paladin variants and blackguards

[Doresain]

in the "fear-based melee class" thread i started, i mentioned anti-paladins at some point...that got me thinking about something...would an anti-paladin (or any of the other paladins for that matter) count for the blackguards fallen paladin class ability? i know the DMG was out before UA, but since the paladin has converted to paladin of honor, would it be safe to say that the blackguards ability refers to paladins in general since it doesnt specifically say paladin of honor? or is this just wishful thinking on my part?

[Renegade Paladin]

No, you can't have the fallen paladin benefits of a blackguard while still having the benefits of a dark paladin from UA.

[Doresain]

curses, foiled again!!

[EvilElitest]

No, you can't have the fallen paladin benefits of a blackguard while still having the benefits of a dark paladin from UA.

what is a dark paladin?
Or the UA for that matter?
Is it like that horrible Grey Guard?
from,
EE

[Renegade Paladin]

Keep in mind that this is because, due to the way the rules for the non-paladins in UA are written, they all fall instantaneously for not being lawful good. :smalltongue: From the top of the Variant Character Classes section:
Each fully detailed variant has entries for one or more of the following topics. If an entry does not appear, use the material for the standard class.

Alignment
Changes to the class's alignment restrictions.

Hit Die
Changes to the class's Hit Die.

Base Attack Bonus
If the class uses a different base attack bonus, this entry gives the column to use (good, average, or poor).

Base Save Bonuses
If the class has a different mix of good and poor saves, this entry gives the appropriate column for each save.

Class Skills
Additions or subtractions from the class skill list, and/or changes in the number of skill points gained per level.

Class Features
Changes, additions, or subtractions to the class's special features, including spellcasting.
None of the non-paladins have an altered Alignment entry, so they all must be lawful good, while simultaneously being LE/CE/CG due to the changes in the Code entry. Insta-fall. :smallbiggrin:

[Doresain]

well any of the paladins can fall...they just have different requirements for falling

[EvilElitest]

But i don't know what the UA is, or these new aligments rules. As I view you as my paladin expert, please tell me if you like this concept
from,
EE

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

UA is Unleashed Arcana, a book of variant rules.

[RTGoodman]

Here (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#freedom-slaughter-and-tyranny)'s the link for the UA variant paladins: Freedom (CG), Slaughter (CE), and Tyranny (LE).

[Mewtarthio]

As a side note, I don't think you should have Blackguards running around if you've also got Paladins of Tyranny and Slaughter running around. It's kind of redundant.

[Quietus]

Keep in mind that this is because, due to the way the rules for the non-paladins in UA are written, they all fall instantaneously for not being lawful good. :smalltongue: From the top of the Variant Character Classes section:
None of the non-paladins have an altered Alignment entry, so they all must be lawful good, while simultaneously being LE/CE/CG due to the changes in the Code entry. Insta-fall. :smallbiggrin:

They don't insta-fall, but they can't take levels in that class to begin with. I think. It hurts my head to think about.

[Zincorium]

None of the non-paladins have an altered Alignment entry, so they all must be lawful good, while simultaneously being LE/CE/CG due to the changes in the Code entry. Insta-fall. :smallbiggrin:

You always bring this up, but it's about as relevant as the fact that monks do not have proficiency in unarmed strikes. No one is actually going to play according to the nit-picked RAW, and it would be odd to even expect them to try.

However, since I've already reduced myself to arguing at this particular level of silliness, they only fall if they deviate from lawful good. If you were never lawful good to begin with, you can't deviate from it. This is akin to being deported from a country you've never been to. So to fall, the paladin variants would have to become lawful good and then change from that.

:smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

Here (http://systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#freedom-slaughter-and-tyranny)'s the link for the UA variant paladins: Freedom (CG), Slaughter (CE), and Tyranny (LE).

thank you
from
EE

[Doresain]

no one is understanding what im saying

each of the different paladins(im also referring to the dragon magazine ones) has a different code of conduct and a different way of falling...basically, if a anti-paladin, the first CE paladin variant they made, becomes lawful he would technically fall...would this apply to the blackguards ability or not? it simply states that if a paladin falls it gets extra abilities...since UA brought in 3 additional paladins and changed the name of the original, would the blackguards ability apply to all the different paladins or only the paladin of honor? i would think since it doesnt specifically say so that it would

[The_Snark]

no one is understanding what im saying

each of the different paladins(im also referring to the dragon magazine ones) has a different code of conduct and a different way of falling...basically, if a anti-paladin, the first CE paladin variant they made, becomes lawful he would technically fall...would this apply to the blackguards ability or not? it simply states that if a paladin falls it gets extra abilities...since UA brought in 3 additional paladins and changed the name of the original, would the blackguards ability apply to all the different paladins or only the paladin of honor? i would think since it doesnt specifically say so that it would

Only if you lost your original paladin abilities. A paladin of freedom who fell and became a blackguard would gain the bonuses. A paladin of tyranny/slaughter who for some reason changed alignment to be chaotic/lawful, respectively, and took levels in blackguard, would gain the abilities.

But yes, I agree that if you're using the UA alternate paladins, you ought to remove the blackguard (and the holy liberator) from the campaign. Letting them get all those early paladin abilities twice is too easy (and makes the original LG paladin the worst out of the four).

[Doresain]

and makes the original LG paladin the worst out of the four.

well there is a perfectly logically explanation for that

[Cuddly]

RAW, a Backguard's charisma to saves an Paladin of Tyranny's charisma to saves both stack. Which is pretty sweet. Through in 3 levels of hexblade for mettle, maybe a couple levels of rogue for evasion, and you've got a character immune to spells that allow a save. Pick absorbing armor or whatever that one is that allows saves vs. energy draining attacks for half, and never fear enervation again!

[Mr. Friendly]

I think it would be sort of cool to simply reflavor the Blackguard. Change the name to "The Fallen"; the alignment and entry requirements would be something like "Paladin 4, alignment Chaotic Evil" or "Paladin of Freedom 4, alignment Lawful Evil" etc. etc. (factoring in the other varient paladins from Dragon) all the powers could be reworked for an "opposition effect"

Seems like something for me to do today...

[RTGoodman]

Or it seems to me that you could just rule that Blackguard is gone, and that Paladins that "fall" (i.e. violate their code and/or have an alignment shift, towards good or evil) just swap out paladin (or ex-paladin) levels for levels in the alignment to which that they shifted. Maybe require an atonement from a Cleric of that alignment, just to keep people from changing variant whenever they feel like it.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Well, As far as I'm concerned the different flavors of paladin found in the UA book are just ways of having there be paladins other than LG paladins. I mean, why wouldn't other gods and extreme alignmnts have their own champions?

Blackguard was a prestige class for evil paladins...much in the same way that 'prestige paladin' in UA is a prestige class for paladins of good.

I am not sure if I would allow both evil paladins from UA and Backguards in the same game, but if I did the bonuses would not stack in my opinion. This is more fluff than rules...a paladin serves either a higher purpose (evil or good), or a powerful entity (usually a god)...to become a blackguard, you must make peaceful contact with an agent of evil and make a pact for power...if you are already a 'unholy' servent of theirs (dark paladin)...there is no pact to make...however, if it is the servent of a different entity, you can offer to join them...by making them your new source of power you must abandon your old. Good paladins fall, if they already haven't, and evil paladins are rejected by their old masters and pledge their alleigence to their new lords.

Evil lords are pleased to take followers from elsewhere...they are even more pleased to grant extra power to those who completely forsake their old masters in their name. (turn in paladin levels)...those who still have levels in a 'paladin' class while blackguards still would hold residual energy that gives them additional powers as a blackguard.

Bottom line though...a blackguard pledges himself/herself to a new dark master...this breaks the paladin code to stay true to your ideals...you serve your current master/ideal...by willingly breaking the code, you fall, evil or good, it doesn't matter...becoming a Blackgraud is against the code.

At least that is my take on it.

A wold with evil paladins hardly seems to need blackguards...but then again, the forces of evil are always more prolific than those of good so who knows. All depends on what works in your game.

[Roderick_BR]

Keep in mind that this is because, due to the way the rules for the non-paladins in UA are written, they all fall instantaneously for not being lawful good. :smalltongue: From the top of the Variant Character Classes section:
None of the non-paladins have an altered Alignment entry, so they all must be lawful good, while simultaneously being LE/CE/CG due to the changes in the Code entry. Insta-fall. :smallbiggrin:
Using the Paladin of Freedom entry as example: Umm... no.


Each fully detailed variant has entries for one or more of the following topics. If an entry does not appear, use the material for the standard class.
Alignment
Changes to the class's alignment restrictions.



Code of Conduct
A paladin of freedom must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin of freedom's code requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.


And answering the OP's question: No, the Blackguard's abilities apply only over a LG paladin's levels. If you use the evil variants, the Blackguard is not a necessary class. If you do allow only the CG variant, though (having both LG and CG paladins in your campaign setting) you could allows the blackguard to gain powers based on the CG's paladin levels.

[Chronos]

Well, As far as I'm concerned the different flavors of paladin found in the UA book are just ways of having there be paladins other than LG paladins. I mean, why wouldn't other gods and extreme alignmnts have their own champions?Personally, I agree wholeheartedly that other alignments should have champions... But they should, as you say, be their own champions. I don't like the flavor of having Chaotic Evil champions being just like the Lawful Good champions, except with all the alignment-based abilities being mirror-imaged, and a different aura. Why should they be similar at all? Why should the other champions even be warrior-types? I could very easily see a chaotic champion being similar to the rogue, for instance.