Genie warlock -- Pact of the Chain or Tome?

[Ogre Mage]

Hi,

I am playing an eldritch blasting genie warlock (dao) with agonizing blast and repelling blast. He is a mountain dwarf. We rolled for attributes and used Tasha's racial attribute rules. I have Charisma 20, Constitution 16, Dexterity 14, Wisdom 13, Intelligence 11, Strength 11. We just reached 3rd level and I of course took spike growth for repelling blast shenanigans. My other spells are hex, armor of agathys and invisibility.

I am trying to decide whether to take Pact of the Chain or Pact of the Tome. I am leaning toward Pact of the Tome because we do not have an arcane ritual caster in the party. I would take the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, filling an important niche. Does that make sense? Does anyone have a strong counterargument? The rest of the party is --

Paladin 2/Draconic Sorcerer 1 (melee-focused)
Life Cleric 3 with polearm master feat
Scout Rogue 3
Great Old One Warlock 3 with Pact of the Blade

[KorvinStarmast]

Hi,

I am playing an eldritch blasting genie warlock (dao) with agonizing blast and repelling blast. He is a mountain dwarf. We rolled for attributes and used Tasha's racial attribute rules. I have Charisma 20, Constitution 16, Dexterity 14, Wisdom 13, Intelligence 11, Strength 11. We just reached 3rd level and I of course took spike growth for repelling blast shenanigans. My other spells are hex, armor of agathys and invisibility.

I am trying to decide whether to take Pact of the Chain or Pact of the Tome. I am leaning toward Pact of the Tome because we do not have an arcane ritual caster in the party. I would take the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, filling an important niche. Does that make sense? Does anyone have a strong counterargument? The rest of the party is --

Paladin 2/Draconic Sorcerer 1 (melee-focused)
Life Cleric 3 with polearm master feat
Scout Rogue 3
Great Old One Warlock 3 with Pact of the Blade
I have played both, and while I like the features of Pact of the Chain, Pact of the Tome is for me more flexible and customizable.
I'll suggest Pact of the Tome and get as one of your ritual spells ... Find familiar. Almost the best of both worlds.
It will work.

[Slingbow]

Hi,

I am playing an eldritch blasting genie warlock (dao) with agonizing blast and repelling blast. He is a mountain dwarf. We rolled for attributes and used Tasha's racial attribute rules. I have Charisma 20, Constitution 16, Dexterity 14, Wisdom 13, Intelligence 11, Strength 11. We just reached 3rd level and I of course took spike growth for repelling blast shenanigans. My other spells are hex, armor of agathys and invisibility.

I am trying to decide whether to take Pact of the Chain or Pact of the Tome. I am leaning toward Pact of the Tome because we do not have an arcane ritual caster in the party. I would take the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, filling an important niche. Does that make sense? Does anyone have a strong counterargument? The rest of the party is --

Paladin 2/Draconic Sorcerer 1 (melee-focused)
Life Cleric 3 with polearm master feat
Scout Rogue 3
Great Old One Warlock 3 with Pact of the Blade

Well first off I'd like to say congratulations on finding a DM that hasn't banned Warlocks, familiars, rituals, repelling blast, rolling for stats, or all splat books!!!
That said, which pact boon is right for you will depend on how many rituals your DM will provide for you to learn versus how creative you can be with a super familiar. Keep in mind that a Genie Warlock can have their familiar fly them around in their vessel. Whatever that's worth. I find the invisible imp or quasit is really great for spying. Tome rituals are really good for all other utility.
High five your GOO blade lock for me.

[animorte]

I had this exact same struggle when putting together... several of my Warlocks. The two things I would like to mirror are:

Tome + Book of Ancient Secrets + Find Familiar = a great path to take if you want to fill that niche for ritual casting and have the wonderful utility.
Chain for invisible/shape-shifting familiar has a lot of fun uses: scouting, carrying vessel, etc.
Bonus: Yay for all the things being allowed!
You have Genie's Wrath and Agonizing Blast, so you shouldn't need Hex for damage. That being said, my favorite Warlock I've made was GenieChainLock. I grabbed Relentless Hex invocation at level 7 (I realize you're level 3). I would cast Hex on my Imp and basically treat this combination as an all-day free Misty Step, bouncing around the battlefield and knocking enemies around the battlefield was extremely satisfying. You have reliable positioning and control at all times, almost resource free.

[Psyren]

Personally for Genielock I prefer Talisman. Not only are the thematic parallels evident (Genie of the Ring!), but there is mechanical synergy as well, because Rebuke of the Talisman gives you yet another way to weaponize the high damage Pushlock genie build.

With that said, given that your group is low on ritual casters, I would probably go Tome in your party specifically.


Well first off I'd like to say congratulations on finding a DM that hasn't banned Warlocks, familiars, rituals, repelling blast, rolling for stats, or all splat books!!!

Good grief! :smalleek:
Would... would you like a hug?

[animorte]

Good grief! :smalleek:
Would... would you like a hug?
I assume that comment might have been in light of the recent ban-list thread. Hugs are still awesome either way.

[RogueJK]

I'll suggest Pact of the Tome and get as one of your ritual spells ... Find familiar. Almost the best of both worlds.


That's exactly what I'd do. Especially in a party with a dearth of utility casters.

[tokek]

I don't disagree with the other answers but I will just throw this in:

Pact of the Chain provides big benefits on its own. In fact the biggest benefit comes with just the pact, the invocations are not really needed and most of them don't really fit that well with your build.

Whereas with Pact of the Tome you are definitely taking at least one invocation to make it worth your while. The invocations for Pact of the Tome are generally better in my opinion than for Pact of the Chain - but there is still an opportunity cost in taking them.

If you have strong reasons to be taking other invocations then Pact of the Tome will get in the way of that while Pact of the Chain will not.

[Sigreid]

I'm getting more bang for my buck out of chain than I did tome. Lil bugger makes a nice scout and with voice of the chained master, long range comm link.

[Slingbow]

Good grief! :smalleek:
Would... would you like a hug?

Yeah I think that would help. Thanks.👊

[tiornys]

That being said, my favorite Warlock I've made was GenieChainLock. I grabbed Relentless Hex invocation at level 7 (I realize you're level 3). I would cast Hex on my Imp and basically treat this combination as an all-day free Misty Step, bouncing around the battlefield and knocking enemies around the battlefield was extremely satisfying. You have reliable positioning and control at all times, almost resource free.
A word of caution on this combo--Relentless Hex requires that you can see the subject of your hex/curse, so your familiar can't benefit from one of its main perks (invisibility) while you're using this.

[Hawk7915]

Agreed with others on Tome for your specific situation. As was pointed out, Tome is a bit more Invocation-hungry than Chain but you already have a 20 CHA at 3rd level; you an afford a feat for an extra invocation if you need it.

[tokek]

Agreed with others on Tome for your specific situation. As was pointed out, Tome is a bit more Invocation-hungry than Chain but you already have a 20 CHA at 3rd level; you an afford a feat for an extra invocation if you need it.

But then you could take Ritual Caster feat

So I honestly think take the one that you think will be fun.

[diplomancer]

I usually prefer Pact of the Chain, but with your party and build I believe Tome would be better. One advantage of being mountain dwarf is that your AC is decent, so you can grab Shillelagh as one of your extra cantrips and be pretty good in melee with GFB and BB when that's necessary.

[Psyren]

But then you could take Ritual Caster feat

So I honestly think take the one that you think will be fun.

I'd say feats/ASI are more valuable than invocations (especially since you can buy that invocation with a feat if you really needed to)

[Kane0]

Pact of the Tome only if you are intending to go heavy on the rituals, otherwise Chain will be more fun for you and the party.

[Ogre Mage]

That said, which pact boon is right for you will depend on how many rituals your DM will provide for you to learn versus how creative you can be with a super familiar.

High five your GOO blade lock for me.


I spoke with my DM about this. He said that if I take the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, he will make a point to sometimes include ritual spell scrolls in the treasure. He even said to submit a list of the rituals I am most interested in.

*Tries to high five the GOO warlock but is hit by a tentacle instead*

[Slingbow]

I spoke with my DM about this. He said that if I take the Book of Ancient Secrets invocation, he will make a point to sometimes include ritual spell scrolls in the treasure. He even said to submit a list of the rituals I am most interested in.

*Tries to high five the GOO warlock but is hit by a tentacle instead*

Boom, there you go. Now you can Meld into Stone, while your friends enjoy a Tiny Hut knowing those gently reposed corpses won't re animate.

[tokek]

I'd say feats/ASI are more valuable than invocations (especially since you can buy that invocation with a feat if you really needed to)

Agreed, but I think if Ritual Spells are the thing and you still need another invocation then

Pact of the Chain + Ritual Caster + Invocation of your choice

is better than

Pact of the Tome + Book of Ancient Secrets + Feat to get that other invocation

Simply because baseline Pact of the Chain gives you so much more than baseline Pact of the Tome.

I only brought that up because someone suggested that the effective loss of invocation could easily be fixed with a Feat.

Having played a tomelock and now playing a chainlock I would say that in levels 3-10 the chainlock is generally a stronger and more flexible choice. You can swap pacts at higher levels if you really want to, using Eldritch Versatility.

[Dualight]

Important footnote is that Tome+Book of Ancient Secrets grants the ability to pick up all ritual spells and enables the casting of any eligible Warlock spells known as rituals. Meanwhile, Ritual Caster limits the acquired rituals to those of the single full-caster class chosen, and any warlock spells with the ritual tag that you know will first need to be added to your ritual book (RAW you first need to make a spell scroll of the spell before you can add them to the ritual book, since the feat only makes an allowance for adding spells when those are in written form), which makes Ritual Caster slightly more expensive (and much more time-consuming in-character), which can matter in some campaigns.
I do not have any relevant practical experience with either the feat or the invocation, so I reserve judgement, but I felt that this aspect is being overlooked in the current discussion.

[tokek]

Important footnote is that Tome+Book of Ancient Secrets grants the ability to pick up all ritual spells and enables the casting of any eligible Warlock spells known as rituals. Meanwhile, Ritual Caster limits the acquired rituals to those of the single full-caster class chosen, and any warlock spells with the ritual tag that you know will first need to be added to your ritual book (RAW you first need to make a spell scroll of the spell before you can add them to the ritual book, since the feat only makes an allowance for adding spells when those are in written form), which makes Ritual Caster slightly more expensive (and much more time-consuming in-character), which can matter in some campaigns.
I do not have any relevant practical experience with either the feat or the invocation, so I reserve judgement, but I felt that this aspect is being overlooked in the current discussion.

They are subtly different

If you multi-class there are benefits to the feat in being able to handle higher level ritual spells. That comes with the single class limitation.

If you single class then the invocation may be better. Whether its so much better is open to discussion, I've played a tomelock and I had very few non-wizard rituals in that book even by tier 4. To the best of my knowledge every Warlock ritual spell is also a Wizard spell. So the non-wizard ones were for other classes (cleric) that I found a spell scroll for. That game followed the sage advice tweet at https://www.sageadvice.eu/book-of-shadows/

So your DM might be more forgiving with Book of Shadows but they might not. Definitely check with them before assuming it.

[RogueJK]

To the best of my knowledge every Warlock ritual spell is also a Wizard spell.

Warlocks only have access to 4 Ritual spells in their base class spell list: Comprehend Languages, Unseen Servant, Illusory Script, and Contact Other Planes, all four of which are Wizard Rituals too.

Undying Patron Warlocks also get Feign Death, but that's a Wizard Ritual too.


However, Dao Genie Patron specifically also gets access to Meld Into Stone which is not a Wizard Ritual, and the Undying Patron and Fathomless Patron both get access to Silence which is not a Wizard Ritual.

[animorte]

All this complexity in ritual talk gives another point for the Chain.

In my opinion, the Tome is best when paired with Celestial and one Sorcerer level just for a crap-load of cantrips, because why not? :smallcool:

[RogueJK]

In my opinion, the Tome is best when paired with Celestial and one Sorcerer level just for a crap-load of cantrips, because why not? :smallcool:

In addition, Celestial Warlock is the best option for a non-Eldritch Blast using Warlock, being able to comfortably lean on their Sacred Flame's Xd8+CHAMOD for ranged damage. This can save you an Invocation or two (or three) right there by taking EB out of the equation, thus eliminating the "Invocation tax" of Agonizing Blast plus likely Repelling and/or Grasping too, and thereby giving you more room to afford Book of Ancient Secrets along with trying out other fun new Invocations that you normally wouldn't be able to fit in. This also removes much of the impetus for taking Hex, so you can more readily spend your Concentration elsewhere too.


Having played a non-EBing Celestial Tomelock, I can confirm that it's a refreshing change from the typical Hexing Agonizing Eldritch Blast Warlocks out there. If you've found yourself growing tired of the same old Warlock playstyle, definitely give that a try. Ignore Hex and Eldritch Blast and instead play around with some Book of Ancient Secrets rituals, some cross-class cantrips, and some less common Invocations like Misty Visions, Beast Speech, Whispers of the Grave, or Ascendant Step.

[Slingbow]

In addition, Celestial Warlock is the best option for a non-Eldritch Blast using Warlock, being able to comfortably lean on their Sacred Flame's Xd8+CHAMOD for ranged damage. This can save you an Invocation or two (or three) right there by taking EB out of the equation, thus eliminating the "Invocation tax" of Agonizing Blast plus likely Repelling and/or Grasping too, and thereby giving you more room to afford Book of Ancient Secrets along with trying out other fun new Invocations that you normally wouldn't be able to fit in. This also removes much of the impetus for taking Hex, so you can more readily spend your Concentration elsewhere too.


Having played a non-EBing Celestial Tomelock, I can confirm that it's a refreshing change from the typical Hexing Agonizing Eldritch Blast Warlocks out there. If you've found yourself growing tired of the same old Warlock playstyle, definitely give that a try. Ignore Hex and Eldritch Blast and instead play around with some Book of Ancient Secrets rituals, some cross-class cantrips, and some less common Invocations like Misty Visions, Beast Speech, Whispers of the Grave, or Ascendant Step.

Since you brought up a non EB Warlock, and since we're talking Celestial Tome pact, I feel obligated to mention that Shillelagh+GFB would also work really well with the lvl 6 CHA boost to fire damage.

And if you pick up Warcaster you can use Booming Blade for an AoO.

You know, the tactic that's getting even more popular and prone to over use than Eldritch Blast.

Personally I never ever get tired of an Invocation enhanced Eldritch Blast with an Invocation enhanced Hex, but I don't get to play very much. I also don't enjoy save bases cantrips. It's much easier to get advantage on an attack role than to grant disadvantage on a save.

And yes, the Invocation for ritual casting is far far superior to the feat that let's you get rituals from 1 class. I've played them both. So in that case I think taking the feat for an Invocation would be worth it to get Book Of Ancient Secrets, since that feature works better than Ritual Caster. And you won't need to waste points on a 13 int or 13 wis.

[RogueJK]

Since you brought up a non EB Warlock, and since we're talking Celestial Tome pact, I feel obligated to mention that Shillelagh+GFB would also work really well with the lvl 6 CHA boost to fire damage.

Yes, that's exactly what I did. It was based on Ludic's Celestial Generalist build, just without using EB. So it was a more melee-focused Tomelock, wearing Medium Armor and a Shield via the Moderately Armored feat, relying on CHA-based Shillelagh + Green Flame Blade (or occasionally Booming Blade if the situation called for it), and using Sacred Flame as a ranged option.

And since I wasn't a Bladelock and wasn't using EB, my Invocations were free to play around with the less common options.

It worked well as a solid melee frontline character and healer (similar combat playstyle to a Cleric), with great out of combat utility, and it felt good to break out of the usual Warlock mold.


I'm a big fan of the Celestial Generalist concept, having played two so far: the one described above that was more melee without even taking EB, and one that was more of a traditional EB Warlock just with the ability to contribute in melee when needed. Both worked extremely well, and were built differently enough from each other via spells, Invocations, and flavor that they didn't feel redundant.

[animorte]

with great out of combat utility, and it felt good to break out of the usual Warlock mold.
This is why it's my favorite class. All of the fun customization throughout Invocations to build whatever you want if you're not afraid break away from the EB+AB mold (but even then you don't need to).

[Greywander]

OP, here's the options you have available to you:

Pact of the Tome + Book of Ancient Secrets

+ Get access to ritual spells from all classes
+ This includes Find Familiar
+ Get extra cantrips chosen from any spell list
+ Pact of the Tome has some other great invocations to choose from (Far Scribe is pretty cool)
- A regular familiar is a lot less useful than a Pact of the Chain familiar
- You'll be down an invocation slot, and may need to burn a feat on Eldritch Adept
- You already have a cleric in the party who can cover cleric rituals

Pact of the Chain + Ritual Caster

+ Get an invisible flying familiar with hands
+ Get access to ritual spells from a single class (probably wizard)
+ The cleric in the party already covers a good chunk of rituals
+ The only recommended invocation is Voice of the Chain Master, and even that is optional
- Limited to rituals from one class
- Need to burn a feat for Ritual Caster

I can't say which is better. Instead, I would just go with whichever it was you wanted and not worry about it too much. I think either option is "close enough" that it's not worth playing a character you don't like just to support your party a little better.

One thing I'll point out is that if you go Pact of the Chain, your familiar can carry your genie vessel while the party is inside, and when they turn invisible then so should the vessel. While the rules specify how sound goes in, they don't talk about sound going out, so it's unclear if you can communicate with your familiar while inside the vessel. If you had a second warlock who took Pact of the Tome, then they could use Far Scribe to communicate with the familiar via Sending. The inside of the vessel is, I believe, it's own demiplane, so I think it counts as being on a separate plane of existence.

While we're at it, things like Bags of Holding are safe inside the genie vessel. They don't react to any and every extradimensional space, it has to do with how the extradimensional space of the Bag of Holding specifically is made, which only causes them to react to extradimensional spaces created the same way (Portable Hole, Handy Haversack).

[KorvinStarmast]

and some less common Invocations like Misty Visions, Beast Speech, Whispers of the Grave, or Ascendant Step. My pact of the chain started with beast speech at level 3; useful in that game world since it was a wilderness heavy situation.
My current tome pact uses Whispers of the Grave.
Handy.