Does anything break *hilariously* if you mimic Druid & Barbarian capstones?

[Ionathus]

I was reading an old 5e forum thread about how the Monk's lvl 20 capstone stinks and their actual capstone is lvl 18, and how only having 4/20 ki points available at the start of a high-tier fight seems laughable.

But Barbarians can rage infinitely at 20, and druids can wildshape infinitely. These are big cool power spikes that make you feel like you can constantly do your class's defining actions, and you've finally gotten so good you never have to worry about "holding back". You're still constrained by action economy, and it's not like you're getting better features necessarily - you can just use them constantly.

Does anything truly break in an unplayable way if you extend this to the rest of the classes? Not counting spellslots, which are a different resource mechanic entirely. Level 20 characters are meant to be practically demigods, and conventional wisdom is that "balance" is just a straight-up laughable concept at that level anyway.

Here are my thoughts on what this would do to the class list:

Artificer: Unlimited Flash of Genius. I debated Infusions or infinite Attunement slots, but ultimately that's a ton of abuse potential. Unlimited flash of genius makes the Artificer feel consistently useful on party saves and checks, while also limiting their infinite resource to 1/turn and eating their reaction. I think it's a fair trade.
Barbarian: unchanged. Unlimited rages is a fun feature but isn't likely to add much outside of special conditions (Zealot barb, etc)
Bard: Unlimited Bardic Inspiration. Most BI features require a bonus action, so it remains limited to once/turn. There might be some niche cases I'm forgetting.
Cleric: unchanged. Improved Divine Intervention is flavorful and powerful enough, and unlimited Channel Divinity is probably too strong (though if you're in a HIGH high magic campaign I could see it)
Druid: unchanged. Unlimited wildshape gets a ton of attention in discussions, especially for Moon Druids. I think every class should feel the way druids do at 20.
Fighter: Unlimited Action Surge. Hear me out here: being a pure 20-level Fighter means no multiclass Action Surge shenanigans. Eldritch Knight probably gets a huge power spike, which I'm not complaining about. Fighters get to fight a lot, swing their sword for days, and to feel like masters of the action economy. At the end of the day, this still isn't as broken as a vanilla 20 Wizard and we all know it.
Monk: Unlimited ki. Most subclass features are already capped at the amount of ki that can be spent on a special effect (e.g. "for every ki point spent up to a maximum of 4..."). Ultimately I don't see a lot of crazy nova potential, monks would just have consistently good turns where every strike can potentially be a Stunning one which, at level 20, kinda makes sense?
Paladin: Unlimited channel divinity. Even though this is a huge resource boost, Paladin CD options are weaker than Cleric ones on average and I don't see a ton of abuse potential. Many paladins would still probably choose to smite on the average turn rather than use their action for a CD every time.
Ranger: Uncertain. Ranger doesn't have a good "resource" beyond spell slots, which gets kind of finnicky. Maybe Foe Slayer always applies to every attack?
Rogue: Also uncertain. Rogues don't have a good resource either. Maybe Cunning Action becomes a free action, so every turn they get to pick a Dash, Disengage, or Hide to just happen without spending their bonus action to do it?
Sorcerer: Unlimited use of a chosen metamagic. Might be too strong. Unlimited sorcery points would fit the theme here, but it feels ridiculously powerful for a full-fledged blaster caster.
Warlock: Unlimited spellslots. I know, unlimited 5th-level spells, this one's probably the most overpowered one on the list. At the same time, so many spells are limited by casting time, and at 20 they've got all the Mystic Arcana to burn through as well, so realistically it's not gonna come into play until round 6 or 7 of a big combat (and at 20, all combats are big) where they would've otherwise run out.
Wizard: Unlimited Signature Spells. "Two extra 3rd-level spellslots" is also a pretty laughable capstone. These jerks can cast Wish. Give 'em unlimited base-level Fireballs, they're level 20, it's not gonna actually break anything they haven't already broken.

I recognize this is a pretty ridiculous proposal. But level 20 is already ridiculous, so I see no reason to not be consistently ridiculous across all classes.

What do y'all think?

[Greywander]

I think it's a bigger problem if a class isn't broken at level 20. That said, you do want at least some semblance of balance. For Rage and Wild Shape, specifically, do note that these both have a longer duration and are expected to always be available. If the barbarian is out of rages, then that's cause to stop and rest. Infinite Rages and Wild Shapes doesn't really break anything, per se, it just means you don't have to worry about running out. It's not the same as, say, infinite Action Surges, which would be a massive boost in power since you could now spam it. TBH, I think a lot of similar principles are going to apply as when considering which spells are okay to make at will. At will Enlarge/Reduce is fun and doesn't benefit from spamming, whereas Fireball would.


Artificer: Unlimited Flash of Genius.
Free +5 to every ability check and saving throw anyone in the party makes outside of combat. Way too strong and abusable, and not particularly fun. It has all the same issues as Guidance but cranked up to 11.

As an alternative, I might do something like being able to attune to a magic item or infuse an item in only one minute. That said, artificers already get a pretty decent capstone.


Bard: Unlimited Bardic Inspiration.
Similar to above. Still, you could copy the Swords bard subclass capstone and allow using a d6 instead without expending a use of BI.


Fighter: Unlimited Action Surge. Hear me out here:
Counterpoint: this doesn't actually address the actual issues of being a high level fighter competing with classes like wizards and druids. All you've done is double how fast they can swing their sword, which wasn't something they needed help with in the first place.


Monk: Unlimited ki.
Monks actually have quite a bit of nova potential, but I do agree that running out of ki is something they shouldn't have to worry about at this point. What I've done before is allow them to regenerate 1 ki per turn, up to a max of 4, but the issue with that is that it doesn't become useful until you're already out of ki. Instead, I might consider something like giving them 1 free ki to spend every turn, but it can't be stockpiled. This would be something they can use right away from full ki, would significantly extend how long their ki lasts, and still insures they never really "run out" (though there's only so much you can do with a single ki point, even if you get it back every turn).

I'm not sure I have much useful to say about any of the rest of these. There's just a lot that needs to be considered, and not every class really needs a better capstone.

[Ionathus]

Thanks for your response! Good point on Barbarian & Druid being longer duration - though I know especially Moon Druids can abuse the infinite wildshapes for basically infinite hitpoints if an enemy can't clear the damage threshold.

Agreed that Artificer and Bard abilities could be broken if spammed out of combat: it reminds me of the abuse potential of Healing Spirit. I disagree that it's the Guidance problem, because I've never seen Guidance as a problem either if you enforce the spirit of Guidance and of ability checks (e.g. Guidance isn't a reaction, casting a spell takes effort and draws attention, you only roll a check if there are meaningful consequences for success and failure, time should almost always be a factor) but that's a different conversation altogether.

Another approach to monk: all ki costs are reduced by 1 point? That would allow them to always Flurry of Blows, always Stunning Strike, always Step of the Wind for free, but your ki will still deplete if you blow all of your high-level features constantly.

Also I love this quote:


I think it's a bigger problem if a class isn't broken at level 20.

I'm always baffled when people try to kneecap level 20 features. It is the ultimate power fantasy. It should feel insane.

But then again I'm a big BGII player, and it's hard to forget how those high level abilities actually gave me the feeling of being a whirling hurricane of blades and death. Druid is really the only capstone in 5e that even begins to approach that feeling. For the most part, all the rest just feel like another minor increment.

[Greywander]

The main issue with Guidance is that it's boring. Like, if you had to choose between getting a +10 bonus to all attack rolls or being able to teleport between shadows, which ability would you take? The former is effective, but boring, while the latter is situational, but fun. Simply making a PC more effective isn't in itself bad, and is in fact expected, but the last thing you want is for the player to be bored.

For example, we could imagine a fun twist on Guidance where it functions more like Augury: the spell is cast concerning a specific task a character is about to perform, and once cast, you're committed to getting a bonus or penalty to that ability check, if you decide to go through with it. On a result of weal, rolling an even number on the ability check will add an additional 1d8, whereas a result of woe will subtract 1d8 on an odd number. Like with Augury, you can also get both weal and woe at the same time, which means rolling even or odd might make more of a difference than rolling high or low. Sure, this is weaker than vanilla Guidance, but that's not why I think something like this would be better. Rather, I think it's just more interesting, and there may even be times when a player would rather not get Guidance before making an ability check (e.g. if they can't afford to walk away, nor can they afford to take a potential penalty, and the potential bonus isn't worth the risk). Vanilla Guidance requires very little thought to use; just apply it to every ability check where you have a chance to cast it beforehand.

Moon druids have the same issue that Mercy monks would have with regenerating/free ki. Most monks can't do a lot with ki outside of combat, especially if they only limit themselves to abilities that only cost 1 ki, but Mercy monks can spam heals. You could limit the infinite Wild Shapes to only apply to vanilla Wild Shape forms and not the Moon Druid's Circle Forms or elemental forms, and likewise make the free ki point not usable for heals, but that's straying into finicky territory. TBH, as far as Mercy monk goes, I think it's more a weakness of D&D as a system that infinitely spamming a weak heal can break the game.

As for reducing all ki costs by 1, the issue there is that most of the monk's ki features only cost 1 point. There's a massive difference between being able to Flurry or Stunning Strike once on every round without using up any ki vs. being able to Flurry and Stunning Strike on every attack, on every round. It also means you can infinitely spam Diamond Soul until you pass the save. I think Empty Body is actually the only base monk feature that uses more than 1 ki. You could literally pop Empty Body (which is basically Greater Invisibility) at the start of a fight, then Flurry every round and Stunning Strike on every attack, six times per short rest. Like at that point you may as well just remove all ki costs entirely.

Anyway, something I'm not clear on is if this thread is specifically about adding class capstones that specifically remove or reduce resource expenditure, or just improving capstones in general, and if these replace the existing capstones or are on top of them. Because those are like four different discussions right there. I think that removing or reducing resource expenditure only makes sense for certain classes, e.g. it's a lot less useful to rogues and fighters who are less reliant on resources in the first place; those classes might benefit more from a single-use nuke like most paladin capstones.

[animorte]

Absolutely, on the Monk unlimited Ki. It would just need require a certain combing through of the features to make sure they all have a proper limit each use, and other higher effects being limited per long rest.

I've never been terribly fond of the Cleric's divine intervention, but I suppose that would be fine, considering it is thematic.

I think the unlimited acton surge is a great idea actually. Yes, they could just swing the blade more, but they also have the option to actually use (sub)class features more often/consistent, without really losing out on damage.

I'm not sure exactly how many high CR monsters are just outright immune to spells below 6th level, but I know that's a thing. So, Warlock unlimited 5th level slots won't change those particular combats very much. Anything else though, it just depends on your spell list, really. Very strong.

[Kane0]

Considering its level 20 i doubt it would cause much harm, and its not like level 20 is all that balaned anyways.

[Amechra]

Honestly, making Flurry of Blows/Patient Defense/Step of the Wind free would be a pretty solid capstone, especially if you brought back a reference to the original Monk capstone (which set all of your ability scores to 20) and gave Monks +2 to all ability scores.

[J-H]

Epic Boons are a way to partly solve this, except WOTC can't write those well either.

Here are some of the class-specific Epic Boons I have written up for Against the Idol of the Sun (campaign log in progress, editing for DM's Guild publishing). Notes for this thread are in italics. Some of these might be good capstones, specifically the Monk, Druid, Fighter, and Rogue ones. Double cunning action may be OP.

Artificer
Quick Assembly
Crafting times are halved for all magical items. Potentially exploitable, but at this level, it should be

Superior Infusions
Infusions which directly grant a numerical bonus have this bonus increased by 1. This does not apply to magic item creations such as Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Now you're making your own +3 gear

Barbarian
Boon of Enduring Rage
Whenever a Barbarian uses the Relentless Rage feature and succeeds, his current hit points are set to the result of his Constitution saving throw instead of 1. Worth 20-30hp on Relentless Rage uses, which helps the healers out

Bard
Epic Inspiration
Bardic Inspiration dice change from d12 to d20. it's just a bigger number, but it's a big number

Cleric
Boon of Domain Knowledge
A cleric may choose an additional domain related to his or her deity. One of the domain spells for each spell level is added to your list of domain spells. versatility but mostly on the lower level spells

Druid
Supreme Wildshape
The maximum beast CR you can transform into is increased by 3. Great for Moon Druids, does open up options for other druids. Pretty much assumes every druid is wildshaping though.

Fighter
Boon of Many Styles
A fighter may select an additional fighting style from the Fighter list.

Boon of Style Mastery
The numerical bonuses granted by all fighting styles known are doubled. This can only be taken once. Stacks well with Boon of Many Styles to let a fighter's AC go up, make that Dueling a +4 to damage, Archery style becomes +4 to hit, etc. Makes Fighters better at fighting. The WOTC epic boons already include some speed boosts that give Fighters the combat mobility they need.

Boon of Battle Mastery
A Battlemaster gains 3 additional Superiority Dice.

Monk
Deep Impact
A monk’s martial arts dice increase to 1d20 for unarmed strikes. Copied from 3.5. Average 4 damage per hit, 12-16 DPR

Paladin
Blade Aura
Allies within the range of a Paladin’s aura deal additional force damage with their weapon attacks equal to the Paladin’s Proficiency Bonus. Goes well with the 30' aura. +6 to damage for everybody

Ranger
Boon of Foe Dodging
As long as a Ranger is aware of an attack from a Favored Enemy, his Proficiency Bonus is added to his AC versus that attack. +6 AC versus, what, 5 different enemy types? I already houserule +Wis to hit and damage vs favored enemies at 20.

Rogue
Boon of Supreme Cunning
A rogue may take two Cunning Actions as a bonus action instead of one. zoom zoom everywhere

Sorcerer
Boon of Metamagic Mastery
A sorcerer gains additional sorcery points equal to his Charisma modifier, and may apply two metamagics to a spell at once.

Boon of Sorcerous Insight
A sorcerer gains knowledge of two additional spells related to his Sorcerous Origin (DM approval required). The combined levels of the two spells may not be greater than 10. Want a level 8 and a level 2? Or a level 6 and a level 4?

Warlock
Boon of the Master’s Form
A warlock permanently takes on a physical characteristic or trait of his master. Examples:
Fiend: Resistance to fire & poison damage
Old One: Resistance to psychic damage, charm, and advantage on saves vs. telepathic effects
Undead: Darkvision 60’ and resistance to necrotic damage

Boon of the Master’s Gift
A warlock gains one additional spell slot, or one additional Mystic Arcanum.
better than "take 1.5% of a short rest"

Wizard
Boon of the Bound Spellbook
A wizard’s spellbook becomes mystically bound to his spirit. He can dismiss it to a small extraplanar storage space or recall it as a free action. As long as the wizard lives, his spellbook cannot be damaged by any spell effects of 8th level or lower.
Wizards don't need a lot of help

[Yakk]

Artificer: Unlimited Flash of Genius. I debated Infusions or infinite Attunement slots, but ultimately that's a ton of abuse potential. Unlimited flash of genius makes the Artificer feel consistently useful on party saves and checks, while also limiting their infinite resource to 1/turn and eating their reaction. I think it's a fair trade.
Bard: Unlimited Bardic Inspiration. Most BI features require a bonus action, so it remains limited to once/turn. There might be some niche cases I'm forgetting.

For these, give another charge every time they cast a leveled spell.

This is close to unlimited, but not quite! Use it too much (like every round for hours) and you run out.

Cleric: unchanged. Improved Divine Intervention is flavorful and powerful enough, and unlimited Channel Divinity is probably too strong (though if you're in a HIGH high magic campaign I could see it)
You could do the same with CD, if it wasn't for the fact you can get back spells by burning CDs.

Druid: unchanged. Unlimited wildshape gets a ton of attention in discussions, especially for Moon Druids. I think every class should feel the way druids do at 20.
If you changed this the same way (get back a wildeshape use when you cast a spell), the moon druid "infinite HP" stops working quite as well.

Fighter: Unlimited Action Surge. Hear me out here: being a pure 20-level Fighter means no multiclass Action Surge shenanigans. Eldritch Knight probably gets a huge power spike, which I'm not complaining about. Fighters get to fight a lot, swing their sword for days, and to feel like masters of the action economy. At the end of the day, this still isn't as broken as a vanilla 20 Wizard and we all know it.
For a Fighter, "regain a use of action surge by spending an action".

You'd start every fight with 2.

Alternatively, once per short rest allow you to regain *both* action surges as an action; you cannot do this on a turn you spend an action surge. This has some dramatic potential.

Monk: Unlimited ki. Most subclass features are already capped at the amount of ki that can be spent on a special effect (e.g. "for every ki point spent up to a maximum of 4..."). Ultimately I don't see a lot of crazy nova potential, monks would just have consistently good turns where every strike can potentially be a Stunning one which, at level 20, kinda makes sense?
I gave Monks 1 or 2 Ki each turn they can spend for free. Toss in some additional "burn Ki faster" abilities at lower levels and it works well, without making every punch a stunning strike automatically.

Paladin: Unlimited channel divinity. Even though this is a huge resource boost, Paladin CD options are weaker than Cleric ones on average and I don't see a ton of abuse potential. Many paladins would still probably choose to smite on the average turn rather than use their action for a CD every time.
Every time you cast a spell or use smite, regain 5 times the slot level in lay on hands points?


Ranger: Uncertain. Ranger doesn't have a good "resource" beyond spell slots, which gets kind of finnicky. Maybe Foe Slayer always applies to every attack?
Hunter's Mark no longer requires concentration, does not use spell slots, and can be applied without an action on a foe you hit.

Rogue: Also uncertain. Rogues don't have a good resource either. Maybe Cunning Action becomes a free action, so every turn they get to pick a Dash, Disengage, or Hide to just happen without spending their bonus action to do it?
"Whenever you make a d20 test and add your proficiency to the roll, instead add twice your proficiency." Expertise on everything.

Yes, this includes attacks.


Sorcerer: Unlimited use of a chosen metamagic. Might be too strong. Unlimited sorcery points would fit the theme here, but it feels ridiculously powerful for a full-fledged blaster caster.
Unlimited use of a chosen metamagic, and can apply a 2nd metamagic on top of that one.


Warlock: Unlimited spellslots. I know, unlimited 5th-level spells, this one's probably the most overpowered one on the list. At the same time, so many spells are limited by casting time, and at 20 they've got all the Mystic Arcana to burn through as well, so realistically it's not gonna come into play until round 6 or 7 of a big combat (and at 20, all combats are big) where they would've otherwise run out.
Once per short rest, as an action you can recover your Warlock spell slots.

Wizard: Unlimited Signature Spells. "Two extra 3rd-level spellslots" is also a pretty laughable capstone. These jerks can cast Wish. Give 'em unlimited base-level Fireballs, they're level 20, it's not gonna actually break anything they haven't already broken.
Spell Mastery are cast as if it was a 4th level slot.
Signature Spells are cast as if it was a 6th level slot.

This opens up some interesting effects. Offensive Spell Mastery spells are now a thing (at-will 3rd level magic missile is nice).

And Signature Spells at 6th level is also great. I'd make this apply even if you used a normal slot to cast that spell; so you can have 11d6 fireballs if you want.

[Crim the Cold]

For fighters, replace Indomitable with Legendary Resistance for its normal progression. For their level 20 capstone, in addition to the 3rd extra attack, make Legendary Resistance completely ignore all the effects of any effect that causes a save including any reduced effects on a successful save. When initiative is rolled, if the fighter has no uses of Legendary Resistance left they regain 1 use.

It is a much more powerful effect and also has a bit of a wow factor when the fighter gets hit with some 9th level spell like Meteor Swarm or Time Ravage and comes out completely unscathed.

[MetroAlien]

make Legendary Resistance completely ignore all the effects of any effect that causes a save including any reduced effects on a successful save.


this goes in a good direction in terms of power/usefulness and I can see how it fits thematically,
but imho it feels too much like a middle finger directed specifically at certain builds/enemy types.

If a player in my group said they wanted this, I'd think they're trying to find meta ways to avoid engaging with game elements... which isn't a bad thing by itself, I guess?
idk... it just feels strange?