Bag of Holding (proposed) houserules

[PhoenixPhyre]

From a metaphysical and worldbuilding standpoint, the "extradimensional" nature of bags of holding has always annoyed me. Mainly because it's not clear what, exactly, that entails. If you have an item in there, does it count as being in the bag's location for things like locate object? If a creature is in there (or a sentient construct/item that doesn't need to breathe), can it be the target of/sender of sending or scrying without incurring failure for being "on another plane"? Etc. Plus the whole "no nesting otherwise boom" rule makes for some ill-defined situations (cf Rope Trick--does it blow up if you drag a bag of holding inside? Demiplanes?).

The other issue is the sizing. No, I don't want to track volume. But there should be some limit on how big an item you can stuff in.

So instead, I think I'm going to modify them slightly. Most of these aren't really functional changes, just...clarifications. At least as far as I can tell.

1. Bags of holding, portable holes, handy haversacks, and quivers of Ehlona no longer create extradimensional spaces. They merely warp space and mass within the allocated volume. As a result, they do not count as a separate plane for any purpose, and the contents are considered to have moved if the bag did. This makes it a valid target for scrying/locate objects/sending/etc. It does not muffle any "magical signatures" or anything else of that source.

2. When an object listed in 1 is placed inside another such object, the inner one ceases to modulate mass--the entire mass of the contents count against the outer container's limit. This serves to limit the nesting available without requiring the catastrophic consequences.

3. When an object listed in 1 is overloaded or torn, they are physically torn and cease to function. The objects all spill out into the same plane the bag exists in.

4. We're not tracking volume. On the other hand, there are limits on what can be placed in there on two accounts (a) the object must fit through a 2' diameter hole (b) the object cannot be longer than 8' in longest dimension.

5. Sharp objects placed in there without proper padding (sheaths, wrapped in cloth, etc) will tear the bag, but you'll get a warning before putting it in. Your characters understand the limits.

As a related note about mass messing--a similar "mass doesn't count" property applies to polymorph and wild shape. Yes, that means a druid can pick up something really really heavy and then wildshape and walk normally, even if they transform into a mouse. I find those uses amusing and interesting.

Edit: clarified that this is only talking about 4 particular items. Anything else is not affected at all.

[stoutstien]

Eh i go a step further and say they can't hold more bulk or size of objects than would realistically fit but it reduces the bulk/weight down to set amount.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Eh i go a step further and say they can't hold more bulk or size of objects than would realistically fit but it reduces the bulk/weight down to set amount.

I don't mind it holding extra stuff. Seems reasonable to have a Mary Poppins "bigger on the inside" bag. But then I don't really concern myself with logistics much. The limits are mostly there to stop absurd "clean out the dungeon entirely, including the 20' stone statues" cases.

[BRC]

The only downside I see to this is that the "Demiplane" explanation nicely resolves the visceral presentation of the bag of holding in a way that this does not.

As written, reaching into the Bag is like you are reaching into a much larger bag, because the mouth of the bag is the entrance into an extradimensional space. Yeah this has all sorts of problems and extra complexities as you mention, but it's pretty easy to picture in your head. "I reach into the bag, and it is if I am reaching into a much larger bag".


"Warping Space" is a bit less clear as far as that description goes. If I reach into the bag, does it now warp my hand to fit that space? do I feel all the objects within it, but tiny?


You can just say "The bag is bigger on the inside, but not extradimensional. Reaching into it is like reaching into a much larger bag" and it will be fine because magic, but I'd try to make that clear.

[stoutstien]

I don't mind it holding extra stuff. Seems reasonable to have a Mary Poppins "bigger on the inside" bag. But then I don't really concern myself with logistics much. The limits are mostly there to stop absurd "clean out the dungeon entirely, including the 20' stone statues" cases.

I have a sperate item/magic option for that that can shrink items. Idk why that makes more sense in my world but it does.

Storage spaces that act like bags of holding do exist but are very rare and highly controlled by one faction.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The only downside I see to this is that the "Demiplane" explanation nicely resolves the visceral presentation of the bag of holding in a way that this does not.

As written, reaching into the Bag is like you are reaching into a much larger bag, because the mouth of the bag is the entrance into an extradimensional space. Yeah this has all sorts of problems and extra complexities as you mention, but it's pretty easy to picture in your head. "I reach into the bag, and it is if I am reaching into a much larger bag".


"Warping Space" is a bit less clear as far as that description goes. If I reach into the bag, does it now warp my hand to fit that space? do I feel all the objects within it, but tiny?


You can just say "The bag is bigger on the inside, but not extradimensional. Reaching into it is like reaching into a much larger bag" and it will be fine because magic, but I'd try to make that clear.

As a note, "warping space" is just "it's bigger on the inside but not extradimensional". It's how you get bigger on the inside.

But reaching into a bag of holding can't just be "reaching into a bigger space", because it always only costs an action to get the item you're looking for[1]. So it has to do some weirdness around rearranging the items.

I could definitely see different items like a "phantom walk-in-closet", where it really is just a bigger room. But you have to go in and find the item manually. Heck, demiplane is basically exactly that when used as a storage space.

[1] which raises philosophical concerns--can you retrieve an item from a bag of holding if you don't know it was in there (without dumping everything out)? How does the bag know what you're looking for? Etc. Magic is weird.


I have a sperate item/magic option for that that can shrink items. Idk why that makes more sense in my world but it does.


I actually gave a party member an item of "shrink and statue-ify" for his pet/mount[2], because fitting a large-sized creature indoors is kinda a pain. But it also turned it immobile. Kinda like a reversed version of the various Figurines of Wondrous Power--you temporarily turn the real critter into a statue for portability. At the cost of not having it out if you suddenly need it.

[2] homebrew dragon knight class, got a pet kinda-dragon as a major class feature. Class needs some more work before being ready to use outside of playtesting.

[BRC]

As a note, "warping space" is just "it's bigger on the inside but not extradimensional". It's how you get bigger on the inside.

But reaching into a bag of holding can't just be "reaching into a bigger space", because it always only costs an action to get the item you're looking for[1]. So it has to do some weirdness around rearranging the items.

I could definitely see different items like a "phantom walk-in-closet", where it really is just a bigger room. But you have to go in and find the item manually. Heck, demiplane is basically exactly that when used as a storage space.

[1] which raises philosophical concerns--can you retrieve an item from a bag of holding if you don't know it was in there (without dumping everything out)? How does the bag know what you're looking for? Etc. Magic is weird.

My understanding of Bag of Holding 1.0 is that the "Full action to retrieve" is just a simplified way of saying "You spend your turn searching around in the bag until you find what you want" without dealing with details like some items being within easy reach of the mouth, or how exactly a standard issue human arm is capable of reaching any given object in a packed space up to 4 feet deep without digging in there and potentially pulling stuff out of the way. It doesn't make a ton of sense if you think about it, but that's the standard I'm setting for your bag.

The Handy Haversack explicitly lets you think about the item you are grabbing so you can find it quickly. It's possible a similar, but slower effect in in play.

[stoutstien]

I actually gave a party member an item of "shrink and statue-ify" for his pet/mount[2], because fitting a large-sized creature indoors is kinda a pain. But it also turned it immobile. Kinda like a reversed version of the various Figurines of Wondrous Power--you temporarily turn the real critter into a statue for portability. At the cost of not having it out if you suddenly need it.

[2] homebrew dragon knight class, got a pet kinda-dragon as a major class feature. Class needs some more work before being ready to use outside of playtesting.

Pretty close to what I use. It just flows better in my mind. You can carry a lot of things to an fro (mine is runic magic that shrink stuff into miniatures) but for most things it means it not readily available and sometimes the process of returning stuff to normal size has a cost/ limited duration.

[PhoenixPhyre]

My understanding of Bag of Holding 1.0 is that the "Full action to retrieve" is just a simplified way of saying "You spend your turn searching around in the bag until you find what you want" without dealing with details like some items being within easy reach of the mouth, or how exactly a standard issue human arm is capable of reaching any given object in a packed space up to 4 feet deep without digging in there and potentially pulling stuff out of the way. It doesn't make a ton of sense if you think about it, but that's the standard I'm setting for your bag.

The Handy Haversack explicitly lets you think about the item you are grabbing so you can find it quickly. It's possible a similar, but slower effect in in play.

Except that the actual insides of the bag of holding 1.0 can be 64 cubic feet. So the interior isn't limited to 4' deep (otherwise it wouldn't be bigger on the inside at all, since 2' diameter x 4' deep is the exterior size of the bag, giving an internal volume of ~12.6 cubic feet). So you have to worry about digging through potentially dozens of feet (if you only put long 1' cube objects in there, you could have something like 64' deep by 1' square. Or 1' deep, 1' wide, and 64' long. Or any other weird packing fraction. In pathological cases, you could even get into states where sticking your hand in and pulling one object past another means that the volume required is beyond its limits--a "write only" bag of holding.

Yes, I'm a nerd and worry about things like this. Much easier to say that space inside just isn't normal and it magically rearranges.

[Sigreid]

Perhaps I'm too mean, but if I were going to muck with it, I'd make over stuffing a bag of holding turn it into a bag of devouring. Grats! All your stuff was just eaten!

[Keravath]

As a note, "warping space" is just "it's bigger on the inside but not extradimensional". It's how you get bigger on the inside.

But reaching into a bag of holding can't just be "reaching into a bigger space", because it always only costs an action to get the item you're looking for[1]. So it has to do some weirdness around rearranging the items.

I could definitely see different items like a "phantom walk-in-closet", where it really is just a bigger room. But you have to go in and find the item manually. Heck, demiplane is basically exactly that when used as a storage space.

[1] which raises philosophical concerns--can you retrieve an item from a bag of holding if you don't know it was in there (without dumping everything out)? How does the bag know what you're looking for? Etc. Magic is weird.



I actually gave a party member an item of "shrink and statue-ify" for his pet/mount[2], because fitting a large-sized creature indoors is kinda a pain. But it also turned it immobile. Kinda like a reversed version of the various Figurines of Wondrous Power--you temporarily turn the real critter into a statue for portability. At the cost of not having it out if you suddenly need it.

[2] homebrew dragon knight class, got a pet kinda-dragon as a major class feature. Class needs some more work before being ready to use outside of playtesting.

I think "warping" space is as good an explanation as an extra dimensional space and is pretty much just as easy to picture. It is a bag that has a lot more space on the inside than the outside. It doesn't require a "physics" explanation for the magic.

Also, it takes an action to retrieve an item since that is how long it takes the bag to produce it. In my opinion, the explanation, if one is needed, is that it is a part of the magic of the bag that it returns whatever you are looking for at the cost of an action. Considering how much stuff a bag of holding can hold, there is no way that you could actually find whatever you were looking for in 6 seconds unless the bag itself was retrieving it for you.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think "warping" space is as good an explanation as an extra dimensional space and is pretty much just as easy to picture. It is a bag that has a lot more space on the inside than the outside. It doesn't require a "physics" explanation for the magic.

Also, it takes an action to retrieve an item since that is how long it takes the bag to produce it. In my opinion, the explanation, if one is needed, is that it is a part of the magic of the bag that it returns whatever you are looking for at the cost of an action. Considering how much stuff a bag of holding can hold, there is no way that you could actually find whatever you were looking for in 6 seconds unless the bag itself was retrieving it for you.

The reason I'm trying to avoid the term "extradimensional" is that it's used for a variety of different things that all behave in different ways. For example, you have demiplanes, which have no physical relationship. You can open a portal to a (fixed) demiplane from any number of locations. So it's not "bigger on the inside"...because there is no inside or outside. Or rope trick, which acts similarly. Portable holes are in a nebulous middle region. Extradimensional also gets confused with extra-planar, which implicates a lot of other things. So specifying that it's just warped parts of this space (space as painted by MC Escher), not some planar boundary.

As to the action cost, yeah. The bag's magic has to be doing something there more than just presenting a portal to a larger space. Which is one reason why a Bag of Holding behaves different than a demiplane--if you reach through a demiplane-portal's area, it doesn't shove something appropriate into your hand.

I'm not particularly trying to change the behavior, simply to establish clear ideas around its limits and behaviors. This is actually relevant to one of my campaigns because the party has shoved an item that has been established to be able to be tracked by its actual owner into a bag of holding on the (mistaken) assumption that it would cut off contact with the owner. In this particular case, I don't plan on exploiting that particular fact (the enemy has a great way to track them even without that), but it made me realize that I'd never been clear as to how these things actually behaved.

[Pex]

You gave Chainlock Genie Warlocks a major buff. A Genie Warlock uses a Ring as his gift. At 10th level party enters the Ring. Warlock's familiar (imp, sprite) wears the ring and becomes invisible. With perfect communication with the warlock, the familiar can now transport the entire party anywhere, invisibly. The warlock can do this for himself only at 3rd level. The warlock is also able to transport objects he can carry into and out of the Ring.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You gave Chainlock Genie Warlocks a major buff. A Genie Warlock uses a Ring as his gift. At 10th level party enters the Ring. Warlock's familiar (imp, sprite) wears the ring and becomes invisible. With perfect communication with the warlock, the familiar can now transport the entire party anywhere, invisibly. The warlock can do this for himself only at 3rd level. The warlock is also able to transport objects he can carry into and out of the Ring.

Not sure how this follows? Nothing I said affects the Genie warlock gift. That's not a bag of holding or comparable item, that's more like a demiplane. You don't enter it via a physical opening (especially in the case of a ring) and it's a living space that follows its own rules (including not running out of air, etc).

This change/clarification would only directly affect bags of holding, handy haversacks, quivers of ehlona, and portable holes. At least directly.

[sithlordnergal]

I feel like the regular Bag of Holding kind of handles your griefs on its own...Given that items are expelled into the Astral Plane when the bag is destroyed, and if you toss it into a Portable Hole or similar items it makes a gate to the Astral Plane, I think we can safely say anything inside of it is sent to a Demiplane. Which means we follow follow planar rules for any spells that we're trying to use to interact with objects/creatures within the bag. So unless you'd allow Locate Object to lead you to an item on a separate plane of existence, it won't work. Same holds true with Scrying and Sending, if there's a chance of failure then roll it.


As for the nesting rules, I feel like we can apply some strict RAW here. The bag itself states it only goes boom if you place a "bag of holding inside an extra-dimensional space created by a Heward’s Handy Haversack, Portable Hole, or similar item..." It specifically calls out items that create those kinds of spaces, but not spells, despite Magnificent Mansion being in the PHB and creating a similar, if a bit larger, extra-dimensional space. Therefore, spells like Rope Trick or Magnificat Mansion should be fine since they aren't items. You might be able to make an argument that using Scrolls, Wands, Rods, Ect. to cast those spells could cause a boom if you entered with a Bag of Holding. Though...I feel like they still don't interact with each other since the items are simply casting a spell, and the spell is what's making the Demiplane/extra-dimensional space.


Volume kind of takes care of itself due to the weight limit. I know we somewhat recently had a thread about the volume limit, but as that thread pointed out, you'll surpass the weight limit long before you hit that volume limit unless you're stuffing it with really weird things. As such, we can kind of ignore volume until they try something like carrying 500lbs of Helium.


Finally, last but not least, the bag sort of deals with size limitations on its own. Obviously you're limited by the 46 cu. ft. and 500lbs, but you're also limited by the bag's outer dimensions. Specifically the fact the bag only has a 2ft diameter opening. If what you're trying to fit into the bag is wider that 2ft, you just can't fit it inside of the bag.

---

That said, your changes are pretty reasonable. Heck, I feel like it makes the bag a bit stronger since you won't lose your stuff in the astral plane when the bag ruptures.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't mind it holding extra stuff. Seems reasonable to have a Mary Poppins "bigger on the inside" bag. But then I don't really concern myself with logistics much. The limits are mostly there to stop absurd "clean out the dungeon entirely, including the 20' stone statues" cases. I agree with the intent.

Except that the actual insides of the bag of holding 1.0 can be 64 cubic feet. It can even be a sphere, or oblate sphere, with a 2' diameter opening on top. 64 cubic feet need not be constrained to solid cubes, etc.

Much easier to say that space inside just isn't normal and it magically rearranges. Yes.

Perhaps I'm too mean, but if I were going to muck with it, I'd make over stuffing a bag of holding turn it into a bag of devouring. Grats! All your stuff was just eaten! But that leads to shennanigans (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/164857/22566), since you can have that rarer bag eat enemies if you polymorph them into a rat ...

This is actually relevant to one of my campaigns because the party has shoved an item that has been established to be able to be tracked by its actual owner into a bag of holding on the (mistaken) assumption that it would cut off contact with the owner. In this particular case, I don't plan on exploiting that particular fact (the enemy has a great way to track them even without that), but it made me realize that I'd never been clear as to how these things actually behaved. Well considered, but I for one like the shenanigans aspect of dropping a bag of holding into another one, with a long pole or mage hand, and sending the enemy to the astral plane... :smallbiggrin:

I feel like the regular Bag of Holding kind of handles your griefs on its own. {snip}
It specifically calls out items that create those kinds of spaces, but not spells, despite Magnificent Mansion being in the PHB and creating a similar, if a bit larger, extra-dimensional space. Therefore, spells like Rope Trick or Magnificat Mansion should be fine since they aren't items. You might be able to make an argument that using Scrolls, Wands, Rods, Ect. to cast those spells could cause a boom if you entered with a Bag of Holding. Though...I feel like they still don't interact with each other since the items are simply casting a spell, and the spell is what's making the Demiplane/extra-dimensional space. Concur.

[PhoenixPhyre]

A Bag of Holding can't just be a demiplane--it has to be something extra (due to the quick retrieval aspect and the rupturable walls aspect). Demiplanes are actual volumes of space that just don't happen to be located where they appear to be. They have fixed boundaries and shapes, fixed "natures", and the boundaries are impermeable. Once you're inside, you're inside and can act normally, including interacting with material. They don't have mass limits and their volume limits are set by their basic (fixed) shape.

Bags of Holding don't have those properties. Their space is flexible, their walls are rupturable (from either side), they have strange interactions with other such items, etc. It's also quite improbable that all the real demiplane spells have limited durations (either for the portals or for the spell itself) and are much higher level, yet Bags of Holding are Uncommon and have permanent portals.

They also don't specify how they interact with things like sending or locate object. Which is the real concern here--if they're in another plane that just has a fixed "portal", that interacts with a bunch of other things in one way. If they're just non-normal space (cue the jokes "I heard you like space..."), they don't interact at all. Personally, I think the latter is much more interesting--it prevents the easy "hide the 'hot' stolen object in a bag of holding and no one can ever find it" route. It should take more than an Uncommon object to unfailingly block location and tracking devices/spells.

[Pex]

Not sure how this follows? Nothing I said affects the Genie warlock gift. That's not a bag of holding or comparable item, that's more like a demiplane. You don't enter it via a physical opening (especially in the case of a ring) and it's a living space that follows its own rules (including not running out of air, etc).

This change/clarification would only directly affect bags of holding, handy haversacks, quivers of ehlona, and portable holes. At least directly.

Bottled Respite. As an action, you can magically vanish and enter your vessel, which remains in the space you left. The interior of the vessel is an extradimensional space in the shape of a 20-foot-radius cylinder, 20 feet high, and resembles your vessel. The interior is appointed with cushions and low tables and is a comfortable temperature. While inside, you can hear the area around your vessel as if you were in its space. You can remain inside the vessel up to a number of hours equal to twice your proficiency bonus. You exit the vessel early if you use a bonus action to leave, if you die, or if the vessel is destroyed. When you exit the vessel, you appear in the unoccupied space closest to it. Any objects left in the vessel remain there until carried out, and if the vessel is destroyed, every object stored there harmlessly appears in the unoccupied spaces closest to the vessel’s former space. Once you enter the vessel, you can’t enter again until you finish a long rest.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Bottled Respite. As an action, you can magically vanish and enter your vessel, which remains in the space you left. The interior of the vessel is an extradimensional space in the shape of a 20-foot-radius cylinder, 20 feet high, and resembles your vessel. The interior is appointed with cushions and low tables and is a comfortable temperature. While inside, you can hear the area around your vessel as if you were in its space. You can remain inside the vessel up to a number of hours equal to twice your proficiency bonus. You exit the vessel early if you use a bonus action to leave, if you die, or if the vessel is destroyed. When you exit the vessel, you appear in the unoccupied space closest to it. Any objects left in the vessel remain there until carried out, and if the vessel is destroyed, every object stored there harmlessly appears in the unoccupied spaces closest to the vessel’s former space. Once you enter the vessel, you can’t enter again until you finish a long rest.

Right. But I'm not redefining extradimensional space. I'm saying that bags of holding (and similar items) are no longer extradimensional spaces and instead have certain properties.

Because conceptually, the demiplane concept and the bag of holding "container but bigger on the inside" concept are different. So making them share a tag produces oddities.

[KorvinStarmast]

They also don't specify how they interact with things like sending or locate object. Which is the real concern here--if they're in another plane that just has a fixed "portal", that interacts with a bunch of other things in one way. If they're just non-normal space (cue the jokes "I heard you like space..."), they don't interact at all. Personally, I think the latter is much more interesting--it prevents the easy "hide the 'hot' stolen object in a bag of holding and no one can ever find it" route. It should take more than an Uncommon object to unfailingly block location and tracking devices/spells. That's a fair ruling to make, world building wise.

Bottled Respite. As an action, you can magically vanish and enter your vessel, which remains in the space you left. The interior of the vessel is an extradimensional space in the shape of a 20-foot-radius cylinder, 20 feet high, and resembles your vessel. The interior is appointed with cushions and low tables and is a comfortable temperature. While inside, you can hear the area around your vessel as if you were in its space. You can remain inside the vessel up to a number of hours equal to twice your proficiency bonus. You exit the vessel early if you use a bonus action to leave, if you die, or if the vessel is destroyed. When you exit the vessel, you appear in the unoccupied space closest to it. Any objects left in the vessel remain there until carried out, and if the vessel is destroyed, every object stored there harmlessly appears in the unoccupied spaces closest to the vessel’s former space. Once you enter the vessel, you can’t enter again until you finish a long rest. Genie-Lock with back of holding creates disaster. More fun than a wild magic sorcerer. :smallbiggrin:

[Sigreid]

Probably a mistake that they defined it anyway. Could have just stated that it's bigger on the inside than outside and does not respond well to jlbeing put in other things bigger on the inside than outside and left it at that.

[Pex]

Right. But I'm not redefining extradimensional space. I'm saying that bags of holding (and similar items) are no longer extradimensional spaces and instead have certain properties.

Because conceptually, the demiplane concept and the bag of holding "container but bigger on the inside" concept are different. So making them share a tag produces oddities.

That's the point.

Since the Genie's Vessel is an object that has an extradimensional space, it is a "similar item" to a bag of holding. It doesn't matter you're now redefining what an extradimensional space is, getting rid of it, or whatever words you want to say to describe what you're doing. The Vessel is a "similar item" to a bag of holding and thus subject to whatever new rules you give them. Since you allow communication because it's not another plane you get the invisible warlock familiar transportation service.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That's the point.

Since the Genie's Vessel is an object that has an extradimensional space, it is a "similar item" to a bag of holding. It doesn't matter you're now redefining what an extradimensional space is, getting rid of it, or whatever words you want to say to describe what you're doing. The Vessel is a "similar item" to a bag of holding and thus subject to whatever new rules you give them. Since you allow communication because it's not another plane you get the invisible warlock familiar transportation service.

Uh...no. No it's not. Am I not communicating well?

Specifically, my change would strip the idea that bags of holding have anything to do with extradimensional spaces. All other changes only apply to the specific items mentioned. If anything, it breaks the idea that they're similar, because that idea causes problems! That's the entire point of the change, to separate

* bags of holding, portable holes, handy haversacks, and quivers of Ehlona, which no longer reference "extradimensional space" and instead have their own definition of their (separate) effects
* from every single other spell, effect, or item that happens to use the term "extradimensional space". Those still function exactly the same.

The changes are scoped entirely and exclusively to those particular listed items. Nothing else is affected.

[Pex]

Uh...no. No it's not. Am I not communicating well?

Specifically, my change would strip the idea that bags of holding have anything to do with extradimensional spaces. All other changes only apply to the specific items mentioned. If anything, it breaks the idea that they're similar, because that idea causes problems! That's the entire point of the change, to separate

* bags of holding, portable holes, handy haversacks, and quivers of Ehlona, which no longer reference "extradimensional space" and instead have their own definition of their (separate) effects
* from every single other spell, effect, or item that happens to use the term "extradimensional space". Those still function exactly the same.

The changes are scoped entirely and exclusively to those particular listed items. Nothing else is affected.

You have edited your post. That is not what you wrote upon first time posting of which I responded. After my posting you edited your OP to reflect it only applies to specific items. By your original post my point stands.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You have edited your post. That is not what you wrote upon first time posting of which I responded. After my posting you edited your OP to reflect it only applies to specific items. By your original post my point stands.

That was my meaning all along. As I've repeatedly said. You read "and similar items" way more broadly than I intended, so I edited to be clear of the scope. Personally, I wouldn't call a genie warlock's Vessel a "similar item" to a bag of holding. For one thing, it's not an item in the same context (being a class feature, not a magic item you could find in a treasure hoard). Nor is it a container, per se (the ring, especially). And it doesn't fit the rest of the context of the post at all. The only similarity is that it uses "extradimensional space". Which the whole point of the post was that that term was too overloaded to even plausibly indicate similarity.

[Greywander]

From a metaphysical and worldbuilding standpoint, the "extradimensional" nature of bags of holding has always annoyed me. Mainly because it's not clear what, exactly, that entails. If you have an item in there, does it count as being in the bag's location for things like locate object? If a creature is in there (or a sentient construct/item that doesn't need to breathe), can it be the target of/sender of sending or scrying without incurring failure for being "on another plane"? Etc. Plus the whole "no nesting otherwise boom" rule makes for some ill-defined situations (cf Rope Trick--does it blow up if you drag a bag of holding inside? Demiplanes?).
Not sure where I heard this, but my understanding is that Bags of Holding create a bubble in the Astral Plane and store everything there. The reason putting a Bag of Holding into another Bag of Holding reacts the way it does is that creating another astral bubble inside an existing bubble causes them both to burst. As far as I'm aware, the Bag of Holding, Portable Hole, and Handy Haversack are the only extradimensional spaces that work this way. Bringing a Bag of Holding into a Rope Trick, Demiplane, or Genielock vessel does not cause a reaction, because these extradimensional spaces aren't creating a bubble in the Astral Plane.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Not sure where I heard this, but my understanding is that Bags of Holding create a bubble in the Astral Plane and store everything there. The reason putting a Bag of Holding into another Bag of Holding reacts the way it does is that creating another astral bubble inside an existing bubble causes them both to burst. As far as I'm aware, the Bag of Holding, Portable Hole, and Handy Haversack are the only extradimensional spaces that work this way. Bringing a Bag of Holding into a Rope Trick, Demiplane, or Genielock vessel does not cause a reaction, because these extradimensional spaces aren't creating a bubble in the Astral Plane.

Except...nowhere else does it say that's what happens. There's no indication except tradition that those (and only those) items should function that way...but not the rest of the things that also say they create extradimensional spaces. Nor does it explain the whole "burstable" thing--if you tear the physical bag, the EDS pops as well. Which indicates that the boundaries are the same (or tied together).

So you end up with two, conflicting, differently-acting meanings of the same word without any rhyme or reason as to why some behave one way and some behave the other. Which is exactly what annoys me and prompted the post.

[Greywander]

Except...nowhere else does it say that's what happens.
Yeah, 5e really skimps on the lore. I can only assume this came from an older edition, but not sure which one.


There's no indication except tradition that those (and only those) items should function that way...but not the rest of the things that also say they create extradimensional spaces.
To be fair, it does call out those three items specifically, but then muddles it up with "or similar items". It's not inaccurate, but it doesn't explain what to look for in order to judge if something is "similar" to a Bag of Holding.


Nor does it explain the whole "burstable" thing--if you tear the physical bag, the EDS pops as well. Which indicates that the boundaries are the same (or tied together).
Makes sense, though. The bag's interior is on the Astral Plane, and the exterior is the physical bag. Ripping the bag also rips the bubble, the same way tearing the outside of any bag would also tear the inside.


So you end up with two, conflicting, differently-acting meanings of the same word without any rhyme or reason as to why some behave one way and some behave the other. Which is exactly what annoys me and prompted the post.
Are you still talking about Bags of Holding, or just 5e in general?

Part of the process of streamlining the rules meant offloading some of the load onto the players. Rather than plainly spelling out every possible iteration (and eating up a lot of page space), they expect people to use common sense to adjudicate when a specific situation should or shouldn't be handled differently. And it actually works pretty well for the most part. But there are more than a few cases where I wish they'd been more specific.

[Pex]

That was my meaning all along. As I've repeatedly said. You read "and similar items" way more broadly than I intended, so I edited to be clear of the scope. Personally, I wouldn't call a genie warlock's Vessel a "similar item" to a bag of holding. For one thing, it's not an item in the same context (being a class feature, not a magic item you could find in a treasure hoard). Nor is it a container, per se (the ring, especially). And it doesn't fit the rest of the context of the post at all. The only similarity is that it uses "extradimensional space". Which the whole point of the post was that that term was too overloaded to even plausibly indicate similarity.

Fine, but acknowledge "and similar items" lead to things you didn't intend. It lead me to think of the Genie's Vessel. It was a logical extrapolation of what you presented, not Outrageously Wrong How Dare I. Now that you declare it's for specific items the problem is resolved, but I was not insulting intelligence for bringing up the Genie's Vessel upon first read through. You could have said, "Oh, I didn't intend to include that. I'll fix the wording." No, you were offended I brought it up and chastised me.

[Chronos]

Quoth PhoenixPhyre:

Except...nowhere else does it say that's what happens. There's no indication except tradition that those (and only those) items should function that way...but not the rest of the things that also say they create extradimensional spaces.
And in fact, tradition does say that all of those other things function that way. In 2nd edition, nesting any two extradimensional spaces, including Rope Trick and the like, caused disaster. In 3rd edition, the designers included a note in Rope Trick warning that it was dangerous, but forgot that they never actually included Rope Trick in the rules for that, leading to confusion when some players (with experience with the previous edition) assuming that a Bag of Holding in a Rope Trick would explode, and other players (without that experience) going by the 3rd edition rules and assuming nothing would happen.