Building a 3.5e Cleric of the Moon

[DarkMoon250]

Howdy! I've been playing 5e for about 3 years now, but recently, I've been given the chance to participate in a 3.5e game! It's set in a Middle-Earth inspired setting, but it includes pretty much anything found in the generic setting of the core 3.5e books.

We're using the gestalt variant for character creation, so we've currently got a Knight/Sorcerer (Stalwart), and a Swordmage/Swashbuckler. I want to be a Cleric/(Second Class Here), and I'm interested in making a lunar-themed servant of the elven deity Sehanine Moonbow or the raptoran deity Tuilviel Glithien. The character would be, correspondingly, elf or raptoran, depending on the choice I make.

I want to figure out what gestalt hybrid would benefit a Cleric and fill a missing role in this party, and which race might offer better options to the Cleric, whether it be something like the Seeker of the Misty Isle prestige class, or raptoran flight and substitution levels. I also know that I want the Moon Domain for sure, just for the spells and flavor (and because the setting is generic enough that we might have a few lycanthropes attacking us from time to time).

Also, what variants or alternate class traits might I want to look at for a Cleric, as well as any templates that might be good for me, because the Knight really wants to be a half-dragon, but doesn't want to deal with the level adjustment unless we all agree to have some kind of LA as well.

Any advice would be so very much appreciated :smallsmile:

[lylsyly]

one easy combo is cleric /// ranger. full bab, all good saves, martial weapons proficiency. some of the ranger abilities only work in light armor but with full cleric casting you really after the chassis not so much the class features.

[thethird]

I also think Ranger would work well for a gestalt. You can go with champion of the wild (from complete champion) ranger that will drop your ranger spells , and focus your spellcasting on the cleric side. For that you might want to look into cloistered cleric (from unearthed arcana or here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)) which will drop your bab and your armor proficiencies but those would mostly be picked by the ranger side.

Personally I would consider using swift hunter on the ranger side. Swift hunter (complete scoundrel) is a "multiclass" feat that let's you stack some of rangers and scout (complete adventurer) features, you want to take as many ranger levels as possible and have those progress skirmish for extra damage. Note that for favored enemies you have several options that come from splats and might not be entirely apparent. Arcane hunter (complete mage) is really good, there are some substitution levels (you don't need to take all of them) in races of the wild for elves, so check that if you play an elf.

What level are you starting at? What would you like your character to do?

If you somehow get free LA, seeing that comment on half dragons, perhaps avariel from races of faerun? That should get you a winged elf.

[DarkMoon250]

I also think Ranger would work well for a gestalt. You can go with champion of the wild (from complete champion) ranger that will drop your ranger spells , and focus your spellcasting on the cleric side. For that you might want to look into cloistered cleric (from unearthed arcana or here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)) which will drop your bab and your armor proficiencies but those would mostly be picked by the ranger side.

Personally I would consider using swift hunter on the ranger side. Swift hunter (complete scoundrel) is a "multiclass" feat that let's you stack some of rangers and scout (complete adventurer) features, you want to take as many ranger levels as possible and have those progress skirmish for extra damage. Note that for favored enemies you have several options that come from splats and might not be entirely apparent. Arcane hunter (complete mage) is really good, there are some substitution levels (you don't need to take all of them) in races of the wild for elves, so check that if you play an elf.

What level are you starting at? What would you like your character to do?

If you somehow get free LA, seeing that comment on half dragons, perhaps avariel from races of faerun? That should get you a winged elf.

We're starting at level 1.

I want my guy to feel slightly more Cleric-like than like his other class, doing what he can to buff, debuff, and generally support the party, but I thought about getting involved in some ranged combat as well.

[SimonMoon6]

If you're going to be a moon cleric, I might consider worshiping Eilistraee and then heading for the Sword Dancer prestige class. (May not work in your setting, but I wouldn't have thought that your other deities would either.)

I'm not sure how powerful it is (but it is a full casting class, with extra fighting with sword stuff). And you do have to be female. And it has a ton of feat prerequisites (but maybe you can pick them up from your other gestalt half). I think the most powerful part is probably being able to spontaneously cast domain spells (not just cure spells).

[ciopo]

First thought: check out the moonspeaker prestige class in races of eberron

As for Gestalt : if you want to empathize a support caster role, I'd double down with a second caster class. Not ideal due to action bottleneck, but "wide" as far as optionality is concerned. I'd consider cleric//bard I think

[Biggus]

one easy combo is cleric /// ranger. full bab, all good saves, martial weapons proficiency. some of the ranger abilities only work in light armor but with full cleric casting you really after the chassis not so much the class features.

...and 6 skills points per level.

Other classes:

Rogue seems to be a missing role in the party, and also gives a good chassis: BAB is only 3/4 but 8 skills points per level and all good saves.

Marshal is another good support class, Cha benefits both them and Clerics, both wear heavy armor, chassis not so good (although not terrible).

Bard also works quite well, again Cha synergy, all good saves and 6 skill points per level, and also has all the stealth and interaction skills.

Paladin has both Wis and Cha synergy, wears heavy armor, full BAB and d10 HD, with Cleric has two good saves and Divine Grace.

[Particle_Man]

I would nth ranger, and go with Raptoran (the light armor restriction is there for fliers too, so you might as well get the benefits of flying and ranger abilities for the price of no medium/heavy armor).

If you want more spells, Beguiler might fit (illusions/enchantment and moonlight are thematic, extra skill points are nice, and the weakness of Beguiler to some undead is overcome by, well, being a cleric).

[Rebel7284]

Well the first thing that comes to mind is using Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell on Moon Blade from the Moon domain and fighting with that.

With that said, Cleric is one of the most powerful and flexible classes and you can do MANY things with it as the base.

- An option to playing a gestalt Cleric is to... not be a Cleric. Archivist does very similar things but can pick up spells from ANY divine spell list and you can still be a "real" cleric since you're definitely adding at least one level of Cleric for Turn Undead anyway.
- Dweomerkeeper is considered the best caster cleric prestige class, and is easier to enter in Gestalt since you don't need a feat for arcane casting.
- Swordsage 2 dip for Wisdom to AC in light armor
- Death Delver dip for Rebuke Undead while being neutral or good
- While not great in regular games, Hierophant is much better in Gestalt
- Shadowcraft Mage can be done by a Cleric with the right domains (or Archivist of course) and opens your spell list quite a bit.
- Shiba Protector is a nifty dip, but costs 3 feats.
- Moon-Warded Ranger also adds Wis to AC, but requires you to not wear armor. Much more flavorful for this character than Swordsage, even if a bit weaker.
- If you can use Customize Mantle Ardent, you could use all those psionic powers to generate extra actions and then use those actions for casting spells. In general, extra actions are always good.
- Moonspeaker has been mentioned and is okay, although even better for a Druid.

[Maat Mons]

Player’s Handbook II has an ACF that lets you spontaneously convert prepared spells into spells from one of your domains. Depending on how much you like the spells from your domains, that can be nice. If you go with Sehanine Moonbow, Illusion and Travel could both be fun domains. Elf is a staple domain for Cleric archers, but since you’re playing gestalt, you could probably find other ways to get bonus feats. I forget where Zen Archery is from, but that feat is also a staple of cleric archers.

If Dragon Compendium is an allowed source, the Serenity feat can make a Cleric // Paladin work quite nicely. Unearthed Arcana has the Paladin of Freedom variant, if being Lawful doesn’t suit your concept. If you have access to Dragon magazine, issue 349 has the Aura of Sanctity ACF, which gives up the Paladin’s Turn Undead for immunity to Death effects. Since you already have Turn Undead from Cleric, you don’t want to overlap. Cloistered Cleric would help you also avoid overlapping armor proficiencies.

A potential oddball gestalt with Cleric is Ninja, which gives Trapfinding, skills, and Wis to AC when not wearing armor. But if Dragon magazine is allowed, you’d be better off using the aforementioned Moon-Warded Ranger for Wis to AC, since that also works in light armor. There’s also a Ranger ACF that gets Trapfinding, if you feel your party needs that.

Some of the best PrCs for Cleric are Divine Oracle and Contemplative.

Edit: If you wind up not liking one of your domain granted powers, you could just as well trade it for Spontaneous Restoration.

[thethird]

We're starting at level 1.

I want my guy to feel slightly more Cleric-like than like his other class, doing what he can to buff, debuff, and generally support the party, but I thought about getting involved in some ranged combat as well.

At level 1 wouldn't go with raptoran, your wings aren't all that useful, only allowing you to glide. There are very few races that would give you a bonus to wis, so if you want to go elf go with whichever kind of elf you feel like.

I definitely would go with the cloistered cleric on one side (this will get you knowledge skills, telling you about what you are fighting). As you get the knowledge domain you have a couple of options , you can trade it away for knowledge devotion (complete champion) or you could keep it, there are some good spells there. For the two additional domains assuming sehanine moonbow, elf domain is good, and it will get you a useful archery feat. Check the others and see if there is anything interesting there, I personally would pick travel, and trade it for travel devotion (from complete champion). Travel devotion is very good, as it let's you move as a swift action and gives you a way to spend your turn undead pool without requiring undead. Down the line you probably want to get into prcs, as cleric doesn't have that many class features. So some prcs to note: seeker of the misty isle (complete divine) at least for a one level dip, this will get you the travel domain if you traded it away or if you didn't pick it. Alternatively you could pick travel domain as your domain from cleric and take travel devotion here. Note that the text of seeker of the misty isle says that it's a full casting class, and that should supercede the table. Divine oracle, contemplative, and divine disciple are also worth a look, they will get you some extra domains.

On the other side, at level 1, I would pick ranger. Ranger has +1 bab and that let's you pick zen archery from complete warrior that will let you use wisdom to AC. I would ask the DM what kind of enemies are we going to encounter, if something falls under what the elf substitution levels for ranger would make better then I would pick that. Otherwise I would go with arcane hunter. From there, from second level to fifth level I would take scout levels (among other things this gets you trapfinding, which your party could use). At fifth the scout is giving you a bonus feat, take swift hunter (this will pump your favored enemy up). From there you can go back to taking ranger levels. Note that travel devotion, which I suggested above is really useful for a swift hunter scout, as you get to move as a swift action you will be able to move (trigger skirmish) and full attack.

[Anthrowhale]

In terms of race, you might consider Anthropomorphic Bat which may be to powerful for your table, but appears to fit. It gives flight at level 1, a bat themes well with the moon, and you get a +6 wisdom bonus.

In terms of party roles, is "swordmage" a "swordsage"? If not, covering the trapfinding role may be good. Rangers can do that as well via the trap expert ACF.

The moonblade spell mentioned above seems nice for undead disposal (double damage) and as a boss attack (due to spell/sla disruption). It is however not stealthy. Wielding it two-handed with power attack is the obvious way to increase damage, and if you wanted to do have a unique approach to dealing damage consider Greater Flyby attack, Surge of Fortune, and Sense Weakness. (The spell Fell the Greatest Foe may also come in handy.)

[Rebel7284]

If you have access to Dragon magazine, issue 349 has the Aura of Sanctity ACF, which gives up the Paladin’s Turn Undead for immunity to Death effects. Since you already have Turn Undead from Cleric, you don’t want to overlap. Cloistered Cleric would help you also avoid overlapping armor proficiencies.


Instead of giving up turn undead, you could instead take Rebuke Dragons.


An attempt to rebuke dragons counts as an attempt to turn or rebuke undead for the purpose of qualifying for or activating divine feats, or for using other abilities that require you to expend a use of your turn or rebuke ability.


If you really want, you can even get 4x the turn undead pools with something like

Azurin
Cloistered Cleric 7/Sacred Exorcist 1
//
Paladin 4/Ranger 2/Death Delver 1/X 1

Channel Incarnum from Cloistered Cleric
Rebuke Dragons from Paladin
Turn Undead from Sacred Exorcist
Rebuke Undead from Death Delver

All explicitly work with divine feats.

I believe optionally you can also trade a Cleric's Turn Undead for Destroy Undead which frees up your race while keeping 4 pools.

[DarkMoon250]

Edit: If you wind up not liking one of your domain granted powers, you could just as well trade it for Spontaneous Restoration.

I can't find any info on Spontaneous Restoration. Do you know what source it comes from?

[Maat Mons]

I had the name slightly wrong. It's Divine Restoration. From Dungeonscape, page 9.

[Curbludgeon]

There are a couple of basic things with gestalt that tables interpret differently, which affects some potential answers. Consider finding out if prestige classes can only be taken on one side of the gestalt, if only one prestige class can be taken at a time, and if a casting progression can only be progressed via one side of the gestalt. Ask about fractional BaB/Saves, as well.

If it's cool at the table in question, this is a good opportunity to try out some classes that one would never otherwise consider. Something like Knight of the Raven misses out on a couple of levels, which could be supplemented by taking cleric at those levels. Here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?493135-List-of-all-3-5-prestige-classes-that-progress-spellcasting) is what looks to be a comprehensive list.

There are classes which could have some of their fluff scrubbed. S. Moonbow is a pretty magic-themed goddess, and so some tables would be cool with things like Dweomerkeeper, as an example.

Alternatively, one could fill up the not-cleric side with a bunch of dips to add Wis and Cha to stuff (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus), more Turning pools for DMM, etc. A fun example is a 1 level dip in Witch Hunter (OA) to get Cha to saves without much effort. An example that is technically 3.5 but some bristle at would be a 1 level dip of Mystic from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and getting a Turn Undead pool from that class' Sun domain. One thing worth considering then is at what point it's preferable to switch from Cloistered Cleric back to standard

If something simple is preferable, particularly since this cleric is quite capable of dominating the rest of the party, then just going cleric/wizard or cleric/ranger works just fine.

[Rebel7284]

casting progression can only be progressed via one side of the gestalt.

Gestalt doesn't have sides at all.
While I have seen this houserule in the past, it always seemed very strange to me that a convention on how gestalt is written down would spawn its own restriction...
I agree with the rest of the points. Gestalt has several open ended bits/recommendations and knowing exactly which choices are made there would be nice.

And yeah, Cloistered Cleric/Ranger does indeed have the simplicity, but I enjoy more complexity, and optimizing prestige classes in Gestalt always seemed more fun to me!
For example, Void Disciple has some VERY nifty flavor any unique abilities, and also REALLY sucks outside of gestalt due to the 5 lost caster levels.
Your mileage may very of course!

[Telonius]

I'd see this as kind of a split concern: you want to be personally effective, but also want to fill roles that are lacking in the group. It looks like you have melee and arcane casting covered. You're lacking divine casting (covered by your Cleric side), but seem a little thin on the skillmonkey and face roles. Knight could do it, but with only 2+Int skill points per level, they're probably going to be focusing on arcane skills for the other side of their gestalt; similar deal with the Swashbuckler//Swordsage. (It is Swordsage not Swordmage, correct?). It also looks like nobody has Use Magic Device as a class skill or Trapfinding. (Trapfinding's usefulness really depends on the DM. If they're trap-happy, it's essential; if it never comes up it's useless). So, all of that suggests something with at least a couple levels of Rogue, Beguiler, or Bard.

On the other hand, Ranger meshes a lot better in Gestalt, giving you full BAB and a bunch of useful abilities for active combat, Wis synergy for casting, and a much better thematic match for a Moon cleric.

So here's what I'd do. First level, Cleric//Rogue. Rogue to get a whole bunch of class skills on the list in case you need them; and take it at first to maximize the number of skill points (getting the x4). Level 2, Cleric2//Rogue1/Ranger1. Focus on ranged from there out. It does cost you 1 BAB in the long run, but I'd think it's worth it for the versatility.

[Rebel7284]

It does cost you 1 BAB in the long run, but I'd think it's worth it for the versatility.

Ignoring BAB and just DMM persisting divine power also works. Sure it can be dispelled, but that opens up the built a lot more.

[smasher0404]

Ignoring BAB and just DMM persisting divine power also works. Sure it can be dispelled, but that opens up the built a lot more.

The game is starting from level 1 as OP stated earlier. Divine Power doesn't normally come online until level 7, and Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) is fairly feat intensive (It requires 3 feats to even get started, and some investment into your turning pools to really take off the ground). The God options OP seems to be considering also lean against said playstyle (IIRC neither of them grant the planning or undeath domain which help alleviate some of the costs of the playstyle.)

Plus, in gestalt, Divine Power becomes a less valuable pick, because you can just pair a Cloistered Cleric with full BAB classes to get mostly the same effect.

For reference, OP, Divine Power is a core spell which sets your BAB equal to your character plus gives you a +6 bonus to strength and a pile of temp hp.

Divine Metamagic is from Complete Divine, and allows you to spend turn attempts to apply metamagic feats to spells instead of using a higher level slot.

Persistent Spell from Complete Arcane is a metamagic feat that allows certain spells to last 24 hours.

[DarkMoon250]

So, this 3.5e game... already burned down, for reasons involving some members of the group that I'd rather not go into. HOWEVER, a veteran player/DM came in to the rescue and brought up the idea of a campaign for their own setting!

I'm still probably going Cleric, or maybe Favored Soul, but gestalt is not allowed in this new game. I got 15, 14, 13, 13, 13, and 13 for my stats, so I'm thinking about trying aasimar to boost the important stats, but I don't know if I want to deal with level adjustment (though, while typing this, I just remembered the lesser aasimar). Either that or raptoran, still, because it looks like we might be starting at level 5, so flight is an immediate option.

Traits and flaws are both allowed, but I can only take level 1 bonus feats.

The allowed deities for the setting that I'm interested in include a renamed Selune, and the main raptoran goddess, updated to include the Moon and Night domains in her repertoire.

[lylsyly]

Cleric (if interested in Melee) or Cloistered Cleric (if allowed and you are wanting to play a straight caster) 3 / Church Inquisitor 2 / Divine Oracle 6 / Contemplative 9 Loses no casting and adds about as many domains as you cant get.

Selune as some good domains but I'm not familiar with the Raptoran Deity. Feats would depend on if you want melee or not.

[DarkMoon250]

Cleric (if interested in Melee) or Cloistered Cleric (if allowed and you are wanting to play a straight caster) 3 / Church Inquisitor 2 / Divine Oracle 6 / Contemplative 9 Loses no casting and adds about as many domains as you cant get.

Selune as some good domains but I'm not familiar with the Raptoran Deity. Feats would depend on if you want melee or not.

My character and both of the gods I'm considering for them are CG, so I don't think Church Inquisitor can fit in there.

The raptoran deity, Tuilviel Glithien, offers the base domains of Good, Chaos, Air, Protection, and Sky, based on her description in Races of the Wild, but she is explicitly described as a lunar and nocturnal god, so the DM considers the Night and Moon domains to count.

[lylsyly]

So drop CI and add more Cleric. Personally I thinks Selune has better domains but it is YOUR character ;-)