(3E/PF1) Changeling-Style Shape Changing without Changeling

[icefractal]

This is a thread about Minor Change Shape, but not about whether it qualifies you for anything. :smallwink:

Instead I'm looking for the reverse - MCS (or an effect like it) without being a Changeling and without any class levels. Ideally without feats, but cost and NPC access aren't a problem as long as it's a one-time thing. Changelings could be assumed to exist in the setting, if that matters.

The reason? It's a physical change that doesn't change your stats or count as a polymorph effect. So for someone who already has an augmented form that won't allow other polymorph effects, it's the best option I've found for disguise purposes.

Since it's for potentially long-term disguise purposes, it needs to last all day and ideally be changeable multiple times during the day. Any ideas? 3.x or PF1 are fine - even 3PP, although please note the source.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The Mind's Eye article regarding the egoist back before WotC started getting rid of all of the 3e stuff had this:


Change Shape
You gain the minor change shape ability, like that of a changeling.
Class: Egoist.
Level: 1st.
Replaces: The bonus feat at 1st level.
Benefit: You gain the minor change shape ability that is possessed by changelings.

Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of a changeling's facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action.

If you're considering going psion anyway...

Also, WoW - Alliance Player's Guide has the Emulate Another feat, which allows you to gain an ability of another creature.

[Paragon]

The Quasilycanthrope (https://web.archive.org/web/20130531114642/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a)template has a "Disguise Self" like ability that actually changes its form if I'm reading it right

[MaxiDuRaritry]

PF's greater hat of disguise (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/hat-of-disguise/) grants alter self at will.

The 3.5 ability is actually better than that, as well as the changeling ability (minus the part where it's inherently a part of you), as you can take the form of animated objects (if you're a warforged) or various outsiders or dragons (if you're an outsider or, y'know, a dragon), etc. So create an at-will greater hat of 3.5 alter self if you want something really nice, which you can upgrade to 3.5 polymorph later.

Or, if you're higher level, commission a 3.5 psychoactive skin of proteus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus). About the only item that's better than a skin of proteus is a skin of proteus with a higher ML.

There's also this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=23285432&viewfull=1#post23285432), if you want to make it inherent.

[icefractal]

Hadn't heard of that Egoist ACF - pretty cool. Requires a class level, but at least Psion is a good class.
The feat looks like it may be the best option at present, albeit 3PP.

Quasilycanthrope, I can't tell if it's a physical change or not. It's implied, but it just says "as Disguise Self", so IDK. Could be a good option though, although limited to humanoids.

Alter Self and Metamorphosis unfortunately fall afoul of the "not compatible with other polymorph effects" issue - the use case I'm looking at it is someone with a permanent polymorph effect that's providing significant bonuses they don't want to lose while being disguised.


I did find one method, although it's kind of overkill and needs the polymorph effect to be permanent rather than instantaneous. So if you want to use with SoP Alteration, you'd need to do some spellcrafting:
1) Acquire a minor artifact, temporarily
2) Cast Ascension (PF1) to give the person who's casting the polymorph effect the Archmage mythic path with the Shifting Mastery ability.
3) That ability modifies the spell rather than the ability itself making the changes, so the fact that Ascension will expire isn't a problem. Enjoy changing forms as a standard action.

Something non-mythic would be better, obviously. :smalltongue:

[Inevitability]

Oozemaster 2 gives you this:


Slithery Face (Su): At 2nd level, the oozemaster learns to manipulate his facial features, gaining a competence bonus equal to his oozemaster level on Disguise checks.

And sure, in game terms it's a relatively minor bonus, but narratively you're shifting your actual facial features, which might matter to your DM.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Couldn't you just use a hat of disguise for at-will disguise self? It's an illusion, but it's good for most things.

Maybe some good old mundane Disguise skill?

[loky1109]

Naberius, 1st level vestige.

[icefractal]

Couldn't you just use a hat of disguise for at-will disguise self? It's an illusion, but it's good for most things.

Maybe some good old mundane Disguise skill?I do have a Hat of Disguise (well, a Western Star Ioun Stone, same effect), but that limits me to staying the same height/build unless I want to risk having it discovered by something as simple as bumping into me.

I should clarify, this isn't a PC, per-se, it's a thought experiment in "How much permanent (as in, without continuing support needed) personal power could someone accrue in a D&D setting by 'merely' being extremely persuasive and well-connected?" So the base character would be a low-level Expert or other NPC class. That means a few feats that can be reassigned via Psychic Reformation, but they're a sharply limited resource (I'm not going with the infinite version of DCFS, because "infinite feats character" is already pretty well-explored).

SoP Fusion + Permanent Transformation solves the squishiness problem and provides a lot of power, but it locks me out from using any other Polymorph effects without losing that power.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is there a way to add the [shadow] descriptor to disguise self? That way it actually changes your appearance, rather than just glamering over it. Bonus points if you have "greater than 100% reality" with your [shadow] spells.

[icefractal]

That's an interesting thought. Shadowcraft Mage can turn certain figments into [shadow] effects, but not Disguise Self.

I also found a second way to do it, which is more reasonable than the mythic route but also more hand-wavey. Brew Fleshcrafting Poison (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/brew-fleshcrafting-poison-item-creation) is a Paizo feat, though it predates Pathfinder proper. Giving the Changeling's ability is easily within what it can do.

However, "what it can do" is so broad that it's completely broken (add any number of special abilities from creatures for a fairly low cost), and doesn't really match the examples of what's been done with it - so it's arguable how functional the feat even is.

That said, the specific ability in question (Minor Change Shape) seems in-line with the power level of the Fleshwarper (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/fleshwarper-item-creation/) effects, so IMO fairly legit, but still technically in the gray area of custom magic items.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Perform a mind-swap with a changeling that has the physical stats you want? Or possess it via ghost (template or savage progression) or fiend of possession? Or how about fusion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm) + astral seed (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) + seppuku to gestalt yourself with a changeling of some description?

[icefractal]

I'm using the SoP Fusion to combine myself with a big construct for durability + stats, and that version only keeps the Ex/Su qualities of the "host" (the construct). I could technically Psionic Fusion afterwards, but they won't be the same type (aberration vs humanoid), and I'm not sure how the "die / astral seed" thing would interact with the other Fusion.

Psionics does have another possible answer - Everyman (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/everyman/) might be what I'm looking for: lasts all day, can change forms multiple times, is a physical change, and doesn't change stats. Although how exactly how much it can shift form is debatable, it doesn't seem quite as potent as MCS.

The other question is how to get it usable every day without any class levels. There's the Advanced Psionic Tattoo web-content which would make it usable daily as long as I have 7 PP / day, but I'm not sure there's a way to do that as a non-manifester.

[Crake]

I'm using the SoP Fusion to combine myself with a big construct for durability + stats, and that version only keeps the Ex/Su qualities of the "host" (the construct). I could technically Psionic Fusion afterwards, but they won't be the same type (aberration vs humanoid), and I'm not sure how the "die / astral seed" thing would interact with the other Fusion.

Psionics does have another possible answer - Everyman (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/everyman/) might be what I'm looking for: lasts all day, can change forms multiple times, is a physical change, and doesn't change stats. Although how exactly how much it can shift form is debatable, it doesn't seem quite as potent as MCS.

The other question is how to get it usable every day without any class levels. There's the Advanced Psionic Tattoo web-content which would make it usable daily as long as I have 7 PP / day, but I'm not sure there's a way to do that as a non-manifester.

Any reason it needs to be an actual physical change and why a hat of disguise doesnt suit your needs?

[icefractal]

For one thing - with a Hat of Disguise, you're limited to staying the same height/build, because if you don't, then someone merely bumping into you could be enough notice the illusion - "wait, why was his shoulder not where it looked like?"

Veil does cover tactile as well, but it's not easy to get as a non-caster, and doesn't let you change disguises during the duration.

Also, there's people with True Seeing and such.

[Crake]

For one thing - with a Hat of Disguise, you're limited to staying the same height/build, because if you don't, then someone merely bumping into you could be enough notice the illusion - "wait, why was his shoulder not where it looked like?"

Veil does cover tactile as well, but it's not easy to get as a non-caster, and doesn't let you change disguises during the duration.

Also, there's people with True Seeing and such.

True seeing pierces transmutations as well as illusions, just a heads up

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could always find a way to semi-permanently steal the form of a phasm (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm), which has the following:


Alternate Form (Su)
A phasm can assume any form of Large size or smaller as a standard action. A phasm can remain in its alternate form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.

Note that you are not limited by HD or CR, so you can literally take epic forms with it, even though the phasm itself only has 15 HD. And that ability is perfectly usable with the (Improved) Assume Supernatural Ability and Metamorphic Transfer feats, so feel free to abuse the crap out of them.

Note that it's "Alternate Form," which has all of the following, according to the entry in the SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm):


Alternate Form
A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

--The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
--The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
--The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
--The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
--The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
--The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
--The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
--Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
--The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
--The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
--Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.


Make note of both the things that stay the same and those that are different. You might find that this is to your liking (or you might not).


Also, there's people with True Seeing and such.True seeing works on transmutative effects such as Minor Change Shape, as well, so that's a no-go.

[Prime32]

RAW nonmagical disguises only care about your Disguise modifier at the time you put the disguise together, so a short-term buff to skill checks can last indefinitely as long as you don't take the disguise off.

If that won't fly, and you just want to hide your character's monstrous appearance rather than swap between forms, then there's the humanoid skin illithid graft from Underdark. For 5,000gp it grants a nonmagical +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to disguise yourself as a specific creature, with a few quirks.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If that won't fly, and you just want to hide your character's monstrous appearance rather than swap between forms, then there's the humanoid skin illithid graft from Underdark. For 5,000gp it grants a nonmagical +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks to disguise yourself as a specific creature, with a few quirks.It's also a magical item as well as a graft, so feel free to further enhance the skin with effects you want to have on you at all times.

I did link to a post where I did that with a psychoactive skin of proteus, gloves to shrink and store items, and a pouch to store them in, I believe. Definitely a nice way to keep your loot from being stolen (sans being flayed, anyway).

Grab the skin graft with Ancestral Relic if you're Good-aligned? Because only good people can bond with items and make them stronger for...some reason?

[Crake]

It's also a magical item as well as a graft, so feel free to further enhance the skin with effects you want to have on you at all times.

Its things like this that are the reason why all custom magic items needs to be approved by the DM, because some people just take the slightest hint of something and just run with it for miles beyond what it was for.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Its things like this that are the reason why all custom magic items needs to be approved by the DM, because some people just take the slightest hint of something and just run with it for miles beyond what it was for.There are rules in the MIC. Adding item #1's effects to item #2 is within RAW, and unless the DM bans the MIC or specifically says you can't follow those rules, they're perfectly valid for being up for grabs.

[Crake]

There are rules in the MIC. Adding item #1's effects to item #2 is within RAW, and unless the DM bans the MIC or specifically says you can't follow those rules, they're perfectly valid for being up for grabs.

The only rules in MIC stated as being “official rules” is the rules for adding COMMON magic item bonuses to existing items, and THOSE are limited to particular slots. A graft, which, if you can even really class it in the same category as a magic item, does not occupy any of those slots, so it is not applicable to that ruleset. The other “rules” are even stated as not being hard and fast rules, and only guidelines:


This isn’t a hard and fast rule, but it’s a reasonable guide that helps maintain some level of flavor and verisimilitude in the magic item system.

[icefractal]

I mean, I don't see a flavor issue with spending more to create a more powerful version of a graft, and in most campaigns it's not much of a difference balance-wise. No slot would mean the spotless price increase I guess.

In this thought experiment I'm focusing more on stuff that's explicitly a graft/cybernetic/whatever, but that's just because otherwise item-op would dominate the whole thing, and I already did that one prior.

[Crake]

I mean, I don't see a flavor issue with spending more to create a more powerful version of a graft, and in most campaigns it's not much of a difference balance-wise. No slot would mean the spotless price increase I guess.

In this thought experiment I'm focusing more on stuff that's explicitly a graft/cybernetic/whatever, but that's just because otherwise item-op would dominate the whole thing, and I already did that one prior.

Adding in things that make SENSE for a graft is fine, but literally just throwing any ability a la carte ontop of it just doesnt fit in with the purpose of verisimilitude behind the MIC guidelines. Like, adding a strength bonus for grafted arms, or a con bonus for a grafted heart makes sense, but slapping on boots of striding and springing, extradimensional space (how would that even work?) mind blank, and wisdom to an arm for example, makes no sense

[Ruethgar]

Two feats, but Transformation with Shifting Disguise from Spheres of Power give you effectively what you are asking for. Using alternate racial features I’m pretty sure you can get Transformation and then as part of a Unified Tradition you can pick Shifting Disguise. Spheres of Origin can let you just pick up both as part of a custom race.