Changing Improved Divine Smite to weapon dice; What happens?

[Oramac]

Just a thought experiment I'm tossing around. Say that instead of a flat +1d8 radiant, Imp Divine Smite granted an additional die of weapon damage. How would that affect the curve?

Obviously, bigger die weapons would be much better than smaller ones (greataxe vs shortsword, for instance). But what else? Does it matter at all outside of weapon choice? Is it a buff/nerf?

IDK. Just idle thoughts this morning.

[RogueJK]

Much like Brutal Critical or Savage Attacks, it would disincentivize Greatswords and Mauls, with them only getting +1d6 instead of +1d8. It would also disincentivize PAM, with the BA attack getting only +1d4 instead of +1d8.

As a result, you'd see a lot more Greataxe-wielding Paladins running around. But at best, you'd be looking at a +2 to average damage on a hit. (1d8 is 4.5 average; 1d12 is 6.5 average.)

Overall, I think it would be a slight nerf. On-demand resourceless radiant damage is handy when dealing with certain enemies who either have radiant vulnerability or whose special abilities shut off when they take radiant damage, like some undead. And +1d8 is only slightly worse damage than adding a weapon dice in the best of cases (1d10/1d12).

[KorvinStarmast]

Overall, I think it would be a slight nerf. . Having smited someone with a dagger before, hard agree.

For the OP/Oramac: this is one of those "it isn't broken, so let's not try to fix it" deals from where I sit. :smallcool:

I just realized that your user name is Camaro, spelled backwards. Do you drive one? :smallcool:

[Mastikator]

Great axes would be pretty sick getting a +1d12 on every hit.

I think PAM would be fine actually. Getting 2d10s on the two primary hits and then 1d4 on the third is on average the same as 3d8.

Longswords would be unaffected.

[RogueJK]

Come to think of it, it could even further incentivize Greataxes with the Great Weapon fighting style, depending on the new wording... GWF allows you to reroll 1s and 2s on weapon dice. So while you can't use GWF to reroll the +1d8 radiant dice, you could potentially reroll the +1d12 weapon dice, just as you can on a critical hit.



I think PAM would be fine actually. Getting 2d10s on the two primary hits and then 1d4 on the third is on average the same as 3d8.

Until one or both of your standard Attacks miss, and then it's inferior. The flat guaranteed +1d8 is better than the potential for an average equal to +1d8 if the dice cooperate.

[Oramac]

Thanks everyone! Quick follow up, I guess. How would it change if I decided to play a Dual Wielding Dex paladin? Not optimized, I know, but just for the sake of completion. It would effectively turn a shortsword into a greatsword. Does that change anything?



I just realized that your user name is Camaro, spelled backwards. Do you drive one? :smallcool:

Good catch!! You're one of very few people who have made that connection. Indeed I do drive one. Not so much now during the winter, but as a summer driver yes.

[RogueJK]

Nope. Even ignoring the benefits of radiant vs. slashing damage, 1d6+1d8 (8 average, 14 max) is strictly mathematically better than 1d6+1d6 (7 average, 12 max).

[Oramac]

Nope. Even ignoring the benefits of radiant vs. slashing damage, 1d6+1d8 (8 average, 14 max) is strictly mathematically better than 1d6+1d6 (7 average, 12 max).

Ok, cool. So overall, outside of the greataxe it would be, at best, neutral. But probably a nerf.

I guess like Korvin said, if it ain't broke...

[Mastikator]

Until one or both of your standard Attacks miss, and then it's inferior. The flat guaranteed +1d8 is better than the potential for an average equal to +1d8 if the dice cooperate.

Huh? The same is true for Improved Divine Smite


Whenever you hit a creature with a melee weapon, the creature takes an extra 1d8 radiant damage.

You miss with a melee weapon attack with your level 11 paladin = no damage.

[RogueJK]

Huh? The same is true for Improved Divine Smite
You miss with a melee weapon attack with your level 11 paladin = no damage.

My point is
*Miss*
*Miss*
BA PAM Hit for 1d4+1d8 (7)

or even

*Miss*
Hit for 1d10+1d8 (10)
BA PAM Hit for 1d4+1d8 (7)
(Total 17)

Is superior to

*Miss*
*Miss*
BA PAM Hit for 1d4+1d4 (5)

or even

*Miss*
Hit for 1d10+1d10 (11)
BA PAM Hit for 1d4+1d4 (5)
(Total 16)


You posited that it was a wash because the bonus damage averages out to the same amount either way (3d8=13.5, and 2d10+1d4=13.5), but this equal bonus damage is only true if all three attacks hit.

[Snails]

A big part of the point of the ability is to make is to make Paladins especially capable against devils/demons and undead. While one might argue that an always on radiant damage boost overshoots that theme, tying this to weapon die is both fussy and undershoots. Why would this change be better? It is not actually simpler.

I can imagine why an ability about Da Big Hit! like Brutal Critical might have incentives to choose certain big weapons over others. But when it comes to Paladin I am drawing a blank on why I would want this. If we are going to make the buff feel as generic as possible, why doesn't the Fighter get this, too? Or the Barbarian?

[JNAProductions]

My point is
*Miss*
*Miss*
BA PAM Hit for 1d4+1d8 (7)

or even

*Miss*
Hit for 1d10+1d8 (10)
BA PAM Hit for 1d4+1d8 (7)
(Total 17)

Is superior to

*Miss*
*Miss*
BA PAM Hit for 1d4+1d4 (5)

or even

*Miss*
Hit for 1d10+1d10 (11)
BA PAM Hit for 1d4+1d4 (5)
(Total 16)


You posited that it was a wash because the bonus damage averages out to the same amount either way (3d8=13.5, and 2d10+1d4=13.5), but this equal bonus damage is only true if all three attacks hit.

If you have a 35% chance of missing, a 60% chance of hitting, and a 5% chance of critting, you do .6*(Weapon+Smite+Mods)+.05((Weapon+Smite)*2+Mods) on each attack.

With a maxed Strength, 15 damage on a d10 hit, 25 on a d10 crit, 12 on a d4 hit, and 19 on a d4 crit.
With the suggested changes, that's changed to 16, 27, 10, and 15.

Plugging those into the formula, and you get 10.25 damage per regular attack, 8.15 per d4 attack.
With the changes, you get 10.95 damage per regular attack, 6.75 per d4 attack.

With two regular attacks and one d4 attack, you get...
10.25*2+8.15=28.65 DPR

With changes, you get...
10.95*2+6.75=28.65 DPR

Yes, you deal less damage in a round where you miss with a regular attack and hit with the BA attack. But you do MORE damage in a round where one miss is the BA attack.

[Mastikator]

My point is
*Miss*
*Miss*
BA PAM Hit for 1d4+1d8 (7)

or even

*Miss*
Hit for 1d10+1d8 (10)
BA PAM Hit for 1d4+1d8 (7)
(Total 17)

Is superior to

*Miss*
*Miss*
BA PAM Hit for 1d4+1d4 (5)

or even

*Miss*
Hit for 1d10+1d10 (11)
BA PAM Hit for 1d4+1d4 (5)
(Total 16)


You posited that it was a wash because the bonus damage averages out to the same amount either way (3d8=13.5, and 2d10+1d4=13.5), but this equal bonus damage is only true if all three attacks hit.

But the likelihood of hitting with each hit is the same, so... it's all a wash.

[Melil12]

Thanks everyone! Quick follow up, I guess. How would it change if I decided to play a Dual Wielding Dex paladin? Not optimized, I know, but just for the sake of completion. It would effectively turn a shortsword into a greatsword. Does that change anything?




Good catch!! You're one of very few people who have made that connection. Indeed I do drive one. Not so much now during the winter, but as a summer driver yes.


I ran a TWF Str Paladin for a CoS game and he did pretty well. It works on paladins because of the extra chance to smite. With vengeance you basically can pick a target and crit fish. Even better with dex and elven accuracy. Note by default paladins don’t have options for the TWF style … but most GMs approve it.

[Leon]

Not a lot for the average player