerful. But outside the context of "What is the strongest mechanical option for this" I don't think there's any reason to pick anything in particular.


I understand your position on this. But I think it's caster bias. When you make a comment like this, you are assuming that your casters can do anything, that they are up for any challenge. If I say "well, why would the DM challenge martials with something that requires spells?" you counter with "AHA! the DM is catering to martials!".

I'm not assuming that casters can do it, I'm merely saying that it's much more likely for casters to be able to do it than martials. Which, I think is a true statement. Casters might have the spells. They might not. But it's certainly a higher chance that they have the right spell either right now or available for preparation with a rest than classes without any such ability in the first place.


But then... why not have your lava lake encounter at level 1? Why do you assume that it occurs when your casters can teleport or fly over it (with the slots to upcast for more targets)? Why not have the 10 veterans show up at level 2, before the casters have there strong AOEs? Why assume these encounters occur when your casters are fully rested and have all their resources? If the DM is not catering to casters, why are the casters always fully prepared and perfectly stocked to deal with these encounters?

Well, the thing is, anything is equally screwed if you face a Tier 2-3 obstacle on Tier 1. Then your only solution is to avoid undertaking a quest that involves crossing a lake of lava or to look for some magic items or helpers that can aid you there. Which for a level 1 party is probably prudent. But if you face a Tier 2 obstacle on Tier 2 but the party lacks certain options, it still can't bypass it. If you bring a Tier 4 martial party, it still can't solve the same encounter easily. I guess they could try swimming in lava. For a Totem Warrior Barbarian, that's possibly doable and a Zealot can of course Rage through it. Others have a less easy time of it. Meanwhile, a Tier 2 party of casters has a reasonable solution to it in e.g. Dimension Door. Meaning if we just randomize the quests the party picks across levels, there's a maybe 70% chance of the caster party having the tools to solve it while the martial party is close to 0% across the whole level spectrum.

If we look at the level on which 10 veterans are beatable, there are probably more levels on which casters can beat it than on which martials can beat it. Level 3 caster party might be able to bypass the encounter with Pass without Trace; their chances of winning outright are fairly low though (even the strongest possible level 3 party with multiple Moon Druids, Twilight Cleric, and some CC caster would have a rough time fighting that many enemies). A level 1-2 party with a Wizard would probably still at least be able to use familiar to scout the presence of 10 veterans and NOPE out of there without fighting, perhaps at the cost of said familiar, which is a defeat but at least not a TPK.

I'm not saying casters will always win. Far from it! I've had a dragon fight a level 1 party. The party died. They went to the wrong neighbourhood and got an unlucky encounter roll, ending up as lunch, brunch, and dinner. It was an Adult Dragon so no CC spells were of help either. That's stuff that can happen; the world contains lots of powerful creatures and the lower leveled the party is, the more they have to pray they don't rouse their anger. But the more powerful you are, the more likely you are to be able to survive rough things. The more powerful you are, the more levels there are where you won't die. Like even with 3-4 encounters behind them, it's not out of the question for a level 6 party of casters to win the Veteran-fight; just a Twilight Cleric with one of the two uses of their SR-recovery Channel Divinity will add enough durability to make victory possible if not likely. Add a single casting of Conjure Animals, with just Webs or Hypnotic Patterns or other AOE CC to even it out. So it's most likely a couple of level 2-3 spells between the party and some class resources on top of it and they'll be looking pretty good. Given a level 6 party of full casters has 12 level 3 and 12 level 2 spells plus probably Arcane Recovery on at least one member for +1, that's not all that unlikely.


And this isn't even factoring in spell selection. Even IF a caster chooses Fly at level 5, they can't upcast it to target more than one person. So how does that help with the lava lake? Even if the party reaches level 13, what if the wizard selects Forcecage and Simulacrum instead of Teleport, what happens then? Why does teleport get assumed for your scenario? Because the DM is catering the encounters to what the caster is capable of doing. You're setting yourself up for a slam dunk, over and over and over again. That's why it's unimpressive. It doesn't reflect a real game.

Flip the script. Take a level 13 Fighter. Whether he selects Blind-fighting or Defense, Rune Knight or Battlemaster, he still can't get across. It doesn't in fact matter what he chooses, he still can't. Echo Knight or Eldritch Knight could perhaps do it in for an extremely small "lake", but it's hard to call something 60' across a lake in the first place. That's a lava pond at best. Meanwhile, a level 13 caster could probably just use Dimension Door to that end. It'll take a couple of castings but provided that he doesn't need to go much more than 500', that's probably doable. He could also try to upcast Fly on the whole party and brave the Fire Elementals, perhaps using Fire Shield or Absorb Elements. Or he could just maybe have Investiture of Flame and swim across the lake unaffected. Said caster has many options and they're not all that likely to have one of them. Therefore, the probability of a level 13 caster party being able to win this encounter is far higher than the probability of a level 13 martial party being able to do so. It's not a guarantee. I don't assume guaranteed outcomes in this game. It's a game of probability. But as any gambler knows, probabilities matter a ton.

[Eldariel]

Given this assertion and the ones you made before, I am doubly curious about how the character optimized for tge challenge I wrote will turn out.

Then again, since the assertion in your post is that casters do not need challenges catered for them to succeed and they can just solve the problem presented to them, perhaps you would prefer building a generally optimized Wizard and see how they handle that presented problem?


Or maybe a generally optimized Artificier, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock or caster multiclass, if you'd rather.

Sounds good to me! Give me a level and the information I'll have when I'm doing spell preparation (before embarking on the quest) and I'll cook something up.

EDIT: Sorry, I missed it! I'll post something when I have time; hopefully before the weekend. On level 7, my instinct is to go Shepherd Druid but of course, we were talking about Wizards so I'll try and write a Wizard for it. Let's see what happens!

[Unoriginal]

Sounds good to me! Give me a level and the information I'll have when I'm doing spell preparation (before embarking on the quest) and I'll cook something up.

EDIT: Sorry, I missed it! I'll post something when I have time; hopefully before the weekend. On level 7, my instinct is to go Shepherd Druid but of course, we were talking about Wizards so I'll try and write a Wizard for it. Let's see what happens!

If you'd rather go Shepherd Druid, you should go Shepherd Druid, nonneed to make a Wizard for the sale of making a Wizard.

Do you still more info for spell preparation, or is what was written enough?


Really looking forward to Eladriel's build and tackling of the challenge.

Also, how is this as a drawing out of what you described?

https://i.ibb.co/QYjGLtF/327807468-526398616269529-933992024473728259-n.png

https://i.ibb.co/ts1hxcH/328080942-904688780681170-2317916378989087809-n.png

https://i.ibb.co/F8vqmRy/328521828-500119188998307-543757025662851743-n.png


That is pretty much exactly what I described, aside from a couple character positioning nitpicks.

Just need to add

the second stair on the middle floor

Thank you a lot!

Also, very interesting PC choice.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'm not assuming that casters can do it, I'm merely saying that it's much more likely for casters to be able to do it than martials. Which, I think is a true statement. Casters might have the spells. They might not. But it's certainly a higher chance that they have the right spell either right now or available for preparation with a rest than classes without any such ability in the first place.
This seems a much more measured perspective than what I've been taking away from your comments.

Well, the thing is, anything is equally screwed if you face a Tier 2-3 obstacle on Tier 1. Then your only solution is to avoid undertaking a quest that involves crossing a lake of lava or to look for some magic items or helpers that can aid you there. Which for a level 1 party is probably prudent. But if you face a Tier 2 obstacle on Tier 2 but the party lacks certain options, it still can't bypass it. If you bring a Tier 4 martial party, it still can't solve the same encounter easily. I guess they could try swimming in lava. For a Totem Warrior Barbarian, that's possibly doable and a Zealot can of course Rage through it. Others have a less easy time of it. Meanwhile, a Tier 2 party of casters has a reasonable solution to it in e.g. Dimension Door. Meaning if we just randomize the quests the party picks across levels, there's a maybe 70% chance of the caster party having the tools to solve it while the martial party is close to 0% across the whole level spectrum.

Every spell selection is a choice. Unless you're assuming (there's that pesky DM intervention again) that the DM is handing out scrolls and spellbooks of the spells you want. So earlier you mentioned Arcane Eye. So now you're saying Dimension Door. So I guess those are your two level 4 spells.

So you don't have all the other 4th level spells you might want, like Polymorph, Greater Invis, Vitriolic Sphere, Wall of Fire, any of the Summons, Banishment, etc.

Each time you say a caster can do X, you're choosing to do some thing over another thing, and it becomes less amazing. And that's why I go back to my play experience. Because the casters in my party aren't hazy vague notions of unlimited spell potential. They make choices, so they can do certain things, and not others.

Not to mention... when you first pick up Dimension Door, you can cast it once. That's not getting you across a lake. Twice isn't either. So you're really in the same boat (hehe) as the martials until you get Teleport. Then you turn around and thumb your nose at everyone else.

If we look at the level on which 10 veterans are beatable, there are probably more levels on which casters can beat it than on which martials can beat it. Level 3 caster party might be able to bypass the encounter with Pass without Trace; their chances of winning outright are fairly low though (even the strongest possible level 3 party with multiple Moon Druids, Twilight Cleric, and some CC caster would have a rough time fighting that many enemies). A level 1-2 party with a Wizard would probably still at least be able to use familiar to scout the presence of 10 veterans and NOPE out of there without fighting, perhaps at the cost of said familiar, which is a defeat but at least not a TPK.
Maybe, I don't know. And the reason I don't particularly care is because I just don't see this happening in my games, ever. An encounter difficulty that is deadly for a party 6 times higher in level is just something that doesn't really happen in my group.

I'm not saying casters will always win. Far from it!
Ok, understood. So if you're not saying they always win, and you're also saying they don't have to be tested, you're basically saying that they have more stuff, so they have better chances in a wider set of circumstances. That's fine.

I've had a dragon fight a level 1 party. The party died. They went to the wrong neighbourhood and got an unlucky encounter roll, ending up as lunch, brunch, and dinner. It was an Adult Dragon so no CC spells were of help either. That's stuff that can happen; the world contains lots of powerful creatures and the lower leveled the party is, the more they have to pray they don't rouse their anger. But the more powerful you are, the more likely you are to be able to survive rough things. The more powerful you are, the more levels there are where you won't die. Like even with 3-4 encounters behind them, it's not out of the question for a level 6 party of casters to win the Veteran-fight; just a Twilight Cleric with one of the two uses of their SR-recovery Channel Divinity will add enough durability to make victory possible if not likely. Add a single casting of Conjure Animals, with just Webs or Hypnotic Patterns or other AOE CC to even it out. So it's most likely a couple of level 2-3 spells between the party and some class resources on top of it and they'll be looking pretty good. Given a level 6 party of full casters has 12 level 3 and 12 level 2 spells plus probably Arcane Recovery on at least one member for +1, that's not all that unlikely.

Twilight Cleric's channel divinity is insanely disruptive. Pointing to one of the most bonkers features to say that casters in general can defeat super deadly challenges says more about Twilight Sanctuary than it does about casters. If you slap that feature on a barbarian, you get the same effect. It's just a stupidly powerful ability that shouldn't be there, all things considered.

Flip the script.
But I'd rather pin this point down. Is it a normal part of the game to take into account the abilities of your party, or is it "catering" to them, and is catering a bad thing or not?

Because, as I've alluded to already, your wizard is in the same boat as the fighter until they get access to their super utility spells. So you're okay with "catering" or "dying" until your wizard outgrows some of those restraints and then you turn around and call it "catering". So if the lava lake comes into play before level 13, and you don't have teleport, then you're essentially a martial. Or maybe you used 1 or 2 of your level 4 slots in a previous encounter and now you don't have enough Dimension Doors to get across, so you're just like a martial. Etc etc. Either you're being catered to, or you're not. And if you're not, it's a major coincidence that you're always able to handle every encounter with spells.

Take a level 13 Fighter. Whether he selects Blind-fighting or Defense, Rune Knight or Battlemaster, he still can't get across. It doesn't in fact matter what he chooses, he still can't. Echo Knight or Eldritch Knight could perhaps do it in for an extremely small "lake", but it's hard to call something 60' across a lake in the first place. That's a lava pond at best. Meanwhile, a level 13 caster could probably just use Dimension Door to that end.
Right, it doesn't matter what the martial picks.

It does matter what the caster picks.

And for your scenarios, you're always encountering obstacles at a time when the caster's choices are available and in line with what is needed to overcome it. So again, you and others have talked about how casters have crowd control and exploration and infiltration and AoE and teleportation and etc etc etc etc etc.

But at certain levels, you don't have some of these things. You don't have all of these things.

So, again, are you coming across a lava lake before the wizard can upcast fly or teleport? Or does the DM cater to you and only put these encounters in place after you have the right exact spell for it?

If you grabbed Arcane Eye (mentioned earlier) and Dimension Door (also mentioned earlier), so you didn't grab Polymorph and can't turn into a giant eagle and carry everyone over one by one, does the DM not put the Lava Lake there until you choose the necessary spells?

When exactly is it catering and not catering?

[Dork_Forge]

Indeed, my bad. I was too lazy to multiply things by 5.5. Rounding the 0.5 dmg doesn't really change things (7.4 dmg taken /round and 4.075 dmg/round respectively). The second wildshape is down in 9.2 rounds (compared to the initial calculation) and the fighter in 5.4 (plus the second wind). Pressumambly druid can also heal 4.5 x2 and push his durability for 1-2 more rounds, but no need to use spell slots for this, so I'm happy with the numbers we found.

I think it's pretty representative.


Sure, but my conclussion is slightly different. Not bad for a spellcaster gish, where fighter is the melee class. This is still 34% more time alive compared to a damn fighter, with higher damage output overall, that can also do rituals, detect magic, heal, etc.

Don't get me wrong, it's impressive, but it's also an outlier subclass at the best level for the comparison. I also don't think I'd agree that Fighter is the melee class either, they're a blank canvas. If you wanted to label a class the melee class, it'd be the Barbarian, because they're so heavily pushed into melee by their features.


Indeed. Damage doesn't scale with moon druid, that's why I like other wildshapes later on that offer something more than damage like spider's webb, grappling, etc.

It definitely gets more interesting when using shapes for more than just meat.


Yes. For lvl 1 this is the best consistent damage available for Druid. I've made some comparisons for a spores druid I started playing, not much time ago in another thread, comparing thorn whipe, primal savagery, shillelagh etc. It takes several levels for shillelagh to become obsolete. I think that a druid with AC19, 10HP, attacking with +6 for 1d8+4 is an effective lvl1 druid. It's just not worth it for the next 6 levels vs vhuman.


Wait, how is a Tortle getting a +4 Wisdom at 1st level?


Considering that this single WS use gives 50% of druid's durability it can be argued that it is indeed important for the whole party to take a short rest, if this is possible.

I get the argument, and clearly it's not an issue for you, but resting after doing any little thing can be a real problem at some tables.



Complex, as in, complex decisions to make before during and after battle (when and what spells to cast, when to wildshape, into what animal, conjure or not, and so on). Complex decision trees have most classes. Moon druid in particular does not have that many complexities in that respect. It's a fairly straightforward subclass when optimising as far as I can tell. It takes more effort to make a good fighter, but then fighting is straightforward. It takes less efort to make a good moon druid, but playing optimally a good moon may be more difficult. My 2 cents.

I get what you mean, choosing what spells and when to shift are generally more levers than some fighters, for sure.




Presumably training takes years so plenty of time to witness different wildshapes. Again, I'm not saying druids should know the whole animal kingdom, but potent wildshapes should be tought and encouraged to be used even if the budding druid is still not able to wildshape himself. Or at least that's how I'd approach this. Of course if druid is a hermit, self-taught etc that won't work.

Dinossaurs is a different thing. And my gut feeling is that WotC made dinosaurs particularly strong vs normal animals just for this reason, to allow druid's summoning/spellcasting scale as necessary in optimised parties, while conveniently allows DMs to ban dinosaurs in most games.

I think it's a reasonable justification, Druid players should just be prepared to discuss desired forms with their DM, espeically oddball ones like dinosaurs.



Frankly, I don't think the situation changes qualitatively that much until the mellee classes get the second attack.

Extra Attack is certainly a big milestone, but subclasses can also be drastic shifts. For example, the number of rounds the Fighter survives in that example from earlier increases significantly if the Figher is using their reaction to reduce damage.


Ok, my take on a moon druid sample build.


Race: Ghostwise Halfing
Subclass: Moon Druid
Background: Outlander
Str 8 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 8
Skills: Perception, Survival, Athletics, Stealth, Drum (tool), Elvish (language)
Feats: War Caster
Race Abilities: Halfling Luck, Brave, Halfling Nimbleness, Silent Speech

Level 1: 10 HP 15 AC
Level 2: 17 HP 15 AC + Brown Bear 34HP AC 11 / Giant Spider 26HP AC 14
Level 3: 24 HP 15 AC + Brown Bear 34HP AC 11 / Giant Spider 26HP AC 14
Level 4: 31 HP 17 AC + Giant Octopus 52HP AC11 / Giant Toad 39HP AC 11
Level 5: 38 HP 17 AC + Giant Octopus 52HP AC11 / Giant Toad 39HP AC 11
Level 6: 45 HP 17 AC + Polar Bear 42HP AC12 / Cave Bear 42HP AC12 / Rhino 45 HP AC 11/ Giant Constrictor Snake 60HP AC 12/ Allosaurus 51HP AC13 / Plesiosaurus 68 HP AC13
Level 7: 52HP 17 AC + Wildshapes x2 + polymorpth = > 300HP

Cantrips:
Thorn Whip
Guidance
Mending

Spells
1st: Detect Magic (R), Goodberry, Entangle, Healing Word, Faerie Fire, Thunderwave
2nd: Spike Growth, Pass without Trace, Summon Beast, Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, Augury (R), Darkvision, Lesser Restoration, Healing Spirit
3rd: Conjure Animals, Revify, Sleet Storm, Plant Growth, Dispel Magic, Summon Fey, Aura of Vitality, Water Breathing, Wind Curtain
4th: Polymorph, Conjure Woodland Beings, Conjure Minor Elementals, Watery Sphere, Confusion, Divination (R), Wall of Fire, Summon Elemental, Ice Storm

This build:
Level 1: OK damage with a scimitar and a semi-ranged option with Thorn Whip. OK AC from armor and shield, standard spells, good healing abilities.
Level 2: Moon Druid. Brown Bear for multiattack and HP, Giant Spider for climb, blindsight, darkvision and ranged web. Just wildshaping and attacking is super strong but can cast the occasional buffer first (e.g. faerifire) and heal afterwards the whole party as necessary.
Level 3: lvl2 spell options, huge stealth bonus, AoE, d first summoning spell.
Level 4: Flaming Sphere bonus action+ wildshape = profit. Swimming speed creatures. Octopus gives range 15ft and free grapple. Also the druid can fight in the water.
Level 5: Conjure Animals and Summon Fey entered the chat.
Level 6: Magical wildshape attacks and CR 2 creatures. Good Dinosaur options may be availalbe. Otherwise Polar Bear/Giant snake are standard.
Level 7: Access to 4th level spells.


NOTES:
-Race lucky is very useful while concentraiting and silent speech can help communicating while wildshaping. Halfling Nimbleness may apply or not while wildshaping (DM dependent). (Variant human & Custom lineage also good options)
- Good mental scores
- Levels 2-6 the Druid is primarily a melee/gish character. At level 2 he wins DnD then starts loosing melee power progressively and gains in spellcasting.
- 6 & 7 the character relies more on spellcasting and less on melee. He can still jump in the frontline without fear with potent forms such as the giant constrictor snake and giant ape. Excellent battlefield control options with conjure animals & woodland beings, plant growth, sleet storm, etc.
- Good tank with up to 140HP roughly from wildhshapes at level 6 and more than 300HP at level 7, some ranged options & grappling
- Very good healer with early access to revify, excellent scout (wildshape+pass without trace + prof in stealth & perception + meld into stone)
- Good utility spells


From 6 onwards other melees are better fighters. We can take 1 Barbarian level to fix this if we want, but getting 4th level spells at 7 is a good capstone for a max lvl7 build.

A nice build, my comments:

- You seem to just be adding Polymorph as additional HP like Wild Shape, but they're very, very different transformations.
- You say good mentals, but really that means just good Wisdom. Charisma is hard dumped to 8 and Int is only a 12, with no skill profs in any Int or Cha skills
- It's not a very good healer, it's a healer. It has no features that offer additional healing, or features that enhance healing spells. It just gets to pick up the same healing spells any Druid can, but specifically went for Healing Word over Cure Wounds. Given that shifting is a bonus action, it would make sense to either have both, or lean on the one that does more healing.
- When talking about scouting you mention Stealth prof and Wildshape, I'm not sure if you meant them separately, but you don't get to add your skill profs to shapes. Given that most shapes won't have Stealth prof and certainly won't have high/max Dex, even with PwT their results aren't spectacular considering the very high investment cost.

Have you ever considered a Gem dragonborn Moon Druid? Telepathy, but you also get to fly in any shape and breath energy. Mega bear, basically.



That is pretty much exactly what I described, aside from a couple character positioning nitpicks.

Just need to add

the second stair on the middle floor

Thank you a lot!

Also, very interesting PC choice.

I'll add that in now and then give it a quick run through. I think you'll see what I'm going for when I post the results, you gave a clear objective, after all!

[Dr.Samurai]

Considering that this single WS use gives 50% of druid's durability it can be argued that it is indeed important for the whole party to take a short rest, if this is possible
I get the argument, and clearly it's not an issue for you, but resting after doing any little thing can be a real problem at some tables.
It also drastically skews the conversation and the power level. If you use your wildshape to scout, then you don't have that max durability that is being advertised. Unless you rest every single time you use a wildshape.

But most parties don't rest when a single resource is used. It's actually quite a cost to say "Druids are amazing at scouting and infiltration, and also super durable". Don't forget to add to that "if you let them short rest every single time they use a wildshape".

[Dork_Forge]

It also drastically skews the conversation and the power level. If you use your wildshape to scout, then you don't have that max durability that is being advertised. Unless you rest every single time you use a wildshape.

But most parties don't rest when a single resource is used. It's actually quite a cost to say "Druids are amazing at scouting and infiltration, and also super durable". Don't forget to add to that "if you let them short rest every single time they use a wildshape".

Yeah agree with this, the reflection would be a Battle Master dumping Second Wind, Action Surge, and every Superiority Die every encounter, unrealistic and outcome warping.



Challenge Results!

Race: Tabaxi
Class: Fighter (7)
Subclass: Psi Warrior
ASIs: Dex +2 and Lucky
Skills: Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Perception, Athletics

Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 8

Unarmored AC: 14

First I used Telekinetic Movement to slide the blindfold up and Second Wind (roll 7, new current 15 HP). As neither of these things are really obvious, I didn't trigger initiative at this point.

Initiative was rolled now, as it would be the first escape attempt:

Tabaxi: 23
Bat: 14
Drunk Xvarts: 11

Round 1:

Tabaxi: Attempt to escape 1 was a 16, Lucky rerolled into a 5, complete failure
Bat: moves to harass and tell Xvarts about my shenanigans
Xvarts: make action-free Perception to notice if I made any progress. One gets a 3 the other gets a 17 against all odds, spends his turn putting the blindfold back on then returning to his place

Round 2:

Tabaxi: Attempt 2 is a 22 Success! Now free object interaction to remove blindfold, Action Surge to Dash and Feline Agility to double speed. I rounded up to 40 ft. to be conservative. Bonus action Psi Powered Leap and fly remaining 80 ft. off the roof (landing on floor).

Scouts and Duergar enter initiative at 5 and 9 respectively.

Xvarts: Follow to roof and fire with slings (17 and 11) one hits for 3 damage.
Mind Master: lacking a ranged attack, they start descending the lighthouse to raise the alarm.
Scout: the MM doesn't have darkvision and the Tabaxi is far enough away from the lighthouse that it wouldn't help and no light was described away from the building, so each makes two attacks with disadvantage. (18, 11, 7, 7) one hit for 10 damage!

Tabaxi uses reaction Protective Field, reducing it by 10 and negating all damage.

Tabaxi: Action Dash Bonus Action Psi Powered Leap, flies another 120ft. into the darkness

I called it a success here, as there is no realistic chance of pursuit, only the scouts have the range to attack, but at disadvantage and against Protective field with 12HP left.

A clunky start, but a quick success!

This could have been harder if the Duergar got an attack of opportunity, but TBH a single attack with the option of reduction isn't going to change the outcome.

You could do this with a Shadow Monk with Telekinetic. Invisible Mage Hand lower the blindfold, Shadow Step out of the restraints to the staircase, run and jump off the lighthouse (slow falling for no damage) and just running away. A dragon monk could have AOE'd the guards whilst still bound and flown away etc.

A soulknife would have been easy to get out of the restraints and strong to fight, but has no clean way of healing themselves up and having an unarmored AC.

I'm curious how a caster would do in this situation, I'm guessing not well overall, but we'll see.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah agree with this, the reflection would be a Battle Master dumping Second Wind, Action Surge, and every Superiority Die every encounter, unrealistic and outcome warping.



Challenge Results!

Race: Tabaxi
Class: Fighter (7)
Subclass: Psi Warrior
ASIs: Dex +2 and Lucky
Skills: Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Perception, Athletics

Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 8

Unarmored AC: 14

First I used Telekinetic Movement to slide the blindfold up and Second Wind (roll 7, new current 15 HP). As neither of these things are really obvious, I didn't trigger initiative at this point.

Initiative was rolled now, as it would be the first escape attempt:

Tabaxi: 23
Bat: 14
Drunk Xvarts: 11

Round 1:

Tabaxi: Attempt to escape 1 was a 16, Lucky rerolled into a 5, complete failure
Bat: moves to harass and tell Xvarts about my shenanigans
Xvarts: make action-free Perception to notice if I made any progress. One gets a 3 the other gets a 17 against all odds, spends his turn putting the blindfold back on then returning to his place

Round 2:

Tabaxi: Attempt 2 is a 22 Success! Now free object interaction to remove blindfold, Action Surge to Dash and Feline Agility to double speed. I rounded up to 40 ft. to be conservative. Bonus action Psi Powered Leap and fly remaining 80 ft. off the roof (landing on floor).

Scouts and Duergar enter initiative at 5 and 9 respectively.

Xvarts: Follow to roof and fire with slings (17 and 11) one hits for 3 damage.
Mind Master: lacking a ranged attack, they start descending the lighthouse to raise the alarm.
Scout: the MM doesn't have darkvision and the Tabaxi is far enough away from the lighthouse that it wouldn't help and no light was described away from the building, so each makes two attacks with disadvantage. (18, 11, 7, 7) one hit for 10 damage!

Tabaxi uses reaction Protective Field, reducing it by 10 and negating all damage.

Tabaxi: Action Dash Bonus Action Psi Powered Leap, flies another 120ft. into the darkness

I called it a success here, as there is no realistic chance of pursuit, only the scouts have the range to attack, but at disadvantage and against Protective field with 12HP left.

A clunky start, but a quick success!

This could have been harder if the Duergar got an attack of opportunity, but TBH a single attack with the option of reduction isn't going to change the outcome.

You could do this with a Shadow Monk with Telekinetic. Invisible Mage Hand lower the blindfold, Shadow Step out of the restraints to the staircase, run and jump off the lighthouse (slow falling for no damage) and just running away. A dragon monk could have AOE'd the guards whilst still bound and flown away etc.

A soulknife would have been easy to get out of the restraints and strong to fight, but has no clean way of healing themselves up and having an unarmored AC.

I'm curious how a caster would do in this situation, I'm guessing not well overall, but we'll see.

Personal opinion/how I would rule things if I was DMing that:



I get the Bat not registering the blindfold slipping as "the prisoner is escaping", since there is no clue it slipped due to the PC's actions, and so it wouldn't trigger Initiative, but you don't need a WIS (Perception) check to notice that the blindfold isn't covering both of the PC's eyes anymore unless the PC is being actively stealthy about it (which takes an action and an ability check).

Furthermore, the Xvarts may be drunk and slacking off when they think the PC is unconscious, but I don't see why they would ignore a sign the prisoner is waking up. They would at least warn everyone in the lighthouse something happened with the PC (in Abyssal, but the Speaker can translate), then both of them would go to the PC (to keep each other from chickening out, if anything), check if the blindfold is the only thing to be out of place, and if they notice the PC is awake, they'll probably pummel their prisoner back into unconsciousness out of a cocktail of caution when handling a powerful individual, drunken boldness and petty sadism.

Since the Bat is there to warn them the PC is waking up and attempting to escape the manacles, the Xvarts would just turn their around, notice the blindfold having slipped, and the Bat would tell them PC woke up/moved against the manacles, and they would do as I said above to make sure PC doesn't escape.

If the Psi Warrior manages to fool the Xvarts before the guards below show up to assess the situation, and get out of the bonds to land outside the lighthouse, several things I'm not clear on:

1. What about the Hobgoblin Iron Shadow? Even assuming the Mind Master and the rest of the mooks didn't shout and raise the alarm immediately, it would be hard to not notice the rag-clad psion doing a superhero landing.

And the Hobgoblin Iron Shadow definitively can keep up with 120ft of movement (their basic movement + bonus action Dash from Expeditious Retreat is already 80ft), not to mention having ranged attacks and a 30ft teleport in case on-foot movement isn't enough.

2. I admit I haven't clarified the mechanical effect, but the Scouts are in a lit lighthouse, which has for purpose to illuminate the night quite visibly. I would say it would be reasonable that the area 80ft around the brasero is considered at least as in dim light (except where the roof or floor block the light). Does that change something for your Tabaxi's attempt?

It was a great tactic, though, and a great build as well. Just a couple kinks to work out.

[Dr.Samurai]

Nice work Dork_Forge.

@Unoriginal: Is multiclassing allowed? Does the tower door open in or out? You mentioned some minor differences in token placements, do you want to clarify those before another attempt is made or are you fine where the placement is now?

[Unoriginal]

@Unoriginal: Is multiclassing allowed?

Absolutely.



Does the tower door open in or out?

I would say out makes more sense.



You mentioned some minor differences in token placements, do you want to clarify those before another attempt is made or are you fine where the placement is now?

The placement on Dork_Forge's map is more than fine, the tokens are representing living beings after all, so it's entirely possible they get like that at some points.

Should I update the challenge info with my notes on how the NPCs would likely behave?

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah, I'd update it. If that's how you envision it going, makes sense to put it there.

[animorte]

I've been observing this back-and-forth a bit and I just want to chime in and say I genuinely appreciate the direction it has taken*. Even if the train hopped the rails 2 pages ago, I can still see the relevance.

*I've never seen a thread evolve into this kind of play test before.

[Dork_Forge]

Personal opinion/how I would rule things if I was DMing that:

I'll reply in spoiler to stop challenge details being generally seen:




I get the Bat not registering the blindfold slipping as "the prisoner is escaping", since there is no clue it slipped due to the PC's actions, and so it wouldn't trigger Initiative, but you don't need a WIS (Perception) check to notice that the blindfold isn't covering both of the PC's eyes anymore unless the PC is being actively stealthy about it (which takes an action and an ability check).

This didn't matter in effect because one made it, but this was me thinking whether two drunk and ill-disciplined Xvarts would notice the blindfold at all (I didn't really think the bat would notice a small detail like that in blindsight with no obvious cues to make it happen). Not really fussed on this part since it didn't end up mattering (they put it back up) and they noticed anyway.


Furthermore, the Xvarts may be drunk and slacking off when they think the PC is unconscious, but I don't see why they would ignore a sign the prisoner is waking up. They would at least warn everyone in the lighthouse something happened with the PC (in Abyssal, but the Speaker can translate), then both of them would go to the PC (to keep each other from chickening out, if anything), check if the blindfold is the only thing to be out of place, and if they notice the PC is awake, they'll probably pummel their prisoner back into unconsciousness out of a cocktail of caution when handling a powerful individual, drunken boldness and petty sadism.

Since the Bat is there to warn them the PC is waking up and attempting to escape the manacles, the Xvarts would just turn their around, notice the blindfold having slipped, and the Bat would tell them PC woke up/moved against the manacles, and they would do as I said above to make sure PC doesn't escape.

I think this is mismatched expectations:

- I didn't get the sense that guards that felt comfortable drinking and slacking off would be that careful about the PC waking up (and no guidance about them just being awake was given), especially since 95% of precautions were still in place and the one thing not in place was immediately rectified.

- The Xvarts are not only drunk and ill-disciplined, but their mental stats are also absolutely terrible across the board for a humanoid. Drunk, their passive perception would be 3 nevermind the quality of their decision-making with a -1 Int and -2 Wis.

If this would have been a case of Sleight of Hand to hide the attempt to slip out of the shackles (I just assumed it was visible) then the build has a +7 Sleight of Hand and the same for Stealth, with passives to beat of 3 (Xvarts) and 11 (Bat) with Lucky on hand I feel pretty comfortable with those odds. Which would have just made everything easier, since the first turn of initiative wouldn't have burnt an action on escaping.


If the Psi Warrior manages to fool the Xvarts before the guards below show up to assess the situation, and get out of the bonds to land outside the lighthouse, several things I'm not clear on:

1. What about the Hobgoblin Iron Shadow? Even assuming the Mind Master and the rest of the mooks didn't shout and raise the alarm immediately, it would be hard to not notice the rag-clad psion doing a superhero landing.

I had the Xvarts give chase and attack and the Duergar go to get the Iron Shadow/alert the rest. With 25 ft. movement speed I don't think they could even get to the bottom floor with a Dash. Shouting could certainly alert the Hobs below, but the Iron Shadow is outside of a reinforced door, so I figured that something very, very loud or the door being opened.

In terms of noticing the landing, that's something I considered the lighting for, they only have a passive of 12 and darkvision of 60 ft. Automatically knowing that the PC landed in a controlled manner (with their fly speed) 80 ft. away in the dark where they couldn't be seen even if they looked seemed a stretch.


And the Hobgoblin Iron Shadow definitively can keep up with 120ft of movement (their basic movement + bonus action Dash from Expeditious Retreat is already 80ft), not to mention having ranged attacks and a 30ft teleport in case on-foot movement isn't enough.

They can keep up if they double dash, but... that's all they can do as both would have a speed of 120 ft. They could use their darts, but that would open up the gap and be at disadvantage since dart only have a 20ft. normal range.

And that's assuming a flat plain, the Psi Warrior is flying, so could land on hills/trees etc. that may be anywhere in the several hundred feet around this lighthouse.

If they were able to get hits off, unlikely at disadvantage with a +5 vs a 14 but possible, then max damage is 7 and the Tabaxi has plenty of dice left to reduce the damage.


2. I admit I haven't clarified the mechanical effect, but the Scouts are in a lit lighthouse, which has for purpose to illuminate the night quite visibly. I would say it would be reasonable that the area 80ft around the brasero is considered at least as in dim light (except where the roof or floor block the light). Does that change something for your Tabaxi's attempt?

That would probably change things a little, the scouts would have hit twice instead of once without the disadvantage, but they wouldn't have been able to down the Psi Warrior with max damage. I might have had the Iron Shadow give chase immediately if I knew the entire area was lit up.

I do contest that though, for the lighthouse to light up 95 ft. away with dim light (given it's in the middle of the platform and 80 ft. was from the lighthouse itself), that mundane brasero fire would have to be on par with the 3rd level spell Daylight. That feels like a big push, especially since it's 35 ft. in the air in the middle of the platform, that would be lighting up the entire side of the cliffs the lighthouse was on. If fire was that effective at lighting large areas, then it would really beg the question why entire towns and villages aren't lit that way.

I think the Psi Warrior could have pulled this off without any changes to the build regardless, but I do feel like the various changes (how aggressive/careful the Xvarts are, the massive amount of light etc.) are a rather significant change to the scope of the challenge. Particularly since them acting that way just when the PC is awake drastically changes how it has to be handled.

A Shadow Monk with Telekinetic could do the same thing the Psi Warrior did with more safety. They could just mage hand the blindfold down, teleport out, Slow Fall down. With the option of Deflect Missiles as a defense, and a solid 15 ft. per round double dash and a crazy 30 ft. bonus action teleport advantage over the Iron Shadow if a chase happened. They'd be rocketing away at 150ft. per round vs the Iron Shadow's 120 ft.

The only thing that puts me off the Shadow Monk approach, is the high expense/low return on Quickened Healing.




It was a great tactic, though, and a great build as well. Just a couple kinks to work out.

Thanks!

And thanks @Dr.Samurai!

I might do this again with different builds later.

Edit: Oh, thought of an easy solution to the initial problems. More freedom to play with builds!

A question for @Unorginal

I'm currently running a dragonborn drakewarden through the challenge. He held a breath and made it obvious he was awake, catching both Xvarts and the bat in the cone as the came to investigate and smack him around. ( He has Blind Fighting to make this more reasonable)

My question would be, if the only thing that happened was the breath weapon, would that make enough noise to be heard on other floors?

[DruidAlanon]

Don't get me wrong, it's impressive, but it's also an outlier subclass at the best level for the comparison. I also don't think I'd agree that Fighter is the melee class either, they're a blank canvas. If you wanted to label a class the melee class, it'd be the Barbarian, because they're so heavily pushed into melee by their features.


I don't mind repeating for levels 3-7. It'll be evident how Moon looses melee power progressively while it's spellcasting starts to take over.



It definitely gets more interesting when using shapes for more than just meat.


yep.



Wait, how is a Tortle getting a +4 Wisdom at 1st level?


oops. +5 and 1d8 +3.



I get the argument, and clearly it's not an issue for you, but resting after doing any little thing can be a real problem at some tables.

Common sense helps alot with these things. If a big battle is expected then a short rest helps. If not 1 WS will do the job. Augury can also give a hint from DM and justify a rest.




I think it's a reasonable justification, Druid players should just be prepared to discuss desired forms with their DM, espeically oddball ones like dinosaurs.

Indeed. For instance, in my current game I know they exist but I haven't met one yet. Fair enough.




Extra Attack is certainly a big milestone, but subclasses can also be drastic shifts. For example, the number of rounds the Fighter survives in that example from earlier increases significantly if the Figher is using their reaction to reduce damage.

Indeed.




A nice build, my comments:

- You seem to just be adding Polymorph as additional HP like Wild Shape, but they're very, very different transformations.
- You say good mentals, but really that means just good Wisdom. Charisma is hard dumped to 8 and Int is only a 12, with no skill profs in any Int or Cha skills
- It's not a very good healer, it's a healer. It has no features that offer additional healing, or features that enhance healing spells. It just gets to pick up the same healing spells any Druid can, but specifically went for Healing Word over Cure Wounds. Given that shifting is a bonus action, it would make sense to either have both, or lean on the one that does more healing.
- When talking about scouting you mention Stealth prof and Wildshape, I'm not sure if you meant them separately, but you don't get to add your skill profs to shapes. Given that most shapes won't have Stealth prof and certainly won't have high/max Dex, even with PwT their results aren't spectacular considering the very high investment cost.


-They are; I understand how polymorph works. I added a good Polymorph option to HP just to compare with Fighter at level 7.
- Cha saves are very rare. Only true issue I see is something like Banishment but this won't be important for most levels up to lvl 7. Wis saves though are quite important and 12 int + prof to saves is not that bad.
- It's as good as any Druid, which is very decent, consistent healing. And also has revify which is the only option to ressurect at these levels. Given that a moon doesn't spam spells usually, there will always be Goodberries left at the end of each day.
- I meant that the druid can cast pass without trace, wildshape into a spider and be the best scout in the party. Either a cat or spider, have +4 stealth so +14 and no tracking is not bad and comes with minimum investment (2nd lvl spell + 1ws). A bat would be good option with keen hearing and +12 but here we max lvl7. An octopus at +14 is also a very decent underwater scouting choice.



Have you ever considered a Gem dragonborn Moon Druid? Telepathy, but you also get to fly in any shape and breath energy. Mega bear, basically.

Not really, as a player I'm very new to the class, I've just started playing my frist druid (spores) a couple weeks ago. Thi gem dragonborn guy dude has neat racial options.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah, I'd update it. If that's how you envision it going, makes sense to put it there.

I'll update it a bit later with how I consider the different NPCs would behave, then.


I'll reply in spoiler to stop challenge details being generally seen:


This didn't matter in effect because one made it, but this was me thinking whether two drunk and ill-disciplined Xvarts would notice the blindfold at all (I didn't really think the bat would notice a small detail like that in blindsight with no obvious cues to make it happen). Not really fussed on this part since it didn't end up mattering (they put it back up) and they noticed anyway.




I think this is mismatched expectations:


- I didn't get the sense that guards that felt comfortable drinking and slacking off would be that careful about the PC waking up (and no guidance about them just being awake was given), especially since 95% of precautions were still in place and the one thing not in place was immediately rectified.

- The Xvarts are not only drunk and ill-disciplined, but their mental stats are also absolutely terrible across the board for a humanoid. Drunk, their passive perception would be 3 nevermind the quality of their decision-making with a -1 Int and -2 Wis.

Indeed, I should have made my expectations clear from the get-go. I apologize.

I hope the explanation in the edits will be sufficient to




If this would have been a case of Sleight of Hand to hide the attempt to slip out of the shackles (I just assumed it was visible) then the build has a +7 Sleight of Hand and the same for Stealth, with passives to beat of 3 (Xvarts) and 11 (Bat) with Lucky on hand I feel pretty comfortable with those odds. Which would have just made everything easier, since the first turn of initiative wouldn't have burnt an action on escaping.

I think I misspoke a bit.

Slipping out of the shackles would definitively be visible, as the Bat is watching intently.




I had the Xvarts give chase and attack and the Duergar go to get the Iron Shadow/alert the rest. With 25 ft. movement speed I don't think they could even get to the bottom floor with a Dash. Shouting could certainly alert the Hobs below, but the Iron Shadow is outside of a reinforced door, so I figured that something very, very loud or the door being opened.

I understand I didn't explain the releveant part in the challenge, correcting it ASAP.




In terms of noticing the landing, that's something I considered the lighting for, they only have a passive of 12 and darkvision of 60 ft. Automatically knowing that the PC landed in a controlled manner (with their fly speed) 80 ft. away in the dark where they couldn't be seen even if they looked seemed a stretch.[/SPOILER]

Ah, I see. I'm more of the "unless there is something to cancel/conceal the sound or the being is attempting stealth, the other persons around can hear them moving enough to roughly know their location" school.




They can keep up if they double dash, but... that's all they can do as both would have a speed of 120 ft. They could use their darts, but that would open up the gap and be at disadvantage since dart only have a 20ft. normal range.

Very true.




I do contest that though, for the lighthouse to light up 95 ft. away with dim light (given it's in the middle of the platform and 80 ft. was from the lighthouse itself), that mundane brasero fire would have to be on par with the 3rd level spell Daylight. That feels like a big push, especially since it's 35 ft. in the air in the middle of the platform, that would be lighting up the entire side of the cliffs the lighthouse was on. If fire was that effective at lighting large areas, then it would really beg the question why entire towns and villages aren't lit that way.

You know, you are absolutely correct.

Would "bright light for the whole top floor, and dim light on 35ft around that" be more reasonable?




I think the Psi Warrior could have pulled this off without any changes to the build regardless, but I do feel like the various changes (how aggressive/careful the Xvarts are, the massive amount of light etc.) are a rather significant change to the scope of the challenge. Particularly since them acting that way just when the PC is awake drastically changes how it has to be handled.


I agree your build would have succeeded anyway, yes, just a bit more roughed up/with more ressource spent.



Edit: Oh, thought of an easy solution to the initial problems. More freedom to play with builds!

A question for @Unorginal

I'm currently running a dragonborn drakewarden through the challenge. He held a breath and made it obvious he was awake, catching both Xvarts and the bat in the cone as the came to investigate and smack him around. ( He has Blind Fighting to make this more reasonable)

My question would be, if the only thing that happened was the breath weapon, would that make enough noise to be heard on other floors?

The sound of the breath weapon would be noticeable for the people inside the lighthouse, as would be the sound of the bodies falling on the ground.

But I now realize I had failed to consider what measure the bad guys would take against beings they can see they can't disarm entirely (Dragonborns with their breaths, all the species with naturally enhanced unarmed attacks, etc), so I will have to address that in my edits.

[Eldariel]

I apologize for how long it took, my computer was starting to melt so I had to use my phone to post.

To go with the OP, the PC has to be lvl 7. They face the challenge solo due to the circumstences described under Spoiler.

Point buy or standard array, all the content of all the official 5e books are allowed (aside from PC does not beimg allowed magic items, boons, charms, curses and the like.

The situation:




PC and their group have successfully stolen the MacGuffin from the BBEG's base while said BBEG wasn't home. Sadly, PC fell from the group's vehicle during the escape and got knocked down to 0 HP by the underlings after the landing.

PC awakens 4 hours later, with only 1 HP, after being taken to a lighthouse near the base, which will serve as the PC's cell until the BBEG arrives and deal with them... which they'll do in about 1 hour max.

The lighthouse is a three-stories-high (ground floor, middle floor, top floor) circular stone building standing next to a cliff, with only one metal-reinforced wooden door on the ground floor (currently locked). There are no windows, but the top floor is 360 degrees open (aside from the four pillars holding the roof). Each floor is 45 ft diameter, and connected by steep stairs (only wide enough for 1 Medium humanoid). The ground level stair is in front of the door, on the opposite side of the room, and the stair connecting the middle and top floors is just above the door. It is nighttime, and the light sources are: two candles on ground floor, one lantern in the middle of the middle floor, and a large brasero in the middle of the top floor, its light visible from far away.

PC is blindfolded, gagged, manacled (standard PHB manacles), with the manacles chained to the wall (standard PHB chain), and with their fingers bandaged together to prevent complex movements. They have been thoroughly searched and stripped of any equipment they may have possessed (then had some rags put on them for modesty).

MC is currently under watch by two Xvarts (Volo's), who are drunk thanks to finding the previous lighthouse keeper's stash of booze (treated as the Poisoned condition) and not paying much attention as they sit on either side of the lantern, and a Bat (MM), who was instructed by the Xvarts to keep guarding the PC while they relaxed.

On the top floor, two Scouts (MM) keep a lookout, one watching the sea while another watches the land, both instructed to fire their bows at anything resembling an animal coming into the range of their weapons (a fact the Xvarts warned the local bats and rats about) as well as any unidentified invisible creature they perceive, accompanied by a Duergar Mind Master (Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, but with Common as a third language) whose attention is mostly focused on the stair and the prisoner, as they expect their services to be required to deal with PC.

On the ground floor, three Hobgoblins (MM), a Xvart Speaker (Volo's, speaking Common) and a Bat try to relax, but still keep an ear out in case something happens above them, as they do not wish to incur the BBEG's wrath. Outside of the door, an Hobgoblin Iron Shadow (Volo's) wearing a mask looking like a grinning bearded devil is waiting for the BBEG, with the key for the front door and the key for the manacle in their possession.


The goal is: escape from this lighthouse alive, before the hour is up and the BBEG arrives.


- What's the height of the lighthouse?

About 35ft.

- What action economy would be needed to undo the all the additional stuff (blindfold, gag, bandages)?

I would say for this kind of restrains, the blindfold and the gag are a free item interaction each (provided you have at least one hand free or equivalent), and the bandages take a full action (but taking said action removes it on both hands at once).

- Can you... kick the manacles?

You can, but everyone in the tower would notice something is up (or more) unless the sounds can be completely cancelled or drowned.

- Is it possible to work the blindfold down discreetly whilst restrained?


For that particular restraining and blindfold, I would say "not unless you have some kind of 'move an item without moving yourself' power".

- For Lay on Hands and Healing Hands, can you just touch your other hand (or same hand even) to apply the self heal?

I would rule that the same hand wouldn't work, but any other part of your body would.

- The PC is at 1 HP, do they have all their other resources?


Yes, although if you'd rather have less it is not a problem.

- Is your gear stored somewhere in the lighthouse?

No, the equipment you had is currently being examined in a different location, as your foes are hoping they can use it to start providing some answers to the BBEG when they start demanding to know who took the MacGuffin and where they are.


Alright, I think I added all the necessary informations. If any of you want any more info, I'm happy to add them to the Spoiler section.

So I think I'll just post a bunch of characters that could try and see which are capable. First, a couple of Wizards, then some Druids and a Cleric:

8 Str
16 Dex
15 Con
16 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion
Nature

ASIs:
B. Alert
4. Lucky

Spells:
0. Chill Touch, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Control Flames
1. Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Sleep
2. Misty Step, Web, Pyrotechnics, Invisibility
3. Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell, Phantom Steed
4. Summon Greater Demon, Polymorph

Preparation:
Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Sleep, Web, Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, Hypnotic Pattern, Summon Greater Demon

Familiar:
Bat

8 Str
14 Dex
15 Con
18 Int
10 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
B. Lucky
4. Telekinetic (+1 Int)

Spells:
0. Chill Touch, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Conjure Bonfire, Mage Hand (Telekinetic)
1. Gift of Alacrity, Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Sleep
2. Dragon's Breath, Web, Cloud of Daggers, Rope Trick
3. Fireball, Counterspell, Phantom Steed, Tiny Hut
4. Polymorph, Dimension Door

Preparation:
Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Gift of Alacrity, Silvery Barbs, Web, Cloud of Daggers, Fireball, Counterspell, Dimension Door

Familiar:
Owl

8 Str
14 Dex
17 Con
16 Int
12 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion

ASIs:
4. Moderately Armored (+1 Dexterity)

Spells:
0. Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Fire Bolt
1. Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Feather Fall, Thunderwave, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, False Life
2. Misty Step, Web, Shatter, Rope Trick
3. Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Fly, Tiny Hut
4. Polymorph, Banishment

Preparation:
Shield, Absorb Elements, False Life, Feather Fall, Thunderwave, Misty Step, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Banishment

Familiar:
Owl

8 Str
14 Dex
16 Con
10 Int
18 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Nature
Perception
Insight
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
B. Resilient: Constitution
4. Fey-Touched: Silvery Barbs

Spells:
0. Guidance, Mold Earth, Magic Stone
1. Ice Knife, Goodberry, Cure Wounds, Thunderwave, Healing Word, Silvery Barbs
2. Pass without Trace, Spike Growth, Misty Step
3. Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, Tidal Wave
4. Conjure Woodland Beings

8 Str
14 Dex
18 Con
10 Int
16 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Nature
Perception
Animal Handling
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
4. Resilient: Constitution

Spells:
0. Guidance, Mold Earth, Frostbite
1. Ice Knife, Goodberry, Fog Cloud, Healing Word
2. Pass without Trace, Spike Growth
3. Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, Tidal Wave
4. Conjure Woodland Beings

15 Str
10 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
18 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Athletics
Religion
Perception
Insight
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
B. War Caster
4. Telekinetic

Spells:
0. Guidance, Toll the Dead, Thaumaturgy, Mage Hand [Telekinetic]
1. Healing Word, Sanctuary, Command, Guiding Bolt, [Domain] Sleep, Faerie Fire
2. Silence, Spiritual Weapon, Blindness/Deafness, Aid, [Domain] Moonbeam, See Invisibility
3. Spirit Guardians, Dispel Magic, [Domain] Aura of Vitality, Tiny Hut
4. Death Ward, [Domain] Aura of Life, Greater Invisibility


I think that'll suffice to give us a decent idea though it's probably worth a moment to make some Bards, Sorcs, Warlocks, more Clerics, etc. later. But as I just wrote seven quick casters, I'm tapped out for the moment. Anyways, now reading it, few questions about the scenario:
1. How long ago did we do the heist? Mostly asking WRT Mage Armor: do the builds with Mage Armor still have it up (it has a duration of 8 hours so if the heist started under 4 hours before the capture, it should still be up) or has it expired?

2. How would you rule the interaction between Wild Shape and manacles? Manacles say they can only bind small or medium characters so if the PC turned tiny or large, that probably means he'll just slip out. What about turning into a small or medium creature though? Would the manacles stay on or slip off? I don't think they'd disappear into Wildshape since they're bound to the building and thus aren't strictly a worn item though that's also a murky topic.

3. If the character has a familiar, did he have it in the extradimensional space provided by the spell or is it dead?

4. Does the character know the outside of the lighthouse? That is, was he conscious when he was brought in? Does he know how far the cliff is and what's underneath? In general, how is one to escape the island? It doesn't sound like just escaping the lighthouse should suffice; is there a boat at the shore? How far down is the shore? How large is the area atop the cliff around the lighthouse? Especially for characters with Dimension Door, this obviously matters a great deal.

5. How would the enemies react to the character apparently disappearing? Like turning into a mite and crawling between some rocks or entering a Rope Trick unnoticed and pulling up the rope or Meld into Stoning or some such? Would they be able to figure out what kind of magic was used, would they just search around for an invisible PC, and would they assume the PC teleported away after searching the island?

6. How quickly do the monsters react? If the PC physically just removed the bandages on their hands, would they be attacked on the same turn or the next? That is to say, what's the information relay delay between the bat and the xvarts and how easily does the Mind Mage notice that the PC is doing something?

7. Does the lighthouse contain anything that would pass for a spell focus staff?

8. What's the land material around the lighthouse? Would it count as loose earth for Mold Earth or is it more like some sort of rock or similar? What about the lighthouse itself? Are the walls Climbable if you have a Climb-speed?

EDIT: 9. Are the bats susceptible to being diplomancied/handle animaled by someone capable of speaking with them or other animals? Or are they fiercely loyal to the Xvart?


I assume a couple of the Wizards will likely die; without focus or materials they can't do much (though ironically there should probably be bat guano around for Fireball).

[RogueJK]

Does the lighthouse contain anything that would pass for a Quarterstaff? According to certain sage advice that can act as a spellcasting focus for Druids and Wizards.

While it's reasonable to allow a Spell Focus Staff to potentially be used as a Quarterstaff weapon, not just any quarterstaff/length of wood can be used as a Spell Focus.

An Arcane Focus is defined as "a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells".

So a random staff or broomstick laying around isn't "special" or "designed to channel spell power".


Also, a plain Quarterstaff weapon costs 2 SP, while a Spell Focus Staff costs 5 GP. So even there, we see that the Spell Focus Staff is more ornate/special/valuable than a basic quarterstaff.

[Eldariel]

While it's reasonable to allow an Arcane Focus Staff to potentially be used as a Quarterstaff weapon, not just any quarterstaff/length of wood can be used as an Arcane Focus.

An Arcane Focus is defined as "a special item designed to channel the power of arcane spells".

So a random staff or broomstick laying around isn't "special" or "designed to channel arcane power".


Also, a plain Quarterstaff weapon costs 2 SP, while a Spell Focus Staff costs 5 GP. So even there, we see that the Spell Focus Staff is more ornate/special/valuable than a basic quarterstaff.

Yeah, thanks. I actually intended to delete that question but apparently forgot to; I looked it up before posting and thought I deleted it but apparently didn't. Too much Ctrl+Z; my bad there. The answer says that said foci double as Quarterstaves, not the other way around.

[Dork_Forge]

I grow increasingly tempted to also win via killing everything, the murderhobo inside me would be proud, I guess hard mode it is!

[Eldariel]

I grow increasingly tempted to also win via killing everything, the murderhobo inside me would be proud, I guess hard mode it is!

I'm definitely thinking that's the way I'll go at least initially with the Druids and probably also the Cleric (though the Cleric also has Greater Invisibility so if he gets the action off to Hide he has some chances). The Abjurer Wizard likely has to fight at least to a degree until he can get Fly off (though he'll have a hard time at it; False Life sadly has a material so he doesn't have access to it unless he can get his hands on some of the Xvarts' booze and the biggest issue is getting free enough to start doing things). Not sure if the Vuman Diviner really has much of a shot but he probably has to fight too.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm definitely thinking that's the way I'll go at least initially with the Druids and probably also the Cleric (though the Cleric also has Greater Invisibility so if he gets the action off to Hide he has some chances). The Abjurer Wizard likely has to fight at least to a degree until he can get Fly off (though he'll have a hard time at it; False Life sadly has a material so he doesn't have access to it unless he can get his hands on some of the Xvarts' booze and the biggest issue is getting free enough to start doing things). Not sure if the Vuman Diviner really has much of a shot but he probably has to fight too.

You're expecting to find feathers lying around?

And tbh I can't see any hope for any of the builds you presented except maybe the Druid, but interested to see what you do with it.

[Gignere]

I'm definitely thinking that's the way I'll go at least initially with the Druids and probably also the Cleric (though the Cleric also has Greater Invisibility so if he gets the action off to Hide he has some chances). The Abjurer Wizard likely has to fight at least to a degree until he can get Fly off (though he'll have a hard time at it; False Life sadly has a material so he doesn't have access to it unless he can get his hands on some of the Xvarts' booze and the biggest issue is getting free enough to start doing things). Not sure if the Vuman Diviner really has much of a shot but he probably has to fight too.

Diviner depending on the portents dice might be able to just sleight of hand / persuade his way out if the portent rolls are high enough.

[Dork_Forge]

Diviner depending on the portents dice might be able to just sleight of hand / persuade his way out if the portent rolls are high enough.

...How is that going to be possible with any degree of portent?

[Eldariel]

You're expecting to find feathers lying around?

And tbh I can't see any hope for any of the builds you presented except maybe the Druid, but interested to see what you do with it.

Well, Chronurgist has a decent plan in Telekinetic + Dimension Door out. Druids can Wild Shape and Conjure Animals only has V, S; they can both try to fight or escape. Cleric might be able to turn on Channel Divinity and cast some healing (because Sanctuary has a component that's probably not lying around and he probably has no easy access to holy symbol) and then just try and stack up enough HP to duke it out: it's down to the first hits and whether they knock him out. He has Telekinetic which helps with the bonds. Abjurer Wizard has to get his hands free and just stack up HP I guess. He's got a rough road out.

[Dr.Samurai]

If the rags that were placed on the PC are white, those can be torn to provide the component for Aid perhaps.

[Dork_Forge]

Well, Chronurgist has a decent plan in Telekinetic + Dimension Door out. Druids can Wild Shape and Conjure Animals only has V, S; they can both try to fight or escape. Cleric might be able to turn on Channel Divinity and cast some healing (because Sanctuary has a component that's probably not lying around and he probably has no easy access to holy symbol) and then just try and stack up enough HP to duke it out: it's down to the first hits and whether they knock him out. He has Telekinetic which helps with the bonds. Abjurer Wizard has to get his hands free and just stack up HP I guess. He's got a rough road out.

Druid has the best chance because of WS and minion spam imo

- Cleric needs holy symbol for CD, stacking HP high enough would be hard
- The Wizards need a lot of luck and then the DD one is the best shot, assuming just casting it is a win condition


If the rags that were placed on the PC are white, those can be torn to provide the component for Aid perhaps.

Good shout!

[Dr.Samurai]

Question... in Dork_Forge's example, initiative was rolled when they noticed the fighter was trying to escape.

Judging by Unoriginal's response, it seems like everyone in and around the tower would be alerted once combat began.

So... when initiative is rolled, should we roll initiative for everyone and track their actions each turn?

[Unoriginal]

To go with the OP, the PC has to be lvl 7. They face the challenge solo due to the circumstences described under Spoiler.

Point buy or standard array, all the content of all the official 5e books are allowed (aside from PC does not beimg allowed magic items, boons, charms, curses and the like.

The situation:




PC and their group have successfully stolen the MacGuffin from the BBEG's base while said BBEG wasn't home. Sadly, PC fell from the group's vehicle during the escape and got knocked down to 0 HP by the underlings after the landing.

PC awakens 4 hours later, with only 1 HP, after being taken to a lighthouse near the base, which will serve as the PC's cell until the BBEG arrives and deal with them... which they'll do in about 1 hour max.

The lighthouse is a three-stories-high (ground floor, middle floor, top floor) circular stone building standing next to a cliff, with only one metal-reinforced wooden door on the ground floor (currently locked). There are no windows, but the top floor is 360 degrees open (aside from the four pillars holding the roof). Each floor is 45 ft diameter, and connected by steep stairs (only wide enough for 1 Medium humanoid). The ground level stair is in front of the door, on the opposite side of the room, and the stair connecting the middle and top floors is just above the door. It is nighttime, and the light sources are: two candles on ground floor, one lantern in the middle of the middle floor, and a large brasero in the middle of the top floor, its light visible from far away. The brasero lights the top floor brightly, and light dimly on a 35ft radius further tan that.

PC is blindfolded, gagged, manacled (standard PHB manacles), with the manacles chained to the wall (standard PHB chain), and with their fingers bandaged together to prevent complex movements. The blindfold and the gag takes one free item interaction to remove if at least one hand or equivalent is free, removing the finger bandages takes an action. If the PC is identifiable as a species known for having mouth-based powers (Dragonborns' breaths, Lizardfolk' devastating bites, etc), the underlings have wrapped their jaws shut with more bandages, preventing the use of said powers until it's removed (which takes an action to do). If the PC possesses an identifiable natural weapon (horns, claws, etc),,the underlings have tied bags filled with leather scraps around the appendage (reducing its damages to 'ordinary unarmed strike', and taking a free item interraction to remove) and have chained it to the wall with a short (~1ft) chain. Extra limbs (wings, prehensil tails, etc) that are visible while the PC is unconscious are similarly chained to the wall.

The PC has been thoroughly searched and stripped of any equipment they may have possessed (then had some rags put on them for modesty).

MC is currently under watch by two Xvarts (Volo's), who are drunk thanks to finding the previous lighthouse keeper's stash of booze (treated as the Poisoned condition) and not paying much attention as they sit on either side of the lantern, and a Bat (MM), who was instructed by the Xvarts to keep guarding the PC while they relaxed.

On the top floor, two Scouts (MM) keep a lookout, one watching the sea while another watches the land, both instructed to fire their bows at anything resembling an animal coming into the range of their weapons (a fact the Xvarts warned the local bats and rats about) as well as any unidentified invisible creature they perceive, accompanied by a Duergar Mind Master (Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, but with Common as a third language) whose attention is mostly focused on the stair and the prisoner, as they expect their services to be required to deal with PC.

On the ground floor, three Hobgoblins (MM), a Xvart Speaker (Volo's, speaking Common) and a Bat try to relax, but still keep an ear out in case something happens above them, as they do not wish to incur the BBEG's wrath. Outside of the door, an Hobgoblin Iron Shadow (Volo's) wearing a mask looking like a grinning bearded devil is waiting for the BBEG, with the key for the front door and the key for the manacle in their possession.

Anyone in the lighthouse can hear someone speaking or making noise without issue from one floor appart (so top floor can hear middle floor, middle floor can hear both top floor and ground floor, etc), and everyone can hear shouts/loud noises from any floor. The Iron Shadow can distinctly hear shouts/loud noises from top floor, and in a muffled manner from ground floor.

NPC behavior guidelines:

Bats:

Both Bats stay on the ceiling, fleeing if they think they're in danger. The middle floor Bat keeps its senses on the PC, and reacts to any movement from the PC or around the PC by shouting for the Xarts' attention. They react the same for any action they can link to the PC (ex: if the PC's appearance suddenly changes, if they disappear, or if visible magical energy emanates from them, even if they're not physically moving). They do not react by shouting to things they can't identify as linked to the PC. The Bat on the ground floor is keeping its senses focused on the stairs, and shout to warn every time they can perceive anyone or anything going through that path, be it to go up or down (including if it's someone they know to be an ally doing so in plain view, as the Bat got the concept of the task at hand but not the subtleties).

Drunk Xvarts:
The two drunk Xvarts are ill-disciplined and not the sharpest spoons in the ice cream parlor, but they're not without low cunning and a certain practical (if sometime misguided) perspective when it comes to problem-solving (in contrast to their whimsical problem-making). Furthermore, they are keenly aware they are guarding a scarily powerful individual on the behest of an even more scarily powerful individual (drinking some booze to sooth their nerves seemed like a good idea at the time, and since it seemed like an even better idea after doing it they kept doing it until the bottle got empty), and that their survival depends on the PC not escaping.

If they notice the PC moving or something strange happening (of if the Bat warn them of such), they shout to warn the rest of the lighthouse (even if only the Bats and the Xvart Speaker can understand them) as they get up from their chairs, go to be on the left and the right of the prisoner, and whack said prisoner until they're back to unconsciousness (choosing to be nonlethal). If they both miss with their first attacks, or if none of their attacks seem to KO the PC, one of the Xvarts use the Help action as the other attack. If the PC manages to break loose and attempts to go away, both Xvart attempt to get to them and shove them to the ground, and if the PC gets on the ground attack them there (unless the PC has become too big for shoving, in which case they just attack the PC, likely with their slings).

If the PC disappears (or seems so) without the Bat or the Xvarts being able to tell were they went, both shout to warn the rest of the people in the lighthouse of that fact, and one of the Xvarts goes to where the prisoner was chained and attempts to strike and poke at the space with their short sword, then try to wave the sword around the room to make sure no one is there, while the other stays near the center with their loaded sling in hand and use the Ready action to attack anything other than one of their allies that moves or appears within the Xvart's perception range.

The Xvarts will always use Low Cunning to bonus action Disengage away from the enemy if they can, unless they're sure the PC has been neutralized or if doing so would mean letting the PC escape. However, they prefer getting out of the way but close enough to attempt an Opportunity Attack than stand in the PC's way, hoping the PC would hesitate between attacking them or letting themselves open while fleeing.

The intense stress from the situation causes the Xvart to sober up at the end of the second turn after they notice the PC is awake/the PC has disappeared, ending the Poisoned condition on them.

Xvart Speaker:

The Xvart Speaker translates anything the other Xvarts or the Bats say into Common, and anything said in Common by the others into Abyssal, shouting if the one they're translating is shouting. If they're told something is happening on the middle floor, or if they notice something is amiss (ex: an unidentified noise), they go up the stair as fast as possible. If the PC is attempting to escape, the Speaker attacks them when they can, attempting to shove them if the PC looks like they're fast enough to get out of the lighthouse on this round (and otherwise using their shortsword).

If the Speaker is warned of the PC's apparent disappearance, or notices it, they will take the Use an Item action to tear open a bag of flour and take the time to spread the content around in clouds of flour, starting with the floor between the two stairs and where the PC was chained up, then moving to the rest of the floor and finally the walls, figuring that it'll help noticing something invisible in that area.

Scouts:

The two scouts do not leave the top floor unless ordered to by the Mind Master. If they hear a warning from their allies or a commotion beneath, they move to stand on either side of the stair, 10ft from it, and Ready action to attack anything they can perceive except an ally who identifies themselves as such while raising empty hands above their heads that gets up the stairs (or simply use this opening).

While fighting, their favored tactics is to stay far enough of each other that a single opponent can't try to melee with the both of them at once, the one being targeted in close quarter doing their best to get out of that situation while the other fires at their opponent.

Duergar Mind Master:

If warned that the prisoner is waking up or disappeared, or if they notice a commotion below, the Duergar Mind Master goes partway down the stairs to block as much of the path as possible, dagger in hand. If a fight is going on, they will attempt to Mind-Poison Dagger then Mind Mastery on the PC if they're close enough, or just Mind Mastery otherwise, ordering the PC to move 10ft into the direction that is the most perilous for them (in particular if that ends up with the PC surrounded by a group of enemies) or the furthest away from an escape point if there is no danger.

If the PC has seemingly disappeared, they will scan the room using their truesight and WIS (Perception), first from their spot on the stairs and then from the center of the room if the first was not enough, and if it still wield no result they'll do the same to the bottom floor. They inform their allies of what they're doing all the while, giving orders dispassionately if they find nothing and being extremely smug if they do.

If the PC shows up on the top floor unexpectedly, the Mind Master shouts to their allies of the fact, then attempts to attack the PC and use Mind Mastery on them. If the PC is within 10 feet of the brasero, the Mind Master orders them to move into the fire. If not, the Mind Master orders them to

Hobgoblins

If the Hobgoblins hear that PC has woken up or disappeared, or hear something suspicious, two of them get up the stairs while the third stays in the middle of the room, relaying any information they learn to the Iron Shadow outside, and Readying an action to attack anything that goes down the stairs (or stairs opening) without identifying themselves as one of their allies while raising their empty hands above their head.

On the middle floor, the Hobgoblins object to the Xvarts roughing up the PC if the PC is still bound and still conscious when they arrives, as they hope to impress the (supposed) hopelessness of the situation on PC and obtain a formal surrender while they all wait for the BBEG. If the PC is not bound, the hobgoblins attack, favoring attacking the PC if they can identify them.

If the PC has disappeared, the Hobgoblins are not sure how to contribute, but one of them provides the Help action to anyone who is currently searching (prioritizing the Mind Master if several people are doing so) while the other walks around the room in a regimented fashion, trying to see if they can walk into anything that wouldn't be otherwise perceivable.

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow:

If the Iron Shadow hears that the PC is escaping by going to the ground floor, or has disappeared, they will trust their ally, use Silent Image to hide the door (making it appear like just like any other stone wall section to the people inside the room), attempt to stealth next to the door and get ready to attack whoever or whatever goes through it.

If they hear the PC is going to the top floor, however, they will cast Expeditious Retreat, climb the lighthouse, and multiattack the PC as directly as possible.


The PC's goal is: escape from this lighthouse alive, before the hour is up and the BBEG arrives.


- What's the height of the lighthouse?

About 35ft.

- What action economy would be needed to undo the all the additional stuff (blindfold, gag, bandages)?

I would say for this kind of restrains, the blindfold and the gag are a free item interaction each (provided you have at least one hand free or equivalent), and the bandages take a full action (but taking said action removes it on both hands at once).

- Can you... kick the manacles?

You can, but everyone in the tower would notice something is up (or more) unless the sounds can be completely cancelled or drowned.

- Is it possible to work the blindfold down discreetly whilst restrained?


For that particular restraining and blindfold, I would say "not unless you have some kind of 'move an item without moving yourself' power".

- For Lay on Hands and Healing Hands, can you just touch your other hand (or same hand even) to apply the self heal?

I would rule that the same hand wouldn't work, but any other part of your body would.

- The PC is at 1 HP, do they have all their other resources?


Yes, although if you'd rather have less it is not a problem.

- Is your gear stored somewhere in the lighthouse?

No, the equipment you had is currently being examined in a different location, as your foes are hoping they can use it to start providing some answers to the BBEG when they start demanding to know who took the MacGuffin and where they are.


1. How long ago did we do the heist? Mostly asking WRT Mage Armor: do the builds with Mage Armor still have it up (it has a duration of 8 hours so if the heist started under 4 hours before the capture, it should still be up) or has it expired?

The group fleeing the heist's site was 4 hours ago, and the heist started 1 hour prior to that.

However, the BBEG's underlings definitively had someone use Detect Magic and Dispel Magic until everything that was dispellable was dispelled before bringing the PC to the lighthouse.

2. How would you rule the interaction between Wild Shape and manacles? Manacles say they can only bind small or medium characters so if the PC turned tiny or large, that probably means he'll just slip out. What about turning into a small or medium creature though? Would the manacles stay on or slip off? I don't think they'd disappear into Wildshape since they're bound to the building and thus aren't strictly a worn item though that's also a murky topic.

I would rule that you can slip out of manacles if you become smaller, however the manacles stay on if your new form is the same size as the one they locked the manacles on, and you simply cannot become bigger.

3. If the character has a familiar, did he put have it in the extradimensional space provided by the spell or is it dead?

I would say the Familiar was out of the extradimensional space before the PC was captured, and had to flee with the rest of the group, which is currently is far away and trying to make the underlings pursuing them lose the trail.

But you could make a run without the familiar and one with them, to see how much impact it has.

4. Does the character know the outside of the lighthouse? That is, was he conscious when he was brought in? Does he know how far the cliff is and what's underneath? In general, how is one to escape the island? It doesn't sound like just escaping the lighthouse should suffice; is there a boat at the shore? How far down is the shore? How large is the area atop the cliff around the lighthouse? Especially for characters with Dimension Door, this obviously matters a great deal.

The lighthouse is not on an island, it's on the shoreline of the mainland, a short distance away from the base the PC's group raided.

The cliff is about 80ft tall and ends up directly into the sea. There's a fishing village with a small harbor within 40min of walking from the lighthouse.

It can be assumed the PC's group scouted around the lighthouse during the preparations for the heist.

However, the PC was not conscious when brought in the lighthouse, nor have they been inside, so they would need to at least see the environment out of the lighthouse (from the top floor, for example, or if they go out by the front door) to be able to say where they are.

5. How would the enemies react to the character apparently disappearing? Like turning into a mite and crawling between some rocks or entering a Rope Trick unnoticed and pulling up the rope or Meld into Stoning or some such? Would they be able to figure out what kind of magic was used, would they just search around for an invisible PC, and would they assume the PC teleported away after searching the island?

6. How quickly do the monsters react? If the PC physically just removed the bandages on their hands, would they be attacked on the same turn or the next? That is to say, what's the information relay delay between the bat and the xvarts and how easily does the Mind Mage notice that the PC is doing something?


I'll answer 5. and 6. in the "how NPCs behave" section above (still WIP).

7. Does the lighthouse contain anything that would pass for a spell focus staff?

Nope.

8. What's the land material around the lighthouse? Would it count as loose earth for Mold Earth or is it more like some sort of rock or similar? What about the lighthouse itself? Are the walls Climbable if you have a Climb-speed?


The cliff where the lighthouse itself is is rock, but the ground becomes earth around 50ft inland, and outside of the dirt road leading to the lighthouse it does count as loose earth.

The stone brick walls of the lighthouse are climbable even without a climb speed.

9. Are the bats susceptible to being diplomancied/handle animaled by someone capable of speaking with them or other animals? Or are they fiercely loyal to the Xvart?

The Bats are susceptible to being animal handled/diplomacied (the latter by someone capable of speaking with them or other animals). They are not fiercly loyaly to the Xvarts, but obey them due to being fed daily and generously in exchange for their services, and that relationship existed for a good while. They also are at least initially hostile to the PC due to the Xvarts warning them the PC was a cornered, wounded predator who would attack the Xvarts if they managed to escape.


Here's the more complete Challenge, with all the info I could think about.



So... when initiative is rolled, should we roll initiative for everyone and track their actions each turn?

It's possible for a PC to not be noticed by the enemies, or interrupt an enemy before they can warn the rest.

The way I see it, what works best is:

-Initiative for the character is rolled when the character notices/is informed something is happening, and not before.

-Actions are tracked each turn once the initiative for this particular character has been rolled.

That way you could end up with zero, all or anything in-between number of initiatives being rolled.

[Eldariel]

Okay, so let's do this:


8 Str
16 Dex
15 Con
16 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion
Nature

ASIs:
B. Alert
4. Lucky

Spells:
0. Chill Touch, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Control Flames
1. Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Sleep
2. Misty Step, Web, Pyrotechnics, Suggestion
3. Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell, Phantom Steed
4. Summon Greater Demon, Polymorph

Preparation:
Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Web, Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Summon Greater Demon

Familiar:
Bat
Vuman Diviner has a pretty terrible set of abilities for this. Spells that don't have components or have components that are potentially accessible (in parentheses):
0: Chill Touch, Mold Earth, Minor Illusion, Control Flames.
1: Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, [Mage Armor; Cured Leather from leather armor worn by i.a. Xvarts, Duergar Mind Master & Scouts], [Sleep; there's probably a pinch of sand somewhere around an old lighthouse]
2: Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, [Web; strand of spider web from probably any corner of the lighthouse]
3: Counterspell

Further, for most spells he needs to get both the bindings (1 action), mouth (1 free item interaction) and eyes (1 free item interaction) free but he has a hard time doing that. Good news is that Find Familiar states you can send the familiar to the demiplane (from anywhere so even if it escaped with the party, as long as it exists, this works) and a second one to insert it anywhere within 30' of him: those don't have any but mental actions assigned to them.

Portent rolls: 8, 2. Would be awesome for a normal situation but for this situation? I'd need those high rolls, thank you very much.

So he'll plop his familiar (a bat, as per his Pyrotechnics spell: only flying blindsighted familiar option) right next to himself about 10' in front of him (I think he knows where the wall is based on the manacles and the chain) and look around getting telepathic information of the environment. I don't think this would provoke an alert from the bat as it's another bat; at least it should be curious enough to converse with the new arrival, especially given there is another bat in the house. Nor should it provoke a reaction from anybody else since the Xvarts are drunk and barely paying attention, there is a second bat in the house and I don't think they'd care about the bats discussing between themselves; they are under directions to alert the Xvarts if something important happens after all. Also since the guard bat is using sonar constantly (keeping his senses constantly alert for the PC), the use of sonar should also do nothing special.

As soon as he realizes the existence of the guard Bat, the familiar will try and convince it to help with a promise of more food down the line while taking item interaction to lower the blindfold a bit so that the PC can see (first lowering the Blindfold to enable the Diviner to use Portents). As he's also aware of the Xvarts, he'll try to be quiet enough to not alert the Xvarts (I think Bat's "Deception" vs. Xvarts' "Passive Perception" at advantage (and disadvantage cancelling out) because they understand bat speech sounds fair enough; I would say DC 15 Persuasion check for the Bat familiar to convince the Bat to help [sounds like Moderate given they are the same species and the guard Bat has no reason to either doubt or believe them], DC 10 to do nothing), but I think they'll be more alert anyways meaning the PC actions will trigger. Basically I think in this case his best case scenario is just getting his hands free, removing the eye

Bat rolls: 13 for Deception, 5 for Persuasion. ****. Lucky is personal and Portents were too low to be of help anyways; Silvery Barbs has V components and the mouth is still blocked. Xvarts do not really pay attention but the Bat is not helping; in fact, it warns the Xvarts that it's suspicious of the new arrival.

Roll Initiative:
NPC Bat: 9
Familiar: 11
Diviner: Use Portent on own Initiative to roll a 2 (thus a total of 10 with his +8) - he has no real chance if he goes before the Bat. Conveniently this lets him go right after.
Xvart: Disadvantage due to Poisoned, rolls of 16 and 2; so 4

Initiative order:
Familiar
Diviner
Bat
Xvart

For now, others aren't active yet. Familiar removes the gag as an item interaction and takes an action to remove the bandages on hands.

Diviner acts, uses bonus action to Misty Step out of the manacles up the stairs, moves upstairs picking up fine sand if there is any to be had as an item interaction, and moves to the wall next to one Scout taking the Dodge-action. This adds Duergar Mindmaster, Scouts & Hobgoblin Iron Shadow to the Initiative as they hear the spell being cast as well as everyone from the first floor. As the Duergar is "watching the PC intently", he probably should get to act on this turn yet.

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow: 21
Hobgoblin: 17
Scout: 12
Xvart Speaker: 7
Duergar Mindmaster: 6

Initiative order:
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow
Hobgoblin
Scout
Familiar
Diviner
Bat
Xvart Speaker
Duergar Mindmaster
Xvart


Bat dashes up too yelling alerts. Mindmaster moves to the PC and attacks at Disadvantage (likely better than Mind Mastery knowing that the PC is a Wizard specifically). Lots of rolls follow so I'm only posting die rolls (Mind Master & Iron Shadow are +5, Xvarts & Scouts are +4, Hobgoblins are +3):
9/4 and 12/9: with Shield cast AC is 18, the attacks fail

Xvarts also move up and attack at disadvantage:
5/2 and 11/1. Both miss.

Up from the top, Hobgoblin Iron Shadow casts Expeditious Retreat, climbs up and attacks 4 times:
18/3
14/6
12/8
20/16

Last one threatens a hit. Lucky to reroll:
10

Okay, still alive somehow. Hobgoblins rush up the stairs to see what the commotion is about. They can't quite get to attack since it's 35' up and their move is only 30'. Instead they dash next to the PC to threaten an opportunity attack. Scouts attack:
15/8
19/6
8/10
18/6

Still no hit.

Familiar dashes up to fly out with the PC. Probably gets killed by OA.

Diviner Misty Steps down to the height of 5' diagonally 30', moves 30' and he's on dirt now. Mold Earth to create himself a 5' hole with a 5' obstacle in the direction of the lighthouse. This should provide total cover from the enemies in the lighthouse save for the Iron Shadow.

All the enemies aside from Duergar Mind Master merely ready an action to fire at the Wizard should he appear. Hobgoblin Iron Shadow uses Shadow Jaunt to reach 5' off the bottom of the lighthouse and rushes at the Wizard's hideout attacking in melee:

Iron Shadow:
1
1
16 forcing Lucky and Shield: 2
14 forcing Lucky: 6

Now, if he had found fine sand he'd have a reasonable shot at Sleeping the Hobgoblin. I'll roll a d100 with a 50% chance (above 50 for sand - it doesn't seem unreasonable on a shore building from boots or on the road or whatever): 81

Okay, so he was able to pick up sand in the lighthouse or on the outside while running. Therefore he casts Sleep from a level 4 slot:
60

Iron Shadow falls asleep. Duergar Mind Master dashes climbing down of the lighthouse. He's 60' off. Rest keep their readied action. Diviner breathes deep, Misty Steps 30' away, volley (at disadvantage due to 90' being outside the tower residents' line of sight):
Use 8 on Portent on the first Xvart.
6/12
19/4

Hobgoblins:
16/11
13/12
8/5

Scouts:
1/20
18/15 (+4 for 19 which exceeds the AC of 18)

And that's dead. It was fairly close: I think it's reasonable to claim that if he got to move out of sight range and Hide, he'd have a shot. But Lucky ran out too early and having to take those 4 attacks from Hobgoblin Iron Shadow without disadvantage was just too much. Worth noting that if he had Mage Armor up, he'd have been fine (AC of 21 at disadvantage is already pretty rough: Lucky would've largely been spared even). Then again, without Sleep he would've just gotten run down by the Iron Shadow so that's also down to DM decision (in this case, with no further info, I just used a percentile die as I would in my own game to determine random plausible factors).

It's also possible to rule that as the PC is outside the monster view range after the Misty Step, they can't attack accurately or that the PC could Hide first and Misty Step then in which case I think he has a reasonable chance of escaping: he just needs one-two more turns to get to reasonable cover. But I think this is the closest to RAW where people tend to be daredevils more or less.

Still, I think this demonstrates the power of Alert (so seeing the attackers doesn't matter; very relevant for a character without Darkvision) + Lucky + high AC + Disadvantage (Pyrotechnics, Dodge, etc.). However, you can't of course rely on it forever. The Iron Shadow was definitely the crux in this run: can't run, can't hide, have to deal with him somehow but just don't have the actions to. No Dodge = death.
Result: Death (ranged weapons can't be used to knock unconscious - surprisingly good run though, got really close)


8 Str
14 Dex
15 Con
18 Int
10 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
B. Lucky
4. Telekinetic (+1 Int)

Spells:
0. Chill Touch, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Conjure Bonfire, Mage Hand (Telekinetic)
1. Gift of Alacrity, Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Sleep
2. Dragon's Breath, Web, Cloud of Daggers, Rope Trick
3. Fireball, Counterspell, Phantom Steed, Tiny Hut
4. Polymorph, Dimension Door

Preparation:
Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Gift of Alacrity, Silvery Barbs, Web, Cloud of Daggers, Fireball, Counterspell, Dimension Door

Familiar:
Owl
CLineage Chronurgist is probably the easiest run. Basically just:
0: Chill Touch, Mold Earth, Minor Illusion, Conjure Bonfire, Mage Hand
1: Gift of Alacrity, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, [Mage Armor; Cured Leather from leather armor worn by i.a. Xvarts, Duergar Mind Master & Scouts]
2: Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, [Web; strand of spider web from probably any corner of the lighthouse], [Cloud of Daggers; a sliver of glass sounds feasible in an old lighthouse given the beacon, whisky bottles, etc. should contain glass]
3: Counterspell, [Fireball; Bat guano is obviously available if there are bats and it contains sulfur natively]
4: Dimension Door

First, plop in and plop out the Owl. In this case, I think he wants to plop it outside the Wall since he knows there's a wall next to him and he at least has a small amount of time to look through the familiars eyes; since the Owl appears in the middle of the tower, I think there's a reasonable shot that the Scouts don't notice it since they're probably looking up or to the middle. Scouts have Passive Perception of 20 for sight and hearing (holy **** that's high), Owls have a Stealth of +3 so let's roll:
Stealth: 15

Owl is heard. So Initiative.
Owl: 16
Scout: 10
Chronurgist: 9

Owl takes a lookaround and telepathically informs the Wizard of the surrounding area (120' darkvision so it should have a reasonable chance. Scouts look for the owl from the sides, notice it, and pincushion it:
First attack: 22. Down goes the Owl.

However, the Wizard does have information of the surroundings now. Crucially he hasn't yet had to move or take any visible actions. Telekinetic lets him summon an invisible Mage Hand to take off his gag and he casts Dimension Door towards the exit and 500' off inland. Takes off his stuff effortlessly and escapes while the captors are left wondering what the **** just happened (I'd rule that 500' is too far for the Iron Shadow to reasonably realize that the PC is there especially since he'll try to act stealthily - rolled Stealth in case for a total of 24 so he should be just fine).
Result: Escape


8 Str
14 Dex
17 Con
16 Int
12 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion

ASIs:
4. Moderately Armored (+1 Dexterity)

Spells:
0. Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Fire Bolt
1. Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Feather Fall, Thunderwave, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, False Life
2. Misty Step, Web, Shatter, Rope Trick
3. Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Fly, Tiny Hut
4. Polymorph, Banishment

Preparation:
Shield, Absorb Elements, False Life, Feather Fall, Thunderwave, Misty Step, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Banishment

Familiar:
Owl
This is pretty rough since he's an item user normally. He doesn't have weapon for Booming Blade nor armor and shield he has invested a race and a feat into. Still, he has Abjuration Ward, a decent set of utility spells, some ranged magic and a functional AOE in Thunderwave. If he had Fireball too I think he'd be golden but alas, he has Hypnotic Pattern instead meaning he has to get up to peoples' faces to kill them. Here's for figuring out how he'd do:
0: Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Fire Bolt
1: Shield, Absorb Elements, Thunderwave, [False Life; alcohol are obviously available based on the condition of the Xvarts: most likely a bottle close to them], [Feather Fall; otherwise a lost cause but Owl familiar does have feathers]
2: Misty Step
3: Counterspell, [Fly; as earlier, Owl familiar]
4: [Banishment; maybe something distasteful to the enemies might be available]

As others, he'll begin by sending his familiar to the pocket plane and then summoning it. As he's not able to teleport out, he'll summon it inside like the Diviner. Bat is not directed to tell of anything but changes with the PC and this one being linked to the PC is impercetible.

Either way, I think the Xvarts will rather quickly notice the Owl since there's nothing to hide in. Still, I think the PC will have a round's worth of time to look around with the familiar's eyes as the bat is in a situation it wasn't instructed on and the xvarts are still drunk and not paying that much attention. Probably just an initiative roll as the Owl is summoned:
Owl: 12
Xvart: 10
Abjurer: 12

Owl gives the abjurer quick telepathic information dump and helps the abjurer to first open his mouth and unbind his hands (free action + action). The Wizard needs Verbals. Unfortunately for him that leaves his eyes still bound which means he can't Misty Step. He needs to buy another turn, to which end he readies level 3 Thunderwave on the two Xvarts should they come in range (they're barely out of range initially, being 20' away with Thunderwave having a 15' range).

Xvarts yell that there's a fishy bird bhere doing all sorts of stuff and seeing that the Wizard's gag is removed they move up to him to clobber him to unconsciousness as directed. This triggers level 3 Thunderwave:
1, 8, 7, 2 for 18 damage meanings the Xvart die with a huge boom. Now everyone is immediately alerted by the huge boom:
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow: 16
Xvart Speaker: 11
Scouts: 10
Hobgoblin: 8
Duergar Mind Master: 4

Iron Shadow trusts his minions as stated earlier. Owl frees the Abjurer's eyes and Abjurer Misty Steps out to the far side of the room picking up a feather from the owl as a free action (Owl doesn't necessarily quite like it) and near the booze bottles. He then takes the Dodge action given no reasonable targets.

Xvart Speaker climbs up and tries to sling the Wizard:
9/16 meaning 13 so Shield is cast and Arcane Ward activates for 13 points of defense.

Two Hobgoblins get up and have longswords and shields ready but can't reach him to attack. Instead they dash on either side of the PC for opportunity attacks. Scouts ready attacks at either side of the stairs and the Mind Master turns invisible and moves down the stairs.

Abjurer moves 5' back so that both Hobgoblins are within 15' of it in the front and casts Thunderwave on 3 on the Hobgoblins: 2, 3, 6, 6 for 17. Hobgoblins thus get a save; one rolls 10, other rolls 15. One alive at 3 HP, one dead.

Xvart speaker attacks again moving into melee to give Hobgoblin Martial Advantage: 8, miss.

Hobgoblin calls his mate from the lower level for help and attacks with Longsword: 18, hit with martial advantage for:
2, 5, 4 +1 = 12

Arcane Ward down to 1 HP.

Duergar Mind Master moves up to the Wizard, attacks (first at advantage), and calls the Scouts for help:
19
25 (critical hit)

The Wizard is thoroughly knocked down. Needed Lucky here to have much of a chance, or one more turn to cast Fly or False Life; Fireball might've also saved him as it has a big enough AOE and damage to kill most enemies but alas, this one has CC and utility picks for 3rd level and Hypnotic Pattern does not have a reasonably accessible component.
Result: Prisoner permanently (knocked unconscious)


8 Str
14 Dex
16 Con
10 Int
18 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Nature
Perception
Insight
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
B. Resilient: Constitution
4. Fey-Touched: Silvery Barbs

Spells:
0. Guidance, Mold Earth, Magic Stone
1. Ice Knife, Goodberry, Cure Wounds, Thunderwave, Healing Word, Silvery Barbs
2. Pass without Trace, Spike Growth, Misty Step
3. Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, Tidal Wave
4. Conjure Woodland Beings
Time for something different! Let's Druid it up!

0. Guidance, Mold Earth, [Magic Stone; stones are probably available somewhere]
1. Thunderwave, Goodberry, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Silvery Barbs,
2. Misty Step
3. Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, [Tidal Wave; a drop of water is probably available on a seaside hill]

Here the big issue is getting rid of the restraints. Using Wild Companion would require V and S components and there's no Telekinetic either. That means the only real option is using Wild Shape. I think turning into something extremely small and trying to hide with that is the highest probability strategy: however, that is very DM-dependent so I'll try and fight it out with combat forms.

Wild Shape says "[i]You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it." - obviously I'll choose that my "equipment" falls to the ground to get rid of the restraints. I think this means Manacles should also fall off when I use the ability regardless of the size of my new form unless I choose to "wear them" (I think this is obvious when thinking about turning into e.g. a Snake or whatever - there's no way for limb-based items to be worn by such a creature).

I'll start off by turning into a Giant Poisonous Snake. Initiative is rolled as the Xvarts certainly notice "something" is up:
Xvart: 18 (in spite of disadvantage, holy hell!)
Druid: 15

Xvart switch to slings in the face of a large (large as an adjective, size is medium) poisonous snake.
Attacks:
11
5

Both miss. Xvarts yell the alert.
Duergar Mind Master: 23
Scout: 21
Xvart Speaker: 11
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow: 5
Hobgoblin: 4


Druid takes bonus action to shift back to humanoid form, moves to position to see up and down the stairs, and casts Conjure Animals for 8x CR 1/4 creature. To keep it fair, rolling randomly out of the CR 1/4 creatures (36 in my database) on a d36 (thanks Roll20) from:
Giant Bat
Axe Beak
Diatryma
Draft Horse
Giant Lizard
Giant Riding Lizard
Hadrosaurus
Dimetrodon
Giant Frog
Guthash
Cow
Ox
Rothé
Stench Kow
Elk
Golden Stag
Riding Horse
Yak
Zebra
Deep Rothé
Giant Badger
Pteranodon
Small Drake
Giant Poisonous Snake
Boar
Giant Centipede
Hellwasp Grub
Velociraptor
Panther
Giant Wolf Spider
Sled Dog
Wolf
Fastieth
Giant Owl
Maxeene
Awakened Elk

13 (Rothé)

Spawn 3 Rothés (19 HP thanks to Mighty Summons) over 20' from the Xvarts (Xvarts are on the far side of the room), 2 downstairs with one blocking the stairs and 3 upstairs with one blocking the stairs. Orders given: charge the armed humanoids to the rest, the two at the stairs are told to defend the stairs. Rothé Initiative:
4

Initiative order:
Duergar Mind Master
Scout
Xvart
Druid
Xvart Speaker
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow
Hobgoblin
Rothé

Xvart Speaker quickly relays the alert to the Hobgoblins though they don't exactly require help figuring things out when two bovines appear in front of them. He then proceeds to club the Rothé closer to Hobgoblins moving next to it:
10 hits for 6 (4+2) damage. Rothé down to 13.

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow still trusts his allies but casts the Silent Image. Hobgoblins move to attack with their Longswords trying to cut their way to the upper floor:
18
7
23 (crit)

Rothé takes 7 damage down to 6 then a crit for 29 (6+7 for d8s + 6+1+4+4 for d6s) absolutely obliterating him. One Rothé remaining downstairs. Rothés turn.

Three Rothés charge the two Xvarts in the middle floor:
14
21

First two hit for:
1+4+1+4 = 10
6+6+4+4 = 20

damage. One Xvart is completely pasted on the walls, the other just dies. The cornered Rothé downstairs holding the stairs moves on to attack the closest Hobgoblin:
7

The third Rothé from middle floor squeezes 15' down the stairs to fight in the first floor. Can't get to attack position.

The upstairs two of the Rothés charge the Scouts:
24 for 1+4+6+4 = 15
19 for 6+5+4 = 19

One is dead, one left at one HP. The last Rothé, ordered to defend, stands still and readies an attack at any approaching enemy.

Duergar Mind Master has a tough choice: OTOH he could try to get past the Rothé by Reducing himself to attack the PC but he could probably also kill the guard Rothé in one go. I think he's ultimately better served by improving his AC in this situation so he uses Reduce and moves underneath the Rothé holding the stairs trying to get to the Druid he knows is behind this. Rothe takes opportunity attack at AC 19:
20 for 5 damage (down to 34 HP)

Duergar shrugs it off and walks past it downstairs but stays one step from the floor to avoid easy attacks from the Rothé he sees down there alongside his two pasted friends. There's nothing to hide in so he opts to just try and remain safe from as many minions as possible hoping to get to the Druid next turn or first Invisiblying and Hiding and then going.

Scout at 1 HP desperately takes his shortsword and attacks the Rothé that rammed him (he can't really afford to take an opportunity attack so his options are Dodging or Attacking and his only real hope of survival is to kill the Rothé before it kills him):
15 for 6
16 for 6

Rothé is down to 7 HP.

The Druid is up. He uses Spirit Bear Totem to give his allies advantage on Strength checks and +10 temporary HP (the two Rothés upstairs that charged are outside its area of effect though). Then he moves downstairs and casts Cure Wounds on level 4 on himself for:
1, 3, 6, 6 + 4 = 20 HP

Up to 21 HP and 10 temporary HP. Tells the defending Rothés too to just charge anyone they can as the battlefield has devolved into chaos.

Xvart Speaker keeps on the pressure piling on the Rothé at the stairs:
7 for a miss

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow hears fighting and yelling from the roof but also from downstairs thus wanting to maintain his Silent Image. Therefore he Shadow Jaunts to the wall and 30' up, climbing the rest of the way, sees the three Rothés and tries to help the Scout by Darting the one in front of it:
8
12 for 4
21 for 7 killing the Rothé
24 for 7 on the other charging Rothé (down to 12)

Hobgoblins pile up too downstairs:
20 for 13 damage
7
21 for 8 damage

Two hits. The Rothé has 29 HP thanks to the Spirit Bear totem at the top of the stairs meaning it survives at 7 HP.

The previously defending Rothé upstairs charges the Scout:
9, miss

The remaining upstairs Rothé charges the Scout too:
20 for 19 damage, he's squished.

The second floor Rothés try to attack the Mind Master but they have to squeeze in the stairs meaning only one gets to attack, they attack at disadvantage and can't reasonably charge:
11 + 15 for 17, barely miss
Second moves to the lower stairs and readies an attack in case any enemy comes within range.

Bottom floor has the two Rothés fighting for their life. The first one hits the same Hobgoblin as last time:
15 - miss

The one in the stairs hits at disadvantage:
8/5 so a miss

Mind Master goes Invisible, uses Hide at 17 (the Druid's Passive Perception with +3 Prof +4 Wis is exactly 17 so he notices him still, others don't though) and moves to the bottom of the stairs and 20' in so that he can attack the Druid the next round regardless of what the Druid does.

Scouts and Xvarts are dead so it's down to Druid. Druid moves within 15' of where he perceives the Duergar Mind Master and casts Thunderwave from a level 2 slot. Mind Master rolls 1 for Con-save, is knocked 10' back (35' off the Druid as he moves back), takes 6+2+8 = 16 damage, rolls Concentration on his Invisibility and succeeds (17). He's down to 17. Druid again moves back re-establishing distance and preventing the Mind Master from getting within 30' of him that turn.

EDIT: It is at this point that I realize that MPMM version of Mind Master has Reduce as a bonus action while the MTF version, which I had been running, has it as an action. This is a significant buff to the monster as it could've just Reduced and turned Invisible for even more shanking on the same turn but...well, both are valid versions. It would most likely just result in one more dead Rothé. Actually, I'll just have the Mind Master attack the Rothé he was moving under while Reduced; that's the easiest to retroactively apply:
10 for 15 damage
9 (miss)

This means that one of the roof Rothés is dead; otherwise not much of significance changes. So there's one Rothé left on the roof (the Rothé that died missed its charge anyways so it's not that significant - the Scout would've died anyways).

Anyways, Xvart Speaker acts:
7, miss

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow attacks the remaining Rothé:
8
15 for 6
17 for 4
11 for 5

Down to 4 HP. He also moves to the stairs with movement (can't Shadow Jaunt due to the brasero in the top floor: terrain he teleports from needs to be dim light or darkness as well, but I would assume most of the stairs are brightly lit due to the brasero too)

Hobgoblins act:
21 for 16 - first stair defender goes down
18/17 for 10
8/23 (Critical) for 19 - both are down

Rothés are up. There are two in the floor with the Mind Master, who I would argue as a consequence of the Thunderwave knockback + knockdown is no longer hidden though still Invisible:
4/6
20/8

Both miss. The top floor one tries to attack the Iron Shadow in the stairs:
9/9 for 15 total for 8 damage (down to 24)

Duergar Mind Master moves in, uses Mind Mastery to try and make the Druid walk 10' closer so he can shank him:
Druid's Int save roll 3 (total 6)

Druid has to move forward. As Mind Mastery is technically neither a spell nor an attack, it doesn't break Invisibility. Mind Master attacks at advantage (oh yeah, Invisibility not yet recovered):
15

Druid uses Silvery Barbs for reroll giving himself advantage on his next roll:
Duergar rerolls for 6, missing.

Druid casts Conjure Animals again for 31: Sled Dog (basically just reskinned Wolves) surrounding the Mind Master initially.

3 Initiative

One Sled Dog blocks the stairs and 7 surround the Mind Master. Order at all of them: bite him and move away.

Xvart Speaker moves up and attacks the Sled Dog in front of the stairs
5 - miss

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow gets within 20' of the Druid and lets loose with Darts, albeit against cover due to the Sled Dogs surrounding the Mind Master and the Druid (effective AC 14).
11 - miss
22 for 8 damage (down to 22 + 2 temporary) - Concentration at advantage for 8/14 + 6 = 20
21 Silvery Barbsed into 8 for miss and advantage again given to the Druid
8

After that he moves back to the stairs for cover. I don't think he can Shadow Jaunt here either since at least Hooded Lantern gives 30' of bright light thus lighting the entire floor.

Hobgoblins try to get up but they're blocked by the Sled Dog and the Xvart and they'd have to take a turn to doff their shields to use their bows. I think they do just that given they need to get through the stairs and there's no other good way available.

Sled Dogs' turn (again just rolls, they have +4):
6/17 for 7 (9/13 on the save so he goes prone)
1/8 for miss
18/11 for 7 (he's down to 3 HP)
5/2 for miss
10/13 for miss
7/4 for miss
13/2 for miss

They move off first taking disadvantage OA from the Mind Master (1/5, miss) due to him being prone. The one in the stairs moves in too taking 5 damage OA from the Xvart Speaker.

18/2 for 8 damage. Mind Master is dead.

Pack is ready for more. 4 are near the Iron Shadow, rest are waiting atop the bottom stairs.

Druid's turn. He moves to the bottom stairs and casts Thunderwave 2 on the Speaker and 2 of the Hobgoblins: 6 + 2 + 4 = 12 damage.
Saves:
Xvart Speaker: 6
Hobgoblin #1: 2
Hobgoblin #2: 9

They all die. One Hobgoblin and Hobgoblin Iron Shadow is left. Druid moves pack behind the animal pack and orders them to finish off all remaining enemies. Hobgoblin Iron Shadow tries once more to drop the Concentration on the Druid, though due to the Sled Dogs in front of him he has to take four OAs to not attack at disadvantage (again, lightning conditions too good for the Shadow Jaunt ability) though two of them are at cover from the stairs:
13/19 for 9: Str save 16 to stay standing
20/11 (critical) for 9: Str save 4 to fall over
18/2 for 6
10/1 missing

He takes a total of 24/32 damage, uses 20' movement to stand up again, moves back, attacks four times:
13
8
9
7

Four misses. This provokes him to Expeditious Retreat, move to top floor and start climbing down: he's not here to die. The last Hobgoblin feebly attacks the guard of dogs in front of him:
18 for 8 damage. He then pulls back.

Dogs charge down the stairs after the Hobgoblin, dragging him down and ripping him to shreds (18 without advantage for 9 damage, then advantageous 20/7 for lethal). Rest clear out the roof, though they can't climb so the Iron Shadow is able to get away from them.

Druid walks up, casts Magic Stone and readies action to attack the Iron Shadow should he appear. He then climbs down, turns into a...say Warhorse and Dashes away (the Iron Shadow can't really keep up and even if he wanted to, he's got 8 HP so he's one spell from dead and he knows he can't kill the Druid so I think he retreats at this point). I guess he could also get to the sea and turn into Reef Shark or something: it doesn't really matter, this one should be a win.

EDIT: I may have had the stairs wrong; I somehow thought they were all on the same side but reading it again, I gather the first floor stairs are on the opposite side and then the other two staircases on the other one? That shouldn't terribly hugely matter; the summons would just happen on the second floor and the top floor then since those are the most important ones WRT escaping.
Result: Victorious battle


8 Str
14 Dex
18 Con
10 Int
16 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Nature
Perception
Animal Handling
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
4. Resilient: Constitution

Spells:
0. Guidance, Mold Earth, Magic Stone
1. Ice Knife, Goodberry, Fog Cloud, Healing Word
2. Pass without Trace, Spike Growth
3. Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, Tidal Wave
4. Conjure Woodland Beings

15 Str
10 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
18 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Athletics
Religion
Perception
Insight
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
B. War Caster
4. Telekinetic

Spells:
0. Guidance, Toll the Dead, Thaumaturgy, Mage Hand [Telekinetic]
1. Healing Word, Sanctuary, Command, Guiding Bolt, [Domain] Sleep, Faerie Fire
2. Silence, Spiritual Weapon, Blindness/Deafness, Aid, [Domain] Moonbeam, See Invisibility
3. Spirit Guardians, Dispel Magic, [Domain] Aura of Vitality, Tiny Hut
4. Death Ward, [Domain] Aura of Life, Greater Invisibility


Don't have the time to do the Moon Druid and the Cleric right now. I think the Moon Druid should have a relatively easy time of it, but the Cleric will have a rough time without a holy symbol.

[Gignere]

Yeah agree with this, the reflection would be a Battle Master dumping Second Wind, Action Surge, and every Superiority Die every encounter, unrealistic and outcome warping.



Challenge Results!

Race: Tabaxi
Class: Fighter (7)
Subclass: Psi Warrior
ASIs: Dex +2 and Lucky
Skills: Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Perception, Athletics

Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 8

Unarmored AC: 14

First I used Telekinetic Movement to slide the blindfold up and Second Wind (roll 7, new current 15 HP). As neither of these things are really obvious, I didn't trigger initiative at this point.

Initiative was rolled now, as it would be the first escape attempt:

Tabaxi: 23
Bat: 14
Drunk Xvarts: 11

Round 1:

Tabaxi: Attempt to escape 1 was a 16, Lucky rerolled into a 5, complete failure
Bat: moves to harass and tell Xvarts about my shenanigans
Xvarts: make action-free Perception to notice if I made any progress. One gets a 3 the other gets a 17 against all odds, spends his turn putting the blindfold back on then returning to his place

Round 2:

Tabaxi: Attempt 2 is a 22 Success! Now free object interaction to remove blindfold, Action Surge to Dash and Feline Agility to double speed. I rounded up to 40 ft. to be conservative. Bonus action Psi Powered Leap and fly remaining 80 ft. off the roof (landing on floor).

Scouts and Duergar enter initiative at 5 and 9 respectively.

Xvarts: Follow to roof and fire with slings (17 and 11) one hits for 3 damage.
Mind Master: lacking a ranged attack, they start descending the lighthouse to raise the alarm.
Scout: the MM doesn't have darkvision and the Tabaxi is far enough away from the lighthouse that it wouldn't help and no light was described away from the building, so each makes two attacks with disadvantage. (18, 11, 7, 7) one hit for 10 damage!

Tabaxi uses reaction Protective Field, reducing it by 10 and negating all damage.

Tabaxi: Action Dash Bonus Action Psi Powered Leap, flies another 120ft. into the darkness

I called it a success here, as there is no realistic chance of pursuit, only the scouts have the range to attack, but at disadvantage and against Protective field with 12HP left.

A clunky start, but a quick success!

This could have been harder if the Duergar got an attack of opportunity, but TBH a single attack with the option of reduction isn't going to change the outcome.

You could do this with a Shadow Monk with Telekinetic. Invisible Mage Hand lower the blindfold, Shadow Step out of the restraints to the staircase, run and jump off the lighthouse (slow falling for no damage) and just running away. A dragon monk could have AOE'd the guards whilst still bound and flown away etc.

A soulknife would have been easy to get out of the restraints and strong to fight, but has no clean way of healing themselves up and having an unarmored AC.

I'm curious how a caster would do in this situation, I'm guessing not well overall, but we'll see.

Actually telekinetic movement requires you to see the target based on RAW, so even taking off the blindfold may not be possible.

[Gignere]

Okay, so let's do this:


8 Str
16 Dex
15 Con
16 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion
Nature

ASIs:
B. Alert
4. Lucky

Spells:
0. Chill Touch, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Control Flames
1. Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Sleep
2. Misty Step, Web, Pyrotechnics, Suggestion
3. Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell, Phantom Steed
4. Summon Greater Demon, Polymorph

Preparation:
Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Web, Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Summon Greater Demon

Familiar:
Bat
Vuman Diviner has a pretty terrible set of abilities for this. Spells that don't have components or have components that are potentially accessible (in parentheses):
0: Chill Touch, Mold Earth, Minor Illusion, Control Flames.
1: Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, [Mage Armor; Cured Leather from leather armor worn by i.a. Xvarts, Duergar Mind Master & Scouts], [Sleep; there's probably a pinch of sand somewhere around an old lighthouse]
2: Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, [Web; strand of spider web from probably any corner of the lighthouse]
3: Counterspell

Further, for most spells he needs to get both the bindings (1 action), mouth (1 free item interaction) and eyes (1 free item interaction) free but he has a hard time doing that. Good news is that Find Familiar states you can send the familiar to the demiplane (from anywhere so even if it escaped with the party, as long as it exists, this works) and a second one to insert it anywhere within 30' of him: those don't have any but mental actions assigned to them.

Portent rolls: 8, 2. Would be awesome for a normal situation but for this situation? I'd need those high rolls, thank you very much.

So he'll plop his familiar (a bat, as per his Pyrotechnics spell: only flying blindsighted familiar option) right next to himself about 10' in front of him (I think he knows where the wall is based on the manacles and the chain) and look around getting telepathic information of the environment. I don't think this would provoke an alert from the bat as it's another bat; at least it should be curious enough to converse with the new arrival, especially given there is another bat in the house. Nor should it provoke a reaction from anybody else since the Xvarts are drunk and barely paying attention, there is a second bat in the house and I don't think they'd care about the bats discussing between themselves; they are under directions to alert the Xvarts if something important happens after all. Also since the guard bat is using sonar constantly (keeping his senses constantly alert for the PC), the use of sonar should also do nothing special.

As soon as he realizes the existence of the guard Bat, the familiar will try and convince it to help with a promise of more food down the line while taking item interaction to lower the blindfold a bit so that the PC can see (first lowering the Blindfold to enable the Diviner to use Portents). As he's also aware of the Xvarts, he'll try to be quiet enough to not alert the Xvarts (I think Bat's "Deception" vs. Xvarts' "Passive Perception" at advantage (and disadvantage cancelling out) because they understand bat speech sounds fair enough; I would say DC 15 Persuasion check for the Bat familiar to convince the Bat to help [sounds like Moderate given they are the same species and the guard Bat has no reason to either doubt or believe them], DC 10 to do nothing), but I think they'll be more alert anyways meaning the PC actions will trigger. Basically I think in this case his best case scenario is just getting his hands free, removing the eye

Bat rolls: 13 for Deception, 5 for Persuasion. ****. Lucky is personal and Portents were too low to be of help anyways; Silvery Barbs has V components and the mouth is still blocked. Xvarts do not really pay attention but the Bat is not helping; in fact, it warns the Xvarts that it's suspicious of the new arrival.

Roll Initiative:
NPC Bat: 9
Familiar: 11
Diviner: Use Portent on own Initiative to roll a 2 (thus a total of 10 with his +8) - he has no real chance if he goes before the Bat. Conveniently this lets him go right after.
Xvart: Disadvantage due to Poisoned, rolls of 16 and 2; so 4

Initiative order:
Familiar
Diviner
Bat
Xvart

For now, others aren't active yet. Familiar removes the gag as an item interaction and takes an action to remove the bandages on hands.

Diviner acts, uses bonus action to Misty Step out of the manacles up the stairs, moves upstairs picking up fine sand if there is any to be had as an item interaction, and moves to the wall next to one Scout taking the Dodge-action. This adds Duergar Mindmaster, Scouts & Hobgoblin Iron Shadow to the Initiative as they hear the spell being cast as well as everyone from the first floor. As the Duergar is "watching the PC intently", he probably should get to act on this turn yet.

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow: 21
Hobgoblin: 17
Scout: 12
Xvart Speaker: 7
Duergar Mindmaster: 6

Initiative order:
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow
Hobgoblin
Scout
Familiar
Diviner
Bat
Xvart Speaker
Duergar Mindmaster
Xvart


Bat dashes up too yelling alerts. Mindmaster moves to the PC and attacks at Disadvantage (likely better than Mind Mastery knowing that the PC is a Wizard specifically). Lots of rolls follow so I'm only posting die rolls (Mind Master & Iron Shadow are +5, Xvarts & Scouts are +4, Hobgoblins are +3):
9/4 and 12/9: with Shield cast AC is 18, the attacks fail

Xvarts also move up and attack at disadvantage:
5/2 and 11/1. Both miss.

Up from the top, Hobgoblin Iron Shadow casts Expeditious Retreat, climbs up and attacks 4 times:
18/3
14/6
12/8
20/16

Last one threatens a hit. Lucky to reroll:
10

Okay, still alive somehow. Hobgoblins rush up the stairs to see what the commotion is about. They can't quite get to attack since it's 35' up and their move is only 30'. Instead they dash next to the PC to threaten an opportunity attack. Scouts attack:
15/8
19/6
8/10
18/6

Still no hit.

Familiar dashes up to fly out with the PC. Probably gets killed by OA.

Diviner Misty Steps down to the height of 5' diagonally 30', moves 30' and he's on dirt now. Mold Earth to create himself a 5' hole with a 5' obstacle in the direction of the lighthouse. This should provide total cover from the enemies in the lighthouse save for the Iron Shadow.

All the enemies aside from Duergar Mind Master merely ready an action to fire at the Wizard should he appear. Hobgoblin Iron Shadow uses Shadow Jaunt to reach 5' off the bottom of the lighthouse and rushes at the Wizard's hideout attacking in melee:

Iron Shadow:
1
1
16 forcing Lucky and Shield: 2
14 forcing Lucky: 6

Now, if he had found fine sand he'd have a reasonable shot at Sleeping the Hobgoblin. I'll roll a d100 with a 50% chance (above 50 for sand - it doesn't seem unreasonable on a shore building from boots or on the road or whatever): 81

Okay, so he was able to pick up sand in the lighthouse or on the outside while running. Therefore he casts Sleep from a level 4 slot:
60

Iron Shadow falls asleep. Duergar Mind Master dashes climbing down of the lighthouse. He's 60' off. Rest keep their readied action. Diviner breathes deep, Misty Steps 30' away, volley (at disadvantage due to 90' being outside the tower residents' line of sight):
Use 8 on Portent on the first Xvart.
6/12
19/4

Hobgoblins:
16/11
13/12
8/5

Scouts:
1/20
18/15 (+4 for 19 which exceeds the AC of 18)

And that's dead. It was fairly close: I think it's reasonable to claim that if he got to move out of sight range and Hide, he'd have a shot. But Lucky ran out too early and having to take those 4 attacks from Hobgoblin Iron Shadow without disadvantage was just too much. Worth noting that if he had Mage Armor up, he'd have been fine (AC of 21 at disadvantage is already pretty rough: Lucky would've largely been spared even). Then again, without Sleep he would've just gotten run down by the Iron Shadow so that's also down to DM decision (in this case, with no further info, I just used a percentile die as I would in my own game to determine random plausible factors).

It's also possible to rule that as the PC is outside the monster view range after the Misty Step, they can't attack accurately or that the PC could Hide first and Misty Step then in which case I think he has a reasonable chance of escaping: he just needs one-two more turns to get to reasonable cover. But I think this is the closest to RAW where people tend to be daredevils more or less.

Still, I think this demonstrates the power of Alert (so seeing the attackers doesn't matter; very relevant for a character without Darkvision) + Lucky + high AC + Disadvantage (Pyrotechnics, Dodge, etc.). However, you can't of course rely on it forever. The Iron Shadow was definitely the crux in this run: can't run, can't hide, have to deal with him somehow but just don't have the actions to. No Dodge = death.
Result: Death (ranged weapons can't be used to knock unconscious - surprisingly good run though, got really close)


8 Str
14 Dex
15 Con
18 Int
10 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
B. Lucky
4. Telekinetic (+1 Int)

Spells:
0. Chill Touch, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Conjure Bonfire, Mage Hand (Telekinetic)
1. Gift of Alacrity, Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Sleep
2. Dragon's Breath, Web, Cloud of Daggers, Rope Trick
3. Fireball, Counterspell, Phantom Steed, Tiny Hut
4. Polymorph, Dimension Door

Preparation:
Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Gift of Alacrity, Silvery Barbs, Web, Cloud of Daggers, Fireball, Counterspell, Dimension Door

Familiar:
Owl
CLineage Chronurgist is probably the easiest run. Basically just:
0: Chill Touch, Mold Earth, Minor Illusion, Conjure Bonfire, Mage Hand
1: Gift of Alacrity, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, [Mage Armor; Cured Leather from leather armor worn by i.a. Xvarts, Duergar Mind Master & Scouts]
2: Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, [Web; strand of spider web from probably any corner of the lighthouse], [Cloud of Daggers; a sliver of glass sounds feasible in an old lighthouse given the beacon, whisky bottles, etc. should contain glass]
3: Counterspell, [Fireball; Bat guano is obviously available if there are bats and it contains sulfur natively]
4: Dimension Door

First, plop in and plop out the Owl. In this case, I think he wants to plop it outside the Wall since he knows there's a wall next to him and he at least has a small amount of time to look through the familiars eyes; since the Owl appears in the middle of the tower, I think there's a reasonable shot that the Scouts don't notice it since they're probably looking up or to the middle. Scouts have Passive Perception of 20 for sight and hearing (holy **** that's high), Owls have a Stealth of +3 so let's roll:
Stealth: 15

Owl is heard. So Initiative.
Owl: 16
Scout: 10
Chronurgist: 9

Owl takes a lookaround and telepathically informs the Wizard of the surrounding area (120' darkvision so it should have a reasonable chance. Scouts look for the owl from the sides, notice it, and pincushion it:
First attack: 22. Down goes the Owl.

However, the Wizard does have information of the surroundings now. Crucially he hasn't yet had to move or take any visible actions. Telekinetic lets him summon an invisible Mage Hand to take off his gag and he casts Dimension Door towards the exit and 500' off inland. Takes off his stuff effortlessly and escapes while the captors are left wondering what the **** just happened (I'd rule that 500' is too far for the Iron Shadow to reasonably realize that the PC is there especially since he'll try to act stealthily - rolled Stealth in case for a total of 24 so he should be just fine).
Result: Escape


8 Str
14 Dex
17 Con
16 Int
12 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion

ASIs:
4. Moderately Armored (+1 Dexterity)

Spells:
0. Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Fire Bolt
1. Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Feather Fall, Thunderwave, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, False Life
2. Misty Step, Web, Shatter, Rope Trick
3. Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Fly, Tiny Hut
4. Polymorph, Banishment

Preparation:
Shield, Absorb Elements, False Life, Feather Fall, Thunderwave, Misty Step, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Banishment

Familiar:
Owl
This is pretty rough since he's an item user normally. He doesn't have weapon for Booming Blade nor armor and shield he has invested a race and a feat into. Still, he has Abjuration Ward, a decent set of utility spells, some ranged magic and a functional AOE in Thunderwave. If he had Fireball too I think he'd be golden but alas, he has Hypnotic Pattern instead meaning he has to get up to peoples' faces to kill them. Here's for figuring out how he'd do:
0: Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Fire Bolt
1: Shield, Absorb Elements, Thunderwave, [False Life; alcohol are obviously available based on the condition of the Xvarts: most likely a bottle close to them], [Feather Fall; otherwise a lost cause but Owl familiar does have feathers]
2: Misty Step
3: Counterspell, [Fly; as earlier, Owl familiar]
4: [Banishment; maybe something distasteful to the enemies might be available]

As others, he'll begin by sending his familiar to the pocket plane and then summoning it. As he's not able to teleport out, he'll summon it inside like the Diviner. Bat is not directed to tell of anything but changes with the PC and this one being linked to the PC is impercetible.

Either way, I think the Xvarts will rather quickly notice the Owl since there's nothing to hide in. Still, I think the PC will have a round's worth of time to look around with the familiar's eyes as the bat is in a situation it wasn't instructed on and the xvarts are still drunk and not paying that much attention. Probably just an initiative roll as the Owl is summoned:
Owl: 12
Xvart: 10
Abjurer: 12

Owl gives the abjurer quick telepathic information dump and helps the abjurer to first open his mouth and unbind his hands (free action + action). The Wizard needs Verbals. Unfortunately for him that leaves his eyes still bound which means he can't Misty Step. He needs to buy another turn, to which end he readies level 3 Thunderwave on the two Xvarts should they come in range (they're barely out of range initially, being 20' away with Thunderwave having a 15' range).

Xvarts yell that there's a fishy bird bhere doing all sorts of stuff and seeing that the Wizard's gag is removed they move up to him to clobber him to unconsciousness as directed. This triggers level 3 Thunderwave:
1, 8, 7, 2 for 18 damage meanings the Xvart die with a huge boom. Now everyone is immediately alerted by the huge boom:
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow: 16
Xvart Speaker: 11
Scouts: 10
Hobgoblin: 8
Duergar Mind Master: 4

Iron Shadow trusts his minions as stated earlier. Owl frees the Abjurer's eyes and Abjurer Misty Steps out to the far side of the room picking up a feather from the owl as a free action (Owl doesn't necessarily quite like it) and near the booze bottles. He then takes the Dodge action given no reasonable targets.

Xvart Speaker climbs up and tries to sling the Wizard:
9/16 meaning 13 so Shield is cast and Arcane Ward activates for 13 points of defense.

Two Hobgoblins get up and have longswords and shields ready but can't reach him to attack. Instead they dash on either side of the PC for opportunity attacks. Scouts ready attacks at either side of the stairs and the Mind Master turns invisible and moves down the stairs.

Abjurer moves 5' back so that both Hobgoblins are within 15' of it in the front and casts Thunderwave on 3 on the Hobgoblins: 2, 3, 6, 6 for 17. Hobgoblins thus get a save; one rolls 10, other rolls 15. One alive at 3 HP, one dead.

Xvart speaker attacks again moving into melee to give Hobgoblin Martial Advantage: 8, miss.

Hobgoblin calls his mate from the lower level for help and attacks with Longsword: 18, hit with martial advantage for:
2, 5, 4 +1 = 12

Arcane Ward down to 1 HP.

Duergar Mind Master moves up to the Wizard, attacks (first at advantage), and calls the Scouts for help:
19
25 (critical hit)

The Wizard is thoroughly knocked down. Needed Lucky here to have much of a chance, or one more turn to cast Fly or False Life; Fireball might've also saved him as it has a big enough AOE and damage to kill most enemies but alas, this one has CC and utility picks for 3rd level and Hypnotic Pattern does not have a reasonably accessible component.
Result: Prisoner permanently (knocked unconscious)


8 Str
14 Dex
16 Con
10 Int
18 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Nature
Perception
Insight
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
B. Resilient: Constitution
4. Fey-Touched: Silvery Barbs

Spells:
0. Guidance, Mold Earth, Magic Stone
1. Ice Knife, Goodberry, Cure Wounds, Thunderwave, Healing Word, Silvery Barbs
2. Pass without Trace, Spike Growth, Misty Step
3. Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, Tidal Wave
4. Conjure Woodland Beings
Time for something different! Let's Druid it up!

0. Guidance, Mold Earth, [Magic Stone; stones are probably available somewhere]
1. Thunderwave, Goodberry, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Silvery Barbs,
2. Misty Step
3. Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, [Tidal Wave; a drop of water is probably available on a seaside hill]

Here the big issue is getting rid of the restraints. Using Wild Companion would require V and S components and there's no Telekinetic either. That means the only real option is using Wild Shape. I think turning into something extremely small and trying to hide with that is the highest probability strategy: however, that is very DM-dependent so I'll try and fight it out with combat forms.

Wild Shape says "[i]You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it." - obviously I'll choose that my "equipment" falls to the ground to get rid of the restraints. I think this means Manacles should also fall off when I use the ability regardless of the size of my new form unless I choose to "wear them" (I think this is obvious when thinking about turning into e.g. a Snake or whatever - there's no way for limb-based items to be worn by such a creature).

I'll start off by turning into a Giant Poisonous Snake. Initiative is rolled as the Xvarts certainly notice "something" is up:
Xvart: 18 (in spite of disadvantage, holy hell!)
Druid: 15

Xvart switch to slings in the face of a large (large as an adjective, size is medium) poisonous snake.
Attacks:
11
5

Both miss. Xvarts yell the alert.
Duergar Mind Master: 23
Scout: 21
Xvart Speaker: 11
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow: 5
Hobgoblin: 4


Druid takes bonus action to shift back to humanoid form, moves to position to see up and down the stairs, and casts Conjure Animals for 8x CR 1/4 creature. To keep it fair, rolling randomly out of the CR 1/4 creatures (36 in my database) on a d36 (thanks Roll20) from:
Giant Bat
Axe Beak
Diatryma
Draft Horse
Giant Lizard
Giant Riding Lizard
Hadrosaurus
Dimetrodon
Giant Frog
Guthash
Cow
Ox
Rothé
Stench Kow
Elk
Golden Stag
Riding Horse
Yak
Zebra
Deep Rothé
Giant Badger
Pteranodon
Small Drake
Giant Poisonous Snake
Boar
Giant Centipede
Hellwasp Grub
Velociraptor
Panther
Giant Wolf Spider
Sled Dog
Wolf
Fastieth
Giant Owl
Maxeene
Awakened Elk

13 (Rothé)

Spawn 3 Rothés (19 HP thanks to Mighty Summons) over 20' from the Xvarts (Xvarts are on the far side of the room), 2 downstairs with one blocking the stairs and 3 upstairs with one blocking the stairs. Orders given: charge the armed humanoids to the rest, the two at the stairs are told to defend the stairs. Rothé Initiative:
4

Initiative order:
Duergar Mind Master
Scout
Xvart
Druid
Xvart Speaker
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow
Hobgoblin
Rothé

Xvart Speaker quickly relays the alert to the Hobgoblins though they don't exactly require help figuring things out when two bovines appear in front of them. He then proceeds to club the Rothé closer to Hobgoblins moving next to it:
10 hits for 6 (4+2) damage. Rothé down to 13.

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow still trusts his allies but casts the Silent Image. Hobgoblins move to attack with their Longswords trying to cut their way to the upper floor:
18
7
23 (crit)

Rothé takes 7 damage down to 6 then a crit for 29 (6+7 for d8s + 6+1+4+4 for d6s) absolutely obliterating him. One Rothé remaining downstairs. Rothés turn.

Three Rothés charge the two Xvarts in the middle floor:
14
21

First two hit for:
1+4+1+4 = 10
6+6+4+4 = 20

damage. One Xvart is completely pasted on the walls, the other just dies. The cornered Rothé downstairs holding the stairs moves on to attack the closest Hobgoblin:
7

The third Rothé from middle floor squeezes 15' down the stairs to fight in the first floor. Can't get to attack position.

The upstairs two of the Rothés charge the Scouts:
24 for 1+4+6+4 = 15
19 for 6+5+4 = 19

One is dead, one left at one HP. The last Rothé, ordered to defend, stands still and readies an attack at any approaching enemy.

Duergar Mind Master has a tough choice: OTOH he could try to get past the Rothé by Reducing himself to attack the PC but he could probably also kill the guard Rothé in one go. I think he's ultimately better served by improving his AC in this situation so he uses Reduce and moves underneath the Rothé holding the stairs trying to get to the Druid he knows is behind this. Rothe takes opportunity attack at AC 19:
20 for 5 damage (down to 34 HP)

Duergar shrugs it off and walks past it downstairs but stays one step from the floor to avoid easy attacks from the Rothé he sees down there alongside his two pasted friends. There's nothing to hide in so he opts to just try and remain safe from as many minions as possible hoping to get to the Druid next turn or first Invisiblying and Hiding and then going.

Scout at 1 HP desperately takes his shortsword and attacks the Rothé that rammed him (he can't really afford to take an opportunity attack so his options are Dodging or Attacking and his only real hope of survival is to kill the Rothé before it kills him):
15 for 6
16 for 6

Rothé is down to 7 HP.

The Druid is up. He uses Spirit Bear Totem to give his allies advantage on Strength checks and +10 temporary HP (the two Rothés upstairs that charged are outside its area of effect though). Then he moves downstairs and casts Cure Wounds on level 4 on himself for:
1, 3, 6, 6 + 4 = 20 HP

Up to 21 HP and 10 temporary HP. Tells the defending Rothés too to just charge anyone they can as the battlefield has devolved into chaos.

Xvart Speaker keeps on the pressure piling on the Rothé at the stairs:
7 for a miss

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow hears fighting and yelling from the roof but also from downstairs thus wanting to maintain his Silent Image. Therefore he Shadow Jaunts to the wall and 30' up, climbing the rest of the way, sees the three Rothés and tries to help the Scout by Darting the one in front of it:
8
12 for 4
21 for 7 killing the Rothé
24 for 7 on the other charging Rothé (down to 12)

Hobgoblins pile up too downstairs:
20 for 13 damage
7
21 for 8 damage

Two hits. The Rothé has 29 HP thanks to the Spirit Bear totem at the top of the stairs meaning it survives at 7 HP.

The previously defending Rothé upstairs charges the Scout:
9, miss

The remaining upstairs Rothé charges the Scout too:
20 for 19 damage, he's squished.

The second floor Rothés try to attack the Mind Master but they have to squeeze in the stairs meaning only one gets to attack, they attack at disadvantage and can't reasonably charge:
11 + 15 for 17, barely miss
Second moves to the lower stairs and readies an attack in case any enemy comes within range.

Bottom floor has the two Rothés fighting for their life. The first one hits the same Hobgoblin as last time:
15 - miss

The one in the stairs hits at disadvantage:
8/5 so a miss

Mind Master goes Invisible, uses Hide at 17 (the Druid's Passive Perception with +3 Prof +4 Wis is exactly 17 so he notices him still, others don't though) and moves to the bottom of the stairs and 20' in so that he can attack the Druid the next round regardless of what the Druid does.

Scouts and Xvarts are dead so it's down to Druid. Druid moves within 15' of where he perceives the Duergar Mind Master and casts Thunderwave from a level 2 slot. Mind Master rolls 1 for Con-save, is knocked 10' back (35' off the Druid as he moves back), takes 6+2+8 = 16 damage, rolls Concentration on his Invisibility and succeeds (17). He's down to 17. Druid again moves back re-establishing distance and preventing the Mind Master from getting within 30' of him that turn.

EDIT: It is at this point that I realize that MPMM version of Mind Master has Reduce as a bonus action while the MTF version, which I had been running, has it as an action. This is a significant buff to the monster as it could've just Reduced and turned Invisible for even more shanking on the same turn but...well, both are valid versions. It would most likely just result in one more dead Rothé. Actually, I'll just have the Mind Master attack the Rothé he was moving under while Reduced; that's the easiest to retroactively apply:
10 for 15 damage
9 (miss)

This means that one of the roof Rothés is dead; otherwise not much of significance changes. So there's one Rothé left on the roof (the Rothé that died missed its charge anyways so it's not that significant - the Scout would've died anyways).

Anyways, Xvart Speaker acts:
7, miss

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow attacks the remaining Rothé:
8
15 for 6
17 for 4
11 for 5

Down to 4 HP. He also moves to the stairs with movement (can't Shadow Jaunt due to the brasero in the top floor: terrain he teleports from needs to be dim light or darkness as well, but I would assume most of the stairs are brightly lit due to the brasero too)

Hobgoblins act:
21 for 16 - first stair defender goes down
18/17 for 10
8/23 (Critical) for 19 - both are down

Rothés are up. There are two in the floor with the Mind Master, who I would argue as a consequence of the Thunderwave knockback + knockdown is no longer hidden though still Invisible:
4/6
20/8

Both miss. The top floor one tries to attack the Iron Shadow in the stairs:
9/9 for 15 total for 8 damage (down to 24)

Duergar Mind Master moves in, uses Mind Mastery to try and make the Druid walk 10' closer so he can shank him:
Druid's Int save roll 3 (total 6)

Druid has to move forward. As Mind Mastery is technically neither a spell nor an attack, it doesn't break Invisibility. Mind Master attacks at advantage (oh yeah, Invisibility not yet recovered):
15

Druid uses Silvery Barbs for reroll giving himself advantage on his next roll:
Duergar rerolls for 6, missing.

Druid casts Conjure Animals again for 31: Sled Dog (basically just reskinned Wolves) surrounding the Mind Master initially.

3 Initiative

One Sled Dog blocks the stairs and 7 surround the Mind Master. Order at all of them: bite him and move away.

Xvart Speaker moves up and attacks the Sled Dog in front of the stairs
5 - miss

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow gets within 20' of the Druid and lets loose with Darts, albeit against cover due to the Sled Dogs surrounding the Mind Master and the Druid (effective AC 14).
11 - miss
22 for 8 damage (down to 22 + 2 temporary) - Concentration at advantage for 8/14 + 6 = 20
21 Silvery Barbsed into 8 for miss and advantage again given to the Druid
8

After that he moves back to the stairs for cover. I don't think he can Shadow Jaunt here either since at least Hooded Lantern gives 30' of bright light thus lighting the entire floor.

Hobgoblins try to get up but they're blocked by the Sled Dog and the Xvart and they'd have to take a turn to doff their shields to use their bows. I think they do just that given they need to get through the stairs and there's no other good way available.

Sled Dogs' turn (again just rolls, they have +4):
6/17 for 7 (9/13 on the save so he goes prone)
1/8 for miss
18/11 for 7 (he's down to 3 HP)
5/2 for miss
10/13 for miss
7/4 for miss
13/2 for miss

They move off first taking disadvantage OA from the Mind Master (1/5, miss) due to him being prone. The one in the stairs moves in too taking 5 damage OA from the Xvart Speaker.

18/2 for 8 damage. Mind Master is dead.

Pack is ready for more. 4 are near the Iron Shadow, rest are waiting atop the bottom stairs.

Druid's turn. He moves to the bottom stairs and casts Thunderwave 2 on the Speaker and 2 of the Hobgoblins: 6 + 2 + 4 = 12 damage.
Saves:
Xvart Speaker: 6
Hobgoblin #1: 2
Hobgoblin #2: 9

They all die. One Hobgoblin and Hobgoblin Iron Shadow is left. Druid moves pack behind the animal pack and orders them to finish off all remaining enemies. Hobgoblin Iron Shadow tries once more to drop the Concentration on the Druid, though due to the Sled Dogs in front of him he has to take four OAs to not attack at disadvantage (again, lightning conditions too good for the Shadow Jaunt ability) though two of them are at cover from the stairs:
13/19 for 9: Str save 16 to stay standing
20/11 (critical) for 9: Str save 4 to fall over
18/2 for 6
10/1 missing

He takes a total of 24/32 damage, uses 20' movement to stand up again, moves back, attacks four times:
13
8
9
7

Four misses. This provokes him to Expeditious Retreat, move to top floor and start climbing down: he's not here to die. The last Hobgoblin feebly attacks the guard of dogs in front of him:
18 for 8 damage. He then pulls back.

Dogs charge down the stairs after the Hobgoblin, dragging him down and ripping him to shreds (18 without advantage for 9 damage, then advantageous 20/7 for lethal). Rest clear out the roof, though they can't climb so the Iron Shadow is able to get away from them.

Druid walks up, casts Magic Stone and readies action to attack the Iron Shadow should he appear. He then climbs down, turns into a...say Warhorse and Dashes away (the Iron Shadow can't really keep up and even if he wanted to, he's got 8 HP so he's one spell from dead and he knows he can't kill the Druid so I think he retreats at this point). I guess he could also get to the sea and turn into Reef Shark or something: it doesn't really matter, this one should be a win.

EDIT: I may have had the stairs wrong; I somehow thought they were all on the same side but reading it again, I gather the first floor stairs are on the opposite side and then the other two staircases on the other one? That shouldn't terribly hugely matter; the summons would just happen on the second floor and the top floor then since those are the most important ones WRT escaping.
Result: Victorious battle


8 Str
14 Dex
18 Con
10 Int
16 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Nature
Perception
Animal Handling
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
4. Resilient: Constitution

Spells:
0. Guidance, Mold Earth, Magic Stone
1. Ice Knife, Goodberry, Fog Cloud, Healing Word
2. Pass without Trace, Spike Growth
3. Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, Tidal Wave
4. Conjure Woodland Beings

15 Str
10 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
18 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Athletics
Religion
Perception
Insight
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
B. War Caster
4. Telekinetic

Spells:
0. Guidance, Toll the Dead, Thaumaturgy, Mage Hand [Telekinetic]
1. Healing Word, Sanctuary, Command, Guiding Bolt, [Domain] Sleep, Faerie Fire
2. Silence, Spiritual Weapon, Blindness/Deafness, Aid, [Domain] Moonbeam, See Invisibility
3. Spirit Guardians, Dispel Magic, [Domain] Aura of Vitality, Tiny Hut
4. Death Ward, [Domain] Aura of Life, Greater Invisibility


Don't have the time to do the Moon Druid and the Cleric right now. I think the Moon Druid should have a relatively easy time of it, but the Cleric will have a rough time without a holy symbol.

This was awesome but it just seems like any wizard with a familiar and DDoor pretty much will get away. It’s not guaranteed but should have a decent shot as long as not all the dice rolls goes against you. Nothing the chronurgist did is inherent to chronurgy.

The shepherd Druid is a total beast, imagine if you can pick the summons.

[animorte]

Actually telekinetic movement requires you to see the target based on RAW, so even taking off the blindfold may not be possible.
Technically that's the only thing you can see! :smalltongue:


This was awesome but it just seems like any wizard with a familiar and DDoor pretty much will get away.
Exactly what I thought. It shows the power of the spell itself.


The shepherd Druid is a total beast, imagine if you can pick the summons.
I think there are very few builds that could outright crush the opposition, this being one of them.

[Eldariel]

This was awesome but it just seems like any wizard with a familiar and DDoor pretty much will get away. It’s not guaranteed but should have a decent shot as long as not all the dice rolls goes against you. Nothing the chronurgist did is inherent to chronurgy.

The shepherd Druid is a total beast, imagine if you can pick the summons.

Chronurgy sadly has Gift of Alacrity dispelled by the rules, and there's just no reactions to use Chronal Shift outside maybe the first turns where the need didn't occur. The Initiative bonus was the only thing he really brought to the table. And yeah, DD obviously wins but the odds of having DD prepared on level 7 isn't guarantee; there's like 3-4 good level 4 spells and you only get two of them. But ya, even the Misty Step builds had a reasonable shot; if not for the dispelling, the Diviner would've escaped almost certainly (though the sand question is not trivial and if not for the Sleep, he'd have no chance; the Iron Shadow is too good at chasing). Kinda sad that the only build that had Fireball prepared was the one with Dimension Door so I didn't get to try if Bat Guano Fireballs could perhaps suffice. Probably not; the Iron Shadow and Mind Master will survive and especially the Iron Shadow is highly likely to kill you but it's still an interesting option.

[Gignere]

Technically that's the only thing you can see! :smalltongue:


Exactly what I thought. It shows the power of the spell itself.


I think there are very few builds that could outright crush the opposition, this being one of them.

The shepherd Druid is knocked unconscious and bounded and gag and captured. All he is thinking is ha I got you all right where I want you suckers and you bought me back to your base.

[Corran]

@Eldariel: Reading the attempts and writing comments as I go over them one by one so that I dont forget.
I am using spoilers so that I dont mess up anything for anyone else wanting to try it out.


Well fought. Too bad you didn't have the action economy (because of bonus action casting) to set up a pyrotechincs on the area from where you were getting shot from before abandoning it. It wouldn't prevent the iron shadow from giving chase (in the same way as you'd escape most likely), but it might save you these final shots if I am not too mistaken about the map.

In the absense of dimension door, misty step is the best way to go, in which case actions get logically narrowed down to what you did I think. Great call on the mold earth, I would have gone for the water, but mold earth can have additional advantages in case the enemies are knowledgable enough (eg to know to shoot at the sleeping iron shadow so that it can continue giving chase, at which point I think it's game over as you cannot escape it via running). In the sense that you can (gently) pull the sleeping iron shadow behind mold earth's cover before attempting to complete your escape.

I agree that the value of shield and lucky shows up here, as well as this of the dodge action (as it was the only way to inflict disadvantage on these first turns while you had to use your bonus action to misty step and to wait for it to "recharge"), as well as that of alert (even if it is just in terms of initiative, cause I dont think you didn't have the chance to make much use out of it otherwise). Personally, I'll try to remember that sleep does still hold onto some situational value after the first couple levels, cause it's a spell I always neglect because of its drastically reducing usefulness. I guess the fact that you were light on components helps highlighting sleep, then again, would something like a hypnotic pattern be more useful against the iron shadow (since you really need to shut it down)? I dont think so.

Good call on the familiar trying to negotiate. I'd probably raise the DC though, or more likely keep the disadvantage on despite the fortunate coincident of the guard being a bat (I would have that just enable the option).

===================================

I think too much comes down to if the wizard has dimension door (or, let's be real, the slot to use it at that point). Which, to be fair, I consider it unlikely. Perhaps that's another good lesson to pick up here. Try to be a bit more cautious before eventually (lvl 8-10) adding dimension door to your spell list. Or, conversly, go for dimension door early and try to conserve those 4th level (or higher) slot, if you undertake high risk missions regularly. Cause I cannot think of anything better than using dimension door to find yourself into the water. Lucky would still be useful cause I'd expect an int check to influence how well placed this dimension door will be. Feather fall (feather from owl) to soften your splash in case of miscalculating (in the last minute, so probably another check and chance for lucky to be useful) so that you'll increase your chances of going unoticed in case of good weather. And if you dont, either invisibility or water breathing to try and outlast the iron shadow without relying too uncomfortably on the dice (it would be reasonable to have water breathing cast, since sea is nearby and this is a daring mission; problem for me is that I dont usually go for this spell, but hopefuly someone else at the group would have it; if not, it all comes down to how sucessfully you dimension door into the water without giving it away).

Yeah, basically. I guess the real question is how likely it is for one to get DD right at level 7. It could be considered smart to delay it just a bit, because there are stronger options and just one slot to play with (I like picking it up at level 8, both because of the extra slot but also because arcane recovery will cover for it then). Equally troublesome, how likely would it be to have the slot available. And yeah, I am not disputing the scenario or the correctness of the attempt, I am just trying to adapt this to a similar situation that I would be more likely to encounter in practice, and trying to discern something useful from this. It's hard not to assume that I would have already used the 4th level slot for something, even dimension door. Perhaps a lucky crit dropped me before I had the chance to escape, and perhaps I had no other 4th level spell that was all that well suited for the heist. Hmm, I'll choose to learn the following. If at level 7 with a wizard, find a way to postpone the very dangerous stuff until level 8, which is probably still a better point to pick up dimension door all things considered. But if you cannot, and you've got some reckless adventuring in front of you, then maybe grab DD early. Maybe...


I think you should risk more with your first action. Instead of using thunderwave against the Xvart guards, I'd use false life and I'd chance on shield keeping me safe against their attacks (I think they are supposed to have disadvantage cause they are drunk, but even if they dont, I'd still chance it; at least that's my gut instinct). With the option to thunderwave later on when more enemies would be caught in the blast (though most likely I'd prefer either fly or dodge/dash & misty step -with the intention of casting fly from a safer position next turn). Long term I think that each round of thunderwaving costs you, at least if you are commited to escaping (which sounds like better than fighting it out).

Fly does indeed seems like the big move here, as I dont think you have any other way of really dealing with the iron shadow. It would be funny to attempt an escape attempt much like the diviner and instead of sleep (or fly) rely on rope trick to attempt to trap the iron shadow, but that reuires components, illusions, good timing, and in all honesty, a DM ruling favourably on many odd interactions.

I'll read the rest when I've got more time. Good read!

[Dr.Samurai]

Spell selection and slots left are exactly the criteria these encounters will hinge on.

One way to address it would be to take the top spells of a spell level, and then choose your two spells at random from that short list.

Then, assign a number of spell slots remaining to a few different scenarios for that day (no encounters yet, a couple of medium encounters, a deadly encounter, etc.). Randomly choose which scenario you're in, and that is the number of slots you have left remaining for this encounter.

For my part, I wonder if a gloomstalker can do something (escape, put out the light), and I'm sure an aberrant mind sorcerer can get down to some shenanigans.

[Eldariel]

@Eldariel: Reading the attempts and writing comments as I go over them one by one so that I dont forget.
I am using spoilers so that I dont mess up anything for anyone else wanting to try it out.


Well fought. Too bad you didn't have the action economy (because of bonus action casting) to set up a pyrotechincs on the area from where you were getting shot from before abandoning it. It wouldn't prevent the iron shadow from giving chase (in the same way as you'd escape most likely), but it might save you these final shots if I am not too mistaken about the map.

In the absense of dimension door, misty step is the best way to go, in which case actions get logically narrowed down to what you did I think. Great call on the mold earth, I would have gone for the water, but mold earth can have additional advantages in case the enemies are knowledgable enough (eg to know to shoot at the sleeping iron shadow so that it can continue giving chase, at which point I think it's game over as you cannot escape it via running). In the sense that you can (gently) pull the sleeping iron shadow behind mold earth's cover before attempting to complete your escape.

I agree that the value of shield and lucky shows up here, as well as this of the dodge action (as it was the only way to inflict disadvantage on these first turns while you had to use your bonus action to misty step and to wait for it to "recharge"), as well as that of alert (even if it is just in terms of initiative, cause I dont think you didn't have the chance to make much use out of it otherwise). Personally, I'll try to remember that sleep does still hold onto some situational value after the first couple levels, cause it's a spell I always neglect because of its drastically reducing usefulness. I guess the fact that you were light on components helps highlighting sleep, then again, would something like a hypnotic pattern be more useful against the iron shadow (since you really need to shut it down)? I dont think so.

Good call on the familiar trying to negotiate. I'd probably raise the DC though, or more likely keep the disadvantage on despite the fortunate coincident of the guard being a bat (I would have that just enable the option).

===================================

I think too much comes down to if the wizard has dimension door (or, let's be real, the slot to use it at that point). Which, to be fair, I consider it unlikely. Perhaps that's another good lesson to pick up here. Try to be a bit more cautious before eventually (lvl 8-10) adding dimension door to your spell list. Or, conversly, go for dimension door early and try to conserve those 4th level (or higher) slot, if you undertake high risk missions regularly. Cause I cannot think of anything better than using dimension door to find yourself into the water. Lucky would still be useful cause I'd expect an int check to influence how well placed this dimension door will be. Feather fall (feather from owl) to soften your splash in case of miscalculating (in the last minute, so probably another check and chance for lucky to be useful) so that you'll increase your chances of going unoticed in case of good weather. And if you dont, either invisibility or water breathing to try and outlast the iron shadow without relying too uncomfortably on the dice (it would be reasonable to have water breathing cast, since sea is nearby and this is a daring mission; problem for me is that I dont usually go for this spell, but hopefuly someone else at the group would have it; if not, it all comes down to how sucessfully you dimension door into the water without giving it away).

Yeah, basically. I guess the real question is how likely it is for one to get DD right at level 7. It could be considered smart to delay it just a bit, because there are stronger options and just one slot to play with (I like picking it up at level 8, both because of the extra slot but also because arcane recovery will cover for it then). Equally troublesome, how likely would it be to have the slot available. And yeah, I am not disputing the scenario or the correctness of the attempt, I am just trying to adapt this to a similar situation that I would be more likely to encounter in practice, and trying to discern something useful from this. It's hard not to assume that I would have already used the 4th level slot for something, even dimension door. Perhaps a lucky crit dropped me before I had the chance to escape, and perhaps I had no other 4th level spell that was all that well suited for the heist. Hmm, I'll choose to learn the following. If at level 7 with a wizard, find a way to postpone the very dangerous stuff until level 8, which is probably still a better point to pick up dimension door all things considered. But if you cannot, and you've got some reckless adventuring in front of you, then maybe grab DD early. Maybe...


I think you should risk more with your first action. Instead of using thunderwave against the Xvart guards, I'd use false life and I'd chance on shield keeping me safe against their attacks (I think they are supposed to have disadvantage cause they are drunk, but even if they dont, I'd still chance it; at least that's my gut instinct). With the option to thunderwave later on when more enemies would be caught in the blast (though most likely I'd prefer either fly or dodge/dash & misty step -with the intention of casting fly from a safer position next turn). Long term I think that each round of thunderwaving costs you, at least if you are commited to escaping (which sounds like better than fighting it out).

Fly does indeed seems like the big move here, as I dont think you have any other way of really dealing with the iron shadow. It would be funny to attempt an escape attempt much like the diviner and instead of sleep (or fly) rely on rope trick to attempt to trap the iron shadow, but that reuires components, illusions, good timing, and in all honesty, a DM ruling favourably on many odd interactions.

I'll read the rest when I've got more time. Good read!

Regarding spell selection, level 4 is a big choice. You basically have:
- Summon Greater Demon: The best summon spell Wizard gets and it's truly a doozy. Huge encounter-swinging power pretty much regardless of encounter, far to the excess of any summon spell and this remains relevant all the way through to level 20 since Demons are the best summon-accessible creature type ability-wise.

- Polymorph: Or "Giant Ape form" with its CC variant (it's not a coincidence that this was available on the Diviner: single-target CC and Diviner are quite the iconic duo though in this case he had apparently prepared Summon Greater Demon). 157 temporary HP is a lot and it has great attacks. If there happened to be a caterpillar cocoon around in the tower, which is not impossible, King Kong solution would likely work really well though you'd need to get upstairs first.

- Dimension Door: What it lacks in combat power it makes up for in tactical utility. In combat, it's a superb tool against kiting enemies; take another heavy hitter with you and get right up their grill. Or out of their grill if you're dealing with something you'd rather kite. It's no Misty Step; the fact that it has a vast super-tactical range means it basically surpasses all movement options (even Hasted Flying Double Dashing Wizard only hits 360' of movement) and more importantly, it is the first ability in the game that allows bypassing terrain. That means you can just literally teleport through the hostile stronghold for a heist (or more likely, teleport out once you've gotten in) or teleport through the volcano crust straight to the hall as long as you have somehow ascertained the distance; this goes together really well with scouting information and while this is merely "good" in combat, it's excellent far as expanding tactics goes.

- Watery Sphere: The easiest to delay, it's a great spell but Str-saves are pretty good fairly often on tougher enemies, and you already have two amazing AOE CC abilities in Web and Hypnotic Pattern. In short, while it's great to be able to AOE target Strength and with an ability that moves meaning it's quite slot efficient compared to non-mobile area CC (you get to reapply the debuff), Restrained is not the best CC (by RAW it does nothing against casters, which is a bit absurd: you'd think it would at least make somatic components more difficult), and the size limitation is annoying (though let's be honest, you're not going to find a huge creature you'd want to use a Strength save spell against anyways).


I think it's in part whether I've got bonus action mobility; I'll always prepare at least one teleportation effect. With Dimension Door, especially if you have Arcane Recovery for the 4th level slot, Misty Step is more skippable though it's still really good and gets you out of lots of trouble. Mostly Dimension Door is the kind of tool I'd pick if my party was intent on doing something where it'd be really useful to be able to just teleport through lots of rooms or a large area (which, to be honest, is fairly often; basically whenever you've got dungeon terrain it can be incredibly valuable though 4th level slot is a steep cost).

Given the frame story of this encounter, I think DD would be a very, very reasonable pick for your 4th level spell since it sounds like exactly the kind of tool I'd want if I'm trying to pull of a heist in BBEG's base; a really quick way either in or out makes life a lot easier. And perhaps I got a short rest so I was able to recover the slot before something went wrong and I got captured (perhaps the McGuffin was trapped and the trap, after activation, teleported me to BBEG's prison tower while under heavy restraint). Same with Sleep: you want to get past enemies no hassle and just put them down quickly and efficiently and when you have a lot of mooks, Sleep retains usefulness very deep especially if you have a general idea of their HP and can thus plan it probabilistically (or your teammates are good at dealing damage: I've used it to put down Bulezau before as the highest amount of "damage" my 1st level slot could do).

But yeah, the bonus action/action spell rule really restricted my options hard here. If I had the chance to get Mage Armor up, perhaps things could've been different. Sadly Iron Shadow has unarmored defense; no cured leather. Though maybe he could've had it in his own spell component pouch.

As for dealing with the Iron Shadow, one option was also trying to get the lantern from the second floor and casting Web leaving the Lantern next to it. The Iron Shadow can't teleport as long as they are in bright light (I guess they could attack the lantern?) so they'd be stuck in Web that way. But getting the Lantern is really hard.

Re@Abjurer: Yeah, it's true that I forgot to apply Xvart penalty to attacks. For whatever reason I put them as having Exhaustion 1 and thus only penalty to ability checks instead. Well, whatever, I don't think they did that much but I could've maybe risked letting them attack - I was worried about them killing my owl more than killing me since I needed to get my blindfold off before I could Misty Step out of the manacles. The owl couldn't remove all of the gag + blindfold + bandages in one round.

Maybe I could've had it remove gag + blindfold (using action for second item interaction) and removed bandages myself followed by Misty Step? That would've left me without an action but I would've been able to False Life on R2 instead of R3 and there might've been some delay in enemy action without Thunderwave; the Xvart Speaker has to translate to the Hobs, which might delay their participation by one round. That would've actually certainly been better, thanks! Though the Duergar Mind Master was the big thing: he hit and crit meaning no amount of dice would've saved me there (his crits average like 30 damage alone). He hits like a truck and has so much HP that it's very hard to kill him - safest to kite him since he has no decent ranged options nor mobility options.


With the Druid I actually played with the idea of just jumping to the water and turning into a Reef Shark; it's surprisingly not terrible. If I had the time to cast Cure Wounds one more time before jumping I would've likely survived the 11d6 fall (average 39 damage) and then I could've just turned into Reef Shark and swam away with zero risk of pursuit.

@The Samurai: Yeah, I'm certain there's some good Sorc builds for this and probably some other decent Clerics as well. Bards are at an interesting point too (perhaps something you could do as an Eloquence Bard with Silver Tongued trying to persuade your way out of this with outlandish promises and Lore Bard obviously has the same Conjure Animals angle available as the Druids though he needs tricks to get out of the shackles...but he can at least get Expertise for Sleight of Hand in addition to Stealth) and it's plausible for there to be some decent Warlocks too. I think most Druids should be fine: Wildfire seems really good here too since you have the flame teleporting. Stars and Spores might have it rough but they're still Druids. There are also some other interesting Wizard-builds that have some potential; even the ones I ran with like Fireball in the mix might've had a very reasonable chance (hell, the builds I ran but played a bit differently or slightly more lucky could've done it; the Diviner was really close to pulling it off).

That's the annoying part: whenever you go from teamplay to solo, the value of CC and damage shifts dramatically, which means it's quite possible to have the "wrong" spells for this on a support caster since obviously your prep was not for a solo escape (which I hope my builds fit reasonably: none of them was tailored with this in mind). In solo, you first need tons of damage and you can't really afford the actions to CC unless you hit all enemies or have something doing passive damage while CCing them or manage to escape, while in teamplay CC is supergood and damage is only so good depending on the opposition and your teammates (though to be fair, here the biggest issue was that almost all Wizard CC spells have components).

I'll have to run the Twilight through it when I get the chance though I'm not holding my breath; he'll need a lot of, ahem, divine providence to pull it off. Spiritual Weapon, Command, Healing Word, Aura of Vitality are the big things I've identified but he runs into a serious case of bonus action clog and his best AOE as well as his best ability are sadly both offline. And unlike the other characters, he has to get out of the manacles the oldfashioned way.

[animorte]

Or, conversly, go for dimension door early and try to conserve those 4th level (or higher) slot, if you undertake high risk missions regularly.

But if you cannot, and you've got some reckless adventuring in front of you, then maybe grab DD early. Maybe...


Dimension Door: What it lacks in combat power it makes up for in tactical utility. In combat, it's a superb tool against kiting enemies; take another heavy hitter with you and get right up their grill. Or out of their grill if you're dealing with something you'd rather kite. It's no Misty Step; the fact that it has a vast super-tactical range means it basically surpasses all movement options (even Hasted Flying Double Dashing Wizard only hits 360' of movement) and more importantly, it is the first ability in the game that allows bypassing terrain. That means you can just literally teleport through the hostile stronghold for a heist (or more likely, teleport out once you've gotten in) or teleport through the volcano crust straight to the hall as long as you have somehow ascertained the distance; this goes together really well with scouting information and while this is merely "good" in combat, it's excellent far as expanding tactics goes.
Going to throw in thoughts here again as I've been trying to keep up with this interesting read.

I find Dimension Door to be one of my most valued spells. If it is available to my character at the time it can be acquired, I will have it. Period. Even if I don't need it every day and it's often just a 4th-level slot doing absolutely nothing, I always love to have it in case all the **** really hits the fan. I'm sure not everybody prioritizes it the same way.

[Gignere]

I'll have to run the Twilight through it when I get the chance though I'm not holding my breath; he'll need a lot of, ahem, divine providence to pull it off. Spiritual Weapon, Command, Healing Word, Aura of Vitality are the big things I've identified but he runs into a serious case of bonus action clog and his best AOE as well as his best ability are sadly both offline. And unlike the other characters, he has to get out of the manacles the oldfashioned way.

This is why at least half the clerics that I have played with has their holy symbol tattooed on them. To show devotion to their god and definitely not metagaming for the eventuality that the DM would take his holy symbol away.

[Dr.Samurai]

How are we treating the stairs? They look pretty steep, almost like a ladder climb. Is it climbing, difficult terrain, or something else? And how many squares of movement?

Also, the xvarts are seated. So are they standing from essentially the prone condition when they first act?

[Unoriginal]

Okay, so let's do this:


8 Str
16 Dex
15 Con
16 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion
Nature

ASIs:
B. Alert
4. Lucky

Spells:
0. Chill Touch, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Control Flames
1. Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Sleep
2. Misty Step, Web, Pyrotechnics, Suggestion
3. Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell, Phantom Steed
4. Summon Greater Demon, Polymorph

Preparation:
Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Web, Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Summon Greater Demon

Familiar:
Bat
Vuman Diviner has a pretty terrible set of abilities for this. Spells that don't have components or have components that are potentially accessible (in parentheses):
0: Chill Touch, Mold Earth, Minor Illusion, Control Flames.
1: Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, [Mage Armor; Cured Leather from leather armor worn by i.a. Xvarts, Duergar Mind Master & Scouts], [Sleep; there's probably a pinch of sand somewhere around an old lighthouse]
2: Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, [Web; strand of spider web from probably any corner of the lighthouse]
3: Counterspell

Further, for most spells he needs to get both the bindings (1 action), mouth (1 free item interaction) and eyes (1 free item interaction) free but he has a hard time doing that. Good news is that Find Familiar states you can send the familiar to the demiplane (from anywhere so even if it escaped with the party, as long as it exists, this works) and a second one to insert it anywhere within 30' of him: those don't have any but mental actions assigned to them.

Portent rolls: 8, 2. Would be awesome for a normal situation but for this situation? I'd need those high rolls, thank you very much.

So he'll plop his familiar (a bat, as per his Pyrotechnics spell: only flying blindsighted familiar option) right next to himself about 10' in front of him (I think he knows where the wall is based on the manacles and the chain) and look around getting telepathic information of the environment. I don't think this would provoke an alert from the bat as it's another bat; at least it should be curious enough to converse with the new arrival, especially given there is another bat in the house. Nor should it provoke a reaction from anybody else since the Xvarts are drunk and barely paying attention, there is a second bat in the house and I don't think they'd care about the bats discussing between themselves; they are under directions to alert the Xvarts if something important happens after all. Also since the guard bat is using sonar constantly (keeping his senses constantly alert for the PC), the use of sonar should also do nothing special.

As soon as he realizes the existence of the guard Bat, the familiar will try and convince it to help with a promise of more food down the line while taking item interaction to lower the blindfold a bit so that the PC can see (first lowering the Blindfold to enable the Diviner to use Portents). As he's also aware of the Xvarts, he'll try to be quiet enough to not alert the Xvarts (I think Bat's "Deception" vs. Xvarts' "Passive Perception" at advantage (and disadvantage cancelling out) because they understand bat speech sounds fair enough; I would say DC 15 Persuasion check for the Bat familiar to convince the Bat to help [sounds like Moderate given they are the same species and the guard Bat has no reason to either doubt or believe them], DC 10 to do nothing), but I think they'll be more alert anyways meaning the PC actions will trigger. Basically I think in this case his best case scenario is just getting his hands free, removing the eye

Bat rolls: 13 for Deception, 5 for Persuasion. ****. Lucky is personal and Portents were too low to be of help anyways; Silvery Barbs has V components and the mouth is still blocked. Xvarts do not really pay attention but the Bat is not helping; in fact, it warns the Xvarts that it's suspicious of the new arrival.

Roll Initiative:
NPC Bat: 9
Familiar: 11
Diviner: Use Portent on own Initiative to roll a 2 (thus a total of 10 with his +8) - he has no real chance if he goes before the Bat. Conveniently this lets him go right after.
Xvart: Disadvantage due to Poisoned, rolls of 16 and 2; so 4

Initiative order:
Familiar
Diviner
Bat
Xvart

For now, others aren't active yet. Familiar removes the gag as an item interaction and takes an action to remove the bandages on hands.

Diviner acts, uses bonus action to Misty Step out of the manacles up the stairs, moves upstairs picking up fine sand if there is any to be had as an item interaction, and moves to the wall next to one Scout taking the Dodge-action. This adds Duergar Mindmaster, Scouts & Hobgoblin Iron Shadow to the Initiative as they hear the spell being cast as well as everyone from the first floor. As the Duergar is "watching the PC intently", he probably should get to act on this turn yet.

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow: 21
Hobgoblin: 17
Scout: 12
Xvart Speaker: 7
Duergar Mindmaster: 6

Initiative order:
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow
Hobgoblin
Scout
Familiar
Diviner
Bat
Xvart Speaker
Duergar Mindmaster
Xvart


Bat dashes up too yelling alerts. Mindmaster moves to the PC and attacks at Disadvantage (likely better than Mind Mastery knowing that the PC is a Wizard specifically). Lots of rolls follow so I'm only posting die rolls (Mind Master & Iron Shadow are +5, Xvarts & Scouts are +4, Hobgoblins are +3):
9/4 and 12/9: with Shield cast AC is 18, the attacks fail

Xvarts also move up and attack at disadvantage:
5/2 and 11/1. Both miss.

Up from the top, Hobgoblin Iron Shadow casts Expeditious Retreat, climbs up and attacks 4 times:
18/3
14/6
12/8
20/16

Last one threatens a hit. Lucky to reroll:
10

Okay, still alive somehow. Hobgoblins rush up the stairs to see what the commotion is about. They can't quite get to attack since it's 35' up and their move is only 30'. Instead they dash next to the PC to threaten an opportunity attack. Scouts attack:
15/8
19/6
8/10
18/6

Still no hit.

Familiar dashes up to fly out with the PC. Probably gets killed by OA.

Diviner Misty Steps down to the height of 5' diagonally 30', moves 30' and he's on dirt now. Mold Earth to create himself a 5' hole with a 5' obstacle in the direction of the lighthouse. This should provide total cover from the enemies in the lighthouse save for the Iron Shadow.

All the enemies aside from Duergar Mind Master merely ready an action to fire at the Wizard should he appear. Hobgoblin Iron Shadow uses Shadow Jaunt to reach 5' off the bottom of the lighthouse and rushes at the Wizard's hideout attacking in melee:

Iron Shadow:
1
1
16 forcing Lucky and Shield: 2
14 forcing Lucky: 6

Now, if he had found fine sand he'd have a reasonable shot at Sleeping the Hobgoblin. I'll roll a d100 with a 50% chance (above 50 for sand - it doesn't seem unreasonable on a shore building from boots or on the road or whatever): 81

Okay, so he was able to pick up sand in the lighthouse or on the outside while running. Therefore he casts Sleep from a level 4 slot:
60

Iron Shadow falls asleep. Duergar Mind Master dashes climbing down of the lighthouse. He's 60' off. Rest keep their readied action. Diviner breathes deep, Misty Steps 30' away, volley (at disadvantage due to 90' being outside the tower residents' line of sight):
Use 8 on Portent on the first Xvart.
6/12
19/4

Hobgoblins:
16/11
13/12
8/5

Scouts:
1/20
18/15 (+4 for 19 which exceeds the AC of 18)

And that's dead. It was fairly close: I think it's reasonable to claim that if he got to move out of sight range and Hide, he'd have a shot. But Lucky ran out too early and having to take those 4 attacks from Hobgoblin Iron Shadow without disadvantage was just too much. Worth noting that if he had Mage Armor up, he'd have been fine (AC of 21 at disadvantage is already pretty rough: Lucky would've largely been spared even). Then again, without Sleep he would've just gotten run down by the Iron Shadow so that's also down to DM decision (in this case, with no further info, I just used a percentile die as I would in my own game to determine random plausible factors).

It's also possible to rule that as the PC is outside the monster view range after the Misty Step, they can't attack accurately or that the PC could Hide first and Misty Step then in which case I think he has a reasonable chance of escaping: he just needs one-two more turns to get to reasonable cover. But I think this is the closest to RAW where people tend to be daredevils more or less.

Still, I think this demonstrates the power of Alert (so seeing the attackers doesn't matter; very relevant for a character without Darkvision) + Lucky + high AC + Disadvantage (Pyrotechnics, Dodge, etc.). However, you can't of course rely on it forever. The Iron Shadow was definitely the crux in this run: can't run, can't hide, have to deal with him somehow but just don't have the actions to. No Dodge = death.
Result: Death (ranged weapons can't be used to knock unconscious - surprisingly good run though, got really close)

My ruling is that the Xvarts (and everyone else involved in that challenge) would definitively notice an animal or any kind of being suddenly materializing in the room they're in or entering the room by mundane means, unless the being can attempt stealth.

The Xvarts are not currently paying attention to the PC at the start as they assume the PC is bound and unconscious, they're still paying attention to the rest of the room.

Furthermore, everyone in the building except the Bats will react to what they perceive as a non-identified being showing up by attacking said being. That would include allies if they're made to be seen as non-identified beings, due to illusions or enchantments or anything else.




8 Str
14 Dex
15 Con
18 Int
10 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
B. Lucky
4. Telekinetic (+1 Int)

Spells:
0. Chill Touch, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Conjure Bonfire, Mage Hand (Telekinetic)
1. Gift of Alacrity, Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Sleep
2. Dragon's Breath, Web, Cloud of Daggers, Rope Trick
3. Fireball, Counterspell, Phantom Steed, Tiny Hut
4. Polymorph, Dimension Door

Preparation:
Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Gift of Alacrity, Silvery Barbs, Web, Cloud of Daggers, Fireball, Counterspell, Dimension Door

Familiar:
Owl
CLineage Chronurgist is probably the easiest run. Basically just:
0: Chill Touch, Mold Earth, Minor Illusion, Conjure Bonfire, Mage Hand
1: Gift of Alacrity, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, [Mage Armor; Cured Leather from leather armor worn by i.a. Xvarts, Duergar Mind Master & Scouts]
2: Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, [Web; strand of spider web from probably any corner of the lighthouse], [Cloud of Daggers; a sliver of glass sounds feasible in an old lighthouse given the beacon, whisky bottles, etc. should contain glass]
3: Counterspell, [Fireball; Bat guano is obviously available if there are bats and it contains sulfur natively]
4: Dimension Door

First, plop in and plop out the Owl. In this case, I think he wants to plop it outside the Wall since he knows there's a wall next to him and he at least has a small amount of time to look through the familiars eyes; since the Owl appears in the middle of the tower, I think there's a reasonable shot that the Scouts don't notice it since they're probably looking up or to the middle. Scouts have Passive Perception of 20 for sight and hearing (holy **** that's high), Owls have a Stealth of +3 so let's roll:
Stealth: 15

Owl is heard. So Initiative.
Owl: 16
Scout: 10
Chronurgist: 9

Owl takes a lookaround and telepathically informs the Wizard of the surrounding area (120' darkvision so it should have a reasonable chance. Scouts look for the owl from the sides, notice it, and pincushion it:
First attack: 22. Down goes the Owl.

However, the Wizard does have information of the surroundings now. Crucially he hasn't yet had to move or take any visible actions. Telekinetic lets him summon an invisible Mage Hand to take off his gag and he casts Dimension Door towards the exit and 500' off inland. Takes off his stuff effortlessly and escapes while the captors are left wondering what the **** just happened (I'd rule that 500' is too far for the Iron Shadow to reasonably realize that the PC is there especially since he'll try to act stealthily - rolled Stealth in case for a total of 24 so he should be just fine).
Result: Escape


Just one point I don't get: how does the Chronurgy Wizard know they can summon their Familiar outside of the building, before they know they're in a building (as opposed to a room underground, underwater or the like)?


How are we treating the stairs? They look pretty steep, almost like a ladder climb. Is it climbing, difficult terrain, or something else? And how many squares of movement?

Neither climbing nor difficult terrain, but they're only large enough for one Medium creature to walk in without squeezing. I would personally rule they take 2 squares of movement from getting from the first step to the last one.



Also, the xvarts are seated. So are they standing from essentially the prone condition when they first act?

I rule that being seated isn't the same as being prone, as I see the Prone condition as "you're on the ground". So the Xvarts getting up would not cost them any movement.

I could see the argument for making the square with the chair count as difficult terrain if you're sitting on it, though.


This is why at least half the clerics that I have played with has their holy symbol tattooed on them. To show devotion to their god and definitely not metagaming for the eventuality that the DM would take his holy symbol away.

I mean, tattooed symbols don't mean they will not be dealt with if you're captured.

[Dr.Samurai]

Ah ok, I thought they were seated on the ground. Good to know on stairs as well.

Edit: So far, running a human champion fighter through this. At the moment, have used up Action Surge and Second Wind, and all I have to show for it are two lousy dead xvarts lol. He's just made his save against the Mind Master, but I'm afraid though he's been lucky this far, this won't be a medieval fantasy retelling of the events at Nakatomi Tower.

[Dr.Samurai]

Ok, I attempted with a plain old Variant Human Fighter (Champion).

Attempt was a failure.

All rolls are in dice roller thread.

Relevant Stats

Strength 20
Dexterity 16
Constitution 16
Fighting Style - Dueling
Feat - Irrelevant (could have been shield master or expertise or anything really, taking Alert would have had an impact but seems like too tailor made for this)
AC (Unarmored) - 13
Initiative +5 (Peerless Athlete)
Check to break Manacles +5 (Peerless Athlete)

So, I rolled initiative for the second floor, since the fighter would be stirring groggily before leaping to his feat, the bat would alert the xvarts. Through some lucky rolls, the fighter rolled a 21 on their Initiative, but the freaking second xvart rolled a nat 20 for a 22. First xvart attack misses. Fighter pops up, Second Wind, breaks manacles on first try with a good roll, and REALIZATION: Ok, I just realized I used Action Surge twice. So this attempt is no good. Apologies for that, it was a bit to keep track of trying to roll for actions contingent on results and I forgot I had already used it to remove the bindings on the hands. So without Action Surge on round 2, the xvart would have dealt 6 more damage, and the fighter would have died on round 3 to the speaker instead of on round 4 to the mind master.

But basically, the attempt was break the manacles, kill the xvarts, grab a shortsword, run to the the top of the stairs going down. Shove the first hobgoblin up down to fall into the others behind him. But after that, there wasn't much to do; there was just less and less space to move around in. Check out the rolls (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?545966-Dice-Roller-Test-Thread-V-The-Polyhedron-Strikes-Back&p=25718475#post25718475), as the fighter was surviving by the skin of his teeth lol.

[Dork_Forge]

Actually telekinetic movement requires you to see the target based on RAW, so even taking off the blindfold may not be possible.

The blindfold is the only thing that you can see, that's... kind of the point of them.


Okay, so let's do this:


8 Str
16 Dex
15 Con
16 Int
8 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion
Nature

ASIs:
B. Alert
4. Lucky

Spells:
0. Chill Touch, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Control Flames
1. Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Sleep
2. Misty Step, Web, Pyrotechnics, Suggestion
3. Hypnotic Pattern, Fireball, Counterspell, Phantom Steed
4. Summon Greater Demon, Polymorph

Preparation:
Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Web, Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Summon Greater Demon

Familiar:
Bat
Vuman Diviner has a pretty terrible set of abilities for this. Spells that don't have components or have components that are potentially accessible (in parentheses):
0: Chill Touch, Mold Earth, Minor Illusion, Control Flames.
1: Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, [Mage Armor; Cured Leather from leather armor worn by i.a. Xvarts, Duergar Mind Master & Scouts], [Sleep; there's probably a pinch of sand somewhere around an old lighthouse]
2: Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, [Web; strand of spider web from probably any corner of the lighthouse]
3: Counterspell

Further, for most spells he needs to get both the bindings (1 action), mouth (1 free item interaction) and eyes (1 free item interaction) free but he has a hard time doing that. Good news is that Find Familiar states you can send the familiar to the demiplane (from anywhere so even if it escaped with the party, as long as it exists, this works) and a second one to insert it anywhere within 30' of him: those don't have any but mental actions assigned to them.

Portent rolls: 8, 2. Would be awesome for a normal situation but for this situation? I'd need those high rolls, thank you very much.

So he'll plop his familiar (a bat, as per his Pyrotechnics spell: only flying blindsighted familiar option) right next to himself about 10' in front of him (I think he knows where the wall is based on the manacles and the chain) and look around getting telepathic information of the environment. I don't think this would provoke an alert from the bat as it's another bat; at least it should be curious enough to converse with the new arrival, especially given there is another bat in the house. Nor should it provoke a reaction from anybody else since the Xvarts are drunk and barely paying attention, there is a second bat in the house and I don't think they'd care about the bats discussing between themselves; they are under directions to alert the Xvarts if something important happens after all. Also since the guard bat is using sonar constantly (keeping his senses constantly alert for the PC), the use of sonar should also do nothing special.

As soon as he realizes the existence of the guard Bat, the familiar will try and convince it to help with a promise of more food down the line while taking item interaction to lower the blindfold a bit so that the PC can see (first lowering the Blindfold to enable the Diviner to use Portents). As he's also aware of the Xvarts, he'll try to be quiet enough to not alert the Xvarts (I think Bat's "Deception" vs. Xvarts' "Passive Perception" at advantage (and disadvantage cancelling out) because they understand bat speech sounds fair enough; I would say DC 15 Persuasion check for the Bat familiar to convince the Bat to help [sounds like Moderate given they are the same species and the guard Bat has no reason to either doubt or believe them], DC 10 to do nothing), but I think they'll be more alert anyways meaning the PC actions will trigger. Basically I think in this case his best case scenario is just getting his hands free, removing the eye

Bat rolls: 13 for Deception, 5 for Persuasion. ****. Lucky is personal and Portents were too low to be of help anyways; Silvery Barbs has V components and the mouth is still blocked. Xvarts do not really pay attention but the Bat is not helping; in fact, it warns the Xvarts that it's suspicious of the new arrival.

Roll Initiative:
NPC Bat: 9
Familiar: 11
Diviner: Use Portent on own Initiative to roll a 2 (thus a total of 10 with his +8) - he has no real chance if he goes before the Bat. Conveniently this lets him go right after.
Xvart: Disadvantage due to Poisoned, rolls of 16 and 2; so 4

Initiative order:
Familiar
Diviner
Bat
Xvart

For now, others aren't active yet. Familiar removes the gag as an item interaction and takes an action to remove the bandages on hands.

Diviner acts, uses bonus action to Misty Step out of the manacles up the stairs, moves upstairs picking up fine sand if there is any to be had as an item interaction, and moves to the wall next to one Scout taking the Dodge-action. This adds Duergar Mindmaster, Scouts & Hobgoblin Iron Shadow to the Initiative as they hear the spell being cast as well as everyone from the first floor. As the Duergar is "watching the PC intently", he probably should get to act on this turn yet.

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow: 21
Hobgoblin: 17
Scout: 12
Xvart Speaker: 7
Duergar Mindmaster: 6

Initiative order:
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow
Hobgoblin
Scout
Familiar
Diviner
Bat
Xvart Speaker
Duergar Mindmaster
Xvart


Bat dashes up too yelling alerts. Mindmaster moves to the PC and attacks at Disadvantage (likely better than Mind Mastery knowing that the PC is a Wizard specifically). Lots of rolls follow so I'm only posting die rolls (Mind Master & Iron Shadow are +5, Xvarts & Scouts are +4, Hobgoblins are +3):
9/4 and 12/9: with Shield cast AC is 18, the attacks fail

Xvarts also move up and attack at disadvantage:
5/2 and 11/1. Both miss.

Up from the top, Hobgoblin Iron Shadow casts Expeditious Retreat, climbs up and attacks 4 times:
18/3
14/6
12/8
20/16

Last one threatens a hit. Lucky to reroll:
10

Okay, still alive somehow. Hobgoblins rush up the stairs to see what the commotion is about. They can't quite get to attack since it's 35' up and their move is only 30'. Instead they dash next to the PC to threaten an opportunity attack. Scouts attack:
15/8
19/6
8/10
18/6

Still no hit.

Familiar dashes up to fly out with the PC. Probably gets killed by OA.

Diviner Misty Steps down to the height of 5' diagonally 30', moves 30' and he's on dirt now. Mold Earth to create himself a 5' hole with a 5' obstacle in the direction of the lighthouse. This should provide total cover from the enemies in the lighthouse save for the Iron Shadow.

All the enemies aside from Duergar Mind Master merely ready an action to fire at the Wizard should he appear. Hobgoblin Iron Shadow uses Shadow Jaunt to reach 5' off the bottom of the lighthouse and rushes at the Wizard's hideout attacking in melee:

Iron Shadow:
1
1
16 forcing Lucky and Shield: 2
14 forcing Lucky: 6

Now, if he had found fine sand he'd have a reasonable shot at Sleeping the Hobgoblin. I'll roll a d100 with a 50% chance (above 50 for sand - it doesn't seem unreasonable on a shore building from boots or on the road or whatever): 81

Okay, so he was able to pick up sand in the lighthouse or on the outside while running. Therefore he casts Sleep from a level 4 slot:
60

Iron Shadow falls asleep. Duergar Mind Master dashes climbing down of the lighthouse. He's 60' off. Rest keep their readied action. Diviner breathes deep, Misty Steps 30' away, volley (at disadvantage due to 90' being outside the tower residents' line of sight):
Use 8 on Portent on the first Xvart.
6/12
19/4

Hobgoblins:
16/11
13/12
8/5

Scouts:
1/20
18/15 (+4 for 19 which exceeds the AC of 18)

And that's dead. It was fairly close: I think it's reasonable to claim that if he got to move out of sight range and Hide, he'd have a shot. But Lucky ran out too early and having to take those 4 attacks from Hobgoblin Iron Shadow without disadvantage was just too much. Worth noting that if he had Mage Armor up, he'd have been fine (AC of 21 at disadvantage is already pretty rough: Lucky would've largely been spared even). Then again, without Sleep he would've just gotten run down by the Iron Shadow so that's also down to DM decision (in this case, with no further info, I just used a percentile die as I would in my own game to determine random plausible factors).

It's also possible to rule that as the PC is outside the monster view range after the Misty Step, they can't attack accurately or that the PC could Hide first and Misty Step then in which case I think he has a reasonable chance of escaping: he just needs one-two more turns to get to reasonable cover. But I think this is the closest to RAW where people tend to be daredevils more or less.

Still, I think this demonstrates the power of Alert (so seeing the attackers doesn't matter; very relevant for a character without Darkvision) + Lucky + high AC + Disadvantage (Pyrotechnics, Dodge, etc.). However, you can't of course rely on it forever. The Iron Shadow was definitely the crux in this run: can't run, can't hide, have to deal with him somehow but just don't have the actions to. No Dodge = death.
Result: Death (ranged weapons can't be used to knock unconscious - surprisingly good run though, got really close)

- Any creature suddenly porting into the room is suspicious AF, regardless of if it's another bat or not
- A second bat not only appearing but conversing and not being noticed is, a stretch, but it didn't go anywhere anyway
- Feels like the bat got away with an entire turn (removing the blindfold) that they shouldn't have...
- Sleep requires specifically 'fine sand,' assuming any old beach sand tracked in would work feels like a really big stretch, especially since the lighthouse isn't on the beach to begin with... But also identifying and gathering it as nothing more than an object interaction?
- I think the Wizard did the last Misty Step into darkness, as a human with no features that grant darkvision that shouldn't have been possible.



8 Str
14 Dex
15 Con
18 Int
10 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
B. Lucky
4. Telekinetic (+1 Int)

Spells:
0. Chill Touch, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Conjure Bonfire, Mage Hand (Telekinetic)
1. Gift of Alacrity, Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Sleep
2. Dragon's Breath, Web, Cloud of Daggers, Rope Trick
3. Fireball, Counterspell, Phantom Steed, Tiny Hut
4. Polymorph, Dimension Door

Preparation:
Mage Armor, Shield, Absorb Elements, Gift of Alacrity, Silvery Barbs, Web, Cloud of Daggers, Fireball, Counterspell, Dimension Door

Familiar:
Owl
CLineage Chronurgist is probably the easiest run. Basically just:
0: Chill Touch, Mold Earth, Minor Illusion, Conjure Bonfire, Mage Hand
1: Gift of Alacrity, Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, [Mage Armor; Cured Leather from leather armor worn by i.a. Xvarts, Duergar Mind Master & Scouts]
2: Misty Step, Pyrotechnics, [Web; strand of spider web from probably any corner of the lighthouse], [Cloud of Daggers; a sliver of glass sounds feasible in an old lighthouse given the beacon, whisky bottles, etc. should contain glass]
3: Counterspell, [Fireball; Bat guano is obviously available if there are bats and it contains sulfur natively]
4: Dimension Door

First, plop in and plop out the Owl. In this case, I think he wants to plop it outside the Wall since he knows there's a wall next to him and he at least has a small amount of time to look through the familiars eyes; since the Owl appears in the middle of the tower, I think there's a reasonable shot that the Scouts don't notice it since they're probably looking up or to the middle. Scouts have Passive Perception of 20 for sight and hearing (holy **** that's high), Owls have a Stealth of +3 so let's roll:
Stealth: 15

Owl is heard. So Initiative.
Owl: 16
Scout: 10
Chronurgist: 9

Owl takes a lookaround and telepathically informs the Wizard of the surrounding area (120' darkvision so it should have a reasonable chance. Scouts look for the owl from the sides, notice it, and pincushion it:
First attack: 22. Down goes the Owl.

However, the Wizard does have information of the surroundings now. Crucially he hasn't yet had to move or take any visible actions. Telekinetic lets him summon an invisible Mage Hand to take off his gag and he casts Dimension Door towards the exit and 500' off inland. Takes off his stuff effortlessly and escapes while the captors are left wondering what the **** just happened (I'd rule that 500' is too far for the Iron Shadow to reasonably realize that the PC is there especially since he'll try to act stealthily - rolled Stealth in case for a total of 24 so he should be just fine).
Result: Escape

- The scouts are explicitly split with one looking out for the sky and one looking out for the ground, they don't monitor the floor they're on (per the challenge text)
- Like Unoriginal said, it's a bit of a leap that wall = exterior wall above ground.
- DDoor feels really handwaved here, the Owl scouted 120ft. and then the Wizard ported 500'. A change in elevation, an animal, rock, or errant tree instant downs the Wizard with 4d6 force damage.



8 Str
14 Dex
17 Con
16 Int
12 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Arcana
Investigation
Religion

ASIs:
4. Moderately Armored (+1 Dexterity)

Spells:
0. Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Fire Bolt
1. Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs, Feather Fall, Thunderwave, Find Familiar, Detect Magic, False Life
2. Misty Step, Web, Shatter, Rope Trick
3. Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Fly, Tiny Hut
4. Polymorph, Banishment

Preparation:
Shield, Absorb Elements, False Life, Feather Fall, Thunderwave, Misty Step, Fly, Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell, Banishment

Familiar:
Owl
This is pretty rough since he's an item user normally. He doesn't have weapon for Booming Blade nor armor and shield he has invested a race and a feat into. Still, he has Abjuration Ward, a decent set of utility spells, some ranged magic and a functional AOE in Thunderwave. If he had Fireball too I think he'd be golden but alas, he has Hypnotic Pattern instead meaning he has to get up to peoples' faces to kill them. Here's for figuring out how he'd do:
0: Booming Blade, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Fire Bolt
1: Shield, Absorb Elements, Thunderwave, [False Life; alcohol are obviously available based on the condition of the Xvarts: most likely a bottle close to them], [Feather Fall; otherwise a lost cause but Owl familiar does have feathers]
2: Misty Step
3: Counterspell, [Fly; as earlier, Owl familiar]
4: [Banishment; maybe something distasteful to the enemies might be available]

As others, he'll begin by sending his familiar to the pocket plane and then summoning it. As he's not able to teleport out, he'll summon it inside like the Diviner. Bat is not directed to tell of anything but changes with the PC and this one being linked to the PC is impercetible.

Either way, I think the Xvarts will rather quickly notice the Owl since there's nothing to hide in. Still, I think the PC will have a round's worth of time to look around with the familiar's eyes as the bat is in a situation it wasn't instructed on and the xvarts are still drunk and not paying that much attention. Probably just an initiative roll as the Owl is summoned:
Owl: 12
Xvart: 10
Abjurer: 12

Owl gives the abjurer quick telepathic information dump and helps the abjurer to first open his mouth and unbind his hands (free action + action). The Wizard needs Verbals. Unfortunately for him that leaves his eyes still bound which means he can't Misty Step. He needs to buy another turn, to which end he readies level 3 Thunderwave on the two Xvarts should they come in range (they're barely out of range initially, being 20' away with Thunderwave having a 15' range).

Xvarts yell that there's a fishy bird bhere doing all sorts of stuff and seeing that the Wizard's gag is removed they move up to him to clobber him to unconsciousness as directed. This triggers level 3 Thunderwave:
1, 8, 7, 2 for 18 damage meanings the Xvart die with a huge boom. Now everyone is immediately alerted by the huge boom:
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow: 16
Xvart Speaker: 11
Scouts: 10
Hobgoblin: 8
Duergar Mind Master: 4

Iron Shadow trusts his minions as stated earlier. Owl frees the Abjurer's eyes and Abjurer Misty Steps out to the far side of the room picking up a feather from the owl as a free action (Owl doesn't necessarily quite like it) and near the booze bottles. He then takes the Dodge action given no reasonable targets.

Xvart Speaker climbs up and tries to sling the Wizard:
9/16 meaning 13 so Shield is cast and Arcane Ward activates for 13 points of defense.

Two Hobgoblins get up and have longswords and shields ready but can't reach him to attack. Instead they dash on either side of the PC for opportunity attacks. Scouts ready attacks at either side of the stairs and the Mind Master turns invisible and moves down the stairs.

Abjurer moves 5' back so that both Hobgoblins are within 15' of it in the front and casts Thunderwave on 3 on the Hobgoblins: 2, 3, 6, 6 for 17. Hobgoblins thus get a save; one rolls 10, other rolls 15. One alive at 3 HP, one dead.

Xvart speaker attacks again moving into melee to give Hobgoblin Martial Advantage: 8, miss.

Hobgoblin calls his mate from the lower level for help and attacks with Longsword: 18, hit with martial advantage for:
2, 5, 4 +1 = 12

Arcane Ward down to 1 HP.

Duergar Mind Master moves up to the Wizard, attacks (first at advantage), and calls the Scouts for help:
19
25 (critical hit)

The Wizard is thoroughly knocked down. Needed Lucky here to have much of a chance, or one more turn to cast Fly or False Life; Fireball might've also saved him as it has a big enough AOE and damage to kill most enemies but alas, this one has CC and utility picks for 3rd level and Hypnotic Pattern does not have a reasonably accessible component.
Result: Prisoner permanently (knocked unconscious)

-Readying a spell means casting it then holding the cast, the Xvarts see a spellcaster with free mouth and hands cast a spell and then approach instead of slinging to death?
- Abjurer casts Shield and gets 13 points? This makes no sense... Shield should regen 2 points for the Ward, seeing as the PC was already beaten unconscious after a missions the Ward should be depleted, but even if this was activating it for the first time the numbers don't make sense.
- Also seem to have been planning to cast False Life, but it was stated that the Xvarts already finished the bottles



8 Str
14 Dex
16 Con
10 Int
18 Wis
8 Cha

Proficiencies:
Stealth
Nature
Perception
Insight
[Darkvision]

ASIs:
B. Resilient: Constitution
4. Fey-Touched: Silvery Barbs

Spells:
0. Guidance, Mold Earth, Magic Stone
1. Ice Knife, Goodberry, Cure Wounds, Thunderwave, Healing Word, Silvery Barbs
2. Pass without Trace, Spike Growth, Misty Step
3. Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, Tidal Wave
4. Conjure Woodland Beings
Time for something different! Let's Druid it up!

0. Guidance, Mold Earth, [Magic Stone; stones are probably available somewhere]
1. Thunderwave, Goodberry, Cure Wounds, Healing Word, Silvery Barbs,
2. Misty Step
3. Conjure Animals, Plant Growth, [Tidal Wave; a drop of water is probably available on a seaside hill]

Here the big issue is getting rid of the restraints. Using Wild Companion would require V and S components and there's no Telekinetic either. That means the only real option is using Wild Shape. I think turning into something extremely small and trying to hide with that is the highest probability strategy: however, that is very DM-dependent so I'll try and fight it out with combat forms.

Wild Shape says "[i]You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it." - obviously I'll choose that my "equipment" falls to the ground to get rid of the restraints. I think this means Manacles should also fall off when I use the ability regardless of the size of my new form unless I choose to "wear them" (I think this is obvious when thinking about turning into e.g. a Snake or whatever - there's no way for limb-based items to be worn by such a creature).

I'll start off by turning into a Giant Poisonous Snake. Initiative is rolled as the Xvarts certainly notice "something" is up:
Xvart: 18 (in spite of disadvantage, holy hell!)
Druid: 15

Xvart switch to slings in the face of a large (large as an adjective, size is medium) poisonous snake.
Attacks:
11
5

Both miss. Xvarts yell the alert.
Duergar Mind Master: 23
Scout: 21
Xvart Speaker: 11
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow: 5
Hobgoblin: 4


Druid takes bonus action to shift back to humanoid form, moves to position to see up and down the stairs, and casts Conjure Animals for 8x CR 1/4 creature. To keep it fair, rolling randomly out of the CR 1/4 creatures (36 in my database) on a d36 (thanks Roll20) from:
Giant Bat
Axe Beak
Diatryma
Draft Horse
Giant Lizard
Giant Riding Lizard
Hadrosaurus
Dimetrodon
Giant Frog
Guthash
Cow
Ox
Rothé
Stench Kow
Elk
Golden Stag
Riding Horse
Yak
Zebra
Deep Rothé
Giant Badger
Pteranodon
Small Drake
Giant Poisonous Snake
Boar
Giant Centipede
Hellwasp Grub
Velociraptor
Panther
Giant Wolf Spider
Sled Dog
Wolf
Fastieth
Giant Owl
Maxeene
Awakened Elk

13 (Rothé)

Spawn 3 Rothés (19 HP thanks to Mighty Summons) over 20' from the Xvarts (Xvarts are on the far side of the room), 2 downstairs with one blocking the stairs and 3 upstairs with one blocking the stairs. Orders given: charge the armed humanoids to the rest, the two at the stairs are told to defend the stairs. Rothé Initiative:
4

Initiative order:
Duergar Mind Master
Scout
Xvart
Druid
Xvart Speaker
Hobgoblin Iron Shadow
Hobgoblin
Rothé

Xvart Speaker quickly relays the alert to the Hobgoblins though they don't exactly require help figuring things out when two bovines appear in front of them. He then proceeds to club the Rothé closer to Hobgoblins moving next to it:
10 hits for 6 (4+2) damage. Rothé down to 13.

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow still trusts his allies but casts the Silent Image. Hobgoblins move to attack with their Longswords trying to cut their way to the upper floor:
18
7
23 (crit)

Rothé takes 7 damage down to 6 then a crit for 29 (6+7 for d8s + 6+1+4+4 for d6s) absolutely obliterating him. One Rothé remaining downstairs. Rothés turn.

Three Rothés charge the two Xvarts in the middle floor:
14
21

First two hit for:
1+4+1+4 = 10
6+6+4+4 = 20

damage. One Xvart is completely pasted on the walls, the other just dies. The cornered Rothé downstairs holding the stairs moves on to attack the closest Hobgoblin:
7

The third Rothé from middle floor squeezes 15' down the stairs to fight in the first floor. Can't get to attack position.

The upstairs two of the Rothés charge the Scouts:
24 for 1+4+6+4 = 15
19 for 6+5+4 = 19

One is dead, one left at one HP. The last Rothé, ordered to defend, stands still and readies an attack at any approaching enemy.

Duergar Mind Master has a tough choice: OTOH he could try to get past the Rothé by Reducing himself to attack the PC but he could probably also kill the guard Rothé in one go. I think he's ultimately better served by improving his AC in this situation so he uses Reduce and moves underneath the Rothé holding the stairs trying to get to the Druid he knows is behind this. Rothe takes opportunity attack at AC 19:
20 for 5 damage (down to 34 HP)

Duergar shrugs it off and walks past it downstairs but stays one step from the floor to avoid easy attacks from the Rothé he sees down there alongside his two pasted friends. There's nothing to hide in so he opts to just try and remain safe from as many minions as possible hoping to get to the Druid next turn or first Invisiblying and Hiding and then going.

Scout at 1 HP desperately takes his shortsword and attacks the Rothé that rammed him (he can't really afford to take an opportunity attack so his options are Dodging or Attacking and his only real hope of survival is to kill the Rothé before it kills him):
15 for 6
16 for 6

Rothé is down to 7 HP.

The Druid is up. He uses Spirit Bear Totem to give his allies advantage on Strength checks and +10 temporary HP (the two Rothés upstairs that charged are outside its area of effect though). Then he moves downstairs and casts Cure Wounds on level 4 on himself for:
1, 3, 6, 6 + 4 = 20 HP

Up to 21 HP and 10 temporary HP. Tells the defending Rothés too to just charge anyone they can as the battlefield has devolved into chaos.

Xvart Speaker keeps on the pressure piling on the Rothé at the stairs:
7 for a miss

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow hears fighting and yelling from the roof but also from downstairs thus wanting to maintain his Silent Image. Therefore he Shadow Jaunts to the wall and 30' up, climbing the rest of the way, sees the three Rothés and tries to help the Scout by Darting the one in front of it:
8
12 for 4
21 for 7 killing the Rothé
24 for 7 on the other charging Rothé (down to 12)

Hobgoblins pile up too downstairs:
20 for 13 damage
7
21 for 8 damage

Two hits. The Rothé has 29 HP thanks to the Spirit Bear totem at the top of the stairs meaning it survives at 7 HP.

The previously defending Rothé upstairs charges the Scout:
9, miss

The remaining upstairs Rothé charges the Scout too:
20 for 19 damage, he's squished.

The second floor Rothés try to attack the Mind Master but they have to squeeze in the stairs meaning only one gets to attack, they attack at disadvantage and can't reasonably charge:
11 + 15 for 17, barely miss
Second moves to the lower stairs and readies an attack in case any enemy comes within range.

Bottom floor has the two Rothés fighting for their life. The first one hits the same Hobgoblin as last time:
15 - miss

The one in the stairs hits at disadvantage:
8/5 so a miss

Mind Master goes Invisible, uses Hide at 17 (the Druid's Passive Perception with +3 Prof +4 Wis is exactly 17 so he notices him still, others don't though) and moves to the bottom of the stairs and 20' in so that he can attack the Druid the next round regardless of what the Druid does.

Scouts and Xvarts are dead so it's down to Druid. Druid moves within 15' of where he perceives the Duergar Mind Master and casts Thunderwave from a level 2 slot. Mind Master rolls 1 for Con-save, is knocked 10' back (35' off the Druid as he moves back), takes 6+2+8 = 16 damage, rolls Concentration on his Invisibility and succeeds (17). He's down to 17. Druid again moves back re-establishing distance and preventing the Mind Master from getting within 30' of him that turn.

EDIT: It is at this point that I realize that MPMM version of Mind Master has Reduce as a bonus action while the MTF version, which I had been running, has it as an action. This is a significant buff to the monster as it could've just Reduced and turned Invisible for even more shanking on the same turn but...well, both are valid versions. It would most likely just result in one more dead Rothé. Actually, I'll just have the Mind Master attack the Rothé he was moving under while Reduced; that's the easiest to retroactively apply:
10 for 15 damage
9 (miss)

This means that one of the roof Rothés is dead; otherwise not much of significance changes. So there's one Rothé left on the roof (the Rothé that died missed its charge anyways so it's not that significant - the Scout would've died anyways).

Anyways, Xvart Speaker acts:
7, miss

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow attacks the remaining Rothé:
8
15 for 6
17 for 4
11 for 5

Down to 4 HP. He also moves to the stairs with movement (can't Shadow Jaunt due to the brasero in the top floor: terrain he teleports from needs to be dim light or darkness as well, but I would assume most of the stairs are brightly lit due to the brasero too)

Hobgoblins act:
21 for 16 - first stair defender goes down
18/17 for 10
8/23 (Critical) for 19 - both are down

Rothés are up. There are two in the floor with the Mind Master, who I would argue as a consequence of the Thunderwave knockback + knockdown is no longer hidden though still Invisible:
4/6
20/8

Both miss. The top floor one tries to attack the Iron Shadow in the stairs:
9/9 for 15 total for 8 damage (down to 24)

Duergar Mind Master moves in, uses Mind Mastery to try and make the Druid walk 10' closer so he can shank him:
Druid's Int save roll 3 (total 6)

Druid has to move forward. As Mind Mastery is technically neither a spell nor an attack, it doesn't break Invisibility. Mind Master attacks at advantage (oh yeah, Invisibility not yet recovered):
15

Druid uses Silvery Barbs for reroll giving himself advantage on his next roll:
Duergar rerolls for 6, missing.

Druid casts Conjure Animals again for 31: Sled Dog (basically just reskinned Wolves) surrounding the Mind Master initially.

3 Initiative

One Sled Dog blocks the stairs and 7 surround the Mind Master. Order at all of them: bite him and move away.

Xvart Speaker moves up and attacks the Sled Dog in front of the stairs
5 - miss

Hobgoblin Iron Shadow gets within 20' of the Druid and lets loose with Darts, albeit against cover due to the Sled Dogs surrounding the Mind Master and the Druid (effective AC 14).
11 - miss
22 for 8 damage (down to 22 + 2 temporary) - Concentration at advantage for 8/14 + 6 = 20
21 Silvery Barbsed into 8 for miss and advantage again given to the Druid
8

After that he moves back to the stairs for cover. I don't think he can Shadow Jaunt here either since at least Hooded Lantern gives 30' of bright light thus lighting the entire floor.

Hobgoblins try to get up but they're blocked by the Sled Dog and the Xvart and they'd have to take a turn to doff their shields to use their bows. I think they do just that given they need to get through the stairs and there's no other good way available.

Sled Dogs' turn (again just rolls, they have +4):
6/17 for 7 (9/13 on the save so he goes prone)
1/8 for miss
18/11 for 7 (he's down to 3 HP)
5/2 for miss
10/13 for miss
7/4 for miss
13/2 for miss

They move off first taking disadvantage OA from the Mind Master (1/5, miss) due to him being prone. The one in the stairs moves in too taking 5 damage OA from the Xvart Speaker.

18/2 for 8 damage. Mind Master is dead.

Pack is ready for more. 4 are near the Iron Shadow, rest are waiting atop the bottom stairs.

Druid's turn. He moves to the bottom stairs and casts Thunderwave 2 on the Speaker and 2 of the Hobgoblins: 6 + 2 + 4 = 12 damage.
Saves:
Xvart Speaker: 6
Hobgoblin #1: 2
Hobgoblin #2: 9

They all die. One Hobgoblin and Hobgoblin Iron Shadow is left. Druid moves pack behind the animal pack and orders them to finish off all remaining enemies. Hobgoblin Iron Shadow tries once more to drop the Concentration on the Druid, though due to the Sled Dogs in front of him he has to take four OAs to not attack at disadvantage (again, lightning conditions too good for the Shadow Jaunt ability) though two of them are at cover from the stairs:
13/19 for 9: Str save 16 to stay standing
20/11 (critical) for 9: Str save 4 to fall over
18/2 for 6
10/1 missing

He takes a total of 24/32 damage, uses 20' movement to stand up again, moves back, attacks four times:
13
8
9
7

Four misses. This provokes him to Expeditious Retreat, move to top floor and start climbing down: he's not here to die. The last Hobgoblin feebly attacks the guard of dogs in front of him:
18 for 8 damage. He then pulls back.

Dogs charge down the stairs after the Hobgoblin, dragging him down and ripping him to shreds (18 without advantage for 9 damage, then advantageous 20/7 for lethal). Rest clear out the roof, though they can't climb so the Iron Shadow is able to get away from them.

Druid walks up, casts Magic Stone and readies action to attack the Iron Shadow should he appear. He then climbs down, turns into a...say Warhorse and Dashes away (the Iron Shadow can't really keep up and even if he wanted to, he's got 8 HP so he's one spell from dead and he knows he can't kill the Druid so I think he retreats at this point). I guess he could also get to the sea and turn into Reef Shark or something: it doesn't really matter, this one should be a win.

EDIT: I may have had the stairs wrong; I somehow thought they were all on the same side but reading it again, I gather the first floor stairs are on the opposite side and then the other two staircases on the other one? That shouldn't terribly hugely matter; the summons would just happen on the second floor and the top floor then since those are the most important ones WRT escaping.
Result: Victorious battle

- You're treating manacles chained to a wall like worn/carried equipment, Unoriginal gave a clear answer to your WildShape question. Going smaller is escape, same size doesn't benefit and you simply can't go larger.
- Yes, you got the stairs wrong, and it does matter, the Druid summoned 8 Large creatures in a very small confined space. You can only summon creatures to spaces you can see, so that's one Rothe upstairs max, that leaves 7 large creatures to fit on the 2nd floor with the Druid. At best that's extremely awkward to move around in for the Rothes themselves., however, I'm not entirely sure you can even fit 7 large creatures on that floor along with the Druid and Xvarts.
- The Mind Master spends an entire turn on Invisible, instead of using Mind Mastery as directed. Even if he doesn't use it on the PC, he could get a Rothe to attack the Druid or block their way. This doesn't seem to line up with the 'how the monsters act' section.
- There's a lot of the Druid moving to avoid being within 30ft. of the Mind Master. It's a 45ft. circle, if they're on the same floor (which they certainly seem to be) it's impossible to prevent that by just movement.
- There seems to be a lot of wasted monster action, like hobs spending a turn shifting weapons instead of moving into the Xvart's space to attack the sled dog one by one.
- The Ironshadow retreats 'he isn't here to die' ...where did you get that idea? You just arbitrarily made the biggest threat flee?

I think there's a fair few question marks over the runs, even those that didn't succeed, but it highlights the ridiculous nature of Silvery Barbs and the way Find Familiar is written, at least.





Ok, I attempted with a plain old Variant Human Fighter (Champion).

Attempt was a failure.


For what it's worth, I don't think you applied disadvantage to the Xvart's initiative from the poisoned condition?

What made you go with the Fighter build that you chose?

[Gignere]

The blindfold is the only thing that you can see, that's... kind of the point of them

Technically not because a blindfold blocks light, so you’re not even seeing the blindfold. However forget about physics just RAW the blindfold confers the blind condition so RAW you can’t use abilities that require sight until the condition is remedied.

[Dork_Forge]

Technically not because a blindfold blocks light, so you’re not even seeing the blindfold. However forget about physics just RAW the blindfold confers the blind condition so RAW you can’t use abilities that require sight until the condition is remedied.

Darkvision gives a lovely shot of grey fabric, this isn't real life.

As for blindfold=Blinded... according to what? Blindfold isn't an item in the game, nor is being blindfolded explicitly covered in the PHB or DMG. As far as I can see there's no RAW basis to deny this, Darkvision ignores the lack of light problem.

Do you have a source to deny this?

[Unoriginal]

The blindfold is the only thing that you can see, that's... kind of the point of them.

Indeed.



- A second bat not only appearing but conversing and not being noticed is, a stretch, but it didn't go anywhere anyway
- Feels like the bat got away with an entire turn (removing the blindfold) that they shouldn't have...

Keeping in mind that the Xvarts know the Bats who are allowed in the lighthouse.



- The scouts are explicitly split with one looking out for the sky and one looking out for the ground, they don't monitor the floor they're on (per the challenge text)

Technically they're both looking at the sky, but one is looking at the sky above the sea and one is looking at the sky above the ground.



- DDoor feels really handwaved here, the Owl scouted 120ft. and then the Wizard ported 500'. A change in elevation, an animal, rock, or errant tree instant downs the Wizard with 4d6 force damage.

That would make for a fun ending to the escape attempt, tbf.




-Readying a spell means casting it then holding the cast, the Xvarts see a spellcaster with free mouth and hands cast a spell and then approach instead of slinging to death?

Xvarts would probably wonder how they're not dead for a second, then sling the foe to death. Pulp Fiction style.



- You're treating manacles chained to a wall like worn/carried equipment, Unoriginal gave a clear answer to your WildShape question. Going smaller is escape, same size doesn't benefit and you simply can't go larger.

Indeed.

I see Wild Shape as a physical transformation à la Animorph cover, with limbs physically growing/decreasing in size, or retracting into the body if the creature you're turning into doesn't have them, so if you have your limbs restrained the morph can't happen.



- Yes, you got the stairs wrong, and it does matter, the Druid summoned 8 Large creatures in a very small confined space. You can only summon creatures to spaces you can see, so that's one Rothe upstairs max, that leaves 7 large creatures to fit on the 2nd floor with the Druid. At best that's extremely awkward to move around in for the Rothes themselves., however, I'm not entirely sure you can even fit 7 large creatures on that floor along with the Druid and Xvarts.

7 Large creatures means 28 squares on the ground. I checked, there is room for them on the floor and then some, but yeah, awkward to move around still.



- The Mind Master spends an entire turn on Invisible, instead of using Mind Mastery as directed. Even if he doesn't use it on the PC, he could get a Rothe to attack the Druid or block their way. This doesn't seem to line up with the 'how the monsters act' section.

True. Could even have the Rothe walks out of the lighthouse to its death.



- There's a lot of the Druid moving to avoid being within 30ft. of the Mind Master. It's a 45ft. circle, if they're on the same floor (which they certainly seem to be) it's impossible to prevent that by just movement.

And the lighthouse itself is 35ft tall, roof included, so anyone on top floor is still within 30ft of anyone inside the building.



- The Ironshadow retreats 'he isn't here to die' ...where did you get that idea? You just arbitrarily made the biggest threat flee?

That part is puzzling. Hobgoblins are lawful evil and known for their iron-clad discipline, even for the grunts.

[Eldariel]

The blindfold is the only thing that you can see, that's... kind of the point of them.

That's not how sight works. You see light. If light is blocked, you see nothing. Not even the thing blocking the light.

Not that it really matters, I think the Iron Shadow is the bigger issue. Mind Master has 120' Darkvision meaning he'll fairly accurately see where you land being able to inform the Iron Shadow, and the Iron Shadow can keep up while attacking up to 4 times a turn, meaning Protective Field is not that useful. In the run you made, if Iron Shadow just moves 80' (Expeditious Retreat) and Shadow Jaunts 30', he's about within 10' unless you try to swim away (a potentially valid strategy for Psi War) and gets his 4 attacks vs. AC 14. And next round he can repeat.


- Any creature suddenly porting into the room is suspicious AF, regardless of if it's another bat or not
- A second bat not only appearing but conversing and not being noticed is, a stretch, but it didn't go anywhere anyway
- Feels like the bat got away with an entire turn (removing the blindfold) that they shouldn't have...
- Sleep requires specifically 'fine sand,' assuming any old beach sand tracked in would work feels like a really big stretch, especially since the lighthouse isn't on the beach to begin with... But also identifying and gathering it as nothing more than an object interaction?
- I think the Wizard did the last Misty Step into darkness, as a human with no features that grant darkvision that shouldn't have been possible.

- I'd say all real sand, especially beach/ocean sand, is "fine sand" as such (it's chemical composition is silicondioxide and it occurs specifically on shores and seabed, as sea wears down on the surface). I could imagine old stone stairs to have plenty of sand on them to just pick up as you walk past them; then again, they might not. That's why I rolled the percentile. But that doesn't really matter, it was a failure anyways.
- Bat appearing is suspicious of course but you have two drunk Xvarts; I don't imagine they could link the bat appearing to the Wizard or even notice it immediately. I did have them notice it after 6 seconds: given the situation, I think that's reasonable.
- Good point on the Misty Step, I agree with your point here. Didn't really matter but it's good to keep in mind: the last jump would be impossible anyways..


- The scouts are explicitly split with one looking out for the sky and one looking out for the ground, they don't monitor the floor they're on (per the challenge text)
- Like Unoriginal said, it's a bit of a leap that wall = exterior wall above ground.
- DDoor feels really handwaved here, the Owl scouted 120ft. and then the Wizard ported 500'. A change in elevation, an animal, rock, or errant tree instant downs the Wizard with 4d6 force damage.

Well, Owl's speed is 60' and it got an action; that's 120' of movement (dash) and 120' further of sight; that should be more than enough to ascertain the inclination of the land.


- Readying a spell means casting it then holding the cast, the Xvarts see a spellcaster with free mouth and hands cast a spell and then approach instead of slinging to death?
- Abjurer casts Shield and gets 13 points? This makes no sense... Shield should regen 2 points for the Ward, seeing as the PC was already beaten unconscious after a missions the Ward should be depleted, but even if this was activating it for the first time the numbers don't make sense.
- Also seem to have been planning to cast False Life, but it was stated that the Xvarts already finished the bottles

- That's reasonable. I see readying a spell more as holding until the trigger happens and then casting the spell.
- Ward was activated; we assumed all resources available.
- I find it REALLY hard to imagine the bottles are completely empty and it only takes "alcohol" to cast the spell.



- You're treating manacles chained to a wall like worn/carried equipment, Unoriginal gave a clear answer to your WildShape question. Going smaller is escape, same size doesn't benefit and you simply can't go larger.
- Yes, you got the stairs wrong, and it does matter, the Druid summoned 8 Large creatures in a very small confined space. You can only summon creatures to spaces you can see, so that's one Rothe upstairs max, that leaves 7 large creatures to fit on the 2nd floor with the Druid. At best that's extremely awkward to move around in for the Rothes themselves., however, I'm not entirely sure you can even fit 7 large creatures on that floor along with the Druid and Xvarts.
- The Mind Master spends an entire turn on Invisible, instead of using Mind Mastery as directed. Even if he doesn't use it on the PC, he could get a Rothe to attack the Druid or block their way. This doesn't seem to line up with the 'how the monsters act' section.
- There's a lot of the Druid moving to avoid being within 30ft. of the Mind Master. It's a 45ft. circle, if they're on the same floor (which they certainly seem to be) it's impossible to prevent that by just movement.
- There seems to be a lot of wasted monster action, like hobs spending a turn shifting weapons instead of moving into the Xvart's space to attack the sled dog one by one.
- The Ironshadow retreats 'he isn't here to die' ...where did you get that idea? You just arbitrarily made the biggest threat flee?

- I went with what I found reasonable. FWIW I could've turned into Velociraptor/Giant Rat or whatever; it doesn't really matter since the Wildshape form doesn't do anything but drop the stuff. I just like Snakes so I went with a Snake form (plus it seems beyond obvious to me that if you go from a humanoid with big limbs to a snake whose limbs are miniscule, you'll easily fall out of manacles - you can't just look at size, you have to look at the shape of the creature too). Plus the RAW of the ability says "equipment falls off" if I so want so I think that's a pretty good case for it just working regardless of form; but I find it really hard to justify an argument that like a snake would somehow be caught in manacles. Like it doesn't even matter if a snake has Manacles on, it could trivially slither out of them and a medium Snake should be a valid target. But if you'd like, pretend he turned into Velociraptor or Giant Rat or whatever instead. It changes absolutely nothing: the whole encounter plays out exactly the same.

- Mind Master wanted to get to the Druid and Invisibility lets him move without OAs. I took the optimal course of action here; he knows he needs to kill the Druid. Making a Rothé attack him...maybe? No Rothé was adjacent to him and there's no movement associated with the ability so I'm not sure if they'd be able to.

- Mind Master was 20' into the room on that turn to be able to hit any cover. He got knocked back 10' by Thunderwave. He only has 25' movement. He can't reach the Druid without Mind Mastery.

- You can't attack while occupying another creature's space. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/79814/what-happens-when-allies-occupy-the-same-space) The Hobgoblins can't attack through the Xvart Speaker. That's the whole point of chokepoints in this edition and why the Rothés can't get **** done either.

- Iron Shadow is at 8 HP and the Druid has an ~8 damage attack in hand and at over 20 HP with temporary HP (plus even advantage on the attack roll). It also can't get to the roof with the animals in there. It simply has no chance and it knows it; if it had an attack with a range of over 60' that'd be different but it does not. I could roll it if you'd want me to. 24 on hit, 10 on damage; it would die the second it appears before even getting to attack. I think it would be much more valuable for it to report to the BBEG, give him all the information he got on the PC, etc. than to die pointlessly in a fight he knows he can't win. Lawful Evil doesn't equal to Lawful Stupid; Iron Shadow is actually quite intelligent and wise.


Thanks for the scrutiny. I think there's some arguable stuff but ultimately, the outcome would remain pretty much the same. The Diviner would die more or less regardless, the Abjurer would die a bit faster or slower depending on resources, the others would survive anyways. Diviner was really the only close call. He really would benefit of a lightsource but top floor only has the brasero, which is not realistic to pick up. He could go for the Lantern I suppose, but he'd need go shut it down with Pyrotechnics anyways.

[Dork_Forge]

That's not how sight works. You see light. If light is blocked, you see nothing. Not even the thing blocking the light.

Once again, this is not irl. Darkvision allows you to see in the dark you know... the absence of light?


- I'd say all real sand, especially beach/ocean sand, is "fine sand" as such (it's chemical composition is silicondioxide and it occurs specifically on shores and seabed, as sea wears down on the surface). I could imagine old stone stairs to have plenty of sand on them to just pick up as you walk past them; then again, they might not. That's why I rolled the percentile. But that doesn't really matter, it was a failure anyways.

I have no idea why you're talking about chemical composition, the only way I can reason that is we're using two different definitions of fine. I take the component to mean fine as in small individual pieces, like you'd have in an hourglass. My experience of beaches isn't that fine sand, though I'm sure that some beaches have it. In regards to it not being on the stairs it was more about the light house not being on a beach, or sand being given in any of the description of the area.


- Bat appearing is suspicious of course but you have two drunk Xvarts; I don't imagine they could link the bat appearing to the Wizard

They were meant to react to basically anything with suspicion, and the bat certainly would notice another bat just appearing.


- Good point on the Misty Step, I agree with your point here. Didn't really matter but it's good to keep in mind.

Thanks


Well, Owl's speed is 60' and it got an action; that's 120' of movement (dash) and 120' further of sight; that should be more than enough to ascertain the inclination of the land.

And the telepathic connection has a range of 100 ft., with 5-10ft. of that taken up by being separated by the lighthouse wall. So at best it can observe less than half of the teleportation distance. That doesn't change anything I said... the Wizard can still end up teleporting into a rock, tree, the ground, or up into the air and falling enough to take damage. Teleporting blindly into the distance is only a safe idea in a flat, featureless plain you know exists out there.


- That's reasonable. I see readying a spell more as holding until the trigger happens and then casting the spell.

Okay, but that's not what readying a spell is in 5e. PHB pg. 193 "When you ready a spell, you cast it as normal but hold its energy, which you release with your reaction when the trigger occurs."

That's the entire reason why readying a spell requires concentration until it's released.


- Ward was activated; we assumed all resources available.

Okay, going with that, it still doesn't add up to 13...


- I find it REALLY hard to imagine the bottles are completely empty and it only takes "alcohol" to cast the spell.

If your interpretation is literally a drop will do, sure



- I went with what I found reasonable. FWIW I could've turned into Velociraptor/Giant Rat or whatever; it doesn't really matter since the Wildshape form doesn't do anything but drop the stuff. I just like Snakes so I went with a Snake form (plus it seems beyond obvious to me that if you go from a humanoid with big limbs to a snake whose limbs are miniscule, you'll easily fall out of manacles - you can't just look at size, you have to look at the shape of the creature too). Plus the RAW of the ability says "equipment falls off" if I so want so I think that's a pretty good case for it just working regardless of form; but I find it really hard to justify an argument that like a snake would somehow be caught in manacles. Like it doesn't even matter if a snake has Manacles on, it could trivially slither out of them. But if you'd like, pretend he turned into Velociraptor or Giant Rat or whatever instead. It changes absolutely nothing: the whole encounter plays out exactly the same.

You explicitly asked a question about Wild Shaping to get out of manacles, you received an answer. You then acted against that answer. I'm not really sure why you're making more of it than that.


- Mind Master wanted to get to the Druid and Invisibility lets him move without OAs. I took the optimal course of action here; he knows he needs to kill the Druid. Making a Rothé attack him...maybe? No Rothé was adjacent to him and there's no movement associated with the ability so I'm not sure if they'd be able to.

This ignores just making the Druid move, or even moving a rothe to get there with less/no OAs.


- Mind Master was 20' into the room on that turn to be able to hit any cover. He got knocked back 10' by Thunderwave. He only has 25' movement. He can't reach the Druid without Mind Mastery.

...So he should be using Mind Mastery? Were you running him like he had to stab the Druid or it wasn't worth it?


- You can't attack while occupying another creature's space. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/79814/what-happens-when-allies-occupy-the-same-space) The Hobgoblins can't attack through the Xvart Speaker. That's the whole point of chokepoints in this edition and why the Rothés can't get **** done either.

Whilst I can understand why some people may run it that way, it isn't RAW and the only support is a JC tweet, which is unofficial and dubious. They've been asked this question multiple times over the years (as shown on Twitter), they could have answered it in the SAC and make it official, they didn't.


- Iron Shadow is at 8 HP and the Druid has an ~8 damage attack in hand and at over 20 HP with temporary HP (plus even advantage on the attack roll). It also can't get to the roof with the animals in there. It simply has no chance and it knows it; if it had an attack with a range of over 60' that'd be different but it does not. I could roll it if you'd want me to. 24 on hit, 10 on damage; it would die the second it appears before even getting to attack. I think it would be much more valuable for it to report to the BBEG, give him all the information he got on the PC, etc. than to die pointlessly in a fight he knows he can't win. Lawful Evil doesn't equal to Lawful Stupid; Iron Shadow is actually quite intelligent and wise.

You are inserting roleplay decisions? There was no direction that any monster would flee except the bats (maybe, not sure without looking back), and the Iron Shadow has no idea the HP/THP of the Druid or the damage of a Magic Stone I don't think the Druid actually used (which you also just assumed there would be loose pebbles inside a building...?). It seems like you had the Druid climb down the lighthouse, which would have taken an entire turn dashing. The Iron Shadow could have readied an attack for when the Druid was climbing down, and attacked with a full Multiattack when the Druid was on the ground. With True Strike, Minor Illusion, and Silent Image it even has options for setting up an ambush, and 5 attacks is certainly capable of downing the Druid, with the option of Shadow Jaunting back out of range at the end of them, the Iron Shadow has a significant mobility advantage over the Druid.

Even if the Iron Shadow retreated to set up an ambush, outright fleeing doesn't make sense given the constraints and intent of the challenge.

When you consider that the Scouts shouldn't have been mauled by Rothe's (unless the Rothe spent their turns squeezing upstairs), the fight should have really been harder on the Druid, with the Scouts bringing ranged attacks that could have easily downed them.

[Gignere]

Once again, this is not irl. Darkvision allows you to see in the dark you know... the absence of light?

I’m against this mainly because it isn’t showcasing the class abilities but relying on a racial and the ruling relies on an edge case that some DMs might go against. As you can see one of my feedback on the chronurgist escape scenario was that it basically didn’t rely on any subclass abilities so any wizard could have pull it off with just DDoor and Find Familiar.

In this case what is inherent in the psi warrior that allows escape? So if you rolled up a vhuman/halfling or any race without DV your whole scenario breaks down. Does it even showcase the subclass, is the subclass even optimal, I don’t know because it hinges on a racial feature.

Edit: especially when there are measures against a tattooed holy symbol why wouldn’t there be measures against darkvision? Or is this a scenario just set up to stack the deck as high as possible against spell casting via DM fiat?

[Unoriginal]

Concerning the blindfold:

I will rule that the blindfold does not inflict the Blinded condition, but that everything except the blindfold is treated as heavily obscured until it is removed. The blindfold is thick enough to prevent the PC to see through it but not enough that the PC can't see some of th lantern's light through it.


Or is this a scenario just set up to stack the deck as high as possible against spell casting via DM fiat?

Of course, the challenge has a PC with full ressource except HPs face an action-economy-overwhelming-but-spread-out amount of enemies with decent AC and non-negligible HPs, but with mostly low saves and susceptible to being fooled by illusions, enchantments or other distractions, in a restricted space that can easily be covered by AoEs, with little in the realm of special movement...

But the deck is stacked against spell casting because enemies are smart enough to think "yeah, maybe we shouldn't let have the prisoner have any equipment or religious symbol, since we live in a world where some people can use equipment or religious symbols to melt our faces off and we don't know this person's powers."

[Dork_Forge]

I’m against this mainly because it isn’t showcasing the class abilities but relying on a racial and the ruling relies on an edge case that some DMs might go against. As you can see one of my feedback on the chronurgist escape scenario was that it basically didn’t rely on any subclass abilities so any wizard could have pull it off with just DDoor and Find Familiar.

In this case what is inherent in the psi warrior that allows escape? So if you rolled up a vhuman/halfling or any race without DV your whole scenario breaks down. Does it even showcase the subclass, is the subclass even optimal, I don’t know because it hinges on a racial feature.

Edit: especially when there are measures against a tattooed holy symbol why wouldn’t there be measures against darkvision? Or is this a scenario just set up to stack the deck as high as possible against spell casting via DM fiat?

Measures against darkvision: The blindfold is a measure against that. The ability to remove the blindfold by being able to see it, but without V,S,M is incredibly niche. There is zero reason to think it's possible.

Class/subclass features my attempt used: Second Wind, Action Surge, Protective Field, Telekinetic Movement, Psi-Powered Leap. My attempt is very much uniquely a Psi Warrior Fighter in how it was done. But your problem is that I used Darkvision... to facilitate a subclass feature?

I didn't see you complain about Telekinetic being used in other attempts, which is just a feat anyone can take. Or Lucky, or Fey Touched. All of which were more impactful during their runs than just having darkvision, a feature that on it's own is not only common, but useless in the bound situation.

So why the problem with darkvision but not feats? Especially when those feats were taken as a V. Human/Custom Lineage?

[Eldariel]

Okay, going with that, it still doesn't add up to 13...

Should've been 17. I had the character at level 5. Didn't matter, the Mind Master dealt over the character's HP total in damage.


You explicitly asked a question about Wild Shaping to get out of manacles, you received an answer. You then acted against that answer. I'm not really sure why you're making more of it than that.

I disagreed with said ruling for mentioned reasons. I went with what I felt was a reasonable ruling.


This ignores just making the Druid move, or even moving a rothe to get there with less/no OAs.

...So he should be using Mind Mastery? Were you running him like he had to stab the Druid or it wasn't worth it?

He did use Mind Mastery to hit the Druid - Druid even failed the save. Silvery Barbs turned the attack into a miss. And yeah, I absolutely think it's not worth it for the Mind Master to start fighting with the Conjured Animals since he knows the cause and has very good tools to ignore them (Reduce lets him simply walk under them and his AC isn't really bothered by it), sneak up to the PC and most likely kill them (indeed, if he didn't fail his Stealth-roll, which he was favored to succeed on, he might've done just that - I think he's the most dangerous enemy here once he gets Reduce and Invisibility up; 19 AC, untargetable with targeted spells, massive damage, etc.).


Whilst I can understand why some people may run it that way, it isn't RAW and the only support is a JC tweet, which is unofficial and dubious. They've been asked this question multiple times over the years (as shown on Twitter), they could have answered it in the SAC and make it official, they didn't.

RAW doesn't clarify this topic. Therefore it's unofficial tweet vs. nothing.


You are inserting roleplay decisions? There was no direction that any monster would flee except the bats (maybe, not sure without looking back), and the Iron Shadow has no idea the HP/THP of the Druid or the damage of a Magic Stone I don't think the Druid actually used (which you also just assumed there would be loose pebbles inside a building...?). It seems like you had the Druid climb down the lighthouse, which would have taken an entire turn dashing. The Iron Shadow could have readied an attack for when the Druid was climbing down, and attacked with a full Multiattack when the Druid was on the ground. With True Strike, Minor Illusion, and Silent Image it even has options for setting up an ambush, and 5 attacks is certainly capable of downing the Druid, with the option of Shadow Jaunting back out of range at the end of them, the Iron Shadow has a significant mobility advantage over the Druid.

Even if the Iron Shadow retreated to set up an ambush, outright fleeing doesn't make sense given the constraints and intent of the challenge.


I just fastforwarded the end since it was obviously over. The Druid just readies an action every round; he could also just Misty Step at the Iron Shadow and kill him. The Iron Shadow could try to ambush for all it matters, the readied action would kill him the second he revealed himself.


Even if the Iron Shadow retreated to set up an ambush, outright fleeing doesn't make sense given the constraints and intent of the challenge.
When you consider that the Scouts shouldn't have been mauled by Rothe's (unless the Rothe spent their turns squeezing upstairs), the fight should have really been harder on the Druid, with the Scouts bringing ranged attacks that could have easily downed them.

I said that if I can't summon both downstairs and upstairs I'd just summon upstairs and in the middle floor sending the ones from the middle floor to the lower floor. Roof was the more reasonable escape anyways. So this wouldn't change anything.

[Unoriginal]

I disagreed with said answer for mentioned reasons.


Uhm... should I point out?:


If DM just gives you a scenario and tells you "Do X", magic will be able to do a lot of things where you would have no options if you didn't have magic. If you want non-casters to succeed, you'll have to specifically design solutions for them. For casters, you can just present problems and let them solve it. That's a fundamental difference in power right there: catered vs generic challenges.

[Eldariel]

Uhm... should I point out?:

What does a ruling have to do with catering or not catering? Not that it matters, I just find the ruling that you couldn't slip out with anything but smaller form illogical. But like I said, you can substitute another form and it changes literally nothing so it shouldn't be a hill worth dying on. Far as I'm concerned, it's a trivial matter in the scope of all this.

EDIT: For reference:
https://www.amnh.org/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/snake-limb-bud/555372-1-eng-US/snake-limb-bud_full_610.jpg
I would argue those could fit to retract out of manacles made for a medium creature. In general, I don't think you can make a general size-based ruing for this but instead you'll have to rule it on an individual creature basis depending on the body type and proportions of the source and target creature.

[Waazraath]

Because all of these conversations occur under a massive caster supremacy bias.


Just dropping by to give a +1 to this and compliment Dr.Samurai and DorkForge on their patience. Skipped this thread for a while, sorry to see it devolved past days in the same boring 'casters are uber' litany of tediousnes.

[Unoriginal]

What does a ruling have to do with catering or not catering?

You claimed that a DM could just present a situation and a goal and have the caster do it, while the DM needed to design solutions for martials to succeed.

Yet here you as the DM had to design a solution for the caster.



But like I said, you can substitute another form and it changes literally nothing so it shouldn't be a hill worth dying on. Far as I'm concerned, it's a trivial matter in the scope of all this.

Well, you mentioned you could have gone for Giant Rat (AC 12 HPs 7) or Velociraptor (AC 13 HPs 10), which are easier to hit and to KO than the Giant Poisonous Snake (if only slightly for the raptor), so it can very much have an impact.

Not to mention, size itself can be a factor. Re-reading the Shepherd Druid attempt, I see you had both the Xvarts try to sling the Giant Snake, which leaves them far away for when the Druid repositions the next turn, while the NPC Behavior section indicates: " If the PC manages to break loose and attempts to go away, both Xvart attempt to get to them and shove them to the ground, and if the PC gets on the ground attack them there (unless the PC has become too big for shoving, in which case they just attack the PC, likely with their slings)."

[Eldariel]

You claimed that a DM could just present a situation and a goal and have the caster do it, while the DM needed to design solutions for martials to succeed.

Yet here you as the DM had to design a solution for the caster.

I "designed a solution" by assuming that snake legs can fit out of manacles? Are you serious? If we substitute a Velociraptor, everything else plays out the exact same with those rolls.


Not to mention, size itself can be a factor. Re-reading the Shepherd Druid attempt, I see you had both the Xvarts try to sling the Giant Snake, which leaves them far away for when the Druid repositions the next turn, while the NPC Behavior section indicates: " If the PC manages to break loose and attempts to go away, both Xvart attempt to get to them and shove them to the ground, and if the PC gets on the ground attack them there (unless the PC has become too big for shoving, in which case they just attack the PC, likely with their slings)."

Sorry, I must've missed that. But it just doesn't matter. Their attacks were bad enough that they would miss/fail regardless, and prone or not doesn't remove enough movement to really make a difference. I even forgot to give them their drunken disadvantage but they still managed to miss any of the mentioned ACs here (I posed the rolls, they got a grand total of 11 and 5). Same poisoned disadvantage would mean the first one would shove at disadvantage (or ready shove) and the second one normally. I simply made the choice that felt the most logical: meleeing a dangerous melee monster feels really dumb when you have slings and the space to stay out of its reach. Of course they could move in; as said, it wouldn't change a thing. Moving in to club someone down seems reasonable when they're a nearly unconscious humanoid, albeit a powerful one, less so when they're an unharmed dangerous beast.

[Unoriginal]

I "designed a solution" by assuming that snake legs can fit out of manacles? Are you serious? If we substitute a Velociraptor, everything else plays out the exact same with those rolls.



Sorry, I must've missed that. But it just doesn't matter. Their attacks were bad enough that they would miss/fail regardless, and prone or not doesn't remove enough movement to really make a difference. I even forgot to give them their drunken disadvantage but they still managed to miss any of the mentioned ACs here (I posed the rolls, they got a grand total of 11 and 5). Same poisoned disadvantage would mean the first one would shove at disadvantage (or ready shove) and the second one normally. I simply made the choice that felt the most logical: meleeing a dangerous melee monster feels really dumb when you have slings and the space to stay out of its reach. Of course they could move in; as said, it wouldn't change a thing. Moving in to club someone down seems reasonable when they're a nearly unconscious humanoid, albeit a powerful one, less so when they're an unharmed dangerous beast.

Xvarts have advantage when trying to shove when an ally is near, which is why I included them using that tactic.

Having to get up and avoid two OAs make a significant difference.

[Eldariel]

Xvarts have advantage when trying to shove when an ally is near, which is why I included them using that tactic.

Having to get up and avoid two OAs make a significant difference.

They have disadvantage from poisoned and advantage from ally and a total of -1 Str with no proficiency: those cancel out and they simply roll at 1d20-1. But the first one to move will have to either ready the action or not have advantage since their ally has yet to move. It's an ability check. And getting up almost does nothing. It just costs half your movement, but it's not like you need much of it on that turn anyways. OAs...well, they'll do that when you're standing and to your full HP animal form so it's just the same as them attacking on your turn.

The highest value they can get is by attacking on their turn and hoping to get OAs or do some damage - but that seems less reasonable than just slinging it out from apparent safety while calling for help when melee is obviously extremely risky. Shoving is a fine option for when you have allies that can benefit of the advantage nearby (the Mind Master would love it as would the Hobgoblins) but that's true only when the alarm is sounded and the others have moved up. R1 shove seems strictly worse than R1 attacks.

FWIW I rolled OAs for them assuming they went for clubbing. And assuming the Shepherd had turned into Velociraptor instead. The rolls were 16/1 (+4) and 19/13 (+4) for 8 (1d6+2) damage, which ultimately didn't make a difference: the Velociraptor's HP is lost anyways when shifting back to humanoid form so it's essentially a free buffer. Therefore, in this run no matter their behaviour, it wouldn't have changed a thing.

EDIT: Did the math, they're 13,6% to land two+ hits on the Velociraptor on 4 attacks at disadvantage (assuming you give them the OAs). If they roll two hits, they're 58,3% to roll 11+ damage (10 would actually be ideal since that would spare the bonus action to shift back allowing Totem already on this round but that's of course risky) meaning the total probability of dying to those 4 attacks is 7,9%. Meaning it's possible but it's under 1 in 10 runs, which I think is an acceptable risk in an otherwise extremely brutal and dangerous run. In any other case their actions have no impact on you due to the disposable Wild Shape HP. If they instead Shove, they have under 1% chance of having an impact on the game.

[Dork_Forge]

I disagreed with said ruling for mentioned reasons. I went with what I felt was a reasonable ruling.

Which defeats the point of participating in a challenge where someone else sets the parameters and makes rulings, you just pick and choose which you want to follow.


He did use Mind Mastery to hit the Druid - Druid even failed the save. Silvery Barbs turned the attack into a miss. And yeah, I absolutely think it's not worth it for the Mind Master to start fighting with the Conjured Animals since he knows the cause and has very good tools to ignore them (Reduce lets him simply walk under them and his AC isn't really bothered by it), sneak up to the PC and most likely kill them (indeed, if he didn't fail his Stealth-roll, which he was favored to succeed on, he might've done just that - I think he's the most dangerous enemy here once he gets Reduce and Invisibility up; 19 AC, untargetable with targeted spells, massive damage, etc.).

So, you don't think it's worth it for the Mind Master to get into it with animals and spend two turns doing buffs because of that.

...But the Iron Shadow spends two turns fighting animals on the roof?


RAW doesn't clarify this topic. Therefore it's unofficial tweet vs. nothing.

So table difference.


I just fastforwarded the end since it was obviously over. The Druid just readies an action every round; he could also just Misty Step at the Iron Shadow and kill him. The Iron Shadow could try to ambush for all it matters, the readied action would kill him the second he revealed himself.

You're just... assuming that the Druid automatically hits then, and the Druid can't really ready an action to throw a stone whilst climbing down the tower... And this entire 'ready to throw' thing is only a factor because the Iron Shadow fled to begin with. Oh, and you still didn't address just handwaving that there are loose pebbles for the spell inside a building.


I said that if I can't summon both downstairs and upstairs I'd just summon upstairs and in the middle floor sending the ones from the middle floor to the lower floor. Roof was the more reasonable escape anyways. So this wouldn't change anything.

But you didn't address that you can't reasonably summon more than one animal on a separate floor (there's just no way you have the line of sight for that), or the ramifications of having to flood the second floor and move them. Like not having the speed to get where they want and attack. Opportunity Attacks from having to put some near Xvarts etc.


I "designed a solution" by assuming that snake legs can fit out of manacles? Are you serious? If we substitute a Velociraptor, everything else plays out the exact same with those rolls.

You didn't know the rolls when you consciously made the choice to ignore the ruling of the challenge setter to choose a more durable form.


Sorry, I must've missed that. But it just doesn't matter. Their attacks were bad enough that they would miss/fail regardless, and prone or not doesn't remove enough movement to really make a difference. I even forgot to give them their drunken disadvantage but they still managed to miss any of the mentioned ACs here (I posed the rolls, they got a grand total of 11 and 5). Same poisoned disadvantage would mean the first one would shove at disadvantage (or ready shove) and the second one normally. I simply made the choice that felt the most logical: meleeing a dangerous melee monster feels really dumb when you have slings and the space to stay out of its reach. Of course they could move in; as said, it wouldn't change a thing. Moving in to club someone down seems reasonable when they're a nearly unconscious humanoid, albeit a powerful one, less so when they're an unharmed dangerous beast.

Proning means potentially not being able to get to your ideal summoning spot.

You're also acting like it's the same thing to shove as attack... it isn't, it's a contested roll so the Druid has the potential of fumbling.

You also keep trying to argue it makes more sense for them to stay at range... but that just gives the known dangerous creature space to do whatever they want, whilst expressly going against how the challenge dictates they should act.



An aside inspired by the protesting of Darkvision, I'd be curious to see casters attempt this that don't leverage Lucky or Silvery Barbs. Since the first has literally nothing to do with being a caster (I literally used it on the Fighter) and the latter is a clearly OP spell from a setting book. It'd be interesting to see, since your strategy seems to be to leverage these tools as defenses.

[Witty Username]

You can pick the build, but you go with the DM you have, not the one you wish you had or expect to have in the future.

[Eldariel]

Which defeats the point of participating in a challenge where someone else sets the parameters and makes rulings, you just pick and choose which you want to follow.

How terrible. Can we at least agree that it had no impact on the outcome?


So, you don't think it's worth it for the Mind Master to get into it with animals and spend two turns doing buffs because of that.

...But the Iron Shadow spends two turns fighting animals on the roof?

One can walk through enemy squares, doesn't provoke OAs, has very high AC to avoid animal attacks, and can sneak up on the PC. Meanwhile, Iron Shadow is actively ****ed indoors due to the lightning conditions preventing the use of Shadow Jaunt and indeed, they can't even get through the Rothés since you can't walk through enemy squares normally. Iron Shadow is forced to fight with how tight the squares are.


You're just... assuming that the Druid automatically hits then, and the Druid can't really ready an action to throw a stone whilst climbing down the tower... And this entire 'ready to throw' thing is only a factor because the Iron Shadow fled to begin with. Oh, and you still didn't address just handwaving that there are loose pebbles for the spell inside a building.

There are literally Xvarts with slings in the same floor you start. I'm pretty sure you can get some sling bullets to use Magic Stone on. And I fastforwarded it because I ran out of time. Basically though, I made the roll for the Druid and if he ever got to attack, the Iron Shadow is dead so I just didn't have him do something retarded.


But you didn't address that you can't reasonably summon more than one animal on a separate floor (there's just no way you have the line of sight for that), or the ramifications of having to flood the second floor and move them. Like not having the speed to get where they want and attack. Opportunity Attacks from having to put some near Xvarts etc.

*shrug* Maybe. It depends on the size of the entrance, your range of vision from there and so on. I don't really find it convincing.


You didn't know the rolls when you consciously made the choice to ignore the ruling of the challenge setter to choose a more durable form.

True. I went with what I felt was a reasonable ruling and closer to RAW over what I felt was an unreasonable one and not linked to RAW.


An aside inspired by the protesting of Darkvision, I'd be curious to see casters attempt this that don't leverage Lucky or Silvery Barbs. Since the first has literally nothing to do with being a caster (I literally used it on the Fighter) and the latter is a clearly OP spell from a setting book. It'd be interesting to see, since your strategy seems to be to leverage these tools as defenses.

Moon Druid run might just do that when I get around to it.


If I were to design some Wizard that could be good here, Bladesinger seems like it could potentially be very strong. Though you'd most likely still want Lucky as a cushion against natural 20s and the like as always when you go for high AC. It's just a very strong defense feat. But if you got up to like 25 AC (16 Dex, 18 Int, Mage Armor and Shield + Bladesong would do it and that only really takes 1 round to set up if you first manage to kill the Xvarts) you'd be pretty well off. Especially if you also got to cast False Life. You'd even have a good excuse to Shadow Blade it up thereafter (that's a lot of stuff to cast to be fair; it's gonna be rough to get that many turns without taking an unacceptable amount of attacks). Though I guess you can't easily take Lucky if you go for 18 Int since you need a half-feat and +4 in two stats total. CLineage or Vuman with a +2 would work.

[Dr.Samurai]

For what it's worth, I don't think you applied disadvantage to the Xvart's initiative from the poisoned condition?
D'oh!

Good call. That would more than likely have resulted in the fighter going first. The only thing this would change is that Xvart 2 might have missed on that first attack since the fighter would be standing and no longer blinded, and the Poisoned condition would apply Disadvantage.

However, the fighter would still die when he died because the Mind Master hits for 15 damage, which is exactly how much HP the fighter had after Second Wind. So even if no one hit the fighter for the first three rounds, the Mind Master takes him out with one hit.

The Mind Master is just a doozy.

What made you go with the Fighter build that you chose?
Simplicity. There's very few options to take. It's a very vanilla build. I also think it shows how much the dice play into it. You can see at one point the hobgoblin on the stair would have ended the fight if his single attack hit, but he instead missed. It's interesting to see that even when you're at your lowest efficiency, the dice still have a say. If the fighter could have taken down that hob and the hob below (both a possibility with a single attack on each), then he has some room to fight the Mind Master. Switch out to a longsword, Grab+Prone would give the Mind Master DA to attack you, but you still have to roll against that move ability.

Odds are against you, but still anything is possible.

Just dropping by to give a +1 to this and compliment Dr.Samurai and DorkForge on their patience. Skipped this thread for a while, sorry to see it devolved past days in the same boring 'casters are uber' litany of tediousnes.
I'll take it :smallcool:.

I do think a lot of this just comes down to how different people will adjudicate events. As an example, I tend to agree with Eldariel that attacking is probably better for the xvart's than Shoving. However, they have that feature for a reason, and it makes sense that their instinct would be to knock you down. Maybe mathematically it doesn't make sense, but then maybe that makes sense too because they're drunk. I can only just shrug and feel that either decision can make sense, but go with what the DM stated.

That's why I push that a lot of this is how the game is run. My plan was to shove the hobgoblin at the top of the stairs down, and he'd hit the Speaker and the other hob and they'd fall prone and maybe take some damage. But... is that how any DM would adjudicate that? I don't know. Would the Mind Master use Reduce and Hide or simply attack with the dagger? I don't know, that's a DM call. In this case, a medium fighter can move at full speed while grabbing a tiny foe. So Fighter could grab the reduced Mind Master, dash up the stairs, and let him go over the edge of the roof. Are all DMs going to adjudicate that the same way? Once the fighter has killed two xvarts and a hobgoblin, as mine had, but is still on the second floor, does the Iron Shadow stay put, or does he enter the tower? Unoriginal said the Iron Shadow trusts his allies, but with three of them dead, it seems they're not doing so well. In my notes, I had the Mind Master and the Hobgoblin 2 call for back up (scouts and Iron Shadow respectively). Initiative was on my side, but I would think that makes sense given that the fighter has downed four opponents (2 xvarts, speaker, hob).

All of these encounters hinge on these types of decisions. Some will be clearer than others, as in my complaints about the youtube video. But others, like in Unoriginal's, I think there is room for different takes, and we have to accept the judgements.


Next attempt will be with a dwarf berserker. I plan on using Dwarven Fortitude. Honestly, I can't really see a barbarian being able to do this without some way to heal themselves. But if they do have the hit points, I can see barbarians being pretty potent. Otherwise, 1hp just won't cut it.

[Unoriginal]

Next attempt will be with a dwarf berserker. I plan on using Dwarven Fortitude. Honestly, I can't really see a barbarian being able to do this without some way to heal themselves. But if they do have the hit points, I can see barbarians being pretty potent. Otherwise, 1hp just won't cut it.

Beast Barbarian would be pretty damn great for that challenge. I hadn't thought of Dwarven Fortitude, but that would work well with the Beast features.

[Willowhelm]

I've got to admit. I don't see what the purpose of the tower test is. It seems to wildly favour casters (even with all the restrictions) and be near impossible for martials?

I may have totally missed some aspect but:

Warlock
Pact of the chain.
Any race.
Any stats.
Any spells but include Dimension Door
Any invocations but include Voice of the Chain Master


Plans in no particular order. Chose whichever feels right for you.
Plan A:
Use invisible imp familiar to scout max DD distance teleportation spot.
Use familiar to look around the tower from a safe distance (120ft dark vision) and general scout your situation.
Familiar has a readied action to remove your gag when summoned
Dismiss them, summon them in gag-removal range.
Familiar removes gag.
DD out to pre-scouted safe place.


Plan B:
Tell your entire party the situation and just wait for backup.



Plan C:

Use ludic's ever living generalist (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25029862&postcount=1095) build. Wreck shop.
Give yourself 48hp before starting anything
Have the familiar bring in any equipment/components you need. Restrictions on weight obviously.
Have the familiar free a hand instead of gag for their readied action.
Do whatever you like, with the DD as the escape-in-emergency option.




I've had a couple of threads in the past for builds where you have no equipment or seem utterly "normal". They're full of ideas for how to be, essentially, fully capable in an all-your-stuff-is-gone prison situation.

To make this less "cheeseable" you really need to railroad the PC into having to fight their way out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Dork_Forge]

I've got to admit. I don't see what the purpose of the tower test is. It seems to wildly favour casters (even with all the restrictions) and be near impossible for martials?

I may have totally missed some aspect but:

Warlock
Pact of the chain.
Any race.
Any stats.
Any spells but include Dimension Door
Any invocations but include Voice of the Chain Master


Plans in no particular order. Chose whichever feels right for you.
Plan A:
Use invisible imp familiar to scout max DD distance teleportation spot.
Use familiar to look around the tower from a safe distance (120ft dark vision) and general scout your situation.
Familiar has a readied action to remove your gag when summoned
Dismiss them, summon them in gag-removal range.
Familiar removes gag.
DD out to pre-scouted safe place.


Plan B:
Tell your entire party the situation and just wait for backup.



Plan C:

Use ludic's ever living generalist (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25029862&postcount=1095) build. Wreck shop.
Give yourself 48hp before starting anything
Have the familiar bring in any equipment/components you need. Restrictions on weight obviously.
Have the familiar free a hand instead of gag for their readied action.
Do whatever you like, with the DD as the escape-in-emergency option.




I've had a couple of threads in the past for builds where you have no equipment or seem utterly "normal". They're full of ideas for how to be, essentially, fully capable in an all-your-stuff-is-gone prison situation.

To make this less "cheeseable" you really need to railroad the PC into having to fight their way out. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't think it favours casters overall, mainly because how harsh it can be without any materials/foci/holy symbols, Dimension Door is the real standout and without what you describein plan A, it can easily lead to accidental, 4th level suicide.

On your plans:

Plan A runs into the issue of knowing that you're in a tower by an exterior wall with no character knowledge to support that.

Plan B runs into the 60 minute timelimit

Plan C hinges on Healing Light having no visible aspect to it, which it doesn't say... but it's called Healing Light

[Willowhelm]

I don't think it favours casters overall, mainly because how harsh it can be without any materials/foci/holy symbols, Dimension Door is the real standout and without what you describein plan A, it can easily lead to accidental, 4th level suicide.

On your plans:

Plan A runs into the issue of knowing that you're in a tower by an exterior wall with no character knowledge to support that.

Plan B runs into the 60 minute timelimit

Plan C hinges on Healing Light having no visible aspect to it, which it doesn't say... but it's called Healing Light

Uh. Plan A has an unlimited range communication with your familiar via voice of the chain so you absolutely can discover that? I wasn’t summoning them outside the tower. I was assuming they were alive (because they are) somewhere ”nearby” (within a few thousand feet) out there and I can communicate with them…

It doesn’t require you to be near an exterior wall. I didn’t even think you were, quite the opposite… I thought we were on an open platform exposed to the elements. Shows how good my reading skills are.

Plan B Didn’t know there was a 60 min time limit but sure, if the rest of the party can’t get to you in 60 mins I guess it doesn’t work.

Plan C doesn’t hinge on that. It’s just an option to gets things started with a nice buffer instead of 12 hp per round as a bonus action.

I absolutely cannot see how this doesn’t favour casters. They have the options to escape the manacles. They have the options to bypass all the fighting. They have the options to regain health. They have the options to summon weapons etc… They can at best trivialise the encounter and at worst make a go at it. I don’t see any martials in this thread… but if you somehow break free with no thieves tools (so by sheer strength?) you then have alert guards and a fight, with wasted action economy getting free. A monk could leap off the tower just fine but… seriously… where are the martial builds that do well here?

[diplomancer]

I absolutely cannot see how this doesn’t favour casters. They have the options to escape the manacles. They have the options to bypass all the fighting. They have the options to regain health. They have the options to summon weapons etc… They can at best trivialise the encounter and at worst make a go at it. I don’t see any martials in this thread… but if you somehow break free with no thieves tools (so by sheer strength?) you then have alert guards and a fight, with wasted action economy getting free. A monk could leap off the tower just fine but… seriously… where are the martial builds that do well here?

The very first build to succeed the challenge, provided by Darkforge, was a Psi Warrior Fighter.

[Eldariel]

Just one point I don't get: how does the Chronurgy Wizard know they can summon their Familiar outside of the building, before they know they're in a building (as opposed to a room underground, underwater or the like)?

Oh, I missed this: he would summon it in the room behind him the game anyways since his plan is to escape and there's a higher chance of escaping. If there's nothing there, it's of course unlucky. I dunno how that would work anyways. Maybe do nothing or maybe kill the familiar?

[Willowhelm]

The very first build to succeed the challenge, provided by Darkforge, was a Psi Warrior Fighter.

Can you link the the post? It’s a long thread and I must’ve missed it.

[animorte]

The very first build to succeed the challenge, provided by Darkforge, was a Psi Warrior Fighter.
And I was hoping to see more of that style! Creative non-casters doing some work!

Maybe an example from each class would be pretty cool. Of course that's a request for additional work that I, myself, don't even have much time to contribute.

[diplomancer]

Yeah agree with this, the reflection would be a Battle Master dumping Second Wind, Action Surge, and every Superiority Die every encounter, unrealistic and outcome warping.



Challenge Results!

Race: Tabaxi
Class: Fighter (7)
Subclass: Psi Warrior
ASIs: Dex +2 and Lucky
Skills: Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Perception, Athletics

Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 10 Cha 8

Unarmored AC: 14

First I used Telekinetic Movement to slide the blindfold up and Second Wind (roll 7, new current 15 HP). As neither of these things are really obvious, I didn't trigger initiative at this point.

Initiative was rolled now, as it would be the first escape attempt:

Tabaxi: 23
Bat: 14
Drunk Xvarts: 11

Round 1:

Tabaxi: Attempt to escape 1 was a 16, Lucky rerolled into a 5, complete failure
Bat: moves to harass and tell Xvarts about my shenanigans
Xvarts: make action-free Perception to notice if I made any progress. One gets a 3 the other gets a 17 against all odds, spends his turn putting the blindfold back on then returning to his place

Round 2:

Tabaxi: Attempt 2 is a 22 Success! Now free object interaction to remove blindfold, Action Surge to Dash and Feline Agility to double speed. I rounded up to 40 ft. to be conservative. Bonus action Psi Powered Leap and fly remaining 80 ft. off the roof (landing on floor).

Scouts and Duergar enter initiative at 5 and 9 respectively.

Xvarts: Follow to roof and fire with slings (17 and 11) one hits for 3 damage.
Mind Master: lacking a ranged attack, they start descending the lighthouse to raise the alarm.
Scout: the MM doesn't have darkvision and the Tabaxi is far enough away from the lighthouse that it wouldn't help and no light was described away from the building, so each makes two attacks with disadvantage. (18, 11, 7, 7) one hit for 10 damage!

Tabaxi uses reaction Protective Field, reducing it by 10 and negating all damage.

Tabaxi: Action Dash Bonus Action Psi Powered Leap, flies another 120ft. into the darkness

I called it a success here, as there is no realistic chance of pursuit, only the scouts have the range to attack, but at disadvantage and against Protective field with 12HP left.

A clunky start, but a quick success!

This could have been harder if the Duergar got an attack of opportunity, but TBH a single attack with the option of reduction isn't going to change the outcome.

You could do this with a Shadow Monk with Telekinetic. Invisible Mage Hand lower the blindfold, Shadow Step out of the restraints to the staircase, run and jump off the lighthouse (slow falling for no damage) and just running away. A dragon monk could have AOE'd the guards whilst still bound and flown away etc.

A soulknife would have been easy to get out of the restraints and strong to fight, but has no clean way of healing themselves up and having an unarmored AC.

I'm curious how a caster would do in this situation, I'm guessing not well overall, but we'll see.


Can you link the the post? It’s a long thread and I must’ve missed it.

There you go.

[Dork_Forge]

Next attempt will be with a dwarf berserker. I plan on using Dwarven Fortitude. Honestly, I can't really see a barbarian being able to do this without some way to heal themselves. But if they do have the hit points, I can see barbarians being pretty potent. Otherwise, 1hp just won't cut it.


Beast Barbarian would be pretty damn great for that challenge. I hadn't thought of Dwarven Fortitude, but that would work well with the Beast features.

Dwarven Fortitude on a Barbarian is a great shout, considering the implications now...


Uh. Plan A has an unlimited range communication with your familiar via voice of the chain so you absolutely can discover that? I wasn’t summoning them outside the tower. I was assuming they were alive (because they are) somewhere ”nearby” (within a few thousand feet) out there and I can communicate with them…

It doesn’t require you to be near an exterior wall. I didn’t even think you were, quite the opposite… I thought we were on an open platform exposed to the elements. Shows how good my reading skills are.

Plan B Didn’t know there was a 60 min time limit but sure, if the rest of the party can’t get to you in 60 mins I guess it doesn’t work.

Plan C doesn’t hinge on that. It’s just an option to gets things started with a nice buffer instead of 12 hp per round as a bonus action.

Overall I'm not sure you're aware of enough of the contraints, for example Plan A runs afoul of a living familiar being with the party far away from you. Here's the full challenge for reference:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25714835&postcount=138


I absolutely cannot see how this doesn’t favour casters. They have the options to escape the manacles. They have the options to bypass all the fighting. They have the options to regain health. They have the options to summon weapons etc… They can at best trivialise the encounter and at worst make a go at it. I don’t see any martials in this thread… but if you somehow break free with no thieves tools (so by sheer strength?) you then have alert guards and a fight, with wasted action economy getting free. A monk could leap off the tower just fine but… seriously… where are the martial builds that do well here?

As Diplomancer mentioned and then quoted, I was the first to tackle (and succeed) the challenge, and I used a full martial build for it. I also included some initial thoughts on doing the same thing with other martials.


The very first build to succeed the challenge, provided by Darkforge, was a Psi Warrior Fighter.


There you go.

Thanks for the mention and quote!


And I was hoping to see more of that style! Creative non-casters doing some work!

Maybe an example from each class would be pretty cool. Of course that's a request for additional work that I, myself, don't even have much time to contribute.

I wouldn't really want to do the fullcaster ones, but doing the martial ones sound like fun, I'll probably run through at least one or two more of them.

[Chaos Jackal]

As Diplomancer mentioned and then quoted, I was the first to tackle (and succeed) the challenge, and I used a full martial build for it. I also included some initial thoughts on doing the same thing with other martials.

Could've missed it, but I think you still haven't addressed the fact that the Iron Shadow can get you, which is incidentally a much bigger issue than the nitpicking and grasping at straws you've been doing for Eldariel's runs.

[Unoriginal]

You still haven't addressed the fact that the Iron Shadow can get you

It has been addressed.

On top of what has been said, the Psi Warrior can also just Psi-Powered Leap down the cliff and into the sea, once they're on top floor, and none of the foes can keep up with them then (so long as they have enough psionic juice to protect themselves from lucky arrows, which they had in the run).



which is incidentally a much bigger issue than the nitpicking and grasping at straws you've been doing for Eldariel's runs.

Right, because caster-based runs are allowedto outright ignore and change the set parameters of the challenge, but Nine Hells forbid a martial-based run to... *check notes* acknowledge that an opponent does not have the action economy to move fast enough and damage the PC enough during the time they have at their disposal to stop the escape, and explain that in a different post when it's brought up.

[Eldariel]

@Unoriginal: If Hobgoblins hear the Xvarts yelling something and something that could be constituted as clubbing (or attempts at thereof at any rate), do they wait for the translation from the Speaker or do they go investigate immediately? Also, what's the trigger for Iron Shadow going to the roof; does he have to know that fighting is taking place or is it enough for him to hear fighting in the top stairwell?

[Dr.Samurai]

@Unoriginal: If Hobgoblins hear the Xvarts yelling something and something that could be constituted as clubbing, do they wait for the translation from the Speaker or do they go investigate immediately? Also, what's the trigger for Iron Shadow going to the roof; does he have to know that fighting is taking place or is it enough for him to hear fighting in the top stairwell?
Not sure on Speaker, but I took the challenge to say that the Iron Shadow will do one of two things depending on what is imparted to it: if it is told the PC is heading to the roof, it will cast Expeditious Retreat and climb the wall to the roof.

If it is told the PC is fighting their way down to the first floor, it will simply cast the illusion to mask the door and then use Stealth. On following turns, it readies an action to attack the PC if they come through the door.

Obviously Unoriginal can confirm or clarify all of that.

On my brief run, the hobgoblin at the bottom of the stairs alerted the Iron Shadow that the 2 xvarts were dead and one of the hobgoblins as well. So I would have had the Iron Shadow come through on its next turn. But I'm not sure if that's appropriate or not. I think the way Unoriginal is playing is that with the door locked and hidden, the Iron Shadow doesn't feel the need to enter the tower if the PC is trying to escape that way; it's literally guarding the way out. But if it heads to the roof, then that's less secure and it will go up there immediately to stop the PC.

[Eldariel]

Not sure on Speaker, but I took the challenge to say that the Iron Shadow will do one of two things depending on what is imparted to it: if it is told the PC is heading to the roof, it will cast Expeditious Retreat and climb the wall to the roof.

If it is told the PC is fighting their way down to the first floor, it will simply cast the illusion to mask the door and then use Stealth. On following turns, it readies an action to attack the PC if they come through the door.

Obviously Unoriginal can confirm or clarify all of that.

On my brief run, the hobgoblin at the bottom of the stairs alerted the Iron Shadow that the 2 xvarts were dead and one of the hobgoblins as well. So I would have had the Iron Shadow come through on its next turn. But I'm not sure if that's appropriate or not. I think the way Unoriginal is playing is that with the door locked and hidden, the Iron Shadow doesn't feel the need to enter the tower if the PC is trying to escape that way; it's literally guarding the way out. But if it heads to the roof, then that's less secure and it will go up there immediately to stop the PC.

Yeah, my issue is that I'm playing the Moon Druid run which means Conjure Animals is involved again. And that means there's a lot of stuff at or near the roof but not necessarily the PC (then again, only the Mind Master can check whether the PC is there, since the PC has turned into Velociraptor and the summons happened to come up Velociraptors too) upstairs. Trying to manage all the PC stuff while also maintaining the information every NPC and monster has contains a lot of moving parts: it's easier to focus on just one side of the veil. So I think the key question is, does the Iron Shadow move up to help hearing any fighting from the roof? That was my take and that's how I played the Shepherd run. OTOH it's perfectly reasonable for the Iron Shadow to just wait for information on the PC themself and leave cleaning up a bunch of potential summons to the minions.

On an unrelated note, I think someone should roll a few Sorcs and Bards and see how they work. I have a feeling Sorcs should be extremely good due to Subtle Spell (and potentially Aberrant Mind psionic spells), while Bards could try skilling out of this (so could Rogues but their lot is pretty rough due to having no class-based resources to burn, though they at least get to innately double Dash so if they have e.g. racial flight or a speed burst like Tabaxi, they can put up distance pretty quickly if they get out of the Manacles). I think some Cleric might be good too but without their Holy Symbol, most of their stuff doesn't work.

[Unoriginal]

@Unoriginal: If Hobgoblins hear the Xvarts yelling something and something that could be constituted as clubbing (or attempts at thereof at any rate), do they wait for the translation from the Speaker or do they go investigate immediately? Also, what's the trigger for Iron Shadow going to the roof; does he have to know that fighting is taking place or is it enough for him to hear fighting in the top stairwell?

The hobgoblins wait for the translation, unless they hear sounds making them deduce someone or something died upstairs, which make them check things out immediately.

The Iron Shadow goes to the top floor if warned the prisoner or an intruder is going there or if there is indicators the PC (or something that could be mistaken for the PC or an ally of the PC) are trying to do it.

The Iron Shadow wouldn't be able to hear fighting in the bottom half of the top stairwell.


Not sure on Speaker, but I took the challenge to say that the Iron Shadow will do one of two things depending on what is imparted to it: if it is told the PC is heading to the roof, it will cast Expeditious Retreat and climb the wall to the roof.

If it is told the PC is fighting their way down to the first floor, it will simply cast the illusion to mask the door and then use Stealth. On following turns, it readies an action to attack the PC if they come through the door.

Obviously Unoriginal can confirm or clarify all of that.

On my brief run, the hobgoblin at the bottom of the stairs alerted the Iron Shadow that the 2 xvarts were dead and one of the hobgoblins as well. So I would have had the Iron Shadow come through on its next turn. But I'm not sure if that's appropriate or not. I think the way Unoriginal is playing is that with the door locked and hidden, the Iron Shadow doesn't feel the need to enter the tower if the PC is trying to escape that way; it's literally guarding the way out. But if it heads to the roof, then that's less secure and it will go up there immediately to stop the PC.

The Iron Shadow wouldn't open the front door unless if compelled to do so with magic or similar. They know opening it is just asking for the prisoner to slip away.

The only reason they don't immediately go to the roof via climbing when they realize something is up is because they think there is a pretty big chance the door won't be able to hold the PC and so it needs guarding, but if it seems the PC is going up the Iron Shadow considers the PC may have means to escape by the top of the lighthouse and go put an end to that the best they can.

[Dork_Forge]

Could've missed it, but I think you still haven't addressed the fact that the Iron Shadow can get you, which is incidentally a much bigger issue than the nitpicking and grasping at straws you've been doing for Eldariel's runs.

Unoriginal already pointed out that I did, in fact, address this very shortly after I posted my run. For reference here it is:


They can keep up if they double dash, but... that's all they can do as both would have a speed of 120 ft. They could use their darts, but that would open up the gap and be at disadvantage since dart only have a 20ft. normal range.

And that's assuming a flat plain, the Psi Warrior is flying, so could land on hills/trees etc. that may be anywhere in the several hundred feet around this lighthouse.

If they were able to get hits off, unlikely at disadvantage with a +5 vs a 14 but possible, then max damage is 7 and the Tabaxi has plenty of dice left to reduce the damage

The run ended with the Psi Warrior having 12 HP and four Psionic Energy Dice left (not counting the BA regen). The Iron Shadow would need to hit at least 3 attacks with disadvantage, and then roll above average damage for the last two to down the Psi Warrior. Possible? Technically, sure. Likely? No, not at all. And like Unoriginal pointed out, flying to the sea doesn't even allow Iron Shadow the chance of trying to keep up and attack.

As for what you call 'grasping at straws,' if someone holds such a blatant caster supremacy bias, why shouldn't they be held accountable to the challenge that they willingly entered? Why shouldn't everyone be held accountable? Afterall, I ran through this first an Unorginal pointed things out to me that I addressed.

Though, in my case I didn't blatantly ignore guidance and rulings given for my own betterment, and frankly my run had less things to address overall. Or is Misty Stepping without line of sight grasping at straws? Dimension Dooring blindly in the darkness? Or the Druid run which ignored Wild Shape guidance, got the layout of the map wrong, assumes you can see at least 8 squares of space from looking up a narrow staircase, and had enemies fleeing or blowing entire turns not doing what they were prescribed to do?

[strangebloke]

As for what you call 'grasping at straws,' if someone holds such a blatant caster supremacy bias, why shouldn't they be held accountable to the challenge that they willingly entered? Why shouldn't everyone be held accountable? Afterall, I ran through this first an Unorginal pointed things out to me that I addressed.

Though, in my case I didn't blatantly ignore guidance and rulings given for my own betterment, and frankly my run had less things to address overall. Or is Misty Stepping without line of sight grasping at straws? Dimension Dooring blindly in the darkness? Or the Druid run which ignored Wild Shape guidance, got the layout of the map wrong, assumes you can see at least 8 squares of space from looking up a narrow staircase, and had enemies fleeing or blowing entire turns not doing what they were prescribed to do?

Dude, I'm not saying a psi warrior can't escape, but the double standards being applied here are pretty obvious. You complain about Eldariel's RP logic for the shadow, but you relied on RP logic to justify the Xvarts not doing anything to a prisoner who's obviously demonstrating the capability and will to escape. The psi warrior is struggling and got the blindfold off, shouldn't they just club him back into sweet sweet unconsciousness? Instead they completely ignore this and the failed attempt has no impact, meaning that apparently anyone with a non-negative str mod just gets out of the manacles eventually regardless.

The guidance that the form needs to 'fall out' of the manacles in order to escape would seem to imply that the snake works fine, so I don't think Eldariel was that unreasonable there even if he wasn't shifting size categories.

Blind Dimension door is risky, sure. If you're underground for example you'll just go unconscious again and lose the slot. But so is spending action surge + fly + tabaxi speed to blunder off up the stairs without any information of your surroundings. The net effect is similar. A lot of times you'll just get stuck behind a door or trapped in a dead end, get knocked unconscious, and be back at square one with few resources. Why does the psi warrior go upstairs instead of down?

Again, not saying the run is illegitimate, just that there are reasonable critiques that are at least as valid as the issues mentioned with Eldariel's run. And as with Eldariel's run, some of these issues don't actually matter if you rework how the run was done / get a little luckier / etc.

---

Overall, can't speak for Eldariel, but the argument regarding caster supremacy is NOT
"every caster can do everything that every martial can do"
but RATHER
"Casters are MORE LIKELY to have an efficient solution, noncasters OFTEN will have NO SOLUTION AT ALL."

The first position was true in 3x, I don't think anyone claims its true in 5e. The second, though, i'll maintain as generally true, even if in a situation like this challenge some martials can succeed and many casters can't. I'm pretty sure most clerics just die here for example. But by that same token a lot of martials just die here too.

[Waazraath]

Or is Misty Stepping without line of sight grasping at straws? Dimension Dooring blindly in the darkness? Or the Druid run which ignored Wild Shape guidance, got the layout of the map wrong, assumes you can see at least 8 squares of space from looking up a narrow staircase, and had enemies fleeing or blowing entire turns not doing what they were prescribed to do?

Oh come on man, that's magic! Don't be too critical, leave that for the 'mundanes' cause we just know they can't do cool stuff!

[diplomancer]

Unoriginal already pointed out that I did, in fact, address this very shortly after I posted my run. For reference here it is:



The run ended with the Psi Warrior having 12 HP and four Psionic Energy Dice left (not counting the BA regen). The Iron Shadow would need to hit at least 3 attacks with disadvantage, and then roll above average damage for the last two to down the Psi Warrior. Possible? Technically, sure. Likely? No, not at all. And like Unoriginal pointed out, flying to the sea doesn't even allow Iron Shadow the chance of trying to keep up and attack.

As for what you call 'grasping at straws,' if someone holds such a blatant caster supremacy bias, why shouldn't they be held accountable to the challenge that they willingly entered? Why shouldn't everyone be held accountable? Afterall, I ran through this first an Unorginal pointed things out to me that I addressed.

Though, in my case I didn't blatantly ignore guidance and rulings given for my own betterment, and frankly my run had less things to address overall. Or is Misty Stepping without line of sight grasping at straws? Dimension Dooring blindly in the darkness? Or the Druid run which ignored Wild Shape guidance, got the layout of the map wrong, assumes you can see at least 8 squares of space from looking up a narrow staircase, and had enemies fleeing or blowing entire turns not doing what they were prescribed to do?

Though I still prefer casters in general, one thing that this thread has made clear to me is that those who argue for "caster supremacy" tend to play with rulings that really favor casters, like being able to ready an action and only cast the spell later. This is stricly against the RAW. One other example mentioned many times was casting rituals while moving. While definitely allowed by RAW, I have still to meet a DM who let casters spam rituals like that.

[Dork_Forge]

Dude, I'm not saying a psi warrior can't escape, but the double standards being applied here are pretty obvious. You complain about Eldariel's RP logic for the shadow, but you relied on RP logic to justify the Xvarts not doing anything to a prisoner who's obviously demonstrating the capability and will to escape. The psi warrior is struggling and got the blindfold off, shouldn't they just club him back into sweet sweet unconsciousness? Instead they completely ignore this and the failed attempt has no impact, meaning that apparently anyone with a non-negative str mod just gets out of the manacles eventually regardless.

Just going to put a reminder here that I completed my run before 'what the monsters do' was a section in the challenge post, but considering the current HP, damage reduction, and the poisoned condition, it doesn't impact anything. Key thing here is I didn't go against guidance that was provided.


The guidance that the form needs to 'fall out' of the manacles in order to escape would seem to imply that the snake works fine, so I don't think Eldariel was that unreasonable there even if he wasn't shifting size categories.

The guidance was unambiguous:

"I would rule that you can slip out of manacles if you become smaller, however the manacles stay on if your new form is the same size as the one they locked the manacles on, and you simply cannot become bigger."

Eladriel has stated multiple times that they knowingly went against that. It's not about whether or not it's an unreasonable thing to rule in general, it's that it went against guidance when he was even the one to ask the question.

Why is that important? Because Eladriel's stance was that the DM/table doesn't matter, as highlighted by Unorginal a bit upthread.


Blind Dimension door is risky, sure. If you're underground for example you'll just go unconscious again and lose the slot. But so is spending action surge + fly + tabaxi speed to blunder off up the stairs without any information of your surroundings. The net effect is similar. A lot of times you'll just get stuck behind a door or trapped in a dead end, get knocked unconscious, and be back at square one with few resources. Why does the psi warrior go upstairs instead of down?

A character that has a climb speed and the ability to fly went up instead of down because it was more likely to lead to windows or roof access. With the sheer amount of movement speed available on that turn, the Psi Warrior has a lot of leeway to explore the building.

Not really the same as blind teleporting with 1 HP imo, had the caster had more HP to reasonably survive a failed 'port, it wouldn't matter.


Again, not saying the run is illegitimate, just that there are reasonable critiques that are at least as valid as the issues mentioned with Eldariel's run. And as with Eldariel's run, some of these issues don't actually matter if you rework how the run was done / get a little luckier / etc.


I get what you're saying, I just disagree that making overt mistakes (MS into the dark, layout of the map wrong) and deliberate choices against challenge parameters is the same thing.



Overall, can't speak for Eldariel, but the argument regarding caster supremacy is NOT
"every caster can do everything that every martial can do"
but RATHER
"Casters are MORE LIKELY to have an efficient solution, noncasters OFTEN will have NO SOLUTION AT ALL."

The first position was true in 3x, I don't think anyone claims its true in 5e. The second, though, i'll maintain as generally true, even if in a situation like this challenge some martials can succeed and many casters can't. I'm pretty sure most clerics just die here for example. But by that same token a lot of martials just die here too.

Strangebloke, honestly how does the position normally come across? Especially when the person has said, multiple times, that there's no point having a martial (power wise) in a 5E game, and that no matter what the DM/table/situation, a caster party is better off than a martial party.

Your position is nuanced from the offset, but at the same time I wasn't going back and forth with your position.

For what it's worth I think most casters die here, since for casters it's not only a narrow selection of subclasses, but also a very narrow selection of spells.


Oh come on man, that's magic! Don't be too critical, leave that for the 'mundanes' cause we just know they can't do cool stuff!

lollll


Though I still prefer casters in general, one thing that this thread has made clear to me is that those who argue for "caster supremacy" tend to play with rulings that really favor casters, like being able to ready an action and only cast the spell later. This is stricly against the RAW. One other example mentioned many times was casting rituals while moving. While definitely allowed by RAW, I have still to meet a DM who let casters spam rituals like that.

I've observed the same thing, along with some assumptions that don't really make sense to me. Like the notion of putting a campaign dependent thing in front of a party that can't do it, like needing Plane Shift in BG: DiA, that's just not how games are run, either by WotC or any homebrew I've ever seen.