Need some help to make a clawlock

[Lazarock]

Hey !

It's me.

I tried, some month ago, to make a soul bow, but had to change because another player made a ranger.
I changed my mind and made a fear-themed bard.

Short thing : my character was useless. Half monsters had too much hit dice to be afraid by my spells, and the other half were immune to mind-affectif effects.
I could reroll my bard to make it a classic caster, but I love to make "thematic" builds.

So, here I am !
I tried to tell my DM what was making me reroll, but he doesn't want to change his campaign. No problem, I knew it could happen.

Reminder of the campaign :
Level 6 to level 10 ; no human ; no tier 1 or 2 class ; party needs a high charisma character ; 10k gold

I decided to look at the 2019's tier list to choose another class. We already have a warblade and a crusader so we'll need something to hurt with magic.
So here I am, wondering if I could make a useful -and full of fun- clawlock.

I don't want it to be optimized (even if I make it looks like it), I want it to be flavorful. I can take feats of skills that are useless if it makes my character more "real"
Like, an little (and) angry halfling who go full berserker to pounce the ennemy face when peace isn't an option anymore. No time to loose on useless talk, time to bite some noses.
Very real, much fun.

After taking time to read everything I could on GitP and MinMax forums, from simple threads to full handbooks (warlockopedia ; Almighty Claw of Malar (v2.0), Shinken's Guide to Melee Warlock), I think I'll be a bit weak at this level if I don't have beast strike.
ATM, my character is useless and it's frustrating, I don't want my new character to be the same. And the idea to have a full team of Melee characters (with a twist !) makes me laugh a lot.

I was trying to make something with an barbarian ACF dip to gain Improved Unarmed Strike and TWF "for free" at lvl 4, then switching to warblade but I suck so much at theorycrafting that it hurts.

It looks like this :
Halfling (strongheart if needed) Warlock 3/Barbarian ACF 1 (city brawler)/Warblade 2
Feats from ECL : Dodge and obtain familiar if I have a bonus feat at level 1/ Eldritch claw / Beast Strike

Do you have any idea or tips of how to improve the build/make it anew ?

[Gruftzwerg]

Hey !
It's me.
(the claw of malar guy^^)

Since you did read my build, I guess I won't need to dive to much into that.

But let me still comment on a few things and give some suggestions for your situation.


1. Beast Strike
Imho this is very suboptimal in your situation. BS starts to pay off if you push your effective monk level (or Superior Unarmed Strike as alternative) and use a Necklace of of Natural Weapon with the Sizing special ability. As described in the build, each size step will apply a stacking -2 to hit penalty and give bigger dmg dice (for claws and unarmed strike). This option starts to get value at later levels due to the needed effective monk levels for unarmed strike and the to hit penalty (that needs to be compensated with gear/magic).
Finally, if the campaign is capped at lvl 10, you wont get more than 1 iterative attack (at -5 to hit), while sole relying on Eldritch Claws will provide you with 2 claw attacks at full BAB already.

2. Get the pounce ACF for Barbarian 1
Together with the claws, you get to make 2 claw attacks on a charge.

3. Race: Half-Elf
To avoid XP penalty. If your group doesn't play with that rule, skip this.

4. warlock 6 / Barb 1 / Warblade 1
Warlock 6 to pick Fell Flight. When you make a diving pounce/charge, you get now double dmg with both claw attacks. And flying all day long will also come in handy out of combat.

5. Warblade (dip earliest at lvl 5 due to access to 2nd lvl maneuvers)
Leading the Charge: stance that gives + Initiator lvl as bonus dmg on a charge
Battle Leader's Charge: maneuver that gives +10 bonus dmg on charge/pounce

With this you should be able to kill up to 2 nearby enemies at the start of each combat.
Two attacks at full BAB with each doing...
(+10 + Inititator lvl + STR + Eldritch Claws) x2 dmg

[Mordante]

Not sure how helpful this is for you. But I play a human Clawlock. But it has some homebrew.

Feats I have
Weapon Finesse
Willing deformity
Deformity claws
Mortal Bane

At level 9 I want to take the feat soulmeld, strong heart vest? (is this correct name)

Flaw
Inattentive

5 Warlock/1 Acolyte of the Skin.

The acolyte PrC was changed that it allows full eldritch bolt progression, hit die was changed to D6 and many other changes.

For now I keep stacking Acolyte PrC until I qualify for Hellfire Warlock PrC. That for 3 levels and then switch back to Acolyte.

My wisdom is 8 and my charisma is 12.

My invocations so far are
Beguiling Influence (so strange that diplomacy isn't a class skill)
Otherworldly Whispers
Entropic Warding
Brimstone Blast

[Lazarock]

Hey !
It's me.
(the claw of malar guy^^)

Since you did read my build, I guess I won't need to dive to much into that.

But let me still comment on a few things and give some suggestions for your situation.


1. Beast Strike
Imho this is very suboptimal in your situation. BS starts to pay off if you push your effective monk level (or Superior Unarmed Strike as alternative) and use a Necklace of of Natural Weapon with the Sizing special ability. As described in the build, each size step will apply a stacking -2 to hit penalty and give bigger dmg dice (for claws and unarmed strike). This option starts to get value at later levels due to the needed effective monk levels for unarmed strike and the to hit penalty (that needs to be compensated with gear/magic).
Finally, if the campaign is capped at lvl 10, you wont get more than 1 iterative attack (at -5 to hit), while sole relying on Eldritch Claws will provide you with 2 claw attacks at full BAB already.

2. Get the pounce ACF for Barbarian 1
Together with the claws, you get to make 2 claw attacks on a charge.

3. Race: Half-Elf
To avoid XP penalty. If your group doesn't play with that rule, skip this.

4. warlock 6 / Barb 1 / Warblade 1
Warlock 6 to pick Fell Flight. When you make a diving pounce/charge, you get now double dmg with both claw attacks. And flying all day long will also come in handy out of combat.

5. Warblade (dip earliest at lvl 5 due to access to 2nd lvl maneuvers)
Leading the Charge: stance that gives + Initiator lvl as bonus dmg on a charge
Battle Leader's Charge: maneuver that gives +10 bonus dmg on charge/pounce

With this you should be able to kill up to 2 nearby enemies at the start of each combat.
Two attacks at full BAB with each doing...
(+10 + Inititator lvl + STR + Eldritch Claws) x2 dmg
Yeah, you're one of the few Giants I can recognize from their PP :smallbiggrin:

Thank you for your advices !
I was so focused on the combo claw+BS that I forgot it won't be so effectif at low levels.

I'll follow your advice, but I think I'll make a twist : Warlock 5 / Barbarian 1
Borned and raised in an unknown cult to serve its dark deeds, my character was able to escape with some of the cultists (his mother or some relatives) when the Cult was raided by a paladin's order.
Unfortunately, his followers/keepers died and he had to survive alone, striking first and then asking.

He could be found by the actual party in the slum of the biggest city around, maybe linked to some quest to motivate us to go find him.

Stereotypical character : raised but not taught about what's wrong or good, he had to learn to make his own choices once "freed".
Not an evil fellow, but definitely chaotic.

Not sure how helpful this is for you. But I play a human Clawlock. But it has some homebrew.

Feats I have
Weapon Finesse
Willing deformity
Deformity claws
Mortal Bane

At level 9 I want to take the feat soulmeld, strong heart vest? (is this correct name)

Flaw
Inattentive

5 Warlock/1 Acolyte of the Skin.

The acolyte PrC was changed that it allows full eldritch bolt progression, hit die was changed to D6 and many other changes.

For now I keep stacking Acolyte PrC until I qualify for Hellfire Warlock PrC. That for 3 levels and then switch back to Acolyte.

My wisdom is 8 and my charisma is 12.

My invocations so far are
Beguiling Influence (so strange that diplomacy isn't a class skill)
Otherworldly Whispers
Entropic Warding
Brimstone Blast
Some things I didn't mention and I should have : no human, no flaws, no bloodline, no homebrew

So, then, this build (which seems fun tbh) may not be possible :(
But still, thank you for your suggestion !

[Mordante]

Yeah, you're one of the few Giants I can recognize from their PP :smallbiggrin:

Thank you for your advices !
I was so focused on the combo claw+BS that I forgot it won't be so effectif at low levels.

I'll follow your advice, but I think I'll make a twist : Warlock 5 / Barbarian 1
Borned and raised in an unknown cult to serve its dark deeds, my character was able to escape with some of the cultists (his mother or some relatives) when the Cult was raided by a paladin's order.
Unfortunately, his followers/keepers died and he had to survive alone, striking first and then asking.

He could be found by the actual party in the slum of the biggest city around, maybe linked to some quest to motivate us to go find him.

Stereotypical character : raised but not taught about what's wrong or good, he had to learn to make his own choices once "freed".
Not an evil fellow, but definitely chaotic.

Some things I didn't mention and I should have : no human, no flaws, no bloodline, no homebrew

So, then, this build (which seems fun tbh) may not be possible :(
But still, thank you for your suggestion !

Sound like you have found a fun build.

The lack of love Warlocj has received from WotC has always made me a bit sad. I think it is so strange that diplomacy isn't a Warlock class skill. The amount of PrC for locks is very limited sadly.

[Gruftzwerg]

@ Lazarock
I hope you enjoy the build. If you want some aid later for the further lvls, don't hesitate. We'll back you up ;)


Sound like you have found a fun build.

The lack of love Warlocj has received from WotC has always made me a bit sad. I think it is so strange that diplomacy isn't a Warlock class skill. The amount of PrC for locks is very limited sadly.

yeah warlock have a hard time accessing PRC. But imho it is still a decent amount available (compared to Dragonfire Adept who really got the short stick here). And if you try hard, you can even enter stuff like shadowcraft mage (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?652658)or arcane trickster and the like. Sometimes a dip into another class also helps (since some PRC could progress warlock if you can enter em). But yeah, we could really need more prc options for warlocks (and DFA).

And regarding Diplomacy, imho it doesn't fit the warlock fluff. Bluff yeah, but not Diplomacy. Warlock don't "call" beings from other planes to bargain with em. Even if the fluff text suggest that either you or your ancestor made a pact. And the pact doesn't have to be in your favor (which would require a Diplomacy roll). Nor are warlock otherwise renown for their Diplomacy skills.

Finally, who needs Diplomacy if you have Charm and Suggestion at will?
Sure it limits the accessible PRC, but I don't see any reason why warlock should have Diplomacy.

[Mordante]

@ Lazarock
I hope you enjoy the build. If you want some aid later for the further lvls, don't hesitate. We'll back you up ;)



yeah warlock have a hard time accessing PRC. But imho it is still a decent amount available (compared to Dragonfire Adept who really got the short stick here). And if you try hard, you can even enter stuff like shadowcraft mage (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?652658)or arcane trickster and the like. Sometimes a dip into another class also helps (since some PRC could progress warlock if you can enter em). But yeah, we could really need more prc options for warlocks (and DFA).

And regarding Diplomacy, imho it doesn't fit the warlock fluff. Bluff yeah, but not Diplomacy. Warlock don't "call" beings from other planes to bargain with em. Even if the fluff text suggest that either you or your ancestor made a pact. And the pact doesn't have to be in your favor (which would require a Diplomacy roll). Nor are warlock otherwise renown for their Diplomacy skills.

Finally, who needs Diplomacy if you have Charm and Suggestion at will?
Sure it limits the accessible PRC, but I don't see any reason why warlock should have Diplomacy.

The main reason I think Diplomacy should be a Warlock class is:

BEGUILING INFLUENCE
Least; 2nd
You can invoke this ability to beguile and bewitch your foes. You gain a +6 bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks for a period of 24 hours.

Why would a invocation buff a non-class skill? A Warlock with a high Charisma score can easily function as the "face of the party".

[Gruftzwerg]

The main reason I think Diplomacy should be a Warlock class is:

BEGUILING INFLUENCE
Least; 2nd
You can invoke this ability to beguile and bewitch your foes. You gain a +6 bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks for a period of 24 hours.

Why would a invocation buff a non-class skill? A Warlock with a high Charisma score can easily function as the "face of the party".

1) While I see your point, there are dozens of spells that do the same: buff something that the original class doesn't have as class skill.

2) It makes dipping warlock attractive. While most people ignore this, a warlock dip can be very beneficial for a variety of builds. Be it for Beguiling Influence, Spiderclimb (24h), Eldritch Glaive (for a sneak attacker) or whatever else comes to your mind. There are really a bunch of abilities that make a dip worth it.

[Troacctid]

Personally, I like to build clawlocks with wild shape or polymorph effects. That way you get a big ol' shapeshifted Strength score to leverage.

Since you mentioned strongheart halfling, I assume Forgotten Realms material is on the table? If so, what I would do is be a Divine Minion of Anhur! It's only +1 LA for the ability to wild shape into a lion at will. That gives you a base Strength of 21 plus pounce, as well as improved grab and rake as a cherry on top. Oh, and immunity to fear, I guess. You should talk to your DM about patching the bug in the template (I don't think it's supposed to give unlimited healing), but if you clear that up, it should be a great pick for what you're trying to do. I like it better than a barbarian dip.

[Mordante]

Personally, I like to build clawlocks with wild shape or polymorph effects. That way you get a big ol' shapeshifted Strength score to leverage.

Since you mentioned strongheart halfling, I assume Forgotten Realms material is on the table? If so, what I would do is be a Divine Minion of Anhur! It's only +1 LA for the ability to wild shape into a lion at will. That gives you a base Strength of 21 plus pounce, as well as improved grab and rake as a cherry on top. Oh, and immunity to fear, I guess. You should talk to your DM about patching the bug in the template (I don't think it's supposed to give unlimited healing), but if you clear that up, it should be a great pick for what you're trying to do. I like it better than a barbarian dip.

These smell a bit too cheesy to me to be honest.

[lylsyly]

1 level of totem druid (tiger) DR#335 nets you improved grab, pounce, rake, scent, low light vision. easy peasy if your dm will allow it!!

[ShurikVch]

How about a Shifter with Razorclaw trait?
Razorclaw Elite can give you a "Pounce with claws" from level 1 - and without dipping any other class (Also, damage from Beast Strike in that case may be US+EB+claw)