New to 5e, but not D&D. LF help building an unarmed fighter with some casting.

[Meep Changeling]

Hello. I'm brand new to 5e and I have an idea I want to play, but I'm not sure how to best make it work or if it even can work in 5e. I would appreciate advice, tips, or even a full build if someone's feeling very generous.

Char concept is the PC is an extremely runty young dragon pretending to be a humanoid (You know, the Steel Dragon thing. Only this one is a scrawny nerd with the stats of a humanoid. I want it to be that all dragon abilities come from class abilities and flavoring rather than racial stats/abilities, so its fair for the other players and the GM is unlikely to say no when I ask to play a human / elf / whatever but with an at-will alter-self. Basically its a young dragon with early shapeshift doing the normal steel dragon thing and pretending to be a humanoid because... that's sort of just what they do!). I want them to be an unarmed fighter, and poking around here, I saw a barb/monk combo that would let me literally manifest beast claws and do great hand to hand damage. I think that's a good starting point (and could be a partial de-morph they sometimes do), but most dragons also have some spellcasting. At higher levels it would be cool to have a spell or three for emergencies, and I need to get a mechanic for a breath weapon *somehow*.

I could build this in 3.5 or PF1e and have it work... okay... but as I'm new to 5e, I have no idea how to make this and have it not be just crap and drag the party down. Any ideas?

EDIT: The GM has limited CC to the standard array for stats and with Volos guide, xanathars, and players handbook for the ONLY sources.

[animorte]

You say unarmed with some casting and my very first thought is Four Elements Monk. While it's gained a renown for being one of the worst designed subclasses, it still has some pretty cool tricks. I played one once and had a lot of fun, because you have an unlimited resource effect, though you might need to get creative. If you have a party of optimizers or full-casters, you'll definitely look like the weak link. But if everybody is there to have fun and you have a pretty well-balanced party, it won't really make too much a difference as long as you're having fun.

Sun Soul Monk also does a pretty solid job of looking like a DPS caster.

Shadow Monk, however, is the best Monk option for utility and having a few spells.

Mercy Monk is also very useful, being able to heal allies and harm enemies for fairly low cost by level 6.

(Of course, many people are convinced that playing a Monk in the first place is asking to be left behind, which is just plain wrong. They're one of the hardest classes to take down when you grow accustomed to the flow of combat and managing Ki.)

[Meep Changeling]

You say unarmed with some casting and my very first thought is Four Elements Monk.

Would I be able to select that type of monk without throwing off this build (posting link in plain text because I don't have enough posts here yet... forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622726-Prize-Fighter-Unarmed-Build#post_24815165 )? It seems like I could, but I'm not 100% certain.

[animorte]

Would I be able to select that type of monk without throwing off this build
It looks like those recommendations are mostly focused on taking 1 level of Monk, but to reach the subclass for spell-like effects, you need 3 levels of Monk.

[Kane0]

Eldritch Knight fighter, choosing the Unarmed fighting style.

[RogueJK]

forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622726-Prize-Fighter-Unarmed-Build#post_24815165

That was my Monk 1/Beast Barbarian X build. It's focused strictly on making the most of Beast Barbarian's natural weapon attacks, and will never gain any other Dragon-related stuff like a breath weapon or spellcasting.


However, Way of the Ascendant Dragon is a dragon-themed Monk subclass in the Fizban's Treasury of Dragons book. That sounds like the best option for what you've described.

They don't get spellcasting specifically, but they do get various dragon-themed magical abilities including stuff like a breath weapon, elemental damage and resistance, limited flight, a draconic fear aura, etc.

And as a Monk, they're all about making unarmed strikes. By the strict rules, your unarmed strikes will only be doing bludgeoning damage, but you could ask your DM if they'd allow them to do slashing or piercing damage as "claws". Otherwise, in order to get a non-bludgeoning unarmed strike, you'd have to pick a race that specifically has claws, like Tortle or Tabaxi.



Other than that Ascendant Dragon Monk subclass, the only way I could envision you have an unarmed-fighting dragon-themed spellcaster would be something like a Draconic Sorcerer who either dipped a level of Fighter for the Unarmed fighting style, or took a feat like Fighting Initiate to get the Unarmed fighting style or Tavern Brawler to get a better unarmed strike. But any way you go about it, that's going to be a pretty poor unarmed fighter, in exchange for getting spellcasting and a few vaguely Dragon-related Sorcerer subclass abilities.

If you stretch it even further, you could do something like a Light Cleric (a fire-themed Cleric subclass) with 1 level in Monk. Again, you'd be primarily a spellcaster with very limited unarmed strike capabilities. And there's nothing overtly dragon-related about it, so you'd have to reflavor things into being (for example) "exhaling my fiery dragon breath" instead of merely "casting the Fireball spell".

On the other side of things, Eldritch Knight could be a decent unarmed fighter with the Unarmed fighting style, and they do get some spells, but there's nothing dragon-related about them, and they only have extremely limited spellcasting.

All in all, I'd say Ascendant Dragon Monk is what you want here.

[Meep Changeling]

However, Way of the Ascendant Dragon is a dragon-themed Monk subclass in the Fizban's Treasury of Dragons book. That sounds like the best option for what you've described.
Hey! Nice to see you. I'll take a look at that subclass. Hopefully that's a book the DM is allowing :3

[Unoriginal]

Hello. I'm brand new to 5e and I have an idea I want to play, but I'm not sure how to best make it work or if it even can work in 5e. I would appreciate advice, tips, or even a full build if someone's feeling very generous.

Char concept is the PC is an extremely runty young dragon pretending to be a humanoid (You know, the Steel Dragon thing. Only this one is a scrawny nerd with the stats of a humanoid. I want it to be that all dragon abilities come from class abilities and flavoring rather than racial stats/abilities, so its fair for the other players and the GM is unlikely to say no when I ask to play a human / elf / whatever but with an at-will alter-self. Basically its a young dragon with early shapeshift doing the normal steel dragon thing and pretending to be a humanoid because... that's sort of just what they do!). I want them to be an unarmed fighter, and poking around here, I saw a barb/monk combo that would let me literally manifest beast claws and do great hand to hand damage. I think that's a good starting point (and could be a partial de-morph they sometimes do), but most dragons also have some spellcasting. At higher levels it would be cool to have a spell or three for emergencies, and I need to get a mechanic for a breath weapon *somehow*.

I could build this in 3.5 or PF1e and have it work... okay... but as I'm new to 5e, I have no idea how to make this and have it not be just crap and drag the party down. Any ideas?

Dragon Ascendant Monk.

You get unarmed fighting, a breath weapon, temporary flight (at lvl 6), etc.

You can get magic from feats like Magic Initiate.

[Meep Changeling]

The GM has limited CC to the standard array for stats and with Volos guide, xanathars, and players handbook for the ONLY sources. Any ideas?

[RogueJK]

With those source restrictions, I don't know of any way to get 100% of what you're wanting.

You are going to have to compromise on at least some of things you're wanting. So decide which things you're willing to compromise on, being able to pick basically 2-4 of these 5 things you're wanting:
1) Effective unarmed strikes
2) Claws
3) Breath Weapon
4) Spellcasting
5) Humanoid appearance, not Draconic

Here are some options:

Variant Human race Four Elements or Sun Soul Monk
PROS
-Very effective unarmed strike
-Limited spellcasting, which you could potentially flavor as "breathing fire" or similar
-Looks Humanoid
CONS
-Spellcasting is very limited
-No breath weapon
-No claws
STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 13+1
CHA 12
ASIs: Mobile or Lucky at Level 1, +2 DEX at 4, +2 WIS at 8, +2 DEX at 12


Half-Elf race Draconic Sorcerer
PROS
-Effective spellcasting
-Dragon-themed subclass
-Looks Humanoid
CONS
-Totally lacks any effective unarmed strike
-No innate breath weapon, but you can cast the Dragon's Breath spell
STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 13+1
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 14+2
ASIs: +2 CHA at 4, Warcaster at 8, +2 CHA at 12


Dragonborn race Draconic Sorcerer with the Dragon Hide feat
PROS
-Effective spellcasting
-Dragon-themed subclass
-Breath weapon
-Claw attack
CONS
-Claw attack will be mostly ineffective; you'd be better off focusing on just spellcasting instead
-Dragon Hide feat AC bonus is redundant with your Draconic Resilience subclass ability
-Overtly Draconic-looking, though you can use the Alter Self spell to look Humanoid for 1 hour
-Claws won't be available until Level 4 at the earliest
STR 12+2
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+1
ASIs: Dragon Hide (+1 CHA) at 4, Resilient CON at 8, Skill Expert (+1 CHA) at 12


Dragonborn race Eldritch Knight Fighter with the Dragon Hide feat:
PROS
-Breath weapon
-Claw attacks
-Limited spellcasting
-Decently effective unarmed claw strikes, though not as effective as a Monk
CONS
-Claws will be less effective than just using a weapon, since their stats are effectively "daggers that can't be Thrown or Finessed"
-Spellcasting is very limited, and will be mostly defensive
-Overtly Draconic-looking
-Claw attacks won't be available until Level 4
-Dragon Hide's AC boost will be wasted, since you'll be wearing heavy armor
STR 14+2
DEX 10
CON 15
INT 13
WIS 8
CHA 10+1
Defense fighting style
ASIs: Dragon Hide (+1 CON) at 4, +1 INT/+1 CHA at 6, +2 STR at 8, +2 STR or CON at 12


I'd say the Dragonborn Eldritch Knight Fighter with Dragon Hide's claws is likely to be what gets you closest to what you're wanting overall, as long as you're okay with them looking like a Humanoid Dragon. (Or unless the DM is willing to let you appear Human while still having the stats of the Dragonborn race.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Sun Soul Monk also does a pretty solid job of looking like a DPS caster.
{snip}
(Of course, many people are convinced that playing a Monk in the first place is asking to be left behind, which is just plain wrong.
Monks are a lot of fun to play.

For the OP: how many people in the group? How many PC's?

Draconis Origin Sorcerer has a melee, unarmed attack with Shocking Grasp (Cantrip) if he'd like it, but that may not be enough.
If the DM allowed fizban's, the monk from there would work but I'd suggest Sun Soul for a nice mix of melee and casting abilities.

[Unoriginal]

The GM has limited CC to the standard array for stats and with Volos guide, xanathars, and players handbook for the ONLY sources. Any ideas?

Dragonborn Monk or Variant Human Draconic Sorcerer with Tavern Brawler sound like the closest options, then.

Or maybe Eldritch Knight Fighter with Tavern Brawler.

[RogueJK]

Dragonborn Monk

With Standard Array stats, and without TCoE's ability to move around racial stat bonuses, that's going to be quite tough to pull off. You'd be looking at:
STR 8+2
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 12+1

That saddles you with an abysmal 13 AC from levels 1-3, and then 15 AC from levels 4-7, 16 AC from 8-11, etc. Not a recipe for survival.

[Unoriginal]

With Standard Array stats, and without TCoE's ability to move around racial stat bonuses, that's going to be quite tough to pull off. You'd be looking at:
STR 8+2
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 12+1

That saddles you with an abysmal 13 AC from levels 1-3, and then 15 AC from levels 4-7, 16 AC from 8-11, etc. Not a recipe for survival.

Why put the 14 in CON?

You could have:

DEX 15
CON 12
WIS 14
CHA 13+1

For AC 14 at lvl 1 and a decent CHA score.

Or put the 13 in CON so that the first ASI bumps DEX and CON.

Or you can even go STR Monk, with STR 15+2 at lvl 1 and Dragon Hide at lvl 4, which I admit is a built with an abysmal AC but a nice damage output.

[animorte]

You are going to have to compromise on at least some of things you're wanting.
That's exactly the concern. In short, I agree with one of these options:


Variant Human race Four Elements or Sun Soul Monk

I'd say the Dragonborn Eldritch Knight Fighter with Dragon Hide's claws is likely to be what gets you closest to what you're wanting overall

Draconis Origin Sorcerer has a melee, unarmed attack with Shocking Grasp (Cantrip) if he'd like it, but that may not be enough.

Going with Monk, you can get unarmed and spell effects, but may need to miss out on being a dragon. Of course, there's a Strength-based, armored Monk floating around somewhere...

Going with anything else may get you the dragon concept, but certainly a weaker unarmed option (tavern brawler) or an entirely different unarmed option (touch spells).

I suppose it depends entirely on what you prioritize the most.

[RogueJK]

Of course, there's a Strength-based, armored Monk floating around somewhere...

True, but STR-based Armored Monks (STRonks) are fiddly and underpowered, require an even bigger stat spread than the standard Monk, generally rely on weapons instead of unarmed strikes and work best (though still not super great) with the Kensei subclass which doesn't get anything like what the OP is wanting, and overall are a very poor choice for a new player. Hence why I didn't even go there. :smallwink:

But if I had to try to make an armored STRonk to meet most of what the OP wants within the stated limitations, it'd probably look like this:

Dragonborn Fighter 1/Four Elements Monk X
STR 15+2
DEX 13
CON 12
INT 8
WIS 14
CHA 10+1
Defense Fighting Style
ASIs: Dragon Hide (+1 STR) at 4, +2 WIS at 8, +2 WIS or CON or STR at 12
Wear heavy armor and use a shield.

or

VHuman Fighter 1/Four Elements Monk X
STR 15+1
DEX 12+1
CON 13
INT 8
WIS 14
CHA 10
Defense fighting style
ASIs: Tavern Brawler (+1 CON) at 1, +2 STR at 4, +2 WIS at 8, +2 WIS or STR at 12
Wear heavy armor and use a shield.

But ether one is less effective at unarmed strikes compared to the VHuman Monk I suggested earlier, and the Dragonborn STRonk in particular is much squishier than the Dragonborn Eldright Knight with a significantly less powerful CON-based breath weapon. Plus they'd be a level behind in class progression and ASIs compared to all the single-class builds I suggested. And it's not any more effective at spellcasting or making unarmed attacks than the Dragonborn EK would be, since you're likely to be spending all your Ki on the occasional expensive and limited spell and therefore rarely utilizing Flurry of Blows, and being armored you don't get access to Martial Arts' BA unarmed strike anyway. (An unarmed STRonk could be a little more doable without the limitation of fixed racial stat bonuses and standard array, and with access to other sourcebook stuff like the Unarmed Fighting Style from TCoE, but it still wouldn't be that great.)

So if unarmed strikes is what you're wanting to focus on, with just a side of spellcasting, I'd recommend sticking with either the VHuman Monk or Dragonborn EK from my earlier post, depending on which compromise you can live with. Either one will be more effective, and more straightforward, than a STRonk.

[Willowhelm]

I understand the DM has stated source restrictions. It would still be worth asking if you can use the ascendant dragon monk.

If it’s for setting/theme reasons then your character concept also seems problematic, however you make it work.

If it’s for balance reasons then it isn’t a broken subclass and should be fine.

If it is because they don’t own the source… well you can buy just that one subclass yourself on dnd beyond. You don’t need to pay for an entire source book unless you want to.

Run it by them. Seems much easier than jumping through hoops to make something else fit.

[Meep Changeling]

VHuman Fighter 1/Four Elements Monk X
This looks like about what I want to do. Thank you!

[Meep Changeling]

I understand the DM has stated source restrictions. It would still be worth asking if you can use the ascendant dragon monk.

If it’s for setting/theme reasons then your character concept also seems problematic, however you make it work.

If it’s for balance reasons then it isn’t a broken subclass and should be fine.

If it is because they don’t own the source… well you can buy just that one subclass yourself on dnd beyond. You don’t need to pay for an entire source book unless you want to.

Run it by them. Seems much easier than jumping through hoops to make something else fit.
I'm going to run it by them. It breaks nothing since we're in grayhawk and I'm attempting to play a steel dragon with garbage stats for a dragon. I'm being lore-compliant here, given Steels generally just take a human guize and go adventuring. The only lore-unfriendly thing here is my PC would be the *runtiest* dragon ever. But I think "The stats are equivalent to any other PC" would make it work, and I can also fall back on "she's nuts and thinks she's a dragon."

Also I can't buy it on D&D Beyond. We're using Fantasy Grounds.

[CTurbo]

You could be a Dragonborn Fighter with a small Draconic Sorcerer dip. Obviously take the Unarmed Fighting style. You could RP as in your regular form, you barely resemble a dragon unless you cast a spell at which time your draconic appearance shows through. You won't have a high enough AC to make use of the Draconic Sorc's unarmored AC. This would get you what you're after. If you need more spellcasting, just take more Sorcerer levels at some point.


or


You could be a Paladin with a dip in Draconic Sorcerer for even more spellcasting.


2 levels of Warlock gets you Disguise Self at will which could work for you. It seems like you probably wouldn't want to play as a Dragonborn so taking some levels of Draconic Sorcerer is the only way I know of for you to get some "dragon-like" abilities.


If you are ok with Dragonborn, Xanathar's has the 2 Dragonborn Racial feats that normally aren't really worth it, but could be decent for you as a Fighter that gets extra ASIs. You could get claws and a different dragon breath that causes fear.

[Willowhelm]

Also I can't buy it on D&D Beyond. We're using Fantasy Grounds.

I’m sure there are other ways to get it. I was just pointing out it is possible to obtain legally for less than the price of a whole source book.

[Meep Changeling]

Thank you for the help, everyone :3

[KorvinStarmast]

The GM has limited CC to the standard array for stats and with Volos guide, xanathars, and players handbook for the ONLY sources. Any ideas? OK, I'll see what I can dream up.

That's exactly the concern. In short, I agree with one of these options Hmm, with only Xan's, Volo's, and PHB, I wonder if a Sun Soul monk would handle what you desire?

Thank you for the help, everyone :3 You could create a vHuman into a Sun Soul Monk and reskin the radiant ranged attacks as coming out from your Character as breath, not as 'thrown' radiant damage. Most DM's I know would probably roll with that. At level 6, the 'burning hands' could be reskinned as dragon breath most likely. The 11th level Fireball/Searing sunburst likewise.

Here's a notional approach:
Standard Array: 15 14 13 12 10 8
Resilient Wisdom Feat.
S: 13 D 15 C 12 I 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
S 13 D 16 C 12 I 10 Wis 16 (+1 vhuman +1 feat) Cha 8
Boost Dex at level 4.
Boost Wisdom at level 8.

What level to you think you all will play to? 9? 11? 13?