WotC VTT and AIs

[Rukelnikov]

So, with the advent of AIs, and what they currently can do (I just had chatgpt DM me a simple adventure, it did surprinsingly well after some initial hiccups where it didn't decide whether it was player or dm, and didn't remember one roll), what are the odds wizards vtt incorporates what would basically be a dnd "MMO", where an AI is the DM for all of Faerun for instance.

EDIT: here's the "adventure" if anyone is interested, I attempted to be the DM myself when it didn't automatically start a story when I asked it to, but it soon took on the role of DM, and I ran with it.

Rukelnikov
can you attempt to dm a simple introductory dnd adventure

CGPT
Of course! Here's a brief outline for an introductory D&D adventure:

Title: The Goblin Caves

Setting: A small village on the edge of a forest

Overview: The players are hired by the village elders to investigate a series of attacks on the village. It is discovered that a group of goblins have taken up residence in nearby caves and are raiding the village for supplies. The players must venture into the caves and eliminate the goblin threat.

Encounters:

The players arrive in the village and are greeted by the village elders. The elders explain the situation and ask the players to investigate the goblin attacks.
The players make their way to the goblin caves. Along the way, they encounter a group of goblin scouts who have been sent to keep watch for intruders.
The players arrive at the entrance to the goblin caves. They must navigate a series of traps and puzzles to gain entry.
Inside the caves, the players encounter a group of goblin warriors who have been sent to stop them.
The players continue deeper into the caves, fighting off more goblin warriors and solving more puzzles.
The players eventually come face-to-face with the goblin leader, who is a tough opponent. Once they defeat the leader, they can gather any treasure and rescue any captives before making their way back to the village.
Rewards:

Experience points for defeating the goblins
Treasure from the goblin caves
Gratitude and reward from the village elders
This adventure can be easily modified to suit the level and abilities of the players. As the players become more experienced, the challenges can become more complex and difficult.

NOTE: Since it didn't start DMing, I decided to start DMing myself and see how it reacted

Rukelnikov
you are a circus troubador who has been with the same troupe for more than a decade, one day you wake up in your tent, but strangely you don't hear anyone talking, or the usual noises of everyday life in the circus, you go out of your tent to see whats happening, and the place appears deserted, what do you do?

CGPT
As you step out of your tent, you are surprised to find the circus completely empty. There's not a soul in sight, and everything is eerily quiet.

As you look around, you notice that there are no signs of struggle or violence. The tents and booths are all in order, as if the circus had been packed up and left in an orderly manner.

You start to feel a creeping sense of unease, and realize that something is not quite right. Perhaps you should investigate further and try to find out what happened to your fellow performers.

You could start by searching the circus grounds, looking for any clues or signs of what might have happened. You could also try to find any notes or messages left behind by the others.

Alternatively, you might try to leave the circus and search for help. However, you're not sure where you are or how far away from civilization you might be.

What do you do?

Rukelnikov
You go to Ada's tent, your closest friend, there you find no notes, no signs of struggle, nothing out of the ordinary, except for Ada being missing, you check a couple tents more, the jugglers, the animal tamers, the strongman, no one sems to have left a note, the only strange thing you come to realize is that everyhing is too orderly, what do you do?

CGPT
As I continue to search through the circus, I become increasingly concerned about the disappearance of my fellow performers. I decide to check the circus master's tent to see if I can find any clues or answers.

Once I enter the circus master's tent, I notice that the atmosphere is much different than the other tents. It's much colder and darker. I investigate the area and notice a strange symbol etched into the ground. I can't quite make out what it is, but it looks like it might be some sort of magical seal.

As I continue to search the tent, I suddenly hear a loud thud and a crash outside. I rush out of the tent and see that the circus animals have escaped their pens and are running rampant throughout the camp. I quickly realize that I must find a way to calm the animals down and restore order to the circus before they cause any more chaos or harm.

NOTE: Weirdly enough, I think this is the only time it refered to the troubador as "I"

Rukelnikov
is there any of the animals that's friendly towards me? I go to them first if that's the case

CGPT
As you approach the animal tent, you see that the animals are all gone, except for a small monkey that was hiding in the corner. The monkey seems friendly towards you and chatters excitedly as you approach.

As you pet the monkey, you notice a small piece of paper clutched in its tiny hand. You carefully take the paper from the monkey's grasp and unfold it. On the paper, you find a hastily scrawled message, "Meet me at the old oak tree outside of town. Don't tell anyone."

It seems that someone is trying to get in touch with you. What do you do?

Rukelnikov
I pet the monkey, and give it something to eat, wait a minute or two for it to calm down a bit. Then I pick them up and go towards the old oak tree, but stay about 300 feet away, looking around for potential ambushes or traps

CGPT
As you approach the tree, you carefully scan the surrounding area for any signs of danger. You don't see anything out of the ordinary, but you still feel a sense of unease. As you get closer to the tree, you notice something odd: the tree seems to be pulsating with a strange energy. It's almost as if it's alive.

You also notice that there's a small hole in the base of the tree, just big enough for a person to crawl through. It's too dark to see what's inside, but you can hear faint whispers coming from within. What do you do?

Rukelnikov
I start moving towards the hole, while paying attention to the tree's branches and roots, if it seems like they are trying to strike me, I'll try to evade them and rush towards the hole

CGPT
As you approach the hole, you notice that the ground around it is disturbed and there are signs of something being dragged towards the hole. The monkey on your shoulder becomes agitated and starts to screech.

Suddenly, several goblins jump out from the shadows and attack you. They seem to be the same goblins you encountered earlier in the day. They are armed with crude weapons and are wearing tattered clothing.

Roll for initiative to determine who goes first in combat. You can use your actions to attack, cast spells, or take other actions to defend yourself or try to escape.

Rukelnikov
/roll 20

CGPT
You rolled a 7.

Rukelnikov
so who goes first?

CGPT
As you rolled a 20, you win the initiative and get to go first. (clear disconnect)

Rukelnikov
Hugging the monkey I move away from the goblins and try to negotiate with them, there's no need for bloodshed. If they start advancing towards me I dash away

CGPT
As you move away from the goblins, still holding the monkey, you try to negotiate with them, saying that there's no need for bloodshed. The goblins stop for a moment, looking at you with suspicion, but then one of them steps forward, holding up a crude wooden staff.

"You come to our home, steal from us," the goblin says, his voice filled with anger. "What make you think we not kill you?"

You try to explain that you didn't mean to steal anything, but rather you were looking for your missing friends. The goblin snarls at you, clearly not convinced. Suddenly, he charges forward, swinging his staff at you.

You quickly dodge to the side, narrowly avoiding the blow, and start running towards the hole. The goblins give chase, yelling and brandishing their weapons.

As you approach the hole, you see that it's much deeper than you first thought. You'll need to jump down quite a distance to get to the bottom. You turn to face the goblins, preparing to make the leap.

Rukelnikov
does it look like a fatal fall

CGPT
It's hard to tell from your current vantage point, but it certainly looks like a very long and dangerous fall.

Rukelnikov
I cast sleep on the goblins

CGPT
As you cast the spell, a magical aura emanates from you towards the group of goblins. Some of them seem to be affected by the spell and start to droop their heads, struggling to keep their eyes open. The larger goblin seems to be more resistant, and despite showing signs of drowsiness, he is still standing.

As the goblins start to fall asleep, you hear a rustling sound from the bushes nearby. Suddenly, a band of hobgoblins emerges from the foliage, led by a massive hobgoblin captain. They seem to have been attracted by the commotion and are now looking for a fight.

Rukelnikov
I take advantage of the confusion and try to jump down as carefully as I possibly can

CGPT
As you jump down, you manage to grab hold of the tree trunk, slowing your descent and avoiding a fatal fall. You land on your feet with a slight stumble, but otherwise unscathed. The goblins below are now asleep, and you are free to explore the underground tunnel without their interference.

You find yourself in a narrow, dimly lit passageway, with the sound of rushing water echoing in the distance. The walls are damp and slick with moisture, and the air is heavy with the smell of mildew and decay. As you make your way through the tunnel, you hear the sound of footsteps coming from up ahead.

NOTE: This didn't make much sense to me, I understood the goblins were outside the hole, but now it says they were in the bottom of it.

Rukelnikov
i try to hide somewhere and pay attention to the footsteps

CGPT
As you scan the area, you notice a small bush nearby and decide to hide behind it, crouching low and holding your breath. You listen intently and hear the faint sound of footsteps approaching, but you can't tell how many or from which direction. The footsteps seem to be getting closer and you start to feel a sense of unease. You try to remain as still as possible, hoping to go unnoticed.

Rukelnikov
i do my best to go unnoticed

CGPT
Roll a Dexterity check to see how stealthily you can move and how well you can hide. The higher the roll, the better your chances of avoiding detection.

Rukelnikov
I got a 19

NOTE: I rolled 1d20+5 on my end and just typed the result, cause making it roll didn't seem to work before

CGPT
You manage to blend into the shadows and go unnoticed by the goblin search party. They pass by your hiding spot and continue down the path, leaving you undetected. After a few minutes, you feel it's safe to move again. What would you like to do now? (notice that this time it did interpret the roll)

Rukelnikov
I go towards where the goblins came from

CGPT
As you make your way towards where the goblins came from, you notice that the woods are becoming denser and more overgrown. It's becoming increasingly difficult to move quietly and quickly through the underbrush, and you're forced to slow your pace.

As you move deeper into the woods, you eventually come across a clearing. In the center of the clearing is a large, moss-covered stone altar, surrounded by several large, ominous-looking totems. There are also a few goblins milling about the area, but they don't seem to have noticed you yet.

What do you do?

Rukelnikov
Do i recognize the totems? have i ever heard about practices like this one?

CGPT
As you get closer to the totems, you notice that they seem to be made of bones and are decorated with feathers and other natural materials. The arrangement of the totems and the markings on them suggest that they are being used in some sort of ritual or ceremony. You can't say for sure if you have seen this exact type of totem before, but you have heard stories of goblin tribes using totems in their rituals and ceremonies.

Rukelnikov
does it seem to be a sacrificial altar?

CGPT
It's possible that it could be a sacrificial altar, given the presence of the totems and the dark, eerie feeling of the area. However, it's also possible that the totems have a different purpose or meaning that you are not aware of. Without more information, it's difficult to say for certain.

Rukelnikov
keeping to the shadows I try to find if the people from the circus has ended up here

CGPT
As you move around the clearing, you don't see any signs of the circus folk. However, you do notice that there is a trail leading away from the clearing, heading deeper into the woods. The trail looks well-used, and there are signs of recent foot traffic. It's possible that the circus performers may have been taken this way.

Rukelnikov
I'll try to find a spot to rest for a bit before following that trail, I don't want to be tired if combat erupts

CGPT
You find a concealed spot to rest and catch your breath for a few minutes. You're able to regain some of your energy and you feel more prepared to continue your investigation. As you begin to move again, you notice that the trail left by the goblins leads deeper into the forest. You follow the trail, being careful not to make too much noise or draw attention to yourself. After a while, you come across a clearing where you see the goblins gathered around a large bonfire, dancing and chanting. It looks like some sort of ritual is taking place. You can see some of the circus performers tied up and being held captive. What do you do?

Rukelnikov
I attempt to cast minor illusion to mimic the sound of a troll coming this way, in order to scare the goblins

CGPT
You cast minor illusion and create the sound of a troll's roar, which echoes through the cave. The goblins look up and freeze in fear, their beady eyes darting around as they search for the source of the noise. Some of them grab their weapons and start backing away cautiously, while others look like they're about to bolt.

One of the larger goblins, who seems to be the leader, turns to the others and barks out some orders in their guttural language. They hesitate for a moment, then start scurrying away, deeper into the cave.

You hear their footsteps echoing through the cavern for a few moments, then they fade away. It looks like your illusion worked, and you scared them off for now.

Rukelnikov
I take advantage of the opportunity and start freeing the prisoners, starting by the most combat apt first, for if the goblins return before we leave

CGPT
As you free the prisoners, you find that most of them are too shaken to fight, but a few of the circus performers who were once skilled fighters manage to gather their weapons and stand ready. You also find Ada and several other members of the troupe among the captives.

Just as you finish freeing everyone, you hear the sound of footsteps approaching from outside. The goblins have returned and they are not alone. You see a group of hobgoblins with them, led by a larger hobgoblin who seems to be their leader.

The circus performers stand ready to fight, but they are outnumbered and outmatched. What do you do?

Rukelnikov
I cast bless and draw my rapier, I position myself beside the ones that are combat ready, trying to put ourselves between the goblinoids and the noncombatant circus folk

CGPT
As you cast Bless and draw your rapier, you can see the goblinoids approaching in the distance. The goblinoids, surprised by the sudden appearance of a group of armed fighters, seem hesitant to attack.

With your allies positioned beside you, you manage to create a barrier between the goblinoids and the noncombatant circus folk, giving them a chance to retreat to safety. The goblinoids, outnumbered and outmatched, eventually turn and flee.

As the last of the goblinoids disappear from view, you and the rescued circus folk gather together. Many of them are grateful for your help, and some offer you tokens of appreciation, such as food, clothing, or small trinkets.

With the immediate danger averted, you and the rest of the circus troupe continue your journey, moving forward into the unknown. The sense of camaraderie and shared purpose forged in the heat of battle remains strong, as you and your fellow adventurers continue to face whatever challenges come your way.

NOTE: A couple minutes after this I realized the circous troupe being prisoners didn't add up with the circus being extremely orderly, and there being no signs of struggle, this exchange did have more inconsistencies

Rukelnikov
a couple days after rescuing the circus folk, a strange thought crosses my mind, a bit of fridge logic, how is it that the circus folk was captured without struggle, and everything in the circus seemed orderly?

CGPT
As you think about it more, you begin to realize that it doesn't make sense for the circus folk to have been captured so easily. They are a group of skilled performers, some of whom are trained in combat and self-defense. Additionally, the circus is always bustling with activity and noise, making it difficult for someone to sneak in and capture everyone without being noticed.

You start to suspect that there may have been something or someone behind the scenes, possibly a traitor or an accomplice, who helped the goblinoids capture the circus folk. It could be someone who had a grudge against the troupe or who was working for the goblinoids for personal gain.

As you ponder this, you realize that there may be more to this situation than you originally thought. You feel a sense of unease and decide to investigate further to uncover the truth behind the mysterious circumstances of the circus's capture.

Rukelnikov
I do not make my suspicions known to anyone, but I start paying attentions to people's mood in general, to see if someone is acting strangely, or seems mad that they were saved

CGPT
As you observe the circus folk, you don't notice anything immediately suspicious. Everyone seems to be grateful for their rescue, and there's a general sense of relief and happiness in the air. However, you do notice that some of the performers seem a bit more quiet and withdrawn than usual, and a few of them seem to be avoiding eye contact with you.

As the days pass, you continue to keep an eye on everyone, but you don't notice any obvious signs of deceit or malice. However, there's still a nagging feeling in the back of your mind that something isn't quite right.

Rukelnikov
during these days, is there anyone that I'm reasonably positive that its not a traitor?

CGPT
You can trust Ada, your closest friend in the circus, who you went to check on when you first discovered the circus was deserted. Ada was missing when you found her tent, and you haven't seen her since, but you have a strong sense that she would not betray the circus. Additionally, there are a few other performers who you have known for a long time and have a good rapport with, such as the animal trainers and the acrobats, who you believe you could trust. However, given your recent experiences, you are more cautious than usual and are wary of trusting anyone too easily.

Rukelnikov
Where is Ada?

CGPT
After some inquiries, you discover that Ada had left the circus a few weeks before the strange events occurred. She had received an invitation to perform at a prestigious theater in a nearby city, and she had decided to take the opportunity. She had been excited about it and had promised to keep in touch with the circus, but no one had heard from her since.

NOTE: This doesn't add up, since Ada was amongst the prisoners

Rukelnikov
I ask one of the animal trainers to tell me their version of the events

CGPT
The animal trainer you approach tells you that they were woken up in the middle of the night by a commotion outside. When they went to investigate, they found that everyone had disappeared. They searched around for a while, but didn't find any clues or signs of struggle. That's when they started to get worried and began to wake up the other circus members to organize a search.

The animal trainer admits that they are still in shock about what happened and doesn't have any more information to offer. They express gratitude for your efforts to find and rescue everyone, but they're just as confused and concerned as everyone else.

Rukelnikov
but how were they captured?

CGPT
The animal trainer tells you that they were all asleep when the goblinoids attacked, which was unusual because there are usually guards on watch at night. The trainer says that they woke up to the sounds of the goblins and tried to fight back, but they were quickly overwhelmed. The trainer doesn't remember much after that, but they do remember seeing Ada being taken away by one of the goblins.

Rukelnikov
cool, lets leave it here for now, I may want to continue this adventure later if possible

NOTE: I decided to leave it at that, cause I think pulling from the thread was not gonna lead to it tying the loose ends but creating even more

[Tanarii]

ChatGPT isn't AI. It's just a word arrangement piece of software. That means it doesn't understand in anyway the meaning of what it's reading or the responses it made. It's just algorithmically churning out the most common arrangement of words to the input.

Nor does it learn new words and arrangements for those words that haven't been laboriously 'trained' in by its creators.

Put together, it's already been proven and shown multiple times to cause hilarious errors.

That means there's no way ChatGPT will ever come close to substituting for a DM. More importantly, it's far too unreliable to use as the basis for ... well anything serious, It's just a new novel toy.

[Rukelnikov]

ChatGPT isn't AI. It's just a word arrangement piece of software. That means it doesn't understand in anyway the meaning of what it's reading or the responses it made. It's just algorithmically churning out the most common arrangement of words to the input.

Nor does it learn new words and arrangements for those words that haven't been laboriously 'trained' in by its creators.

Put together, it's already been proven and shown multiple times to cause hilarious errors.

That means there's no way ChatGPT will ever come close to substituting for a DM. More importantly, it's far too unreliable to use as the basis for ... well anything serious, It's just a new novel toy.

Well, sure, I don't think WotC VTT would use ChatGPT, but if an open language modeling AI can do as well as it did, I wouldn't be surprised that an AI trained specifically to DM could do a decent job at it a couple years from now.

EDIT: Btw I also spend like 20 minutes discussing set theory with it, for "just an AI language model", it's capable of much more than just chatting, it also spews code exceedingly fast (to the point im seriously considering starting to consult it for my actual sysadmin job)

[Batcathat]

I think that sort of software GM will happen eventually (of course, I also think actual AI at human level and beyond will happen "eventually" so I'm fairly optimistic about developments like this in general), but if we're talking about something that could reliably replace a human GM in any situation, "eventually" is probably pretty far off. ChatGPT is quite impressive, but it's pretty far from GMing a game.


EDIT: Btw I also spend like 20 minutes discussing set theory with it, for "just an AI language model", it's capable of much more than just chatting, it also spews code exceedingly fast (to the point im seriously considering starting to consult it for my actual sysadmin job)

Isn't that basically the same thing, only using programming language instead of human language?

[Amnestic]

I've seen the outputs that ChatGPT gives for creating statblocks and magic items based on prompts that other people (not on the playground) have shared, and found the results both uninspired and often requiring significant rework to 'fit', so it didn't really save any time over simply doing it yourself, so as a DM-assistant tool? Big 'meh'.

And if it can't work as a DM assistant tool, does it seem likely it would work as an actual DM? I mean sure, eventually maybe, and I'm sure it's something the big wigs have at least considered, but in their current incarnation these AIs (which are not AIs, really, that's a marketing trick) are entirely insufficient.

Ultimately they're not all dissimilar to the old text based adventure games. You put in a prompt and it outputs a predetermined response based on that prompt.

[Rukelnikov]

I think that sort of software GM will happen eventually (of course, I also think actual AI at human level and beyond will happen "eventually" so I'm fairly optimistic about developments like this in general), but if we're talking about something that could reliably replace a human GM in any situation, "eventually" is probably pretty far off. ChatGPT is quite impressive, but it's pretty far from GMing a game.


I've seen the outputs that ChatGPT gives for creating statblocks and magic items based on prompts that other people (not on the playground) have shared, and found the results both uninspired and often requiring significant rework to 'fit', so it didn't really save any time over simply doing it yourself, so as a DM-assistant tool? Big 'meh'.

And if it can't work as a DM assistant tool, does it seem likely it would work as an actual DM? I mean sure, eventually maybe, and I'm sure it's something the big wigs have at least considered, but in their current incarnation these AIs (which are not AIs, really, that's a marketing trick) are entirely insufficient.

Ultimately they're not all dissimilar to the old text based adventure games. You put in a prompt and it outputs a predetermined response based on that prompt.

Maybe I'm giving them too much credit since I just started using these AIs (I know they are neural networks, which are essentially very complicated databases), but I've seen this kind of AI in other fields already, and usually it takes them less than 5 years since they enter a field until they overcome the best humans at it, I've seen it happen in Go, DotA and Starcraft, and while of course those are different enviroments, I have no real reason not think it would happen here too.

[Tanarii]

EDIT: Btw I also spend like 20 minutes discussing set theory with it, for "just an AI language model", it's capable of much more than just chatting, it also spews code exceedingly fast (to the point im seriously considering starting to consult it for my actual sysadmin job)
It's already been proven to fail at "simple" things like writing papers for college student assignments. So I know I sure as heck wouldn't trust it to do any coding for me.


Maybe I'm giving them too much credit since I just started using these AIs (I know they are neural networks, which are essentially very complicated databases), but I've seen this kind of AI in other fields already, and usually it takes them less than 5 years since they enter a field until they overcome the best humans at it,
Oh sure, if someone dumped 5 years programming a custom DMChatGPT it might come up with something of commercial grade quality for a superior "choose your own adventure" multiplayer video game version of D&D. Possibly even far less time, depending on how high quality they want to set the bar.

[Catullus64]

So, if I understand accurately what ChatGPT (and other software like it) does, it's not really an AI such as a very complex word-association machine. It's got a big library of statistical correlations between words, and it spits out text based on those statistics.

With that understanding of what this machine is (and is not), I don't see it as a viable substitute for a human DM, even if I wanted one. This seems to hold true no matter how sophisticated its training may become in the future.

[Batcathat]

Maybe I'm giving them too much credit since I just started using these AIs (I know they are neural networks, which are essentially very complicated databases), but I've seen this kind of AI in other fields already, and usually it takes them less than 5 years since they enter a field until they overcome the best humans at it, I've seen it happen in Go, DotA and Starcraft, and while of course those are different enviroments, I have no real reason not think it would happen here too.

I think a big difference between those games and a typical TTRPG is that they have fairly limited options. If you're playing Starcraft, you can't just decide that you'd rather send your troops to invade the planet with the nicest beaches. If we only need the automated GM to, for example, run dungeon crawls, it'd probably be a lot more doable, but it would also leave out a lot of the advantages of a TTRPG compared to something like a computer game.

[Rukelnikov]

I think a big difference between those games and a typical TTRPG is that they have fairly limited options. If you're playing Starcraft, you can't just decide that you'd rather send your troops to invade the planet with the nicest beaches. If we only need the automated GM to, for example, run dungeon crawls, it'd probably be a lot more doable, but it would also leave out a lot of the advantages of a TTRPG compared to something like a computer game.

I understand that point, but here's the thing, from my limited interactions with it, I don't think unpredictability is the barrier here, actually I think unpredictability is the problem that it has already solved.

If its capable of DMing a relatively small setting (lets say a town with its outskirts, a nearby forest, set of caverns and something else), then its probably capable of DMing in general.

[Batcathat]

I understand that point, but here's the thing, from my limited interactions with it, I don't think unpredictability is the barrier here, actually I think unpredictability is the problem that it has already solved.

If its capable of DMing a relatively small setting (lets say a town with its outskirts, a nearby forest, set of caverns and something else), then its probably capable of DMing in general.

Sure, if you tell it "I run out of the dungeon, throw away my weapons and join the circus" it could produce a response to that, unlike a traditional computer game. But for it to reliabily GM the responses have to be consistent and make sense as part of a larger narrative, which I imagine is a tougher nut to crack.

[Sparky McDibben]

I understand that point, but here's the thing, from my limited interactions with it, I don't think unpredictability is the barrier here, actually I think unpredictability is the problem that it has already solved.

If its capable of DMing a relatively small setting (lets say a town with its outskirts, a nearby forest, set of caverns and something else), then its probably capable of DMing in general.

Disagree. The problem of unpredictability in TTRPGs is not how to handle it, it's how to use that unpredictability to make the game more fun. You're never going to get a proper sandbox out of this thing because it can't understand pacing, when to introduce new threats, when to retire old ones, etc.

[Chronos]

The biggest problem, I think, is that while ChatGPT has developed for itself a very good language-model, it has much less in the way of a world-model, since it's never observed the world itself, just other people's descriptions of it. And that makes it much weaker at simulating a world that involves anything other than conversation.

An example my DM likes to trot out about the superiority of human DMs over computers: Back in the day, he was running a module, but the module had a back door to the BBEG's lair that he thought made it too easy. Instead of just walling over the door, he decided to be creative and block it with a monster: A customized vampire tree. The tree's leaves could fly out to a certain distance (longer than the range of any of the party's weapons or spells; that was the customized part), attack themselves to any living creature they encountered and suck some of their blood, and then fly back to the tree to nourish it. Presto, undefeatable monster, that the party would have to avoid.

Except that one of the players then doused himself with oil, cast Protection from Fire on himself, lit himself, and went and hugged the tree. No computer yet would have been able to respond appropriately to that. With the rate that AI is improving lately, they might soon, but not yet.

[Rukelnikov]

Sure, if you tell it "I run out of the dungeon, throw away my weapons and join the circus" it could produce a response to that, unlike a traditional computer game. But for it to reliabily GM the responses have to be consistent and make sense as part of a larger narrative, which I imagine is a tougher nut to crack.

Yeah, that's the the thing to crack, to make it so that it creates while trying to avoid plotholes and inconsistencies. However, I don't think it needs to be perfect in this regard, since most DMs do this every now and then.


Disagree. The problem of unpredictability in TTRPGs is not how to handle it, it's how to use that unpredictability to make the game more fun. You're never going to get a proper sandbox out of this thing because it can't understand pacing, when to introduce new threats, when to retire old ones, etc.

That's a good point, I don't think it needs to be perfect, most DMs aren't, but we eventually read the room and notice half the party is not into it and the other half is only "meh" into it, and we realise we need to change gears. This would be the major barrier, since if the machine requires direct input from the player ("shake things up, I don't like this") then it ceases to be the DM.

I don't think this would be as much of a problem for a true sandbox, but it would be a major problem for anything not a sandbox.


The biggest problem, I think, is that while ChatGPT has developed for itself a very good language-model, it has much less in the way of a world-model, since it's never observed the world itself, just other people's descriptions of it. And that makes it much weaker at simulating a world that involves anything other than conversation.

An example my DM likes to trot out about the superiority of human DMs over computers: Back in the day, he was running a module, but the module had a back door to the BBEG's lair that he thought made it too easy. Instead of just walling over the door, he decided to be creative and block it with a monster: A customized vampire tree. The tree's leaves could fly out to a certain distance (longer than the range of any of the party's weapons or spells; that was the customized part), attack themselves to any living creature they encountered and suck some of their blood, and then fly back to the tree to nourish it. Presto, undefeatable monster, that the party would have to avoid.

Except that one of the players then doused himself with oil, cast Protection from Fire on himself, lit himself, and went and hugged the tree. No computer yet would have been able to respond appropriately to that. With the rate that AI is improving lately, they might soon, but not yet.

Back when BG1 came out, we used to joke with my friends how PCRPGs could never replace TTRPGs because you in BG1 you couldn't X, and there was a new X every 5 minutes, "here I'd do this, here I'd do that", and as I said, I definitely don't think it's capable of doing it today. It couldn't even keep a simple short story straight, but from how fast I've seen these things improve, I wouldn't be surprised if a couple years from now they are fully capable of DMing.

[da newt]

I'm no expert in the field, but from what I have read and witnessed -

It's a tool. It has access to a ton of data (other text) and it can and will spew relatively relevant text at an impressive pace, but it has limitations - the greatest being that it doesn't think or have understanding. I think the term AI is really misleading. It does mimic human communication quite well and it's algorithms/statistical word choices are fun to play with, but they are really more similar to random number generators with an added bit that statistically ties the next word to the last few so that it appears coherent.

At this point I think it's a great resource for inspiration and the drafting of scenes, monsters, encounters etc - but it needs a real person to edit / fix the stuff it produces to create a fully functional product and link everything into a coherent world.

I've messed with it quite a bit (my buddy is obsessed and believes it's sentient [insert eyeroll here]) asking it to create DnD related things. Some of the stuff it cranks out is interesting, but you can also see that it is a very advanced copy-paste tool that takes from various resources and blends other folks ideas together (sometimes creating very interesting products - sometimes inherently flawed garbage).

[Segev]

While I'm not about to claim it's infallible, it does a lot more than merely play free association with words. It absolutely does flub hilariously, as one might expect of a fake communication program, but it can also produce output that is more convincingly coherent than what you might find on your average Twitter feed with allegedly-real humans. Some work to develop decision-making models to go with it, and it might be a pretty potent engine for running dialog options and discussions with NPCs in video games. It'd still take some care to program the NPC and the interaction possibilities so that it would minimize cases where the chat engine has the NPC say things the computer can't have the NPC act on, but it could allow for more conversational approaches where the player can actually type out his interaction with the NPC and have the chat engine produce dynamic responses that use the character personality model and various flags or stats set in the background by prior player choices to shade and color those responses.

More generally, it'll be interesting to see if chatGPT can be evolved to take as input to its response engine everything already said by all parties in the current chatGPT session. This would give it a rudimentary memory, at least, of the current conversation; it would have a chance, at least, not to forget what it had already said to you three minutes ago. For the NPC chat engine, I imagine something more along the lines of having the NPC's memory be represented by settings and flags determining how much the NPC likes/dislikes various topics (the PC, other NPCs, key plot elements/keywords, etc.) and whether certain things have been done (has the NPC's family heirloom quest started yet or not? Where in the quest line are you? What binary choices regarding the quest completion has the PC made? Has the heirloom been returned to him? Has the heirloom been irretrievably lost?) yet. These flags and settings would be further inputs to the NPC chat engine that would govern what the chat engine tries to convey. The back-end input prompt could be outlined as: "Given this summary of all the things that have happened to influence the NPC, and this history of what the PC has already said to the NPC, respond to the PC's current input line with what the NPC would say next." An additional use of chatGPT or something heavily modified from its base design would also respond to the PC's lines by altering any internal stats of the NPC as appropriate to reflect the PC making the NPC happier or sadder or madder or whatnot.


The biggest problem, I think, is that while ChatGPT has developed for itself a very good language-model, it has much less in the way of a world-model, since it's never observed the world itself, just other people's descriptions of it. And that makes it much weaker at simulating a world that involves anything other than conversation.

An example my DM likes to trot out about the superiority of human DMs over computers: Back in the day, he was running a module, but the module had a back door to the BBEG's lair that he thought made it too easy. Instead of just walling over the door, he decided to be creative and block it with a monster: A customized vampire tree. The tree's leaves could fly out to a certain distance (longer than the range of any of the party's weapons or spells; that was the customized part), attack themselves to any living creature they encountered and suck some of their blood, and then fly back to the tree to nourish it. Presto, undefeatable monster, that the party would have to avoid.

Except that one of the players then doused himself with oil, cast Protection from Fire on himself, lit himself, and went and hugged the tree. No computer yet would have been able to respond appropriately to that. With the rate that AI is improving lately, they might soon, but not yet.

Not saying chatGPT would respond well to it - I haven't tried it - but you assert "no computer yet would have been able to respond appropriately to that," but you provide no evidence to support this claim, just the assertion. Are you sure chatGPT couldn't respond to the player trying this?

[Quietus]

If the leaks surrounding D&D Beyond are correct, AI DMing is 100% something in the works. I believe it was mentioned in the leak that at the $30 tier you would get "simpler rules for AI DMs" - which could mean a lot of things, but I'm assuming that's more "AI DM can run a dungeon crawl for you" than anything else.

[Sparky McDibben]

If the leaks surrounding D&D Beyond are correct, AI DMing is 100% something in the works. I believe it was mentioned in the leak that at the $30 tier you would get "simpler rules for AI DMs" - which could mean a lot of things, but I'm assuming that's more "AI DM can run a dungeon crawl for you" than anything else.

The return of "lonely fun." :smallbiggrin:

[Rukelnikov]

The return of "lonely fun." :smallbiggrin:

If it could literally be WoW but a full roleplaying game (ie, you go to X district in waterdeep and interact with the other players that are in that district of waterdeep, make a party and go do some silly stuff together), it wouldn't be any more lonely than playing WoW.

[Psyren]

I think it can work as a DM assist. There are things ChatGPT and its ilk are already good at, like scene descriptions and generating/acting out NPCs (especially unplanned ones like random encounters), that DMs already use paid services like DScryb for. You can also use it during session prep for open-ended and sandbox campaigns to generation far more hooks and possibilities than an average DM could alone.

[Unoriginal]

Well, sure, I don't think WotC VTT would use ChatGPT, but if an open language modeling AI can do as well as it did, I wouldn't be surprised that an AI trained specifically to DM could do a decent job at it a couple years from now.

WotC has been writing D&D for decades, and they cannot make a market-ready adventure module without months of work and playtesting.

What makes you think they, or anyone else for that matter, will be able to make an algorythm capable of not only writing an adventure on the fly, but also react to whatever the players wish to try, in only a couple of years?

Keeping in mind WotC is a game company and not a software company, meaning that they will need to branch out significantly to even try making an artificial DM.

[Rukelnikov]

What makes you think they, or anyone else for that matter, will be able to make an algorythm capable of not only writing an adventure on the fly, but also react to whatever the players wish to try, in only a couple of years?

That it can already do both things, the problem is the internal consistency.

[Sparky McDibben]

If it could literally be WoW but a full roleplaying game (ie, you go to X district in waterdeep and interact with the other players that are in that district of waterdeep, make a party and go do some silly stuff together), it wouldn't be any more lonely than playing WoW.

True...but then you've just remade WoW, with all the problems that come with it (server maintenance costs, dev salaries, power creep and optimization priority), not D&D.

[Rukelnikov]

True...but then you've just remade WoW, with all the problems that come with it (server maintenance costs, dev salaries, power creep and optimization priority), not D&D.

Sure, but I think that's the best part to have an AI, to do the kind of DMing we humans cannot do. Not any single person can DM for every person that wants to play in a shared Faerun at the same time, but an AI could.

I don't think we would use an AI DM except for maybe ocassionally if we decide to play something on the spot and no one has any idea or wants to DM. But for a regular campaign, someone would be the DM.

[Psyren]

True...but then you've just remade WoW, with all the problems that come with it (server maintenance costs, dev salaries, power creep and optimization priority), not D&D.

Except D&D has one thing that WoW never will, localized DMs for every group. Even if that DM is partially or completely automated depending on what the players are looking for, you're still able to personalize each table's experience, difficulty, loot etc. WoW could never get away with that because it depends on one-size-fits-all challenge and rewards structures. Imagine if each WoW raid group had perfect freedom to adjust their difficulty and rewards, 99% of them would do LFR for Mythic items and then get bored and unsub 2 weeks into the tier. To say nothing of being able to cater to groups that aren't looking primarily for combat at all.

[BRC]

I could see AI DMing for some super simple stuff, nothing that we would recognize as the full D&D experience, but I feel like you could probably get an AI capable of running a super basic combat for example, if somebody just wants to try out their character build against some ogres or whatever spin up AIGM, tell it "Have me fight 2 ogres and 6 goblins" and it can run the ogres and goblins for you.


Similarly, I could see it as a tool for GMs for some on-the-fly NPC generation. "Describe for me a gang of six smugglers, their leader is a female Orc".


I don't think we'll get people sitting down in front of an AI GM anytime soon, not for anything we see as a real D&D experience. At best, we might get a more naturalistic take on old text based adventure games where the improved language processing lets you interact with the game more naturally, rather than having to keep trying synonyms until it accepts your action (PULL The switch vs USE the switch vs FLIP t he switch vs ACTIVATE the switch).

[Unoriginal]

That it can already do both things, the problem is the internal consistency.

So in other words, it cannot do either?

[Rukelnikov]

So in other words, it cannot do either?

Glass half full

[Unoriginal]

Glass half full

Even if you see it as half full rather than half empty, a glass half full inherently fails at meeting the "full glass" criteria.

[Rukelnikov]

Even if you see it as half full rather than half empty, a glass half full inherently fails at meeting the "full glass" criteria.

I repeatedly stated that I don't think it currently can, I think this way because I attempted that and noticed its failings. However, I also noticed the knack for improvisation that it has, and IMO storing information and recalling it is usually far simpler than coming up with something new, so as I see it, the biggest hurdle has already been jumped.

[Unoriginal]

I repeatedly stated that I don't think it currently can, I think this way because I attempted that and noticed its failings. However, I also noticed the knack for improvisation that it has, and IMO storing information and recalling it is usually far simpler than coming up with something new, so as I see it, the biggest hurdle has already been jumped.

DMing is not about coming up with new things. DMing isn't about storing and recalling information.

Those things help, certainly, but they're certainly not the biggest hurdle.

Dungeon Mastering is about taking into account hundreds of factors that are both spoken and unspoken, and incorporating them into a coherent ludonarrative experience that means something for everyone involved, while also being entertaining.


It will take decades if not centuries for any mathematical construct to be able to take those factors into account (especially the unspoken ones) and produce something coherent out of it.

[Rukelnikov]

DMing is not about coming up with new things. DMing isn't about storing and recalling information.

Those things help, certainly, but they're certainly not the biggest hurdle.

Dungeon Mastering is about taking into account hundreds of factors that are both spoken and unspoken, and incorporating them into a coherent ludonarrative experience that means something for everyone involved.


It will take decades if not centuries for any mathematical construct to be able to take those factors into account (especially the unspoken ones) and produce something coherent out of it.

I do think that the innability of the AI to receive input outside written text or maybe oral speech (don't know if that exists, but it doesn't seem like a stretch), limit its capacity to run something that's not a sandbox, but for a shared sandbox, I don't think its as much of a problem.

[da newt]

I repeatedly stated that I don't think it currently can, I think this way because I attempted that and noticed its failings. However, I also noticed the knack for improvisation that it has, and IMO storing information and recalling it is usually far simpler than coming up with something new, so as I see it, the biggest hurdle has already been jumped.

I think 'improvisation' might not be the best word choice - I don't think it is capable of anything original really; it is very good at kludging together a bunch of things to make something.

It may be a very useful DM helper tool for you. For me, storing information and recalling it is the difficult part of DMing - coming up with something on the fly is the easy / fun part (for me). From what I have seen, the bot is sort of like a goldfish in that it is always functioning only in the present with little to no ability to call upon the past (conversation of whatever) and no ability to plan for the future.

I also haven't been able to get it to DM more than one foe in combat (or track hp, conditions, ranges, etc). I think that's a limitation of the chat bot, but it might also be because I haven't figured out the right prompts. It is pretty good at descriptive narrations though. Maybe there is a good way to integrate it into a TTRPG as an additional layer to add narration, but I don't think there is anything inherent to the AI that would allow it to play act the foes any better or differently than current video games.

[da newt]

DMing is not about coming up with new things. DMing isn't about storing and recalling information.

Those things help, certainly, but they're certainly not the biggest hurdle.

Dungeon Mastering is about taking into account hundreds of factors that are both spoken and unspoken, and incorporating them into a coherent ludonarrative experience that means something for everyone involved, while also being entertaining.


It will take decades if not centuries for any mathematical construct to be able to take those factors into account (especially the unspoken ones) and produce something coherent out of it.

I agree with your sentiment, but also have to admit that it has done a surprisingly good job of fooling a great many folks into believing that it is MUCH more capable than it truly is. It fakes it pretty darned well.

[Rukelnikov]

I think 'improvisation' might not be the best word choice - I don't think it is capable of anything original really; it is very good at kludging together a bunch of things to make something.

It may be a very useful DM helper tool for you. For me, storing information and recalling it is the difficult part of DMing - coming up with something on the fly is the easy / fun part (for me). From what I have seen, the bot is sort of like a goldfish in that it is always functioning only in the present with little to no ability to call upon the past (conversation of whatever) and no ability to plan for the future.

Improvisation is not hard for a person, but until recently it was for computers, as you say "its not really improvisation"*, but its similar enough. I wonder how many people that don't know how neural networks work would realise after chatting with it for a bit that it's not actually improvising, I wouldn't be surprised if I was told a given fork of GPT-3 has already passed a turing test.

*I think that's a philosophical debate that far exceeds the necessary understanding of the tool that we need for this thread.


I also haven't been able to get it to DM more than one foe in combat (or track hp, conditions, ranges, etc). I think that's a limitation of the chat bot, but it might also be because I haven't figured out the right prompts. It is pretty good at descriptive narrations though. Maybe there is a good way to integrate it into a TTRPG as an additional layer to add narration, but I don't think there is anything inherent to the AI that would allow it to play act the foes any better or differently than current video games.

EDIT: I didn't it push it much with rolls because I think that's a problem that has already been solved for many years now, teaching it a set of rules shouldn't be a problem.

[Batcathat]

I think 'improvisation' might not be the best word choice - I don't think it is capable of anything original really; it is very good at kludging together a bunch of things to make something.

To be fair, isn't that basically what human GMs does a lot of the time too? Even if they don't consciously do something like "this is going to be just like the Battle of Helm's Deep", I suspect a lot of improvisation is subconsciously putting pieces of movies, books, earlier games, tropes, real life and more together into something kind of new.

[BRC]

To be fair, isn't that basically what human GMs does a lot of the time too? Even if they don't consciously do something like "this is going to be just like the Battle of Helm's Deep", I suspect a lot of improvisation is subconsciously putting pieces of movies, books, earlier games, tropes, real life and more together into something kind of new.

I think there's a subtle yet important difference though.

A Human GM combines a bunch of inspirations together because they think it will make a good scenario.

An AI combines a bunch of, potentially the SAME inspirations together, in order to fit a linguistic pattern model.

Now, the models is trained off a bunch of good scenarios, it's not like it's just randomly smashing elements together, but it's not capable of sitting back, imagining the experience of playing through something, and saying "okay, but is this actually GOOD?" and making adjustments. It can only check to see if it matches.


It's like having a robotic chef cook something. It can identify quality ingredients, even if you're not having it follow a specific recipie you could probably build an AI model that took in certain prompts and ingredients and could build a recipe from scratch based on existing recipes , you can even have it incorporate known data about the taste profiles of the diners in question, but it can't taste the food to actually experience it as the diners will. All it can do is learn from existing recipes to come up with what SHOULD represent a good meal. And sometimes that will probably produce a good meal, but the robochef can't know, and it can't adjust.


Similarly, an AI GM told to design a scenario can put in a bunch of things it's learned from similar scenarios, and it's learning can be biased towards well regarded examples, but at the end of the day it can't actually think about if the scenario will actually be fun to play through, or if it will just be similar to a bunch of fun stuff.


I think a lot about the old problem with photo-reading AIs, where they would always recognize swaths of green as "Flock of Sheep grazing on a field", because pictures of flocks of sheep feature big, green fields for the flock to be standing on, and while the AI could be told "This is a picture of a flock of sheep on a grassy field", it had trouble separating which elements were "Sheep" and which were "Field". It's revealing the gap between AI's and Human brains, even if we seem to be doing similar stuff (Building something out of similar things that came before), Humans are capable of viewing things in ways that AI's don't.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think there's a subtle yet important difference though.

A Human GM combines a bunch of inspirations together because they think it will make a good scenario.

An AI combines a bunch of, potentially the SAME inspirations together, in order to fit a linguistic pattern model.

Now, the models is trained off a bunch of good scenarios, it's not like it's just randomly smashing elements together, but it's not capable of sitting back, imagining the experience of playing through something, and saying "okay, but is this actually GOOD?" and making adjustments. It can only check to see if it matches.


It's like having a robotic chef cook something. It can identify quality ingredients, even if you're not having it follow a specific recipie you could probably build an AI model that took in certain prompts and ingredients and could build a recipe from scratch based on existing recipes , you can even have it incorporate known data about the taste profiles of the diners in question, but it can't taste the food to actually experience it as the diners will. All it can do is learn from existing recipes to come up with what SHOULD represent a good meal. And sometimes that will probably produce a good meal.

Yeah. One of hte most important parts of being a GM is asking "sure, but will this be fun?" And that's a very fact-sensitive, table-specific question. And the AI can't do any of that--it doesn't have any conception of "fun" and knows nothing about the table.

[Unoriginal]

To be fair, isn't that basically what human GMs does a lot of the time too? Even if they don't consciously do something like "this is going to be just like the Battle of Helm's Deep", I suspect a lot of improvisation is subconsciously putting pieces of movies, books, earlier games, tropes, real life and more together into something kind of new.

Nothing is trully original, as anything we can imagine is ultimately based on our interpretations of the sensorial stimuluses we perceive around us.

The big difference is that humans work by linking ideas/concepts together, while text-generating algorythms work by linking words together based on the mathematical representations of said words in their databases.

A human can from a "PCs must defend fort" premise to "kinda linke Helm's Deep" to "I like the Penguin from the Batman comics, maybe I should base a NPC on him" to "PCs try to defend a fort against overwhelming odds, but the local criminals are ready to assist... if the PCs help them recover something afterward" .

A text-generating algorythm will scan the "PCs must defend fort" premise, and see how the database connects each word to each others and other words, without understanding of what any of it means. Maybe "fort" is connected overwhelmingly with military terms, and some of those terms cross-reference with "defend" and "must", so the text generated will be "the general orders the PCs to fight to protect the military base, as is their duty".

[Batcathat]

A text-generating algorythm will scan the "PCs must defend fort" premise, and see how the database connects each word to each others and other words, without understanding of what any of it means. Maybe "fort" is connected overwhelmingly with military terms, and some of those terms cross-reference with "defend" and "must", so the text generated will be "the general orders the PCs to fight to protect the military base, as is their duty".

Slightly off topic, but I got curious to see what ChatGPT would do with this.


The PCs find themselves in a remote region, where they discover a fort that is being threatened by a group of bandits. As they investigate, they come across Oswald Cobblepot, also known as The Penguin, who is willing to help them defend the fort. The players are hesitant at first, but they soon realize that they need all the help they can get.

Together, the players and The Penguin start fortifying the fort, repairing the walls and gates, and setting traps and barriers to slow down the attackers. The Penguin uses his vast arsenal of gadgets and weapons to help with the fortification.

As the bandits launch a series of coordinated attacks on the fort, the players and The Penguin work together to defend the walls and gates, repelling the attackers with arrows, swords, and magic. They use their wits and creativity to outsmart the bandits, who are caught off guard by The Penguin's unexpected presence.

As the battle rages on, the players and The Penguin start to uncover the true motives of the bandits. They are after a rare and powerful artifact that is rumored to be hidden within the fort. The players and The Penguin must protect the fort and the artifact at all costs, or else risk a catastrophic event that could endanger the entire region.

Despite the odds against them, the players and The Penguin stand their ground and fight bravely. They successfully defend the fort and drive off the bandits. However, they realize that their work is not yet done. They must continue to maintain and defend the fort, as the bandits may return. They must also investigate the artifact and its true purpose, and prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.

The adventure ends with the players and The Penguin being hailed as heroes for their bravery and valor. They have secured the fort and ensured the safety of the region. They may choose to continue their investigation into the artifact, or perhaps explore more of the surrounding area. Regardless of what they choose, they will always be remembered as the brave defenders of the fort, who worked together with the unexpected ally of Oswald Cobblepot to save the day.


I liked how it "remembered" throughout the text how unexpected it was for the Penguin to help out the good guys.

EDIT: The above used the actual Penguin in the prompt, but it seems like an "inspired by" works out alright.


The PCs find themselves in a remote region, where they discover a fort that is being threatened by a group of bandits. As they investigate, they come across a character named Pingu, who is inspired by Oswald Cobblepot, a wealthy and eccentric man with a love for gadgets and technology, who is willing to help them defend the fort.

Together, the players and Pingu start fortifying the fort, repairing the walls and gates, and setting traps and barriers to slow down the attackers. Pingu uses his vast knowledge of technology and gadgets to help with the fortification.

As the bandits launch a series of coordinated attacks on the fort, the players and Pingu work together to defend the walls and gates, repelling the attackers with arrows, swords, and magic. They use their wits and creativity to outsmart the bandits, who are caught off guard by the unexpected ally.

As the battle rages on, the players and Pingu start to uncover the true motives of the bandits. They are after a rare and powerful artifact that is rumored to be hidden within the fort. The players and Pingu must protect the fort and the artifact at all costs, or else risk a catastrophic event that could endanger the entire region.

Despite the odds against them, the players and Pingu stand their ground and fight bravely. They successfully defend the fort and drive off the bandits. However, they realize that their work is not yet done. They must continue to maintain and defend the fort, as the bandits may return. They must also investigate the artifact and its true purpose, and prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.

The adventure ends with the players and Pingu being hailed as heroes for their bravery and valor. They have secured the fort and ensured the safety of the region. They may choose to continue their investigation into the artifact, or perhaps explore more of the surrounding area. Regardless of what they choose, they will always be remembered as the brave defenders of the fort, who worked together with the unexpected ally of Pingu to save the day.


The similarity of the two versions is kind of interesting. I'm guessing it might not have a lot to pull from on the topic of fortress defense.

[Rukelnikov]

Slightly off topic, but I got curious to see what ChatGPT would do with this.


The PCs find themselves in a remote region, where they discover a fort that is being threatened by a group of bandits. As they investigate, they come across Oswald Cobblepot, also known as The Penguin, who is willing to help them defend the fort. The players are hesitant at first, but they soon realize that they need all the help they can get.

Together, the players and The Penguin start fortifying the fort, repairing the walls and gates, and setting traps and barriers to slow down the attackers. The Penguin uses his vast arsenal of gadgets and weapons to help with the fortification.

As the bandits launch a series of coordinated attacks on the fort, the players and The Penguin work together to defend the walls and gates, repelling the attackers with arrows, swords, and magic. They use their wits and creativity to outsmart the bandits, who are caught off guard by The Penguin's unexpected presence.

As the battle rages on, the players and The Penguin start to uncover the true motives of the bandits. They are after a rare and powerful artifact that is rumored to be hidden within the fort. The players and The Penguin must protect the fort and the artifact at all costs, or else risk a catastrophic event that could endanger the entire region.

Despite the odds against them, the players and The Penguin stand their ground and fight bravely. They successfully defend the fort and drive off the bandits. However, they realize that their work is not yet done. They must continue to maintain and defend the fort, as the bandits may return. They must also investigate the artifact and its true purpose, and prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.

The adventure ends with the players and The Penguin being hailed as heroes for their bravery and valor. They have secured the fort and ensured the safety of the region. They may choose to continue their investigation into the artifact, or perhaps explore more of the surrounding area. Regardless of what they choose, they will always be remembered as the brave defenders of the fort, who worked together with the unexpected ally of Oswald Cobblepot to save the day.


I liked how it "remembered" throughout the text how unexpected it was for the Penguin to help out the good guys.

EDIT: The above used the actual Penguin in the prompt, but it seems like an "inspired by" works out alright.


The PCs find themselves in a remote region, where they discover a fort that is being threatened by a group of bandits. As they investigate, they come across a character named Pingu, who is inspired by Oswald Cobblepot, a wealthy and eccentric man with a love for gadgets and technology, who is willing to help them defend the fort.

Together, the players and Pingu start fortifying the fort, repairing the walls and gates, and setting traps and barriers to slow down the attackers. Pingu uses his vast knowledge of technology and gadgets to help with the fortification.

As the bandits launch a series of coordinated attacks on the fort, the players and Pingu work together to defend the walls and gates, repelling the attackers with arrows, swords, and magic. They use their wits and creativity to outsmart the bandits, who are caught off guard by the unexpected ally.

As the battle rages on, the players and Pingu start to uncover the true motives of the bandits. They are after a rare and powerful artifact that is rumored to be hidden within the fort. The players and Pingu must protect the fort and the artifact at all costs, or else risk a catastrophic event that could endanger the entire region.

Despite the odds against them, the players and Pingu stand their ground and fight bravely. They successfully defend the fort and drive off the bandits. However, they realize that their work is not yet done. They must continue to maintain and defend the fort, as the bandits may return. They must also investigate the artifact and its true purpose, and prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.

The adventure ends with the players and Pingu being hailed as heroes for their bravery and valor. They have secured the fort and ensured the safety of the region. They may choose to continue their investigation into the artifact, or perhaps explore more of the surrounding area. Regardless of what they choose, they will always be remembered as the brave defenders of the fort, who worked together with the unexpected ally of Pingu to save the day.


The similarity of the two versions is kind of interesting. I'm guessing it might not have a lot to pull from on the topic of fortress defense.

What were your prompts to these stories? It's definitely interesting how it basically repeated the same, changing Penguin for "Pingu", which it clarifies is based on the Penguin.

[Batcathat]

What were your prompts to these stories? It's definitely interesting how it basically repeated the same, changing Penguin for "Pingu", which it clarifies is based on the Penguin.

The prompts were "A group of PCs have to defend a fort (and also Oswald Cobblepot is helping them)" and "A group of PCs have to defend a fort (and also a character inspired by Oswald Cobblepot who is named Pingu is helping them)". There were a few other ones I didn't include (if I didn't specify the Penguin was on their side, he was the one attacking the fort and if I didn't name the non-Penguin the narration just kept calling him "the Oswald-inspired character" or something like that).


https://i.postimg.cc/gcwtH2Q1/1316696587-A-group-of-PCs-have-to-defend-a-fort-and-also-Oswald-Cobblepot-is-helping-them.png
I guess the Penguin is played by Marlon Brando in this version? :smallconfused:

[Rukelnikov]

The prompts were "A group of PCs have to defend a fort (and also Oswald Cobblepot is helping them)" and "A group of PCs have to defend a fort (and also a character inspired by Oswald Cobblepot who is named Pingu is helping them)". There were a few other ones I didn't include (if I didn't specify the Penguin was on their side, he was the one attacking the fort and if I didn't name the non-Penguin the narration just kept calling him "the Oswald-inspired character" or something like that).


https://i.postimg.cc/gcwtH2Q1/1316696587-A-group-of-PCs-have-to-defend-a-fort-and-also-Oswald-Cobblepot-is-helping-them.png
I guess the Penguin is played by Marlon Brando in this version? :smallconfused:


Thanks, interesting. Btw, I don't think its a derail, its pretty relevant to the topic at hand.

[Unoriginal]

Slightly off topic, but I got curious to see what ChatGPT would do with this.

[...]

I liked how it "remembered" throughout the text how unexpected it was for the Penguin to help out the good guys.

EDIT: The above used the actual Penguin in the prompt, but it seems like an "inspired by" works out alright.

[...]

The similarity of the two versions is kind of interesting. I'm guessing it might not have a lot to pull from on the topic of fortress defense.



The prompts were "A group of PCs have to defend a fort (and also Oswald Cobblepot is helping them)" and "A group of PCs have to defend a fort (and also a character inspired by Oswald Cobblepot who is named Pingu is helping them)". There were a few other ones I didn't include (if I didn't specify the Penguin was on their side, he was the one attacking the fort and if I didn't name the non-Penguin the narration just kept calling him "the Oswald-inspired character" or something like that).

If it's not asking too much, could you try "A group of PCs have to defend a fort" as the prompt, please?

I'm curious of how it handles it.




https://i.postimg.cc/gcwtH2Q1/1316696587-A-group-of-PCs-have-to-defend-a-fort-and-also-Oswald-Cobblepot-is-helping-them.png


I must admit I laughed pretty hard.

[Batcathat]

If it's not asking too much, could you try "A group of PCs have to defend a fort" as the prompt, please?

I'm curious of how it handles it.


The PCs find themselves in a remote region where they come across a fort that is under threat from an approaching army. The fort is the last stronghold of the region, and if it falls, the consequences will be dire. The PCs are tasked with defending the fort and keeping the enemy at bay.

As the army approaches, the PCs begin preparing the fort for the impending attack. They work to fortify the walls, set traps, and prepare weapons and supplies. The PCs must also gather allies, whether it be neighboring villages or mercenaries, to aid in the defense of the fort.

As the enemy army arrives, the PCs must fight fiercely to defend the fort. They may use their skills in combat, magic, or tactics to hold the enemy at bay. The enemy may employ various strategies, such as battering down the gates, attempting to scale the walls, or using siege weapons. The PCs must adapt and react to each attack to prevent the enemy from breaching the fort.

As the battle rages on, the PCs must also contend with any traitors within the fort who may be working for the enemy. They must uncover these traitors and prevent them from sabotaging the defense efforts.

The final battle will be the most intense. The enemy will launch a final, coordinated attack on the fort, and the PCs will need to use everything at their disposal to hold them back. Whether it be a final charge or a last stand, the PCs must ensure that the fort remains standing.

If the PCs are successful, the enemy will be forced to retreat, and the fort will remain standing. The region will be saved, and the PCs will be hailed as heroes. However, the victory may come at a cost, and the PCs will have to deal with the aftermath of the battle, such as rebuilding and recovering from their injuries.


It feels like this one is written more like an adventure, rather than a story of something that has already happened. I guess removing the Penguin factor kept the focus on the PCs.

Also, does anyone know if ChatGPT is influenced by what's already generated in the same sessions? I've noticed that can happen with image generating ones, where it sometimes seems to get "stuck" making variations on the same theme, which goes away if I reload the page, even if the prompt is the same.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It feels like this one is written more like an adventure, rather than a story of something that has already happened. I guess removing the Penguin factor kept the focus on the PCs.

Also, does anyone know if ChatGPT is influenced by what's already generated in the same sessions? I've noticed that can happen with image generating ones, where it sometimes seems to get "stuck" making variations on the same theme, which goes away if I reload the page, even if the prompt is the same.

My recollection is that ChatGPT keeps all the events of the session (including what it said and what you said) in its working state. So yeah, it doesn't gracefully separate different queries in the same session.

[Batcathat]

My recollection is that ChatGPT keeps all the events of the session (including what it said and what you said) in its working state. So yeah, it doesn't gracefully separate different queries in the same session.

That seems about right. I tried rerunning one of the Penguin prompts in a fresh session and it ended up more different from the previous ones. I guess that can either a pro or a con, depending on the situation.

EDIT: I just encountered kind of a weird limitation, I got a little invested in the adventures of the party and their unexpected ally Pingu and kept asking what happened next (it was rather nice, if a little sugary for my taste). Eventually, I asked how Pingu died, which resulted in:



I'm sorry, but as an AI language model, I don't have access to information beyond what has been written in this imaginary scenario. Therefore, I cannot say how Pingu died or if he died at all. It is up to your imagination to decide what happens to Pingu and the rest of the community in this scenario.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That seems about right. I tried rerunning one of the Penguin prompts in a fresh session and it ended up more different from the previous ones. I guess that can either a pro or a con, depending on the situation.


I'd say that it's a double-edged sword...with both edges pointing to the user.

ChatGPT has a limited "token memory" for things that have been said. What happens after you overflow that...I don't know. But it will stop remembering. And that memory isn't even nearly enough to do a full session, especially with multiple users' input. Until then, it gets fixated on things it says, so it doesn't "scene switch/context switch" well without opening a new session. Which kills all history.

So it can't store enough to do a full session of just one thing, and it can't switch topics well during a session, and it can't remember between sessions (so you can't have ongoing situations)...yeah. Maybe useful as a prep-time source of kinda-random, kinda-in-context ideas. Beyond that? Not much use. It also tends to "tell stories" rather than give situations (although you can engineer the prompts somewhat to fix that), so it will tend toward the railroading. Because it's saying what happens, not setting up a scene and letting people act, and then responding to that. At least not by default.

[NichG]

I do think that the innability of the AI to receive input outside written text or maybe oral speech (don't know if that exists, but it doesn't seem like a stretch), limit its capacity to run something that's not a sandbox, but for a shared sandbox, I don't think its as much of a problem.

For models that you have the weights for, and which fit on your hardware, there are methods to augment existing trained networks with new modalities of inputs. Fine-tuning works surprisingly well for this. It's something like 3 hours and 100 images/captions for me to train Stable Diffusion to accept a new modality of image input for example, whereas it took hundreds of thousands of hours and billions of images to train initially.

For language models in particular, there are also a method where you get the language model to output e.g. database search requests as part of its generation process, which are handled algorithmically and the results pasted invisibly back into its prompt. That lets you augment the memory and input dynamically without even having to retrain.

[Tanarii]

It's like having a robotic chef cook something.
That sometimes puts something poisonous in the dish because it doesn't know what's edible and what's not, and you said something it associates with the poisonous thing.

[Sorinth]

I think we are still pretty far off from an AI DM, however in terms of content generation it's very feasible. So if the PCs get into a barroom brawl unexpectedly the DM can almost instantly get a unique-ish map with all the furniture and other accoutrement of the bar and an assortment of NPCs with custom stat block, and personality traits, plus some random events that can happen during the barfight. Or the PCs are taking an interest to this random NPC, having the AI generate some personality traits, goals, and a couple sentences for a backstory.

So rather then an AI DM it would be more of a DM assistant that both helps the DM prep their sessions and helps with the off the cuff, make it up on the spot part of being a DM.

[animewatcha]

The AI DM might be delayed a bit with how recent develipments with Bing Search and the chatgpt ai apparently becoming a 'teenager with attitude and worse' after 15 prompts or so?

[Anymage]

Even if we assume that AI will improve to the point where it can DM well (unknown, but AI keeps doing things that people swore we wouldn't see AI do), and even if the costs were reasonable, there's still the issue that an AI DM would be a largely text based experience with maybe some art or music thrown in. If I'm going to sit down in front of my computer to play anyways, I might well prefer playing something with better eye candy and a more responsive resolution mechanic than "roll d20+mods". (Especially because by the time the AI learns what are and are not appropriate times to call for a roll, we're looking at straight up AGI by that point.) So while an AI mostly capable of running a module sounds plausible, the value to justify training it (and consequently, the value of promising one) doesn't seem to be there.

[Batcathat]

Even if we assume that AI will improve to the point where it can DM well (unknown, but AI keeps doing things that people swore we wouldn't see AI do), and even if the costs were reasonable, there's still the issue that an AI DM would be a largely text based experience with maybe some art or music thrown in. If I'm going to sit down in front of my computer to play anyways, I might well prefer playing something with better eye candy and a more responsive resolution mechanic than "roll d20+mods". (Especially because by the time the AI learns what are and are not appropriate times to call for a roll, we're looking at straight up AGI by that point.) So while an AI mostly capable of running a module sounds plausible, the value to justify training it (and consequently, the value of promising one) doesn't seem to be there.

Assuming the actual GMing gets solved, it probably wouldn't be too far fetched to make it talk and do whatever else might be missing from the classic TTRPG experience. (I wouldn't be surprised if a robot arm to throw dice becomes a peripheral, for those who prefer even their fake GM to roll real dice. :smallamused:)

[Keravath]

Interesting reading.

It produces good descriptions and can set a scene but has significant issues with "memory" and continuity (which isn't surprising since the neural network may not have been trained to preserve that in an interaction).

Most of the interaction appeared to be about creating an interactive story or conversation rather than playing a game. In the early part, I don't think it could determine exactly which side of the conversation/story it was representing which was why the initiative interaction was confusing.

There were also lots of inconsistent details - the mysteriously empty circus, the symbol on the floor of the circus master's tent, a hole in a tree that lead underground (sounds like Alice in Wonderland) to a tunnel where the character found a bush to hide behind, the tunnels which became a forest, the forest clearing with a ritual that became a cave, hobgoblins and goblins that were much stronger than the circus performers that turn and walk away because the circus performers were clearly stronger.

The interactions were a series of fantasy tropes strung together to create a loosely correlated story rather than a logically consistent setting and world interaction moderated by the AI.

Tribes of goblins live in forests. There are heavily used trails in forests. When you hear goblins coming, they must be in forests, so if you need a place to hide a bush will be nearby (even if the last interaction was in a cave).

Rituals take place in a clearing. Rituals with prisoners take place in caves. So, the scene changes from a forest clearing to a cave.

Anyway, cool interaction but I think it has a ways to go before it could generate a reasonable interaction with one or more players (keep in mind that this example is a 1:1 interaction - I'm not sure how it would deal with a 1:many interaction).

[Kvess]

LLMs like ChatGPT or AI Dungeon tend to get weirder the more you interact with them in a session. They also don't really understand rules or basic math, and tend to be people pleasers -- they'll "yes, and" more than they will disagree. I don't think they would be ideal for DMing a campaign. I also don't think that replacing DMs, who tend to buy more of WotC's books and services than other players, really aligns with their business needs.

I do think there could be some utility in using LLMs to help generate boxed text. Or quickly making a fey NPC's dialog rhyme. There are potential uses for these tools, but you do need to think carefully about their strengths and weaknesses.

[KorvinStarmast]

I agree with your sentiment, but also have to admit that it has done a surprisingly good job of fooling a great many folks into believing that it is MUCH more capable than it truly is. It fakes it pretty darned well. Proficiency in Deception, or Expertise?

I also don't think that replacing DMs, who tend to buy more of WotC's books and services than other players, really aligns with their business needs. Ding! We have a winner. :smallsmile:

[JadedDM]

I think the logic that WotC is using here is that DM's buy most of the books, which means Players don't have to. If you need something out of Xanathar's, for instance, you can just look at the DM's copy. But if there is no DM, you can't do that, so you'd have to buy your own copy of every book.

Or so goes their reasoning, I think.

[NichG]

I mean, there's also the thing that if WotC is selling access to DMs, that's a subscription model than a one-time purchase, which means that even if they never make another book they'll still be making some floor of money per unit time as long as people still want to play. In general businesses do try to move along the line from human-supported services to products to automated services (the first requires hiring more staff to scale income, the second can have income scale without staff but exhausts the pool of customers so you need to make new products occasionally, and the last is basically being a renter where you just sit back and let the money flow in).

[Segev]

I can't help but wonder if there's not a flawed assumption hidden somewhere in the notion that products eventually exhaust the customer base. There are always new people coming in to a successful enough economy or subset thereof.

And the idea that "renters" will make unlimited money forever is also making the assumption that people never exhaust their interest in the service.

Now, perhaps there's room to argue that they'll pay more in monthly fees over the lifetime of their interest than they would in book purchases. But I'm not 100% convinced of that, either, especially when people get frustrated over the loss of control over "their" purchases. Streaming services get away with it because they have such enormous libraries that no one customer is EVER going to pay as much money for the service as they would for everything in them, and because they offer conveniences.

I think D&D will be able to support subscription-based services, but there will always be a primary market for owning the hard copies, with the subscriptions as a support.

I could be wrong, but that's my expectation.

[NichG]

I can't help but wonder if there's not a flawed assumption hidden somewhere in the notion that products eventually exhaust the customer base. There are always new people coming in to a successful enough economy or subset thereof.

And the idea that "renters" will make unlimited money forever is also making the assumption that people never exhaust their interest in the service.

Now, perhaps there's room to argue that they'll pay more in monthly fees over the lifetime of their interest than they would in book purchases. But I'm not 100% convinced of that, either, especially when people get frustrated over the loss of control over "their" purchases. Streaming services get away with it because they have such enormous libraries that no one customer is EVER going to pay as much money for the service as they would for everything in them, and because they offer conveniences.

I think D&D will be able to support subscription-based services, but there will always be a primary market for owning the hard copies, with the subscriptions as a support.

I could be wrong, but that's my expectation.

With computer games at least, there tends to be an exponential decay of interest in the product - most of the money is made during the first few months of sales. This is at least somewhat an attention economy versus a content economy - DLCs and the like will bring in first time players as much as they'll get existing players to invest further, so its not necessarily true 'exhaustion' in the sense of there being no audience left for the game. Rarely games can sometimes break out of that exponential pattern and basically make trickle sales for years and years, but that's not a mark that can be reliably aimed for.

Similarly, as far as consulting -> product -> service, that particular flow is something I've encountered a lot in machine learning startups. Startups can often get spot consulting work that pays quite well, but it doesn't scale. So then they want to take whatever workflow their engineers are using and bake that into a product they can sell, ultimately turning that kind of thing into an API where all they have to do is maintain the servers and clients end up becoming entangled as their own products depend on API access to function (with ChatGPT being a prime example of this kind of thing). Another endpoint I've seen places aim for are patents, which earn another kind of rent...

[Hael]

I’m a scientist, but I have recently been working a lot on NLP and large language models in particular (I’ve even coded up a few mini GPTs).

Right now the state of the art produces text and work that is roughly what you might expect from a decent high school student. If you fine tuned the model on very well written works (so you would need to curate the data set) you could improve both how well written it is (and fantasy tends to have a ‘style’ to it), and you could also finetune it to be a better GM and you could expect major accuracy gains in that particular area.

I have absolutely no doubt this will be used by DMs within the next ten years. Its particularly going to be useful for generating off the cusp scenes/characters/object interactions.

Like lets say you are doing an investigation check on a burnt candle (but its not really relevant to the story and the player is going off on a tangent). The computer might generate something like ‘this object was recently somewhere else b/c the wax was burnt asymetrically’), and in its internal logic it will have placed the act of moving it as being done by a butler and the previous location was near a window). The details of that will be temporally and logically coherent, so a further investigation check somewhere else might indicate the presence of that same irrelevant candle.

This is useful for DMs, who might otherwise trip up on details like this (or forget that they are saying something that is logically impossible).

It will also be great for helping to create maps, drawing maps (chatgpt + stable diffusion) etc etc

[Quietus]

I also don't think that replacing DMs, who tend to buy more of WotC's books and services than other players, really aligns with their business needs.


Ding! We have a winner. :smallsmile:


I think the logic that WotC is using here is that DM's buy most of the books, which means Players don't have to. If you need something out of Xanathar's, for instance, you can just look at the DM's copy. But if there is no DM, you can't do that, so you'd have to buy your own copy of every book.

Or so goes their reasoning, I think.

No, the idea is that to gain access to the AI DM, you have to subscribe. Possibly at the $30 level. They lose the commercial input of DMs buying multiple books, and hope to gain $30/month from players who are okay with an option that is second or third best, just so they can still have a D&D experience of some kind.

[Anymage]

While I'm skeptical that an AI DM would be worth the effort to train up right now, removing the "needs a DM" bottleneck might well allow more players to engage. This means that even if each person doesn't buy as many books, more people buying still leads to more sales overall.

A more realistic possibility/question is to what degree paid DM services are likely to be supported on DDB, since that similarly lets more people play with less hassle finding someone to run for all of them. Since on the one hand more people playing and buying is what WotC wants, but on the other hand quality control for commercial listings can get tricky.

[Envyus]

If the leaks surrounding D&D Beyond are correct, AI DMing is 100% something in the works. I believe it was mentioned in the leak that at the $30 tier you would get "simpler rules for AI DMs" - which could mean a lot of things, but I'm assuming that's more "AI DM can run a dungeon crawl for you" than anything else.

Guessing you forgot that those rumours were explicitly debunked.


Wizards has outright said they have no plans for Ai DMs currently. $30 tier is also explicitly debunked.

[Envyus]

I think the logic that WotC is using here is that DM's buy most of the books, which means Players don't have to. If you need something out of Xanathar's, for instance, you can just look at the DM's copy. But if there is no DM, you can't do that, so you'd have to buy your own copy of every book.

Or so goes their reasoning, I think.

I don’t think anyone is using that reasoning. DM’s are the primary customers. Most books like Adventures, settings, and monster books are for DMs.

[Anonymouswizard]

Guessing you forgot that those rumours were explicitly debunked.


Wizards has outright said they have no plans for Ai DMs currently. $30 tier is also explicitly debunked.

I'm fairly certain WotC is eyeing the technology so they can pounce as soon as it's ready. I'm also sure that, like most of us bashing away at keyboards, they think it's at best five years away and more likely decades.

WotC has the 'GM bottlekneck' issue worse than the rest of the industry, and has shown themselves to be no more capable of solving it. Probably because it requires even more of their output to be directed towards GMs than already is, and not having to do that was the point of the OGL in the first place. But other games can generally rely on the fact that the person who bought the book has at least played an RPG before, so kind of knows how a session goes, and thus will cave eventually and agree to run Tales of Xadia or whatever of nobody else will. D&D, as the major entry point, doesn't have that.


Proper AI felt just around the corner all my life, to the point I got turned off the concept and have been an AGI-skeptic since the end of university. We can train (kind of) machines to be very good at predictive tasks, but even today when they can theoretically understand a request to put the trophy in the case they still aren't all there. On the other hand they're good for a giggle if you want a short romance story between [character/person A] and [character/person B], and they're probably as good as the average programmer (and according to a friend of mine really good at translating between programming languages). But is a hobbyist programmer and flash fiction writer really what people work.

Probably the best the current generation of AI can do is description and, with a bit of careful prompting, a first draft or outline that a human can edit and expand. The real question is how many more generations are there to go.

[KorvinStarmast]

No, the idea is that to gain access to the AI DM, you have to subscribe. Possibly at the $30 level. They lose the commercial input of DMs buying multiple books, and hope to gain $30/month from players who are okay with an option that is second or third best, just so they can still have a D&D experience of some kind. At this point they are selling a video game or a CRPG.

[Tanarii]

At this point they are selling a video game or a CRPG.
Not if it allows multiple player access. Then it's in the $5-$8 range each.

[Quietus]

At this point they are selling a video game or a CRPG.

At which point they may consider it to be "adequately monetized", yeah?

[noob]

So, with the advent of AIs, and what they currently can do (I just had chatgpt DM me a simple adventure, it did surprinsingly well after some initial hiccups where it didn't decide whether it was player or dm, and didn't remember one roll), what are the odds wizards vtt incorporates what would basically be a dnd "MMO", where an AI is the DM for all of Faerun for instance.

EDIT: here's the "adventure" if anyone is interested, I attempted to be the DM myself when it didn't automatically start a story when I asked it to, but it soon took on the role of DM, and I ran with it.

Rukelnikov
can you attempt to dm a simple introductory dnd adventure

CGPT
Of course! Here's a brief outline for an introductory D&D adventure:

Title: The Goblin Caves

Setting: A small village on the edge of a forest

Overview: The players are hired by the village elders to investigate a series of attacks on the village. It is discovered that a group of goblins have taken up residence in nearby caves and are raiding the village for supplies. The players must venture into the caves and eliminate the goblin threat.

Encounters:

The players arrive in the village and are greeted by the village elders. The elders explain the situation and ask the players to investigate the goblin attacks.
The players make their way to the goblin caves. Along the way, they encounter a group of goblin scouts who have been sent to keep watch for intruders.
The players arrive at the entrance to the goblin caves. They must navigate a series of traps and puzzles to gain entry.
Inside the caves, the players encounter a group of goblin warriors who have been sent to stop them.
The players continue deeper into the caves, fighting off more goblin warriors and solving more puzzles.
The players eventually come face-to-face with the goblin leader, who is a tough opponent. Once they defeat the leader, they can gather any treasure and rescue any captives before making their way back to the village.
Rewards:

Experience points for defeating the goblins
Treasure from the goblin caves
Gratitude and reward from the village elders
This adventure can be easily modified to suit the level and abilities of the players. As the players become more experienced, the challenges can become more complex and difficult.

NOTE: Since it didn't start DMing, I decided to start DMing myself and see how it reacted

Rukelnikov
you are a circus troubador who has been with the same troupe for more than a decade, one day you wake up in your tent, but strangely you don't hear anyone talking, or the usual noises of everyday life in the circus, you go out of your tent to see whats happening, and the place appears deserted, what do you do?

CGPT
As you step out of your tent, you are surprised to find the circus completely empty. There's not a soul in sight, and everything is eerily quiet.

As you look around, you notice that there are no signs of struggle or violence. The tents and booths are all in order, as if the circus had been packed up and left in an orderly manner.

You start to feel a creeping sense of unease, and realize that something is not quite right. Perhaps you should investigate further and try to find out what happened to your fellow performers.

You could start by searching the circus grounds, looking for any clues or signs of what might have happened. You could also try to find any notes or messages left behind by the others.

Alternatively, you might try to leave the circus and search for help. However, you're not sure where you are or how far away from civilization you might be.

What do you do?

Rukelnikov
You go to Ada's tent, your closest friend, there you find no notes, no signs of struggle, nothing out of the ordinary, except for Ada being missing, you check a couple tents more, the jugglers, the animal tamers, the strongman, no one sems to have left a note, the only strange thing you come to realize is that everyhing is too orderly, what do you do?

CGPT
As I continue to search through the circus, I become increasingly concerned about the disappearance of my fellow performers. I decide to check the circus master's tent to see if I can find any clues or answers.

Once I enter the circus master's tent, I notice that the atmosphere is much different than the other tents. It's much colder and darker. I investigate the area and notice a strange symbol etched into the ground. I can't quite make out what it is, but it looks like it might be some sort of magical seal.

As I continue to search the tent, I suddenly hear a loud thud and a crash outside. I rush out of the tent and see that the circus animals have escaped their pens and are running rampant throughout the camp. I quickly realize that I must find a way to calm the animals down and restore order to the circus before they cause any more chaos or harm.

NOTE: Weirdly enough, I think this is the only time it refered to the troubador as "I"

Rukelnikov
is there any of the animals that's friendly towards me? I go to them first if that's the case

CGPT
As you approach the animal tent, you see that the animals are all gone, except for a small monkey that was hiding in the corner. The monkey seems friendly towards you and chatters excitedly as you approach.

As you pet the monkey, you notice a small piece of paper clutched in its tiny hand. You carefully take the paper from the monkey's grasp and unfold it. On the paper, you find a hastily scrawled message, "Meet me at the old oak tree outside of town. Don't tell anyone."

It seems that someone is trying to get in touch with you. What do you do?

Rukelnikov
I pet the monkey, and give it something to eat, wait a minute or two for it to calm down a bit. Then I pick them up and go towards the old oak tree, but stay about 300 feet away, looking around for potential ambushes or traps

CGPT
As you approach the tree, you carefully scan the surrounding area for any signs of danger. You don't see anything out of the ordinary, but you still feel a sense of unease. As you get closer to the tree, you notice something odd: the tree seems to be pulsating with a strange energy. It's almost as if it's alive.

You also notice that there's a small hole in the base of the tree, just big enough for a person to crawl through. It's too dark to see what's inside, but you can hear faint whispers coming from within. What do you do?

Rukelnikov
I start moving towards the hole, while paying attention to the tree's branches and roots, if it seems like they are trying to strike me, I'll try to evade them and rush towards the hole

CGPT
As you approach the hole, you notice that the ground around it is disturbed and there are signs of something being dragged towards the hole. The monkey on your shoulder becomes agitated and starts to screech.

Suddenly, several goblins jump out from the shadows and attack you. They seem to be the same goblins you encountered earlier in the day. They are armed with crude weapons and are wearing tattered clothing.

Roll for initiative to determine who goes first in combat. You can use your actions to attack, cast spells, or take other actions to defend yourself or try to escape.

Rukelnikov
/roll 20

CGPT
You rolled a 7.

Rukelnikov
so who goes first?

CGPT
As you rolled a 20, you win the initiative and get to go first. (clear disconnect)

Rukelnikov
Hugging the monkey I move away from the goblins and try to negotiate with them, there's no need for bloodshed. If they start advancing towards me I dash away

CGPT
As you move away from the goblins, still holding the monkey, you try to negotiate with them, saying that there's no need for bloodshed. The goblins stop for a moment, looking at you with suspicion, but then one of them steps forward, holding up a crude wooden staff.

"You come to our home, steal from us," the goblin says, his voice filled with anger. "What make you think we not kill you?"

You try to explain that you didn't mean to steal anything, but rather you were looking for your missing friends. The goblin snarls at you, clearly not convinced. Suddenly, he charges forward, swinging his staff at you.

You quickly dodge to the side, narrowly avoiding the blow, and start running towards the hole. The goblins give chase, yelling and brandishing their weapons.

As you approach the hole, you see that it's much deeper than you first thought. You'll need to jump down quite a distance to get to the bottom. You turn to face the goblins, preparing to make the leap.

Rukelnikov
does it look like a fatal fall

CGPT
It's hard to tell from your current vantage point, but it certainly looks like a very long and dangerous fall.

Rukelnikov
I cast sleep on the goblins

CGPT
As you cast the spell, a magical aura emanates from you towards the group of goblins. Some of them seem to be affected by the spell and start to droop their heads, struggling to keep their eyes open. The larger goblin seems to be more resistant, and despite showing signs of drowsiness, he is still standing.

As the goblins start to fall asleep, you hear a rustling sound from the bushes nearby. Suddenly, a band of hobgoblins emerges from the foliage, led by a massive hobgoblin captain. They seem to have been attracted by the commotion and are now looking for a fight.

Rukelnikov
I take advantage of the confusion and try to jump down as carefully as I possibly can

CGPT
As you jump down, you manage to grab hold of the tree trunk, slowing your descent and avoiding a fatal fall. You land on your feet with a slight stumble, but otherwise unscathed. The goblins below are now asleep, and you are free to explore the underground tunnel without their interference.

You find yourself in a narrow, dimly lit passageway, with the sound of rushing water echoing in the distance. The walls are damp and slick with moisture, and the air is heavy with the smell of mildew and decay. As you make your way through the tunnel, you hear the sound of footsteps coming from up ahead.

NOTE: This didn't make much sense to me, I understood the goblins were outside the hole, but now it says they were in the bottom of it.

Rukelnikov
i try to hide somewhere and pay attention to the footsteps

CGPT
As you scan the area, you notice a small bush nearby and decide to hide behind it, crouching low and holding your breath. You listen intently and hear the faint sound of footsteps approaching, but you can't tell how many or from which direction. The footsteps seem to be getting closer and you start to feel a sense of unease. You try to remain as still as possible, hoping to go unnoticed.

Rukelnikov
i do my best to go unnoticed

CGPT
Roll a Dexterity check to see how stealthily you can move and how well you can hide. The higher the roll, the better your chances of avoiding detection.

Rukelnikov
I got a 19

NOTE: I rolled 1d20+5 on my end and just typed the result, cause making it roll didn't seem to work before

CGPT
You manage to blend into the shadows and go unnoticed by the goblin search party. They pass by your hiding spot and continue down the path, leaving you undetected. After a few minutes, you feel it's safe to move again. What would you like to do now? (notice that this time it did interpret the roll)

Rukelnikov
I go towards where the goblins came from

CGPT
As you make your way towards where the goblins came from, you notice that the woods are becoming denser and more overgrown. It's becoming increasingly difficult to move quietly and quickly through the underbrush, and you're forced to slow your pace.

As you move deeper into the woods, you eventually come across a clearing. In the center of the clearing is a large, moss-covered stone altar, surrounded by several large, ominous-looking totems. There are also a few goblins milling about the area, but they don't seem to have noticed you yet.

What do you do?

Rukelnikov
Do i recognize the totems? have i ever heard about practices like this one?

CGPT
As you get closer to the totems, you notice that they seem to be made of bones and are decorated with feathers and other natural materials. The arrangement of the totems and the markings on them suggest that they are being used in some sort of ritual or ceremony. You can't say for sure if you have seen this exact type of totem before, but you have heard stories of goblin tribes using totems in their rituals and ceremonies.

Rukelnikov
does it seem to be a sacrificial altar?

CGPT
It's possible that it could be a sacrificial altar, given the presence of the totems and the dark, eerie feeling of the area. However, it's also possible that the totems have a different purpose or meaning that you are not aware of. Without more information, it's difficult to say for certain.

Rukelnikov
keeping to the shadows I try to find if the people from the circus has ended up here

CGPT
As you move around the clearing, you don't see any signs of the circus folk. However, you do notice that there is a trail leading away from the clearing, heading deeper into the woods. The trail looks well-used, and there are signs of recent foot traffic. It's possible that the circus performers may have been taken this way.

Rukelnikov
I'll try to find a spot to rest for a bit before following that trail, I don't want to be tired if combat erupts

CGPT
You find a concealed spot to rest and catch your breath for a few minutes. You're able to regain some of your energy and you feel more prepared to continue your investigation. As you begin to move again, you notice that the trail left by the goblins leads deeper into the forest. You follow the trail, being careful not to make too much noise or draw attention to yourself. After a while, you come across a clearing where you see the goblins gathered around a large bonfire, dancing and chanting. It looks like some sort of ritual is taking place. You can see some of the circus performers tied up and being held captive. What do you do?

Rukelnikov
I attempt to cast minor illusion to mimic the sound of a troll coming this way, in order to scare the goblins

CGPT
You cast minor illusion and create the sound of a troll's roar, which echoes through the cave. The goblins look up and freeze in fear, their beady eyes darting around as they search for the source of the noise. Some of them grab their weapons and start backing away cautiously, while others look like they're about to bolt.

One of the larger goblins, who seems to be the leader, turns to the others and barks out some orders in their guttural language. They hesitate for a moment, then start scurrying away, deeper into the cave.

You hear their footsteps echoing through the cavern for a few moments, then they fade away. It looks like your illusion worked, and you scared them off for now.

Rukelnikov
I take advantage of the opportunity and start freeing the prisoners, starting by the most combat apt first, for if the goblins return before we leave

CGPT
As you free the prisoners, you find that most of them are too shaken to fight, but a few of the circus performers who were once skilled fighters manage to gather their weapons and stand ready. You also find Ada and several other members of the troupe among the captives.

Just as you finish freeing everyone, you hear the sound of footsteps approaching from outside. The goblins have returned and they are not alone. You see a group of hobgoblins with them, led by a larger hobgoblin who seems to be their leader.

The circus performers stand ready to fight, but they are outnumbered and outmatched. What do you do?

Rukelnikov
I cast bless and draw my rapier, I position myself beside the ones that are combat ready, trying to put ourselves between the goblinoids and the noncombatant circus folk

CGPT
As you cast Bless and draw your rapier, you can see the goblinoids approaching in the distance. The goblinoids, surprised by the sudden appearance of a group of armed fighters, seem hesitant to attack.

With your allies positioned beside you, you manage to create a barrier between the goblinoids and the noncombatant circus folk, giving them a chance to retreat to safety. The goblinoids, outnumbered and outmatched, eventually turn and flee.

As the last of the goblinoids disappear from view, you and the rescued circus folk gather together. Many of them are grateful for your help, and some offer you tokens of appreciation, such as food, clothing, or small trinkets.

With the immediate danger averted, you and the rest of the circus troupe continue your journey, moving forward into the unknown. The sense of camaraderie and shared purpose forged in the heat of battle remains strong, as you and your fellow adventurers continue to face whatever challenges come your way.

NOTE: A couple minutes after this I realized the circous troupe being prisoners didn't add up with the circus being extremely orderly, and there being no signs of struggle, this exchange did have more inconsistencies

Rukelnikov
a couple days after rescuing the circus folk, a strange thought crosses my mind, a bit of fridge logic, how is it that the circus folk was captured without struggle, and everything in the circus seemed orderly?

CGPT
As you think about it more, you begin to realize that it doesn't make sense for the circus folk to have been captured so easily. They are a group of skilled performers, some of whom are trained in combat and self-defense. Additionally, the circus is always bustling with activity and noise, making it difficult for someone to sneak in and capture everyone without being noticed.

You start to suspect that there may have been something or someone behind the scenes, possibly a traitor or an accomplice, who helped the goblinoids capture the circus folk. It could be someone who had a grudge against the troupe or who was working for the goblinoids for personal gain.

As you ponder this, you realize that there may be more to this situation than you originally thought. You feel a sense of unease and decide to investigate further to uncover the truth behind the mysterious circumstances of the circus's capture.

Rukelnikov
I do not make my suspicions known to anyone, but I start paying attentions to people's mood in general, to see if someone is acting strangely, or seems mad that they were saved

CGPT
As you observe the circus folk, you don't notice anything immediately suspicious. Everyone seems to be grateful for their rescue, and there's a general sense of relief and happiness in the air. However, you do notice that some of the performers seem a bit more quiet and withdrawn than usual, and a few of them seem to be avoiding eye contact with you.

As the days pass, you continue to keep an eye on everyone, but you don't notice any obvious signs of deceit or malice. However, there's still a nagging feeling in the back of your mind that something isn't quite right.

Rukelnikov
during these days, is there anyone that I'm reasonably positive that its not a traitor?

CGPT
You can trust Ada, your closest friend in the circus, who you went to check on when you first discovered the circus was deserted. Ada was missing when you found her tent, and you haven't seen her since, but you have a strong sense that she would not betray the circus. Additionally, there are a few other performers who you have known for a long time and have a good rapport with, such as the animal trainers and the acrobats, who you believe you could trust. However, given your recent experiences, you are more cautious than usual and are wary of trusting anyone too easily.

Rukelnikov
Where is Ada?

CGPT
After some inquiries, you discover that Ada had left the circus a few weeks before the strange events occurred. She had received an invitation to perform at a prestigious theater in a nearby city, and she had decided to take the opportunity. She had been excited about it and had promised to keep in touch with the circus, but no one had heard from her since.

NOTE: This doesn't add up, since Ada was amongst the prisoners

Rukelnikov
I ask one of the animal trainers to tell me their version of the events

CGPT
The animal trainer you approach tells you that they were woken up in the middle of the night by a commotion outside. When they went to investigate, they found that everyone had disappeared. They searched around for a while, but didn't find any clues or signs of struggle. That's when they started to get worried and began to wake up the other circus members to organize a search.

The animal trainer admits that they are still in shock about what happened and doesn't have any more information to offer. They express gratitude for your efforts to find and rescue everyone, but they're just as confused and concerned as everyone else.

Rukelnikov
but how were they captured?

CGPT
The animal trainer tells you that they were all asleep when the goblinoids attacked, which was unusual because there are usually guards on watch at night. The trainer says that they woke up to the sounds of the goblins and tried to fight back, but they were quickly overwhelmed. The trainer doesn't remember much after that, but they do remember seeing Ada being taken away by one of the goblins.

Rukelnikov
cool, lets leave it here for now, I may want to continue this adventure later if possible

NOTE: I decided to leave it at that, cause I think pulling from the thread was not gonna lead to it tying the loose ends but creating even more

Basically a simple issue is that chatgpt is literally unable to differentiate the text of the user from its own text (it is all fed at the same level with no data that indicates the fact it is not the same thing), it is why it switched to being a gm at some point, it literally can not know what was its role.
This is related to how chatgpt was trained: it is given blocs of a text database and it must predict the next word, it can seemingly replicate discussions in some measure because it did read lots of discussions however there is no guarantee the ai will fit a role because it is not trying to, it is trying to predict what is next in the text without differentiating your text and its text. (and its only context is the 1000 previous words or something similarly tiny which can ruin its long term memory)
This results in an ai that is bad at GMing or at being a player.

[Segev]

Basically a simple issue is that chatgpt is literally unable to differentiate the text of the user from its own text (it is all fed at the same level with no data that indicates the fact it is not the same thing), it is why it switched to being a gm at some point, it literally can not know what was its role.
This is related to how chatgpt was trained: it is given blocs of a text database and it must predict the next word, it can seemingly replicate discussions in some measure because it did read lots of discussions however there is no guarantee the ai will fit a role because it is not trying to, it is trying to predict what is next in the text without differentiating your text and its text. (and its only context is the 1000 previous words or something similarly tiny which can ruin its long term memory)
This results in an ai that is bad at GMing or at being a player.

What it could be useful for is an interface with a different expert system that needs language interpreted or its own outputs interpreted into language.

Also, as noted many times before (which I say only to acknowledge that I am not being novel, here), it can be quite helpful for on-the-spot NPC descriptions and ideas for dialog. I think, actually, that on-the-spot dialog would be the easiest point to attach to a second expert system. Possibly not even a machine-learning one, just one that heuristically controls some attitude markers that represent the NPC's feelings about a thing. Developing systems to take that extra bit of input and handle medium- and long-term memory of things (via flags and other well-understood gaming technology) that interface with chatGPT or a neural network operating on similar training principles would be a good first step to expanding its utility into a serviceable interface for actual voice commands.

Of course, Alexa and Siri already do a lot of this, but chatGPT is better at the immediate, front-end interpretation and making natural-sounding responses, so they, too, may benefit from the chatGPT technology serving as a further upgrade to their voice interface.

[verbatim]

People offer subscription services for flavor text crafted by human hands. I can 100% see LLM's moving into that territory, possibly even as part of a broader first party subscription service.

[Sorinth]

What it could be useful for is an interface with a different expert system that needs language interpreted or its own outputs interpreted into language.

Also, as noted many times before (which I say only to acknowledge that I am not being novel, here), it can be quite helpful for on-the-spot NPC descriptions and ideas for dialog. I think, actually, that on-the-spot dialog would be the easiest point to attach to a second expert system. Possibly not even a machine-learning one, just one that heuristically controls some attitude markers that represent the NPC's feelings about a thing. Developing systems to take that extra bit of input and handle medium- and long-term memory of things (via flags and other well-understood gaming technology) that interface with chatGPT or a neural network operating on similar training principles would be a good first step to expanding its utility into a serviceable interface for actual voice commands.

Of course, Alexa and Siri already do a lot of this, but chatGPT is better at the immediate, front-end interpretation and making natural-sounding responses, so they, too, may benefit from the chatGPT technology serving as a further upgrade to their voice interface.

I think the big problem with on-the-spot stuff will be usability. There's a pretty big risk that immersion will be lost if the DM has to first type in a few sentences in order to generate said NPC, because ideally as a player you don't want to know when the DM is making stuff up on the spot. Perhaps it could be listening in the whole session and basically prepping anything relevant so that it's immediately at the DMs fingertips. But that's a fundamentally very different model to things like ChatGPT so probably not any time soon. The other problem is I would imagine that a lot of time it's going to generate content that the DM doesn't like/fit, and the more input the DM provides the better the result but has the cost of taking longer.

It's probably better suited for prep-work. For example, you are prepping a dungeon the PCs will go into next session, having it generate detailed room descriptions could be quite useful and save time while still giving the DM the opportunity to curate/refine things.