Figuring out my Cleric's role

[DarkMoon250]

Hello. I recently got into a 3.5e campaign, but it crashed and burned. Luckily, someone swooped in and brought me into their own 3.5e game, and it looks like this one will actually work out.

I'm wanting to build a level 5 Cleric, and I'm attempting to figure out what role I should take in the party based on my rolled stats: 15, 14, 13, 13, 13, 13. I'm interested in playing an elf, half-human elf, raptoran, lycanthrope (or lycanthrope-bloodline human) or aasimar (on that note, I should say that we are using level adjustment buyoff rules). We start with 12,500 gold. We also get 2 traits, 2 flaws, and a 1st level feat for each flaw.

If anyone could share some advice on how to go about building this character, it'd be much appreciated.

[Anthrowhale]

What other roles are being filled in the party?

Clerics are extremely adaptable in general, so the context of your party is more relevant than almost anything else.

[Paragon]

The Quasilycanthrope template could be what you're looking for ? (I don't have the link on hand but it was in a Web Enhancement somewhere)

Cleric is a Tier 1 class meaning it's very versatile. What you should do is understand what everyone is doing in the party and fill in the gap. You can be a melee, support, damage dealer, the world is your oyster :)

EDIT : Ninja'ed

[DarkMoon250]

What other roles are being filled in the party?

Clerics are extremely adaptable in general, so the context of your party is more relevant than almost anything else.

Sorcerer, Fighter, and Paladin are established, with one other player who hasn't picked yet.

[Anthrowhale]

Sorcerer, Fighter, and Paladin are established, with one other player who hasn't picked yet.

More detail on the role of the Sorcerer would be helpful.

In terms of party role, your stats+race don't support saves on enemies well and the party plausibly has enough front-liners. Focusing on buffs could be effective. Depending on the campaign, it may also be important to have a trap-finder.

Maybe a skill-monkey cleric with a side of buffing? Cloistered Cleric[Kobold, Trickery, Knowledge]. For feats, pick up DMM[Persistent Spell] and for items pick up a rod of extend spell and various turn-granting items. You can keep Mass Lesser Vigor and Elation active on everyone as well as function in a scout role. Use Guidance of the Avatar / Divine Insight to spike skill checks.

There's still a question about what to do in combat. Persistent Darkfire could make you a reasonable archer.

[Biggus]

In terms of party role, your stats+race don't support saves on enemies well and the party plausibly has enough front-liners. Focusing on buffs could be effective.


This what I was thinking. Buffing would help the party as a whole, and with all-rounder stats like you have you'd be able to wade into melee fairly effectively if needed once buffed.

@OP: about your stats: do you have the option to start middle-aged? If so, that would turn your 5 odd stats and 1 even into 5 even and 1 odd.

[DarkMoon250]

The Sorcerer is going to focus on debuffs and crowd control.

I do have the opportunity to go middle-aged, but I'm not sure if I want to go that route in terms of RP.

I'm also wanting to go with 3.5e's rendition of the raptoran god Tuilviel, the elven god Sehanine Moonbow, or the universal god Selune for my Cleric's deity, so in terms of domains, the ones they offer are the ones I want to choose from.

Also, how important might the +2 for Wis and Cha from aasimar be for my build, to get 17 Wis and 15 or 16 Cha? Or does one of the other races/creatures I'm interested in offer more, and I could just buy a +2 Periapt of Wisdom?

[Seward]

Given relatively low primary stat (compared to point buy) and two martals in the party I'd likely go to a support/buffing type of cleric, with a few offensive spells that aren't too save dependent to liven things up when the martials aren't getting the job done. If the sorcerer is more of a support character than a damage dealer I might build something more aggressive and in any event you should be thinking about the sorcerer when choosing spells for your day, to complement the party's other spellcaster.

One thing you might do that my wife did with a cleric of hers that was strong enough to carry armor and a real weapon (as yours is) but not strong enough to really be a realistic melee threat barring massive prebuffing with short duration spells....invest in masterwork armor and longspear and your enemies might TREAT you like a martial threat, avoiding your reach and whatnot while actually being primarily a spellcaster. Also a cold iron masterwork longspear can be loaned out to party martials who lack a tool for a job in their own toolkit and not completely suck, especially if it is buffed with a weapon spell of some sort before passing it over (underwater fights need a piercing weapon, sometimes reach is more important than having a shield, like fighting from a castle wall, sometimes they just lack a piercing weapon and there is weird DR etc). If you go with a buckler instead of a heavy shield, you can still juggle spellcasting and actual gripping of the weapon as needed, or just go "shield up" if you need a bit more AC, with longspear not readied for use but gripped in one hand.

[Anthrowhale]

The Sorcerer is going to focus on debuffs and crowd control.

I do have the opportunity to go middle-aged, but I'm not sure if I want to go that route in terms of RP.

I'm also wanting to go with 3.5e's rendition of the raptoran god Tuilviel, the elven god Sehanine Moonbow, or the universal god Selune for my Cleric's deity, so in terms of domains, the ones they offer are the ones I want to choose from.

Also, how important might the +2 for Wis and Cha from aasimar be for my build, to get 17 Wis and 15 or 16 Cha? Or does one of the other races/creatures I'm interested in offer more, and I could just buy a +2 Periapt of Wisdom?

The immediate advantage of a 16+ Wis is that you'll have an additional 3rd level spell.

The following may be to much detail, but perhaps it's helpful.

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Sehanine Moonbow seems to have a good set of domains (see here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTqo16E_7z1S6o1PAL74PkJXVk88KKtb5_g43SPXpc7Zf7AKd BA8tZT4cFqD5lpzHIrErnEsCdIM5es/pubhtml)). Note that via the Substitute Domain spell, you can freely switch amongst all of them, and if you take the spontaneous domain ACF you can cast in a semi-spontaneous fashion by casting substitute domain one round and then spontaneously casting from the domain the next round. With effectively 11 domains (Chaos, Dream, Elf, Good, Illusion, Knowledge, Moon, Oracle, Repose, Travel, Trickery) of semi-spontaneous spells available, you have quite a bit of versatility. I'd recommend setting up a cheat sheet.

In addition to spontaneous domain ACF (PHBII), I'd suggest starting as a cloistered cleric (which gives an extra knowledge domain and more skills), and taking the Divine Magician ACF to raid the wizard list (See Invisibility and Anticipate Teleportation look good). The Knowledge Domain can be converted to Knowledge Devotion after you put some skill points into each knowledge skill. Furthermore, if you have the Travel domain on level up (for the survival skill), you can easily qualify for Seeker of the Misty Isle which is a decent prestige class. I'd also suggest taking the Destroy Undead ACF and later picking up a level of Sacred Exorcist for a second turning pool.

In terms of feats, pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM[Persistent Spell], Rapid Shot (using the Elf domain for Point Blank Shot) using 2 flaws + a level 1 and 3 feat.

For race pick Wild Elf (+2 Dex, -2 Int) or Desert Elf (-2 Str, +2 Dex)

Stick the 15 into wisdom and use the bonus you get at level 4 to make it 16. Put the 14 into Dex which is raised to 16 via elfhood.

Purchase a lesser rod of extend spell (3k gp) and a reliquary holy symbol (1k) which gives an extra two turn undeads. Every day just after prayers cast Eagle's Splendor on yourself and then DMM[Persist] either Mass Lesser Vigor (on the party) or Darkfire both of which are extended with the rod.

In terms of armor class, get a reinforced mithril chain shirt, a masterwork dastana, a mithril Chahar-Aina, and a mithril large shield. Your baseline AC should be 22=10(base)+4(chain shirt)+1(reinforced)+1(dastana)+1(chahar-Aina)+2(shield)+3 (dex), which can be further enhanced with magic and has no armor check penalty.

At this point, every party member has fast heal 1, and you have a 120' ranged touch attack which does 2d6 +1 (point blank) + 1 to +5 (knowledge devotion) fire twice per round (via rapid shot) with a to hit of +2(base attack)+3(dex)-2(rapid shot)+1(Point blank shot)+1 to +5(knowledge devotion). You also have two more lesser rod of extend charges, many more spells/day, and lots of unallocated skill points.

[DarkMoon250]

The immediate advantage of a 16+ Wis is that you'll have an additional 3rd level spell.

The following may be to much detail, but perhaps it's helpful.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sehanine Moonbow seems to have a good set of domains (see here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTqo16E_7z1S6o1PAL74PkJXVk88KKtb5_g43SPXpc7Zf7AKd BA8tZT4cFqD5lpzHIrErnEsCdIM5es/pubhtml)). Note that via the Substitute Domain spell, you can freely switch amongst all of them, and if you take the spontaneous domain ACF you can cast in a semi-spontaneous fashion by casting substitute domain one round and then spontaneously casting from the domain the next round. With effectively 11 domains (Chaos, Dream, Elf, Good, Illusion, Knowledge, Moon, Oracle, Repose, Travel, Trickery) of semi-spontaneous spells available, you have quite a bit of versatility. I'd recommend setting up a cheat sheet.

In addition to spontaneous domain ACF (PHBII), I'd suggest starting as a cloistered cleric (which gives an extra knowledge domain and more skills), and taking the Divine Magician ACF to raid the wizard list (See Invisibility and Anticipate Teleportation look good). The Knowledge Domain can be converted to Knowledge Devotion after you put some skill points into each knowledge skill. Furthermore, if you have the Travel domain on level up (for the survival skill), you can easily qualify for Seeker of the Misty Isle which is a decent prestige class. I'd also suggest taking the Destroy Undead ACF and later picking up a level of Sacred Exorcist for a second turning pool.

In terms of feats, pick up Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, DMM[Persistent Spell], Rapid Shot (using the Elf domain for Point Blank Shot) using 2 flaws + a level 1 and 3 feat.

For race pick Wild Elf (+2 Dex, -2 Int) or Desert Elf (-2 Str, +2 Dex)

Stick the 15 into wisdom and use the bonus you get at level 4 to make it 16. Put the 14 into Dex which is raised to 16 via elfhood.

Purchase a lesser rod of extend spell (3k gp) and a reliquary holy symbol (1k) which gives an extra two turn undeads. Every day just after prayers cast Eagle's Splendor on yourself and then DMM[Persist] either Mass Lesser Vigor (on the party) or Darkfire both of which are extended with the rod.

In terms of armor class, get a reinforced mithril chain shirt, a masterwork dastana, a mithril Chahar-Aina, and a mithril large shield. Your baseline AC should be 22=10(base)+4(chain shirt)+1(reinforced)+1(dastana)+1(chahar-Aina)+2(shield)+3 (dex), which can be further enhanced with magic and has no armor check penalty.

At this point, every party member has fast heal 1, and you have a 120' ranged touch attack which does 2d6 +1 (point blank) + 1 to +5 (knowledge devotion) fire twice per round (via rapid shot) with a to hit of +2(base attack)+3(dex)-2(rapid shot)+1(Point blank shot)+1 to +5(knowledge devotion). You also have two more lesser rod of extend charges, many more spells/day, and lots of unallocated skill points.
This is very interesting! Are there any other prestige classes you'd recommend? And should I try to fit Zen Archery into this, to make things less dependent on Dex with longbow?

[Anthrowhale]

This is very interesting! Are there any other prestige classes you'd recommend? And should I try to fit Zen Archery into this, to make things less dependent on Dex with longbow?

Zen Archery is attractive, but the only feat you could trade it for is rapid shot, which doesn't seem worthwhile. In any case, the AC and initiative benefits of a high(er) dexterity are fairly worthwhile.

As far as other prestige classes, Ruathar and Paragnostic Apostle give minor benefits cheaply at the cost of fewer skills. If you can backstory a visit to Frog God's Fane for Skill Focus[Knowledge[Religion]] (and pay the cost), it would allow you to enter Divine Oracle at will. The extra domain at level 1 and the Prescient Sense at level 2 are solid. You could even stick with it to level 10 for immunity to surprise, although the 2+int skill points are a drag. A level of contemplative at ECL 11 is also easy with the extra domain providing a nice benefit.

Picking up extra domains is handy for you, simply because there are some nice domain benefits---immunity to fear (Dream), point blank shot (Elf), all knowledge skills (Knowledge), Freedom of movement (Travel), Bluff+Disguise+Hide (Trickery).

In terms of feats, you might pick up Searing Spell to keep your Darkfire archery relevant into high levels, and eventually add a metamagic rod of empower spell or maximize spell. Also note that you can eventually add Holy Star to your archery repertoire and that persistent Divine Power eventually adds iteratives.

[DarkMoon250]

Zen Archery is attractive, but the only feat you could trade it for is rapid shot, which doesn't seem worthwhile. In any case, the AC and initiative benefits of a high(er) dexterity are fairly worthwhile.

As far as other prestige classes, Ruathar and Paragnostic Apostle give minor benefits cheaply at the cost of fewer skills. If you can backstory a visit to Frog God's Fane for Skill Focus[Knowledge[Religion]] (and pay the cost), it would allow you to enter Divine Oracle at will. The extra domain at level 1 and the Prescient Sense at level 2 are solid. You could even stick with it to level 10 for immunity to surprise, although the 2+int skill points are a drag. A level of contemplative at ECL 11 is also easy with the extra domain providing a nice benefit.

Picking up extra domains is handy for you, simply because there are some nice domain benefits---immunity to fear (Dream), point blank shot (Elf), all knowledge skills (Knowledge), Freedom of movement (Travel), Bluff+Disguise+Hide (Trickery).

In terms of feats, you might pick up Searing Spell to keep your Darkfire archery relevant into high levels, and eventually add a metamagic rod of empower spell or maximize spell. Also note that you can eventually add Holy Star to your archery repertoire and that persistent Divine Power eventually adds iteratives.

What would I need to do to make my Dex keep up with my Wis in the long run, since it looks like you're right about Zen Archery not fitting in? And what should I do about my Con and Cha?

Also, would Cloistered Cleric be a bad choice here, since they get a bad BAB?

[DarkMoon250]

This just in, I have been informed that I may exchange these stats for a 28 point-buy if I like.

[Anthrowhale]

What would I need to do to make my Dex keep up with my Wis in the long run, since it looks like you're right about Zen Archery not fitting in? And what should I do about my Con and Cha?
You could take Zen Archery later, but it may not really be necessary since you are operating with touch attacks. The average touch AC is nearly constant independent of creature CR.

I was assuming you just stick a 13 in Con & Cha. The Elf race with Str-2 seems the most attractive to me--a Str of 11 is plausibly enough to leave you unencumbered.


Also, would Cloistered Cleric be a bad choice here, since they get a bad BAB?
At level 5, cloistered cleric has BAB+2 while cleric has BAB+3, and since you'll probably go into a prestige class straight away, that difference of 1 is all that matters. Cloistered Cleric gives you Knowledge Devotion though, which improves both to-hit and damage by at least 1. You might worry about iteratives, but in a couple levels you'll have access to Persistent Divine Power which makes class derived BAB irrelevant.

This just in, I have been informed that I may exchange these stats for a 28 point-buy if I like.
That's roughly equivalent to what you have. For buffer/archer cleric, the stats you have are ok.

If you want to impose conditions with a tough save, it's helpful to have a much higher Wis and sacrifice other stats. But that's a rather different concept, so you'll need to think about what you want to do.