Swashbuckler Rogue/ Whispers bard

[Hiro Quester]

I have an overall idea for my backup character (or maybe next campaign if needed), but I'm indecisive about some specifics, particularly level progression.

My current character is a warlock/bard, who hits hard, but a little fragile. He's come close to dying a couple of times. And our current trapmeister and locksmith is a relatively fragile artificer, who doesn't stealth all that well, and would prefer not to be scouting.

So the backup character is designed to fit well in the party if my bard/warlock died. The overall idea is a Tabaxi, with a mix of Bard and Rogue. But reversing the normal emphasis. The rogue is a Swashbuckler, all performance and mobilly, solo-dueling opponents with flash and panache. The bard is College of Whispers, specialized in sneaking about, gathering information and stories, infiltration (especially via impersonation). So the bard's social and musical abilities and the rogue's sneaky trap-and lock-disabling skills also complement other side of the mix.

These seem to complement one another very well, and fit a Tabaxi thematically too: collecting information and stories, with acrobatic, sneaky and social skill expertises (and jack of all trades), and decent casting (with the right mix, e.g. Bard 10+/Rogue 6+, better casting than an arcane trickster rogue). Whisper Bard's ability to use Bardic Inspiration for extra psychic damage compensates for lost sneak attack damage, even if it is a limited resource (after bard 5 it refeiils on a short rest, at least). And the swashbuckling Rogue side can help the bard maintain cover as a Swords Bard and Entertainer, keeping their identity as a member of the College of Whispers a secret.

Our party is currently 6th level (close to 7th, I expect). I'm dithering about how the level progression should go.

For a 7th level Bard/Rogue, how would you progress the levels? Perhaps I'd start with Rogue 3, then bard 3, then advance one for ASI, I guess. Probably bard. That brings the basics of each class online.

Then get Bard to 6 for the impersonation ability. Then progress rogue?

Or perhaps a level of Hexblade Warlock would be good, for CHA to attack and damage, medium armor and shield, and access to Eldritch Blast, Booming Blade, Shield, and Hex spells. A 1st level spell slot that refills on a short rest, too.

Opinions about good ways to make this a viable and fun-to-play character would be appreciated.

[Talionis]

I think you need to ask how long will you bring playing this character, ie how many more levels. Also how often do you short rest. If you get to Bard 5 you can recharge your inspirations on short rests. If you short rest often that ability goes up in value. For my table recharging the inspiration would be a high priority.

Where do you want to end up? Rogue is great for a dip, so you may want to do 3-4 Rogue and then go Bard. Bard is a full caster. You’ll be on roughly the same sneak attack progression with Whispers only you’ll only get so many uses per day/short rest.

Past Bard 5 it’s really spell slots and spells known, though and you may be thinking you’d be happy with capping Bard at level 5 or 6 and being happy with third level spells. Bard is the better class.

But until you make it clear where you want to go it’s hard to tell you how to get there.

Hexblade is good especially if you are okay with only 14 Dexterity. That one level dip allows for you to max Charisma. It may be hard to roleplay. It’s also hard to get out of Warlock because level 2 grants invocations, one can be at will disguise self. If you go warlock you won’t need to go Bard because most of the infiltrator spells are on the Warlock list. Warlock smite can do a decent job of analaging the Whisper Bard sneak attack damage.

[Hiro Quester]

Yeah... we short rest enough that Bard 5 seems a high priority early on.

I'm probably looking to end up at Bard 12/Rogue 8 or Bard 12/Rogue7/Hexblade1. (We usually play campaigns all the way to 20th level.)

I would go deeper into hexblade, but I've already done that. I'm playing a warlock5/Bard1 (about to increase bard more next few levels), and if he dies I'd like to try slightly different. But a touch of hexblade for the ability to lean heavily on CHA and stick to 14 dex (with 16 Con) seems beneficial.

[RogueJK]

You'll definitely want Bard 5 ASAP, for both the short rest Bardic Inspiration recharge as well as the 3d6 psychic damage bump. Bard 6 is much less important, since while it's a cool ability, it's very situational and will only come up in play every once in a while, and you can do much of what it entails via stuff like the 1st level Disguise Self spell and Deception checks anyway.

Therefore, I'd shoot for something like Rogue 3 -> Bard 5 -> Rogue 7 initially, and then decide from there if you want more Rogue or more Bard. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are a lot more impactful than Mantle of Whispers, especially if you're reportedly concerned that you current character is fragile and I'm guessing want to avoid that with your backup character.

And another way to address fragility with this backup character is via the Moderately Armored feat. This could get you a +2 boost to your AC from using a Shield (or more if using a magic shield), while also being a DEX half-feat for another +1 AC by rounding up an odd DEX score. That's potentially +3 total AC from one feat.

Dipping a level of Hexblade is another way to gain shield access, and if you want to do that, then I'd take it right off the bat at Level 1 to get you CHA-based attacks and a little bit of magic while you're working through your initial Rogue levels.


Something like this without the Hexblade dip:
Tabaxi Swashbuckler Rogue 3 -> Whispers Bard 5 -> Swashbuckler 7
STR 8
DEX 15+2
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 15+1
ASIs: Moderately Armored/Piercer/Skill Expert for 18 DEX at Bard 4, 18 CHA at Rogue 4, then consider 20 DEX, 20 CHA, and/or Inspiring Leader with some of your subsequent ASIs.


Or if willing to accept the level delay from dipping Hexblade:
Tabaxi Hexblade Warlock 1 -> Swashbuckler Rogue 3 -> Whispers Bard 5 -> Swashbuckler 7
STR 8
DEX 13+1
CON 15
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 15+2
ASIs: Actor/Skill Expert/Fey Touched for 18 CHA at Bard 4, Resilient CON for 16 CON at Rogue 4, then 20 CHA, Inspiring Leader, Lucky, etc.

[Hiro Quester]

Thanks, RogueJK. That is very helpful advice. I'd probably go Rogue3/Warlock1/Bard3 if he started at level 7. after that get Bard to 5 or 6, then rogue to 7, then Bard the rest of the way to 12.

I was thinking that starting Rogue would be preferable to starting with Warlock, though. Esp since I would be starting this character later in the game (level 7+).

Rogue gives 2 extra starting skill proficiencies, and from a longer and more useful list. Warlock's proficiency with Wis and Cha saves might be better than Rogue's Dex and Int saves. But striking two skills from the list below seems to hurt.

I would probably need proficiency in at least:
Tabaxi: Perception, Stealth*
Criminal Background (spy network): Deception*, Stealth History
Rogue: Insight, Investigation*, Persuasion*, Sleight of Hand or Intimidation, (Thieves' Tools*)
Bard: Performance*, (Lute)

* = Expertise. Rogue 7 gets expertise in 4 of those, and Bard 3 gets 2 more expertises.
Eventually Bard 10 gets 2 more (probably Insight and Intimidation), but that's very late game.

[CTurbo]

I would personally start Rogue 5/Bard 2 or Bard 5/Rogue 2 and I'd probably end with a 15/5 split. Just figure out if you want to be more Rogue or more Bard. More Bard is the stronger choice IMO due to spellcasting and Magical Secrets.

A 3/4 or especially 3/1/3 class split is going to make for a pretty weak 7th level character comparably.

If you insist on 1 level of Warlock, I'd still start with 5 levels of Bard or Rogue which would result in a 5/1/1 split at level 7. I'd skip on the 3rd class though especially if you want to be mostly Bard.

[RogueJK]

I was thinking that starting Rogue would be preferable to starting with Warlock, though. Esp since I would be starting this character later in the game (level 7+).

Correct, if starting at Level 7, that would be better.

But if starting at Level 1, Hexblade first would be a better option.

[Hiro Quester]

I'd skip on the 3rd class though especially if you want to be mostly Bard.

Yeah, Bard is the stronger choice, if you want to be a master of the arcane arts. But I'm not aiming for a character that's a competitive caster with a bard.

In my mind, this is like a different way of adding casting and fun thematics to a rogue chassis, with a different focus than arcane trickster.

Arcane Trickster Rogue's Spell progression is a useful benchmark for me, then. AT doesn't get 3rd level spells until 13th level, after all.

So if I want to be a master infiltrator, information gatherer, knower of secrets, with a cover as a swashbuckling, rapier wielding performer, then the casting is support for that, not the character's main schtick.

I'm already delaying bard casting to make way for rogue levels. And the casting base will be focussed primarily on supporting his focus on swashbuckling (stabbing and charming) and sneaking (infiltration, investigation, getting through locks and social obstacles): booming blade, hex, mirror image, disguise self, silent image, charm person, friends, invisibility, etc.).

So it seems worth it, delaying bard casting progression at 3rd or 4th, with 2nd level spells, to add Warlock 1 for some necessary cantrips and useful first level spells (hex, shield), and Charisma-SAD focus for casting, and 3 levels of rogue swashbucklery; then delaying again at Bard 5 or 6/Warlock1/Rogue 3, with 3rd level spells, to add four more levels of Rogue.

That's getting 2nd level spells at 3rd level, and 3rd level spells at 9th level, 4th level at 15, 5th at 17, and 6th at 19.
That's still faster and further than Arcane Trickster's casting progression, which caps at 4th level spells at 17th level.

And in addition to bard casting you are getting magical secrets, and bigger inspiration dice, etc, instead of magical ambush, reliable talent and an ASI. Seems like a fair trade.

It might even be worth it to add a second level of Warlock, for another short-rest-refilling spell slot as well as invocations to enable at will disguise self and at will silent image.

[RogueJK]

Yeah, Bard is the stronger choice, if you want to be a master of the arcane arts. But I'm not aiming for a character that's a competitive caster with a bard.

In my mind, this is like a different way of adding casting and fun thematics to a rogue chassis, with a different focus than arcane trickster.

That's a good way of looking at it. You'll grab a few spells that are useful in combat, but mostly you're picking up out-of-combat utility/infiltration spells to make yourself a better sneak and smooth-talker.


I'm already delaying bard casting to make way for rogue levels. And the casting base will be focussed primarily on supporting his focus on swashbuckling (stabbing and charming) and sneaking (infiltration, investigation, getting through locks and social obstacles): booming blade, hex, mirror image, disguise self, silent image, charm person, friends, invisibility, etc.).

Skip Charm Person and Friends. They should be called "Anger Person" and "Enemies" instead, due to them automatically making the targets hostile and/or letting the target know they've been charmed.

Whereas something like Suggestion does not. Suggestion is more versatile too.

Eventually taking a second level of Warlock for Misty Visions and Mask of Many Faces for at-will illusion and disguise would fit this character concept well, even if it's not 100% optimal from a mechanical standpoint.

[Gignere]

I actually don’t see why you even need the bard levels. I think a Swashbuckler / Hexblade with the right invocations can fit your concept just fine. I agree with another poster you should be taking masks of thousand faces and misty visions. This will allow you to infiltrate and even pretend to be another person.

With hexblade you can grab booming blade so your at will damage isn’t falling too far behind. All you need is potentially 2 maybe 3 levels of warlock to accomplish what you need certainly you can take more warlock levels if you want a more magical feel. However it’s really not necessary.

[CTurbo]

I've long had an idea of a master infiltrator character for this type of campaign(actually a solo campaign idea).

I was thinking 9-11 levels of Assassin Rogue and then 9-11 levels of Hexblade. Disguise Self At-Will is so strong.

I agree you could accomplish this with just 2 of the 3 classes mentioned. Whispers Bard+Hexblade/Bladelock would probably be best.

[Hiro Quester]

I’m choosing bard rather than warlock for two reasons. One is that I’m currently playing a warlock/swords bard.

and the other is mostly for the whispers bard level 6 infiltration ability, where you can take the shadow of a slain enemy, and use it to look like them, and know the kinds of things they would tell a close acquaintance (locations of checkpoints, names of other guards, etc.).

That plus the actor feat to imitate their voice, and mask of many faces to change disguises if thi;gs get hairy, gets you a long way inside the enemy base and back out again, gets you into the king’s bedchamber (posing as his footman), or into the cult temple (posing as an acolyte who knows how to perform the ritual blessings and greetings), etc. for burglary or for spying, it seems a fun and promising ability.