[3.5] So, a Samurai, a Shugenja and a Ninja walk into a bar...

[Avrodath]

Hi guys and gals.
I'll soon start a campaign as a Samurai (Complete Warrior version) with two other players (shugenja and ninja). We'll play as former members of a wiped out noble house of Kara-Tur, trying to regain their honor in the barbaric lands of Faerun.
We'll start at level 9, with 9 levels in our base class.

I know that the samurai is well known for being a botched class in its CW version, but, well, it is what it is... the campaign will be very RP focused and the fights will certainly be harsh but fair.

So, my questions are : How would you build and equip a 9th level human samurai ? And what classes or prestige classes would you take for his next 5 levels ?

I rolled:

STR: 18 (16 +2 levels)
DEX: 12
CON: 16
INT: 12
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

For his feats, well... I don't know yet. Would it be better to get a charger build, taking advantage of the built-in Two Weapon Fighting of the samurai, or taking advantage of his intimidate bonus/class features ?

For his equipment, well, I have 36k gp. I'll certainly buy +STR, +saves items. If you have any good ideas for any wondrous items, or weapon/armor enchantments useful for a melee character, I'll be grateful.

(MiC is not an authorized manual in our games)

For his 5 next levels, well... I really don't know. I'll take any advice !

Thanks for your answers !

[pabelfly]

Well Samurai doesn't have a way to get Pounce or free movement, so they can't attack more than once after a charge. I've found it easy to make Pounce a feat for my games, but if your DM isn't on-board, a level of Barbarian or Travel Devotion plus a level of Cleric both work pretty well.

[Inevitability]

Intimidate is generally the superior way, though after level 6 (when you get Staredown and can pick the Imperious Command feat) it's generally worth PrCing out. Kensai is a pretty flavorful class that can stick some good abilities on your main weapon. Exotic Weapon Master is also decent if you wanna wield a katana and get some bonuses on it, and you can walk right in after Samurai 6. Show Off + Move Action Demoralize can render opponents Frightened in one turn even if you don't get to use Imperious Command. That said, consider wielding your weapon two-handed instead of going the TWF route.

A level in human paragon to pick up Iaijutsu Focus as a permanent class skill is both flavorful, gives charisma synergy, and works well with the Quick Draw you'll end up getting anyway. If you want to use a feat instead, elves have access to Aereni Focus to do the same, but it's a bit setting-specific.

[Particle_Man]

Do you want to try the Ronin prestige class?

[Avrodath]

@pabelfly: Pounce really seems to be a nobrainer... I guess I could justify a first level of barbarian if my character began as a tuigan raider who got caught and was later given the chance to serve as a samurai.

@Inevitability: Well... I rolled quite badly for my charisma and sadly don't meet the prerequisite for the Imperious Command feat. You think it is still worth it to specialize in intimidation despite that weak charisma ? Plus, I'll only be able to demoralize with a move action at 14th level (which is quite far from now).

@Particle_Man: I thought of the ronin class, and its banzai charge sounds really great. The non-lawful and the "dishonourable" requirements quite bugged me, but I guess I could easily justify it while roaming in Faerun.

[Maat Mons]

If you’re going to be a Samurai, I guess all you can really do is take the Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Martial Study (any Tiger Claw maneuver), Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack feats, and add the Valorous property to your katana.

[MultitudeMan]

There's an Iron Chef build from the Tactical Soldier round, Takai Shingi (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?214198-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-XXIV&p=11872314#post11872314), that uses CW Samurai as a base (only 6 levels though), maybe that could give some ideas?

[claypigeons]

Hi guys and gals.
I'll soon start a campaign as a Samurai (Complete Warrior version) with two other players (shugenja and ninja). We'll play as former members of a wiped out noble house of Kara-Tur, trying to regain their honor in the barbaric lands of Faerun.
We'll start at level 9, with 9 levels in our base class.

I know that the samurai is well known for being a botched class in its CW version, but, well, it is what it is... the campaign will be very RP focused and the fights will certainly be harsh but fair.

So, my questions are : How would you build and equip a 9th level human samurai ? And what classes or prestige classes would you take for his next 5 levels ?

I rolled:

STR: 18 (16 +2 levels)
DEX: 12
CON: 16
INT: 12
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

For his feats, well... I don't know yet. Would it be better to get a charger build, taking advantage of the built-in Two Weapon Fighting of the samurai, or taking advantage of his intimidate bonus/class features ?

For his equipment, well, I have 36k gp. I'll certainly buy +STR, +saves items. If you have any good ideas for any wondrous items, or weapon/armor enchantments useful for a melee character, I'll be grateful.

(MiC is not an authorized manual in our games)

For his 5 next levels, well... I really don't know. I'll take any advice !

Thanks for your answers !

If possible, you really should lean into the intimidate shenanigans. Move a 16 to Charisma, take imperious command, the skill trick Never Outnumbered, and the Fearsome armor property, also from DotU (+5k, +5 to intimidate, intimidate as a move).

CW samurai is notoriously bad, so you might as well be as less bad as you can.

[Inevitability]

@Inevitability: Well... I rolled quite badly for my charisma and sadly don't meet the prerequisite for the Imperious Command feat. You think it is still worth it to specialize in intimidation despite that weak charisma ? Plus, I'll only be able to demoralize with a move action at 14th level (which is quite far from now).

In that case, I'd go the Samurai -> Kensai route (or tough it out until level 11 and become a samurai 1/ronin 10). Intimidate isn't very good with low charisma and no imperious command.

That said, a suit of Fearsome armor (DotU) lets you intimidate as a move action and is pretty cheap, so you might want to pick that up just in case you ever have a spare move to use, especially if you find another source of fear that you can stack shaken with.

[Avrodath]

I'll try to slip some intimidation stuff in my build, and maybe swap my 10 CHA for a 16 to get that sweet Imperious command feat.

Thanks a lot for your advices !

[Chronos]

Quoth claypigeons:

If possible, you really should lean into the intimidate shenanigans. Move a 16 to Charisma, take imperious command, the skill trick Never Outnumbered, and the Fearsome armor property, also from DotU (+5k, +5 to intimidate, intimidate as a move).
None of what you say is wrong, but it kind of underscores just how bad Samurai is. If you're getting demoralizing as a move action from your armor, and demoralizing multiple enemies at once from the skill trick, just what are you getting out of the Samurai class any more? Just the +4 bonus to the skill, so far as I can tell, and there are multiple other classes that can give bigger Intimidate bonuses, even just with a one-level dip.

[Inevitability]

None of what you say is wrong, but it kind of underscores just how bad Samurai is. If you're getting demoralizing as a move action from your armor, and demoralizing multiple enemies at once from the skill trick, just what are you getting out of the Samurai class any more? Just the +4 bonus to the skill, so far as I can tell, and there are multiple other classes that can give bigger Intimidate bonuses, even just with a one-level dip.

Never Outnumbered is 1/encounter, samurai intimidate is not.

[holbita]

So you are a Samurai 9... unpopular opinion, but may I suggest taking more samurai levels?

You are obviously taking Imperious Command, one more Samurai level would mean AoE Cower (as a natural ability, meaning it ignores the mind-affecting tag, basically you are either immune to fear or you are going to get intimidated).

4 more levels and you would be able to intimidate while keeping your standard action... good timing to get Dual Strike. Now you are using your move action to make everyone 30' away from you lose their turn while you are attacking one of them twice. You still have your swift action available for whatever you want to do with it and you have your Kiai Smite for support (and some may say that with Dual Strike it should apply CHA to damage twice). All of this while having TWF full-attack in the back burner for fear resistant enemies... while being on heavy armor, no DEX required.

Check if you can get access to the Dead Levels article for some intimidate goodies and you'll be served.

We all know that samurai gets some well deserved bad reputation, but you are about to get to the level where the class hits their best spot in the game. Not many instances where you will be able to play something like this... I would go for it fully.

A note on gear after reading other people's comments:

Do NOT buy a fearsome armor, you will get the ability to do what that items does... just extraordinary, not limited by uses and unsunderable... so much much better. You are a samurai, your whole selling point is you get to use fearsome every turn, you are the one character that should not be investing on it.

Basically you should equip yourself as a TWF fighter when it comes to weapons, add a good heavy armor and choose your way to deal with far away enemies (just choose your favorite ranged weapon). You'll be fine.

[Avrodath]

So you are a Samurai 9... unpopular opinion, but may I suggest taking more samurai levels?

You are obviously taking Imperious Command, one more Samurai level would mean AoE Cower (as a natural ability, meaning it ignores the mind-affecting tag, basically you are either immune to fear or you are going to get intimidated).

4 more levels and you would be able to intimidate while keeping your standard action... good timing to get Dual Strike. Now you are using your move action to make everyone 30' away from you lose their turn while you are attacking one of them twice. You still have your swift action available for whatever you want to do with it and you have your Kiai Smite for support (and some may say that with Dual Strike it should apply CHA to damage twice). All of this while having TWF full-attack in the back burner for fear resistant enemies... while being on heavy armor, no DEX required.

Check if you can get access to the Dead Levels article for some intimidate goodies and you'll be served.

We all know that samurai gets some well deserved bad reputation, but you are about to get to the level where the class hits their best spot in the game. Not many instances where you will be able to play something like this... I would go for it fully.

A note on gear after reading other people's comments:

Do NOT buy a fearsome armor, you will get the ability to do what that items does... just extraordinary, not limited by uses and unsunderable... so much much better. You are a samurai, your whole selling point is you get to use fearsome every turn, you are the one character that should not be investing on it.

Basically you should equip yourself as a TWF fighter when it comes to weapons, add a good heavy armor and choose your way to deal with far away enemies (just choose your favorite ranged weapon). You'll be fine.

Thanks for your unexpected answer holbita !
Reading it was like spotting a sparkle of hope, coming out the dead rotten corpse of the samurai class :smallbiggrin:

Embracing the meme and navigating on the intimidation sea at full sail.
I'll really think about it. Thanks again !

[daremetoidareyo]

Thanks for your unexpected answer holbita !
Reading it was like spotting a sparkle of hope, coming out the dead rotten corpse of the samurai class :smallbiggrin:

Embracing the meme and navigating on the intimidation sea at full sail.
I'll really think about it. Thanks again !

There are some first level only feats that can change your trajectory:

Spell fire wielder (changes character fundamentals)
Wild cohort (one feat, amplifies power, lasts till late game)
Hidden talent (opens up warmind)
Shape soulmeld (multi feat investment for best payout)
Bind vestige (refluff as ancestors)
Able learner (chameleon?)
Magical training

[loky1109]

There are some first level only feats that can change your trajectory:

Spell fire wielder (changes character fundamentals)
Wild cohort (one feat, amplifies power, lasts till late game)
Hidden talent (opens up warmind)
Shape soulmeld (multi feat investment for best payout)
Bind vestige (refluff as ancestors)
Able learner (chameleon?)
Magical training
Three of them aren't first level only.

[holbita]

Thanks for your unexpected answer holbita !
Reading it was like spotting a sparkle of hope, coming out the dead rotten corpse of the samurai class :smallbiggrin:

Embracing the meme and navigating on the intimidation sea at full sail.
I'll really think about it. Thanks again !

Happy to hear that!

Trust me, your ninja friend will love you once he realizes that cowering enemies have their DEX negated, and the shugenja may be the strongest member of your party, but once you get your fear lockdown stablished... believe me, if your DM has to point at any character as the broken one it will be yours.

Just come prepared to contribute agains fear immune enemies and ranged attackers, because anything else you should be able to defeat pretty easily.

[claypigeons]

None of what you say is wrong, but it kind of underscores just how bad Samurai is. If you're getting demoralizing as a move action from your armor, and demoralizing multiple enemies at once from the skill trick, just what are you getting out of the Samurai class any more? Just the +4 bonus to the skill, so far as I can tell, and there are multiple other classes that can give bigger Intimidate bonuses, even just with a one-level dip.

You left out the part where I said samurai is notoriously bad.

OP wanted input on a CW samurai. Short or suggesting simply not playing one, I offered worthwhile advice.

[Avrodath]

You left out the part where I said samurai is notoriously bad.

OP wanted input on a CW samurai. Short or suggesting simply not playing one, I offered worthwhile advice.

And that was deeply appreciated !

[SirNibbles]

Dragonscale Husk (Dragon Magic, page 12) is an option since you're taking so many levels of Samurai. It would also save you some money on armor. The major downside is the thematic aspect of not wearing cool samurai armor with a demon mask.

You could also dip two levels of Monk to pick up Invisible Fist, a couple of (Fighter) bonus feats, and maybe trade away that first level feat for a Favored Enemy, which would open up the Intimidate the Enemy feat (Dragon Magazine #335, page 91, allowing you to Demoralize your Favored Enemy as a move action.

[Chronos]

Quoth daremetoidareyou:

Shape soulmeld (multi feat investment for best payout)
More specifically, you want the Fearsome Mask soulmeld. By itself, it gives a +2 bonus to Intimidate. If you can get some essentia somehow (such as the Bonus Essentia feat, which would give 2 points), that bonus goes up by +2 per point (to a total maximum of +10, at high levels). Then, at level 12, you would want the Open Lesser Chakra (Brow) feat, at which point your Fearsome Mask would also give you a fear gaze attack (which also only makes enemies Shaken, but that stacks with your demoralizing).

I don't know if that's worth three feats, but if you're going incarnum, that'd be the way you'd go with it.

[Avrodath]

Thanks a lot for your inputs !

@SirNibbles: Well, we'll play a quite RP heavy campaign, and I think draconic blood and feats will be out of our reach for that said campaign. But i'll keep the Dragonscale Husk idea for another time. Sounds really cool.

@Chronos: We never played a Magic of Incarnum class before, in my group. Even if it sounds quite interesting for an intimidation based character, I think I'll pass on that suggestion. But, thanks ! :smallwink:

[Chronos]

If you're going to be leaning heavily into the Intimidate skill, one thing I just stumbled upon is Battle of Wills, a new skill usage from Tome of Battle. Basically, it lets you make an Intimidate check just before rolling initiative, to gain some bonuses for the combat. The bonuses are minor, but it doesn't require anything but the skill, no action to activate it, so there's no opportunity cost.

[Avrodath]

If you're going to be leaning heavily into the Intimidate skill, one thing I just stumbled upon is Battle of Wills, a new skill usage from Tome of Battle. Basically, it lets you make an Intimidate check just before rolling initiative, to gain some bonuses for the combat. The bonuses are minor, but it doesn't require anything but the skill, no action to activate it, so there's no opportunity cost.

I never heard about that skill usage, and that cowboy's stare feel sounds really great. :smallbiggrin:

I'll talk with my DM if he'll allow it. Thanks for the great find !