Smite Dice Reborn

[PhoenixPhyre]

Changes to the 5e paladin class. Goal is to keep single-classed paladins the same (or slight benefit) while making it much less of an obvious multiclass opportunity. No more "take 2 levels and the rest in sorcerer to smite better than a paladin! while being almost exactly the same as a full caster!"

Paladins are not traditional spellcasters any more. No spell slots. Instead, they get the following mechanism alongside Divine Smite (which has changed):

1. Change Divine Smite to read (instead of the paragraphs about burning spell slots to fuel it):

"You gain Smite Dice based on your paladin level as shown on the Smite Dice column of the Paladin table. When you hit with a weapon attack, you can expend one or more dice (up to your maximum as shown on the Paladin table) to add extra radiant damage. Roll 1d8 for each Smite Die expended. You recover your expended dice when you finish a long rest."

2. Change Spellcasting to read something like
You can expend smite dice to cast spells off of the Paladin list[1]. The number of dice required is equal to the spell level +1 and is subject to the same cap as Divine Smite per action.

3. (optional) Find Steed/Find Greater Steed are class features, possibly as a choice between them or something else.

4. (optional) Now you can give paladins features like "regain some lost smite dice when you X" or other interactions with smite dice without messing up multiclassing.


[1] which would be reduced in size since now they know all the spells instead of preparing them.

Numbers:


Level
Smite Dice
Cap


1
--
--


2
4
2


3
6
2


4
6
2


5
14
3


6
14
3


7
17
3


8
17
3


9
25
4


10
25
4


11
29
4


12
29
4


13
34
5


14
34
5


15
39
5


16
39
5


17
44
6


18
44
6


19
49
6


20
49
6



Note: This table is derived from converting smites into damage dice, treating 4th and 5th level slots identically (due to the previous cap). This produces a very small buff at very high levels, since now a "5th level slot" is 6d8, not 5d8.

[Calen]

Awesome change.
The one (kinda) con is that tracking higher numbers can be confusing for some players. By which I mean there is extra paperwork involved. Depends on your character sheet setup. That minor nitpick out of the way, what do you think the spell list should be pared down too? Balancing options versus bookkeeping could be an issue if you have all spells known.
The find steed option is really only necessary if you are keeping spells prepared?
Restoring smite dice when you fulfill the tenants of your oath could be a cool feature.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Awesome change.
The one (kinda) con is that tracking higher numbers can be confusing for some players. By which I mean there is extra paperwork involved. Depends on your character sheet setup. That minor nitpick out of the way, what do you think the spell list should be pared down too? Balancing options versus bookkeeping could be an issue if you have all spells known.
The find steed option is really only necessary if you are keeping spells prepared?
Restoring smite dice when you fulfill the tenants of your oath could be a cool feature.

Tracking higher numbers isn't a problem for HP or spell points. And these are way smaller than either of those. If I didn't want to keep parity with existing, it'd probably be better to round those off more nicely and have more of an algorithmic/smooth (probably piecewise-smooth) increase instead of the more "random" looking increase.

Spell list: I'd probably cut it down to roughly 5-ish per spell level (more low level than high level spells). Plus the Oath Spells. Keep it to some combination of
1) really basic spells (ie Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, etc).
2) Paladin "exclusives" (auras, mostly)
3) A few Big Bang spells.

Really, I'd like to see a system where you could expend smite dice to add riders to your smite without adding damage (directly). So you could, say, do Banishing Smite's banish effect by expending an additional 3 dice. And then move the actual Smite Spells into being a cleric thing, sorta the "cheap knockoff" version of "real" smites.

Find Steed...that was kinda separate. But I really don't like the idea that bards get it before paladins do.

I could see individual Oaths having specific conditions that restore smite dice. And mechanisms. Such as a Devotion Paladin getting the ability to take a hit for someone else--if they do, they gain smite dice back. Etc.

[Ionathus]

I like the smite dice concept, would prefer a way to keep spellcasting around though. It feels kind of fiddly to have only the Paladin class track its spells differently than everyone else. If classes like Psion that cast from a pool of spell points were in the base game, this would be less of a concern since alternate spellcasting mechanics would already exist. As-is, it feels like it steps on Metamagic a little too much while also being pretty weird.

That said, I think I actually like the idea of burning smite dice to cast spells without preparing them. It's a neat mechanic. Just feels too out there for vanilla 5e unless you're also changing other spellcasting class mechanics.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I like the smite dice concept, would prefer a way to keep spellcasting around though. It feels kind of fiddly to have only the Paladin class track its spells differently than everyone else. If classes like Psion that cast from a pool of spell points were in the base game, this would be less of a concern since alternate spellcasting mechanics would already exist. As-is, it feels like it steps on Metamagic a little too much while also being pretty weird.

That said, I think I actually like the idea of burning smite dice to cast spells without preparing them. It's a neat mechanic. Just feels too out there for vanilla 5e unless you're also changing other spellcasting class mechanics.

You'd have to completely change the spell slot allocation if you gave paladins both regular slots and smite dice. They're designed around spending ~1/2 of their slots on smites (based on some numerics I did).

And frankly? Spellcasting needs lots of mixups. It's boring, it's bland, and it's unbalanceable as it stands.

[Ionathus]

You'd have to completely change the spell slot allocation if you gave paladins both regular slots and smite dice. They're designed around spending ~1/2 of their slots on smites (based on some numerics I did).

And frankly? Spellcasting needs lots of mixups. It's boring, it's bland, and it's unbalanceable as it stands.

No argument from me. Like I said, I do like these changes in a vacuum. Would be interested in seeing a proposal for changing the spellcasting mechanics for all classes, or at least half-casters and below (to give them a different feel than full casters)

[PhoenixPhyre]

No argument from me. Like I said, I do like these changes in a vacuum. Would be interested in seeing a proposal for changing the spellcasting mechanics for all classes, or at least half-casters and below (to give them a different feel than full casters)

My broad-brush-strokes proposal is actually similar to the smite dice--give them a resource they can use to, among other Big Cool Things, cast a few spells. Spells then become more of a utility/sidecar ability (access to a pool of generic effects), not a primary focus. Along with this, move a chunk of the "utility" abilities outside the spell-casting system entirely. Make them 4e-style rituals that anyone (of appropriate level) can use, balanced by things other than slots (a document along those lines is in this google doc (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18BwA_2ZVFezeVr7DaCrmSEvHE3DMsUHYsHoY8ADqnL8/edit?usp=sharing).

Basically, keep spell slots for "primary casters". Maybe even make it the Wizard Thing (or maybe Wizard + Cleric). Everyone else uses some individual resource, has spell-likes (similar to Warlock Invocations), etc. Yes, this does hose multiclassing without some change there. Mission accomplished!

Break the tyranny of the spell slot! Down with spell-casting monopolies!

[Yakk]

These look like over-complex different mechanic spell points.

Give them 1 point per Paladin level per short rest.

Casting a Paladin spell costs 1 point per level of the spell.

Smiting costs 1 point per d8. Or maybe toss in a bonus d8 if you feel nice.

---

An interesting alternative option is turning the Paladin into a prepared caster. They imbue their gear with blessings. You can have up to your proficiency bonus in spells imbued, and the total level of imbued spells cannot exceed your Paladin level.

The highest level Paladin spell they can imbue into a piece of gear is 1/4 of your Paladin level, rounded up.

You can expend your imbues either by casting them, or by smiting. When you use an imbue to smite, your attack deals an extra (Level+1)d8 damage (etc).

You can imbue gear as part of a short rest.

This is an alternative spell point system. It is short-rest based, instead of long-rest based, but it works reasonably well.

[PhoenixPhyre]

These look like over-complex different mechanic spell points.

Give them 1 point per Paladin level per short rest.

Casting a Paladin spell costs 1 point per level of the spell.

Smiting costs 1 point per d8. Or maybe toss in a bonus d8 if you feel nice.

---

An interesting alternative option is turning the Paladin into a prepared caster. They imbue their gear with blessings. You can have up to your proficiency bonus in spells imbued, and the total level of imbued spells cannot exceed your Paladin level.

The highest level Paladin spell they can imbue into a piece of gear is 1/4 of your Paladin level, rounded up.

You can expend your imbues either by casting them, or by smiting. When you use an imbue to smite, your attack deals an extra (Level+1)d8 damage (etc).

You can imbue gear as part of a short rest.

This is an alternative spell point system. It is short-rest based, instead of long-rest based, but it works reasonably well.

Both of those completely change the balance point of the class.

1 point per level / SR means that you've roughly tripled low-level paladin smites while only increasing high level ones by 50%. While also making spells cheaper.

The second changes things much more complexly and focuses primarily on spells, which is the exact opposite of the point here.

The point is to make spells less of their thing. Instead of worrying about spells as their primary and smites as their secondary (a spell-caster who can smite), the point is to make smiting their big thing and spells a distant secondary (a smiter who can do a few spell-like abilities). A secondary goal is to not change the balance point of the class--the reason my numbers are slightly weird is to replicate the existing potential. And separating it from spell points is a big feature for me--I don't want overlap in mechanics. The drive to have a single mechanic to rule them all flattens differences between classes. In a perfect world, while classes might share some spells, they'd each have their own way of casting them. Spell slots and preparations and all the component stuff, etc--those would be wizard rules. And be only one of many ways to approach magic.