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MrNexx
2007-12-03, 05:19 PM
Something that came to me while I was watching Voyager (likely unrelated, but you never know). I italicized the changed part.


Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed neither your strength bonus nor your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You canít add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Kaelik
2007-12-03, 05:40 PM
Because you know what we need to do. Make melee characters worse. Especially all the ones that aren't Orc Barbarians/Frenzied Berserkers.

Frosty
2007-12-03, 05:43 PM
Why nerf melee-ers? Why? :(

cupkeyk
2007-12-03, 05:45 PM
You make my halfling with weapon finesse with a kusari-kama and 14 str cry tears of blood.

Astaroth
2007-12-03, 05:47 PM
Because clearly Power Attack is presenting some serious competition with Shapechange, Gate, or Foresight/Celerity/Time Stop. Or, for that matter, with Forcecage/Cloudkill... or the good old favorite, Sleep. Make the madness stop! Henceforth, warriors can only wield a spoon. At level 10, let them take a feat to make it a rusty spoon.

Matthew
2007-12-03, 05:50 PM
MrNexx appears to be looking for a way to equalise fighting style Power Attack problem. It doesn't really matter that he is reducing their power, as Wizards still stomp the crap out of Fighters at high levels regardless.

I don't think this is a very good solution, however, as it favours high strength Fighters even further over low Strength Fighters.

To put it another way, this doesn't appear to be about Warriors versus Wizards, but Warrior Style A versus Warrior Style B.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-03, 05:51 PM
Because clearly Power Attack is presenting some serious competition with Shapechange, Gate, or Foresight/Celerity/Time Stop. Or, for that matter, with Forcecage/Cloudkill... or the good old favorite, Sleep. Make the madness stop! Henceforth, warriors can only wield a spoon. At level 10, let them take a feat to make it a rusty spoon.

(Fort save, DC 14 or contract tetanus)

Kaelik
2007-12-03, 05:53 PM
MrNexx appears to be looking for a way to equalise fighting style Power Attack problem. It doesn't really matter that he is reducing their power, as Wizards still stomp the crap out of Fighters at high levels regardless.

I don't think this is a very good solution, however, as it favours high strength Fighters even further over low Strength Fighters.

Which was my point, and the point of the halfling poster. It is doubleplusungood at changing the status quo, since power attack can be a source of damage for non-uberchargers. And all this does is encourage more optimization in the direction of insane Str scores.

Matthew
2007-12-03, 05:56 PM
Then say it more clearly. "This nerfs Melee Classes" is different to "this doesn't help balance the various Fighting Styles".

[Edit]
Otherwise it just turns into a free for all mocking of the Original Poster for daring to reduce the power of the Melee Classes.

Rigon
2007-12-03, 05:56 PM
Don't forget that they should use that spoon as an improvised weapon. that BAB of theirs is really annoying. did you see their hit dice? d10!!! like a wizard's hd times 2.5! and they don't even dump con!
down with fighter oppression! freedom for spellcasters! freedom of movement!
:smallwink:

Kaelik
2007-12-03, 06:00 PM
Then say it more clearly. "This nerfs Melee Classes" is different to "this doesn't help balance the various Fighting Styles".

Well it would probably help if you used my posts to determine what I am saying instead of attributing someone else's to me.

Catch
2007-12-03, 06:02 PM
Yes, yes we all know that spellcasting is almost always more broken than melee. That doesn't mean that melee is inherently balanced, nor does it mean that there aren't ways that melee can start smelling like over-aged gouda. Sometimes the underdog needs a leash like all the other pooches.

If Power Attack + Leap Attack + Shock Trooper is your only way of dealing consistent effective damage, you're obviously using the ToB as a coaster, or haven't yet had the good sense to go out and buy it. Either way, when you can effectively negate the primary drawback of Power Attack, it's time to fix it.

As to the OP, I don't think that limiting Power Attack to a character's Strength bonus is such a horrible idea. Assuming standard wealth, a power-attacker's Strength is going to rise somewhat in tandem with her BAB, so the curve would stay about the same. Additionally, this would also increase the value and importance of strategic buffing. On the other side of the coin, this change would definitely encourage SAD Strength builds and leave Dex-based melee classes lagging well behind, so I wouldn't say it's a perfect fix.

Either way, unless Power Attack is being abused (ie, by a Frenzied Berserker), there's no reason to implement such a change.

Matthew
2007-12-03, 06:06 PM
Well it would probably help if you used my posts to determine what I am saying instead of attributing someone else's to me.

Fine, but I think you'll find that my original post was not even aimed at you particularly, still:


Because you know what we need to do. Make melee characters worse. Especially all the ones that aren't Orc Barbarians/Frenzied Berserkers.

This is not clear to me. As far as I can see this statement is about reducing overall power of Melee Characters, not addressing the imbalance in different styles of Melee. It makes jack all difference whether the Character is an Orc Barbarian or Frenzied Berserker with regard to imbalance in basic fighting styles.

Shishnarfne
2007-12-03, 06:13 PM
Alright, the general consensus appears to be that this is an unnecessary change, given the relative power balance between melee combatants and non-melee combatants.

However, what this does is try to generate more parity between non-ToB fighting styles of "Power Attack" and everything else. This change does add verisimilitude to the feat, and does help create balance between various styles of melee classes. This change does not impact the ability of wizards and other full casters to dominate the fighter.

I think that the change is a nice way of trying to make the feat a bit more believable, but it does add more to the mechanics of Power Attack, and it reduces a major source of damage for many of the more powerful non-ToB melee builds. As these builds are generally still deemed less powerful, this is seen as unnecessary.

I would like to hope that most of us would address the merits of the change, rather than simply linking to the caster v. fighter rhetoric that frequently feeds some of the more "active" discussions here. I think that this change would be a good change for a deliberately low-magic setting to make various styles of melee combat more balanced. For D&D 3.5 as currently written, with all sources permitted, it would appear to be less necessary.

Now I better hide with my asbestos underwear.

Frosty
2007-12-03, 06:22 PM
You want to balance styles? Make shield fighting and TWF better. Less Feat itnensive, more damaging, etc.

Matthew
2007-12-03, 06:26 PM
That's fine if he wants more power for Melee Classes, but to judge by the initial proposition, that's not what he is seeking to incorporate. It doesn't help that MrNexx doesn't explain the purpose or context of this change, but maybe he was going back to watch another episode of Voyager. :smallwink:

Frosty
2007-12-03, 06:30 PM
I can't fathom anyone who wants to LOWER the power of melee clsses, so the only advice I can offer is to bring TWF and shields up to par with Powa attack.

Matthew
2007-12-03, 06:34 PM
I suppose it just depends what you consider the 'standard' to be. I wouldn't choose to do it this way either, but there it is.

Kaelik
2007-12-03, 06:37 PM
My original comment was a tongue in cheek reference to High Str Power Attackers being the only acceptable build for Power attack after this change.

I don't see this reducing the damage of a High Str Power Attacker build much at all. On the other hand plenty of builds that added Power Attack for a little bit of extra oomph (but never went the full route to Shocktrooper) would have their damage reduced considerably.

Two builds:

Str 18 Orc
Str 18 Human
Barbarian 5/Fighter 1/Frenzied Berserker 10/X 4

Barbarian hits +6 BAB at level 6. Still within range assuming Rage. After going Frenzied Berserker BAB=Str at level 10 assuming no items. Add on a +6 Item and you can last until Greater Frenzy at 13. Then with that you have a +15 modifier at 15. +16 at 16. Add in Manuals and you can actually keep Str equal to BAB up until level 19.

That's why I suggest an Orc, Leap Attack can wait until 9 and you can actually keep Str above or equal to BAB 1-20.

Feats:lvl 1:Power Attack/Improved Bull Rush/Cleave/Destructive Rage
lvl 3:Intimidating Rage
lvl 6: ShockTrooper/Leap Attack

MrNexx
2007-12-03, 06:58 PM
That's fine if he wants more power for Melee Classes, but to judge by the initial proposition, that's not what he is seeking to incorporate. It doesn't help that MrNexx doesn't explain the purpose or context of this change, but maybe he was going back to watch another episode of Voyager. :smallwink:

Actually, I went to another message board to talk about how to effectively transport goods from the Coalition States to the New German Republic.

As has been pointed out, I'm more or less ignoring magic-users in this case... quite frankly, fixing them is an entirely different kettle of fish, and requires more than making a tweak to a single feat. I'm also ignoring ToB; I don't think the solution to the caster/non-caster divide is to turn non-casters into casters.

Why change Power Attack? First of all, I see it as more reasonable that you are sacrificing some of the accuracy you gain from strength (which comes in part from the ability to bring your weapon to bear faster than your opponent can his) in order to pump your damage. In addition, there is the relative power of two-handed fighting v. other styles. While adding additional feats, or tweaks to feats, is important to balancing them out, I take things one step at a time.

For example, I've suggested this alteration in the past:


Combat Expertise [General]
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Normal: A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.

Special: If you are wielding a shield, add twice the number subtracted from your attack bonus to your Armor Class. A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Simple fix; a sentence added to the feat. But it improves the utility of the feat to one of the three main combat styles.

Matthew
2007-12-03, 09:08 PM
I used to rather like that fix for the Combat Expertise Feat, but I'm no longer really sold on it. My fix for Power Attack is to use the 3e version. If I want it to be more powerful, I'll increase the multiplier, but it should apply to all weapons equally. The advantage I would give to Two Handed Weapons would be to extend the 1.5 Strength Bonus Damage to Strength Bonus to Hit, amongst other things (such as making Two Weapon Fighting +1 Attack only, removing Off Hand Strength Penalties, removing Iterative Attacks in favour of a second at Full AB for Characters with BAB 11 and, of course, a Parry Rule).


Fighter 1 AB 1(5), AC 15, HP 10,
Attributes: Strength 15,
Saves:
Feats: Weapon Focus - Great Sword,
Skills:
Equipment: Great Sword (1D12+3), Mail Armour,



Fighter 1 AB 1(4), AC 17, HP 10,
Attributes: Strength 15,
Saves:
Feats: Weapon Focus - Long Sword,
Skills:
Equipment: Long Sword (1D8+2), Heavy Shield, Mail Armour,



Fighter 1 AB 1(2), AC 15, HP 10,
Attributes: Strength 15,
Saves:
Feats: Weapon Focus - Short Sword, Two Weapon Fighting,
Skills:
Equipment: Short Sword (1D6+2), Short Sword (1D6+2), Mail Armour,

or with more inflated Strength scores:


Fighter 1 AB 1(8), AC 15, HP 10,
Attributes: Strength 18,
Saves:
Feats: Weapon Focus - Great Sword,
Skills:
Equipment: Great Sword (1D12+6), Mail Armour,



Fighter 1 AB 1(6), AC 17, HP 10,
Attributes: Strength 18,
Saves:
Feats: Weapon Focus - Long Sword,
Skills:
Equipment: Long Sword (1D8+4), Heavy Shield, Mail Armour,



Fighter 1 AB 1(4), AC 15, HP 10,
Attributes: Strength 18,
Saves:
Feats: Weapon Focus - Short Sword, Two Weapon Fighting,
Skills:
Equipment: Short Sword (1D6+4), Short Sword (1D6+4), Mail Armour,

or even for Half Orc types...


Fighter 1 AB 1(9), AC 15, HP 10,
Attributes: Strength 20,
Saves:
Feats: Weapon Focus - Great Sword,
Skills:
Equipment: Great Sword (1D12+7), Mail Armour,



Fighter 1 AB 1(7), AC 17, HP 10,
Attributes: Strength 20,
Saves:
Feats: Weapon Focus - Long Sword,
Skills:
Equipment: Long Sword (1D8+5), Heavy Shield, Mail Armour,



Fighter 1 AB 1(5), AC 15, HP 10,
Attributes: Strength 20,
Saves:
Feats: Weapon Focus - Short Sword, Two Weapon Fighting,
Skills:
Equipment: Short Sword (1D6+5), Short Sword (1D6+5), Mail Armour,

Talic
2007-12-04, 01:07 AM
Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You canít add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.) If the target of a power attack has neither a natural armor or armor bonus higher than +1, add one additional damage for each point subtracted from your attack rolls.

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

How's that? Makes light fighters, that are faster, more reliably able to injure the squishies that they get near, and makes heavy fighters absolutely devastating if they do get that hit.

Note to everyone. Before you restrict or limit an ability, note the overall power of that ability, as compared to other abilities, at different levels. If it doesn't need a nerf, try to avoid it.

Draz74
2007-12-04, 01:17 AM
Still seems like 2Handers would still dominate the game. The only abuse this would really limit is builds that regularly Power Attack for all of their BAB. Which pretty much means Shock Trooper builds. Which means you might as well nerf Shock Trooper rather than Power Attack.

Talic
2007-12-04, 01:42 AM
Still seems like 2Handers would still dominate the game. The only abuse this would really limit is builds that regularly Power Attack for all of their BAB. Which pretty much means Shock Trooper builds. Which means you might as well nerf Shock Trooper rather than Power Attack.

It's a situational bonus. It's designed only to apply only against things that break easy, and give all users of power attack the ability to deal more damage, or hit more accurately (since the primary targets are soft targets, generally the former). Thus, it doesn't significantly alter the balance vs other fighter builds, rather than vs no armor builds.

Now, what it does do is further nerf monks (sorry), and it fails to address clerics and druids.

How about:


Channeled Striker (Tactical, Fighter)

Prerequisites: Power Attack, Cleave, Base Attack Bonus +5, Spellcraft (2 ranks)

Renewed Vigor: Whenever the possessor of this feat successfully saves against a magical effect, and declares the caster the target of his next attack, his bonus from power attack is doubled. (remember that two doublings equals a tripling, and so forth)
Eldritch Surge: The possessor of this feat may choose to expend a beneficial magical spell with a duration greater than 1 round in one power attack. If she does, she gains a bonus to attack equal to the level of the effect, and a bonus to damage equal to twice the level of the spell expended, provided she uses power attack, and takes a penalty of at least -1 for the attack.
Power Thrust: The possessor of this feat may apply the bonus to damage from power attack to light piercing weapons a maximum of once per round. This does not apply to ranged weapons.

Thoughts?