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SangoProduction
2023-02-09, 05:44 AM
Preamble: I just dipped off the face of the world for a while. Not to fear. I was just handling the literally criminally insane, including a couple serial murderers. I can tell my life will be a long and fulfilling one. Oh, and I was making progress on my EU4 Anbennar submod. And then my computer shut off. And convincing myself to redo all that work (which is basically already done) is a bit difficult.

What's being adapted, and why? Well, Telekinesis sphere in PF sucks. It sucks so much that it's almost depressing, because telekinesis is such an intrinsically cool ability. Heck, there's an entire animated series with a cult following that focuses on elementally-limited telekinesis. Avatar or something another. I think it has blue aliens.
So, I'm going to adapt the Base sphere and bring the abilities in with some standard spell stat blocks, and implement the augment system.... and see where we go from there.
Honestly, I don't know how much more of a change is needed than basically just the base sphere.
With the base sphere fixed, it's suddenly kind of all right, by my prediction. But let's... hop right on into this anyway.

Post Notes: Have to say. I've had a real tough time staying focused and on target. This one very much did not feel like a one-to-one adaptation. I was simultaneously bored and overwhelmed. It's so strange. (I think the admission that a singular change fixes almost everything makes the committing to more changes feel like a lot of meaningless work.)
I think the end product is probably pretty good.

I did just straight up delete all but one of the gravity talents, as neither the 5e nor PF versions are even worthy of a utility talent placement. I just could not be bothered with attempting to make them decent.

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Mechanics Update Note: Let's add "Spell Attack" to common usage. It's an attack (ranged or melee) which uses the casting ability modifier, instead of the normal dex or str.

I will only use "Spell Attack," when the Pathfinder version is also basically "Spell Attack," but spelled out each time. After all, mages don't need to have even less stat pressure.

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The Telekinesis sphere as presented:

Telekinesis size: Tiny. Increase by 1 size category every 3 caster levels. (Small at level 3, Medium level 6, Large at level 9, and so on.)
Some telekinesis abilities target a creature or object up to your telekinesis size. Additionally, every such telekinesis ability can use the following Augment:

Augment 1 sp: Your telekinesis size increases by 2 sizes.
Honestly, if you take nothing else from this adaptation, this would probably solve 90% of all problems with telekinesis sphere. (And no, that's not a claim that I solve the other 10% with the rest.)
Make of that what you will. I would appreciate if you continued reading though. It feeds my ego.

Generally, one-handed weapons or pieces of ammunition are two sizes smaller than the creature it was designed for, while armor, tower shields, and two-handed weapons are one size smaller. If you gain the ability to affect multiple targets at once, two creatures or objects of a similar size count as one size larger (2 small objects equals a medium, 2 mediums equal a large, etc.)

Creatures or objects made of lighter materials, mostly open space, or reduced to 1/2 weight with the Lighten talent of the Enhancement sphere count as being one size category smaller, while weightless creatures or objects count as being 2 size categories smaller for this purpose.

Levitate
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft + 5 feet per 2 caster levels)
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
Target: 1 willing creature or unattended object that you can see
Cost: 0 sp

You can telekinetically move a willing creature or an unattended object up to your telekinesis size within range. Targets you are levitating cannot move on their own, and once each round, you can gently move them in a straight line up to 20 feet + 5 feet per 5 caster levels (its telekinesis speed) in any direction, including up. The target levitates as long as you concentrate, have line of effect, and the target remains within close range.

If you use telekinesis to lift something into the air and drop on a target, utilize the rules found in the Creation sphere.
This ability is limited by telekinesis size.

Your telekinesis is simple and cannot perform dexterous actions (tying a knot, opening a book, turning a key, etc.). Any object you control with telekinesis has a touch AC of 10 + your casting ability modifier + any size modifier, and a CMD of 10 + your caster level + your casting ability modifier + the object’s size modifier. If ever a Strength check is required (such as a creature trying to battle you for control of an item), you may use your casting ability modifier as your Strength modifier for that purpose. If another target attempts to Levitate something you are already affecting with Levitate, they must overcome your MSD first, or the attempt fails.

Augment 1 sp: You can lift an unwilling creature with levitate. The target is allowed a will save to negate this effect. An affected creature makes another will save at the end of each of its turns. On a successful save, the effect ends for it, but not necessarily other targets if augmented by the Mass (metasphere) talent. A creature may suffer falling damage if they successfully save while floating high in the air.

Augment 1: Immediately use Bludgeon without expending an additional action. Only usable on the first turn that you levitate the target.

Augment 2 sp: This effect lasts for its remaining duration. This augment may be applied without any action required on your turn. Levitated targets will remain either suspended or moving in the direction that's specified when cast for the duration.
Again, PF has it so most "lasts for concentration's duration" only costs 1 SP. 5e costs 2. I don't have play testers. Sphere casters tend to have plenty, and I think this is more intended to act as a level gate.

Bludgeon
Action: 1 Standard Action
Cost: 0 sp
You can, not-so-gently, move an object or creature you are levitating the remainder of its telekinesis speed to strike a target within its reach. If this movement would cause the object to no longer be a valid target for Levitate (such as going behind a wall, out of range, or into an anti-magic field), it completes the movement and Bludgeon attack before the Levitate fails.

This is considered a ranged attack and can benefit from feats or combat talents related to weapon and ranged attacks, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity except as provoked by the casting of the telekinesis itself.
When you use a Bludgeon to strike a target, you must succeed at a ranged spell attack roll against the target.

On a successful hit, the target and the Bludgeon take damage depending on the Bludgeon’s size. If the Bludgeon is a weapon, the attack deals appropriate damage for that weapon (bolts and arrows are treated as daggers for this purpose). Since weapons are designed to deal damage, they do not suffer damage themselves if used as a Bludgeon. Objects beyond Colossal are still treated as Colossal for calculating damage.

Pathfinder's version has you maintaining telekinetic control of the object. 5e is basically to shoot out the object. Functionally, I much prefer Pathfinder's version. It is the niche of being more sure that your super special consumable actually lands, eventually.
Also. I didn't bother putting in the actual damage per size of the non-weapon object / creature. It's just so insignificant, regardless of which version you use. Just pick one and use that chart.

Catch
Casting Time: 1 move action
Range: Close (25 ft + 5 feet per 2 caster levels)
Duration: instantaneous
Target: 1 projectile or thrown object that you can see
Cost: 0 sp

Until the start of your next turn, you can target a thrown weapon or launched projectile such as an arrow from a bow, to stop the attack from dealing damage. Make a ranged spell attack contested by the attacker’s attack roll; If you succeed, the attack is negated, and the object drops toe the ground.

The target must be within your Telekinesis sphere size limit.

Augment 0 sp: You may use a standard action instead of a move action. In doing so, you may immediately levitate an object you catch without expending additional actions.

Augment 1 sp: You may reduce the casting time to 1 immediate action.

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Dancing Weapon (bludgeon)
You may add your casting ability modifier to all damage rolls with a Bludgeon. Additionally, your Bludgeons may count as either a ranged, thrown, or melee weapon under your control, as chosen, by the caster once per round. You may apply appropriate feats and combat talents such as Power Attack to your actions with that Bludgeon, and if treating an object as a melee weapon, the Bludgeon has a reach and threatens the area around it as if wielded by a creature of the same size as the Bludgeon.

Alternative to the normal use of Bludgeon, you may make an attack action with a levitated weapon as though you were wielding it. Using the Mass (metasphere) talent does not grant additional such actions.

Homing (bludgeon, catch)
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Target: 1 creature or object that you can see
Cost: 1 sp
Duration: 1 minute or until successful attack

When you or an ally misses with a ranged weapon attack, a thrown weapon, or a telekinetic bludgeon, you can make the projectile home back in on the target. The projectile single-mindedly moves towards the target without you needing to concentrate on it, taking the shortest path as it attempts to attack them each turn. A projectile directed this way can only make one attack per turn, and once it makes a single successful attack it stops pursuing the target and drops to the ground.

Augment 1 sp: (requires Mass (metasphere)) You can make multiple objects pursue a target, but as soon as any one of them makes a successful attack, they all stop pursuing.

Homing (bludgeon, catch)
See Bludgeon talents.

Parry (catch)
You can use catch to block attacks with melee weapons, though the wielder retains its hold on their weapon even if you successfully block their attack. However, if you also possess the Steal talent, you can immediately apply it to a parried manufactured weapon, having it either drop, or be levitated, as though it were a normal projectile.
Your catch must be specially tuned towards the task, so if you ready an action to cast catch, you must specify whether you are attempting to intercept melee or ranged attacks.

Augment 1 sp: You don't have to specify which attacks you wish to intercept.

Return (catch)
Augment 0 sp: When you stop an attack with catch, you can immediately fling it back at the attacker if they’re in range. Resolve this attack as if it were a Bludgeon, using the object you were attacked with. Doing so does not interfere with concentrating on other effects.

Augment 0 sp: When you miss with a ranged weapon attack, a thrown weapon, or a telekinetic projectile, you can make the projectile return back to you as an immediate action. You can automatically catch it when it returns without spending an action.

Telekinetic Maneuver (catch)
Augment 1 sp: You can target any moving creature or object within your size limit, not just projectiles and thrown objects. If the target is unwilling, they may make a will save. On a failure, they stop moving, and are either moved 10 feet + 5 feet per 3 levels in any direction without provoking attacks of opportunity, or fall prone. This movement can be used to reset the effective fall distance to be where they were caught from.
I hate combat maneuvers in Pathfinder. They are just so jank, and the scaling is really off. So I made it closer to 5e. It's not really bad and has a unique take to maneuvers. And so... it definitely has a place. You could keep the original PF version if so desired. It's not bad... Outside of the intrinsic nature of maneuvers, and by not allowing any other modifications to your maneuver checks, which makes it next to impossible.

Greater Catch (catch)
Augment 2 sp:Until the start of your next turn, you can attempt to catch an additional 2 + 1 per 4 caster levels targets.

Augment 1 sp: Instead of targeting projectiles directly with a Catch, you can create a kinetic field—a stationary, flat surface to catch all projectiles and thrown objects passing through it until the beginning of your next turn. Any object that strikes the field immediately loses momentum and drops to the ground if the originator of the attack fails a will save. This field fills an area with a radius of up to 10 feet + 5 feet per five caster levels.
You may concentrate to sustain a kinetic field for up to 10 minutes per caster level, and may move the field with you as you move. This can be combined with Telekinetic Maneuver to affect targets that attempt to move through it until the beginning of their next turn (at which point they can try again).


Finesse (levitate, utility)
You may use telekinesis to perform fine manipulations, such as turning a key in a lock, unrolling a scroll, or tying a knot. You may attempt appropriate skill checks at a distance (such as Craft, Disable Device, Profession, or Performance checks that involve objects or instruments, but not Sleight of Hand or other checks involving attended objects unless you possess the Steal talent), as well as Heal checks to perform first aid. When performing a skill at a distance you may use your casting ability modifier in place of the normal ability modifier, but you also suffer disadvantage on the check.

When augmenting levitate to be maintained without concentration, you can use levitate to maintain complicated, non-combat procedures such as having cutlery prepare dinner, make a lute play itself, or making a shovel dig a ditch.
Disadvantage may be rolling twice and taking lowest, or -2 to the check, DM's choice.

Orbit (levitate)
When you levitate a creature or object and move it into your space (or immediately after catching an object targeting you), you can place it in a passive orbit around you. An object in orbit drifts slowly around you, moving with you when you move as if you carried it, and does not require concentration to remain in orbit, though it does nothing except drift passively. At any point you can begin concentrating on it again to move it with levitate. You can have multiple objects around you at one time so long as their total size does not exceed your telekinesis maximum. If you possess the Dancing Weapon talent, you count anything in your orbit as levitating for the purposes of that talent.
If you augment your telekinesis size for the purpose of this talent, it lasts for 10 minutes per caster level.

If the total size of the objects in your orbit is equal or greater than your size and are not being used with Dancing Weapon, you can grant yourself half cover (granting a +2 bonus to AC and reflex saves as usual) until the start of your next turn as a swift action.

Telekinetic Crush (levitate)
Augment 0: Every round you maintain concentration you may deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage to targets you levitate plus an additional 1d6 per 5 caster levels.
Augment 0: Objects used as bludgeons take double damage from being used as a bludgeon.

Steal (levitate)
You can use levitate on attended objects. The attending creature gets a will save to negate this effect. You may also use levitate to perform Sleight of Hand checks at a distance, using your casting ability modifier in place of your dexterity modifier for this purpose, though you suffer disadvantage on the check. On either successful use, the object(s) may be moved up to your telekinesis speed away, as normal.
Disadvantage may be rolling twice and taking lowest, or -2 to the check, DM's choice.


Acceleration (speed)
When you move a target with levitate you can double the distance you can move it that turn by having all of its movement be in a straight line. An object that moves at least 10 feet this way before being used as a Bludgeon is counted as having made a charge and gains the related +2 on its attack roll. If you also possess the Dancing Weapon talent, you may apply charge-related feats and combat talents to your charge with that Bludgeon.

Fly (speed)
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: close (25 ft + 5 ft / 2 caster levels)
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes / caster level
Target: 1 creature that you can see
Cost: 1 sp

The target gains a fly speed with perfect maneuverability of up to your telekinesis speed.

Augment 2 sp: This effect lasts for its remaining duration without concentration. This augment may be applied without any action required on your turn.

Greater Speed (speed)
Your telekinesis speed increases to 30 feet + 5 feet per 2 caster levels per round.


Dampening Field
When using a creature or object as a Bludgeon, you may choose for the object itself to not suffer damage from being used as a Bludgeon.

When lifting an object with your telekinesis, you may have it reduce all damage it takes by half, and cause it to take no penalties from the broken condition. When lifting a creature with your levitate, you may grant it DR/piercing equal to 1/2 your caster level.

Kinetic Sense
You no longer need line of sight to use telekinesis on an object or creature, as long as you target the correct space the target is in. If you target an incorrect square your action is wasted, though you retain any spell points you would have spent.

In addition, you may spend a spell point to gain 30 feet blindsense for one minute per caster level.
Yes. I know that second "paragraph" goes against the standardization of effect stat blocks... but it's literally 1 sentence to explain the entire thing.

Manifest Force (utility)
Your telekinetic energy can mimic simple tools, such as shovels, hammers, or scissors by using your telekinesis as if manipulating an item of the appropriate size. If you possess the Finesse talent, you may mimic tools associated with any of the listed skills, allowing you to Perform without an instrument or pick a lock without thieves tools.

You may also attack your enemies with pure telekinetic force. You may make Bludgeon attacks without an object, dealing force damage as a Bludgeon of a size up to your telekinesis size limit. If you possess the Dancing Weapon talent, you may treat this Bludgeon attack as if it was made with a weapon you have proficiency with, sized up to your telekinesis size limit.

Pantomime Cage
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: close (25 ft + 5 ft / 2 caster levels)
Duration: 1 round per caster level
Target: 1 creature or object that you can see
Cost: 1 sp
Trap the target in a box made of telekinetic force. On a failed Reflex save, the target becomes trapped for 1 round per caster level, effectively sealing the target off from all other creatures. The target treats all other creatures as though they had total cover against it, and all other creatures treat the target as though it has total cover against them. They may only move via interdimensional travel, such as the Warp sphere, though they remain trapped at their new location.

A trapped target may attempt a Reflex saving throw or Escape Artist check as a full-round action with a DC equal to this effect’s DC to escape and end this effect. If the target takes damage while trapped, they may attempt a check to escape as a free action which can be taken even if it is not their turn.

Tether
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Target: 2 creatures or objects that you can see
Cost: 0 sp
Duration: 1 minute

You can create a telekinetic connection between two creatures or objects of any size so long as at least one is within your telekinesis size, tethering them together. The targets must be within 30 feet of each other; the tether prevents them from moving further than 30 feet from each other without either breaking the tether or dragging the other target with them. An unwilling creature may make a reflex save to avoid being tethered.

A creature dragging an object follows the normal carrying capacity and encumbrance rules, but must use the drag combat maneuver to drag an unwilling creature. The tether may be broken as a move action with a Strength check equal to the tether’s save DC

Augment 1 sp: The duration increases to 1 hour.

Whirlwind Assembly (utility)
You gain the following Telekinesis sphere abilities:

Call to Hand
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: close (25 ft + 5 ft / 2 caster levels)
Target: 1 unattended object that you can see
Cost: 0 sp
Duration: Instantaneous

You can call a single object up to your telekinesis size that is either unattended or carried by (but not secured to) a willing creature that you can see within range instantly to your hand. This may also be used to reload a weapon with a reload time of a standard action or less.

Telekinetic Swap
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: close (25 ft + 5 ft / 2 caster levels)
Target: self
Cost: 0 sp
Duration: Instantaneous

You can use your telekinesis to ready yourself for any given situation. You can draw up to two sheathed weapons or items you are carrying (even if it is stored in a backpack or similar container) and put away up to two objects you are holding in your hands. In addition, you can don a single set of armor or robes and put away any robes or armor you are currently wearing, or swap out any number of smaller worn items (such as gloves, hats, or rings). Each individual item equipped or put away must be up to your telekinesis size.

Segev
2023-02-09, 12:30 PM
When you say you find Telekinesis in this edition to be lackluster (I'm paraphrasing), do you mean the core spell, or do you mean the PF1 Sphere Telekinesis? I don't know th e PF1 Spheres very well, but it seems to me that if you're back-adapting 5e Spheres to 3.5 or PF1, it'd usually be better to start with the PF1 Spheres, wouldn't it?

Of course, if it's the PF1 Sphere you have a problem with, I can more easily see throwing that out and starting with the 5e ideas.

SangoProduction
2023-02-09, 12:43 PM
When you say you find Telekinesis in this edition to be lackluster (I'm paraphrasing), do you mean the core spell, or do you mean the PF1 Sphere Telekinesis? I don't know th e PF1 Spheres very well, but it seems to me that if you're back-adapting 5e Spheres to 3.5 or PF1, it'd usually be better to start with the PF1 Spheres, wouldn't it?

Of course, if it's the PF1 Sphere you have a problem with, I can more easily see throwing that out and starting with the 5e ideas.

I do mean the Spheres, not the vancian spell.

And there's are a few reason I'm backporting the 5e version (and meshing it with the pf version where possible). First off: Most of the 5e design is unironically good. (Check my reviews if you're interested in the particulars.)

The biggest thing about the Telekinesis sphere is the size scaling that it has is logarithmic, and starts out stupid small. Diminutive to be exact. The smallest size possible. The sphere, at base, isn't even able to lift a freaking dagger or arrow. You are lucky to lift a spoon.

Now, Creation sphere (among the best spheres, imo) also has that same "logarithmic" size scaling, in that it takes progressively more levels to create the next size category of object, but is different in 2 ways. First it starts at small. Not diminutive. And second, the actual size category matters a lot less than the "amount of stuff" which is measured in small-objects per level, which is a functional and linear scaling.

Telekinesis relies entirely on its size category.

Also a lot of the talents and abilities aren't... fantastic. Like Catch. Which, in standard PF, is a standard action to attempt to block a single ranged weapon attack (which are definitely not the most threatening of attacks, generally - alchemists say otherwise), giving them a will save.
It could use a bit of love to touch up and make into a neat option.

Segev
2023-02-09, 12:46 PM
Ah, so you are drawing on 5e's Sphere as inspiration to beef up and improve PF1's Sphere. Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure you hadn't - somehow (I am not sure how, but the possibility existed) - missed that PF1 had a Telekinesis Sphere.

Given the problems you describe with it, yeah, I see wanting to replace it.

I should note that 5e Telekinesis Sphere starts at Tiny only because that is the smallest size. But it does augment up pretty nicely even at low level. And, basing it on size categories that match the actual sizes of creatures means that the square cube law doesn't get in the way of "suitably dramatic" uses of the ability. People are awful at guessing how heavy very big things are. Having the size of thing you can lift/move be the controlling thing bypasses the tendency of writers to make too-small numbers for weights handled to achieve the fantasy.

SangoProduction
2023-02-09, 01:00 PM
Ah, so you are drawing on 5e's Sphere as inspiration to beef up and improve PF1's Sphere. Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure you hadn't - somehow (I am not sure how, but the possibility existed) - missed that PF1 had a Telekinesis Sphere.

Given the problems you describe with it, yeah, I see wanting to replace it.

I should note that 5e Telekinesis Sphere starts at Tiny only because that is the smallest size. But it does augment up pretty nicely even at low level. And, basing it on size categories that match the actual sizes of creatures means that the square cube law doesn't get in the way of "suitably dramatic" uses of the ability. People are awful at guessing how heavy very big things are. Having the size of thing you can lift/move be the controlling thing bypasses the tendency of writers to make too-small numbers for weights handled to achieve the fantasy.

I clarified my point of contention. Thank you for noting that for me.
And yeah. That deal with tiny was really strange. Found it out when reviewing 5e's Creation sphere, when someone recommended using an alter effect on a bag of copper coins to make them grow large enough to block movement.

Regardless, I do think that starting out with tiny, and having the augment to get to medium, is a generally acceptable place. Because most things you face will be around medium sized at level 1. And it feels like being able to "put more effort in" is appropriate for lifting things with your mind.