Tiering Universes

[Quertus]

So, I've decided to make my own Tier list. This one is to measure entire universes. Here goes.

Long ago, I made a thread about comparing universes; in particular, how they'd handle trying to eliminate one another. It seems that the big things people called out were the ability to engage in Time wars, and the ability to destroy on a massive scale, and the resistance to those attacks. With that as the basis, here is my first stab at a Universe Tier List.

Tier 1 - able to both engage in and defend against Time-based attacks. Tier 1 realities can destroy most other universes before they even exist, with little fear of being destroyed in kind. Example: Marvel.

Tier 2 - able to engage in Time-based attacks, or somehow resistant to such attacks, but not both. Can stymie Tier 1 universes' attacks, and/or destroy lower-tiered universes. Example: DC.

Tier 3 - Able to destroy at least entire planets in a single attack, and possesses defense against at least some such mass-attacks. Example: Babylon 5?

Tier 4 - Able to destroy at least entire planets in a single attack, or possesses defense against a significant number of such mass attacks. Example: Star Wars.

Tier 5 - Has to engage with "boots on the ground", but can destroy or protect whole cities. Example: modern-Earth-based RPGs.

Tier 6 - Has to engage with "boots on the ground", but is not particularly adept at doing so, lacking mass attack or defense abilities. Example: Conan.

Problems/Caveats: to avoid Multiverser-style debates wrt what real-world religions' deities could do, only "PC-class beings" are allowed to participate; thus, if you can only play "humans" in a WW2 simulator RPG, only "humans" (all however-many-billion, not just the number of soldiers in the RPG) are allowed to participate. Deities in Scion (where you play gods) or D&D (where PCs can ascend to deity rank) can participate; deities in a WW2 simulation cannot (unless that simulation lets the players play deities manipulating the outcome of the war or something... at which point they're no longer "real world deities", but that system's (statted) deities.).

Any glaring flaws in the overall system, or should I begin posting realities, what Tier I consider them, and my reasons for that ranking, for people to disagree with?

[Saintheart]

I wonder whether the gap between Tier 2 and Tier 3 is too wide. Thinking here of Iain Banks' Culture novels, where the scale and energy usage is massive beyond obliterating single planets but they can't carry out chronometric warfare.

[NichG]

Tier 0 - concept manipulation, parallel reality access, etc stuff. Chronicles of Amber and Nobilis for example. Maybe Exalted (wyld only though...). Some stuff in Nasuverse.

Stuff like 'this spear defines as inescapable fate that its target will not live past the next minute', 'you want to use time travel against me? I'll change your physics to unmake the concept of causality', etc.

[Crake]

Problems/Caveats: to avoid Multiverser-style debates wrt what real-world religions' deities could do, only "PC-class beings" are allowed to participate; thus, if you can only play "humans" in a WW2 simulator RPG, only "humans" (all however-many-billion, not just the number of soldiers in the RPG) are allowed to participate. Deities in Scion (where you play gods) or D&D (where PCs can ascend to deity rank) can participate; deities in a WW2 simulation cannot (unless that simulation lets the players play deities manipulating the outcome of the war or something... at which point they're no longer "real world deities", but that system's (statted) deities.).

How are you judging “PC-class” in non-game universes like comics or movies? What if the fundamental principles of a universe simply prohibit time-based shenannigans due to the interference of an overdeity?

Would that inherently make the universe tier 2 due to its resistance to time based attacks, even if they lack world destroying capabilities?

[Mechalich]

The problem here is that while more or less conventional uses of energy can be measured and compared even at absurdly high levels - the Kardashev Scale (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale) already does this - it's much more difficult, if not completely impossible, to compare 'physics-breaking BS' type abilities of which Time Travel is the most obvious, but, as NichG notes, decidedly not the only example, that function almost entirely by authorial fiat and may have no in-universe justification.

And, notably, these things are not correlated at all, which kind of renders the entire exercise pointless.

[ahyangyi]

There seems to be lots of assumptions here, such as "planets exist (i.e. it's not turtles all the way down)" and "universes from different works can interact in the way described in one of the works".

The latter is a big assumption. In our real world, "universe" means "everything in the world", but when you tier two universes, there must be two interacting universes, and suddenly both lose the common definition.

[Batcathat]

The somewhat inconsistent tech level of some universes make them hard to tier and compare to others, I think. For example, the Marvel universe is mostly like our own in terms of society and technology, but (mostly thanks to individual geniuses like Reed Richards or Tony Stark) they also have technology far beyond anything in reality, like time travel or destroying universes. Meanwhile, you have something like the Culture, where the general level of technology and power is far above anything in real life, but the lack of something like universe destroying tech mean they rank further down than Marvel.

EDIT: Granted, the above mostly applies to the Earth part of the Marvel universe, but it does feel like the power level of alien civilisations are also lower than the Culture's. Of course, then you have stuff like Beyonders. So yeah, kind of all over the place.

[ahyangyi]

My problem is more about what exactly is a "universe" and what exactly is a "plane".

Especially in some works there's no distinction. For example, in MtG the Planeswalker use planeswalking to traverse the multiverse, and, of course, the "multiverse" is a word to mean "multiple universes".

If we accept that, then low level D&D is surprisingly universe-destructive because the hapless adventurer might try to put the bag of holding in the handy haversack. But that extradimensional space inside the handy haversack contains no planets.

[Kurald Galain]

I would love to point out the VS Battles Wiki (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Verses) that has put a large amount of effort into quantifying 'verses.

[Vahnavoi]

You cannot accurately rank universes based on just valid player character options. For example, a Conan roleplaying game might not allow a player to play anything beyond a human, but the setting unquestionably includes immortal sorcerers, space aliens, and great old ones. Likewise, Call of Cthulhu centers around mortal investigators, but includes entitities such as Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth that render the existence of humanity moot, and that is the point. In Lamentations of the Flame Princess, the player characters start at around the same or lower ability than level 1 Basic D&D characters, but depending on the adventure, even without advancing in character levels, may encounter entitities that can travel through time and other universes, or find items that threaten universal destruction if assembled. In Praedor, the entire setting was shaped by biologically immortal sorcerer kings, the ruins beyond the border they created are the result of a multiversal collapse, and there are still sorcerers around with their immortality elixirs and planar gates, but they are explicitly banned as player characters.

So on and so forth.

Correct comparison between universes starts with comparing their respective cosmologies and metaphysics. If these are sufficiently distant, there is no sense in even trying to rank them. For example, you cannot say anything meaningful about how time travel would work across two settings with fundamentally incompatible notions of time.

With that said, there are already existing ranking systems. For AD&D, there was Manual of Planes which, in addition to explaining various weird planar traits, gave each universe a physics number and a magic number. The point with that system was that effects from universes with wildly different physics or magic numbers don't cross over. Now, obviously, there are no official numbers for non-D&D settings, but you can eyeball them based on comparison with the given scale. For example, you can eyeball Shclock Mercenary and Star Wars have similar physics numbers, because they both involve galaxy-spanning space opera settings, but Star Wars has a higher magic number, because it posits the existence of the Force, which has no equal in Schlock Mercenary. Then, once you've eliminated the Force and the Jedi as things that would cross over, you can use the Kardashev scale, above, to compare various speculative technologies between the settings. So on and so forth.

[Crake]

My problem is more about what exactly is a "universe" and what exactly is a "plane".

Especially in some works there's no distinction. For example, in MtG the Planeswalker use planeswalking to traverse the multiverse, and, of course, the "multiverse" is a word to mean "multiple universes".

If we accept that, then low level D&D is surprisingly universe-destructive because the hapless adventurer might try to put the bag of holding in the handy haversack. But that extradimensional space inside the handy haversack contains no planets.

Even the "universes" described in the OP have multiverses within them, so I think we can instead use the concept of a narrative omniverse, which is to say, all existences covered by any particular intellectual property.

[Quertus]

Too many posts to reply to all at once. I’ll start here.


I would love to point out the VS Battles Wiki (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Verses) that has put a large amount of effort into quantifying 'verses.

Yeah, color me unimpressed. A WoD Mage can travel back in time, and destroy an opposing civilization before its ancestors crawl out of the primordial ooze, yet VS Battles Wiki rates them as Tier 7, citing that “The introduction of Magick, on the other hand, raises the verse's standing to Tier 7, with master Mages being able to conjure tornadoes and hurricanes and alter weather patterns over a span of miles”.

My rather limited experience with the site suggests that the writers are, at best, clueless about the capabilities of the IPs they describe (a trait, you’ll note, I share, and share to a hopefully, if not Lesser, then to a more self-aware degree); at worst, they’re tactically strategically inept, incapable of comprehension how to wage optimized universe v universe war.

As such, I intend, with much less effort, and with the Playground’s help, to give a much more accurate tiering of universes than that site.


You cannot accurately rank universes based on just valid player character options.

Call of Cthulhu

So on and so forth.

I mean… I’m open to alternatives.

Here’s the catch (and it’s a big one): the rules have to inherently not break board policy about religion.

I don’t want people to rate the universe of a WW2 Simulation RPG vastly differently based on their personal religious beliefs.

Heck, WoD explicitly contains at least one omnipotent deity (EDIT: and at least 4 functionally if not actually omnipotent beings), yet their universe is rated on VS Battles Wiki as Tier 7, so I’m certainly not any more wrong than the next best option in that regard.

Anyway, if you’ve got a clear-cut alternative that will allow meaningful comparisons to be made, and not violate Playground policies on discussing religions, let me know.

Hmmm.. perhaps instead of “PC-class”, we could use “statted-class only, no infinite, no arbitrary”? So Flamsterd wouldn’t get to participate for the D&D/FR universe any more than the Lady of Pain? It’s worth a thought, I guess.


Correct comparison between universes starts with comparing their respective cosmologies and metaphysics. If these are sufficiently distant, there is no sense in even trying to rank them. For example, you cannot say anything meaningful about how time travel would work across two settings with fundamentally incompatible notions of time.

It’s really hard to reply to this with a straight face without letting the cat out of the bag, but… I’m not doing that. I’m not comparing universes. I’m merely putting them into a Tier. Asking, on their own merits, what Tier they rate.


With that said, there are already existing ranking systems. For AD&D, there was Manual of Planes which, in addition to explaining various weird planar traits, gave each universe a physics number and a magic number. The point with that system was that effects from universes with wildly different physics or magic numbers don't cross over.

Citation needed. If I recall correctly, said book (or perhaps High Level Campaigns?) explicitly had rules for how such effects crossed over - which will be very important to our Tier ratings later, btw.

[Quertus]

Tier 0 - concept manipulation, parallel reality access, etc stuff. Chronicles of Amber and Nobilis for example. Maybe Exalted (wyld only though...). Some stuff in Nasuverse.

Stuff like 'this spear defines as inescapable fate that its target will not live past the next minute', 'you want to use time travel against me? I'll change your physics to unmake the concept of causality', etc.

What good is “won’t live past the next minute” against a real Chronomancer, who never lets Time advance? Or who retroactively erased your parents (or the first life to crawl out of your primordial ooze or whatever) to prevent the attack?

Yes, the ability to Sense and react to being retroactively erased is huge - it’s the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2.

So… everything you’ve described is, at best, Tier 1 material afaict. You’re just demonstrating what Tier 1 means.

That said… I was viewing “changing physics” more as a Tier 3-4 Power, able to (effectively) destroy whole universes; it’s the ability to Sense and react to a Time-based attack that would bump that power past Tier 3.


How are you judging “PC-class” in non-game universes like comics or movies? What if the fundamental principles of a universe simply prohibit time-based shenannigans due to the interference of an overdeity?

Would that inherently make the universe tier 2 due to its resistance to time based attacks, even if they lack world destroying capabilities?

Really good questions. Let’s break that down.



How are you judging “PC-class” in non-game universes like comics or movies?

I would really love to just reply, “I’m not”. That is, there’s an RPG for all of these universes (even if it’s one I’ve made myself / used an existing RPG to play in that universe).

However, that would feel like a lie. Because a lot of these questions aren’t answered by the RPG nearly as well as they are by the other media. So, yes, for IP like Marvel or Star Trek, a lot of my knowledge comes from comics and shows and movies.

But… it doesn’t matter much, because “has ability to travel through time? Has ability to destroy planets in one attack?” aren’t exactly difficult to adjudicate; the only question is, if the RPG lets you play X, is this power held by an X? And even that’s pretty easy to answer most of the time.

Doubtless there could be an IP where this is actually a problem, but we’ll address it for that particular case if it comes up.



What if the fundamental principles of a universe simply prohibit time-based shenannigans due to the interference of an overdeity?

That universe is sad panda, unless said overdeity is a PC. See also my previous post for bits related to board policy.



Would that inherently make the universe tier 2 due to its resistance to time based attacks, even if they lack world destroying capabilities?

A universe whose physics explicitly made them immune to Time attacks (Marvel) is automatically Tier 2, regardless of their offensive ability, yes. They would certainly be at the low end of Tier 2 if they lacked significant offensive ability.


function almost entirely by authorial fiat and may have no in-universe justification.

This is potentially a problem. A number of universes may receive a “disqualified - incoherent” rating if no one can provide a consistent explanation for their physics. However, the only require M-theory level of consistency, not one simple answer consistency, and it only matters for inconsistencies that make it impossible to evaluate their Tier.


And, notably, these things are not correlated at all, which kind of renders the entire exercise pointless.

Eh? Care to expand on what you mean by this?

[Quertus]

There seems to be lots of assumptions here, such as "planets exist (i.e. it's not turtles all the way down)" and "universes from different works can interact in the way described in one of the works".

The latter is a big assumption. In our real world, "universe" means "everything in the world", but when you tier two universes, there must be two interacting universes, and suddenly both lose the common definition.

Well, first off, I’m not having the universes interact - I’m merely Tiering them. Second, if being turtles all the way down provides protection against things from the Deathstar to beings throwing galaxies at the universe, then it’ll matter, and should be taken into account wrt a “turtles all the way down” universe’s Tier.


The somewhat inconsistent tech level of some universes make them hard to tier and compare to others, I think. For example, the Marvel universe is mostly like our own in terms of society and technology, but (mostly thanks to individual geniuses like Reed Richards or Tony Stark) they also have technology far beyond anything in reality, like time travel or destroying universes. Meanwhile, you have something like the Culture, where the general level of technology and power is far above anything in real life, but the lack of something like universe destroying tech mean they rank further down than Marvel.

If the entirety of the universe went to war, could the Culture (whatever that is - I’m 100% unfamiliar) be able to handle someone going back in time, and throwing their home planet into their sun before life developed? If not, Marvel obviously owns the Culture. The tech level used by the common man matters exactly 0 to how this war would turn out.

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough in the OP just what Tier means.


EDIT: Granted, the above mostly applies to the Earth part of the Marvel universe, but it does feel like the power level of alien civilisations are also lower than the Culture's.

There are multiple Marvel races capable of creating Cosmic Cubes. I don’t know the Culture, but I doubt they can compare.


Of course, then you have stuff like Beyonders. So yeah, kind of all over the place.

The Beyonder is disqualified from participating for so many reasons it’s not funny. At least in faserip, he’s not PC class, his RPG stats fail the “no infinite, no arbitrary” clause that may be added, and, perhaps most of all, as his name hints, he’s from Beyond the Marvel universe. To name a few.


My problem is more about what exactly is a "universe" and what exactly is a "plane".

Especially in some works there's no distinction. For example, in MtG the Planeswalker use planeswalking to traverse the multiverse, and, of course, the "multiverse" is a word to mean "multiple universes".

If we accept that, then low level D&D is surprisingly universe-destructive because the hapless adventurer might try to put the bag of holding in the handy haversack. But that extradimensional space inside the handy haversack contains no planets.

Oh, that’s an unexpected wrinkle. Yeah, an IP that spans multiple universes? Well, as this is a “universe vs universe” fight that universes are being tiered for, only a single one of their universes gets to participate at a time. Unless anyone finds cause to claim that the denizens are idiots, we’ll take their word for what’s a universe and what’s a plane within the same universe.

So MtG has multiple universes that compete separately, whereas D&D portable holes and bags of holding are in the same universe.

EDIT:
Even the "universes" described in the OP have multiverses within them, so I think we can instead use the concept of a narrative omniverse, which is to say, all existences covered by any particular intellectual property.
Dagnabbit, I missed this! Er… is anything in the OP wrong if measuring only the capabilities of one of their universes? Because that was my intent.

[ahyangyi]

Unless anyone finds cause to claim that the denizens are idiots, we’ll take their word for what’s a universe and what’s a plane within the same universe.

So MtG has multiple universes that compete separately, whereas D&D portable holes and bags of holding are in the same universe.

Yep, that's a nice definition, and actually solves my problems.

[Batcathat]

If the entirety of the universe went to war, could the Culture (whatever that is - I’m 100% unfamiliar) be able to handle someone going back in time, and throwing their home planet into their sun before life developed? If not, Marvel obviously owns the Culture. The tech level used by the common man matters exactly 0 to how this war would turn out.

Fair enough, time travel where you can actually change the past (so no stable time loops or creating alternate universes when you travel) is basically impossible to beat (though whether Marvel time travel actually works like that seems to be rather inconsistent).

[Vahnavoi]

@Quertus: tiers are fundamentally comparative rankings and rely on finding common metrics between the things being tiered, so what you said doesn't make the slightest lick of sense.

As for Manual of Planes, just get your hand on the book. The short of it that technological devices stop working in worlds with diverging physical scores and magic (and other supernatural things) stops working in world with too low of a magic score. Any D&D specific bypasses cannot be assumed to exist in non-D&D settings, and as consequence, effects based on incompatible cosmologies do not cross over.

[Lord Raziere]

there is no evidence for any universes power level having anything to with anothers. one could become an omnipotent god in one universe, go over to the next and their omnipotence can be just as greatt as a common rat, and a common rat in one universe might go somewhere and find themselves an omnipotent god. to even assume power scales are consistent across universes to impose your rules that do not exist in either universe.

[MonochromeTiger]

So, I've decided to make my own Tier list. This one is to measure entire universes. Here goes.

So, quick question just to start. Why? What actual point is there in "Universe Tiers" being established and how does it help running RPGs?


Long ago, I made a thread about comparing universes; in particular, how they'd handle trying to eliminate one another. It seems that the big things people called out were the ability to engage in Time wars, and the ability to destroy on a massive scale, and the resistance to those attacks. With that as the basis, here is my first stab at a Universe Tier List.

Pretty easy to point out that there's way more issues with the concept than just can they spam time travel cheese.

For one you'd need to establish that they have any way of actually accessing another universe. After that you'd need to establish both a motive and a method, for instance the Empire from Star Wars isn't exactly going to pull out the Death Star for every single enemy. Even if they do they aren't suddenly getting rid of all of their glaring flaws and incompetence to guarantee a win against supposedly weaker enemies that punch above their weight. Next you have to consider the very important question of if things would even work and interact the same between different universes. Star Wars as an example again, their long range travel relies on Hyperspace which is a different dimension/plane and further they rely on Hyperspace lanes which are established routes in Hyperspace, go into another universe and you have no established Hyperspace lanes and may not even have Hyperspace at all. Then after all of that you'd need to account for the occasional exceptions to the general power on display in that universe and also the much harder to account for fact that almost no fictional universe is completely consistent in how powerful it's shown to be.


Tier 1 - able to both engage in and defend against Time-based attacks. Tier 1 realities can destroy most other universes before they even exist, with little fear of being destroyed in kind. Example: Marvel.

And yet they still routinely rely on methods that are distinctly not based in time travel for their unending tide of mundane and fantastical disasters.


Tier 2 - able to engage in Time-based attacks, or somehow resistant to such attacks, but not both. Can stymie Tier 1 universes' attacks, and/or destroy lower-tiered universes. Example: DC.

See my issue with "Tier 1." The presence of time travel and entities claiming to be able to destroy universes is that the few times these settings are shown to use them in any way you've almost always got some mitigating circumstance or reason it didn't work out how you expect. There's almost always something that keeps them from actually regularly using the supposed instant win button to solve their problems and that probably wouldn't stop being the case just because they got a neighbor. Then you've got to wonder if their time travel will even do anything for an entirely different universe or if they'd even keep the power to use it in that other universe.


Tier 3 - Able to destroy at least entire planets in a single attack, and possesses defense against at least some such mass-attacks. Example: Babylon 5?
You'd also need the willingness to do so and enough access to it to actually spam it against an opponent, neither of which is very common in these universes where conflicts routinely come down to needing in person battles instead of jumping around space blowing up every world the opponent lives on.


Tier 4 - Able to destroy at least entire planets in a single attack, or possesses defense against a significant number of such mass attacks. Example: Star Wars.

See issue with "Tier 3." Then consider that both the destruction of a world in a single attack and the defense against such can be slightly nebulous and would arguably cause some contradictions. Are we talking complete destruction with nothing left? Because if so Star Wars doesn't actually qualify. Are we talking blowing planets to pieces? Do you think wiping all life from the planet and causing lasting structural changes to its surface counts? Then the defense against that, you give Star Wars as the example of the tier but the entire reason the Death Star and other planet killing weapons in Star Wars are such a big deal is they didn't actually have a defense that worked against them and their only option was to try attacking the weapon that did it.


Tier 5 - Has to engage with "boots on the ground", but can destroy or protect whole cities. Example: modern-Earth-based RPGs.

There's a slight issue with "must have boots on the ground" as being a low end of power and that's the fact that all of the higher tiers also make constant use of ground combat despite the big flashy answers they supposedly have to invalidate it. Most universes in fiction acknowledge on some level that just going around spamming their big planet destroying/reality rewriting attacks isn't a practical solution for them and in all likelihood has something that makes it risky or problematic for them as much as their enemies.


Tier 6 - Has to engage with "boots on the ground", but is not particularly adept at doing so, lacking mass attack or defense abilities. Example: Conan.

Others point out the issues with this one where the perspective we focus on isn't the same as the upper bounds of the universe's capabilities.


Problems/Caveats: to avoid Multiverser-style debates wrt what real-world religions' deities could do, only "PC-class beings" are allowed to participate; thus, if you can only play "humans" in a WW2 simulator RPG, only "humans" (all however-many-billion, not just the number of soldiers in the RPG) are allowed to participate. Deities in Scion (where you play gods) or D&D (where PCs can ascend to deity rank) can participate; deities in a WW2 simulation cannot (unless that simulation lets the players play deities manipulating the outcome of the war or something... at which point they're no longer "real world deities", but that system's (statted) deities.).

So you want to give tiers for the power of a universe as a whole including nebulous claims of wiping out entire other universes but at the same time you want to remove the parts of those universes that aren't player character friendly from the equation turning the entire thing from a representation of what that universe actually has and can be pressed to use in its worst circumstances to "what can we do if really exploit the rules for this game." Sure. Then most RPGs where some spell casters rely on divine aid to prepare and cast spells are now useless and only a handful of arcane casters get beyond the point where they can be somewhat useful but a few guards can still kill them.

These universes don't really work if they're boiled down to just what's player accessible because player access to those things relies on the presence of the rest of the game to actually make it happen. If this is the universe include the universe. If this is "what can I do if I throw out the rules and just grab all the strongest sounding stuff" then say so at the start and acknowledge the whole premise has nothing to do with actual comparison of what's there and everything to do with what sounds stronger in a white room scenario.


Any glaring flaws in the overall system, or should I begin posting realities, what Tier I consider them, and my reasons for that ranking, for people to disagree with?

You're proposing a tiering system of something extremely subjective and inconsistent, even with guidelines and limits in place. Even sticking exclusively to the normal fantasy RPGs you're going to have people arguing for every tier on your list because it could theoretically be played to those levels of power and because no one is going to agree to set expectations.

[Vahnavoi]

@Quertus: also, the obvious alternative to tiering universes is to just tier valid player characters, without pretending you are tiering universes.

[Lord Raziere]

yeah like, then there is Jumpchain docs, the entire point of which is that a character travels between universes gaining power from them, and you can gain powers and perks from one universe and stack or combine them to use in the next universe you go to, and often have to fiat-protect the usefulness of this or that, with balance concerns rapidly being thrown out in favor of the jumpchain character working at all so that the stuff you get isn't rendered useless. like any crossover has some measure of narrative fiat protection to make sure this or that works a certain way, or else you run into a lot of potential inter-universe interaction problems and no one wants to tell the story of a cool power not working outside of its origin universe and what it means for characters who've relied on it so much.

[Cluedrew]

Fun story, the highest powered setting* I've ever written falls into tier 5 simply because planets do not exist in that setting so attacks and defences on such a scale do not exist because there is nothing to use them on.

* In terms of power regularly achieved. Other ones have higher peaks.
But actually I want to talk about something more fundamental here. What is this tier list actually trying to tier? Not in terms of universes, but in terms of the quality of them we are trying to discuss. I've got good/bad at time-travel/destroying planets/armies as the 6 tiers and I'm not entirely sure what that is supposed to mean. There is a rough sense of things getting bigger as the tiers progress but... its not very exact.

[Quertus]

@Quertus: also, the obvious alternative to tiering universes is to just tier valid player characters, without pretending you are tiering universes.

This is actually several good ideas pretending to just be one. So let's see to what extent I can address them all.

Yes, this thread does have some value in terms of setting the stage for comparing characters between universes. But that's just an added bonus. I am actually interested in universes, not just valid player characters, in this thread. Because Star Wars can field a planet-destroying Death Star, whereas a PC likely cannot. Many world leaders can issue a nuclear strike, whereas a PC in their worlds likely cannot. etc. But the beings with the power to do so are humans (or whatever), just like the PCs, so they're the same class of being, and part of this comparison.

So I'm trying to discuss the greatest abilities of the universe that can be discussed without having to deal with discussing real-world religions, and (hopefully) while minimizing the need to compare infinities / un-spec'd beings.


So, quick question just to start. Why? What actual point is there in "Universe Tiers" being established and how does it help running RPGs?

That's a very good question. And there's probably too many answers to that question for me to properly touch on them all. That said, it's the wrong question. I didn't create this thread for the explicit purpose of giving people experience in evaluating things across systems and realities. I didn't create this thread for the explicit purpose of helping people thing how to run a proper high-end war.

No, I created this thread out of the only thing that motivates me to push past the inertia of laziness and start something this big: spite. I'm tired of people talking about how OP D&D is, when so many universes are so much more OP. :smallannoyed: This thread is simply a clue-by-four to help people see that. :smallamused:

And I've got the added spite that the VS Battles Wiki seemingly has no clue about optimized universe vs universe warfare. :smallsigh:

That is the value I get out of the existence of this thread.


For one you'd need to establish that they have any way of actually accessing another universe. After that you'd need to establish both a motive and a method,

Star Wars as an example again, their long range travel relies on Hyperspace which is a different dimension/plane


you've got to wonder if their time travel will even do anything for an entirely different universe or if they'd even keep the power to use it in that other universe.


You'd also need the willingness to do so and enough access to it to actually spam it against an opponent,

For "normal" interactions between universes within an RPG, I'd completely agree with you here. However, these issues are hand-waved for the purposes of a Tier list, and for the specific context in which this list is being written.

Now, that context comes from the unlinked spawning thread(s), so I should probably have reiterated them; in short, this is optimized warfare between two universes that know that they are about to be in a death-match with another universe (but not which one), and where travel between the universes is "provided by the death match sponsor" so to speak. So, like the threads where a single D&D Wizard 20 and an entire nation's army are both Teleported to a new world.

ALSO, unless there is explicit reason why they wouldn't work (specific trumps general), all powers are assumed to work in all universes is an internet standard for such conversations. One, like you, I absolutely don't agree with in the context of RPGs, but IME most GMs run things that way at actual tables, so what can we do?

So, the fact that WoD and D&D and Multiverser have explicit rules for how things from another universe function in their universe gives them an advantage in such a competition, which potentially translates to bumping their Tiers; otherwise, all abilities are assumed to work in all universes as a general rule.

(yes, it's dumb, but it's the internet - what can you expect? That said, if we "finish" this thread, perhaps we can create an improved Tier list, that takes into account just how "fragile" each power is, what external factors it requires in order to work. But let's finish the easier job first, eh?)


Then the defense against that, you give Star Wars as the example of the tier but the entire reason the Death Star and other planet killing weapons in Star Wars are such a big deal is they didn't actually have a defense that worked against them and their only option was to try attacking the weapon that did it.

Um... that's why Star Wars was Tier 4, yeah: it has planet-destroying tech, but no real defense against firepower of that magnitude. If it could just teleport its galaxy far, far away when you throw another galaxy at them, they'd bump up to Tier 3.


So you want to give tiers for the power of a universe as a whole including nebulous claims of wiping out entire other universes but at the same time you want to remove the parts of those universes that aren't player character friendly from the equation turning the entire thing from a representation of what that universe actually has and can be pressed to use in its worst circumstances to "what can we do if really exploit the rules for this game." Sure. Then most RPGs where some spell casters rely on divine aid to prepare and cast spells are now useless and only a handful of arcane casters get beyond the point where they can be somewhat useful but a few guards can still kill them.

Want? No, I wouldn't say "want". But board policy and common sense say that comparing the omnipotent creators of every universe would not be fruitful, and since many/most, like from a WW2 simulator, are undiscussed and simply assumed from real-world religions, we couldn't really discuss them here, even if we wanted to.

Feel free to propose an alternative you consider more fair than my "PC-class beings".


Then most RPGs where some spell casters rely on divine aid to prepare and cast spells are now useless

Let's ignore asking whether that's true or not for a moment. Instead, let me simply ask this: Are there any universes where their Tier will change based on the truth or falsehood of this statement?


You're proposing a tiering system of something extremely subjective and inconsistent, even with guidelines and limits in place.

Has ability to defeat universe before battle starts yes/no? Has ability to defeat at least some universes (those where sentience / combatants are limited to a single planet) in a single attack yes/no? Has ability to defend against at least some forms of the above yes/no?

Please explain how this is subjective or inconsistent.


Even sticking exclusively to the normal fantasy RPGs you're going to have people arguing for every tier on your list because it could theoretically be played to those levels of power and because no one is going to agree to set expectations.

Huh? I'm not following you here.

The question is, what's the most optimized universe vs universe war that all valid* participants from the universe could manage. Can they retroactively destroy other universes before the combat begins? Can they destroy other universes in a single attack? Can they defend against these things?

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I'm not seeing much room to argue about such things in a valid way outside issues of ignorance of the IP. I expect I'll be putting my ignorance on display a lot with my initial Tierings. :smallredface::smallbiggrin: Which I'm waiting to start in on until, you know, questions about the validity of "PC-classed beings" is ironed out, or a few days pass and I get bored, whichever comes first. :smallwink:

* currently "PC-class beings"; we'll see if that definition changes.

[SimonMoon6]

I am very unsure why Marvel is rated a tier higher than DC at time travel stuff.

Also, I am unsure why "Marvel" is treated as if it is only one universe. And why is "DC" treated as only one universe.

For DC alone, there is "Pre-Crisis DC comics multiverse", "Post-Crisis but pre-Flashpoint DC comics universe", "post-Flashpoint pre-Rebirth DC comics", "post Rebirth DC comics", "DC TV shows", and "DC movies" at the very least. And each one is completely different. Pre-Crisis DC comics had a hard rule that time travel could not change history (except when they forgot and they could do it anyway); basically, Superman's inherent ability to time travel could not change history, but someone like Per Degaton could do so easily. During Crisis on Infinite Earths, history was radically altered permanently, after which history (and future history) was supposedly fixed and unchangeable. And after Flashpoint history was easily changed by people like Reverse Flash (messing with Barry Allen) and Doctor Manhattan (who apparently was behind all the changes that happened to Superman's often-rebooted history).

Marvel used to have the rule that time travel could not change history; it would only create another parallel universe. I think that changed around the time of Age of Ultron and possibly the second series to call itself "Secret Wars" (not to be confused with Secret Wars II). Maybe even as far back as Age of Apocalypse? I dunno. But time travel for a long time in the classic Marvel Universe could NEVER change history. So, Marvel probably needs to be divided into "classic Marvel", "post-second-Secret-Wars Marvel," and "Marvel Cinematic Universe". The Marvel movies clearly have their own time travel rules which are similar to but different from the comics.

But I think Doctor Manhattan's casual ability to rewrite all of history is pretty significant, much less Per Degaton (when he's not busy washing those test tubes).

And if you're worried that Marvel has a race that can create Cosmic Cubes, DC has a race (the Controllers) that can create Miracle Machines (and Sun-Eaters, but they're only catastrophic to an area of space, not time).

[Cluedrew]

No, I created this thread out of the only thing that motivates me to push past the inertia of laziness and start something this big: spite. I'm tired of people talking about how OP D&D is, when so many universes are so much more OP. :smallannoyed: This thread is simply a clue-by-four to help people see that. :smallamused:Well, by definition if they are looking for a lower power level than D&D, than D&D is overpowered for them. The existence of even more overpowered settings doesn't actually change that.

Which is not to say that you have to stop, but I don't think you are going to win that argument. Also is that what we are trying to measure here? Overall power level of setting? Average power level of PC-like character?

[Vahnavoi]

@Quertus: no, you aren't interested in universes.

You are interested in a subset of characters which are either valid player characters, or non-player characters in the same class of beings, plus the equipment and strategies available to such characters.

Focusing on this subset of characters achieves what you actually want to achieve, save for the bothersome claim of comparing universes instead of characters.

You may need to actually compare universes anyway when trying to compare characters that work on radically dfferent premises, which goes back to what I already said.

Also, here's a thing you don't want to hear, but what you must understand, since you keep ramming your head against it: fictional universes not made on these boards, do not obey board rules, and it is not given you can have an intelligent discussion about them here. Even finer details of the original AD&D Great Wheel cosmology or the first printing of Deities & Demigods are not board safe. What you want is akin to wanting to try kickboxing with your feet chained together and hands behind your back. As anybody could tell you, that can't lead to high quality kickboxing. Likewise your restrictions cannot lead to a good quality tier list.

[Anymage]

If you wanted to compare the world of Watchmen to the world of Star Trek, would you compare Dr. Manhattan vs. Q or would you compare the federation vs. everybody except for Manhattan? Because extremely powerful outliers do warp the question, and characters with conceptual abilities or unlimited time powers tend to be extremely powerful outliers by definition.

Discussing median power levels of various universes might be interesting, but your first and second tiers are going to be hard to square with any median measurements.

[MonochromeTiger]

This is actually several good ideas pretending to just be one. So let's see to what extent I can address them all.

Yes, this thread does have some value in terms of setting the stage for comparing characters between universes.

Subjective.


But that's just an added bonus. I am actually interested in universes, not just valid player characters, in this thread.

But you've requested an approach which skips over most of those universes to get down to an arbitrary restriction of "player characters." If you're interested in the thing as a whole do the thing as a whole, don't say you're interested in it then only allow a tiny part of it.


Because Star Wars can field a planet-destroying Death Star, whereas a PC likely cannot. Many world leaders can issue a nuclear strike, whereas a PC in their worlds likely cannot. etc. But the beings with the power to do so are humans (or whatever), just like the PCs, so they're the same class of being, and part of this comparison.

But you've actively removed the upper ends of these universes which in itself is putting them at less than your stated goal of "optimized universe vs universe warfare."


So I'm trying to discuss the greatest abilities of the universe that can be discussed without having to deal with discussing real-world religions, and (hopefully) while minimizing the need to compare infinities / un-spec'd beings.

I don't see how any of this involves the real-worlds religion part. "Comparing infinities" you can just avoid by pointing out that infinite power is impossible to prove and just go based off what's actually shown by abilities or saying no informed abilities or vague claims allowed as evidence.


That's a very good question. And there's probably too many answers to that question for me to properly touch on them all. That said, it's the wrong question. I didn't create this thread for the explicit purpose of giving people experience in evaluating things across systems and realities. I didn't create this thread for the explicit purpose of helping people thing how to run a proper high-end war.

No, I created this thread out of the only thing that motivates me to push past the inertia of laziness and start something this big: spite. I'm tired of people talking about how OP D&D is, when so many universes are so much more OP. :smallannoyed: This thread is simply a clue-by-four to help people see that. :smallamused:

And I've got the added spite that the VS Battles Wiki seemingly has no clue about optimized universe vs universe warfare. :smallsigh:

So you created the thread because you thought someone was wrong on the internet and instead of bringing your disagreement up to them you brought it to a place people might agree with you. Lets ignore for a moment that "optimized universe vs universe warfare" is, and always has been, code for people bashing their toys together on the internet and saying the side they like won while casually ignoring important details. There's still tons of other places than this VS Battles Wiki you're talking about that have been doing this for years, decades even, and they still can't consistently agree on anything where you're seeming to believe you can get it right here.


Now, that context comes from the unlinked spawning thread(s), so I should probably have reiterated them; in short, this is optimized warfare between two universes that know that they are about to be in a death-match with another universe (but not which one), and where travel between the universes is "provided by the death match sponsor" so to speak. So, like the threads where a single D&D Wizard 20 and an entire nation's army are both Teleported to a new world.

So standard "everybody gets prep time so the side I think I can optimize more and magically get to ignore all their personal limitations and reasons they don't use certain abilities and resources wins" debate. Understood.


ALSO, unless there is explicit reason why they wouldn't work (specific trumps general), all powers are assumed to work in all universes is an internet standard for such conversations. One, like you, I absolutely don't agree with in the context of RPGs, but IME most GMs run things that way at actual tables, so what can we do?

So, the fact that WoD and D&D and Multiverser have explicit rules for how things from another universe function in their universe gives them an advantage in such a competition, which potentially translates to bumping their Tiers; otherwise, all abilities are assumed to work in all universes as a general rule.

(yes, it's dumb, but it's the internet - what can you expect? That said, if we "finish" this thread, perhaps we can create an improved Tier list, that takes into account just how "fragile" each power is, what external factors it requires in order to work. But let's finish the easier job first, eh?)

So you acknowledge that something is dumb. You acknowledge that the entire reason you're making this thread is because you disagree with another website's conclusions and want to give your own version. You still want to use the things you consider dumb that are casually accepted conceits of those websites and likely contribute to why they believe differently than you on the conclusions.

Sure, this is already a case of somebody wrong on the internet and not wanting to use any of the many other places these kinds of arguments happen, guess it can't be made any worse by doubling down on things that might lead to one side or another having arbitrary advantages because their setting was actually built with multiversal travel and interaction in mind.


Feel free to propose an alternative you consider more fair than my "PC-class beings".

Considering your issue with including things, just say everything except the things we can't actually determine the upper end of power on and save yourself time.



Let's ignore asking whether that's true or not for a moment. Instead, let me simply ask this: Are there any universes where their Tier will change based on the truth or falsehood of this statement?

You're genuinely asking if there are settings where losing access to a bunch of magic, something that in some settings gets up to the range of wiping cities off the map and permanently scarring continents or rewriting reality, might lower their spot on these arbitrary tiers? Yes, it very well might.


Has ability to defeat universe before battle starts yes/no?

"Can time travel" and "can use time travel to destroy another universe or civilization" are different things. Other things that aren't the same as having access to time travel: "can do so without consequences", "can cause lasting changes such as actually altering their timeline instead of just splitting it and living in the new one while the old one continues", and "can do so quickly and easily."


Has ability to defeat at least some universes (those where sentience / combatants are limited to a single planet) in a single attack yes/no?

Sure. Put someone with a sword up against a setting where there's only one character of roughly human durability and strength or weaker and several settings are capable of that. If it's not clear yet the criteria for these tiers are still exploitable. Even when something is set what determines if one side wins over another is the circumstances and ability to use things, not just having those things. Using the Death Star example again, they can have it and bring it over a world but that means nothing if the setting they're against which is still a lower tier isn't dependent on planets or is capable of engaging with and destroying it before it fires.

Big flashy weapons and abilities are nice, they aren't the entirety of a fight.


Has ability to defend against at least some forms of the above yes/no?

See above. "defend against" could be anything from some form of fortification that nullifies the attack to the ability to neutralize the weapon in question or the group using it before it's fired. Getting people to agree that everything in that spectrum is "defending against" is sometimes difficult thought.



Huh? I'm not following you here.

The question is, what's the most optimized universe vs universe war that all valid* participants from the universe could manage. Can they retroactively destroy other universes before the combat begins? Can they destroy other universes in a single attack? Can they defend against these things?

Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but I'm not seeing much room to argue about such things in a valid way outside issues of ignorance of the IP. I expect I'll be putting my ignorance on display a lot with my initial Tierings. :smallredface::smallbiggrin: Which I'm waiting to start in on until, you know, questions about the validity of "PC-classed beings" is ironed out, or a few days pass and I get bored, whichever comes first. :smallwink:

* currently "PC-class beings"; we'll see if that definition changes.

Well for one you're using the phrase "most optimized" which in this style of internet debate actually translates to "most random excuse for how they'd win I can throw out." It's an absolutely wonderful way to get into D&D RAW abuse, completely out of character uses of abilities and weapons, and pure speculation of what powers could do if taken to theoretical extremes.

What I'm saying is you don't get into debates like this with any expectation of organization and order, you certainly don't do it with the expectation of a "tier system" that anybody will really agree on. If you're going to get into this kind of mess you embrace the chaos of a bunch of adults playing pretend that their favorite settings are fighting and be done with it.


If you wanted to compare the world of Watchmen to the world of Star Trek, would you compare Dr. Manhattan vs. Q or would you compare the federation vs. everybody except for Manhattan? Because extremely powerful outliers do warp the question, and characters with conceptual abilities or unlimited time powers tend to be extremely powerful outliers by definition.

Commenting on the part I bolded. There's a reason when different groups do try debates like this their standard is usually "only debate by what's been shown or proven on screen." Because the idea of comparing infinities or using omnipotence as an I win button is so rampant and always, always, pointless and not only is omnipotence impossible to actually prove it's usually directly contradicted in the setting where it's claimed by "omnipotent" characters still having to put in any effort at all for a win.

[Devils_Advocate]

Quertus, it seems like maybe the scenarios you're trying to talk about are of the form "Who would win in a fight to the death between all of the characters of setting X and all of the characters of setting Y, given what we know of their capabilities?"

Most settings are a lot smaller than a universe, and killing any finite number of people seems like a much easier task than destroying the entire universe they're in, generally speaking? Like, the Death Star probably could easily demolish most single-planet settings, which is overkill if only the deaths of their inhabitants are required; but destroying a planet doesn't really even make a dent in an entire universe, unless the universe is an unusually small one. Sterilizing even an entire galaxy would almost certainly be pretty hopeless; again, unless we're talking about a weirdly small galaxy.


Long ago, I made a thread about comparing universes; in particular, how they'd handle trying to eliminate one another.

Well, first off, I’m not having the universes interact - I’m merely Tiering them.
I'm pretty sure that eliminating something requires, and indeed is a form of, interacting with it.

Anyway, I feel like the best ability to have here would be a power that lets you sense and eliminate any threat to your life before it even manifests. Because then whoever was setting up these death matches, however they were doing it, they're dead now, so no more need to worry. ;)

[Quertus]

I keep losing my reply; I’ll try to be brief.


Well, by definition if they are looking for a lower power level than D&D, than D&D is overpowered for them. The existence of even more overpowered settings doesn't actually change that.

Which is not to say that you have to stop, but I don't think you are going to win that argument. Also is that what we are trying to measure here? Overall power level of setting? Average power level of PC-like character?
So you created the thread because you thought someone was wrong on the internet and instead of bringing your disagreement up to them you brought it to a place people might agree with you.

Ah, I’ve failed to explain myself very well. Let me try again. Numerous people in the Playground have talked about D&D Wizard as though they were so much more powerful than anything else in any RPG / IP. This piqued my curiosity, and I already made a thread where the Playground demonstrated how D&D Wizards were actually rather mediocre. So technically the Playground already “won that argument” on the side of “no they’re not”. But it keeps coming up, and… this thread, universe vs universe, is an angle which the original thread didn’t properly cover.

My comments were more to… explain both what a valuable answer would look like / why looking at individuals isn’t it, and my biases. That said, I’m explicitly giving D&D its advantage in that it’s one of the few systems that has rules for the results of world travel, so I don’t think my biases color things too much, at least in the obvious ways.


I am very unsure why Marvel is rated a tier higher than DC at time travel stuff.

My own ignorance of DC, most likely.




Also, I am unsure why "Marvel" is treated as if it is only one universe. And why is "DC" treated as only one universe.

Yes, they’re obviously multiple universes. I may be unfairly cherry-picking the highlights, and it brings up the problem of what to do when certain things are only explicitly specified for part of a multi-universe setting.


For DC alone, there is "Pre-Crisis DC comics multiverse", "Post-Crisis but pre-Flashpoint DC comics universe", "post-Flashpoint pre-Rebirth DC comics", "post Rebirth DC comics", "DC TV shows", and "DC movies" at the very least. And each one is completely different. Pre-Crisis DC comics had a hard rule that time travel could not change history (except when they forgot and they could do it anyway); basically, Superman's inherent ability to time travel could not change history, but someone like Per Degaton could do so easily. During Crisis on Infinite Earths, history was radically altered permanently, after which history (and future history) was supposedly fixed and unchangeable. And after Flashpoint history was easily changed by people like Reverse Flash (messing with Barry Allen) and Doctor Manhattan (who apparently was behind all the changes that happened to Superman's often-rebooted history).

Marvel used to have the rule that time travel could not change history; it would only create another parallel universe. I think that changed around the time of Age of Ultron and possibly the second series to call itself "Secret Wars" (not to be confused with Secret Wars II). Maybe even as far back as Age of Apocalypse? I dunno. But time travel for a long time in the classic Marvel Universe could NEVER change history. So, Marvel probably needs to be divided into "classic Marvel", "post-second-Secret-Wars Marvel," and "Marvel Cinematic Universe". The Marvel movies clearly have their own time travel rules which are similar to but different from the comics.

But I think Doctor Manhattan's casual ability to rewrite all of history is pretty significant, much less Per Degaton (when he's not busy washing those test tubes).

Yup, you’ll obviously get to call me on my ignorance with your superior knowledge. Kudos!

The bolded bit is why I rated Marvel as Tier 1 - they canonically have a defense against Time Travel, which even operates on beings from other realities. It’s not like Marvel is lacking for different forms of Time Travel mechanics/powers/devices/McGuffins, it’s that the underlying physics of Time in Marvel realities overrides the function of Time Travel.

That this branching timeline was one of the few theories of Time Travel that was actually workable in all media, from comic books to movies to RPGs was just icing on the cake. All in all, it was IMO one of Marvel’s best features.

Speaking of different mechanics… DC Time Travel seems to often have an oddity where, if someone retroactively negates your timeline, you are immune to the effects if you’re in a different universe at the time. Any such powers open up strange interactions, where a DC agent erases a universe, but does so while one of their agents is in DC; they return to DC to find their universe retroactively erased as well (or, worse, don’t get to turn to do so, if the opponent lacks that limitation, and erases them, too).

Anyway, does anyone / anything in DC possess defenses against Time being rewritten? When (for example) Dr. Manhattan rewrote the timeline, did anyone just passively “nope” those changes? Because that’s the minimumm requirement for Tier 1.

Lastly, while it’s probably irrelevant to DC’s Tier, my very limited experience with Dr. Manhattan suggests it would be more thematic for him to change every molecule of the universe to match one that would have resulted from his intended timeline than for him to actually manipulate Time directly (a power that wouldn’t trigger many beings’ Time senses, and most Chronomancers couldn’t defend against). Did he definitely actually manipulate Time? I ask in case nobody was able to “nope” his ability.


And if you're worried that Marvel has a race that can create Cosmic Cubes, DC has a race (the Controllers) that can create Miracle Machines (and Sun-Eaters, but they're only catastrophic to an area of space, not time).

I mean, they probably don’t matter for evaluating the Tier of the reality, but… what’s a Miracle Machine?


But you've requested an approach which skips over most of those universes to get down to an arbitrary restriction of "player characters." If you're interested in the thing as a whole do the thing as a whole, don't say you're interested in it then only allow a tiny part of it.

PC-class beings. You can play humans in Star Wars and WW2 simulator, so you get the humans who can drop nukes and command the Star Destroyer. You can’t play as gods, so you don’t get the gods of those universes.

Again, feel free to give an alternative that is simultaneously “more fair” and avoids discussing real-world religions.


But you've actively removed the upper ends of these universes which in itself is putting them at less than your stated goal of "optimized universe vs universe warfare."

“Optimized” <> “wholistic”. “What’s the best you can do with $50” <> “what’s the best you can do with infinite money”.


infinite power is impossible to prove and just go based off what's actually shown by abilities or saying no informed abilities or vague claims allowed as evidence.

Still runs into issues of discussing real world religions.


There's still tons of other places than this VS Battles Wiki you're talking about that have been doing this for years, decades even, and they still can't consistently agree on anything where you're seeming to believe you can get it right here.

I am a master of hubris. Time will tell the extent to which it is deserved. :smallwink:


So standard "everybody gets prep time so the side I think I can optimize more and magically get to ignore all their personal limitations and reasons they don't use certain abilities and resources wins" debate. Understood.

Imagine you’re a soldier. You’re on leave, hundreds of miles from your weapons, taking a dump, when you’re suddenly whisked off to another world. As the life pours out of the hole the mounted armored knight made in your side, would you feel that this was a fair fight, proving that modern soldiers are inferior to medieval knights?

In addition to making sure both sides are aware and “in fighting form”, the second purpose of the preparation setup is to limit the value of divination such that you don’t know which reality you’ll be facing ahead of time, trying to strike that balance of letting both sides be ready for war, but not explicitly for this war.


You acknowledge that the entire reason you're making this thread is because you disagree with another website's conclusions

Eh, nope. Completely missed the target on this one. I happen to laugh at that website, as a reason why I won’t simply abandon this thread as “oh, someone has already done a good enough job of answering this question”.

Feel free to link to one of those other sites you claim has been doing this - if one has actually done an acceptable job, I’ll simply post their findings as our starting point instead of using my own ignorance too give a first pass at tiers.


Sure, this is already a case of somebody wrong on the internet and not wanting to use any of the many other places these kinds of arguments happen, guess it can't be made any worse by doubling down on things that might lead to one side or another having arbitrary advantages because their setting was actually built with multiversal travel and interaction in mind.

Well, there are AFAIK 3 different versions of this challenge: 1) two universes fight; 2) one universe “invades” / is sent to the other (“a D&D Wizard in…”); 3) both sides are sent to a neutral 3rd location. Reality travel is generally useless in the last two, and, while it provides an advantage in the first case, can you give a reason why the ability to travel between realities at more than just the designated spots should cause a Tier change?


Considering your issue with including things, just say everything except the things we can't actually determine the upper end of power on and save yourself time.

Some real-world religions could claim a knowable upper power limit for some or all of their agents; this fails to meet the necessary requirements.


You're genuinely asking if there are settings where losing access to a bunch of magic, something that in some settings gets up to the range of wiping cities off the map and permanently scarring continents or rewriting reality, might lower their spot on these arbitrary tiers? Yes, it very well might.

Sounds interesting… context… ahh, “divine casters being depowered”. “It very well might” cause a Tier change. That’s not the question. The question is, after I Tier a universe, do you look at that Tier, and realize it changes if you answer this question differently? If so, mention it then.


”Can time travel" and "can use time travel to destroy another universe or civilization" are different things. Other things that aren't the same as having access to time travel: "can do so without consequences", "can cause lasting changes such as actually altering their timeline instead of just splitting it and living in the new one while the old one continues", and "can do so quickly and easily.".

Agreed. I do poorly with attempts at brevity.

[SimonMoon6]

The bolded bit is why I rated Marvel as Tier 1 - they canonically have a defense against Time Travel, which even operates on beings from other realities. It’s not like Marvel is lacking for different forms of Time Travel mechanics/powers/devices/McGuffins, it’s that the underlying physics of Time in Marvel realities overrides the function of Time Travel.



Well, the problem is that if you're using the modern Marvel Universe, things don't work like that anymore, as shown in Age of Ultron, where history WAS changed. If you're using the classic Marvel Universe, then fine, but then we should use the classic (pre-Crisis) DC universe which has a similar feature. As was stated repeatedly in DC comics of the time, history could not be changed. Superman, the most physically powerful superhero in the entire universe, could not change history.

Then during Crisis on Infinite Earths, there was an addendum added to that... history could not be changed except at the dawn of time. So, to change reality, the main villain of Crisis on Infinite Earths (the Anti-Monitor) traveled back to the very beginning of time to create reality his way. (This also featured a really cool callback to the origin story of Krona as seen in Green Lantern comics regarding the beginning of time, but that's a digression.) The heroes traveled back in time to stop him. Only the Spectre really had the power to try to stop him. And then... something happened and reality was different, but not in a bad way.

Now, yes, technically, history was occasionally changed in DC comics. Per Degaton did it every time he appeared. Vandal Savage even did it one time. But I think the implied (though never stated) rule is that "any change to history will get changed back".




Speaking of different mechanics… DC Time Travel seems to often have an oddity where, if someone retroactively negates your timeline, you are immune to the effects if you’re in a different universe at the time.

I'm not sure that that's unique to DC. I think lots of fiction would allow that sort of thing to happen. I think even Stargate SG-1 worked that way.



Anyway, does anyone / anything in DC possess defenses against Time being rewritten? When (for example) Dr. Manhattan rewrote the timeline, did anyone just passively “nope” those changes? Because that’s the minimumm requirement for Tier 1.

Okay, well, classic DC (pre-Crisis) had "history can never be changed", although because of the large amounts of stories written about this universe, this wasn't as axiomatic as it could be. The particular Superman rule that I enjoy is the fact that if you try to travel to a time when you already exist, you (the time traveler) become an immaterial phantom, incapable of interacting with anything. But also, even if you're not a phantom, you can't change history, though you may find that history involved you doing exactly the things that you did in the past.

Then, in the post-Crisis universe, the character of Impulse (the grandson of Flash #2 Barry Allen) had the power to be immune to reality being rewritten. So, he could always realize that something was wrong (like a more powerful version of Guinan in that one ST:TNG episode where reality was rewritten).

Then, in the post-Flashpoint universe where Dr. Manhattan was changing things (and even stole ten years of everybody's life), Wally West (Flash #3) showed up and was mostly immune to the new version of reality (though things got weird with him very quickly). Also, Mr. Mxyzptlk did some weird stuff with Superman that implied that he was above such changes. That is, after the Superman from the post-Flashpoint universe died (because he was a terrible character), Mr. Mxyzptlk got the pre-Flashpoint post-Crisis version of Superman and transplanted him and his history into the current universe (even though this doesn't really make sense).

And to top it all off, the newest version of the DC multiverse (post Dark Crisis) has a tagline along the lines of "Everything happened. Everything matters" in an attempt to say that every story ever written actually did happen in some universe at some time somewhere somehow. This is an attempt to say that all the rewriting of history and changes to continuity shouldn't impact anyone's fun because the old stuff is real and matters. (Of course, when everything matters, nothing does, but the writers don't care.) So, yeah, you could change all the history of one Earth all you want to, but the unchanged history is out there somewhere and it can come kick your ass. This hasn't really been explored in detail, so the actual consequences of the current situation are vague at the moment.

Oh, and that reminds me of the post-Crisis pre-Flashpoint universe's weirdest trait. At one point, it was revealed that there was something called "Hypertime". Every possibility existed in a timeline that could interact with and overlap with the main reality at any given time, so that there was no real continuity or sense of history. Batwoman (who was dead) could show up without explanation because of Hypertime. This was the writer's attempts to avoid having to adhere to any sense of continuity. Good luck changing history in that universe when history is completely fluid and changing all the time. (I hated Hypertime but it was a part of the comic stories for a while.)


my very limited experience with Dr. Manhattan suggests it would be more thematic for him to change every molecule of the universe to match one that would have resulted from his intended timeline than for him to actually manipulate Time directly (a power that wouldn’t trigger many beings’ Time senses, and most Chronomancers couldn’t defend against). Did he definitely actually manipulate Time? I ask in case nobody was able to “nope” his ability.

Yeah, I mean, he found Superman (1938) fascinating, so he moved the beginning of Superman's story further into the future, creating a Justice Society (1940s superhero group) that had no knowledge of Superman. And then he decided the first Green Lantern (Alan Scott) of the 1940s was interesting, so he prevented Alan Scott's origin from happening (by moving an object slightly out of reach). No Green Lantern meant no Justice Society. And so the world had never had a Justice Society or a 1940's Superman. And then he kept pushing Superman's origin forward until near the modern day.

I guess it depends what you mean by manipulating time, but he was there and then doing things to the past, if I recall correctly, much as any other time traveler would go to the past and do stuff. But Dr. Manhattan has weird perceptions of what he's doing.

There was more to it, like Dr. Manhattan recognizing that Superman was important to the "metaverse" in an almost fourth wall breaking kind of way, but it didn't really get explained much.



I mean, they probably don’t matter for evaluating the Tier of the reality, but… what’s a Miracle Machine?


It's a lot like a cosmic cube. It can do anything that you want it to. It does have the slight drawback of being influenced by even the slightest thought. If for a moment, you wished you were dead, you would die. The Legion of Super-Heroes were gifted one, but they had to put it in a block of solid inertron (their version of adamantium) to prevent it from being accidentally used.

When an organization known as the Dark Circle had taken over the entire galaxy, the Legion used the Miracle Machine to defeat them in an instant. When Brainiac 5 went crazy, he used the Miracle Machine to create a being called Omega who could destroy the galaxy, but was defeated when Matter-Eater Lad ate the Miracle Machine (this caused Matter-Eater Lad to go crazy).

During Final Crisis, as the rest of reality fell apart around him, Superman was able to build a new Miracle Machine alongside DC's surviving geniuses before using his own solar cells to activate it. This allowed Superman to restructure and remake reality.

[Satinavian]

Sounds interesting… context… ahh, “divine casters being depowered”. “It very well might” cause a Tier change. That’s not the question. The question is, after I Tier a universe, do you look at that Tier, and realize it changes if you answer this question differently? If so, mention it then.
there are universes where time travel/manipulation/defense is closely linked to divine beings (e.g. TDE). There are universes where temporal magic is always divine magic. There are universes where all magic is dinine magic.

[Quertus]

Why I tiered things the way I did for the sample IPs

1) Marvel - I listed Marvel as Tier 1 because every bit of Marvel Time Travel I knew was either from the era of "time cannot be changed", or could be explained under that paradigm (with the wiggle room of traveling between alternate timelines). Also, Marvel has the clever "616" etc numeric designations, which made it quite clear that, from an external PoV, time travel did not change the timeline, that all changes were limited to a new branch that the outside universes saw as separate.

2) DC - I listed DC as Tier 2 because DC has plenty of Time Travel, but every instance I was aware of indicated that time could, in fact, be changed. And that beings outside that timeline saw the timeline as changing (leading to those outside the AoE who noticed often then working to change it back).

3) B5 - Given that my first thoughts for Tier 1 & 2 happened to be a pair of like universes, and my Tier 4 was definitely going to be Star Wars, I asked myself if there was any space sci-fi universe that had a defense against destruction on a planetary (or greater) scale. And while B5 is usually one of the weakest space universes, it does have multiple planet-killers, and the Vorlons can supposedly "bend space". I don't know what that means, exactly, but I hoped it meant you could throw a galaxy at them, and miss. Yeah, I'm pretty ignorant of most of these IP - have you noticed? :smallredface::smallbiggrin:

4) Star Wars - Uh, Death Star, destroys planets, no real defense. Also Sun Crusher in EU, and probably others I'm just not aware of. Star Wars is my iconic "can destroy (the forces of) some settings in a single attack".

5) "Modern Earth"-esque. Tier 5 really got the shaft for explanation, and that's biting me now. When it comes to a "boots on the ground" approach, "modern" RPGs represent kinda the low-end of Tier 5: barely large enough AoE attacks, limited avoidance / multi-terrain tech, limited stealth, limited sensory data. They can't hurl lightning from eternal cloud cities indefinitely, they have limited fuel and ammunition and manpower, but they scrape the bottom of the barrel for being a superior "boots on the ground" offense, with some defense tech (flight, camouflage, stealth, etc).

6) Conan - honestly, my limited knowledge of what PC-class beings in Conan can do suggests that you could hand a good rifle to a noncom like me, and I'd have a chance at killing any of them. I'm not aware of any significant defenses, or any offensive abilities to wipe out whole cities / whole armies, or any other significant ability able to swing the tide in an IP-wide death match.


there are universes where time travel/manipulation/defense is closely linked to divine beings (e.g. TDE). There are universes where temporal magic is always divine magic. There are universes where all magic is dinine magic.

I'm completely ignorant of TDE, besides knowing it exists, and a few scraps my senile mind remembers from posts on this site (including that... it's in German?).

So... imagine that a copy of the world is created, including all the PC-classed beings. Assuming they're not PC-class beings, the deities are replaced with code, with cosmic gumball machines, with functionally omnipotent but non-sentient constructs with no physical presence in the world (so you can't literally hide behind them, for example). If they can still do their job as brilliantly written code for cosmic gumball machines, then they can still power divine magic. If their only value is when people meet with them, have a few drinks, and convince them to act on their behalf, then their replacements aren't effective. If divine magic exists in an Eberon state, it sounds board-safe, and works; if a prophet prayed once, and (depending on your perspective) Good/Bad Things Happened (like a Miracle in Rifts), in this case to Time, then it can't be properly encoded. Does that sound even remotely reasonable? If so, what Tier is DNE? If it does not sound reasonable, how is it unreasonable / what do you think a reasonable alternative (that is board-safe when applied universally) would sound like?

[tyckspoon]

-very much text elided for brevity-

..so this is not an entirely serious reaction, but it sounds like there is an argument here that the Marvel and DC multiverses have their 'history' so thoroughly Timey-Wimey'fied that the characters present state is simply no longer causally linked to their alleged pasts. Which would make an amusing out of context problem for the universes that are trying to commit temporal warfare based on the premise that causality matters and that previous events lead to future events - try to time-punch Superman or excise the entirety of Marvel Earth 616 from the timeline and they just don't care because the total weight of retcons, rollbacks, universal resets, etc means things they did or experienced Before no longer have any influence on who they are and what they can do Now.

[Lord Raziere]

..so this is not an entirely serious reaction, but it sounds like there is an argument here that the Marvel and DC multiverses have their 'history' so thoroughly Timey-Wimey'fied that the characters present state is simply no longer causally linked to their alleged pasts. Which would make an amusing out of context problem for the universes that are trying to commit temporal warfare based on the premise that causality matters and that previous events lead to future events - try to time-punch Superman or excise the entirety of Marvel Earth 616 from the timeline and they just don't care because the total weight of retcons, rollbacks, universal resets, etc means things they did or experienced Before no longer have any influence on who they are and what they can do Now.

Yeah, honestly time warfare isn't even the peak of power. absolute/conceptual attacks, those are the real power. you want to get rid of Superman entirely, you have to erase the concept of Superman from existence on a metaphysical level so that even a time traveler can't go back to restore him.

[NichG]

Yeah, honestly time warfare isn't even the peak of power. absolute/conceptual attacks, those are the real power. you want to get rid of Superman entirely, you have to erase the concept of Superman from existence on a metaphysical level so that even a time traveler can't go back to restore him.

And arguably above that are meta things like being able to declare 'oh, all of that was a book we were reading, but since as the reader we're outside of the book, those actions are just words and can't hurt us'. Even if a character in a story destroys the concept of superman, you can't stop the reader from writing a new story that has superman in it, so 4th wall breaks can ignore even that sort of thing.

It kind of comes down to burning meaningfulness as fuel for power.

[Kane0]

So would the Red Alert universe fall under Tier 1 or Tier 5?

[Satinavian]

So... imagine that a copy of the world is created, including all the PC-classed beings. Assuming they're not PC-class beings, the deities are replaced with code, with cosmic gumball machines, with functionally omnipotent but non-sentient constructs with no physical presence in the world (so you can't literally hide behind them, for example). If they can still do their job as brilliantly written code for cosmic gumball machines, then they can still power divine magic. If their only value is when people meet with them, have a few drinks, and convince them to act on their behalf, then their replacements aren't effective. If divine magic exists in an Eberon state, it sounds board-safe, and works; if a prophet prayed once, and (depending on your perspective) Good/Bad Things Happened (like a Miracle in Rifts), in this case to Time, then it can't be properly encoded. Does that sound even remotely reasonable? If so, what Tier is DNE? If it does not sound reasonable, how is it unreasonable / what do you think a reasonable alternative (that is board-safe when applied universally) would sound like?TDE was more gods are involved in time travel and less about divine magic. Time travel in that universe are generally "past is unchangeable, alterations vanish with time" except for some very discrete and rare spacetime points called karmal knots where you can switch between timelines. Additionally time loops are possible but generally as some kind of divine curse and are always eventually ended.
But if a time traveler ever produces a paradox, the god of time corrects it and punishes the time traveler. In minor transgressions the punishment is survivable but anyone trying to actually influence history beyond the switching of timelines at those karmal knots gets completely removed from all timelines. That is for individual time travelers but the time god has also removed whole civilizations when they meddled in the time to much and it seems that he has retconned some universe destroying catastrophe in the past. Of course there are some other gods who revere him as primary god and have become very good at doing time magic without pissing him off. The universe is in its 12th age. But the 8th age has been completely removed by the time god. No one knows what happened there, not even the other gods. (And that is officially left to the individual tables to fill as they please) The time god is also known to be the only being with complete knowledge of past, present and future but to never act and never communicate when it is not about time manipulation.
(There is a bit more about some other entity, the archdemon of time and how the time god only became time god when he tried to change the past and prevent the birth of the universe and failed and how this changed the nature of time to the form it has, but it is not really important)

So while magical time travel exist there, the defense against time based attacks pretty much rests on the time god. (There are some other minor time guardians but he is the onl one with unlimited power over time, unlimited knowledge of danger to the timeline and the habit and duty to always react to it if it doest resolve itself)

Sure, we could automate this. An automatic "Everytime anyone tries to change TDEs history though time travel, he gets deleted from all timelines before he can even begin, no defense possible", that certainly would fall under "can defend against time based attacks"


But when i leave TDE and go to the Bookworm universe (where i have also seen RPGs from, even if it is primarily a novel based universe), then i have "All magic is divine". Coincidentally, while it does have a goddess of time, time manipulation magic has never been shown. But time travel and even changing the past has been shown : That is all based on the time goddess moving saints through history and giving them tasks to modify history so the collective gods, especially the weaver of fate like the result more.

Time travel as tool is completely out of reach for mortal actors but very much a thing in the universe.

But if we disregard any gods and just make sure, divine magic still works, the universe falls down to Tier 5 because all the other large effects are also direct divine intervention, not just divine magic. Without divine magic, it is clearly Tier 6 and a rather weak one at that.
The code approach process obviously breaks down here.

[Quertus]

TDE was more gods are involved in time travel and less about divine magic. Time travel in that universe are generally "past is unchangeable, alterations vanish with time"

That would translate to World Physics say that Time cannot be changed -> Tier 2 (defense against standard "you lose before we even begin" tech). Tier 1 if the PC-class beings have Time Travel attacks in addition to this Universal defense.


But if a time traveler ever produces a paradox, the god of time corrects it and punishes the time traveler. In minor transgressions the punishment is survivable but anyone trying to actually influence history beyond the switching of timelines at those karmal knots gets completely removed from all timelines. That is for individual time travelers but the time god has also removed whole civilizations when they meddled in the time to much and it seems that he has retconned some universe destroying catastrophe in the past.

Implies changing the past actually is possible, negating previous Tier status. So, what would happen if this Time deity were killed / ceased to exist, and someone introduced a Paradox?

Dubious whether it matters for Tiering, as it sounds like "changing the state of whether a universe-destroying event occurred" is within the scope of what can be done in the universe, so they're vulnerable to upper Tier attacks.


There are some other minor time guardians but he is the onl one with unlimited power over time, unlimited knowledge of danger to the timeline and the habit and duty to always react to it if it doest resolve itself)

Are they PC-class beings? If so, their capabilities are quite relevant.


Sure, we could automate this. An automatic "Everytime anyone tries to change TDEs history though time travel, he gets deleted from all timelines before he can even begin, no defense possible", that certainly would fall under "can defend against time based attacks"
Except...


the time god only became time god when he tried to change the past and prevent the birth of the universe and failed and how this changed the nature of time to the form it has

the time god has also removed whole civilizations when they meddled in the time to much and it seems that he has retconned some universe destroying catastrophe in the past

The time deity attempted to change TDE's history, and was not deleted from all timelines before they could even begin, therefore this replacement creates a Paradox, and is invalid.


But when i leave TDE and go to the Bookworm universe (where i have also seen RPGs from, even if it is primarily a novel based universe), then i have "All magic is divine". Coincidentally, while it does have a goddess of time, time manipulation magic has never been shown. But time travel and even changing the past has been shown : That is all based on the time goddess moving saints through history and giving them tasks to modify history so the collective gods, especially the weaver of fate like the result more.

Time travel as tool is completely out of reach for mortal actors but very much a thing in the universe.

But if we disregard any gods and just make sure, divine magic still works, the universe falls down to Tier 5 because all the other large effects are also direct divine intervention, not just divine magic. Without divine magic, it is clearly Tier 6 and a rather weak one at that.
The code approach process obviously breaks down here.

Just depends on which beings are PC-class. If the deities trying to make the world look nice are PC class (if the RPG has the players playing the gods choosing which Saints to send when/where), and their powers aren't limited to their own universe, then the universe is higher Tier.


So would the Red Alert universe fall under Tier 1 or Tier 5?

I'm completely unfamiliar - you tell me.


Yeah, honestly time warfare isn't even the peak of power. absolute/conceptual attacks, those are the real power. you want to get rid of Superman entirely, you have to erase the concept of Superman from existence on a metaphysical level so that even a time traveler can't go back to restore him.


And arguably above that are meta things like being able to declare 'oh, all of that was a book we were reading, but since as the reader we're outside of the book, those actions are just words and can't hurt us'. Even if a character in a story destroys the concept of superman, you can't stop the reader from writing a new story that has superman in it, so 4th wall breaks can ignore even that sort of thing.

It kind of comes down to burning meaningfulness as fuel for power.

There are absolutely other forms of attack that could put something at the highest Tier - Time Travel was just the only one the Playground came up with in the previous thread.

Anything that says, "your universe was made not a threat before the battle even began", such as well-used Time Travel or "you're just a story1" qualify you for Tier 2; having both such an offense and defense against at least the most common such is necessary for Tier 1.

However, slight correction, words can be hurtful, just usually not in quite the same way as what they are written about. Just read [REDACTED], and you'll never be the same again.

1 It depends on the specifics of the ability as to whether it's in the top or mid Tiering, whether it's "destroy a universe's IP" like the Death Star does to small, single-planet IP universes, or "the universe was never a threat", like the game I uninstalled.

[Kane0]

I'm completely unfamiliar - you tell me.


Well it's an alternate WWII+, the core premise being 'what if Einstein time travelled to kill Hitler', thus the WW is against the soviets instead (and later japanese empire in the second sequel).

So time travel and chrono-warfare is absolutely a thing, but on the other hand even superweapons are on the nuclear-bomb level so there isn't anything that can explode planets.

[Satinavian]

Implies changing the past actually is possible, negating previous Tier status. So, what would happen if this Time deity were killed / ceased to exist, and someone introduced a Paradox?
It is primarily an RPG. If would guess, that was implemented for PC trying to break the time travel laws with huge changes in the past and overwhelm the GMs ability to reason how that fuzzles out into nothing. If that happens, he can just say "Time god intervenes, nothing of this nonsense happened. Also make new PCs."
As for the killing, well he is chained at the core of the universe that is utterly removed and unreachable with any kind of planar movement and which is also static which means nothing ever can change there and time doesn't flow.
No one knows what would happen with "killing the time god". Arguably time would stop existing.


Are they PC-class beings? If so, their capabilities are quite relevant.Not really. You could build some follower of the time god with time powers trying to protect time but would not be fundamentally different from another PC with time powers and you wouldn't get any special interaction or knowledge.

The time deity attempted to change TDE's history, and was not deleted from all timelines before they could even begin, therefore this replacement creates a Paradox, and is invalid.Yes, and that is acknowledged. The paradox is the reason why the later time god failed.
The origin story for the time god is also the origin story of linear and restrictive timeflow of the universe itself. Arguable that was a second iteration of creation as it started from the beginning again but now with rigid time. And the time god job was kind of a mirror punishment, not a reward. The guy trying to change time was chained to the core of the universe and is unable to do anything else than thwart and punish people trying to do similar things.
There are also apocryhical hints for remnants of the original universe that somehow evaded that redo and don't have a rigid, selfcorrecting time. So it is acknowledges that the timeflow rules doN#t extend to other universes and DE time travelers can go wild there even if not at home.



Just depends on which beings are PC-class. If the deities trying to make the world look nice are PC class (if the RPG has the players playing the gods choosing which Saints to send when/where), and their powers aren't limited to their own universe, then the universe is higher Tier.The dieties certainly are not PC class.

[Quertus]

Well it's an alternate WWII+, the core premise being 'what if Einstein time travelled to kill Hitler', thus the WW is against the soviets instead (and later japanese empire in the second sequel).

So time travel and chrono-warfare is absolutely a thing, but on the other hand even superweapons are on the nuclear-bomb level so there isn't anything that can explode planets.

If Einstein can go back in time and kill baby Hitler, he can probably go back in time and kill baby lungfish (or the setting equivalent), and defeat the other reality before they are aware there’s a war, regardless of the impotence of their weaponry. Tier 2.


It is primarily an RPG. If would guess, that was implemented for PC trying to break the time travel laws with huge changes in the past and overwhelm the GMs ability to reason how that fuzzles out into nothing. If that happens, he can just say "Time god intervenes, nothing of this nonsense happened. Also make new PCs."
As for the killing, well he is chained at the core of the universe that is utterly removed and unreachable with any kind of planar movement and which is also static which means nothing ever can change there and time doesn't flow.

The origin story for the time god is also the origin story of linear and restrictive timeflow of the universe itself. Arguable that was a second iteration of creation as it started from the beginning again but now with rigid time. And the time god job was kind of a mirror punishment, not a reward. The guy trying to change time was chained to the core of the universe and is unable to do anything else than thwart and punish people trying to do similar things.
There are also apocryhical hints for remnants of the original universe that somehow evaded that redo and don't have a rigid, selfcorrecting time. So it is acknowledges that the timeflow rules doN#t extend to other universes and DE time travelers can go wild there even if not at home.

Ah. “Physics were changed such that Time Travel is limited to switching between nexus junctions in a pre-established set of timelines” - have I got that right? Plus… hmmm… “paradoxes (things that go off the rails of the nexus events) technically can be created, but then are deleted” sounds like a valid Cosmic gum ball machine. That’s a pretty effective defense against Time Travelers ignorant of that rule, so TDE sounds Tier 1 to me.


No one knows what would happen with "killing the time god". Arguably time would stop existing.

That’s a curious vulnerability of the setting. But irrelevant to their Tier.

[Batcathat]

Since the capabilities of different universes can be so uneven (for example, a universe might have time travel but otherwise be limited to real world technology, whether modern or historic), wouldn't it be more useful to note a few different capabilities of the universes (For example, "Can time-travel? Yes/no", "Can destroy planets? Yes/no", etc.)

Otherwise, you get comparisons like the Back to the future universe and the Star Wars universe, where the former has time travel (so at least tier 2), but is extremely far below the latter in pretty much any other sense. It's like one side of a war being cavemen (but they have nukes) and the other being a modern army (but they don't have nukes), the cavemen are arguably the most powerful side, but it's not the entire picture.

[Quertus]

Since the capabilities of different universes can be so uneven (for example, a universe might have time travel but otherwise be limited to real world technology, whether modern or historic), wouldn't it be more useful to note a few different capabilities of the universes (For example, "Can time-travel? Yes/no", "Can destroy planets? Yes/no", etc.)

Otherwise, you get comparisons like the Back to the future universe and the Star Wars universe, where the former has time travel (so at least tier 2), but is extremely far below the latter in pretty much any other sense. It's like one side of a war being cavemen (but they have nukes) and the other being a modern army (but they don't have nukes), the cavemen are arguably the most powerful side, but it's not the entire picture.

And since when did anyone mistake “Tier” for the entire picture?! :smallamused:

Still, the Tier mechanism I’ve put forth does a good job of expressing the highest form of war a universe is capable of.

And Time-traveling cave men can still bludgeon lungfish to death with their clubs. :smallamused:

[icefractal]

And Time-traveling cave men can still bludgeon lungfish to death with their clubs. :smallamused:If they know that bludgeoning the lungfish would do anything, yeah. But if they're cavemen they probably don't know about evolution. :smallconfused:

Which is also a serious point. A lot of universes that have time travel don't necessarily have reliable time travel that can be precisely directed. For a universe that has time travel but isn't actively using it as a defense, a force that can "merely" shutdown their temporal capabilities (or kill the operators) without any warning is probably going to defeat them if conflict happens.

... which is pretty much what happens when an unoptimized T1 class who doesn't have paranoia-defenses running comes up against an optimized T4. So I guess it's an appropriate metaphor. :smalltongue:

[awa]

So would the Red Alert universe fall under Tier 1 or Tier 5?

They use time travel almost exclusively to set up the game not during the game to solve problems, further they never actually get what they want through time travel. The Butterfly effect is particularly random such as creating random mech and psychic school girl imperial japan out of nowhere. So they are not using time travel to solve problems and have no real defense against someone else using time travel against them.

[Batcathat]

And since when did anyone mistake “Tier” for the entire picture?! :smallamused:

Still, the Tier mechanism I’ve put forth does a good job of expressing the highest form of war a universe is capable of.

Sure, but having a few Yes/No qualifications would do the same thing, with greater detail and no extra effort (since tiering a universe still requires insight into its capabilities the only difference would be between writing a single number and writing like five Yes or No). Two universes having the same top level attack (like time travel or maybe some sort of reality warping) doesn't mean they're by any means equal.

[Bohandas]

I'm pretty sure Doctor Who, Star Trek, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, and The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy would all qualify under Tier 1

[SimonMoon6]

I'm pretty sure Doctor Who, Star Trek, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, and The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy would all qualify under Tier 1

Star Trek? I'm pretty sure history is always being changed in the Star Trek universe. You can go back to the classic series with the Guardian of Forever (Bones saves the life of a good woman but that ruins the future), or TNG with all the times Q changes the past (and he does it again in Picard Season 2), not to mention a few times in Voyager, and even Enterprise (where the history that's being changed is the "present" to the main characters).

Doctor Who is very good at being totally inconsistent. For every "fixed point in time", there's a "Time Lord Victorious" or "A Christmas Carol". Even in the classic era, when Barbara was told "You can't change history! Not one line!", we don't know if the Doctor was speaking literally or metaphorically and certainly there were times where history was on the verge of being changed, like when the Fifth Doctor nearly vanished because "great chunks of my past, drifting away like melting icebergs", or when the Sixth Doctor nearly became an Androgum because the Second Doctor had become one, or when the Sixth Doctor nearly had all of his future lives stolen by his future self (the Valeyard) which would have changed his future self's history, or the time when the Fourth Doctor and Sarah Jane saw what would happen if they didn't stop Sutekh (the Earth of 1980 was now an apocalypse). And certainly, the Meddling Monk was trying to change history. If it was impossible, he should've known it was impossible.


Yeah, honestly time warfare isn't even the peak of power. absolute/conceptual attacks, those are the real power. you want to get rid of Superman entirely, you have to erase the concept of Superman from existence on a metaphysical level so that even a time traveler can't go back to restore him.

This is actually somewhat canonical. In one of these recent massive extinction-level events that happens every day in the DC Universe, members of the Crime Syndicate (the evil Justice League who are usually from Earth 3) are not concerned about dying because they know that every time they die, a new version of them will arise in a new version of reality. And they're not wrong. The pre-Crisis Crime Syndicate died in Crisis. Then, post-Crisis, we had the Qwardian version of the Crime Syndicate followed by Grant Morrison's Crime Syndicate (from a book called Earth Two), and now we've had at least two versions of the Crime Syndicate (maybe three? I can't keep track) since then.

[Bohandas]

Star Trek? I'm pretty sure history is always being changed in the Star Trek universe. You can go back to the classic series with the Guardian of Forever (Bones saves the life of a good woman but that ruins the future), or TNG with all the times Q changes the past (and he does it again in Picard Season 2), not to mention a few times in Voyager, and even Enterprise (where the history that's being changed is the "present" to the main characters).

Doctor Who is very good at being totally inconsistent. For every "fixed point in time", there's a "Time Lord Victorious" or "A Christmas Carol". Even in the classic era, when Barbara was told "You can't change history! Not one line!", we don't know if the Doctor was speaking literally or metaphorically and certainly there were times where history was on the verge of being changed, like when the Fifth Doctor nearly vanished because "great chunks of my past, drifting away like melting icebergs", or when the Sixth Doctor nearly became an Androgum because the Second Doctor had become one, or when the Sixth Doctor nearly had all of his future lives stolen by his future self (the Valeyard) which would have changed his future self's history, or the time when the Fourth Doctor and Sarah Jane saw what would happen if they didn't stop Sutekh (the Earth of 1980 was now an apocalypse). And certainly, the Meddling Monk was trying to change history. If it was impossible, he should've known it was impossible.

I thought the whole point of tier 1 was that they could meddle with time, while also being able to defend against such attacks. In Voyager's Year of Hell there were the time weapons and the time-proof shields designed to counter them. There was also the Starfleet Temporal Integrity Commission and whatever was going on with Gary Seven.

And Doctor Who, of course, had the whole Great Time War between the Time Lords and the Daleks