Custom race help PEACH!

[AOKost]

I've been tinkering with a race that I'm kinda wanting to play, and while I know it's powerful, I don't know what kind of CR / level adjustment to give it.. I don't have much of a description for them yet, but I went through many races making choice picks of things I liked through Pathfinder races, and this is what I've come up with.. I was trying to make something very magic / craft / stealthy oriented, and while the first set of abilities are those I want, the latter two sets are far less 'necessary':

Abilities: –2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma: Descended from ancient humans who were forever changed by the harsh lands in the depths of the earth, munavris have exceptional abilities.

(This is an amazing ability spread, I know... I'd be willing to cut out the Con, Wisdom and Charisma bonuses during PEACHing... It's just really nice)

Size: Munvari are Small creatures and thus gain a +1 size bonus to their AC and attack rolls, but suffer a –1 penalty to their CMD and on combat maneuver checks, a +2 size bonus on Fly checks, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.

(Nothing really special here other than the bonus to Fly)

Pixieling: Some munvari never grow any larger than a house cat. These pixielings, as they are called by their Small-sized cousins are Tiny. This doesn’t change the munvari’s Ability scores, but it does reduce its base speed to 10 ft. but does not reduce Flight speed. Like other tiny creatures, pixielings take up a space of 2-1/2 feet by 2-1/2 feet, with a reach of 0. They gain a +2 size bonus to AC and attack rolls, but suffer a -2 penalty to CMB and CMD. Finally, being Tiny grants pixielings a +8 racial bonus on Stealth checks.

(This is intended to be an "alternate racial trait" but also something that I'd be taking)

Base Speed: Slow; Munvari have a base speed of 20 feet, and their speed is never modified by encumbrance or armor.

(Pretty basic, but I thought about removing the "..speed is never modified by encumbrance or armor." because as a flying race, they shouldn't be flying around in too heavy of armor... I'm imagining Chain Shirts as their 'standard' armor, but of course they would have to become proficient with light armor in the normal ways)

Flight: Munvari have a fly speed of twice their base land speed with average maneuverability. Having a natural flight speed gives Munvari a +8 racial bonus to all Fly checks.

(Not too much to see here.. While at lower levels, it's amazing, but above level 5, its very lack-luster... I could even reduce the maneuverability without much fuss)

Senses: Munavris have Darkvision 120 feet. This works in magical darkness and deeper darkness. Furthermore, they have low-light vision.

(This is one of the stronger abilities when it comes to senses... Darkvision that sees through magical darkness and deeper darkness can potentially be game breaking... I'm open to thoughts and suggestions.. I could be persuaded to reduce the distance of the Darkvision... I'm keeping low-light vision as it's basically never an issue..)

Soul Gems (Ex): The mind of a munvari is as sharp as that of any flesh-and-blood soul, but it is more portable. The animating, vital principle of a munvari — its will, its personality, and its mind—are retained in one or (for an extra 8,000 gp) more soul gems. These are the elements that retain an individual’s spirit or soul, and memories, and their destruction means the true death of that munvari. It can be raised from the dead as a human generally is. Soul gems can be taken from a dead munvari and read by others. This is a lengthy process and viewed with some alarm by most, since it is akin to peering into the most private details of a creature’s life. Installing an existing, used soul gem in a munvari requires at least one week for the recipient to remember and understand the results. The process is dangerous, requiring a Fortitude save (DC 10 + one-half level of dead munvari + Cha modifier of dead munvari) to succeed. At the GM's discresion, the soul gem taken from another munvari may give skill bonuses, feats, or special abilities.

(This is super thematically exciting and I absolutely love it... It's something I'd want to keep basically intact)

Cosmic Mind (Ex): A Munvari gets a +2 racial bonus on Knowledge and Spellcraft checks. A Munvari spellcaster who would store spells in a spellbook or familiar instead stores those spells in its mind (but must expend the normal resources to learn new spells) in it's soul gem. This ability gives them 1 mana per level.

(This is also something that I super love and want to keep basically as is)

Healing Factor (Ex): A Munvari has a greater form of Fast Healing granting healing each round equal to 1 / 4 levels (minimum 1) + Con Mod (minimum 0). They also regrow any lost limbs in 1d4 days.

(This is likely one of the more 'powerful' abilities, as it scales.. but it shouldn't be too terrible.. Someone focused on Con could make a huge impact, but if we take the bonus granted from Abilities, that's not as much of an issue.. Unfortunately, Con often gets dumped for other stats that are usually considered more important for a particular build.. I could modify this so that those that take Rage and the like don't get even more healing when they Rage... but this race isn't really meant for raging, or melee for that matter)

Eldritch Blast (Spl): Munvari are so much a part of magic, they have an inherent understanding and use of Eldritch blast special ability. They deal 2d6 points of damage, and follow all the normal rules of Eldritch Blast. This stacks if they decide to purchase it as they level up.

(One of my absolutely favorite class abilities... I figured if this race is to have a level adjustment / high CR that it'd give them an option for games where they start off with basically no weapon proficiencies (my current game)).

Repletion (Su): A munvari can sustain his body without need of food or water. If he spends 1 mana point, he does not need to eat or drink for 24 hours.

(Unless it's a plot device, this should never come into play and is basically here for thematic purposes)

Long-Lived (Ex): Munvari live for thousands of years and only die from 'outside circumstances'; they gain no benefit or penalty from aging and are immune to magical aging effects.

(As with Repletion, this likely will never come into any actual use, and as it grants no bonuses, or penalties, seems really very neutral)



The following are what aren't necessary, but I thought would be thematically fitting:

Spell Resistance: A munavri possesses an amount of spell resistance that’s equal to 10 + her level.

(Spell resistance is always nice, unless you have to resist literally everything, including beneficial effects... but I digress.. Very powerful, but not really necessary)

Fine Hard Scales (Ex): A Munvari gains a +1 natural armor bonus.

(Natural armor is always nice, but it doesn't really help at such a low number, especially for a small/tiny race.. fun to think about though)

Magical Savant: Some munvari are natural mana conduits. They gain a +1 bonus to the DC of spells they cast that have the abjuration, illusion, or language-dependent descriptor or that create glyphs, symbols, or other magical writings, as well as the specific spells mentioned here. They also gain a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against such spells. Munvari with this trait and a Charisma score of 11 or higher also gain the following spell-like abilities (the caster level is equal to the user’s character level): persistent — comprehend language, detect magic, mage hand, prestidigitation, read magic, and unseen servant.

(Now this I had a hard time with... While it's very thematically fitting for what I want, for those that want, Mage Hand and Unseen Servant can both easily be abused... But I see them more as being used 'in the shop' to help them with crafting.. This alone could be said to be worthy of a CR / Level adjustment increase..)

Gifted Craftsmen: Due to their skill at crafting items of all kinds, Munvari pay 10% less when creating magic items.

(Unless you're super minmaxing to reduce the cost of making items, this is only somewhat useful.. In games where it's not allowed, it's totally useless)

Creative Craftsmanship: Munvari gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls and skill rolls with weapons, tools, and vehicles they crafted, add a +1 bonus to caster level when using any item they created, and reduce armor check penalty while wearing armor they made by 1. Additionally, they increase income earned with Perform and Profession skills by 10%.

(As with Gifted Craftsmen, this is a very hit and miss ability... though really nice.. I don't really care about the last sentence "Additionally, they increase income earned with Perform and Profession skills by 10%.")

Stalker: Acrobatics, Perception, Stealth get a +2 racial bonus.

(Simple bonuses... I don't see a problem.. I could cut Acrobatics out of it as it was an afterthought to add it to this)

Silent Hunter: Munvari are renowned for their subtlety and skill. Munvari with this racial trait reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (this number includes the penalty reduction from this racial trait).

(This could be super beneficial for anyone trying to 'snipe and hide' which I'm wanting to do)

Voice in the Darkness: Prerequisite(s): Charisma 13+. Characters in the Underworld or on the Shadow Plane learn to do so in dim light or no light at all. As long as they are in dim light or darker conditions, characters with this trait gain a +2 bonus on Stealth checks.

(With the Charisma Prerequisite, even being relatively low, isn't too bad.. and as I altered the original from including Intimidation, not too OP I would think..)

Burst (Su): Three times per day as a swift action, a munvari can put on a burst of speed to increase his speed by 10 feet, plus 10 feet per four character levels beyond 1st, to a maximum increase of 30 feet at 9th character level and higher. These bursts of speed are considered a competence bonus to the munvari’s base speed. A burst of speed lasts 3 rounds.

(This is very hit and miss, and I only included it because I want to make use of Quick Craftsman, if it's even something that will be allowed... which it likely will, but again, very hit and miss)

Quick Craftsman (Ex): Some munvaris are swifter with their hands than their feet. A munvari with this trait reduces the time required for all item creation (whether via skill or feat) by half. This uses uses of Burst.

(Only useful if Crafting is available in the campaign... and then it's debatable just how useful it is..)


So, that's what I've got... I'd love to get some help 'fleshing this out' a bit more... I accidentally posted this here first: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?654215-Custom-race-help-PEACH!&p=25709801#post25709801

[Melayl]

Oof. That's... quite a ton of racial abilities and bonus. I'd say it would require a quite high LA. They're looking to be nearly on par with dragons. If you want them to be playable, you'll likely need to (at least) cut the number of abilities in half.

I will see if I can find and send you my copies of YabbaTheWhat's Feature Points system -- a great tool for figuring out LA based on abilities. You can also check out Pathfinder's Advanced Race Guide. It has a similar "build point" system.

[AOKost]

Oof. That's... quite a ton of racial abilities and bonus. I'd say it would require a quite high LA. They're looking to be nearly on par with dragons. If you want them to be playable, you'll likely need to (at least) cut the number of abilities in half.

I will see if I can find and send you my copies of YabbaTheWhat's Feature Points system -- a great tool for figuring out LA based on abilities. You can also check out Pathfinder's Advanced Race Guide. It has a similar "build point" system.


I'll check it out when I get the chance, but some things, like the "Healing Factor" aren't covered with Pathfinder's Advanced Race Guide. I have agreed, that as it sits, it would require quite the high LA, but in my own comments I suggest that many of the things aren't necessary Do you have any suggestions? Not even a breakdown of what you think might be appropriate in each of the things I'm going to absolutely be keeping?

[AOKost]

From my first thread:



First: this should probably be in the Homebrew forum instead of here.

You're absolutely right... this was my fault as I'm mostly in the 3.5/PF forums and forget there's a Homebrew... Truly sorry about that!


If there is a reason why it is here: That is an interesting race. I don't see much that is inherently broken, except of course the "the soul gem can give feats and skills of a deceased Munvari". That absolutely cannot be kept as is without a clarification, and a limit on usage. That's absolutely "something for nothing", which shouldn't be a thing. At most "At the DM's discretion, a soul gem can grant various bonuses on skills and/or feats. These bonuses slowly consume the memory stored in the soul gem. A character can at most use these bonuses for one minute per hit die of the deceased Munvari, with each use counting for at least one minute."

Those are some very good suggestions... I was thinking about granting a +2 'racial' bonus any skill the 'dead' munvari had more than 5 ranks in, and giving a limited amount of use on any Feats available based on the dead munvari's level.. but that's also why I said it was at the GM's discression.. How about this as a compromise, limit it to a number of skills equal to the dead munvari's Intelligence modifier, and the GM decides what Skills are available to get that juicy +2 from XD Maybe I should include something along the lines of you can only have so many Soul Gems at once, maybe no more than 1 / 4 levels?


A "mana point" is not a thing in D&D 3.5. If you want to be its own thing, no problem, but if you want it to be useable elsewhere, you should precise how and for what.

Simply put, replace "mana" with "power" and it's the same thing. The game I'm building this for uses 'mana' as a universal power source for all magic and psionics, using Skill Ranks to determine what level of spells from what schools you can cast..


Decreasing crafting cost and time isn't negligible, it's actually quite useful and can potentially break WBL guidelines. That said, since crafting is mostly done in downtime, I don't see how linking the reduction in crafting time to a mostly combat-centric ability makes sense. Better make it a constant reduction, or have it affect Burst in a much longer timeframe (If the Munvari creates an item with the reduced time, they can't use Burst during the creation nor for one week after it's finished).

WBL is a concept that dooesnt really play well with the campaign world that this will be used in.. Maybe Wealth by Game day would be a better concept and even then, it doesn't really apply to this campaign..


You didn't mention the type of the creature. Humanoid? Fey? Living Construct?

As I didn't go through the other races, I think I'll stick with 'human' as a 'base' but no extra skill ranks or Feats...


Everything about the class is very powerful, from stats to abilities. I'd say it's at least a LA+3 race (+1 for stats and flying, +1 for Fast Healing and miscellaneous abilities, +1 for the stackable Eldritch Blast), and even a +4 if you add the facultative traits (no change for the pixieling, lower speed is a good price imo for a smaller size category.

I was honestly thinking LA +2 based on Noble Drow, as they've got many things similar that are easily comparable... LA +3 seems a little on the high side.. +4 if I include the faculative traits? If you're referring to Senses, if we look at the Noble Drow, while they have Light Blindness, and the distance... I could easily take the 'see in magical darkness' out as that's really not necessary... other than that I'm not sure what you mean... There are plenty of races that have Darkvision 60 or 90 ft, a few that have it to 120... many of them have low light vision as well.. Maybe I'm misunderstanding? Also... this isn't a 'class', just a race here to be modified for potential usage by PCs... Should I put my commentary about each thing on a line below the actual abilities so it's easier to see my thoughts?

[AOKost]

What does everyone think about this itteration? I cut it down and modified it so maybe it's not so confusing and potentially broken, even if I haven't gotten many suggestions lol


Abilities: –2 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence,

Size: Munvari are Small creatures and thus gain a +1 size bonus to their AC and attack rolls, but suffer a –1 penalty to their CMD and on combat maneuver checks, a +2 size bonus on Fly checks, and a +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.

(Nothing really special here other than the bonus to Fly)

Pixieling: Some munvari never grow any larger than a house cat. These pixielings, as they are called by their Small-sized cousins are Tiny. This doesn’t change the munvari’s Ability scores, but it does reduce its base speed to 10 ft. but does not reduce Flight speed. Like other tiny creatures, pixielings take up a space of 2-1/2 feet by 2-1/2 feet, with a reach of 0. They gain a +2 size bonus to AC and attack rolls, but suffer a -2 penalty to CMB and CMD. Finally, being Tiny grants pixielings a +8 racial bonus on Stealth checks.

(This is intended to be an "alternate racial trait" but also something that I'd be taking)

Base Speed: Slow; Munvari have a base speed of 20 feet.

Flight: Munvari have a fly speed of twice their base land speed with average maneuverability. Having a natural flight speed gives Munvari a +8 racial bonus to all Fly checks.

Senses: Munavris have Darkvision 60 feet. Furthermore, they have low-light vision.

Soul Gems (Ex): The mind of a munvari is as sharp as that of any flesh-and-blood soul, but it is more portable. The animating, vital principle of a munvari — its will, its personality, and its mind—are retained in one or (for an extra 8,000 gp) more soul gems. These are the elements that retain an individual’s spirit or soul, and memories, and their destruction means the true death of that munvari. It can be raised from the dead as a human generally is. Soul gems can be taken from a dead munvari and read by others. This is a lengthy process and viewed with some alarm by most, since it is akin to peering into the most private details of a creature’s life. Installing an existing, used soul gem in a munvari requires at least one week for the recipient to remember and understand the results. The process is dangerous, requiring a Fortitude save (DC 10 + one-half level of dead munvari + Cha modifier of dead munvari) to succeed. At the GM's discretion, the soul gem taken from another munvari may give skill bonuses, feats, or special abilities. No more than +2 / 5 ranks the dead munvari had in their Intelligence modifier highest ranked skills. Thus if they have a +2 Intelligence modifier, and had one skill with 13 ranks, that skill would grant the implantee a +4 bonus to that given skill whereas the next highest skill has 8 ranks, so they would only gain a +2 in that skill.. Feats are granted at the GM's discretion. Furthermore, an individual Munvari may not have more than 1/4 their level in Soul Gems implanted at any given time (likely modifiable by classes / prestige classes and Feats).. The real benefit of this is more for 'recording' one's life and soul memories, and as a focus to bring them back than it is for minmaxers to utilize someone elses lived experiences to maximize their own abilities... That would be considered reprehensible by munvari civilization due to the inclination that some individual may seek out and intentionally kill their own kind for 'improve' themselves. "Blank" soul gems implanted into a munvari act as 'backups' for the 'primary' soul gem, and if necessary, may be used to cover all monetary, and foci requirements for any form of resurrections. If used in this manner, it is burned out and needs to be replaced at the cost of 8,000 gp, and recharged over the course of several months. If a munvari is killed that has multiple soul gems, and they are seperated, multiple Munvari with the same 'soul' may be attempted to be resurrected, but the 'conscious' munvari mind jumps from body to body. (This acts similarly to the spell clone for most game purposes. Though to make that more controllable, read as "only one conscious body may be up and active at any given time")

(This is super thematically exciting and I absolutely love it... It's something I'd want to keep basically intact. This is not covered in Advanced Race Guide. Anyone willing to try and give a number?)

Cosmic Mind (Ex): A Munvari gets a +2 racial bonus on Knowledge and Spellcraft checks. A Munvari spellcaster who would store spells in a spellbook or familiar instead stores those spells in its mind (but must expend the normal resources to learn new spells) in it's soul gem. This ability gives them 1 mana per level.

(This is also something that I super love and want to keep basically as is. This is not covered in Advanced Race Guide. Anyone willing to try and give a number?)

Healing Factor (Ex): A Munvari has a greater form of Fast Healing granting healing each round equal to 1 / 4 levels (minimum 1) + Con Mod (minimum 0). They also regrow any lost limbs in 1d4 days.

(This is likely one of the more 'powerful' abilities, as it scales.. but it shouldn't be too terrible.. Someone focused on Con could make a huge impact, but if we take the bonus granted from Abilities, that's not as much of an issue.. Unfortunately, Con often gets dumped for other stats that are usually considered more important for a particular build.. I could modify this so that those that take Rage and the like don't get even more healing when they Rage... but this race isn't really meant for raging, or melee for that matter. This is not covered in Advanced Race Guide. Anyone willing to try and give a number?)

Eldritch Blast (Spl): Munvari are so much a part of magic, they have an inherent understanding and use of Eldritch blast special ability. They deal 2d6 points of damage, and follow all the normal rules of Eldritch Blast. This stacks if they decide to purchase it as they level up.

(One of my absolutely favorite class abilities... I figured if this race is to have a level adjustment / high CR that it'd give them an option for games where they start off with basically no weapon proficiencies (my current game). I don't actually remember if the Advanced Race Guide allowed you to give 'class' specific abilities to races, even if there are plenty of races throughout the Bestiaries that have Class specific abilities).

Repletion (Su): A munvari can sustain his body without need of food or water. If he spends 1 mana point, he does not need to eat or drink for 24 hours.

(Unless it's a plot device, this should never come into play and is basically here for thematic purposes. As a spell-like ability, this can be easily figured out)

Long-Lived (Ex): Munvari live for thousands of years and only die from 'outside circumstances'; they gain no benefit or penalty from aging and are immune to magical aging effects.

(As with Repletion, this likely will never come into any actual use, and as it grants no bonuses, or penalties, seems really very neutral. This is not covered in Advanced Race Guide. Anyone willing to try and give a number?)

[Deepbluediver]

I'll be honest, this sounds more like a monster (or just a creature if you don't want the negative connotations) than it does a balanced, playable race. Alternatively it sounds like a BUILD or maybe a class, but again not a RACE.
If you want to try and play something like this, rather than giving it LA (which is occasionally workable for a melee-beatstick character but IMO is straight up AWFUL for spellcasters) either make the race substantially weaker and then get the rest of the attributes you want from your class, or make it a certain kind of creature (construct or outsider sound like possibilities) with effectively a race-as-a-class, including HD, and then find a GM who's running a mid-to-high level campaign where you can test it out alongside other characters with strong abilities and pre-existing levels.



'Cause the impression I'm getting here is that this isn't a RACE so much as it is a PROTAGONIST. Which is fine, we all want to feel cool and special, but you need to remember that D&D is a group-activity, where you're coordinating with the GM to tell EVERYONE's story, and all the other players also want to feel cool and special and be the protagonist, too. With races, in theory you could make a whole party out of one race. And while players usually don't, if everyone in your group sees you playing one of these really cool magical-crystal spellcasters, and they want to play one, too, how do you picture that going? I don't see it going well, certainly not as well as any of the standard races who could be played like that.

[Deepbluediver]

Replying a second time because I think this is an interesting concept and I don't want to discourage you, but I also really don't think it works as a "race", as listed.
I'm going to try and develop something that I think could be picked up as an LA +1 or maybe even +0 race but that would still be unique and interesting and feel fun to play, commenting on your ideas with that I think works and doesn't work about them, and why, and hopefully what you could do to modify it to be more balanced but still appealing (notes in italics)

Intro/Fluffy-mechanics: No one knows where exactly Munvari come from- outsiders from a distant plane, some long-forgotten wizard's attempt at immortality, or even stray thoughts from the god(s) of magic themselves. What Munvari ARE is a crystaline race heavily steeped in, and inherently, magical. The core of each Munvari is unique crystal with an appearance and physical characteristics similar to semiprecious gemstones. This crystal holds the Munvari's mind & soul, and forms a body around it out of loose physical matter and etheric energy. All Munvari are innate spellcasters with an unrivaled flexibility in the spells they can choose to learn.


Abilities: +2 Int, +2 Dex, -2 Con

I know you said that you wanted these guys to be "stealthy", but aside from the Dexterity boost and Small/Tiny size, I don't really see anything that leans in to that. I would reduce the ability-score bonuses, since those are things people tend to notice first and often think are OP, and let an Munvari who wants to be stealthy simply pick spells that aim in that direction.
Also since none of these guys are ever going to be a melee-beatstick the -2 to Strength is basically a non-penalty penalty and doesn't balance things out.

Type: Munvari are sentient and free-willed, but count as Constructs instead of Humanoids; they have a unique blend of racial charateristics.

If you don't like them being Constructs, how about Elementals?

HD: d8

Size: varies
As Munvari age (level up) and their soul & mind grow stronger, they accumulate extra material from the environment around them- indeed a Munvari that can't grow in size can't grow in power. While they start out about the size of housecats, the older ones will be quite substantial.
Level 1-2: Tiny
Level 3-5: Small
Level 6-9: Medium
Level 10-14: Large
level 15+: Huge

I get that being small (the word, not the size category) is advantageous for spellcasters and disadvantageous for melee-heroes, but making a Small race with an option to to be Tiny (which you admit you will be taking and has no drawbacks) feels to me like a cheesy kind of minmaxing. Also if it's an optional variant, what are you trading off or why would you NOT choose it?
If you want to play around with size, this is something I feel is flavorful and unique. It gives you some of that advantage at lower levels, and as you level up if it becomes and issue you can probably choose to compensate with magic.

Speed: Due to their somewhat random nature Munvari are not swift when it comes to locomotion, though once against they can compensate with versatility from their inherently magical nature.
A Munvari's base speed is 20 ft., though at creation each Munvari selects one additional form of movement which it can use for a number of rounds equal to 10+level (all speeds remain the same as base-speed).
Earthglide- allowing the Munvari to move through solid objects.
Swim Speed- due to their quasi-construct nature, Munvari can easily hold their breath for an equal amount of time
Levitation- allows the Munvari to float through the air

Again, giving your race a slow movement speed is not a balancing penalty if you give them at-will flight that moves twice as fast. If there's no limit to flight, why would you ever walk? I've tried to keep some of that flavor here without making Munvari totally unbound from the ground. If you need more levitation than this, pick up a flight spell.

Senses: ???

I don't really object to Darkvision, I'm just not sure where it's coming from or why it's necessary, except to give your race another passive ability so they don't need to burn spell-slots (Light, etc). Maybe this is why I picture this race always living in caves- was that intentional?
If you weren't picture this race as subterranean, I would stick with Low-light vision. If you were, I like to pair Darkvision with some kind of light-sensitivity in full daylight so it doesn't feel like an unbalanced bonus. Alternatively give them something like infra-vision or echo-location if you think that works better for their background.

Healing Factor: [maybe, or swap with something else]

In my experience, there's only a single amount of fast-healing that matters; none vs. any. Fast-healing tends to be overvalued, and while it SOUNDS kinda cool, from what I've seen it's outpaced by damage in nearly every instance. Even at the extreme high-end it only extends combat by a single round or gives you one more extra hit that you can tank.
It's real value is that it lets you restore yourself to full health outside of combat without expending resources, and if that's the goal then you don't need a number- it's just FAST HEALING: Yes.

Plus since this race is basically spellcasters, they don't have a huge HP pool to begin with, and I don't foresee them tanking lots of hits anyway.

If you wanted something to represent Munvari being tough to kill or being able to pull themselves back together, I would recommend Damage Reduction, Spell Resistance, or a Healing Surge (basically instantaneous healing that you choose to activate a certain number of times per day) instead.

Repletion: Munvari don't eat or drink (or breathe) in the usual sense, but they still rely on absorbing material from the environment around them, and if deprived of this they will effectively starve. The rules are the same as they would be fore starvation for a normal character, except that they occur only 1/10th as quickly.

I don't really object to your version, but since I made these guys something inhuman(oid) I was trying to keep it internally consistent. And again not just make it feel like they can be immortal at will- with this tweak it's possibly to kill a Munvari through depredation, but its difficult.

Long-Lived/Timeless Body: Munvari don't age in the traditional sense and are effectively immortal. Being living creatures with a mind & a soul, though, they eventually start to feel wearied by the world, and the eldest and greatest Munvari undergo what is effectively ritual suicide, and is both a time of mourning and celebration in Munvari culture. The Munvari's crystal is shattered in an elaborate ceremony which maintains a portion of their essence, and a group of new 1HD Munvari are born from their elder's remains (1 per HD of the dead Munvari).

The fluffy bits here are inspired partly by Tolkien/LotR, where elves can't die of old-age alone but can choose to die if they experience great grief or sorrow to basically give their souls a chance to rest in the Undying Lands until they can be reborn into new bodies. And I think it's a cool concept that doesn't get brought up enough for nigh-immortal mortal creatures in various media.

Eldritch Blast: [remove]

I'm guessing this is here because you recognize that small creatures do bad melee damage but a spellcaster with LA wouldn't have a decent amount of spellslots to get through starting encounters. So this is basically a magical attack that's size-independent. There are other ways to solve this problem IMO (see below) that don't need to step on the Warlock's shoes, especially since these guys don't otherwise feel very demonic.

Steeped in Magic: A 1HD Munvari knows two level 0 spells (curate a custom list if you like) that it can cast at will (unlimited times per day). A Munvari learns another level 0 spell at level 3, and every third level after (6th, 9th, 12th, etc).

Munvari are inherently magical, and instead of leveling up a PC class their racial HD give them spellslots like a Wizard* as they grow older and stronger. Their spellcasting ability is Intelligence. A Munvari learn 2 new spells every time it gains a HD, is treated as having the Eschew Materials feat, and can re-learn spells when it grows like a Sorcerer would.
[just to be clear, Munvari gain racial HD from experience just like a regular PC with class-levels would normally level up.]

Or alternatively a Sorcerer*, if you prefer that spellslot progression.

Cosmic Mind: Due to their nature as an almost solidified essence of magic, Munvari do not have a fixed spell-list like most classes- they can dabble in nearly any kind of magic or choose to specialize as suits each Munvari's temperament. What this means is that when learning spells a Munvari can pick any spell from any Core Class, as well as any other class that your GM approves for use in your game.

This is the plum that I'm throwing into the fruit-salad to make up for all the other nerfs- unparalleled versatility. Any Munvari can be anything it wants to be, essentially, and it adds desirability without being a straight boost in power.

Soul Gems: [Every time I try to read your original version I feel my eyes start to water. It's not bad, it just feels a little messy and overly-complicated and very interesting to tell a STORY but hard to make work in a game with other people. I'm going to break this down into a few separate pieces so it can be discussed separately as needed. I'm not really sure of the point being able to basically copy your character over and over again except that it's ANOTHER free spell/passive ability for your custom race and also makes you inherently able to say "oh I'm not dead I'll just swap to another body somewhere", which IMO removes a lot of the tension from the game and feels like a kind of "screw you!" move from spellcasters to melee.]
The mind & soul of a Munvari is contained in it's crystal core, and is much like that of other mortal creatures but more portable and resilient, and can be partitioned out to a degree.

If a Munvari is reduced to 0 (zero) HP, it's "body" dissolves into an ash-like substance but the Munvari itself is still alive (effectively hibernating) So long as the crystal is intact it will eventually pull itself back together- if left on a solid floor or other place without much loose material the process is slow, taking 1d8xHD months (possibly totaling years for powerful Munvari). If the crystal is lying in loose dirt or clay the process is faster, taking 1d6xHD weeks. If buried in a mound that is a mix of sediment and organic mater and "fed" a steady stream of low-level magic the process can be reduced to mere 1d4xHD days.
If the gem is shattered, the Munvari is killed, but they can be resurected like a regular humanoid if all the pieces of the gem are kept together (the process is the same as raising a living being from a corpse).

A hibernating Munvari's soul-gem can be read by another Munvari, though the process is difficult usually done only if the need is great, since it involves digging through an individuals most private thoughts and moments. The process takes about 10 minutes per attempt and requires a DC15 Charisma or Wisdom check. On a failure the reader receives a random, useless piece of trivia; if they fail by 5 or more the memory retrieved is particularly traumatic and they take 1 point of Charisma or Wisdom damage (whichever stat you rolled for the check). On a success you retrieve information that can be summed up in a few sentences; more details or answering a different question requires another attempt.
Your original version said the process was "dangerous" but didn't give any kind of penalty for failure.

A Munvari can also separate out certain abilities and share them with others. It takes about a day for the Munvari to create a crystal-shard (and expel it from it's body), which contains either all their proficiency in a single Skill, insight how to cast a particular Spell, expertise of a single Feat, or detailed information of a particular event (i.e. the fluff option). The giving Munvari loses this knowledge so long as the shard is separate from it's body, but another Munvari gains that ability when they absorb the shard (a process taking about 1 minute).
In Munvari society this is usually done for convenience or out of necessity, and not for commerce- trying to "buy" shards from Munvari is considered rude, usually.
These shards can also be used by other creatures, but need to be inserted into a magical artifact (it's form can be almost anything, such as a crown, gauntlet, necklace, etc) costing 15k gold to produce.
Finally the shards can outlive the death of the Munvari that created them, which is used by some Munvari societies as a form of legacy that keeps important knowledge from being lost.

I tried to keep the most interesting bits and make them somewhat more streamlined, while only ditching the stuff that I found most objectionable. If you really want your Munvari to have access to backup duplicates, just use the Clone spell.



Anyhow, I think that's most of my thoughts for now. I've got some errands to run but I hope you find something in here that's usable. It was a fun challenge.



Edit: One final thought- I was mostly pulling from your updated post; I didn't go through the first one in detail. But since I basically made a class-without-class-features if there was anything you really wanted to add back in, those are the sorts of choices that you could pick as you level up. Maybe every few levels/HD you add something off that second list or power-up a feature that I nerfed. That way it spreads the benefits out over your entire progression instead of frontloading it all and then needing a massive LA to compensate.

[AOKost]

Let me start by saying thank you for such an in depth breakdown and such great suggestions! I can't wait to go through them and give my thoughts in reponse, and maybe we can come up with a critique we both like, or at the very least, a bit better of an understanding why I've made the decisions I have..


Replying a second time because I think this is an interesting concept and I don't want to discourage you, but I also really don't think it works as a "race", as listed.
I'm going to try and develop something that I think could be picked up as an LA +1 or maybe even +0 race but that would still be unique and interesting and feel fun to play, commenting on your ideas with that I think works and doesn't work about them, and why, and hopefully what you could do to modify it to be more balanced but still appealing (notes in italics)

Intro/Fluffy-mechanics: No one knows where exactly Munvari come from- outsiders from a distant plane, some long-forgotten wizard's attempt at immortality, or even stray thoughts from the god(s) of magic themselves. What Munvari ARE is a crystaline race heavily steeped in, and inherently, magical. The core of each Munvari is unique crystal with an appearance and physical characteristics similar to semiprecious gemstones. This crystal holds the Munvari's mind & soul, and forms a body around it out of loose physical matter and etheric energy. All Munvari are innate spellcasters with an unrivaled flexibility in the spells they can choose to learn.

I love the fluff! I hadn't even gotten that far.. I can always make the race fit whatever vision I have besides tiny flying beings interested in crafting, knowledge and relatively xenophobic.. I hadn't really gotten around to thinking about it beyond 'they don't like to have intruders into their communities, and keep the secrets and lore they find to themselves, and those that go into the world seeking new knowledge are seen as 'brave souls' that are not really trusted within their communities ever again, for they left, and none can know if those who leave are those that return' (Think of the Bene Tleilaxu from Frank Herbt's Dune series). If I use your fluff, and make them a 'crystaline race' as you suggest, it'd be nothing to make them vulnerable to sonic, thus taking double damage from sonic attacks and effects.



Abilities: +2 Int, +2 Dex, -2 Con

I know you said that you wanted these guys to be "stealthy", but aside from the Dexterity boost and Small/Tiny size, I don't really see anything that leans in to that. I would reduce the ability-score bonuses, since those are things people tend to notice first and often think are OP, and let an Munvari who wants to be stealthy simply pick spells that aim in that direction.
Also since none of these guys are ever going to be a melee-beatstick the -2 to Strength is basically a non-penalty penalty and doesn't balance things out.

I wouldn't the decrease to Dexterity, and even replacing the penalty from Strength to Constitution... If the race got any further bonuses than those stated from becoming Tiny... I know that as an 'alternate racial trait' I'd have to trade something for it.. I was thinking 1d6 of Eldritch Blast, but something else could work as a trade too. As far as 'nothing here seems stealth oriented..' As I'm sure you noticed (as you stated later that you saw the original post at the top) there were several options that I'd love to have to help this race be more stealthy, but 'dropped' them as being overly superfluous considering the plethora of things I'm trying desperately to keep.. Getting back to the Eldritch Blast for a second.. You're not wrong... I did give it to them because of the possibility of being required to run around for a seemingly stupidly long time with potentially an extremely limited spell selection, and thus need a little more 'staying power'


Type: Munvari are sentient and free-willed, but count as Constructs instead of Humanoids; they have a unique blend of racial characteristics.

If you don't like them being Constructs, how about Elementals?

I wouldn't mind at all making them Living Constructs, but I was trying hard not to give them anything more than they're already getting... Changing their base type will drastically alter how spells and effects will affect them... So I'm not opposed, even to full Construct, but that's a lot of immunities just given based on Race, and way more powerful than I'm looking for off hand


HD: d8

This would be fine, lets figure out what the base Race is first... If it's a Construct, that's usually d10 and no Con bonus, but I usually like replace Constructs Con bonus with their Strength modifier as a houserule..


Size: varies
As Munvari age (level up) and their soul & mind grow stronger, they accumulate extra material from the environment around them- indeed a Munvari that can't grow in size can't grow in power. While they start out about the size of housecats, the older ones will be quite substantial.
Level 1-2: Tiny
Level 3-5: Small
Level 6-9: Medium
Level 10-14: Large
level 15+: Huge

I get that being small (the word, not the size category) is advantageous for spellcasters and disadvantageous for melee-heroes, but making a Small race with an option to to be Tiny (which you admit you will be taking and has no drawbacks) feels to me like a cheesy kind of minmaxing. Also if it's an optional variant, what are you trading off or why would you NOT choose it?
If you want to play around with size, this is something I feel is flavorful and unique. It gives you some of that advantage at lower levels, and as you level up if it becomes and issue you can probably choose to compensate with magic.

This... This I'm not actually very interested in. As you've already stated, being larger basically doesn't advantage casters in the slightest.. thus I have no problem making them Small, and even getting smaller! I actually would and do see this race being potentially roaming Warlocks.. There are plenty of homebrew Warlock veriants that don't necessarily need to be demonic, or 'dark and edgy' to be a great character..


Speed: Due to their somewhat random nature Munvari are not swift when it comes to locomotion, though once against they can compensate with versatility from their inherently magical nature.
A Munvari's base speed is 20 ft., though at creature each Munvari selects one additional form of movement which it can use for a number of rounds equal to 10+level (all speeds remain the same as base-speed).
Earthglide- allowing the Munvari to move through solid objects.
Swim Speed- due to their quasi-construct nature, Munvari can easily hold their breath for an equal amount of time
Levitation- allows the Munvari to float through the air

Again, giving your race a slow movement speed is not a balancing penalty if you give them at-will flight that moves twice as fast. If there's no limit to flight, why would you ever walk? I've tried to keep some of that flavor here without making Munvari totally unbound from the ground. If you need more levitation than this, pick up a flight spell.

This is actually very intriguing, but the limitations are drastically way too overwhelming... at level 20, you can do for 3 minutes, what spells and Special Abilities are letting you do for drastically extended periods of time.. I mean, I get limiting Fly at lower levels, but by level 5ish, the ability to fly becomes rather available to those that can afford it..


Senses: ???

I don't really object to Darkvision, I'm just not sure where it's coming from or why it's necessary, except to give your race another passive ability so they don't need to burn spell-slots (Light, etc). Maybe this is why I picture this race always living in caves- was that intentional?
If you weren't picture this race as subterranean, I would stick with Low-light vision. If you were, I like to pair Darkvision with some kind of light-sensitivity in full daylight so it doesn't feel like an unbalanced bonus. Alternatively give them something like infra-vision or echo-location if you think that works better for their background.

I hadn't really intentionally meant to make them sound subteranian, but that would make sense why they would have Darkvision.. but I feel there are literally dozens of playable races that don't necessarily have a 'good' reason to have Darkvision, but do anyway.. I don't mind not having the 'see in magical darkness and greater darkness' part, and I don't mind reducing the distance from 120, as that is among the most distant for races to see, and they usually have a light-sensitivity, or outright light-blindness and I'd rather not lol my own eyes hurt just thinking about it XD If I play as a Construct race... I believe they get Darkvision 60 just cause..


Healing Factor: [maybe, or swap with something else]

In my experience, there's only a single amount of fast-healing that matters; none vs. any. Fast-healing tends to be overvalued, and while it SOUNDS kinda cool, from what I've seen it's outpaced by damage in nearly every instance. Even at the extreme high-end it only extends combat by a single round or gives you one more extra hit that you can tank.
It's real value is that it lets you restore yourself to full health outside of combat without expending resources, and if that's the goal then you don't need a number- it's just FAST HEALING: Yes.

Plus since this race is basically spellcasters, they don't have a huge HP pool to being with, so I don't forsee them tanking lots of hits anyway.

If you wanted something to represent Munvari being tough to kill or being able to pull themselves back together, I would recommend Damage Reduction, Spell Resistance, or a Healing Surge (basically instantaneous healing that you choose to activate a certain number of times per day) instead.

You're absolutely right, and I couldn't agree with you more.. Fast healing basically only gives 'cheap' out of combat heals, and potentially automatically stabilizes you when you're at negative HP.. Other than that, it's very over rated.. At low levels, it's downright intimidating to GM's because in just a few rounds the character is fully healed...

This is far less of a problem when you consider 0-level spells are usable @will (thank you Pathfinder and Houserules), and Cure Minor Wound is a 0-level spell, allowing for full-heals between combats at low levels...

This, too, becomes far less viable the higher levels you attain and the more HP you gain...

But, you still die at negative Con score HP, regardless of your Fast Healing or Healing Factor... I mostly like it because no one else has it, and I've always wanted it, regardless of how much of a fan of Deadpool I may be ;)


Repletion: Munvari don't eat or drink (or breathe) in the usual sense, but they still rely on absorbing material from the environment around them, and if deprived of this they will effectively starve. The rules are the same as they would be fore starvation for a normal character, except that they occur only 1/10th as quickly.

I don't really object to your version, but since I made these guys something inhuman(oid) I was trying to keep it internally consistent. And again not just make it feel like they can be immortal at will- with this tweak it's possibly to kill a Munvari through depredation, but its difficult.

Not a bad suggestion at all, but if they're going to potentially be a Construct or Living Construct... this could be seen as a moot idea and be removed outright, unless you want them to have some seeming sort of drawback similar to a metabolism


Long-Lived/Timeless Body: Munvari don't age in the traditional sense and are effectively immortal. Being living creatures with a mind & a soul, though, they eventually start to feel wearied by the world, and the eldest and greatest Munvari undergo what is effectively ritual suicide, and is both a time of mourning and celebration in Munvari culture. The Munvari's crystal is shattered in an elaborate ceremony which maintains a portion of their essence, and a group of new 1HD Munvari are born from their elder's remains (1 per HD of the dead Munvari).

The fluffy bits here are inspired partly by Tolkien/LotR, where elves can't die of old-age alone but can choose to die if they experience great grief or sorrow to basically give their souls a chance to rest in the Undying Lands until they can be reborn into new bodies. And I think it's a cool concept that doesn't get brought up enough for nigh-immortal mortal creatures in various media.

This is some really great 'fluff' that I love! It would also go to explain some of their 'reproduction' methods.. You're right that what I have / had is very complicated, and that's more because someone pointed out that it could potentially be abused and I wanted to prevent that from the start... Yes, I like power, who doesn't... but I still want to be able to play with a group and now outright outshine everyone, even if I can fly and have a few tricks.. I'm not someone that likes to 'showboat' and 'steal the spotlight'.. I'm usually far more of a 'support' character but that doesn't mean that others wouldn't min-max it to the deepest layers of the abyss and back... But this also brings us back to potentially being a 'Construct' or even a Living Construct, and what that would mean to 'aging'... As a sidenote, all characters start off as the minimum age for their character / race to be considered an 'adult' and thus explaining why they have a lack of 'real world experience / levels and backstory beyond origins..


Eldritch Blast: [remove]

I'm guessing this is here because you recognize that small creatures do bad melee damage, but an spellcaster with LA wouldn't have a decent amount of spellslots to get through starting encounters. So this is basically a magical attack that's size-independent. There are other ways to solve this problem IMO (see below) that don't need to step on the Warlock's shoes, especially since these guys don't otherwise feel very demonic.

I do recognize that small and smaller critters do poorly in melee combat, and that's part of the reason I wanted to initially focus this race more on stealth and range.. I know that most Warlocks are 'demonic' but there are plenty of homebrews out there that allow you to have just about any patron you want, even yourself...

The primary reason I gave them 'free' access to a couple of eldritch blast dice is due in large part to me expecting this race to need to buy off at least a +1 level adjustment, but likely far higher.. As I like playing more of a 'support' character, I'd rather prep spells to buff my party, and control the battlefield, and then sit back and pop off a relatively negligible amount of damage from a relatively safe distance


Steeped in Magic: A 1HD Munvari knows two level 0 spells (curate a custom list if you like) that it can cast at will (unlimited times per day). A Munvari learns another level 0 spell at level 3, and every third level after (6th, 9th, 12th, etc).

Munvari are inherently magical, and instead of leveling up a PC class their racial HD give them spellslots like a Wizard* as they grow older and stronger. Their spellcasting ability is Intelligence. A Munvari learn 2 new spells every time it gains a HD, is treated as having the Eschew Materials feat, and can re-learn spells when it grows like a Sorcerer would.
[just to be clear, Munvari gain racial HD from experience just like a regular PC with class-levels would normally level up.]

Or alternatively a Sorcerer*, if you prefer that spellslot progression.

I really like this idea... And, using your suggestion, at 1st level I would select detect magic and prestigitation as they are my 2 favorite 0-level spells... One being needed to even see / feel / learn to detect that magic is even real and exists... and the other is, even in it's fluff, used as a 'practice' spell that basically all other magics are based off of... and in my campaigns games, detect magic, read magic, arcane mark, and prestidigitation are all Universal spells, not that that's relevant here..

So level 3 my character would potentially learn arcane mark

At level 6 they would likely take read magic

At level 9 they would likely take mage hand

At level 12 they would likely take mending

At level 15 they would likely take message

At level 18 they would likely take dancing lights

But beyond that, or even with that, I wouldn't include your suggestion about them automatically gaining spell progression based on their HD.. As much as I like it as a 'monster' concept, if I played it as a race, then it'd likely stack, and that's an absolute no-go..


Cosmic Mind: Due to their nature as an almost solidified essence of magic, Munvari do not have a fixed spell-list like most classes- they can dabble in nearly any kind of magic or choose to specialize as suits each Munvari's temperament. What this means is that when learning spells a Munvari can pick any spell from any Core Class, as well as any other class that your GM approves for use in your game.

This is the plum that I'm throwing into the fruit-salad to make up for all the other nerfs- unparalleled versatility. Any Munvari can be anything it wants to be, essentially, and it adds desirability without being a straight boost in power.

I've got to admit... this is increadibly juicy and extremely powerful, and goes exceptionally well with your previous suggestion making this race a natural caster of any magics... And this would potentailly solve a lot of peoples frustrations with the different forms (base class spell selections), but that's not such a problem in the game this is meant for as all magic and psionics are broken up into skills. Each Scholl and Discipline is now under its own Spellcraft (School / Discipline) tree, like Knowledge, Craft, Profession, Perform, etc. You 'specialize' by putting ranks in the appropriate school you're wanting to learn, and you must have at least a number of ranks in Spellcraft (Universal) equal to the number of ranks you want to invest in another School / Discipline. You get 1 mana (power point) for each rank in Spellcraft, cumulative plus 'bonus mana' from having a high mental modifier... This potentially does away with basically all spellcasting class entirely... But then again, the entire campaign setting is based on a Homebrew ruleset that's a 'classless, point buy' system... Likely too much of an info dump..

The primary reason for Cosmic Mind was to copy / learn your spells directly to your mind, as a wizard would normally learn and scribe them into their spellbook... Now, it's still a very good thing to keep multiple copies of your spellbooks, in multiple formats just for safe keeping, because every caster other than those that learn Eldritch Blast and Invocations as Warlocks are effectively the new "sorcerer", must refer to their spellbooks if they wish to replace or memorize their spells memorized.. With ways of modifying opponents minds / memories, it seems hypothetically possible to modify the Munvari's spells known / memorized, and thus is not a fool-proof way of keeping their spells known safe and still needing other sources to reference from time to time...


Soul Gems: [Every time I try to read your original version I feel my eyes start to water. It's not bad, it just feels a little messy and overly-complicated and very interesting to tell a STORY but hard to make work in a game with other people. I'm going to break this down into a few separate pieces so it can be discussed separately as needed. I'm not really sure of the point being able to basically copy your character over and over again except that it's ANOTHER free spell and also makes you inherently able to say "oh I'm not dead I'll just swap to another body somewhere", which IMO removes a lot of the tension from the game and feels like a kind of "screw you!" move from spellcasters to melee.]

The mind & soul of a Munvari is contained in it's crystal core, and is much like that of other mortal creatures but more portable and resilient, and can be partitioned out to a degree.

If a Munvari is reduced to 0 (zero) HP, it's "body" dissolves into an ash-like substance but the Munvari itself is still alive (effectively hibernating) So long as the crystal is intact it will eventually pull itself back together- if left on a solid floor or other place without much loose material the process is slow, taking 1d8xHD months (possibly totaling years for powerful Munvari). If the crystal is lying in loose dirt or clay the process is faster, taking 1d6xHD weeks. If buried in a mound that is a mix of sediment and organic mater and "fed" a steady stream of low-level magic the process can be reduced to mere 1d4xHD days.

If the gem is shattered, the Munvari is killed, but they can be resurected like a regular humanoid if all the pieces of the gem are kept together (the process is the same as raising a living being from a corpse).

A hibernating Munvari's soul-gem can be read by another Munvari, though the process is difficult usually done only if the need is great, since it involves digging through an individuals most private thoughts and moments. The process takes about 10 minutes per attempt and requires a DC15 Charisma check. On a failure the reader receives a random, useless piece of trivia; if they fail by 5 or more the memory retrieved is particularly traumatic and they take 1 point of Intelligence or Wisdom damage. On a success you retrieve information that can be summed up in a few sentences; more details or answering a different question requires another attempt.

Your original version said the process was "dangerous" but didn't give any kind of penalty for failure.

A Munvari can also separate out certain abilities and share them with others. It takes about a day for the Munvari to create a crystal-shard (and expel it from it's body), which contains either all their proficiency in a single Skill, knowledge of a particular Spell, or how to use a single feat. The giving Munvari loses this knowledge so long as the shard is separate from it's body, but another Munvari gains that ability when they absorb the shard (a process taking about 1 minutes).

In Munvari society this is usually done for convenience or out of necessity, and not for commerce- trying to "buy" shards from Munvari is considered rude, usually.

These shards can also be used by other creatures, but need to be inserted into a magical artifact (it's form can be almost anything, such as a crown, gauntlet, necklace, etc) costing 15k gold to produce.

Finally the shards can outlive the death of the Munvari that created them, which is used by some Munvari societies as a form of legacy that keeps important knowledge from being lost.

Soul Gems is very convoluted, you're not wrong... I love it in concept and tried to incorporate it into this race, but also modified it trying to make sure it wouldn't be abused.. I got carried away when thinking about the possibility of multiple Soul Gems being 'resurrected' at the same time, but should have just nixed that idea outright from the get go.. It would be neat, but if it were to be, that character should be under the GM's control and would just 'go offline' from time to time as their soul left that body for another... likely having their HP divided among each body... but I digress.

"Your original version said the process was "dangerous" but didn't give any kind of penalty for failure. You're absolutely right... I honestly didn't know what to put as a penalty, and then forgot about it later as I moved on XD Good catch!

Your re-write of Soul Gems is beautiful! I'm going to keep it as is!


I tried to keep the most interesting bits and make them somewhat more streamlined, while only ditching the stuff that I found most objectionable. If you really want your Munvari to have access to backup duplicates, just use the Clone spell.

Anyhow, I think that's most of my thoughts for now. I've got some errands to run but I hope you find something in here that's usable. It was a fun challenge.



Edit: One final thought- I was mostly pulling from your updated post; I didn't go through the first one in detail. But since I basically made a class-without-class-features if there was anything you really wanted to add back in, those are the sorts of choices that you could pick as you level up. Maybe every few levels/HD you add something off that second list or power-up a feature that I nerfed. That way it spreads the benefits out over your entire progression instead of frontloading it all and then needing a massive LA to compensate.


I'd rather them work towards gaining and using clone only if and when they get it, but otherwise, I'm going to use your Soul Gems as you wrote it. It is a beautiful re-write!

Thank you again for your thorough breakdown and suggestions! I really appreciate them! They were well thought out, and while it wasn't exactly the direction I was intending, you cane up with a ton of great fluff I'm going to use :D

[AOKost]

Okay, so I was saying "Living Construct" which is a 3.5 term, and in PF Advanced Race Guide, it's called "half-construct" but it will work for my purposes here:

Intro/Fluffy-mechanics: No one knows where exactly Munvari come from- outsiders from a distant plane, some long-forgotten wizard's attempt at immortality, or even stray thoughts from the god(s) of magic themselves. What Munvari ARE is a crystaline race heavily steeped in, and inherently, magical. The core of each Munvari is unique crystal with an appearance and physical characteristics similar to semiprecious gemstones. This crystal holds the Munvari's mind & soul, and forms a body around it out of loose physical matter and etheric energy. All Munvari are innate spellcasters with an unrivaled flexibility in the spells they can choose to learn.

Half-Construct (7 RP)

A half-construct race is a group of creatures that are artificially enhanced or have parts replaced by constructed mechanisms, be they magical or mechanical.
A half-construct race has the following features:


Half-constructs gain a +2 racial bonus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Racial-Bonus) on saving throws against disease (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/diseases), mind-affecting effects, poison (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison), and effects that cause either exhaustion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Exhausted) or fatigue (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Fatigued).
Half-constructs cannot be raised or resurrected.
Half-constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep, unless they want to gain some beneficial effect from one of these activities. This means that a half-construct can drink potions (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/potions) to benefit from their effects and can sleep in order to regain spells, but neither of these activities is required for the construct (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Construct) to survive or stay in good health.

Small (0 RP)

Small races gain a +1 size bonus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Size-Bonus) to their AC, a +1 size bonus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Size-Bonus) on attack rolls (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack-Roll), a –1 penalty on combat maneuver (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers) checks and to their CMD (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuver-Defense), and a +4 size bonus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Size-Bonus) on Stealth (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/stealth) checks. Small races have a space of 5 feet by 5 feet and a reach of 5 feet.

Or, replacing 1d6 of Eldritch Blast, the character can take the Tiny Alternate Racial Trait:

Tiny (4 RP)

Prerequisites: Aberration (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Aberration), construct (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Construct), dragon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Dragon), fey (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Fey), outsider (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Outsider) (native (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Native)), or plant (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Plant) type.
Modifiers: Tiny creatures gain a +2 size bonus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Size-Bonus) to Dexterity (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Dexterity-Dex-) and a –2 size penalty (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Size-Bonus) to Strength (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Strength-Str-). Tiny races gain a +2 size bonus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Size-Bonus) to their AC, a +2 size bonus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Size-Bonus) on attack rolls (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack-Roll) and fly checks, a –2 penalty on combat maneuver (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers) checks and to their CMD (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuver-Defense), and a +8 size bonus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Size-Bonus) on Stealth (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/stealth) checks. Tiny characters take up a space of 2-1/2 feet by 2-1/2 feet, so up to four of these characters can fit into a single square. Tiny races typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack it in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attacks-of-Opportunity) from the opponent. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. Other creatures can move through those squares without provoking attacks of opportunity (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attacks-of-Opportunity). Tiny creatures typically cannot flank (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Flanking) an enemy.

Note: And now, using this, instead of what was written, I can possibly gain an additional +2 Dex, at the cost of a potential further -2 to Strength for -4, or a -2 to Strength -2 to Constitution...

Base Speed Quality

The next step is to pick the base speed quality for your race. Some racial traits can increase speed or grant other movement types, but these traits usually require the normal speed quality as a prerequisite. You have the following options.

Slow Speed (–1 RP)

The race has a base speed of 20 feet.

Ability Score Modifier Quality

Advanced (4 RP)

Prerequisites: Advanced or monstrous power level.
Modifiers: Pick either mental or physical ability scores. Members of this race gain a +2 bonus to all of those scores, a +4 bonus to one score of the other type, and a –2 penalty to one other ability score of the other type.

Note: This doesn't easily fit what I want / need from it, so keeping the same cost, I'll gladly take the -2 penalty to Strength, less so to Constitution, taking a +4 to Dexterity and +2 to Intelligence... Otherwise it will cost 5 or 6 RP to get the same thing, or 'better' with no penalty...

Defense Racial Traits

Advanced Traits (Defense)

Monstrous Traits (Defense)

Fast Healing (6 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race regain 1 hit point each round. Except for where noted here, fast healing (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Fast_Healing_Ex) is just like natural healing. Fast healing (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Fast-Healing-Ex-) does not restore hit points (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Hit-Points) lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, nor does it allow a creature to regrow lost body parts. Fast healing (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Fast-Healing-Ex-) continues to function (even at negative hit points (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Hit-Points)) until a member of this race dies, at which point the effects of fast healing (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Fast_Healing_Ex) immediately end.
Special: This trait can be taken multiple times. Each time fast healing (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Fast_Healing_Ex) is taken, its cost increases by 1 RP.

Note: We've already discussed how Fast Healing is very over-rated, and my Healing Factor is just a very slightly upgraded Fast Healing... So, Fast healing should be 3 RP and Healing Factor 5 or 6 RP?

Feat and Skill Racial Traits

Magical Racial Traits

Lightbringer (2 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race are immune to light-based blindness and dazzle effects, and are treated as one level higher when determining the effects of any light-based spells or effects they cast (including spell-like (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Spell-Like-Abilities-Sp-) and supernatural (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Supernatural-Abilities-Su-) abilities). If a member of this race has an Intelligence (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Intelligence-Int-) of 10 or higher, it gains the following spell-like ability (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic#TOC-Spell-Like-Abilities-Sp-):
At Will—light (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/light)
Same, but with Prestidigitation, and Detect Magic

Note: I'll likely not even count this when counting up points later as it was more interesting than anything esle just how much 0-level at will spells cost...

Movement Racial Traits

Flight (4 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race have a fly speed of 30 feet with clumsy maneuverability.
Special: This trait can be taken more than once. For each additional 2 RP spent, the race’s fly speed increases by +10 feet, and the maneuverability improves by one step.

Note: How much to increase flight speed to multipliers of base land speed?

Breath Weapon (1 RP)

Prerequisites: Aberration (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Aberration), construct (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Construct), dragon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Dragon), humanoid (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Humanoid) (reptilian (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Reptilian)), monstrous humanoid (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Monstrous-Humanoid), or outsider (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Outsider) (native (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Native)) with ties to an elemental plane (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/the-planes#TOC-Elemental-Planes).
Benefit: Choose one of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. If the creature is an outsider (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Outsider) (native (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Native)), it must have ties to an elemental plane (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/the-planes#TOC-Elemental-Planes), and it must pick an energy that corresponds to the plane it has ties to (acid [earth (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Earth)], cold [water (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Water)], electricity [air (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Air)], or fire [fire (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Fire)]). Then pick either a 15-foot cone or a 20-foot line. Once per day, as a standard action (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Standard-Actions), members of this race can make a supernatural breath weapon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Breath-Weapon-Su-) attack that deals 1d6 points of the damage type chosen in the area chosen. All creatures within the affected area must make a Reflex (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Reflex) saving throw to avoid taking damage. The save DC against this breath weapon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Breath-Weapon-Su-) is 10 + 1/2 the user’s character level + the user’s Constitution (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Constitution-Con-) modifier. Those who succeed at the save take no damage from the attack.
Special: You can take this trait more than once. Each time you do so, the cost of this trait increases by 1 RP. When do, you can augment the breath weapon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Breath-Weapon-Su-) in the following ways (augmentations marked with an asterisk
can be taken more than once).


Extra Breath*: The member of this race can use its breath weapon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Breath-Weapon-Su-) an additional time per day.
Increased Area: Increase the cone’s size to 30 feet or the line to 50 feet.
Increased Damage*: Increase the damage by an additional d6.
Powerful Breath: The breath weapon (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Breath-Weapon-Su-) deals half damage on a failed saving throw.


Note: Replace with Eldritch Blast 2d6, or the equivalent for 3 RP, 1 for the ability to deal 1d6 out to 30 ft, 1 to extend that to 60 ft, and 1 to increase the damage die by 1d6...

Senses Racial Traits

Darkvision 60 Feet (2 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race can see in the dark up to 60 feet.

Darkvision 120 Feet (3 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race can see in the dark up to 120 feet.

Low-Light Vision (1 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race can see twice as far as a race with normal vision in conditions of dim light.


Advanced Traits (Senses)

See in Darkness (4 RP)

Prerequisites: None.
Benefit: Members of this race can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, including that created by spells such as deeper darkness (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/deeper-darkness).

Note: I didn't realize this cost so much RP wise

Long-Lived/Timeless Body: Munvari don't age in the traditional sense and are effectively immortal. Being living creatures with a mind & a soul, though, they eventually start to feel wearied by the world, and the eldest and greatest Munvari undergo what is effectively ritual suicide, and is both a time of mourning and celebration in Munvari culture. The Munvari's crystal is shattered in an elaborate ceremony which maintains a portion of their essence, and a group of new 1HD Munvari are born from their elder's remains (1 per HD of the dead Munvari).

Soul Gems: The mind & soul of a Munvari is contained in it's crystal core, and is much like that of other mortal creatures but more portable and resilient, and can be partitioned out to a degree.

If a Munvari is reduced to below negative Constitution Score HP, it's "body" dissolves into an ash-like substance but the Munvari itself is still alive (effectively hibernating). So long as the crystal is intact it will eventually pull itself back together- if left on a solid floor or other place without much loose material the process is slow, taking 1d8xHD months (possibly totaling years for powerful Munvari). If the crystal is lying in loose dirt or clay the process is faster, taking 1d6xHD weeks. If buried in a mound that is a mix of sediment and organic mater and "fed" a steady stream of low-level magic the process can be reduced to mere 1d4xHD days.

If the gem is shattered, the Munvari is killed, but they can be resurected like a regular humanoid if all the pieces of the gem are kept together (the process is the same as raising a living being from a corpse).

A hibernating Munvari's soul-gem can be read by another Munvari, though the process is difficult usually done only if the need is great, since it involves digging through an individuals most private thoughts and moments. The process takes about 10 minutes per attempt and requires a DC15 Charisma check. On a failure the reader receives a random, useless piece of trivia; if they fail by 5 or more the memory retrieved is particularly traumatic and they take 1 point of Intelligence or Wisdom damage. On a success you retrieve information that can be summed up in a few sentences; more details or answering a different question requires another attempt.

A Munvari can also separate out certain abilities and share them with others. It takes about a day for the Munvari to create a crystal-shard (and expel it from it's body), which contains either all their proficiency in a single Skill, knowledge of a particular Spell, or how to use a single feat. The giving Munvari loses this knowledge so long as the shard is separate from it's body, but another Munvari gains that ability when they absorb the shard (a process taking about 1 minutes).

In Munvari society this is usually done for convenience or out of necessity, and not for commerce- trying to "buy" shards from Munvari is considered rude, usually.

These shards can also be used by other creatures, but need to be inserted into a magical item / artifact (it's form can be almost anything, such as a crown, gauntlet, necklace, etc) costing 15k gold to produce.

Finally the shards can outlive the death of the Munvari that created them, which is used by some Munvari societies as a form of legacy that keeps important knowledge from being lost.

Note: (Slightly modified from the original)

Cosmic Mind (Ex):A Munvari gets a +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft checks. A Munvari spellcaster who would store spells in a spellbook or familiar or anywhere else instead stores those spells in its mind (but must expend the normal resources to learn new spells) or in other words, in it's soul gem. This ability gives them 1 mana per level.

So, not counting Improved Darkvision, See in Darkness or the 'bonus spells', and counting Tiny as the cost of Breath Weapon, I've got about 26 points... Any suggestions on how much Long-Lived, Cosmic Mind and Soul Gems should cost? It is interesting to see that it only costs 1 extra RP to extend Darkvision from 60 to 120 and not have any penalties associated with light-sensitivity or light-blindness.

[AOKost]

I found what I remembered was similar to Cosmic Mind

... eidetic spellcaster (Dragon #357 89) eliminates the wizard's familiar but grants the wizard the ability to prepare spells, know spells from leveling up, and know spells learned from other's spellbooks (scrolls go unmentioned) without needing a spellbook at all..

I wanted to have something like that as a racial ability, but if they have an eidetic memory, then it only makes sense they're more likely to remember things when using Knowledge skills..

[Deepbluediver]

I wish you the best of luck!

When I was writing my original response I repeatedly thought to myself "is this to much? will the OP take offense that I'm going too far?". So if there's ANY part of it that you find helpful, then it was time well spent. And if there's any part of it you don't like for any reason, then by all means jettison it and never look back.

Like I said, the concept it very interesting and could be really neat for storytelling, I'm just kinda unsure how to make it work as a balanced race that anyone can choose at any time. If I were GM, I would probably require any player to get special permission before letting them play a race like this.
But I like your ideas, and I will keep this thread in mind for inspiration for any of my future homebrew.

#thumbsup

[AOKost]

I wish you the best of luck!

When I was writing my original response I repeatedly thought to myself "is this to much? will the OP take offense that I'm going too far?". So if there's ANY part of it that you find helpful, then it was time well spent. And if there's any part of it you don't like for any reason, then by all means jettison it and never look back.

Like I said, the concept it very interesting and could be really neat for storytelling, I'm just kinda unsure how to make it work as a balanced race that anyone can choose at any time. If I were GM, I would probably require any player to get special permission before letting them play a race like this.
But I like your ideas, and I will keep this thread in mind for inspiration for any of my future homebrew.

#thumbsup


Thank you for your upbeat spirit and I really appreciate everything that you've suggested, even if it's not what I was looking for, it was none the less very helpful! You're not wrong, this is a relatively powerful race, but I honestly feel its no more potentially powerful as say a "noble" drow that has a +2 level adjustment, or a plethora of other races... I tend to agree that this race, and honestly the drastic majority of races, should be approved by the DM in the game, after the player explains their goals for the character / race... Are they trying to min/max the game to the breaking point? While it's very easy to break the game by breaking the race you're playing, it's far easier to break the game through multiclassing or through specific spells, feats or special abilities... so it's all a matter of context..