Celestial ape optimization

[Soranar]

ok I'm thinking of building a druid with a celestial ape as an animal companion by using

natural bond (to offset taking an ape animal companion at level 4 ) and exalted companion (celestial template)

in this case making the ape exalted seems like it's worth it

-he gains INT 3 , making it able to take any feat
-full BAB (which gives him 4 attacks at maximum level)
-d10 hitpoints
-2 good saves
-it starts with 10ft reach and I can give it a reach weapon for a total of 20ft reach which isn't bad

my question is, what feats would you give it? with bonus hitpoints he should accumulate 4 feats

so far I'm thinking exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain) , combat reflexes, mage slayer (even cross class he can afford to spend 4 skillpoints on spellcraft) and pierce magical protection

or

exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain), power attack, improved bullrush and shock trooper?

It doesn't get pounce so I'm thinking I prefer it as a reach bodyguard but I'd like people's opinion on it, maybe there are better smart animal companions I could pick ,this one just seems pretty good

in either case I can garb it with some sort of armor with 0 ACP or just bracers of armor

it starts with 21 STR, I can give it a magic item (+6) and it gets another +6 from being a high level animal companion and 3 more from gaining 12 hitdice for a respectable 36 STR bodyguard

[Rebel7284]

The celestial template in the SRD has the following text:


Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes.

Also, it's unclear if gaining 12 HD also gives you the automatic +1 to a stat 3 times or if the rules for Animal Companion override that. With that said, Spiked Chain/Martial Study types of feats seem helpful if you want it to keep being a tank.

[Soranar]

The celestial template in the SRD has the following text:



Also, it's unclear if gaining 12 HD also gives you the automatic +1 to a stat 3 times or if the rules for Animal Companion override that. With that said, Spiked Chain/Martial Study types of feats seem helpful if you want it to keep being a tank.

I hadn't caught that part

so unless it gets full bab for the future hit dice (and d10 hitpoints) I'm not sure it's still worth it. might have to give it a familiar's bonuses through arcane hierophant instead

[Rebel7284]

Use Magic Device + Minor Schema of Divine Power? Kinda cheesy and setting specific in that exact format. With that said, if you google super-mount/uber-mount, there are a bunch of interesting builds that make your pet significantly more powerful than you, many start with an animal companion.

[Saintheart]

Vow of poverty for the lols?

[Soranar]

Vow of poverty for the lols?

vow of poverty means simple weapons only, so I could give it a large longspear , it could still threaten immediate squares with its natural weapons and it deals as much damage as a large spiked chain

that would cost 2 feats mind so I'd probably have to make him use his weapon without proficiency

[Biggus]

-full BAB (which gives him 4 attacks at maximum level)

How does it do that? You don't normally get extra natural attacks just by adding HD, am I missing something?



Also, it's unclear if gaining 12 HD also gives you the automatic +1 to a stat 3 times or if the rules for Animal Companion override that.

I've never heard of anyone suggest that before, what are you basing this on?

[Inevitability]

How does it do that? You don't normally get extra natural attacks just by adding HD, am I missing something?

DM ruled that apes can wield weapons, perhaps?

[Bucky]

DM ruled that apes can wield weapons, perhaps?

Why wouldn't they be able to wield weapons replacing their claw attacks as normal? They aren't proficient without spending a feat, but that doesn't outright prevent it.

[Soranar]

How does it do that? You don't normally get extra natural attacks just by adding HD, am I missing something?



I've never heard of anyone suggest that before, what are you basing this on?

An intelligent ape (in this case INT 3) can use weapons, even without proficiency that's just a -4 to hit, it's not a dealbreaker. If it was just an animal with 2 INT, that'd be harder to justify though monkeys and apes have been seen using branches as clubs in the wild.

And if you use a weapon you get iteratives attacks, which is why it's better than natural attacks

[Saintheart]

An intelligent ape (in this case INT 3) can use weapons, even without proficiency that's just a -4 to hit, it's not a dealbreaker. If it was just an animal with 2 INT, that'd be harder to justify though monkeys and apes have been seen using branches as clubs in the wild.

And if you use a weapon you get iteratives attacks, which is why it's better than natural attacks

I get the reasoning. The assumption is that the creature gets 3 iterative attacks at level 20 from the druid's BAB because the Animal Companion gets BAB of the druid's level, and then one natural attack as a secondary. Thus, 4 attacks. Do we want to kick that one around a bit? As in - is there a rule anywhere that says you have to be proficient with a manufactured weapon to get iteratives out of it?

For me, the only caution I'd have is that a DM could read Exalted Companion to mean you only get a celestial companion from the list the feat provides, which doesn't include apes. But that's an argument on that feat's wording, not on this question.


EDIT: In fact, yeah, this is a bit messy because of Exalted Companion to me. I don't have a lot of XP in playing druids, but the problem to me is that Magical Beasts have better BAB advancement than Animals do, and Exalted Companion seems to suggest the companion is a Magical Beast "but gets whatever abilities the Animal Companion gets", paraphrasing it. So does its BAB shrink back to that of a Druid, or does it retain Magical Beast BAB?

[daremetoidareyo]

Throb ammunition like splash weapon doesn’t do the whole proficiency issue, and it would key off of bab. Flask monkey?

[Soranar]

Ok so, to bypass the BAB conundrum and maximize the ape's skills, let's just thrown in arcane hierophant in there

A druid 4, duskblade 1, Arcane hierophant x

to qualify to arcane hierophant I'll be using extend spell + versatile spellcaster, since you can use two level 1 spellslots to cast an extended level 2 spell, and duskblade gives you full BAB, you qualify by level 5

I still take natural bond eventually

Now the ape gets my BAB or his, whatever is higher but I can also take arcane disciple to get divine power on my duskblade spell list so both get full BAB anyway or just use a divine staff of war to cast the spell as a druid

Just to keep to the ape theme the druid is probably going to wildshape into a legendary ape to fight

I don't like the idea of a flask monkey since you waste the ape's impressive STR score with flasks

[Inevitability]

Ok so, to bypass the BAB conundrum and maximize the ape's skills, let's just thrown in arcane hierophant in there

A druid 4, duskblade 1, Arcane hierophant x

to qualify to arcane hierophant I'll be using extend spell + versatile spellcaster, since you can use two level 1 spellslots to cast an extended level 2 spell, and duskblade gives you full BAB, you qualify by level 5

I still take natural bond eventually

Now the ape gets my BAB or his, whatever is higher but I can also take arcane disciple to get divine power on my duskblade spell list so both get full BAB anyway or just use a divine staff of war to cast the spell as a druid

Just to keep to the ape theme the druid is probably going to wildshape into a legendary ape to fight

I don't like the idea of a flask monkey since you waste the ape's impressive STR score with flasks

Ask your DM if you can be a duskblade who then enters druid and use Precocious Apprentice to qualify, which saves you a feat. Sanctum Spell is also commonly used for that purpose.