OneD&D UA - THE DRUID AND PALADIN

[Oramac]

Welp, here it is! I haven't really looked through it too much yet. Just getting the links up for everyone at this point.

DnD Page (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/one-dnd/druid-paladin)

PDF Direct Link (https://media.dndbeyond.com/compendium-images/one-dnd/druid-paladin/PXoa3UgywnZbwc9U/UA-2023-DruidandPaladin.pdf?icid_source=house-ads&icid_medium=crosspromo&icid_campaign=playtest4)

Paladin Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOW5YjVqk8U)

Druid Video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPO2oCnmPPA)

[Mastikator]

YES DRUID WILDSHAPE HAS STAT BLOCK INSTEAD OF USING ANIMALS FROM THE MM! This is everything that I wanted!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not 100% happy about the details of the implementation. But I am 100% happy about this move. This is exactly what kind of feature I wanted it to be!

[Dienekes]

YES DRUID WILDSHAPE HAS STAT BLOCK INSTEAD OF USING ANIMALS FROM THE MM! This is everything that I wanted!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not 100% happy about the details of the implementation. But I am 100% happy about this move. This is exactly what kind of feature I wanted it to be!

Huh? Really?

I find it a little dull. You're not a wolf or a spider or anything anymore. You're just kind of a generic blob.

[Mastikator]

Huh? Really?

I find it a little dull. You're not a wolf or a spider or anything anymore. You're just kind of a generic blob.

You choose the shape of the beast you transform into.

I think added options for wild shape could be nice, which is why I'm not 100% on board with the details. Things like bite attacks that deal poison damage, for example, could be used to emulate a giant spider without needing to look into the monster manual and playing "mother may I" with the DM.

[Lavaeolus]

Still browsing through, one interesting note: Smite doesn't seem limited to melee attacks.

Immediately after you hit a target with an attack roll using a weapon or an Unarmed Strike, you can expend one Spell Slot to deal Radiant damage to the target.

Similarly, the Paladin isn't limited to a specific set of Fighting Styles and Improved Divine Smite has been replaced with a similar functioning Radiant Strikes -- with the important difference of triggering "when you hit a target with an attack roll using a Simple or Martial weapon".

Now, you're still a Paladin with Lay on Hands and auras and all that jazz. But that does open a Paladin to using bows and fisticuffs more (albeit the latter will go without Radiant Strikes).

Otherwise, you now automatically get access to Find Steed as a class feature. You can cast it once without using a spell slot, so going into combat astride your faithful horse is a bit more easy to lean into.

[Unoriginal]

Can't read right now (and not sure If I'll want to when I can), but here's some predictions:

-Paladin's Oath tennets are heavily toned down or plain gone.

-Druids are able to wear metal armor if they want to.

- Strengthening of the concept that Smite and Smite-related things are not working with unarmed attacks.

-Strengthening that the Druid's animal form attacks are not unarmed attacks.

[jas61292]

Very happy overall. I do wish less features on the druid base were dedicated to wild shape, but what is there I like very much. I just hope it doesn't force them to overstuff subclasses that want to use Channel Nature for something else. Additionally, circle of the moon doesn't really seem to do enough to but the wild shape for combat. I love that they got rid of wild shape being a massive pool of temp HP, but I feel like moon should have either gotten back some durability bonus, or increased offense by more.

Paladin, on the other hand, I have no complaints about at all, at least at first glance. Massive nerf to their nova (particularly for multiclass), while making the other aspects of the class feel more notable. I'm still not a fan of Aura of Protection, unless they revamp save scaling at its base, but at least it didn't change for the worse, and it feels less bad when other aspects of the class were toned town. Also, gotta say, I love the idea of each subclass getting their own unique smite rider. Hope they keep that.

[Dienekes]

You choose the shape of the beast you transform into.

You can say you look like a spider all you want, but if you don't have anything to do with webs or wall climbing or poison or anything, you aren't really a spider. Or you're one of those very specific ones that few people think of when you say spider.



I think added options for wild shape could be nice, which is why I'm not 100% on board with the details. Things like bite attacks that deal poison damage, for example, could be used to emulate a giant spider without needing to look into the monster manual and playing "mother may I" with the DM.


Fair enough. Personally the stat blocks didn't really bother me all that much. I'd rather just get a list of appropriate shapes you are guaranteed to turn into. Or if the versatility of the ability is too much, say you can pick one from a list and that's the only animal you can turn into possibly getting more as you level up. Most the animal transforming figures I know from fantasy and legends tended to stay pretty neatly into only 1 to 5 forms anyway. And doing that could let you actually keep the unique abilities that creatures have that fit the flavor.

[GooeyChewie]

You choose the shape of the beast you transform into.

I think added options for wild shape could be nice, which is why I'm not 100% on board with the details. Things like bite attacks that deal poison damage, for example, could be used to emulate a giant spider without needing to look into the monster manual and playing "mother may I" with the DM.

Sure, you get to choose the shape. But the shape is utterly meaningless. One of the coolest things about Druids in current 5e is that a creative player can choose from a wide array of creatures to get various benefits. This single-stat-block concept takes away a lot of Wild Shape's flexibility.

[Amnestic]

I'm a bit unclear as to what a Magic action is and how it differs from just an...action.



-Paladin's Oath tennets are heavily toned down or plain gone.

Only Devotion is printed and it (along with the 'Breaking your oath' sections appear to be verbatim copied from 5e.


-Druids are able to wear metal armor if they want to.

They don't get medium armour anymore, just light+shields. There isn't, however, any mention of metal armour forbiddance in there that I can see.

[Segev]

YES DRUID WILDSHAPE HAS STAT BLOCK INSTEAD OF USING ANIMALS FROM THE MM! This is everything that I wanted!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not 100% happy about the details of the implementation. But I am 100% happy about this move. This is exactly what kind of feature I wanted it to be!

I'm the exact opposite: I loathe this move and liked the way it was done before much better. I want to actually turn into interesting creatures. I like the idea that turning into a spider is different than turning into a giant wolf spider is different than turning into a mastiff is different than turning into a wolf is different than turning into a snake.

[Mastikator]

Sure, you get to choose the shape. But the shape is utterly meaningless. One of the coolest things about Druids in current 5e is that a creative player can choose from a wide array of creatures to get various benefits. This single-stat-block concept takes away a lot of Wild Shape's flexibility.

And a less than expert player is doomed because they didn't spend hours perusing the monster manual. So either they have to look it up during combat (aka kill the flow of the game) or never use the ability. I think that's one of the main reason druids are so seldom played.

A class feature that is so complicated that a newbie can't possibly use it is not a well designed feature.

And like I said. I also want more wild shape options like poison bites/sting, pounce, poison spray, grapple-bites, charge, ranged grapple attacks like shooting web or sticky mucus. And non-combat options like improved smell/hearing/seeing, camouflage. With that you could emulate the style of any animal without playing mother may I with the DM about delving into the monster manual.

[Chaos Jackal]

I'm a bit unclear as to what a Magic action is and how it differs from just an...action.

The Magic Action is explained in the later pages of the document.

"When you take the Magic action, you magic something by casting a spell that has a casting time of an action or by using a feature or Magic Item that requires a Magic action to be activated. If you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 minute or longer, you must take the Magic action on each turn of that casting, and you must maintain Concentration while you do so. If your Concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don’t expend a Spell Slot."

So at the very least it denotes concentration for some cases. Hopefully it will also help in the edition-long issue of determining whether something is magical effect or not.

[animorte]

YES DRUID WILDSHAPE HAS STAT BLOCK INSTEAD OF USING ANIMALS FROM THE MM! This is everything that I wanted!!!!!!!!!!

I'm the exact opposite: I loathe this move and liked the way it was done before much better. I want to actually turn into interesting creatures.
I'm in between the two. I like the wide variety of options, but I shouldn't need an additional book just to have the stat block for the class' primary feature.

[Trask]

I'm a bit unclear as to what a Magic action is and how it differs from just an...action.

Maybe when we see Counterspell it will specify "magic action" rather than "casts a spell".

[Dienekes]

And a less than expert player is doomed because they didn't spend hours perusing the monster manual. So either they have to look it up during combat (aka kill the flow of the game) or never use the ability. I think that's one of the main reason druids are so seldom played.

A class feature that is so complicated that a newbie can't possibly use it is not a well designed feature.

And like I said. I also want more wild shape options like poison bites/sting, pounce, poison spray, grapple-bites, charge, ranged grapple attacks like shooting web or sticky mucus. And non-combat options like improved smell/hearing/seeing, camouflage. With that you could emulate the style of any animal without playing mother may I with the DM about delving into the monster manual.

I wouldn't agree really. I personally think it's completely reasonable that some classes and mechanics are more focused towards more knowledgeable players. So long as there are on ramp and simple classes available for them to pick.

And as for slowing down the game because of new players having to look things up. If that were an issue we'd have to scrap the entire casting system and start back from the ground up.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I wouldn't agree really. I personally think it's completely reasonable that some classes and mechanics are more focused towards more knowledgeable players. So long as there are on ramp and simple classes available for them to pick.

And as for slowing down the game because of new players having to look things up. If that were an issue we'd have to scrap the entire casting system and start back from the ground up.

One big issue with the current wildshape (and polymorph) things is that they mean no one can print interesting beasts without breaking those spells/abilities wide open. It's effectively impossible to balance in any coherent way, leading to the moon druid having these enormous power spikes and valleys. It also makes a mockery of the idea that PCs and NPCs are designed differently.

I won't comment on the UA since I haven't read it (and don't really plan to).

[Amnestic]

The Magic Action is explained in the later pages of the document.

"When you take the Magic action, you magic something by casting a spell that has a casting time of an action or by using a feature or Magic Item that requires a Magic action to be activated. If you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 minute or longer, you must take the Magic action on each turn of that casting, and you must maintain Concentration while you do so. If your Concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don’t expend a Spell Slot."

So at the very least it denotes concentration for some cases. Hopefully it will also help in the edition-long issue of determining whether something is magical effect or not.

Yeah, I did notice that section but I wasn't clear why Lay on Hands/Wild Shape was now a Magic Action instead of an 'action', since they don't/won't interfere with concentration, but I guess if it makes it explicitly nuked by anti-magic fields or potentially


Counterspell

then there is some value in that I suppose.

[JackPhoenix]

I'm in between the two. I like the wide variety of options, but I shouldn't need an additional book just to have the stat block for the class' primary feature.

Yeah, if only there were animal stat blocks in the PHB, in an appendix of some sort or... oh, wait.


One big issue with the current wildshape (and polymorph) things is that they mean no one can print interesting beasts without breaking those spells/abilities wide open. It's effectively impossible to balance in any coherent way, leading to the moon druid having these enormous power spikes and valleys. It also makes a mockery of the idea that PCs and NPCs are designed differently.

Why not? There are CR limitations to both abilities (although too generous in the case of Polymorph), so it doesn't really interfere with the ability to come up with more beasts. Or do you blame WotC's inability to write interesting animal stat block entirely on the existence of those 2 features?

[Psyren]

Ugh, no update on the Experts? Come on guys, we were promised beef!

Diving into this after my meetings

[GooeyChewie]

And a less than expert player is doomed because they didn't spend hours perusing the monster manual. So either they have to look it up during combat (aka kill the flow of the game) or never use the ability. I think that's one of the main reason druids are so seldom played.

A class feature that is so complicated that a newbie can't possibly use it is not a well designed feature.

And like I said. I also want more wild shape options like poison bites/sting, pounce, poison spray, grapple-bites, charge, ranged grapple attacks like shooting web or sticky mucus. And non-combat options like improved smell/hearing/seeing, camouflage. With that you could emulate the style of any animal without playing mother may I with the DM about delving into the monster manual.

A "less than expert" player could spend a few minutes picking one or two favored forms, stick to those, and be just fine. Sure they wouldn't get as much use out of Wild Shape as an expert player, but even a newbie can use 5E Wild Shape without killing the flow of the game.

[stoutstien]

Probably the best UA for 1 yet. OTOH it was also the two classes that had the least adjustment needed.

[Segev]

I'm in between the two. I like the wide variety of options, but I shouldn't need an additional book just to have the stat block for the class' primary feature.You don't. The PHB had a selection of perfectly fine Beasts to use in the back of it. There are more in the MM, but the PHB can have at least as many as this nerfed "feature" gives with the "assume the stat block" rules instead.


One big issue with the current wildshape (and polymorph) things is that they mean no one can print interesting beasts without breaking those spells/abilities wide open. It's effectively impossible to balance in any coherent way, leading to the moon druid having these enormous power spikes and valleys. It also makes a mockery of the idea that PCs and NPCs are designed differently.

I won't comment on the UA since I haven't read it (and don't really plan to).
I disagree. Not only is the CR-lock in place, but it would be fairly easy to limit the Druid to fairly specific shapes by giving a fixed list, or by having a number of "known forms." I'm not a fan of that; I much prefer the way it is now, but it would be a way to limit it. Also, if you're NOT using polymorph or Wild Shape, there's little reason to care if a creature is a Beast or a Monstrosity, so making anything you don't want a Druid to get to turn into a Monstrosity suffices.



A review of my skimming:


I do like that "channel nature" gains more uses. I preferred it when it was restored on a short rest, since druids get spells on a long rest, but I can live with more uses restored only on a long rest when they also have the "regain one on a short rest" thing. That is acceptable.


Healing Blossoms... eh, okay, I guess? A little extra healing isn't bad, but this is not really "druid-y" except by "er, um, it's flowers, right?" Like I said, not bad, but it honestly feels like the class is becoming more staid rather than more interesting with this addition. It's something that I wouldn't have batted an eye at as an optional feature in TCE, but it feels like, along with everything else, it's eating up space in the class that should go to something that actually speaks to being a druid, rather than a "nature-themed healer."

Wild Companion is fine.


I still hate what they're doing with spellcasting, making your prepared spells equal to your spell slots. Also, bolding because this is something that I think we all should agree we need to mention when the survey comes out, as written, 0 level spells require spell slots but they get no 0 level spell slots. I'm positive they mean for cantrips to remain "cast as many times as you want" things, but that's not what the rules say right now in this document.



They're nerfing Wild Shape even worse than just having it be a generic form that is the same no matter what animal you become. You don't get climb speeds until level 5, and you don't get swimming forms until level 7. Speaking as somebody playing a level 5 druid right now, a swim speed at level 4 was really cool, and it didn't stop me from preparing and using water breathing because the rest of the party needs that, too. I get why they'd try to lock the multiattack behind level 5; it's "extra attack," and they probably think they've balanced the attack power of the fixed fake form such that it's on par with extra attack classes' attacks.

And I wonder how long until the "Attack action" loses any dependency on what weapon you use, and just becomes fixed damage based on class and level, with you just "flavoring" what your attack looks like as any weapon you choose.

Flying form is moved from level 8 to level 9. They must really hate wild shape.

It's also worth noting that your abiltiy to use hands and wear armor depends on the form you choose for your shape, and there are zero benefits for assuming a form without hands or that cannot wear armor. Or maybe you can't wear armor or retain weapons because it merges or falls to the ground? So you drop your weapon but pick it back up, and lose your armor. Regardless, since there's literally no difference between a form of an ape, a hairless ape, a wolf, a spider, or a dire rat, you should always choose to be an ape or a hairless ape and retain your hands. Wild Shape is nothing but changing two of your stats to match your Wisdom, and adding darkvision and an unarmed strike.

...oh. Oh my. They've noticed that tiny forms have value. But they've vastly over-valued them and locked them behind LEVEL 10. So now your druid can't turn into a crow or a sparrow or a mouse until level 10!



Alternating Forms is actually a cool idea. I support this. Pity Wild Shape is awful, now.


Wild Resurgence is... okay, I guess. It's nice to heal yourself and everyone else when you wild shape.


I also dislike how the size of your wild shape matters even less. That's probably the only reason they allow the choice, really. Small is the best choice unless you're planning to grapple or be a mount. Then you choose Large. I see no purpose behind Medium, though corner cases (maybe you have a Small ally you want to be a mount for) may apply. It's... eh. This is honestly a small gripe compared to the major one about the nerfs throughout the druid class, and the utter disgusting blandness of the "pretend you're a creature, but you don't actually become one nor gain any abilities relevant to your form; this is just a funky Rage state" that Wild Shape has become.

I strongly dislike, too, that Druid looks full of class features, but actually it's becomes "the Wild Shape class" and most of the "features" are actually just moving removal of limitations to later and later levels. It's lame.


And holy wow is Circle of the Moon worth nothing, now. You don't get any real expanded wild shape options. If you thought elemental form was weak in 5e, it's just an extra d6 of damage in OneD&D. I suppose there might be worthwhile abjuration spells to cast while wild shaped, but I somehow doubt that's really going to be a game-changer (except for multiclass druid/wizards who pull out shield in wild shape forms).


Oh, and while - again - I get why they nerfed this, Wild Shape now doesn't do anything for your hit points and survivability. Your current and max hp don't change when you assume a new form, so when you shift, you're still using your own raw hp, are just as injured as before, and when you go to 0 hp you're just at 0 hp. Now, I understand; the idea here is to remove the "cheese" of druids using wild shape to survive combat. But the Circle of the Moon in particular is screwed by this... or would be if they actually were any better at fighting in their wild shape forms than any other Circle. Maybe the idea is to cast false life instead of fighting every other round? Bleh. Oh, wait, no, the spell you're supposed to cast is barkskin, of course. Of course, you can cast that without wild shape, too, and as mentioned, wild shape only gives you darkvision, changes your Str and Dex to match your Wisdom (which does mean they'll likely be 20, I guess, so that's nice), and gives you an unarmed strike and access to your extra attack class feature. And likely DROPS your AC to 15. Without giving you any hp to make up for this.

[Amechra]

I rather like Alternating Forms (the Druid's new 13th level feature that lets you take a break from Wild Shape to chat with people and cast spells or whatever), and the fact that you can smite people with a punch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyr2qzeLMTY) now. I'd have to go through the list of Primal spells again, but apparently Moon Druids can now cast Pass Without Trace while wildshaped? Huh.

That said, there's a bit of a weird glitch in the new Moon Druid — is Quick Attack supposed to work regardless of your form (AKA even while you're in your normal form)? And is it supposed to say Bestial Strike instead of Unarmed Strike? Because otherwise that feature feels like a bit of a trap.



...

I personally approve of the design decision to not treat the Monster Manual as a second spell list for the Druid. Maybe OneD&D's animals won't be trash garbage?

[animorte]

Yeah, if only there were animal stat blocks in the PHB, in an appendix of some sort or... oh, wait.

I personally approve of the design decision to not treat the Monster Manual as a second spell list for the Druid. Maybe OneD&D's animals won't be trash garbage?
Yup, was specifically responding to this notion:

INSTEAD OF USING ANIMALS FROM THE MM!

[skyth]

Interesting thing is they're going away from proficiency bonus per day for the number of times abilities can be used now.

[Dork_Forge]

Upon first reading, generally nerf city for Paladins overall compared to where they are now. Devotion looks a bit better.

More cramming healing features into spellcasters, what's the point of healing spells?

[firelistener]

It seems like you can freely choose any size for your Wild Shape. The example given is a small elephant, but does that also mean I can turn into a gargantuan size ape at level 1 and become King Kong? That would also have an interesting impact on grappling.

[GooeyChewie]

It seems like you can freely choose any size for your Wild Shape. The example given is a small elephant, but does that also mean I can turn into a gargantuan size ape at level 1 and become King Kong? That would also have an interesting impact on grappling.

Wild Shape allows you to choose from Small, Medium or Large. So no gargantuan ape, but large ape is fine. Like a mini-King Kong.

[Trask]

Pretty big nerf to paladin on divine smite, but I really like their treatment of find steed with different options based on the steed's type. I've always had a great affection for the image of the Paladin as a mounted warrior. I wish they would just buck up and make it a feature rather than a spell though.


Upon first reading, generally nerf city for Paladins overall compared to where they are now. Devotion looks a bit better.

More cramming healing features into spellcasters, what's the point of healing spells?

I really agree. I'm also really surprised there are so many healing options being thrown around in an edition where healing is already so plentiful. I've found that between spells, existing features, potions, magic items, and rests, players are already stuffed to the gills with healing. Do we really need more?

[Joe the Rat]

Druid tank is down, since you don't get the Wildshape hp buffer anymore. Balance-wise, it's probably for the best as it reduces CoDzilla tendencies.

Being able to turn into a canary with two 1d8+Wis bludgoning strikes at 11th? Comedy Gold.

Anyone want to wager on one of the Arcane Trio having something rebranded "Channel Arcane?"

[Amnestic]

Anyone want to wager on one of the Arcane Trio having something rebranded "Channel Arcane?"

I'm expecting metamagic to be a/the unifying 'arcane' feature they choose.

[Tectorman]

Not an in-depth read, but the good so far:
Druids can wear whatever armor and use whatever shield they want, independent of the material! They only start out proficient with shields and light armor, but if they spend the feat or multiclass, they can use all of whatever new armor proficiencies they want. No more "you just don't have the free will to decide otherwise", or even "you can wear metal armor, with the following consequences". That mess is finally behind us! May it never rear its ugly head again!

The bad so far:
Paladin Oaths still have tenets and recommendations to the DM to push against the player (via an alternate subclass or even mandating a different class altogether; I'm AFB but was that in the original; I remember "different subclass, probably Oathbreaker" but getting kicked out of the class completely seems new). Seems as pointlessly restrictive as ever. I wouldn't be able to play a Paladin with more than two levels in this edition, either (unless they were to surprise me and include the 100%-tenetless Oath of Treachery, the one that didn't even require you to be treacherous).

Disappointing that we see this welcome attitude of freeing a class from the albatross around its neck in only one of these two classes, especially given that these were the only two classes still so unduly burdoned!

[Segev]

I rather like Alternating Forms (the Druid's new 13th level feature that lets you take a break from Wild Shape to chat with people and cast spells or whatever)Agreed.


I'd have to go through the list of Primal spells again, but apparently Moon Druids can now cast Pass Without Trace while wildshaped? Huh.Huh, indeed. I'd forgotten PWT was abjuration. That's...interesting. Moon druids are now the STEALTH druid, rather than the combat druid? (Not that any druid is combat druid anymore.)


I personally approve of the design decision to not treat the Monster Manual as a second spell list for the Druid. Maybe OneD&D's animals won't be trash garbage?I do not approve of it. And unless they move what would've been Monstrosities into Beasts, it won't. Nor will it matter, since the only reason anybody cares about Beast vs. Monstrosity is for the things that affect beasts and not monstrosities: animal friendship (which may be the one thing that still cares...and probably is going to go away for the exact reason you approve of), Ranger favored enemies (which are gone), and shapeshifting effects that specify beast forms (which are gone).

So, no, Beasts are unlikely to "not suck" in OneD&D, unless they merge Monstrosities into them, and it will not matter either way.


Druid tank is down, since you don't get the Wildshape hp buffer anymore. Balance-wise, it's probably for the best as it reduces CoDzilla tendencies.Druids are back-rankers now. And wild shaping actively makes you more fragile.

Moon Druid was the only one who could really tank before. Now, it, too, can't afford to be in melee, despite it clearly having features that assume it should be. :smallyuk:

[Dienekes]

Not an in-depth read, but the good so far:
The bad so far:
Paladin Oaths still have tenets and recommendations to the DM to push against the player (via an alternate subclass or even mandating a different class altogether; I'm AFB but was that in the original; I remember "different subclass, probably Oathbreaker" but getting kicked out of the class completely seems new). Seems as pointlessly restrictive as ever. I wouldn't be able to play a Paladin with more than two levels in this edition, either (unless they were to surprise me and include the 100%-tenetless Oath of Treachery, the one that didn't even require you to be treacherous).

Disappointing that we see this welcome attitude of freeing a class from the albatross around its neck in only one of these two classes, especially given that these were the only two classes still so unduly burdoned!

But… being bound by an oath is literally the entire thematic point of the class. It’s designed to reflect the chivalric codes of medieval romances. You remove the oath and it fails to reflect anything.

[windgate]

Still browsing through, one interesting note: Smite doesn't seem limited to melee attacks.




Bring forth the Paladin who strikes his enemies with the Fists of Divine Justice! :)

[Melil12]

I would have liked to see wild shape give Temp HP at the very least.

I also hear what people are saying about abilities of said monsters.

Maybe more options instead of multi attack … a poison dmg or special ability to mimic monsters.

[Atranen]

I'm in between the two. I like the wide variety of options, but I shouldn't need an additional book just to have the stat block for the class' primary feature.


I'm the exact opposite: I loathe this move and liked the way it was done before much better. I want to actually turn into interesting creatures. I like the idea that turning into a spider is different than turning into a giant wolf spider is different than turning into a mastiff is different than turning into a wolf is different than turning into a snake.


One big issue with the current wildshape (and polymorph) things is that they mean no one can print interesting beasts without breaking those spells/abilities wide open. It's effectively impossible to balance in any coherent way, leading to the moon druid having these enormous power spikes and valleys. It also makes a mockery of the idea that PCs and NPCs are designed differently.

I won't comment on the UA since I haven't read it (and don't really plan to).

They've solved this problem effectively before, with the command spell (which should be a touchstone for any 'DM May I' type ability): have a list of specific, guaranteed effects the player can access, then state others may be available upon DM request. In most cases, a player can simply use "Command: Halt" without any second thought, while the door is open to more interesting possibilities.

They should do this for wild shape: Have a list of 5 beasts (+5 with swim, +5 with fly, etc.) that the player is guaranteed access to, and print their statblocks in an easily accessible location (like the back of the PHB). Then say 'other forms may be available as long as they follow this CR limit'. That gives the DM leeway to ban unbalanced options and guarantees the player worthwhile thematic uses of their ability.

(This is also what they need to do for conjure animals and the like).



I strongly dislike, too, that Druid looks full of class features, but actually it's becomes "the Wild Shape class" and most of the "features" are actually just moving removal of limitations to later and later levels. It's lame.

I'd much prefer they be the 'channel nature' class (but, uh, please rename that) and have wild shape be one thing that some druids emphasize.

[Tectorman]

But… being bound by an oath is literally the entire thematic point of the class. It’s designed to reflect the chivalric codes of medieval romances. You remove the oath and it fails to reflect anything.

Not everyone playing this game and not everyone playing the Paladin class is doing so with a care for the thematic point, though. Anyone wanting to play a Wizard, or a Druid, or a Rogue, or a Bard, etc., for the themes represented by the class may do so. And anyone wanting to play those classes for different reasons may also do so. Anyone wanting to play a Paladin for the themes may do so, even without the game including a sidebar telling the DM to hang a proverbial Sword of Damocles over the player's head.

But anyone wanting to play a Paladin, but not because of its thematic point? I guess "screw those losers".

[windgate]

Sure, you get to choose the shape. But the shape is utterly meaningless. One of the coolest things about Druids in current 5e is that a creative player can choose from a wide array of creatures to get various benefits. This single-stat-block concept takes away a lot of Wild Shape's flexibility.

I like the simple baseline stat block. That being said, there does need to be the option for more variance of abilities granted to wideshape.

Im not sold on the current playtest version of the level 3 features for the moon druid subclass. Perhaps ditch those and instead let the Moon Druid add their choice of a features to their chosen wild shape with examples like:

Increased Speed
Increased Hitpoints
Increased AC
Add a "saving throw" element to an attack (aka poison)
Blindsight

That way, a bat will feel like a bat, and a spider feels like a spider, etc.

[Segev]

They've solved this problem effectively before, with the command spell (which should be a touchstone for any 'DM May I' type ability): have a list of specific, guaranteed effects the player can access, then state others may be available upon DM request. In most cases, a player can simply use "Command: Halt" without any second thought, while the door is open to more interesting possibilities.

They should do this for wild shape: Have a list of 5 beasts (+5 with swim, +5 with fly, etc.) that the player is guaranteed access to, and print their statblocks in an easily accessible location (like the back of the PHB). Then say 'other forms may be available as long as they follow this CR limit'. That gives the DM leeway to ban unbalanced options and guarantees the player worthwhile thematic uses of their ability.

(This is also what they need to do for conjure animals and the like).



I'd much prefer they be the 'channel nature' class (but, uh, please rename that) and have wild shape be one thing that some druids emphasize.

I could get behind these suggestions. Heck, while I think "healing blossoms" is a bit lame, it's not bad as a mechanic if healing is supposed to be part of the main druid kit. I'd honestly like to see it do more than be "Dream Circle's lame first feature," though, even if "more" is less mechanically potent and just somehow mechanically interesting.

Heck, maybe replace the goodberry spell with Healing Blossoms, and make the blossoms xd4 petals you can blow onto people for healing or something.

[OvisCaedo]

Almost everything about the druid changes looks... pretty terrible except for Alternating Forms. Unless I'm misunderstanding it, healing blossoms is an... idea for something, but looks very weak and poorly scaling. Wisdom modifier of d4s? I guess that will still be nice at the lower levels, but that's only around 12 HP on average with capped wisdom. Divided amongst targets. I guess it's a class action healing word for pop-up healing?

Most of the class looks like increasing focus on wild shape while also... nerfing a lot of its utility. A lot of levels' class features are just adding things to it that used to be included in the base feature's description. I'm not sure if, combat statblock wise, the new direction is better or worse than animal forms were on average.

The mass conversion of level up features to Wild Shape benefits is also rather amusing combined with wild shape charges instead being "channel divinitynature" charges with competing uses.

edit: wow I decided to double check it and *all* of the main class features after 2 are about wild shape until 18. Which... also is pretty much just about charges, for wild shape (or whatever meaningful competition for the resource subclasses give)

[Dienekes]

Not everyone playing this game and not everyone playing the Paladin class is doing so with a care for the thematic point, though. Anyone wanting to play a Wizard, or a Druid, or a Rogue, or a Bard, etc., for the themes represented by the class may do so. And anyone wanting to play those classes for different reasons may also do so. Anyone wanting to play a Paladin for the themes may do so, even without the game including a sidebar telling the DM to hang a proverbial Sword of Damocles over the player's head.

But anyone wanting to play a Paladin, but not because of its thematic point? I guess "screw those losers".

I mean, yeah. If the point of the class is for the concept of “I am bound to my oath, it empowers me as it does limit me.” Then if you don’t want to play that concept pick another. If you want generic divine frontliner you have the Cleric with heavy armor and melee benefits. If you’re engage in the burst potential Fighter with Action Surge.

But to demand a class that is meant to represent something not represent that thing, that’s just weird.

[KorvinStarmast]

Still browsing through, one interesting note: Smite doesn't seem limited to melee attacks. Good. (I have already made that change myself at table when I DM.

Otherwise, you now automatically get access to Find Steed as a class feature. You can cast it once without using a spell slot, so going into combat astride your faithful horse is a bit more easy to lean into. Good!

I'm the exact opposite: I loathe this move and liked the way it was done before much better. I want to actually turn into interesting creatures. I like the idea that turning into a spider is different than turning into a giant wolf spider is different than turning into a mastiff is different than turning into a wolf is different than turning into a snake. Feel the same way.

Probably the best UA for 1 yet. OTOH it was also the two classes that had the least adjustment needed. Fair point.

[MoiMagnus]

Pretty big nerf to paladin on divine smite

On the other hand, all the "spell smites" no longer require concentration, which is a nice buff.
Especially if you were to miss your attack, no more risking to loose your spell slot for nothing due to some enemy attack.

[BRC]

You don't. The PHB had a selection of perfectly fine Beasts to use in the back of it. There are more in the MM, but the PHB can have at least as many as this nerfed "feature" gives with the "assume the stat block" rules instead.


I disagree. Not only is the CR-lock in place, but it would be fairly easy to limit the Druid to fairly specific shapes by giving a fixed list, or by having a number of "known forms." I'm not a fan of that; I much prefer the way it is now, but it would be a way to limit it. Also, if you're NOT using polymorph or Wild Shape, there's little reason to care if a creature is a Beast or a Monstrosity, so making anything you don't want a Druid to get to turn into a Monstrosity suffices.



What would be your thoughts on giving both as options.

as I see it, Wild Shape has two uses: Utility and Combat.

For utility, you want stuff like mice, spiders, bats, sparrows ect.

For Combat, you're usually just picking the biggest statblock you can and going at it, with the exceptions of if you need a good aquatic or airborne combat form.

I Guess there is the edge case of, say, trying to find something with Blindsense to fight an invisible enemy, but that's rare enough I'm willing to drop it.


Basically, have a list of approved forms (Or just say "Small beasts less than CR 1/2) for utility, and then use the "Set Statblock+Options" for combat forms. This means that a druid that's invested in looking like, I dunno, a Wolf, can keep being a wolf even as they level up. It does lock you out of some combat/utility hybrids (Like Giant Spiders), but I feel like it covers most of the circumstances?

Edit: I guess there's no reason to not just have it be "Beast less than X CR OR your Combat Form", with the idea that the combat form's raw stats will outperform any of the available specific beasts, so if you just need a statblock for a beatdown you can just go with Combat Form rather than diving the Monster Manual.

[Segev]

What would be your thoughts on giving both as options.

as I see it, Wild Shape has two uses: Utility and Combat.

For utility, you want stuff like mice, spiders, bats, sparrows ect.

For Combat, you're usually just picking the biggest statblock you can and going at it, with the exceptions of if you need a good aquatic or airborne combat form.

I Guess there is the edge case of, say, trying to find something with Blindsense to fight an invisible enemy, but that's rare enough I'm willing to drop it.


Basically, have a list of approved forms (Or just say "Small beasts less than CR 1/2) for utility, and then use the "Set Statblock+Options" for combat forms. This means that a druid that's invested in looking like, I dunno, a Wolf, can keep being a wolf even as they level up. It does lock you out of some combat/utility hybrids (Like Giant Spiders), but I feel like it covers most of the circumstances?
I dislike the "set statblock template" thing on an aesthetic level, but generally don't mind options for those who feel differently.

I will point out that the statblock as it stands and the rules for wild shape given in this UA make it suicidally stupid to assume wild shape - even as a moon druid - in combat.

[Tectorman]

I mean, yeah. If the point of the class is for the concept of “I am bound to my oath, it empowers me as it does limit me.” Then if you don’t want to play that concept pick another. If you want generic divine frontliner you have the Cleric with heavy armor and melee benefits. If you’re engage in the burst potential Fighter with Action Surge.

But to demand a class that is meant to represent something not represent that thing, that’s just weird.

It's the class with the smiting, the magic steed, and all the other Paladin class features. Of all the classes in the game, the Paladin class is the one that is meant to represent that, and therefore represents that to a tee.

Again, not everyone playing a Paladin is playing one for your reasons. It's okay in the case of every other class. And a lack of a Sword of Damocles doesn't stop you from still playing your Paladin with the chivalric code of honor you think he should have. You have no obstacles or impediments to picking your class for whatever reasons you do and I am very happy for you. I applaud your good fortune.

I'd just like the same courtesy extended towards me. My demand, as you phrase it, is for some simple reciprocity.

Why is that so damned much to ask?

[jas61292]

With regard to wild shape, I love the fact that they are killing off book diving and making it template based, but I think they missed the mark on the specific implementation. As is in this UA, it's a poor combat ability that turns into a very mediocre combat ability with the moon subclass. I personally liked that in 5e it was utility first for everyone but moon. I do think it needed to be toned down, but I don't think it needed utility to be so thoroughly gutted.

I also think moon needs better durability. Getting rid of the massive temp hp pool that it was is a good decision, but providing no defensive utility means it is mostly a downgrade for combat, not an upgrade.

Make the base forms weaker but more flexible (such as a small list of selectable features), and give the moon druid more defensive utility, and I think this would be amazing.

[Joe the Rat]

I'd much prefer they be the 'channel nature' class (but, uh, please rename that)
I rather like Primeval Channel - push the theme of the spell group, give it the feel of drawing from ancient forces of the world, and vaguely hint at turning into a dinosaur.

[Tanarii]

Wow. HUGE NERF to Druids. Wildshape no longer gives HPs.

I mean, they needed some nerf, it's pretty ridiculous as it stands. But I don't see that they got any survivability in return. They've dropped out of the category of buff/heal/off-tank, just leaving Clerics there.

[Gignere]

It's the class with the smiting, the magic steed, and all the other Paladin class features. Of all the classes in the game, the Paladin class is the one that is meant to represent that, and therefore represents that to a tee.

Again, not everyone playing a Paladin is playing one for your reasons. It's okay in the case of every other class. And a lack of a Sword of Damocles doesn't stop you from still playing your Paladin with the chivalric code of honor you think he should have. You have no obstacles or impediments to picking your class for whatever reasons you do and I am very happy for you. I applaud your good fortune.

I'd just like the same courtesy extended towards me. My demand, as you phrase it, is for some simple reciprocity.

Why is that so damned much to ask?

With the new divine spell list a cleric built for melee would satisfy everything you want. Clerics get smite spells, find steed, heavy armor, martial weapons. So you now have your generic Paladin without an oath.

[PhoenixPhyre]

They've solved this problem effectively before, with the command spell (which should be a touchstone for any 'DM May I' type ability): have a list of specific, guaranteed effects the player can access, then state others may be available upon DM request. In most cases, a player can simply use "Command: Halt" without any second thought, while the door is open to more interesting possibilities.

They should do this for wild shape: Have a list of 5 beasts (+5 with swim, +5 with fly, etc.) that the player is guaranteed access to, and print their statblocks in an easily accessible location (like the back of the PHB). Then say 'other forms may be available as long as they follow this CR limit'. That gives the DM leeway to ban unbalanced options and guarantees the player worthwhile thematic uses of their ability.

(This is also what they need to do for conjure animals and the like).
.

I'd be totally fine with "here are your options". I'd prefer any additional stuff to be more like "the DM may allow other forms if they want, those forms should <follow criteria>", making it clear that it's not expected. That is, that any additional forms are due to the DM whitelisting them, not due to the DM blacklisting them. Default deny vs default allow.

[JackPhoenix]

I'd just like the same courtesy extended towards me. My demand, as you phrase it, is for some simple reciprocity.

Why is that so damned much to ask?

You make demands, yet offer nothing in return. That's not how reciprocity works. Also, you clearly don't want to play a paladin, you want a bunch of mechanical benefits (most of which is covered by cleric, because they share spell lists, which means cleric has smite spells and a magic horse too).

[BRC]

I dislike the "set statblock template" thing on an aesthetic level, but generally don't mind options for those who feel differently.

I will point out that the statblock as it stands and the rules for wild shape given in this UA make it suicidally stupid to assume wild shape - even as a moon druid - in combat.

What are you talking about, possibly reducing your AC* and losing spellcasting in exchange for becoming a mediocre martial is a fun and dynamic move that I can't wait to do

*leather armor+Shield+12 dex = 14 AC available from starting equipment alone. To get that using these rules, you would need 18 Wisdom. Picking up studded leather (Since "Druids can't wear metal" isn't anywhere on here) is pretty easy, at which point you need 20 wisdom to not lose AC.

Under old rules, losing AC to wildshape was fine because the new form came with a giant hit point buffer, so you didn't mind taking damage. Here, unless I'm misreading it, you keep your current hit point totals. So unless you're at 20 wis, you're survivability will probably just go down in Animal Form.


I guess it's better than other options if you're out of spells and just want to wade into the fight, but Cantrips kind of solved the "Caster doesn't want to use slots" problem.

[Atranen]

I'd be totally fine with "here are your options". I'd prefer any additional stuff to be more like "the DM may allow other forms if they want, those forms should <follow criteria>", making it clear that it's not expected. That is, that any additional forms are due to the DM whitelisting them, not due to the DM blacklisting them. Default deny vs default allow.

I get your concern; in this case I like default whitelist because I like my druids to have access to a wide variety of forms, and that's the kind of experience I expect playing a druid. But I would be ok with either.

[Ganryu]

Anyone else notice Spare the Dying now heals? (Or did I miss it in cleric update?)

I'm not sure how I feel. It feels really bad to just be stabilized, but makes yoyo healing a bigger problem.

I wish going down had a penalty. So many tables homebrew that in.

[Gignere]

What are you talking about, possibly reducing your AC* and losing spellcasting in exchange for becoming a mediocre martial is a fun and dynamic move that I can't wait to do

*leather armor+Shield+12 dex = 14 AC available from starting equipment alone. To get that using these rules, you would need 18 Wisdom. Picking up studded leather (Since "Druids can't wear metal" isn't anywhere on here) is pretty easy, at which point you need 20 wisdom to not lose AC.

Under old rules, losing AC to wildshape was fine because the new form came with a giant hit point buffer, so you didn't mind taking damage. Here, unless I'm misreading it, you keep your current hit point totals. So unless you're at 20 wis, you're survivability will probably just go down in Animal Form.


I guess it's better than other options if you're out of spells and just want to wade into the fight, but Cantrips kind of solved the "Caster doesn't want to use slots" problem.

First of all I love all the changes in this UA. Probably best UA yet.

I think druids being a full caster would need spells to supplement their survivability. No one expects a Bladesinger to tank as well as a fighter without casting shield.

So druids will need bark skin if they want to be the tank Druid. Which is fine, certainly better than now where a moon Druid can shift and tank like some of the most optimize tanking builds.

This also can allow them to add survivability by tweaking or adding specific spells to the druids.

[Segev]

Anyone else notice Spare the Dying now heals? (Or did I miss it in cleric update?)

I'm not sure how I feel. It feels really bad to just be stabilized, but makes yoyo healing a bigger problem.

I wish going down had a penalty. So many tables homebrew that in.

I don't dislike it, myself, but I am a little leery that it, itself, is a bad move, balance-wise. Healing word and cure wounds already are primarily useful for pop-up healing. Spare the dying just became much better for it, since it's a cantrip.

[Tectorman]

You make demands, yet offer nothing in return. That's not how reciprocity works. Also, you clearly don't want to play a paladin, you want a bunch of mechanical benefits (most of which is covered by cleric, because they share spell lists, which means cleric has smite spells and a magic horse too).

What could I possibly offer, though? The other side already has everything. A rising tide that lifts all boats doesn't do much for the boats already floating. Hell, improving my side doesn't even come at the cost of diminishing theirs' (since going from a state of "Sword of Damocles" to "no Sword of Damocles" doesn't change their ability to play a Paladin in accordance with whatever code of behavior they think appropriate). All I can offer is my congratulations and promise to stand against any enforced diminishment of their ability to play their way for their stated reasons, however unnecessary said standing may be.

Also, I said "It's the class with the smiting, the magic steed, and all the other Paladin class features." So I will look over them again. Maybe I missed something and the Cleric really does have everything the Paladin has. Every hit point, every aura, every single class feature. Every everything. If not, then I stand by my point.

[stoutstien]

On the other hand, all the "spell smites" no longer require concentration, which is a nice buff.
Especially if you were to miss your attack, no more risking to loose your spell slot for nothing due to some enemy attack.

Yea more of a shuffle than a nerf...other than the general blandining

[JackPhoenix]

I'd be totally fine with "here are your options". I'd prefer any additional stuff to be more like "the DM may allow other forms if they want, those forms should <follow criteria>", making it clear that it's not expected. That is, that any additional forms are due to the DM whitelisting them, not due to the DM blacklisting them. Default deny vs default allow.

Here's a funny thing: It already works like that. Wildshape doesn't tell you to go book diving, it tells you you can transform into any animal, and the appendix in the PHB lists available animals ("Spells and class features allow to transform into animals, summon creatures to serve as familiars, and create undead. Statistics for such creatures are grouped in this appendix for your convenience"). There are more in MM and other splatbooks, but MM says it on its first page (well, first page that actually matters, not the table of contents and credits): "The Monster Manual, like the Dungeon Master's Guide, is a book for DMs" and even in its very first sentence: "This bestiary is for storytellers and worldbuilders."

It's not a resource for players unless the DM says otherwise.

[Jerrykhor]

Geez, Wildshape was hit with a heavy nerf bat. I get that you are supposed to use your imagination, but without the mechanics to back it up, using magic to transform into a big burly bear just does not work when the mechanics make you feel like a man inside a bear costume.

[Segev]

Geez, Wildshape was hit with a heavy nerf bat. I get that you are supposed to use your imagination, but without the mechanics to back it up, using magic to transform into a big burly bear just does not work when the mechanics make you feel like a man inside a bear costume.

Perfectly put. I will just add, to contribute something other than "hear here," that it's an ill-fitting bear costume, to boot. And it doesn't matter if it's a bear costume or a wolf costume or a spider costume.

[stoutstien]

Geez, Wildshape was hit with a heavy nerf bat. I get that you are supposed to use your imagination, but without the mechanics to back it up, using magic to transform into a big burly bear just does not work when the mechanics make you feel like a man inside a bear costume.

Maybe they are banking on the fact they couldn't code it properly in those new VTT so it's a nerf if convenient rather than balance.

[Segev]

Maybe they are banking on the fact they couldn't code it properly in those new VTT so it's a nerf if convenient rather than balance.

Oh, godlings, you're almost certainly right. Needing to call up menus of beast upon beast would be a lot more trouble to make smooth. Of course, it works fine with existing VTTs; just bring in a new pog. But WotC is going to be going for the smoothest one-stop thing they can do, and I would be entirely unsurprised if they sacrificed everything flavorful about the game on the altar of video game mechanics.

[Atranen]

Maybe they are banking on the fact they couldn't code it properly in those new VTT so it's a nerf if convenient rather than balance.

This makes way more sense than I'd like.

[Psyren]

I for one love the statblock approach to Wild Shape.

What gives me pause though is the clause that "you lose access to all your other features while wild shaped." RIP Barbearian and Moonk builds, and goodbye racials for that matter. Instead of the anatomy thing, they nixed all of them. At least the forms have Darkvision?

[BRC]

Oh, godlings, you're almost certainly right. Needing to call up menus of beast upon beast would be a lot more trouble to make smooth. Of course, it works fine with existing VTTs; just bring in a new pog. But WotC is going to be going for the smoothest one-stop thing they can do, and I would be entirely unsurprised if they sacrificed everything flavorful about the game on the altar of video game mechanics.

While it's certainly easier to do, it would piggyback off stuff they would already need to code in (DM's dropping in stat blocks, Polymorph, ect).


I instead feel like it's an attempt to encourage player creativity as regards fluff, since you can now have them turn into whatever animal or hybrid they want, rather than picking the best statblock available, and to make sure that the druid's "Chosen" statblock scales with level.

Also as a nerf.

I do agree that "Can turn into an abstracted Combat Form" is thematically distinct from "Can turn into A Bear".

[Gignere]

While it's certainly easier to do, it would piggyback off stuff they would already need to code in (DM's dropping in stat blocks, Polymorph, ect).


I instead feel like it's an attempt to encourage player creativity as regards fluff, since you can now have them turn into whatever animal or hybrid they want, rather than picking the best statblock available.

Also allows the Druid concept of turning into a single creature instead of needing to be a bear this level, a crocodile for level x, a dinosaur for level y. Some people just want to be able to turn into a tiger as their combat form for every level. Now they can and it scales.

[ZRN]

I'm in between the two. I like the wide variety of options, but I shouldn't need an additional book just to have the stat block for the class' primary feature.

I think the change makes wildform much more easy to figure out for combat but puts the DM in a weird position for exploration scenarios. What if the player wants to turn into a big spider and build a bridge out of webbing, or turn into a flying squirrel to glide between trees? Those were always weird edge cases, but previously there was at least a way to adjudicate them (pull out the MM and find the closest beast, and look for special abilities) - now a druid wildshaped into a spider can only do different stuff from a druid wildshaped into a platypus if the DM specifically goes out of his way to add custom abilities beyond the stat block. So in a sense this can be even more "mother may I" than the previous version.

The strictest reading, of course, is that a druid in wildshape doesn't get ANY of the special abilities of the animal forms it chooses, which really makes druids less interesting for exploration.

[GooeyChewie]

But… being bound by an oath is literally the entire thematic point of the class. It’s designed to reflect the chivalric codes of medieval romances. You remove the oath and it fails to reflect anything.

The key word there is "thematic." Other classes don't have mechanical punishments for failing to adhere to thematic points. If I play a Druid who hates nature, I'm certainly going against the entire thematic point of the class, but nothing tells the DM to force me into another class.

Personally I don't have a desire to play a Paladin who does not feel bound by their oath. But I could totally understand a player wanting the mechanics of a particular Oath while wanting to take a different thematic twist on it. And while I think the DM should be able to veto such things if they don't fit in the campaign, I don't think the PHB should call out this one class theme as a case where the DM is encouraged to enforce mechanical penalties.

[BRC]

Also allows the Druid concept of turning into a single creature instead of needing to be a bear this level, a crocodile for level x, a dinosaur for level y. Some people just want to be able to turn into a tiger as their combat form for every level. Now they can and it scales.

True, but, especially for stuff like Tigers, it feels off that the "Tiger Form" is basically indistinguishable from a stripped-down martial (2 decent D8 attacks) and can't Pounce.

I feel like an easy approach would be to come up with some simple template system. "Add X Hit points and +Y to attack and damage for ever CR difference between the chosen statblock and your hypothetical maximum", similar to how they do the Summon spells scaling with level, although that would open up space for a lot of book-diving shenanigans (For example, a +Y to attack and damage greatly benefits forms with innate multiattack)

[Jerrykhor]

Also allows the Druid concept of turning into a single creature instead of needing to be a bear this level, a crocodile for level x, a dinosaur for level y. Some people just want to be able to turn into a tiger as their combat form for every level. Now they can and it scales.

You might as well put on your fake cat ears, fake cat claws, crawl on all fours and call yourself a tiger. Before level 5 you can't climb (some real cat you are), and you aren't hitting harder than your human form with a quarterstaff. Why bother at all? What is the point of this ****ty feature?

[Hawk7915]

Paladin: I think the good (earlier spellcasting, Cantrips without spending a fighting style/feat, ranged/unarmed Smites, more spell slots overall since you get a free oath spell of each level per day, dramatic improvements to Find Steed) more than outweigh the bad (Aura of Protection comes online later, Smite can't be stacked with casting, is only 1/turn, and doesn't deal extra to undead/fiends, Divine Sense takes Channel Divinity charges, much fewer innate immunities). Overall this seems in line with stabilizing/normalizing "Tier 1" experience (Paladins are more functional at level 1) and slowing the power spike of Tier 2 and Tier 3 down while also curbing a lot of the common TO strategies of the game (Divine Smite is still good, but will be hard to combo with other class features for massive 100 damage nova rounds).

Druid: Sorta sucks now? I'm really, really struggling to see the good here.

Wildshape is just straight up worse now. It's poor utility for non-Moon druids until the start of Tier 3 at which point you can finally be a tiny flying creature for spying purposes. You can flavor it however you want, but it's just flavor as in 4E - there's no mechanical difference between being a Spider, a Wolf, a Tiger, or an Elk. Given how many features are now dedicated to "improving" base Wild Shape, it takes up a ton of the druid's text block and leaves them with very little exciting that a Cleric doesn't have.
Moon Druid makes wildshape meaningfully more interesting, but it still seems like a trap. If you want to be in melee as a Druid, wildshaping will modestly improve your damage (by making your Wisdom SAD with extra attack at 5th and possibly free unarmed strikes???) at the expense of probably tanking your armor class.
Still on Wildshape - the 13th level feature is cute, but the new text for Wildshape says:


While in a form, its game statistics replace yours, and your ability to handle objects isdetermined by the form’s limbs, rather than your own.You retain your personality, memories,ability to speak, and Wild Shape. You lose access to all your other features, such as the ability tocast spells (you can continue to concentrate onone).

Emphasis mine. So, you can already talk in Wildshape form, and there's no mechanical reason to be anything other than a Monkey/Gorilla with opposable thumbs to keep wielding weapons or holding a shield. The casting piece here is nice, but the utility of it is otherwise pretty watered down.

Literally all but one feature relates to wildshaping - the other gives two additional uses for "Channel Nature", Wild Companion (free find familiar is fine and due to how recharging works, all druids should have familiars now). Healing Blossoms will be the other default use of the channel nature since Wildshape is terrible for non-moon Druids and mediocre for Moon Druids, but it also sucks. "Wisdom Mod d4s" is on average 7.5 points of healing at 2nd level and a max of 15 points of healing at 20th level with a 22 Wisdom. Starting out this is competitive with Cure Wounds, so basically think of it as a free extra cure wounds that you can split. It's not bad especially recharging on a short rest, but it scales terribly compared to upcasting Cure Wounds and looks hilariously bad compared to Lay on Hands.
Moon Druid makes things slightly less terrible, but it's still a steep fall from the current Moon Druid. Abjuration spells while shapeshifted is neat - heal, Absorb Elements, a few other tricks. Assuming they meant "Bestial Strike" for the "Quick Attack" feature, that also keeps the DPR of a Moon Druid roughly equal to the current form and makes it largely better than a cantrip. But with no improvement to survivability (in fact a decrease, as "10 + Wis" is probably worse than "10 + Dex + Leather + Shield for AC and scales poorly) and no synergy with multiclassing, it makes it sort of a niche option, one that isn't meaningfully different than just casting Shilleleagh. The higher-level features are a huge thud of underwhelming as well. Notably, losing the ability to pierce damage reduction means even with triple-attack and +1d6 elemental damage at 10, the Moon Druids DPR falls off a cliff and they become totally reliant on something like an Eldritch Claw Tattoo at higher levels.


I think "Channel Nature" is a fine thing, and a logical change that will make the Spore and Wildfire druid easier to Grok. I know that Druid generally and Moon Druid specifically are also the scourge of Tier 1 play, with way more power than any one class really deserves. But this first pass more or less kills the class for me, and other than "I think the flowers are neat" there's very little mechanically here to get me to play Druid over Cleric or Bard or Paladin as a support character. I think my hope is to kill the sacred cow, take wildshape away from Core Druid, make it specific to Moon Druid, and restore at least some of its current power.

[Dienekes]

It's the class with the smiting, the magic steed, and all the other Paladin class features. Of all the classes in the game, the Paladin class is the one that is meant to represent that, and therefore represents that to a tee.

Again, not everyone playing a Paladin is playing one for your reasons. It's okay in the case of every other class. And a lack of a Sword of Damocles doesn't stop you from still playing your Paladin with the chivalric code of honor you think he should have. You have no obstacles or impediments to picking your class for whatever reasons you do and I am very happy for you. I applaud your good fortune.

I'd just like the same courtesy extended towards me. My demand, as you phrase it, is for some simple reciprocity.

Why is that so damned much to ask?

The issue comes down to, do you want to divorce mechanical benefits from the flavor and fluff that they are supposed to represent?

For me, the answer is a solid heavy no. In fact I kinda think 5e has already been doing that too much. Hence the discussion on wild shape forms. Genericizing and genericizing and chipping away until what the fluff says it does (in this case: gains power through a divine oath) no matter actually has any baring on the actual game. That is the exact opposite of the kind of system I enjoy playing in. I want the flavor to be etched into the rules. If you can fiddle with it a bit, homebrew around to make something work for a weird concept? Cool. But that means far less to me than seeing how the mechanics guide you into playing in a way to enhance the narrative experience. To me it's the same as when people argue against the restrictions of the Rage feature, in not being able to concentrate or cast spells and must constantly attack. If you look at it solely through a mechanical standpoint, that's a weakness. To me, that's what makes it Rage. Your character is overwhelmed by ferocity. Of course they're not being able to concentrate on something else. If they could, then they wouldn't be in a blind rage.

You seem to be far on the one side, and I'm on the other.

[stoutstien]

Im officially done with one as far as feedback goes so I'm mostly just hunting for good ideas.

The overall reverse pleasantville effect is a little to much for me now. I'm probably just going wait for the final product and then read it.

[animorte]

As a response to several "Druid Nerf!" comments, it looks they might be taking the classic route of bringing something down to a more basic level so that the improvements can be added on later as (sub)class features.

[BRC]

You might as well put on your fake cat ears, fake cat claws, crawl on all fours and call yourself a tiger. Before level 5 you can't climb (some real cat you are), and you aren't hitting harder than your human form with a quarterstaff. Why bother at all? What is the point of this ****ty feature?

The point is to get players into the fantasy of "I turn into a tiger" ASAP, and let them have fun describing their different forms.

Although, as I think about it, I feel like it would all work a lot better as follows.

1) Put in a line of "You choose the appearance of the wild form", they've already got stuff like that all over the place (Say, with the Artificer's Steel Defender feature), so they're clearly okay with not especially worrying about letting people fluff their own stuff.

2) Build a series of scaling Animal statblocks, both for Druids, AND For GMs who maybe want some Wolves that can challenge a higher level party to accompany The Lord Of The Hunt.


Animal statblocks are pretty simple, so it wouldn't be hard to expand out different Animals, especially since you could just slap that info Online and have people print out the statblock of their choice. Put in a sidebar about "For Wolves of higher CR, visit D&Dbeyond/reallybigdogs"

Big Cat: CR 1/2, CR 1, CR 2, CR 3, CR 4, CR 5
Wolf:CR 1/2, CR 1, CR 2, CR 3, CR 4, CR 5
Bear: CR 1, CR 2, CR 3, CR 4, CR 5


By current Moon Druid rules, the highest you can go with any animal form is CR 6 (1/3rd of 18).

[Chaos Jackal]

I will say, the druid changes look extremely unsatisfying.

The power level of the new Wild Shape is pretty low. Let's be real here, there's a reason Tenser's transformation has typically been considered extremely niche at best and a joke at worst. Trading in your casting (and, the way the ability is written, also everything else, like feats and whatever non-Wild Shape subclass features you potentially have) for a little extra AC or more likely an AC loss and some weak attacks is a hliariously bad trade. You need to wait until lv13 to shift between forms should you need to cast a spell (which you're likely to prefer anyway to your weak attacks). Sure, eventually you effectively end up with permanent flight and spellcasting, but waiting 17 levels for that sucks. Though power alone isn't the real issue.

See, the flavor's also really lacking. "Become generic statblock, say you're a wolf/bear/spider but change nothing mechanically between them" is lame. Big time. OK, they didn't wanna have MM and splatbook diving for transformations, I get that. Alright, fair. How about a few more statblocks rather than essentially one statblock with speed type and damage dice variants? Or maybe picking from some abilities when you transform, like being able to shoot a web, or grapple/trip on hit, or dashing/pouncing or something, to let you both adapt properly to the situation and have more flavor and fun while at it? You're supposed to be turning into an animal, not putting on different suits with otherwise largely similar practical applications.

So you have a Wild Shape that is both weak and flavorless. OK, that's not the end of the world. Use your imagination more for the flavor I guess, and use Wild Shape for whatever utility it provides, rather than as a combat effect. It's one feature after all, you'll get other stuff.

...except you won't. Nearly all of the druid's class features are tied to this weak and flavorless Wild Shape. You get very little else. And to add insult to injury, that little else you get comes as part of a Channel Divinity, or rather Channel Nature, package that includes Wild Shape too. So they share uses. Except, unlike the Channel Divinity effects we have now, the situation isn't "spend a use for an effect appropriate to the scenario". The situation is "use the effect all your class features build on, or sacrifice a use of that effect for something else". Which is daft.

Long story short, the druid's class features are almost all dropped into a very underwhelming concept and what little isn't part of that concept still isn't independent from it. That's not good design.

[JackPhoenix]

The key word there is "thematic." Other classes don't have mechanical punishments for failing to adhere to thematic points. If I play a Druid who hates nature, I'm certainly going against the entire thematic point of the class, but nothing tells the DM to force me into another class.

Don't they? What about a rogue using greatsword? A barbarian who wants to shoot a bow? A monk in armor? How about an illiterate wizard?

[Atranen]

Healing Blossoms will be the other default use of the channel nature since Wildshape is terrible for non-moon Druids and mediocre for Moon Druids, but it also sucks. "Wisdom Mod d4s" is on average 7.5 points of healing at 2nd level and a max of 15 points of healing at 20th level with a 22 Wisdom. Starting out this is competitive with Cure Wounds, so basically think of it as a free extra cure wounds that you can split. It's not bad especially recharging on a short rest, but it scales terribly compared to upcasting Cure Wounds and looks hilariously bad compared to Lay on Hands.


Healing blossoms actually struck me as quite strong, because of how you can split up the healing between targets. The right comparison is mass healing word, not cure wounds. It's weaker than MHW, but can still achieve the same 'bring multiple people up from 0' effect at a pretty low cost.

Speaking of healing, how do people find the Smite of Protection? I don't care for adding healing onto smites, because I don't like that Paladins are the 'smite' class (that's another story entirely; I'm not happy with this playtest nor the 5e Paladin). Straightforwardly you're now getting 3d8 damage + 3d8 healing out of a 2nd level slot, way better than a 2nd level cure wounds. But cure wounds is a bad spell, so maybe it's not too much?


The point is to get players into the fantasy of "I turn into a tiger" ASAP, and let them have fun describing their different forms.

Although, as I think about it, I feel like it would all work a lot better as follows.

1) Put in a line of "You choose the appearance of the wild form", they've already got stuff like that all over the place (Say, with the Artificer's Steel Defender feature), so they're clearly okay with not especially worrying about letting people fluff their own stuff.

2) Build a series of scaling Animal statblocks, both for Druids, AND For GMs who maybe want some Wolves that can challenge a higher level party to accompany The Lord Of The Hunt.


Animal statblocks are pretty simple, so it wouldn't be hard to expand out different Animals, especially since you could just slap that info Online and have people print out the statblock of their choice. Put in a sidebar about "For Wolves of higher CR, visit D&Dbeyond/reallybigdogs"

Big Cat: CR 1/2, CR 1, CR 2, CR 3, CR 4, CR 5
Wolf:CR 1/2, CR 1, CR 2, CR 3, CR 4, CR 5
Bear: CR 1, CR 2, CR 3, CR 4, CR 5


By current Moon Druid rules, the highest you can go with any animal form is CR 6 (1/3rd of 18).

Great idea, I endorse this approach.


...except you won't. Nearly all of the druid's class features are tied to this weak and flavorless Wild Shape. You get very little else. And to add insult to injury, that little else you get comes as part of Channel Divinity, or rather Channel Nature, package that includes Wild Shape too. So they share uses. Except, unlike the Channel Divinity effects we have now, the situation isn't "spend a use for an effect appropriate to the scenario". The situation is "use the effect all your class features build on, or sacrifice a use of that effect for something else". Which is daft.

This druid desperately needs some alternate class features, emphasizing spellcasting rather than wild shape as part of the Channel Nature abilities. Give them options to choose from, like the Cleric's holy order.

[Blackdrop]

The key word there is "thematic." Other classes don't have mechanical punishments for failing to adhere to thematic points. If I play a Druid who hates nature, I'm certainly going against the entire thematic point of the class, but nothing tells the DM to force me into another class.

I feel like it's worth pointing out that, in earlier editions, more of the classes used to have mechanical punishments for failing to adhere to thematic points, especially if we factor in Alignment restrictions. The "Druid that hates nature" idea is specifically called out in 3rd edition.

From the SRD:
"A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description)." (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm)

[jas61292]

Speaking of healing, how do people find the Smite of Protection? I don't care for adding healing onto smites, because I don't like that Paladins are the 'smite' class (that's another story entirely; I'm not happy with this playtest nor the 5e Paladin). Straightforwardly you're now getting 3d8 damage + 3d8 healing out of a 2nd level slot, way better than a 2nd level cure wounds. But cure wounds is a bad spell, so maybe it's not too much?

Unless it was changed since I downloaded the doc, it says "The chosen creature gains Temporary Hit Points equal to 1d8 plus the level of the Spell Slot used for the Divine Smite." That's +1 per level, not plus 1d8 per level. So the second level slot would give 1d8+2 temp HP. A neat little bonus, but nothing ridiculous. I like it a lot.

[BRC]

Great idea, I endorse this approach.


I did something similar in one of my games, it always bugs me that by the time you get "Polymorph" you're already one level away from the highest CR beast in the book (The T-rex) and so 90% of the time when you want to polymorph an ally in combat, they just turn into a T-Rex, so I made some thematically appropriate statblocks for my 2 PC's who could cast polymorph.


It was pretty easy to use the monster-building rules in the DMG to scale up an animal. I just picked the highest level appropriate Cat (The Tiger, I think), found where it's stats at on the "build a monster" chart, and adjusted everything up until it was roughly equivalent to a T-Rex in terms of combat power.

[Gignere]

Unless it was changed since I downloaded the doc, it says "The chosen creature gains Temporary Hit Points equal to 1d8 plus the level of the Spell Slot used for the Divine Smite." That's +1 per level, not plus 1d8 per level. So the second level slot would give 1d8+2 temp HP. A neat little bonus, but nothing ridiculous. I like it a lot.

It’s likely going to be different by Oath which is kind of cool that different oath’s smite are different.

Would they now change oath breaker to smite with necrotic damage!!

[Segev]

While it's certainly easier to do, it would piggyback off stuff they would already need to code in (DM's dropping in stat blocks, Polymorph, ect).


I instead feel like it's an attempt to encourage player creativity as regards fluff, since you can now have them turn into whatever animal or hybrid they want, rather than picking the best statblock available, and to make sure that the druid's "Chosen" statblock scales with level.

Also as a nerf.

I do agree that "Can turn into an abstracted Combat Form" is thematically distinct from "Can turn into A Bear".I agree with the last paragraph. I disagree that this "encourages creativity." If refluffing form is no big deal to the guy who wants to play a tiger every level, he could have his wolf stats be shaped like a tiger at lower levels and his T-Rex stats shaped like a huge tiger at higher levels. Or whatever. It is only a problem if the stats matter to the form, so by removing the stats and forms aligning, you're not opening any doors that wouldn't be there anyway.


As a response to several "Druid Nerf!" comments, it looks they might be taking the classic route of bringing something down to a more basic level so that the improvements can be added on later as (sub)class features.
Given that the Moon Druid, which is THE Wild Shape subclass, is printed here, we can see that this is not the case, or that they grossly undershot the mark if that was the intent.

[KorvinStarmast]

Paladin: a bit of a nerf to only use Divine Smite once per turn, but I can live with that IFF they restore the 1d8 bonus to the smites versus undead and fiends. They left that out.

Features are coming on-line later. Why? (Aura of protection at 7 rather than 6, fear immunity aura at 11 rather than 10). If the games only usually go to 11 ish, more stuff is being left out of play.
Divine sense nerf: pointless.
CD: OK, I see what they are trying to do.
Lay on hands use in stead of cleansing touch. OK, a nerf but probably livable.
Hate what they did to banishing smite just as I hate what they were doing to Banish. {censored}
Steed: "Disappearanceof the Steed. The steed disappears if it drops to 0 Hit Points, if you dismiss it as a Bonus Action, or if you die." I'd rather that last bit was left off. But I am not going to die on a hill over it.


Druids:
Wait, in wild shape you don't end up with a bonus HP pool?
"You continue to use yorr own HP and HD"
There's a nerf. :smallfurious:

[Marcloure]

DESIGN NOTE: WEAPON CHANGES
The upcoming article on Warrior classes will introduce new weapon options. Those options will differentiate weapons from each other more clearly. For example, the Shortsword (Simple) and the Scimitar (Martial) will have different roles to play in the game.

I hope this here delivers. D&D 5e weapons were very boring, I hope they gain some properties like 4e weapons had.

[Atranen]

Unless it was changed since I downloaded the doc, it says "The chosen creature gains Temporary Hit Points equal to 1d8 plus the level of the Spell Slot used for the Divine Smite." That's +1 per level, not plus 1d8 per level. So the second level slot would give 1d8+2 temp HP. A neat little bonus, but nothing ridiculous. I like it a lot.

You're right, I misread it. That's much less worrying.


Paladin: a bit of a nerf to only use Divine Smite once per turn, but I can live with that IFF they restore the 1d8 bonus to the smites versus undead and fiends. They left that out.

I missed this too, very dissapointing. It's not that big an effect and nice and thematic.


Features are coming on-line later. Why? (Aura of protection at 7 rather than 6, fear immunity aura at 11 rather than 10). If the games only usually go to 11 ish, more stuff is being left out of play.

I wonder if they decided to deal with the 'single classes are bland after level X' by spreading out the features (as opposed to adding new ones).

[Slingbow]

And a less than expert player is doomed because they didn't spend hours perusing the monster manual. So either they have to look it up during combat (aka kill the flow of the game) or never use the ability. I think that's one of the main reason druids are so seldom played.

A class feature that is so complicated that a newbie can't possibly use it is not a well designed feature.

And like I said. I also want more wild shape options like poison bites/sting, pounce, poison spray, grapple-bites, charge, ranged grapple attacks like shooting web or sticky mucus. And non-combat options like improved smell/hearing/seeing, camouflage. With that you could emulate the style of any animal without playing mother may I with the DM about delving into the monster manual.

It takes about 5 min to Google that poop on your phone.

[Oramac]

Jeez. I take the time to read it and watch the videos, and it's already at 3 pages! lmao. Anyway, here's my thoughts. There's a lot to unpack here. I'll put paladin stuff in a different post to break up the wall of text a bit.

General:

Spellcasting Still has the stupid prepare spells equal to the slot levels junk. Who is voting that they like this? I don't get it.

Druid:

Channel Nature: I'll come back to Wild Shape later. For the moment, I like how it has scaling uses not based on proficiency.

Nature's Aid: Interesting. I like that they're coming back to using ability scores for stuff instead of basing everything off proficiency. Not a huge fan of this Magic Action stuff, but as has been pointed out, if it interacts with Counterspell and the like, it's probably fine.

Might of the Land: Neat, but where's the line to turn your wild shape attacks into magical attacks for overcoming resistance and immunity? And no, the Moon Druid's elemental stuff doesn't count.

Tiny Critter: I like this. No more shenanigans turning into a gnat on a whim.

Alternating Forms: Again, I like it. More efficient and thematic. Some potential for shenanigans, but we'll see.

Wild Resurgence: Useful, but not particularly inspiring.

Beast Spells: Kinda negates some of the benefits of Combat Wild Shape, though it does come online significantly later.

Archdruid: Meh. Extremely meh. This isn't an 18th level feature. At best, this should be around 10th or 11th level with a different name. Maybe sooner. Bring back the 2014 PHB Archdruid.

Epic Boon: Well, it's less crappy. Spell Recall is pretty cool. A 25% chance to not use a spell slot, but only on 1st to 4th level spells. Still not powerful enough IMO, but better.
_________________________________________________

Combat Wild Shape: Kinda redundant with Beast Spells at later levels, but still cool and useful. Healing spells are Abjuration now, so this lets you heal while in form. Swift Transformation is weird though. You can Wild Shape as a bonus action or Magic Action. Does this mean that if you use a bonus action it is NOT a Magic Action? And therefore does not interact with things that apply to Magic Actions? (assuming, of course, that other things interact with Magic Actions to begin with)

Elemental Wild Shape: Cool. I like it. Still doesn't solve the non-magical attack issue for base druids, but effectively turning into a phoenix or thunder-dog is pretty cool.

Elemental Strike: Damage buff. Uninspiring, but certainly good.

Thousand Forms: Meh. This is where Unlimited Wild Shape should have gone.
________________________________________________

Wild Shape: Oh boy! Here we go. I'm keeping it short on purpose.

- It uses its own stat block, which I think is good. Not only that, it specifically uses your non-transformed hit points and hit dice. The Onion Druid is dead (in this UA at least). I'm on the fence about that part
- I like that you can choose the form and size for creatures that aren't normally that size. The example of a small sized elephant is cute and cuddly, but I can also imagine a large sized tarantula or even Rodents of Unusual Size.
- I'd like to see more attack/resistance/special feature options. Things like Web, poison, etc. but I can understand why that wouldn't be in the initial UA. More than likely they've already thought of that and have something in mind.
- It uses the spell level and wisdom modifier in many places, but still feels very weak. An absolute max of AC 16 with a 22 Wis from the Epic Boon is pretty crappy. Especially since you aren't an Onion any longer.

[Ionathus]

Paladin doesn't seem too egregious, though I'm disappointed that WotC seems to have listened to the vocal minority of Divine Smite whiners and put a bunch of pointless restrictions on the nova potential. If my party's paladin wants to blow a spellslot on every attack and then be tapped out by end of turn 2, that's their choice, and it's a terribly fun one in the right circumstances.1

Druid got hit hard. I'm glad they included some quality of life improvements -- the Alternating Forms feature is pretty nice for flexibility. My first 5e PC was a druid, and I can't tell you how many times I wildshaped and then 1 turn later went "ugh, that was pointless" because some minor aspect of the fight/encounter/roleplay changed. I also applaud the extra uses.

However, the tradeoff seems to be that they nerfed the actual Wild Shape options across the board. They're now so middle-of-the-road that I don't see any point in using them in combat - echoing what others have said, I would feel more like a bear-shaped dude than an actual bear with these rules. "Just flavor it yourself!" might make sense from a balance perspective, but "the amorphous Land Animal blob, it's whatever you want it to be" does not compel me at all.

There are some minor changes I like in here, but my most persistent criticism of OneD&D remains: sanding all the edges off doesn't make me want to play it more.

1. And before I'm accused of being a salty paladin player: I've never played one. But I've run campaigns for numerous paladins, and the supposed "abuse potential" everyone complains about is a total non-issue if you run varied, engaging encounters. All of the noise is being made by white-room armchair optimizers and yes, I will die on that hill thank you :smallbiggrin:.

[BRC]

I agree with the last paragraph. I disagree that this "encourages creativity." If refluffing form is no big deal to the guy who wants to play a tiger every level, he could have his wolf stats be shaped like a tiger at lower levels and his T-Rex stats shaped like a huge tiger at higher levels. Or whatever. It is only a problem if the stats matter to the form, so by removing the stats and forms aligning, you're not opening any doors that wouldn't be there anyway.


I didn't say they SUCCEEDED, just that it was part of the attempt. While I'm sure there are some people out there who think it's illegal to use a Polar Bear statblock to represent a Really Big Tiger or whatever, but I feel like both that, and the relative ease of scaling up a statblock using the rules in the DMG could be covered in a sidebar or whatever.

[Segev]

I hope this here delivers. D&D 5e weapons were very boring, I hope they gain some properties like 4e weapons had.

Nonsense! That just creates clutter and splat book diving for more weapon options! What we need is to tie weapon damage exclusively to the stat block of the class. Fighters do a d10+strength mod. Rogues do a d6+Dex Mod. Rangers can choose d8+Str or d8+Dex. Barbarians, of course, get d12+Str.

Then, they can creatively imagine those weapons they're wielding to be any weapon they like! That's how we maximize creativity AND balance!

[Oramac]

And the Paladin stuff.

Lay on Hands: Again with the Magic Actions. It's dumb, but I'll reserve judgement until we see a new Counterspell.

Spellcasting: Same thoughts as above for the Druid. Prepared spells equaling spell slots is dumb and I will not follow that rule at my table.

Divine Smite: Huge nerf. Not a fan. Part of the allure of a paladin is the ability to dish out heaps of damage at the cost of burning through resources absurdly fast. Oh but now I can smite with my fists? Yay..... It's cool, certainly, but not cool enough to offset the massive nerf. Also, the damage cap was sort of removed. It's still capped at 6d8 since you only get 5th level spell slots, but now you can get 6d8 against anything, not just fiends/undead/etc.

Fighting Style: Glad to still see this here.

Channel Divinity: I really like that Divine Sense is a part of this now, AND that it lasts 10 minutes and isn't affected by cover. Along with the subclass options, this feels pretty good.

Faithful Steed: Really cool and thematic. Though I foresee a lot more mounted combatant shenanigans.

Aura of Protection: Same as before. I like that they explicitly state that more than one aura doesn't stack.

Abjure Foes: The Dazed condition is actually pretty solid, so this is really good, IMO. Adding in fear on a failed save is even better, and great synergy.

Radiant Strikes: I suspect it not applying to unarmed strikes is just an oversight. Although, now that I think about it, Paladin 11 / Monk X would be a REALLY powerful multiclass with this if it applied to unarmed strikes (along with Divine Smite).

Aura of Courage: Good stuff.

Restoring Touch: Seems a little weird to make this require Touch when they explicitly state they want to allow ranged Smites (mentioned in the video). But whatever, it's fine.

Divine Conduit: See my post about the Druid. For an 18th level feature, this is hot garbage.

Epic Boon: Same as the druid again. It's better, but not great.
__________________________________________________ _______

Oath of Devotion

Oath Spells: I like the Free Casting part. It gives you more choices outside of To-Smite-or-Not-To-Smite. I'd probably make it once per short or long rest personally, but it's fine.

Sacred Weapon: It's a bonus action now. Good stuff.

Smite of Protection: I love the concept. Not so sure about the execution. But regardless, a solid basis to test from.

Aura of Devotion: Cool

Holy Nimbus: It's a "capstone". It's also significantly better than the 18th level feature, which is more a damnation of Divine Conduit than of this feature, but it highlights the problem with radiant sunlight.

[GooeyChewie]

Don't they? What about a rogue using greatsword? A barbarian who wants to shoot a bow? A monk in armor? How about an illiterate wizard?

They do not. Your first three examples are of players choosing to go against the mechanical points of classes/subclasses, not the thematic point of classes/subclasses. A Rogue Thief who never steals anything doesn't lose their subclass. A Barbarian Berserker who plays their Rage as a calm fury doesn't get shunted to Fighter. A player can make a Monk who has never meditated or set foot in a monastery without the PHB suggesting the DM takes away their features.

As for the illiterate wizard, each wizard specifically uses their own unique system of notation for their own spellbook, so the character would still be able to cast and copy spells normally. If the player chooses to have their Wizard not be able to read anything other than their own system of notation, then that's their choice, not a punishment.


I feel like it's worth pointing out that, in earlier editions, more of the classes used to have mechanical punishments for failing to adhere to thematic points, especially if we factor in Alignment restrictions. The "Druid that hates nature" idea is specifically called out in 3rd edition.

From the SRD:
"A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description)." (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm)

It's also worth pointing out that over time all of these other restrictions have been dropped over time. As of today, we've even dropped (or at least have a playtest proposal to drop) the Druid's inability to wear metal armor. The "Breaking Your Oath" sidebar is the last vestige of mechanically enforced roleplay, and I honestly don't expect it to survive past the playtest.

[Jervis]

Playtest starting again eh? TBH after recent events i’m not interested in paying for anything they make so dndone is just scaffolding for third party content for me at this point (assuming they actually do what they said they would and stick to CC, as unlikely as that is) but let’s take a look at it.

Spell lists are showing their age already. The entire Druid level 2 feature could be replaced by just slapping find familiar and a new spell called healing blossoms on their spell list otherwise.

Not sure how I feel about channel divinity and nature. Is that something we really needed to take from 3E? Channel nature gives some room for subclasses to expand on wildshape uses I guess so eh. The lowered uses at high levels are disappointing but partial recovery is usable.

Wildshape changes are expected and really it’s needed to make the ability usable on non moon Druids, and lets be honesty here it’s the only way to smooth out moon’s frankly atrociously bumpy power curve. I called this exact change before dndone was announced IIRC. I kinda hope black flag and other dnd++ hacks coming out steal this. That said making your creature type not change is freaking stupid. Oh and fittingly the bough RAW nu-moon Druid features do nothing because you loose the feature while wildshaped

Paladin is still a half caster, i would prefer partial casters be shifted over to warlock progression or something similar since it makes multiclassing less of a headache and separates resources but I knew that was a long shot.

Did lay on hands get a stealth nerf by removing the disease removal?

Divine smite is 1/turn now and mutually exclusive with casting a spell? That’s weird. Smites whole thing was less than fantastic slot per damage return but great action economy. I guess this is a nerf to nuke builds? I don’t like it, it means people with extra attack will have situations where they smite and then crit on their next attack. That’s a feel bad i’m not a fan of.

Divine Sense is a detect outsider, it’s fine. Really should work on fea and elementals tho imo but whatever. Probably going to be a subclass thing

Aura of Protection stayed, I am legitimately surprised.

Abjur Foes is weird but usable

Radiant strikes, fine, kinda wish that gave you the option to use necrotic instead. Same with smite honesty

Restoring touch healing fear is kinda superfluous but it might be useful once in a while

Free casting on oath spells once a day is nice for nu-devotion. Not much to say, good subclass

Not going over all the spells but find familiar having extra dimensional escape is weird unless I missed something about the spell. It seems kinda superfluous.

The specific actions are all still so much unnecessary clutter, especially now that we have leaks saying that it’s for VTT integration and automation purposes. The magic action showing up in rules text is annoying clutter.

Over all, very meh as to be expected from modern WotC

[Amnestic]

I gotta say it's a little weird that people frequently pointed out how stupid powerful wild shape is in 5e to create a bucket of hit points - especially on moon - and are not crying "nerf".

Like, if it was so dominating (especially in tier 1/2)...isn't a nerf expected?

They might've overshot, I guess, certainly you still want it to be useful, but crying "NERF" as if that's universally a bad thing when in context they're still full casters with a perfectly adequate, if now not particularly overpowered, animal form.

Like, idk, moon druid getting to do a shove (keyed off of their wisdom score, no less) prone on an enemy with your bonus action and then attacking twice for 1d8+Wismod+1d6 at level 10 seems pretty okay to me on a full caster. Is it as OP as moon used to be? No, probably not, but it's not as if the sky is falling. That's perfectly respectable martial damage.

[Trask]

A Rogue Thief who never steals anything doesn't lose their subclass. A Barbarian Berserker who plays their Rage as a calm fury doesn't get shunted to Fighter. A player can make a Monk who has never meditated or set foot in a monastery without the PHB suggesting the DM takes away their features.

Then we still have work to do... :smalltongue:


I gotta say it's a little weird that people frequently pointed out how stupid powerful wild shape is in 5e to create a bucket of hit points - especially on moon - and are not crying "nerf".

Like, if it was so dominating (especially in tier 1/2)...isn't a nerf expected?

Years and years of experienced gamers of all types will tell you that nerfs are always controversial, even when duly deserved and in fact good for the game. I'm not sure if this one is, I think they could have just made the scaling of the Moon Druid's forms lower to start (maybe CR 1/2) and called it a day, or the Treantmonk solution which is to have forms above a certain CR require the expenditure of a spell slot, but they wanted to go a whole different route. It seems okay to me mechanically, but I am disappointed somewhat. A lot of the flavor is gone.

And no, I don't see it as an advantage that I can now flavor the beast to be whatever I want. That feels too loosey goosey to me, I don't want it to be up to me all the time, because I know that a lot of times I'll just end up saying "I Wild Shape into a beast of the land" and not even bother to describe it because I just do it so much.

[Segev]

The trouble with this nerf is that it actively makes assuming Wild Shape bad for combat. Even as a Moon Druid. And it's very clear that combat is the INTENDED use of wild shape, what with tiny forms being pushed out to level 10.

When your AC drops and your hp stay the same on an already not-too-tanky class... they're going to be relying on barkskin to keep them alive, I think, and that clearly isn't going to be a super-viable option except when they have the drop on people. Moon Druids, at least, CAN cast that in their wild shaped form, assuming it's Abjuration.

Frankly, I don't think Wild Shape was broken before. Any flaws it had could be just as easily smoothed out with a few more beast options. Moon Druid is said to be too strong at low level and drop off at high level; this tells me their hp aren't scaling TOO badly.

[windgate]

People keep saying that the moon druid has been nerfed but Im not really seeing it. Yes, You are not even remotely as "tanky" as before but in terms of damage output, there might actually be a buff here.

Level 17 Moon Druid (20 Wisdom)

Land Form
Speed: 40
Multiattack (Action): 2 attacks of 1d8 +2d6 Elemental Damage
Bonus Action: Unarmed Strike (Strength Score= Wisdom Score).

You also have resistance to a chosen elemental damage type.
You can cast the new version of Barkskin for 11 Temp Hps every round.

Three attacks (with a damage bonus). Speed buff and damage resistance. Not too bad if you look at Wildshape as a damage dealer instead of as a tank. And the archdruid + Alternating forms essentially means you almost always have access to your animal form.

Edit: Alternating forms lets you pop out of wildshape to cast any spell you want and then return to it on your next turn. The original moon druid could not do that until really high levels.

[Amnestic]

When your AC drops and your hp stay the same on an already not-too-tanky class... they're going to be relying on barkskin to keep them alive, I think, and that clearly isn't going to be a super-viable option except when they have the drop on people. Moon Druids, at least, CAN cast that in their wild shaped form, assuming it's Abjuration.


Your AC was already dropping in wild shape. If this (https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/druid/wild-shape/) is accurate then typically 10+Wismod for your landform is going to end up being an AC buff over its current version and 8+Wismod is still going to be a slight buff over the current skyforms like Owl, Giant Owl, or Giant Vulture.

Yes, it takes away the (in my opinion, ridiculous) HP buffer that wild shape gives you currently. Maybe throwing a small chunk of temp HP on top when you wild shape could alleviate that, and perhaps that will come out in playtesting, but I'm absolutely unclear why you're focusing on AC when from what I can tell that's going to be higher, or at the very least equal to current wild shape options. Druids were already losing AC when they wild shape.




Any flaws it had could be just as easily smoothed out with a few more beast options. Moon Druid is said to be too strong at low level and drop off at high level; this tells me their hp aren't scaling TOO badly.

Not continuing their ridiculous scaling in tier 3/early tier 4 does not mean they "drop off". They're still really, really good, and then they become obscene once more at max.

[BRC]

Your AC was already dropping in wild shape. If this (https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/druid/wild-shape/) is accurate then typically 10+Wismod for your landform is going to end up being an AC buff over its current version and 8+Wismod is still going to be a slight buff over the current skyforms like Owl, Giant Owl, or Giant Vulture.

Yes, it takes away the (in my opinion, ridiculous) HP buffer that wild shape gives you currently. Maybe throwing a small chunk of temp HP on top when you wild shape could alleviate that, and perhaps that will come out in playtesting, but I'm absolutely unclear why you're focusing on AC when from what I can tell that's going to be higher, or at the very least equal to current wild shape options. Druids were already losing AC when they wild shape.


Mostly because the AC buffer meant that AC was irrelevant. You didn't mind losing some AC when you could hide behind your additional, Free Healthbar.

[Segev]

People keep saying that the moon druid has been nerfed but Im not really seeing it. Yes, You are not even remotely as "tanky" as before but in terms of damage output, there might actually be a buff here.

Level 17 Moon Druid (20 Wisdom)

Land Form
Speed: 40
Multiattack (Action): 2 attacks of 1d8 +2d6 Elemental Damage
Bonus Action: Unarmed Strike (Strength Score= Wisdom Score).

You also have resistance to a chosen elemental damage type.
You can cast the new version of Barkskin for 11 Temp Hps every round.

Three attacks (with a damage bonus). Speed buff and damage resistance. Not too bad if you look at Wildshape as a damage dealer instead of as a tank. And the archdruid + Alternating forms essentially means you almost always have access to your animal form.
That's maybe a buff at level 17. At level 18, unlimited wild shape comes in and says that's a nerf.

And you're ignoring that the level 2-10 Moon Druid is squishy as heck, now. Barkskin may as well be a class feature for how required it is to even have a hope of surviving.

[Ionathus]

All of the wildshape discourse here is missing the most important part IMO, which is that 10th level Moon Druids can no longer blow all their resources to turn into a Fire Tornado.

Straight-up the coolest class feature in the game and they replaced it with *checks notes* +1d6 elemental damage.

[KorvinStarmast]

If my party's paladin wants to blow a spellslot on every attack and then be tapped out by end of turn 2, that's their choice, and it's a terribly fun one in the right circumstances.1 Concur. "We hate paladins" form of nerf.

I prefer the Druid wild shape into MM beasts.

All of the noise is being made by white-room armchair optimizers and yes, I will die on that hill thank you :smallbiggrin:. I have your back. I just finished up a Paladin (retired at 17) and the number of times I used that smite twice in one turn I could count on one, or maybe two, hands over the course of levels 3-16.

Did lay on hands get a stealth nerf by removing the disease removal? Whoa, going back to check. That's a big deal.

Divine Sense is a detect outsider, it’s fine. Really should work on fea and elementals tho imo but whatever. Probably going to be a subclass thing.
Not detecting fey? Damn, I missed that.


Free casting on oath spells once a day is nice for nu-devotion. I like it.

{analysis}Thank you. I now understand what they were trying to do with the new wild shape.

Noted this change:

• D20 Test (rolling a 1 on a d20 no longer awards Inspiration, which is now called Heroic Advantage) Is this new or did I miss that last time?

[Nidgit]

Haven't read Paladin yet, I'm just here to complain about the Druid being so bad.

Wildshapes is basically useless before 5th level. It gives a speed boost, Shillelagh, and probably better Strength and Dexterity scores at the cost of an action, so combat applications are limited. You're no better at traversal, you have no extra HP and your AC goes down, and you can't can't become something too sneaky. It's basically just animal-themed Disguise Self. And a minor quibble: why do Aquatic Forms not get to sub Wis for Strength? You're telling me a dolphin or crocodile is more dextrous than strong? Things get slightly better over time and Alternating Forms is neat, but it's thoroughly mediocre through and through.

Imagine your player wants to infiltrate a fortress. You tell them they can't turn into a spider, a rat, or even a cat as they're all too tiny. A badger is still tiny and can't burrow anyway. They settle on a baboon, except they're no better at climbing than base form. The player is left wondering why they even decided to play a shapeshifter.

That said, one criticism I've seen here that doesn't stick is that all the Druid features relate to Wildshapes. That was already basically true- the only difference here is that those light Wildshapes improvements are spaced out on odd levels where the player is already getting new spells. It's just more apparent. 5e's base Druid gains no new abilities other than Wildshape forms between levels 2 and 18. Personally, I think staggering and spelling out those improvements is a nice touch (even if all the rest is terrible).

[windgate]

That's maybe a buff at level 17. At level 18, unlimited wild shape comes in and says that's a nerf.

And you're ignoring that the level 2-10 Moon Druid is squishy as heck, now. Barkskin may as well be a class feature for how required it is to even have a hope of surviving.

Okay.. lets compare them at Level 4.

The original moon druid is still capped at CR 1 until level 6, so lets use the Brown bear for it (assuming 14 Con and 18 Wisdom Druid Base form):


Brown Bear:
Hit Points 34 (+ the druid base form)
AC: 11
damage: 1d8 +4

Land Form:
Hit Points: 31
AC: 14
Action Attack: Damage: 1d8 +4
Bonus Action Attack: 1d4 + 4

(Barkskin will provide 6 Temp Hp per turn)
If you want to "tank", you can use Resistance while in Land form


yes, There is a definitive reduction in hit points here, but you deal more damage and avoid getting hit as much.


Edit: At sixth Level, the original version will accumulate even more hit points and might catch up in damage, but the new version now gets a selectable elemental damage resistance (reducing damage taken).

[Joe the Rat]

A couple of Paladin notes:

Smiting is Once Per Turn, and not on a turn when you have cast a spell.
Smite spells are spells. Essentially these spells are trading a chunk of most of the damage for alternate crappier damage types and rider effects.
However, they are a little soft on the wording for the finish on Divine Smite. "...and you can't use it on the same turn that you cast a spell." Unless I missed it, nothing in spellcasting keeps you from casting after smiting.

I think they need to clarify the exclusion principles involved here. I think the intent is Smiting and Casting is supposed to be either/or (not both) on a turn, but there's a little space here where it looks like you can cast a smite spell on subsequent hits.

I think we need to revisit what it means to "hit" again for the spell smites. Divine Smite specifically mentions attack rolls, so grapple-smite and shove-smite are no longer on the table. the spells don't specifically say attack roll, but I think that's what is intended.
(Personally I am amused at the idea of grabbing someone or shoving them, and having them burst into holy fire, but I don't think that's what they meant)

[Segev]

Okay.. lets compare them at Level 4.

The original moon druid is still capped at CR 1 until level 6, so lets use the Brown bear for it (assuming 14 Con and 18 Wisdom Druid Base form):


Brown Bear:
Hit Points 34 (+ the druid base form)
AC: 11
damage: 1d8 +4

Land Form:
Hit Points: 31
AC: 14
Action Attack: Damage: 1d8 +4
Bonus Action Attack: 1d4 + 4

(Barkskin will provide 6 Temp Hp per turn)
If you want to "tank", you can use Resistance while in Land form


yes, There is a definitive reduction in hit points here, but you deal more damage and avoid getting hit as much.


Edit: At sixth Level, the original version will accumulate even more hit points and might catch up in damage, but the new version now gets a selectable elemental damage resistance (reducing damage taken).
The "selectable elemental resistance" will make very little difference under most circumstances. Elemental damage isn't exactly something that is done in melee, which is where wild shaping druids want to be fighting.

And one of the flaws of this analysis is that we're treating the new barkskin as a buff to Wild Shape. It isn't. It's a buff to the druid. A druid gains the same benefit - or more, due to higher AC - in base form as he does in wild shape.

And it is fair, I think, to consider this without barkskin or with barkskin available to the old wild shaping circle of the moon druid, because there is no inherent reason why the two changes must be linked. But, again, the big problem is that the moon druid is squishier in wild shape form than he is in normal form, making it a weaksauce rage effect, in the new system.

[skyth]

Assuming 18 Wis at level 4 might be pushing it a bit.

[Amechra]

I think it's instructive to compare this take on Wild Shape to how Druids work in World of Warcraft (where this kind of "pick a template" vision of shapeshifting works really well) — the difference is that WoW has a very strong vision of what your different forms are supposed to do. You have your basic "human" form (which can cast spells), a melee damage "cat" form, a ranged damage "moonkin" form, a tank "bear" form, and a speedy travel "stag" form that can be further specialized for what environment you're traveling through. Mechanically, that Druid is built as a flexible "back-up" class — a Druid might not be your first choice for ranged damage or tanking or whatever, but they're a credible second choice for any of those roles, and can swap between them on the fly.

What is OneD&D's Druid supposed to do with Wild Shape, mechanically speaking? What are they supposed to be able to accomplish that they can only accomplish by turning into a tiger (or whatever)?

[Joe the Rat]

Did someone already note that Moon Druids can heal in wildshape?
Cure Wounds is now an Abjuration, and they can cast abjurations while 'shaped starting at 3.

I hope that's not supposed to be a replacement for buffer hp.

[animorte]

All of the noise is being made by white-room armchair optimizers and yes, I will die on that hill thank you :smallbiggrin:.

I have your back.
Same here. If nothing else, literally because an egregious amount of arguments are based on white-room justification (or at the very least, hasty generalizations).

[PhoenixPhyre]

I have your back. I just finished up a Paladin (retired at 17) and the number of times I used that smite twice in one turn I could count on one, or maybe two, hands over the course of levels 3-16.
.

<snark>that's because you only rarely hit twice in a turn </snark>

[skyth]

Did someone already note that Moon Druids can heal in wildshape?
Cure Wounds is now an Abjuration, and they can cast abjurations while 'shaped starting at 3.

I hope that's not supposed to be a replacement for buffer hp.

Moon Druids have always been able to use spell slots to heal in 5E while in wildshaped form.

[Nidgit]

Okay, Paladin seems mostly ok. They certainly nerfed the Paladin's nova ability and have basically killed the Sorcadin, but the added flexibility for unarmed/ranged Smites and 5th level Smites are certainly overdue and a bit of a consolation prize. Lay On Hands no longer curing disease is fine; disease is usually more of a plot point and LOH basically skipped that. However, Restoring Touch is definitely a downgrade to Cleansing Touch, which was a neat if frequently overlooked feature. The capstone is certainly less powerful but also available way earlier, which feels like a fair tradeoff.

Overall, a little less exciting but still good enough to be fun.

[windgate]

The "selectable elemental resistance" will make very little difference under most circumstances. Elemental damage isn't exactly something that is done in melee, which is where wild shaping druids want to be fighting.

And one of the flaws of this analysis is that we're treating the new barkskin as a buff to Wild Shape. It isn't. It's a buff to the druid. A druid gains the same benefit - or more, due to higher AC - in base form as he does in wild shape.

And it is fair, I think, to consider this without barkskin or with barkskin available to the old wild shaping circle of the moon druid, because there is no inherent reason why the two changes must be linked. But, again, the big problem is that the moon druid is squishier in wild shape form than he is in normal form, making it a weaksauce rage effect, in the new system.

This may be a hot take, but I believe that low level (Tier 1) moon druids are frankly overpowered and needed a nerf (for tier 1 play). The current version effectively doubles your hitpoints twice per short rest as a bonus action and the form's damage (in tier 1) is comparable to the damage other classes without them spending limited resources. At that tier of play, Its basically every single fight.

The rest of the game seems to be built around PC's having higher damage and Monsters having higher hitpoints. Balancing gets difficult when you have one subclass focused on doing the opposite of everyone else.

True, Barkskin is a buff to the druid in general (not just the moon druid). But logically if you are planning to be the "tank" it would be cast on yourself. If not, you would just cast a healing spell on yourself while in form.

[Psyren]

I haven't seen a lot of commentary on the devblog videos accompanying the document: Druid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPO2oCnmPPA) and Paladin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOW5YjVqk8U) Not only are they full of useful context for evaluating the material, Crawford will occasionally drop a juicy tidbit related to the future of the playtest - for example, his revelation towards the end of the Paladin video that Necromancer Wizard will be showing up in the playtest. This confirms not only that Wizard subclasses will still be individual spell schools, but that one of the PHB Wizard's four will be Necromancy.

[KorvinStarmast]

A couple of Paladin notes:

Smiting is Once Per Turn, and not on a turn when you have cast a spell.
Smite spells are spells. Essentially these spells are trading a chunk of most of the damage for alternate crappier damage types and rider effects.
However, they are a little soft on the wording for the finish on Divine Smite. "...and you can't use it on the same turn that you cast a spell." Unless I missed it, nothing in spellcasting keeps you from casting after smiting. And the new smite spells are all bonus actions. :smallbiggrin:


I think they need to clarify the exclusion principles involved here. I think the intent is Smiting and Casting is supposed to be either/or (not both) on a turn, but there's a little space here where it looks like you can cast a smite spell on subsequent hits. Yes, clarity would be good.

(Personally I am amused at the idea of grabbing someone or shoving them, and having them burst into holy fire, but I don't think that's what they meant) I think it's a great idea. :smallbiggrin:


What is OneD&D's Druid supposed to do with Wild Shape, mechanically speaking? What are they supposed to be able to accomplish that they can only accomplish by turning into a tiger (or whatever)? Cough up hair balls, just as a tabaxi does.

<snark>that's because you only rarely hit twice in a turn </snark> Too darned true.

[Jervis]

I haven't seen a lot of commentary on the devblog videos accompanying the document: Druid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPO2oCnmPPA) and Paladin (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOW5YjVqk8U) Not only are they full of useful context for evaluating the material, Crawford will occasionally drop a juicy tidbit related to the future of the playtest - for example, his revelation towards the end of the Paladin video that Necromancer Wizard will be showing up in the playtest. This confirms not only that Wizard subclasses will still be individual spell schools, but that one of the PHB Wizard's four will be Necromancy.

That’s a very… strange decision. Necromancy was one of the worst and making it the iconic for Wizard is just plan weird unless they’re taking the class in a very different direction. School specific subclasses were a mistake for wizard imo, school specialization should be a class feature instead of a whole subclass.

[Willie the Duck]

Initial thoughts:
Just in general (with this UA and the previous) I like the removal of the 'semi-obvious exploit' and 'strictly-best-options' things like one-handed-quarterstaff+shield+PAM, reaction-SA on Rogue, owl familiar flyby-spell-delivery-service, bonus-action spell and massive smiting being a power-nova option for paladins, and so on. I was disappointed that the rogue didn't get some commensurate boost to keep them at the same relative level; I'm not sure if I think Find Familiar needs any such thing (leaning towards no). Paladin smite, it really depends on if a goal for OneD&D is a slight power degradation for everyone or not (Moon druid clearly has, now tell me about Shepherd druids, Twilight clerics, high-OP wizards, etc.).

Druid no longer has the RP-dictation armor limitation, but by default probably will be using padded/leather/studded*. Seems like a good compromise.Druid starting equipment includes sickle and shield, but then staff as spell focus. For this starting druid, mistletoe on a necklace or similar focus would make more sense**. Druid introduction focuses strongly on the ecological balance/harmony-with-nature angle of the druid. I know that's the dominant line since 2e (with roots going earlier), but I'll advocate for a bit more of the 'scary robed figures in the woods'/'nature, red of tooth and claw' interpretation of druids to get put back into the intro text.
*which we haven't seen a new version clarifying it as metallic by default
**side note: I will keep advocating for them to spend significant time looking at things like whether non-clerics should get a 'holy symbol on one's shield option, whether staff foci can double as weapon-staves, and other things which really change how easy it is to play class X (especially as a front-liner) based on your DM's rulings. This would not be hard to make clear and cohesive.

Wild Shape has clearly been changed -- both in mechanics and in clear role. No more searching through the beast entries for the optimal choice, nor turning into a beast predominantly as a source of extra HP. Regarding the former, I am of two minds. On one hand, I do like the idea of changing shape to gain specific movement types, perception benefits, infiltration methods, and so on; on the other hand, what I found happened a lot more was either 1) finding the best land- and areal- combat options and spamming them like crazy, or 2) not playing a druid at all (particularly newbies, who might like druids on a conceptual/thematic level), since you were effectively playing the entire druid spell list up to their max casting level and the entire MM beast section up to their CR/motility level. Regarding the latter, the lack of extra HP and low-ish AC is going to be a real issue for wild-shape combat (the moon druid can cast heals in wild shape, but this runs into the fundamental crumminess of in-combat healing). I'm not 100% sure what I think this updated Moon Druid is supposed to be for or about -- their subclass abilities are still combat-centric, but they are no longer a frontliner/tank/damage-soak. What are you intended to do with them (that you wouldn't with another druid)?

I will advocate in my feedback that they step back and reexamine what they want out of wildshape (Moon and non-Moon). What is the goal, premise, intended use, and so on? It has changed with every edition, and can be almost anything, but it really should have an intended playstyle linked to it (from which PCs are free to deviate), rather than just existing because it existed before. After that, for non-moon druid wildshape, I'll advocate for being able to select from a list of options (like spiders climbing or owls seeing at night) -- which would allow people to use wildshape for non-combat abilities and give each form selection some reason for being, but without having to play the whole MM/worry about new beasts showing up in new books (especially 3pp). For the Moon druid I will advocate that they -- assuming they want them to stay a melee characters -- ought get a set number of temporary HP, an AC boost, or both (and if not, give them a clear new reason for being and the powers to support them). I will also be reminding them that many people aren't married to druids as wildshapers (or pet-summoners, for that matter) and to keep the alternate uses for channel nature coming with the other druid archetypes.

Wild Companion has moved the 'use a wildshape to get a familiar for an hour' ability from Tasha's to the PHB. I... don't really like Find Familiar as a spell to begin with (feeling that it is a class feature disguised as a spell), but if anyone should have it, a druid should.

Healing Blossoms is flavorful as can be. I don't like it being set power level x prime-attribute-modifier (making not going for 20 in the stat ASAP and instead broadening your character a double-jeopardy), I thought we were moving away from that (bard inspirations being a prime example). Also, non-bonus action healing action that only heals 1-5D4 is pretty tame, especially if you don't get 2 uses per SR.

Upper Level features: Other than turning into a mouse at 11th being way too late (and circumventing an earlier-level abuse I can't fathom), I don't seen anything here too notable. Again, they seem to have tamped down on earth-shattering high-level class features, and as long as they are consistent in that approach, it is fine (especially for spellcasters, who will stick with the class for each new level of spells).

Paladin now has more sidebar on oathbreaking (than I remember in 2014 PHB, I will have to check), but still leaves it mostly DM-dependent. This is fine in and of itself, but I feel it only makes sense for someone who has the context of D&D of yester-year. I can only imagine a person absolutely new to D&D with the 2024 book reading something like this and having no idea as to whether it is something that is supposed to be a big feature of playing a paladin. Paladin starting equipment is sword and shield, but then non-emblem holy symbol. I thought the purpose of default equipment was at least partially supposed to be a default for people new to the game to not make beginner's mistakes. Level one includes spellcasting, and is thus not just like a fighter level 1, but worse. I approve.

Smite: smiting is now no longer melee-only (also, fighting style options include archery). I like the expansion of the notion of what paladinhood means. Smiting now is also once/round, and not in a round where spells were cast. They really are reigning in action-economy exploits. Personally I wouldn't have minded excluding casting and for bonus-action and reaction attacks, but still getting to smite 2/round for paladins with multiattack (and I guess a third for dual-wielders, since that's now not a bonus action), but stand behind the general reasoning. Still, if Nova-ing or sorcadins/pallocks* was part of the reason, I'd have loved them to have put limits like not pact magic slots or only spell slots up to max-paladin-spell casting or such.
[SIZE=1]*sidebars indicate that they finally are thinking about multiclass interactions (or at least communicating that they are).

Smite spells are now bonus action, usable after to-hit, and non-concentration. I imagine people actually memorizing and using them with this change (previously I had never seen them except with Forge Clerics or others who had them auto-memorized, and rarely even then).

Aura of protection is now level 7. No strong opinion, but I know several people who considered L6 the time to duck out of paladin might change their minds now (and then level 8 and a a feat is just one more level...).

High level: No change since 2014 -- there are lots of little bits and bobs which aren't horrible, but often won't keep people in the class (especially with the great synergy with sorcerers or warlocks). After Aura of Protection some people stick to L8 for the feat, others to L11 for +1d8/attack, but then there's a long gulf between that and a 30' Aura where the only thing keeping them in paladin is how long it will take to get up to L3+ spells in some other class (and L4&5 paladin spells don't seem to keep people there). I think something really useful in the 13-16 range would have been a good idea (also just a real re-think on what levels 6+ should look like for the classes who get one extra-attack at 5, but no more afterwards. It seems like territory not terribly well thought-out in 2013 that isn't really being re-examined).

Other: Spells I've already mentioned I like the new smites, and would rather find familiar not be a spell in the first place (but if it is, this version is fine). No other basic rules I noticed a major change upon.

All-in-all, not seriously disappointed. Exploits removed, power levels a little brought down (which seems to be universal), and that being true for 2014 heavy-hitter Moon Druid. If Wizards come out and we see that they too have had their worst excesses reigned in, I'll just assume that OneD&D is just a little bit lower-power and that's fine. I will put in my responses that they really should look at wildshape in general and post-initial-aura paladins and decide what exactly they think their design goal is, and then take another crack at it.

[Segev]

This may be a hot take, but I believe that low level (Tier 1) moon druids are frankly overpowered and needed a nerf (for tier 1 play). The current version effectively doubles your hitpoints twice per short rest as a bonus action and the form's damage (in tier 1) is comparable to the damage other classes without them spending limited resources. At that tier of play, Its basically every single fight.

The rest of the game seems to be built around PC's having higher damage and Monsters having higher hitpoints. Balancing gets difficult when you have one subclass focused on doing the opposite of everyone else.

True, Barkskin is a buff to the druid in general (not just the moon druid). But logically if you are planning to be the "tank" it would be cast on yourself. If not, you would just cast a healing spell on yourself while in form.

There is no reason to use Wild Shape in the UA form. You actively become less tanky, and don't appreciably increase damage until level 5, when you gain multiattack.

The moon druid has, in my experience as a DM, never been a problem in tier 1. It served decently as a tank, but it didn't "win" encounters in ways that outshone anybody else. I haven't run it at tier 2 or higher, but from what I hear, it becomes steadily less viable. Nerfing it at all tiers like this doesn't make it more usable at tier 2+.

Wild Shape is worthless until level 7 in this construction, and most of the druid features are focused on it.

[windgate]

I don't like the wild companion feature either. When I picture a druids animal companion, I visualized the creature from the original PHB Ranger Beastmaster. That might be too strong (but they are testing the new Ranger right now anyways...) It really needs to be something more combat substantial than a wizard's familiar.

[Psyren]

Hey did anyone notice Druids can wear metal now? They lost medium armor proficiency though.


That’s a very… strange decision. Necromancy was one of the worst and making it the iconic for Wizard is just plan weird unless they’re taking the class in a very different direction. School specific subclasses were a mistake for wizard imo, school specialization should be a class feature instead of a whole subclass.

I don't think he meant that Necromancer would be the basic/iconic subclass for the Wizard - remember, we're getting all four subclasses for every PHB base class before the playtest ends. All he said was that it would show up in a future packet. I have no doubt that Evoker will still be the basic Wizard.

[KorvinStarmast]

Does the otherworldly steed disappear in an anti magic field?
The other worldly familiar?
How do I get a flying steed?

[Oramac]

Druid Problems!

Paladin Problems!

Ok, we've all found a lot of problems. But what are the solutions? Whining doesn't do any good. If WOTC came to you and said, "Cool, how do you think we should fix this?" how would you respond?

================================================== ================================================== =======================

Here's mine:

Wild Shape:
- gain THP on shifting
- ensure attacks are magical for overcoming resistance/immunity
- a slight AC buff
- more "animal-like" abilities. things like web, grapple, poisons, throwing poo as a monkey, whatever. Something flavorful.

Smite:
- Revert the stupid once per turn thing. I don't like the "can't cast a spell" thing, but I could live with it.
- "Fixing" Sorcadin multiclass issues is easy: specify that Smite must only use a PALADIN SPELL SLOT.

[JackPhoenix]

Okay.. lets compare them at Level 4.

The original moon druid is still capped at CR 1 until level 6, so lets use the Brown bear for it (assuming 14 Con and 18 Wisdom Druid Base form):


Brown Bear:
Hit Points 34 (+ the druid base form)
AC: 11
damage: 1d8 +4

Land Form:
Hit Points: 31
AC: 14
Action Attack: Damage: 1d8 +4
Bonus Action Attack: 1d4 + 4

(Barkskin will provide 6 Temp Hp per turn)
If you want to "tank", you can use Resistance while in Land form


yes, There is a definitive reduction in hit points here, but you deal more damage and avoid getting hit as much.


Edit: At sixth Level, the original version will accumulate even more hit points and might catch up in damage, but the new version now gets a selectable elemental damage resistance (reducing damage taken).

Of course you deal more damage if you don't use brown bear's multiattack and 2d6+4 claws. And as for Barkskin, if you're using that, the brown bear has AC 16, and with +3 Con from the bear (and better AC), you're more likely to keep it than the AC 14, Con 14 druid.

So you have less hit points (you may get some temp HP, but hard to say how long you'll get to enjoy that), worse AC, and worse damage. And you're level 4, so instead of raising Wis, the bear druid could've taken a feat and enjoyed its benefits in bear form.

[windgate]

There is no reason to use Wild Shape in the UA form. You actively become less tanky, and don't appreciably increase damage until level 5, when you gain multiattack.



Damage DOES increase. You are still neglecting the bonus action attack for the new moon druid (acquired as the first feature of the revised subclass).

Other 3rd Level UA wildshape Benefits:
* 40 speed (as opposed to the typical 30)
* Dark Vision (granted lots of races have this already...)
* Advantage on perception checks

:
As for non-moon druid, they aren't going to be using wildshape at low levels in combat regardless of level.

[Psyren]

Wild Shape:
- gain THP on shifting
- ensure attacks are magical for overcoming resistance/immunity
- a slight AC buff
- more "animal-like" abilities. things like web, grapple, poisons, throwing poo as a monkey, whatever. Something flavorful.

I agree with these. Also let us keep our racials, at least some of them. If VTTs are the concern, let the DM have final say which ones you get to keep, like they do now.


- "Fixing" Sorcadin multiclass issues is easy: specify that Smite must only use a PALADIN SPELL SLOT.

The whole point of 5e multiclassing though is that you don't have to keep track of which slots came from where (other than pact slots.) Spells maybe, but not slots.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Damage DOES increase. You are still neglecting the bonus action attack for the new moon druid (acquired as the first feature of the revised subclass).

Other 3rd Level UA wildshape Benefits:
* 40 speed (as opposed to the typical 30)
* Dark Vision (granted lots of races have this already...)
* Advantage on perception checks

:
As for non-moon druid, they aren't going to be using wildshape at low levels in combat regardless of level.

Except the Brown Bear gets two attacks by default...and they're both beefier than that.

Brown Bear:
1d8 + 4 / 2d6 + 4, bonus action left open

New form:
1d8 + 4 / 1d4 + 4, bonus action consumed.

And it gets worse from there.

[ZRN]

Nonsense! That just creates clutter and splat book diving for more weapon options! What we need is to tie weapon damage exclusively to the stat block of the class. Fighters do a d10+strength mod. Rogues do a d6+Dex Mod. Rangers can choose d8+Str or d8+Dex. Barbarians, of course, get d12+Str.

Then, they can creatively imagine those weapons they're wielding to be any weapon they like! That's how we maximize creativity AND balance!

This is what DungeonWorld (and I'm sure other games) basically does - weapons have special traits but the base damage depends on your class. It's actually pretty cool that your fighter is so badass she can kill a guy with a rusty spoon! You can largely do the same in 5e with a high-level monk (and a compliant DM) since common items can count as simple weapons and thus as monk weapons.

[windgate]

Edit: @PhoenixPhyre, @Segev, @JackPhoenix



Of course you deal more damage if you don't use brown bear's multiattack and 2d6+4 claws. And as for Barkskin, if you're using that, the brown bear has AC 16, and with +3 Con from the bear (and better AC), you're more likely to keep it than the AC 14, Con 14 druid.

So you have less hit points (you may get some temp HP, but hard to say how long you'll get to enjoy that), worse AC, and worse damage. And you're level 4, so instead of raising Wis, the bear druid could've taken a feat and enjoyed its benefits in bear form.

Okay, I have to concede I was wrong on a major element. When I did the assessment, I was somehow under the impression the original druid was locked out of multi-attack until later levels. It is not, and it dratcically scales the damage up for the moon druid in the Pre-Level 5 comparison.


Now I am looking at this with even more bewilderment. It sounds like people are complaining that that tier 1 moon druid is no longer almost equal to TWO fighter PC's of the same level.....

[KorvinStarmast]

Wild Shape:
- gain THP on shifting
OK. 5 per Druid level? What number?

- more "animal-like" abilities. things like web, grapple, poisons, throwing poo as a monkey, whatever. Something flavorful. Gotta have the Giant Ape throwing monkey poo, yes!

- "Fixing" Sorcadin multiclass issues is easy: specify that Smite must only use a PALADIN SPELL SLOT. Actually, that's a divine spell slot, since all we have is Arcane, Primal, Divine.

1ST LEVEL: LAY ON HANDS
Your blessed touch can heal wounds. You have a pool of healing power that replenishes when you take a Long Rest. With that pool, you can restore a total number of Hit Points equal to five times your Paladin level. As a Magic action, you can touch a creature (which could be yourself) and draw power from the pool of healing to restore a number of Hit Points to that creature, up to the maximum amount remaining in the pool. In addition, you can expend 5 Hit Points from
the pool of healing to remove the Poisoned condition from the creature, rather than using those points to restore Hit Points.
Grr, bring back the remove disease!
And does this now NOT work in an anti magic field?
Grrrrrrrr. :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfu rious:

[Zevox]

Going over the Paladin since it's one of my favorite classes, my main reaction is disappointment.

So, Divine Smite is now 1/turn, and can't be used in the same turn as a spell is cast, huge boo. Also loses the +1d8 to undead and fiends, double boo. Divine Sense apparently is a use of Channel Divinity now, instead of its own thing? Weird, and triple boo. Aura of Protection delayed to level 7, quadruple boo (6 already feels a bit late for it to me - although I fully understand why they don't want it as early as it was in 3.5, mind you).

On the up side, they get cantrips, which are nice I guess. Divine Smite now works with ranged weapons or unarmed attacks, which is nice I guess. Abjure Foes is kind of neat. And I do like the direction they're going with Find Steed, at least in theory - as someone using that right now, my main issue with it has been that the steed's stats are static, so as I'm getting up higher in levels, it's dying to a stiff breeze if caught in any AoE. Giving it a way to scale its health is important. Although I don't know that spell level is the best way to do that, when the class takes a long time to gain those, and it's only currently offering a base of 5 + 10 hp per level. That feels like too little.

So... yeah, for one of my favorite classes, what they to have to offer that I'm a bit interested in is mostly Abjure Foes and better Find Steed. My thinking that I'm better off poaching the few good changes I see from One D&D into my 5E games than actually using One D&D continues to feel justified.

Time to see if the Druid is any better off, I guess.

[Oramac]

OK. 5 per Druid level? What number?

IDK. Five per level is probably too much. That'd be 100 THP at 20th level. I think this is one place where proficiency bonus would actually work really well. Say, gain THP equal to twice your proficiency bonus?


Gotta have the Giant Ape throwing monkey poo, yes!

Well, yea!


Actually, that's a divine spell slot, since all we have is Arcane, Primal, Divine.

Ok, works for me. You gotta use a divine slot instead of an arcane slot (which I assume sorcs would use). It would get a little wonky with a Divine Soul Sorc, though.

My point is, there are better ways to nerf the multiclass without nerfing the class.

[Segev]

Damage DOES increase. You are still neglecting the bonus action attack for the new moon druid (acquired as the first feature of the revised subclass).

Other 3rd Level UA wildshape Benefits:
* 40 speed (as opposed to the typical 30)
* Dark Vision (granted lots of races have this already...)
* Advantage on perception checks
So, like I said, a weak Barbarian Rage, in that it's some minor boons, one of which is likely not even something they lack outside of wild shape. The form is irrelevant, too, except to make sure you keep hands, so play an ape.


As for non-moon druid, they aren't going to be using wildshape at low levels in combat regardless of level.Or at all, because they have no use for it. Unless, I guess, to reach a high shelf or to avoid having to squeeze through a narrow tunnel. Neither of which comes up much in most games I've played.

[Psyren]

Except the Brown Bear gets two attacks by default...and they're both beefier than that.

Brown Bear:
1d8 + 4 / 2d6 + 4, bonus action left open

New form:
1d8 + 3 / 1d4 + 3, bonus action consumed.

And it gets worse from there.

What do you mean "worse?" The latter is far more sensible for a level 3 character, especially on a full caster class that can do this while dumping its physical stats completely. Moreover, you can do the unarmed strike first for a shove prone.

And then you compare them at level 6:

Giant Elk: 4d6+4 assuming charge, bonus action open; 2d6+4 if no charge
Sabre-Toothed Tiger: 1d10+5 + 2d6 + 5 assuming pounce, bonus action consumed; just 2d6+5 if no pounce
Land Beast: 1d8+4+1d8+4+1d4+4, unconditional, bonus action consumed

I'd say The new Land Beast keeps up with the CR 2 forms decently well. And once you hit CR 3 (level 9), it looks more like:

Giant Scorpion: 1d8+2 + 1d8 + 2 + 1d10+2, but you only have +4 to hit on each attack at this level, and maybe you get really lucky on the DC 12 Con save for an extra 4d10 poison once in a while, and that's likely your best option. Vs:

Land Beast: 1d8+5+1d8+5+1d4+5, with +9 to hit on each attack.

The 1DnD druid scales much better, especially without book diving.

[Lyracian]

Overall I quite like the document.

The extra ability boost makes Epic Boom seem more Epic (not that may games get that far)
Channel is clearly the key ability for this Class Group.

I like what they have done with Find Steed letting you get your Pegasus at higher levels. Overall the Paladin seems about the same. They have pushed back getting Aura's but you get a weaker Holy Nimbus as a Bonus action at 14 and some other buffs. Not sure why Divine Health disappeared?

Moon Druid took a hit. Not sure how much other Druids used Wild Shape? No medium armour removes the odd rule about not wearing metal. I like Healing Blossoms and Wild Companion. When you get to Level 13 Wild Shape will last six hours, most of an "adventuring day" so I like Alternating Forms. Not sure why being a Tiny Critter is restricted to ten minutes though. Clearly they do not want you scouting the dungeon...

[Segev]

Moon Druid took a hit. Not sure how much other Druids used Wild Shape? (...) Not sure why being a Tiny Critter is restricted to ten minutes though. Clearly they do not want you scouting the dungeon...

I play a Circle of the Land (Underdark) druid who I could not play under the rules in this UA. He uses his wild shape to turn into tiny things all the time. Wild shape is also one of the few tools he has to survive when he gets dogpiled, because he only has a 10 constitution. And I try to keep him off the front lines. He's never trying to tank.

The fact that there's zero difference between playing a spider, a snake, a horse, a wolf, a tiger, or a bear under this new system is just plain disgusting to me. Literally, I tend to curl my lips in disgust when I think about it.

[Psyren]

I don't see the big problem with the Tiny thing. Just scout as a Small animal instead, there are plenty of those, and you can still hide.

You can even be a Small version of a Medium animal without arousing suspicion I'd say.

[Talij]

My problem with Druid isn't that wildshape got hit with the nerf bat. It needed that. The problem is that wildshape has become at the same time the biggest core feature for druids and also one that has almost no usefulness.

Compare any of the new wildshape options to a druid wearing studded leather with a shield and using a cantrips like primal savagery or even produce flame. I'd take the human form every time in combat unless you're a high level moon druid. Even then I'd call it a toss up. Out of combat you effectively get to use your wisdom score for stealth checks and that's it. No tiny creatures til level 11 means most out of combat utility is limited too.

So what is this feature that the class is effectively built around for? And if you're arguing it shouldn't be used in combat for non moon druids, then you're basically saying half the class features you get are ribbon features.

Also I understand the simplifying that 3 stat blocks provide, but it's at the expense of a LOT of variety and utility. If you want to limit the options, fine, but let us have more flavor than climb, swim, or fly

[Zevox]

So, Druid... is it just me, or does it feel like all Druids are Moon Druids now? So many of the things they get as they level up are just "wild shape does a new thing now." And here I thought they were trying to provide options for Druids that don't use Wild Shape much. Apparently those Druids get Find Familiar and a minor healing ability, and a whole lot of levels where all they care about is the spells.

Also, Wild Shape being generic stat blocks is lame. While they're good for ease of use, they lose a lot of flavor and feel to actually having specific stats for the animal you're turning into, IMO. Also, it means no more turning into an actual Elemental for Moon Druids, which is very lame. And while I kind of get Wild Shape no longer being free temp hp, I wonder if that might actually make the ability so much less useful that people just no longer want to use it, since generally speaking outside of Wild Shape Druids are not terribly durable, and this isn't giving them a lot of AC in Wild Shape in exchange for the no temp hp thing. I know that alone would kill the feature for my party's current Land Druid, who has a Con score of 10, and it's not like he's getting tons of use out of it as-is, since we're level 10 and he's not a Moon Druid.

Definitely an underwhelming one to me here. They've given me precious little that seems at all exciting, and this didn't add much, if anything, to it.

[Segev]

I don't see the big problem with the Tiny thing. Just scout as a Small animal instead, there are plenty of those, and you can still hide.

You can even be a Small version of a Medium animal without arousing suspicion I'd say.

Do you have any idea how big a Small creature is? It's not a housecat. That's Tiny. It's a capybara. It's a monkey. It's a dog whose back comes up to your waist.

Besides, the only possible benefit of wild shaping into a small creature to scout is that you now add your Wisdom modifier rather than your normal Dex modifier to the stealth roll. Well, I suppose the fact that you can look like anything you want might help, but I doubt animals that big fail to be chased out of places if seen. It certainly doesn't offer any useful means to get around places you otherwise couldn't. Teh climb speed isn't even going to help much; it's monkey-like climbing, not spider climbing (no spider climb feature), so no using ceilings and if you DON'T have hands, you're going to risk the DM questioning if you can actually climb that.

Did they change the gawdawful movement rules from the last UA, or do you have to choose which speed you're using on any given round, too, still? Not that it's much better with the 5e rules, since it's only going to let you climb things harder than a ladder if you have hands or the DM is feeling generous.


In the end, wild shape is just a weak buff that comes with a cosmetic choice that is mostly meaningless in this UA.

[Talij]

Also now if you want to scout, just summon a familiar instead.

[Segev]

Also now if you want to scout, just summon a familiar instead.

This is true, that's doable.

I'm not thrilled that familiars no longer can be sent away and recalled without killing them (once per long rest) or casting the spell again, but they're still functional. The range limit on seeing through its senses has been removed entirely, which is pretty amazing, honestly. And the ability to deliver touch spells no longer requires coordination and reaction, though it still is clunky wrt movement since the familiar explicitly takes its turn after yours, rather than sharing your turn. (This isn't a weakness compared to existing familiar rules; this is an area that is even more awkward in 5e right now.)

[Kane0]

Alright, guess i'll do my usual readthrough then.

Druid:
- Can wear metal now, cool
- Channel Nature is a Primal copy of Channel Divinity, cool.
- Wildshape is a lot to unpack, will do that separately below
- Spellcasting is still slots = preparations, still don't like it
- Healing Blossoms is (Wis) d4s shared in a 10' area compared to the Cleric's (Prof) d8s to one target, some good short rest healing that isn't reliant on slots but will fall off as a combat heal very quickly
- Wild Companion is pretty much same as Tasha's
- Wild Resurgence lets you heal and wildshape in the same action, saves you uses at a level you have 4 uses per rest and your wildshape lasting 7+ hours each time. Helpful for Moon Druids who can do this with a bonus action but it's a pretty minor benefit for the level you get this.
- Beast Spells removes your no casting in beast form limitation
- Archdruid lets you spam wildshape even more, plus the ageing ribbon

Wildshaping/Moon Druid
- Your AC and HP don't improve, so you're essentially trading spellcasting for perception and WIS-SADding your STR/DEX for checks and melee attacks. That's a pretty mediocre trade for combat purposes, and a lot of utility as been level gated (see below). Moon druids shape as a bonus action still.
- Your creature type doesn't change
- You can still be a serviceable mount
- There are no ways to get most beast features like trample, charge, pounce, poison, echolocation, webwalking, etc.
- Cant climb, swim, fly or tiny until levels 5, 7, 9 and 11 respectively
- Your beast attacks never become magical
- Moon Druids can cast Abjurations while wildshaped. Healing spells are now notably Abjuration, presumably for this reason
- Combat Wildshape Quick Attack is wierd, where did this Unarmed Strike come from, and why is that not Bestial Strike?
- Elemental Wildshape gives you a floating resistance, alright
- Elemental Strike adds bonus damage, but as above it never becomes magical
- Thousand Forms lets you spam Alter Self, meh

This is a real mixed bag. Wildshape has obviously been gutted, in some ways it should have been and in other ways it should not have. Generic statblocks are good for playability, but the implementation is lacking. The Channel Divinity is good for diversifying druids. I'm certainly not giving this a tick of approval but I do want to see it iterated rather than dropped.


Paladin
- Lay On Hands can't fix Diseases now, I guess too many people complained about Paladins curing Plagues. Disease immunity is gone too
- Spellcasting is still slots = preparations, still don't like it
- Smites can be done with ranged weapons and unarmed, but are also limited to once per turn and can't also cast a spell
- Fighting styles expanded
- Channel Divinity uses increase like Clerics and Druids, and Divine Sense is your default use
- Level 5 gets you a free casting of Find Steed each day
- Aura of Protection moved back one level
- Abjure Foes is a great alternative use of your Channel, even as an action. Cha mod targets Dazed & Frightened or just Dazed even if they save
- Radiant Strikes is just a rename of Improved Divine Smite, all good
- Aura of Courage moved back three levels
- Restoring Touch is like Cleansing Touch, but does conditions rather than spells and is moved back one level. fine.
- Auras getting bigger is moved forward one level
- Divine Conduit is the same as Archdruid minus the ageing, meh

Devotion
- Bonus spells get you a free cast per day
- Sacred Weapon is a bonus action use of your Channel, good improvement
- Smite of Protection sounds like an oxymoron, but it hands out THP when smite which is fine
- Aura of Devotion adds Charms to the no-go zone
- Holy Nimbus adds Radiant damage or sunlight to your aura, strangely not as a Channel

Overall, more a shuffle than a change. Bowadin and shoryukadin are now possible, but otherwise nothing that is a real gamechanger. Wavy hand.


Epic Boons
Fate: 8 times per long rest add or remove 2d4 from a d20 test, nice. Mages and Priests only, WHY?
Recall: 25% chance to not expend any 1st to 4th level spell slots when casting, okay.
Truesight: 60' permanent Truesight, nice. Priests only, WHY?

Spells
- Healing is now Abjuration, *sigh*
- Smites don't use concentration and can be used when you hit (again including ranged weapons and punches), good all round
- Find Familiar/Steed have statblocks like Tasha's summons, each with one neat ability, fine

[kazaryu]

honestly, im unenthused.

i dislike the new wildshape, conceptually it may be fine. but its too inflexible. as others have pointed out, you can't really turn into a lot of the more specialized creatures. you can't for example, spin webs as a spider, or turn into a venomous snake. idk...i can understand why they do it but, feels too meh to me. and apparently its a major boon to be able to become tiny? to the point that they needed to push that ability back?

idk, im all about just letting PC's be awesome. Im also not overly enthused about all the 'priests' getting channel divinity. things are becoming even more samey. its not bad necessarily, just boring...definitely still not seeing any reason to move to 6e when it releases. Although there are a few things im likely to steal...that is, assuming those things aren't already in 5e and i just don't know.






Epic Boons
Fate: 8 times per long rest add or remove 2d4 from a d20 test, nice. Mages and Priests only, WHY?
Recall: 25% chance to not expend any 1st to 4th level spell slots when casting, okay.
Truesight: 60' permanent Truesight, nice. Priests only, WHY?


i mean, insofar as having anything limited to groups, those ones make sense. they both lean into the 'priest' group being the insightful 'wise' person of the group. makes sense to me. in other words, its a narrative thing, not a mechanical one.

personally, im ok with it so long as each group/class gets its own powerful. unique options.

[Aimeryan]

You don't. The PHB had a selection of perfectly fine Beasts to use in the back of it. There are more in the MM, but the PHB can have at least as many as this nerfed "feature" gives with the "assume the stat block" rules instead.


I disagree. Not only is the CR-lock in place, but it would be fairly easy to limit the Druid to fairly specific shapes by giving a fixed list, or by having a number of "known forms." I'm not a fan of that; I much prefer the way it is now, but it would be a way to limit it. Also, if you're NOT using polymorph or Wild Shape, there's little reason to care if a creature is a Beast or a Monstrosity, so making anything you don't want a Druid to get to turn into a Monstrosity suffices.

Its a new edition, they can go further; just tag every beast they are fine with being wildshaped into with an icon or 'Wildshape' or however they stylistically choose. Bam, instant balance. Bam, versatile, fun, and interesting forms. I feel like this isn't even rocket science.

If they go with a generic statblock there needs to be a lot of options for appendages, senses, damage types, etc - with a default recommendation for the easily overwhelmed. Allow the druid to change one of those features as a Bonus Action and you might have something interesting.

[Jervis]

Ok, we've all found a lot of problems. But what are the solutions? Whining doesn't do any good. If WOTC came to you and said, "Cool, how do you think we should fix this?" how would you respond?

================================================== ================================================== =======================

Here's mine:

Wild Shape:
- gain THP on shifting
- ensure attacks are magical for overcoming resistance/immunity
- a slight AC buff
- more "animal-like" abilities. things like web, grapple, poisons, throwing poo as a monkey, whatever. Something flavorful.

Smite:
- Revert the stupid once per turn thing. I don't like the "can't cast a spell" thing, but I could live with it.
- "Fixing" Sorcadin multiclass issues is easy: specify that Smite must only use a PALADIN SPELL SLOT.

Paladin spell slots don’t really exist in a 5e context. Limited the highest level of spell slot you can use based on class level could work I suppose but making all halfcasters have warlock progression is preferable for me.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Its a new edition, they can go further; just tag every beast they are fine with being wildshaped into with an icon or 'Wildshape' or however they stylistically choose. Bam, instant balance. Bam, versatile, fun, and interesting forms. I feel like this isn't even rocket science.

If they go with a generic statblock there needs to be a lot of options for appendages, senses, damage types, etc - with a default recommendation for the easily overwhelmed. Allow the druid to change one of those features as a Bonus Action and you might have something interesting.

To be really heretical...

Shackling wild shape to spell casting causes a lot of this issue and prevents Wild Shape from being as Unique and Cool as it otherwise could be. So druids shouldn't be shapechangers. Or should only be shapechangers. The other half (the casting stuff) could move to a "shaman" class that gets placeable auras as its Unique Cool Thing.

Then you have a martial (or at most 1/3 caster) who shifts his shape and does it really really well...and a full caster who gets castery toys. That way you can balance the combat capabilities of the shifter around being in wild shape 100% (or nearly) of the time and give them a wealth of options to customize the forms/pick from various forms. AND not have to deal with being tied to a squishy caster chassis.

[MadMusketeer]

To be really heretical...

Shackling wild shape to spell casting causes a lot of this issue and prevents Wild Shape from being as Unique and Cool as it otherwise could be. So druids shouldn't be shapechangers. Or should only be shapechangers. The other half (the casting stuff) could move to a "shaman" class that gets placeable auras as its Unique Cool Thing.

Then you have a martial (or at most 1/3 caster) who shifts his shape and does it really really well...and a full caster who gets castery toys. That way you can balance the combat capabilities of the shifter around being in wild shape 100% (or nearly) of the time and give them a wealth of options to customize the forms/pick from various forms. AND not have to deal with being tied to a squishy caster chassis.

Honestly, I agree - even in 5e, for most Druids Wild Shape is either their core primary feature that they use every combat or a relatively minor side feature they only use occasionally, depending on whether they're a Moon Druid or not. Given that most people pick the class EITHER to play as a shapeshifter, OR to play as a nature-themed caster, but generally not BOTH, it would make more sense to have them as separate classes. Wild Shape is absolutely an ability that is interesting and versatile enough to build a class around, although I'm not sure what the subclasses would be (a problem shared by plenty of other classes). Like you said, Druid's would have to get something more caster-y to compensate, but there are plenty of thing that could work for that.

[Schwann145]

DRUID
I really think people are downplaying how badly nerfed Druids are, even when acknowledging their getting heavily nerfed. :smalleek:

•No, Wild Shape isn't losing some, or even a lot, of utility - it's losing 100% of it's utility! For an ability that was 80% about it's utility, losing all of it is totally unreasonable. Wanna be a spider? No venomous bite, no webbing, no spider climbing. Wanna be a wolf? No tripping. Wanna be a rhino? No charge/gore. Wanna be a bat? No blindsight. Wanna be a snake? No constricting or venomous bite. Wanna be a big cat? No pounce.
You. Get. Nothing. for shifting into an "animal." Nothing.
Did they successfully make it much easier to understand and use by changing to this generic statblock style? Absolutely they did. All it cost was the entire soul of the ability.
•Wild Shape is buffed to be level 1 instead of level 2... kinda. Arial form is nerfed by one level. Aquatic form is nerfed by 3 levels. Tiny form is nerfed by nine levels?! What the actual... This is entirely unreasonable; as in, I can see zero reason for this change. Tiny animals require tier 3 levels? They MUST be joking?
•In general, "10+Wis=AC" is going to be a slight buff to Animal Form AC, but that still doesn't make it a good AC. And with the total removal of Animal HP you're now faced with the reality that being in melee is not worth it. You just won't survive well enough; you'll end up more a hindrance to a party than a help.
•Wild Shape, by default, is a Magic Action? Does this mean your primary class ability can be counterspelled or dispelled? Seriously?
•The Stat changes for Animal Forms aren't actually as meaningful as they look on paper. For Land Form, you treat STR/DEX as equal to WIS... but for STR that's about the same benefit as casting Shillelagh. As for DEX, you don't get to add it to your AC and none of your attacks are Finesse, so the only benefit you're getting is Dex-based skill checks and Reflex saves. It's not nothing, but it's not as good as it seems at a glance. Also, to repeat a criticism from earlier: You don't get the STR adjustment for Aquatic Forms? My croc, or whale, or whatever, isn't stronger than my base humanoid form? That's outright ridiculous.
•If I turn into a Cat at level 1-4, I can't climb like a Cat. I have to wait until level 5? Make that make sense.
•Expanding your options with Nature's Aid would be a welcome addition... if the options weren't so underwhelming. Healing Blossoms? WisD4 in a 10ft square that you have to split between targets? That starts, and remains, so incredibly underwhelming. If it healed it's full value for all targets it still wouldn't be amazing, but I wouldn't actively feel bad about choosing it. Wild Companion is also incredibly disappointing. It seems like they're trying to push Familiars as way more meaningful/useful than they actually are. But Familiar gained through the spell is permanent, but this one lasts for a day? You get a, mostly ribbon, pet friend for a day at the cost of healing or shapechanging? It's a bad choice.
•The removal of the restriction on metallic armor is long overdue. They've never explained it in any meaningful way, and the weak attempts over the additions have been self-contradictory (since you could always use worked metal... just not for armor? Dumb). But, since you lose access to Medium Armor, and light armor is basically all non-metal anyway, there isn't much change in reality. If you go out of your way to pick up Med or Heavy training, that allows you to notice the change, but then Wild Shape undoes it entirely anyway. Big whoop.
•Alternating Forms is actually a nice and meaningful ability, that the 2014 Druid would absolutely love. Unfortunately, the massive nerfs to Wild Shape make this all but meaningless. I suppose you can hop out of shape to cast a spell real quick, which is nice, but since you can talk in all your Animal Forms, and you can choose a form that has hands, like an ape, then they really need to explain why I can't cast spells in a form that can successfully produce verbal, somatic, and material components as necessary. Just cuz? Do better. - Honestly, again agreeing with an earlier comment, unlimited Wild Shape should just come online here instead of this Alternating Forms ability.
•Wild Resurgence is... okay? But when do you do most of your Wild Shaping? In the middle of a fight when people are likely to be kinda hurt and need healing? No, you do it before the fight even starts because it lasts for hours, or you do it at the beginning of a fight to prepare for the fight but while everyone is basically as fresh as they're gonna be. This is one of those "better than literally nothing, but too niche to be in any way meaningful," kind of abilities.
•Beast Spells - again, explain why I can't cast spells if I can speak and have hands with opposable thumbs? This ability basically just makes Alternating Forms totally worthless. I like abilities that grow a class, not abilities that make others redundant and useless.
•Archdruid - a straight nerf, but one I imagine most people won't care about since most people only care about combat. You lose the reliability of Wild Shape in non-combat situations, but at least you always have it for a fight? So. Boring. The fun of Wild Shape is the new ways you can interact with the world, and that is entirely gone from the Druid, and I hate it.
•Sidenote - Every Animal Form gets Darkvision? God I'm so tired of the absolutely joke that Darkvision is in 5e. Just give it to literally everyone and everything. We're almost there already as it is!

Circle of the Moon
•Combat Wild Shape doesn't really offer anything that stands out to me, but does leave me scratching my head a bit.
-Abjuration spells. Whatever abjuration spells are available on the Primal List will make this either interesting or not. The intent is to keep self-healing on the table, according to the video at least, but with the way they shuffle spells around schools as much as they do (regardless of how much/little sense it makes), well, we'll just have to see.
-Quick Attack. You can bonus-action Unarmed Strike? Is this a typo? Is it supposed to be bonus-action Beastial Strike? A Druid gains no Unarmed Strike benefits. Why is "1+str" a meaningful mechanic here?
-Swift Transformation. Having the Swift Action available to shift remains a good things, but the trouble with shifting being a Magic Action remains. Does it stop being Magic if you do it as a Bonus action? This needs some serious clarification.
•Elemental Wild Shape - It's... fine. The ability to change into an actual elemental was just flat-out better, so this is a downright nerf, but I suppose that's just the name of the game for Druid. Unfortunate. (Notably missing, as already pointed out several times, is the ability to hit as a magic attack. That's a serious problem for every Druid and a glaring hole in it's combat progress, IMO.)
•Elemental Strike - Generic bonus damage. Lack of magic-counting attack remains. Effective enough but pretty boring.
•Thousand Forms - If you can Alter Self whenever you want forever, why can't you Wild Shape whenever you want forever? Just... just do it already. It's not good enough to gate this hard. Never has been.

PALADIN
We start out with the same thematic problem Paladin has always had - You gain your powers from your oath, but you don't take your oath until 3rd level. So why do you have powers before that?

•Spellcasting is buffed, available at 1st level instead of 2nd level. Other than the weird thematic issues this causes that I just mentioned, it's fine.
•Lay on Hands now works on Undead and Fiends? Weird. Also, you lose the ability to cure Disease, and it seems you can't cure multiple Poisons with one Lay anymore. Gotta spend multiple actions to do it (not that "multiple poisoned applications" is a thing... so a non-issue I suppose).
•Divine Smite - I know most people aren't gonna agree with me, but the nerf is deserved. Combat encounters can be utterly ruined by a successful Nova-ing paladin, and that is just bad for the game. It takes the other party members out of the fight and it puts a ton of pressure on a DM who was counting on an encounter lasting longer than a single round. Smite once per turn is totally reasonable, just accept it. Also, the extension of Smite to all weapons and Unarmed Strikes is a very welcome change.
•Divine Sense gets lumped into Channel Divinity and therefore gets nerfed from level 1 to level 3? A ribbon ability like this shouldn't compete with Channel Divinity options. I don't understand this. I've also seen some people complain that other types, like Fey, aren't included, but they never were, and they aren't thematically appropriate for core Paladin. I could see an Oath of Ancients getting Fey as an option, but all Paladins? No.
•Maintaining Fighting Style is good. They're not putting Paladin in the "Fighter" "group" but they're absolutely Warriors, obviously.
•Total loss of Divine Health? That's a bit jarring of a nerf, IMO. I'd love to hear an explanation for this decision.
•Faithful Steed is a nice change/addition to the chassis. The trusty steed has long been part of the Paladin fantasy, and that was missing in 5e unless you specifically took the spell. Now it's always an option, which is appropriately fitting.
•Aura of Protection gets a double nerf: granted 1 level later and cannot stack with other Aura effects if you have multiple Paladins in the party. Unfortunate.
•Abjure Foes - You're better than Clerics now, who are limited to Undead while you can effect anything? What? Seriously weird buff.
•Radiant Strikes doesn't really change at all, except for the name. A lack of Necrotic option (for those evil Paladins) is still obviously lacking.
•Aura of Courage gets a 3-level nerf? Unfortunate.
•Restoring Touch replaces Cleansing Touch and comes one level later. Whether this is a good change or not will have to be seen through playtest, but using LoH uses instead of it's own resource is unfortunate; not unexpected, given how it works, but unfortunate all the same.

Oath of Devotion
•Spells - The free casting of an Oath spell is a great addition. Far too often Paladins don't have any spells because they're entirely used for Smites. This guarantees you actually get to use your spells, at least sometimes, for their actual spell effects. I wish the game incentivized this without forcing it, but 5e is *all* about combat, so it's no surprise that combat is what everyone focuses on 95% of the time. Ah well.
The bonus spell changes are hit or miss, IMO:
-3rd level - I think Shield of Faith is a better option than Sanctuary. A Paladin is a warrior, first and foremost. Striving for peace is laudable, but forcing it is more up the Cleric's ally.
-5th level - Alternatively, I think losing Lesser Restoration for Aid is a pretty significant nerf. Unfortunate.
-9th level - I like both of these changes actually. They just seem more fitting for the Divine Warrior. The old spells were very much more suited to a traditional "caster" and that's just not what a Paladin is.
-13th level - Here we're trading some utility for some Damage. Opinion on this could easily go either way. I think either option (Freedom of Movement vs Staggering Smite) fit well enough here. Personally I think I prefer FoM, but I wouldn't disagree with folks who prefer the new choice.
-17th level - No changes here, so nothing to note.
•Sacred Weapon trades it's ability to be treated as a magical weapon for the ability to do Radiant damage instead of physical. I think I prefer the former. Less lightsabers in my medieval fantasy please.
•Turn the Unholy had to be replaced, since you already have the uber-Turn in the Paladin chassis, so now we get Smite of Protection, which is just a flat-out weird ability. "Heal your wounds because of how awesomely I smashed this foe!"... or something? It's a tiny bit of healing and it's thematically weird. Not a fan.
•Aura of Devotion doesn't change, so nothing to note.
•Holy Nimbus gets some significant buffs and some significant nerfs. You gain it at 14 as opposed to 20, which is big. Your damage potential is a tiny bit higher but you're unlikely to max out Charisma, so this will likely be a nerf. The Sunlight effect is entirely limited to your Aura area-of-effects and no longer extends beyond that in any way, which is a nerf. You can reactivate it with a spell slot expendature, which is a buff. You no longer gain Advantage on saving throws against spells cast by Fiends or Undead, which is a pretty big nerf.
You also entirely lose Purity of Spirit, which is a big nerf. Unfortunate!

General Updates:
-They're buffing Epic Boons, which is desperately needed. Whether they're hitting the mark will remain to be seen, but so far I'm not convinced they're going far enough, TBH.
-Banishing Smite: I hate the way they're treating Banishment, and this is no different.
-Weapon Changes: I don't think this will play out as meaningfully as it should, but I'm very glad to see they're acknowledging that weapons are a boring part of the game and need spicing up. Either way, I look forward to seeing what they offer in the upcoming Warrior packet.

[gloryblaze]

Features are coming on-line later. Why? (Aura of protection at 7 rather than 6, fear immunity aura at 11 rather than 10). If the games only usually go to 11 ish, more stuff is being left out of play.


I don’t think that this specifically is an intentional nerf (though it certainly is a nerf, at least for Oath of Devotion). It’s just a byproduct of the standardization of subclass levels between classes. Before, Paladin subclasses got features at 3, 7, 15, and 20. Now, all subclasses get features at 3, 6, 10, and 14. It wouldn’t make much sense to leave Aura of Protection at 6 alongside the formerly-level-7 subclass feature and then leave 7 as a dead level, so Aura gets bumped to 7. Not much they can do about that if they want to maintain the subclass standardization. Same thing with the old level 10 feature getting moved to make room for the new level 10 subclass feature.

I get the feeling that the Venn diagram between “critics of this nerf” and “people who hate the idea of standardizing subclass levels across classes” is probably pretty close to a circle, so I doubt this explanation will actually make you like the change, but I hope it at least illuminates their thought process :P

[Gignere]

Edit: @PhoenixPhyre, @Segev, @JackPhoenix




Okay, I have to concede I was wrong on a major element. When I did the assessment, I was somehow under the impression the original druid was locked out of multi-attack until later levels. It is not, and it dratcically scales the damage up for the moon druid in the Pre-Level 5 comparison.


Now I am looking at this with even more bewilderment. It sounds like people are complaining that that tier 1 moon druid is no longer almost equal to TWO fighter PC's of the same level.....

Wait until you check out the deinonychus and Rocktopus forms Moon druids can choose to shift into. These forms really blow anything martials can do until level 5 if not higher starting at level 2. Moon Druid needed a nerf, but I am supportive of circle of the moon granting an hp buff and AC buff relative to non moon druids. Don’t use temp hp because it won’t work with bark skin.

Like maybe 1 hp per level of Druid and +PB in AC. This will bring them up fully in line with the fighting classes.

[Goobahfish]

I've only read the Druid (other than less smity Paladin which is fine).

Wild Shape
I think, if you are a non-Moon druid this feels a little weird. It is kind of cool you can Wild-shape as a 'backup' and turn into a moderate bashing machine. Two attacks, a normal amount of hit points, good modifiers... bad AC...

Aquatic form... No walruses then. Dex but not Strength? That seems... arbitrary and lame. Especially if you look at Unarmed Strike where you can use it to Grapple and Shove. No Krakens?

Aerial form... Flyby!

So yeah... for a non-Moon Druid, you've lost a bit of the 'spider web', glow like a Firebeetle stuff (which is cool RP).

---

Resource wise. Good change. Lots of charges on a Long Rest. One charge on a Short Rest. This is perfect.

---

Moon Druids...

Nope. It doesn't work. You get a Bonus Action attack... which is a very subpar attack. Yay... 4-6 damage. In land form it can be a grapple/shove which is kind of cool.
You can cast healing spells and protection spells. This makes you a slightly more 'reliable' tank. Except, you can't do it as a bonus action like before (except Healing Word I guess).

Hotfix
#1: Just give them some temporary hit points when they shift form. That would be enough to make it feel 'not awful'.
#2: Give them a list of animals and some 'cute abilities' for each form. Like... spider, you gain web-spit. Elk, you gain a charge attack etc. Make it very limited but just give back some of the utility.
#3: Let Aquatic forms take Strength... Kraken... Kraken...

[Amnestic]

- Combat Wildshape Quick Attack is wierd, where did this Unarmed Strike come from, and why is that not Bestial Strike?

Making it an unarmed strike lets you shove or grapple instead of just attacking, and also means it doesn't stack with the elemental strike damage - presumably because giving 10th level moon druids 3 attacks of 1d8+wismod+1d6 would be a little bit whack balance wise. Damage gets kept in check and a little bit of flexibility if you want to shove prone->attack with advantage.



-Quick Attack. You can bonus-action Unarmed Strike? Is this a typo? Is it supposed to be bonus-action Beastial Strike? A Druid gains no Unarmed Strike benefits. Why is "1+str" a meaningful mechanic here?

In landform your strength=your wisdom. Damage isn't notable (but also...it's free damage) but a BA shove is.

[animewatcha]

When the survey comes out, can they be reminded to care the bonus bestial strike damage over to barbarians (of the beast) since druid claws now outdamage their multi-attacks.

-edit- Also, Paladin aura of protection (unless i am missing this) doesn't require the paladin to be conscious. So add your charisma modifier to your own death saving throws.

[Atranen]

So, Druid... is it just me, or does it feel like all Druids are Moon Druids now? So many of the things they get as they level up are just "wild shape does a new thing now." And here I thought they were trying to provide options for Druids that don't use Wild Shape much. Apparently those Druids get Find Familiar and a minor healing ability, and a whole lot of levels where all they care about is the spells.

This is Crawford's reasoning for making Moon druid the 'default':


...one of the biggest things for people to play with, ponder, test, discuss and that is the new form of wild shape. Wild shape in the version of the Druid in this Unearthed Arcana now is available at first level. We view it as iconic to the Druid. Previously the Druid at first level got simply you know the usual array of proficiencies and spell casting and the druidic language right. We felt the starting step for the Druid needed a little more oomph and needed that iconic piece of the class: wild shape. ...

...there are Druid players who picked the class far more to be a nature magician than a shapeshifter right so we that we're always kind of balancing those two in this class. Wild shape throughout the editions has grown more and more prominent or more more beefy than it was an initially envisioned. Originally wild shape was not the core feature of the Druid. If we go all the way back to first edition DND it was certainly a cool feature of the Druid right it was there but it wasn't defining for who the Druid was. Whereas over time as the game has grown and as other games based on DND have grown shape-shifting has become a major part of the druid's identity.

So yeah, they basically view it as 'the wild shape class' and are building it around that. I can't say I agree.

[Kane0]

Making it an unarmed strike lets you shove or grapple instead of just attacking


Ah right. Sounds like a silly, roundabout way of giving back the ability to grab or prone that some beasts already had to me.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is Crawford's reasoning for making Moon druid the 'default':



So yeah, they basically view it as 'the wild shape class' and are building it around that. I can't say I agree.

Then it shouldn't be a full caster. The two are incompatible if you want a good wild shape class.

[Aimeryan]

To be really heretical...

Shackling wild shape to spell casting causes a lot of this issue and prevents Wild Shape from being as Unique and Cool as it otherwise could be. So druids shouldn't be shapechangers. Or should only be shapechangers. The other half (the casting stuff) could move to a "shaman" class that gets placeable auras as its Unique Cool Thing.

Then you have a martial (or at most 1/3 caster) who shifts his shape and does it really really well...and a full caster who gets castery toys. That way you can balance the combat capabilities of the shifter around being in wild shape 100% (or nearly) of the time and give them a wealth of options to customize the forms/pick from various forms. AND not have to deal with being tied to a squishy caster chassis.

If I understand you correctly, 100% agree. I've played a Moon Druid who wasn't happy with his normal form and wanted to just being in animal shape all the time doing animal shape things. Except, no casting in Wildshape (until 18), and the (sub)class is completely dependent on being able to cast past Tier 1 to keep up. If Moon Druid traded casting in for (balanced) Wildshaping, preferably trading between different Wildshapes at will (would require sorting out the HP issue), that would be perfect.

[Theodoxus]

So... druid is ripped right out of the screen from WoW? Ok... and 6E isn't gonna be compared to a video game like 4E was?

[Kane0]

So... druid is ripped right out of the screen from WoW? Ok... and 6E isn't gonna be compared to a video game like 4E was?

Depends on the cooldowns and toolbars

[Zevox]

This is Crawford's reasoning for making Moon druid the 'default':



So yeah, they basically view it as 'the wild shape class' and are building it around that. I can't say I agree.
While I certainly agree with him that it is iconic to the class - I absolutely wouldn't want it removed from them - I can't agree that the thing to do because of that is make it the entire thing that the class gets besides its spells, which is more or less what they've done. While also simultaneously massively nerfing it and removing all of the fun and flavor of the various forms. Yeah, something's got to give, I have a hard time imagining anyone who likes the Druid being too pleased with this version.

[Aimeryan]

•Alternating Forms is actually a nice and meaningful ability, that the 2014 Druid would absolutely love. Unfortunately, the massive nerfs to Wild Shape make this all but meaningless. I suppose you can hop out of shape to cast a spell real quick, which is nice, but since you can talk in all your Animal Forms, and you can choose a form that has hands, like an ape, then they really need to explain why I can't cast spells in a form that can successfully produce verbal, somatic, and material components as necessary. Just cuz? Do better. - Honestly, again agreeing with an earlier comment, unlimited Wild Shape should just come online here instead of this Alternating Forms ability.
[...]
•Archdruid - a straight nerf, but one I imagine most people won't care about since most people only care about combat. You lose the reliability of Wild Shape in non-combat situations, but at least you always have it for a fight? So. Boring. The fun of Wild Shape is the new ways you can interact with the world, and that is entirely gone from the Druid, and I hate it.
[...]
•Thousand Forms - If you can Alter Self whenever you want forever, why can't you Wild Shape whenever you want forever? Just... just do it already. It's not good enough to gate this hard. Never has been.

The only good reason for limiting Wildshape uses, at least in my opinion, was due to the HP issue. Since there is no HP change now anyway, I see no reason for the limitation. Even spellcasting was less an issue since you had two Wildshapes per Short Rest and likely two encounters of note per Short Rest - you just cast something Concentration based first, then shifted. Now, Alternating Forms deals with even this, so why bother with limiting it?

In my opinion;

Just allow the form change as a Bonus Action at level 3 for a Moon Druid, no Channel Nature use required.
Replace Alternating Forms; are non-Moon Druids even going to use this feature given how weak Wild Shape is for them?
Replace Archdruid; while it would still have a use for the other Channel Natures, it seems pretty weak for level 18.
Replace Thousand Forms; I'm failing to see how Thousand Forms isn't just a ribbon feature at level 14 given you have had the ability to choose how you appear with Wildshape since level 1 - maybe the Natural Weapons part to upgrade that Unarmed Strike and make it magical?


Then for Wildshape itself, chuck features options at it. Have some way that you trade off features - a simple cost per feature and a total amount of points to spend might do it. Have a recommended package for the indecisives (I mean, they are already playing a full caster, so I'm not sure this is even needed). The whole point of Wildshape in my opinion is the versatility and utility; having literally one set block with no utility of note is an Aberration - and we know how Druids feel about those.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If I understand you correctly, 100% agree. I've played a Moon Druid who wasn't happy with his normal form and wanted to just being in animal shape all the time doing animal shape things. Except, no casting in Wildshape (until 18), and the (sub)class is completely dependent on being able to cast past Tier 1 to keep up. If Moon Druid traded casting in for (balanced) Wildshaping, preferably trading between different Wildshapes at will (would require sorting out the HP issue), that would be perfect.

Spitballing below


d10 martial.
No armor, but unarmored defense like a monk. Thematically, armor interferes with the easy shifting process.
UCT(s): Combat Forms, utility forms

Combat Form(s): pick a CR 1/2 beast from <list>. You can transform into it at will until you decide to shift out or are knocked unconscious. Keep your mental stats, AC (including the unarmored defense) and HP. As you level, it scales via (formulas), gaining more and stronger attacks and better to hit/DCs. Every few levels (every 3?) you pick another creature, unlocking ones that add alternate movement modes later on.

Utility Forms: pick any CR 1/8 or below creature from <list, unlocking movement modes at higher levels>. You can transform into them at will, with the same provisos as Combat Forms, except they don't scale.

At higher levels you get telepathy and can speak to beasts while shifted.

Subclasses can modify your combat forms in various ways. Three I can think of:
* Aggressor -- adds damage and conditions (ie ways to knock down, pin, etc enemies better). Maybe mini smites (using a pool of dice, not spell slots).
* Defender -- Adds durability, giving you THP. Gives ways to control movement/"aggro" (ie Sentinel-like features, interception charges).
* Primalist -- Doesn't boost forms but instead gives 1/3 shaman spell casting + rituals, including later the ability to cast in form.



Same chassis as druids, but gets full medium armor and martial weapons.
Full caster, same basic list.
UCT(s): Manifest Zones.

Manifest Zones are basically placeable auras. Mostly they help allies, but some might act like spiritual weapon (except ranged and elemental) or provide area denial. Things like
* Stonewall -- pulses THP to allies in the region every round.
* Windwalker -- protects allies in the region from movement-impairing effects, cancels difficult terrain, grants extra movement
* Crushing Gravity -- draws enemies in the region inward, prevents flight
* Crashing storm -- shoves enemies away
* Crackling Lightning -- Zaps an enemy within range each turn.

All the non-moon druid subclasses still mostly work, expending Manifest Zone uses instead of wild shape uses. Moon is just gone. A few need touch-ups, but meh

[windgate]

Wait until you check out the deinonychus and Rocktopus forms Moon druids can choose to shift into. These forms really blow anything martials can do until level 5 if not higher starting at level 2. Moon Druid needed a nerf, but I am supportive of circle of the moon granting an hp buff and AC buff relative to non moon druids. Don’t use temp hp because it won’t work with bark skin.

Like maybe 1 hp per level of Druid and +PB in AC. This will bring them up fully in line with the fighting classes.

I don't think they ever should be fully in line with the martial classes. There needs to be some sort of trade-off to being a full spell caster with melee damage capability.

The Cleric usually only gets one weapon attack per turn.
The Bard can get weapon focused subclasses, but it has lower defense and its spell list is more "support" than "Damage" (Ignoring Magical Secrets).

At the end of the day, when it comes exclusively to melee combat, The Fighter should be superior to a wild shaped druid in terms of front line combat. Otherwise, what's the relative upside for the fighter not having spellcasting?

[Aimeryan]

At higher levels you get telepathy and can speak to beasts while shifted.

Hah, I took Ghostwise Halfling to deal with that. The DM was nice and dropped the one creature limit (although, I expect this was largely because they really couldn't be bothered with the characters and players having different knowledge of what was communicated every moment of every session).

[animewatcha]

With the wording now on the smite. Does smite get doubled on a crit hit?
Also, was the wording on light/two-weapon fighting like this in previous UAs or can monk use daggers (or other light monk weapon), attack 3 times (since the bonus attack is no longer bonus action) and then flurry for 2 more attacks?

[Carpe Gonzo]

The druid video says land form is tankier, but it's AC and HP is the same as the sea form. Was there a misprint in the playtest? or are they referring exclusively to the strength and damage as what makes it "tankier" than the others?

[KorvinStarmast]

I don’t think that this specifically is an intentional nerf (though it certainly is a nerf, at least for Oath of Devotion). It’s just a byproduct of the standardization of subclass levels between classes. Before, Paladin subclasses got features at 3, 7, 15, and 20. Now, all subclasses get features at 3, 6, 10, and 14. It wouldn’t make much sense to leave Aura of Protection at 6 alongside the formerly-level-7 subclass feature and then leave 7 as a dead level, so Aura gets bumped to 7. Not much they can do about that if they want to maintain the subclass standardization. Same thing with the old level 10 feature getting moved to make room for the new level 10 subclass feature.
Here's the better idea. Make the Oath specific Aura show up at 6 and the generic one show up at 7. The sixth level feature is Lame: it is not always on, and it is dependent on spending a spell slot on a smite.
Craptastic.

[Kane0]

Hold up, rolling a 1 doesn't give you Inspiration Heroic Advantage anymore. What gives?

[elyktsorb]

These forms really blow anything martials can do until level 5 if not higher starting at level 2. Moon Druid needed a nerf, but I am supportive of circle of the moon granting an hp buff and AC buff relative to non moon druids. Don’t use temp hp because it won’t work with bark skin.

Like maybe 1 hp per level of Druid and +PB in AC. This will bring them up fully in line with the fighting classes.

I mean, I don't see why the solution had to be nerf druid instead of buff martials. Sure, moon druid definitely needed a bit of a nerf at early levels, but it also needed to do a bit better at later levels.

[Zevox]

Hold up, rolling a 1 doesn't give you Inspiration Heroic Advantage anymore. What gives?
Maybe they actually listened to people like me, who think that getting Inspiration just from rolling any number on the dice is a lame idea that cheapens the mechanic.

Or maybe it's just another one where they got a lot of "meh, I can live with this I guess" responses and weren't happy enough with that.

[Kane0]

Maybe they actually listened to people like me, who think that getting Inspiration just from rolling any number on the dice is a lame idea that cheapens the mechanic.

Or maybe it's just another one where they got a lot of "meh, I can live with this I guess" responses and weren't happy enough with that.

I can understand that, but on the other hand i've not seen Inspiration awarded once in my last four sessions so far. Forgetting I think is the biggest culprit, but too high a bar is also a factor IMO.

[Gignere]

I mean, I don't see why the solution had to be nerf druid instead of buff martials. Sure, moon druid definitely needed a bit of a nerf at early levels, but it also needed to do a bit better at later levels.

Moon Druid does fine at later levels. Still a full casting class. It just has this weird gap like between 13 - 16 where they can’t really be the tank like they did the earlier 12 levels. Then when they get shape change they can do it again.

[Zevox]

I can understand that, but on the other hand i've not seen Inspiration awarded once in my last four sessions so far. Forgetting I think is the biggest culprit, but too high a bar is also a factor IMO.
And that bothers you? Sounds reasonable to me. Granted, my group does tend to get it more frequently than that - I'd say on average someone gets it about once every other session, though that's very much a guess, and it varies heavily - but I don't feel like I'd have a problem getting it that infrequently either, personally.

[Hael]

It's another pretty terrible UA imo. Again they seem to misunderstand what is strong or not strong with their classes. A druid in 5e, is for all intents and purposes, a class that has a great spellbook, and a good utility feature that serves almost no purpose in combat (unless you are a moon druid). Almost all of its class features (until lvl17) were tied up into something that provided almost imperceptible gains.

In 5.5, they have reworked it to have even less utility, and yet is still functionally useless in combat. It is just a missed opportunity to improve the class in a new and interesting way (sorry the healing flower thing is lame).

Meanwhile the nerfs to the paladin chassis seem very small to me (relative to the nerfs every other class has taken so far). A delay in progression for some of those features hurts a bit, but the devotion paladin class is still extremely strong... The nerf to smite is pretty inconsequential..

We also now have enough information to start comparing classes in 1DnD, and right from the getgo we already see a pretty major imbalance between the Paladin chassis, and something that remains weak, like the rogue. It remains a complete mismatch.

[Pex]

Quick first impression.

Wow they nerfed Wild Shape hard. I expect them to get mixed reaction - lots of comments from people who love this and people who hate this. The only thing to stand out to bother me is I find Moon Druid at least, if not Wild Shape in general, needs an AC boost in Animal Form. You're giving up spellcasting to fight. You need to be able to survive the fight.

They nerfed and buffed Paladin a little. Took away here, gave stuff there. As a single class it's fine, but say goodbye to multiclassing more than two levels in it. People were willing to go to 6 for Aura of Protection and be heavy warrior. Are they now willing to go to level 7? Will they not go to level 8 for the ASI since they're at 7? By coincidence I recently have a personal bias in that I joined a new 5E campaign where I will take 6 levels of Paladin then multiclass Bard, so this change is an eye-twist. I'm not overtly bothered, but I don't think Paladin 6/CH Spellcaster 14 was such an abomination that needed nerfing. Now everyone multiclassing Paladin will be doing Paladin 2/Spellcaster 18 which I think is the more egregious for those who are bothered by such things.

[Leon]

This is what DungeonWorld (and I'm sure other games) basically does - weapons have special traits but the base damage depends on your class. It's actually pretty cool that your fighter is so badass she can kill a guy with a rusty spoon!

Having had to fight with a leg of Ham in the campaign I played in, it was great.


I think it's instructive to compare this take on Wild Shape to how Druids work in World of Warcraft (where this kind of "pick a template" vision of shapeshifting works really well) — the difference is that WoW has a very strong vision of what your different forms are supposed to do. You have your basic "human" form (which can cast spells), a melee damage "cat" form, a ranged damage "moonkin" form, a tank "bear" form, and a speedy travel "stag" form that can be further specialized for what environment you're traveling through. Mechanically, that Druid is built as a flexible "back-up" class — a Druid might not be your first choice for ranged damage or tanking or whatever, but they're a credible second choice for any of those roles, and can swap between them on the fly.


3.5e had something similar in its PHB2 as a variant option. It was a lot of fun to play as someone who loves Druids but has always hated the clunky ass mess that wildshape consistently is. About the only thing it lacked was a Swimming form. Typically playing a Druid I'd trade wildshape away for some other option but 5e has no cool variants to do that with but at least has some subclasses that you can use it to power the subclass features and otherwise forget that wildshape is there.

[Xihirli]

This is definitely my favorite of the new UAs so far.

I saw someone earlier say they didn't need much work, did you see what they did to Wild Shape? That required more work than just taking all the fun stuff out of the Rogue did for sure!

[Schwann145]

I don't think they ever should be fully in line with the martial classes. There needs to be some sort of trade-off to being a full spell caster with melee damage capability.

The Cleric usually only gets one weapon attack per turn.
The Bard can get weapon focused subclasses, but it has lower defense and its spell list is more "support" than "Damage" (Ignoring Magical Secrets).

At the end of the day, when it comes exclusively to melee combat, The Fighter should be superior to a wild shaped druid in terms of front line combat. Otherwise, what's the relative upside for the fighter not having spellcasting?

You really can't call a Druid a full spell caster with melee damage capability since for the vast majority of your career, you're specifically locked out of any casting.

Also, DD spells are hot garbage as a strategy, so Bard getting more "support" spells is not a hindrance at all in it's casting capability.

[Goobahfish]

Still not quite over this.

What is the difference between Wildshape... and Shillelagh. Two attacks at level 5... and if you are Moon Druid, a Bonus Action unarmed strike... maybe an extra AC if you have Dex 14 or lower AND Wis 20. 10ft movement speed. Better stats for Grappling...

If I were a vanilla Fighter... I'd have higher AC, higher HP, more damage as a base. Slightly slower... no bonus unarmed strike.

There just isn't enough there. It just feels so... boring.

I think moving to a unified stat-block makes a lot of sense... just not the ones provided I think?

[Xihirli]

The specifics of the statblocks I can mess around with for my players, what's important is that there is one instead of me just hoping the CRs work as intended for once.
Say that a Druid should be better at fighting as an animal all you like but a level 2 Druid should not be able to be able to, twice per short rest, become a level 4 barbarian.

[Psyren]

PALADIN
We start out with the same thematic problem Paladin has always had - You gain your powers from your oath, but you don't take your oath until 3rd level. So why do you have powers before that?

They explicitly address this in the document:

"Each of this class’s subclasses represents a body of oaths that a Paladin begins taking upon joining the class. The final oath, taken at 3rd level, is the culmination of a Paladin’s training. Some characters with this class don’t consider themselves true Paladins until they have reached 3rd level and made this oath. For others, the actual swearing of the oath is a formality, an official stamp on what was already true in the Paladin’s heart."

Basically the "Oath" is actually a collection of oaths, which is actually how they also worked in 5e, because every oath had (and still has) multiple "tenets."

[windgate]

So... druid is ripped right out of the screen from WoW? Ok... and 6E isn't gonna be compared to a video game like 4E was?

I Suspect that you have no personal experience with at least one of those. Using the Druid Class is one the worst and least accurate examples you could use for the 4th Edition = World of Warcraft (of that period) Argument.


The World of Warcraft "feral" druid was a large sack of hit points that ran into melee then stood in one place spamming the same single attack ability (Maul) almost exclusively. It had Negligible Damage Avoidance, no useful cooldowns (while in form) and managed to become less effective in that role as it gained levels. Wait a minute... Isn't that the current 5e Moon Druid???

5e Edition Moon Druid = World of Warcraft ???? /sarcasm



Edit: On the other hand, the 4th Edition druid completely lacked healing, Had wizard level survivability (even in animal form) and required min-maxing to get anything resembling DPS benchmarks (it was a controller, not a dps or defender).

[Psyren]

Still not quite over this.

What is the difference between Wildshape... and Shillelagh. Two attacks at level 5... and if you are Moon Druid, a Bonus Action unarmed strike... maybe an extra AC if you have Dex 14 or lower AND Wis 20. 10ft movement speed. Better stats for Grappling...

If I were a vanilla Fighter... I'd have higher AC, higher HP, more damage as a base. Slightly slower... no bonus unarmed strike.

There just isn't enough there. It just feels so... boring.

I think moving to a unified stat-block makes a lot of sense... just not the ones provided I think?

I'd like some animalistic abilities to go with the statblocks yeah. A charge, or web, or leap etc. Especially if they take away all racial.


I Suspect that you have no personal experience with at least one of those. Using the Druid Class is one the worst and least accurate examples you could use for the 4th Edition = World of Warcraft (of that period) Argument.


The World of Warcraft "feral" druid was a large sack of hit points that ran into melee then stood in one place spamming the same single attack ability (Maul) almost exclusively. It had Negligible Damage Avoidance, no useful cooldowns (while in form) and managed to become less effective in that role as it gained levels. Wait a minute... Isn't that the current 5e Moon Druid???

5e Edition Moon Druid = World of Warcraft ???? /sarcasm

Ha! :smallbiggrin:

[Theodoxus]

I Suspect that you have no personal experience with at least one of those. Using the Druid Class is one the worst and least accurate examples you could use for the 4th Edition = World of Warcraft (of that period) Argument.


The World of Warcraft "feral" druid was a large sack of hit points that ran into melee then stood in one place spamming the same single attack ability (Maul) almost exclusively. It had Negligible Damage Avoidance, no useful cooldowns (while in form) and managed to become less effective in that role as it gained levels. Wait a minute... Isn't that the current 5e Moon Druid???

5e Edition Moon Druid = World of Warcraft ???? /sarcasm

ok...

Actually, I was addressing the flower power healing spell, if you want to get specific. It's a straight up ripoff of Effervescence. And having played Druid from 2005 to 2021 as my main in WoW (mostly as a healer), I know exactly how the class worked.

Shall I point to the thousands of threads and blogs that poopoo'd 4th Ed as the MMORPG of TTRPGs? While I never saw it that way, it was a pretty hefty divergence from 3rd Ed.

[Psyren]

Shall I point to the thousands of threads and blogs that poopoo'd 4th Ed as the MMORPG of TTRPGs? While I never saw it that way, it was a pretty hefty divergence from 3rd Ed.

None of which are relevant to OneD&D, so no need.

[Theodoxus]

None of which are relevant to OneD&D, so no need.

Really?!?

This is gonna be a very fun year of gaslighting about how apparently D&DOne is not becoming more video-gamey, while clearly becoming more video-gamey.

Cool cool cool.

[Psyren]

Really?!?

This is gonna be a very fun year of gaslighting about how apparently D&DOne is not becoming more video-gamey, while clearly becoming more video-gamey.

Cool cool cool.

Putting aside that I don't see "video game" (Gasp! Horror!) as an expletive the way some others around here do, it's not "gaslighting" to point out that the comparison of 3.5e->4e is utterly specious.

[animorte]

It seems to me that the Druid stat blocks need the Ardling treatment (sans removal).

Ardling V1 was thematic garbage.
Ardling V1.1 actually including some thematic differences.

[windgate]

ok...

Actually, I was addressing the flower power healing spell, if you want to get specific. It's a straight up ripoff of Effervescence. And having played Druid from 2005 to 2021 as my main in WoW (mostly as a healer), I know exactly how the class worked.

Shall I point to the thousands of threads and blogs that poopoo'd 4th Ed as the MMORPG of TTRPGs? While I never saw it that way, it was a pretty hefty divergence from 3rd Ed.

When you say Efference, I'm assuming you are actually referring to tranquility. IIRC Tranquility was a channeled (ie Concentation) spell that created an AOE heal over time effect with a long cooldown. I suppose both "spells" are AOE with limited usage but that is a real stretch.

Druid was also my main class from when I started (in classic) all the way until Lich King. I actually never would have joined TTRPG's is it was not for that game.

You are absolutely welcome to point to as many comparative articles as you want. However, I am not denying there is a strong correlation between the two systems. What I am doing, is calling you out making a poor argument for it. That being said, you are talking to one of the people who actually preferred 4th Edition over both 3e and 5e. Id probably still be playing it, if WOTC had not killed the online database and character builder.

[Snowbluff]

I actually don't mind the combat efficacy of wildshape getting a look at. I think that it should maintain utility, of course, but druid is a pretty awful experience when you're not casting a leveled spell. Most druids don't get good cantrips or abilities, and so in my view wildshape should be a replacement for cantrips, an ability you can use for situations that don't warrant a full slot. Probably my biggest complaint is that I love diving for new and varied options in alternate books, so I would prefer an option to scale actual animals rather than generic forms.

[Atranen]

They explicitly address this in the document:

"Each of this class’s subclasses represents a body of oaths that a Paladin begins taking upon joining the class. The final oath, taken at 3rd level, is the culmination of a Paladin’s training. Some characters with this class don’t consider themselves true Paladins until they have reached 3rd level and made this oath. For others, the actual swearing of the oath is a formality, an official stamp on what was already true in the Paladin’s heart."

Basically the "Oath" is actually a collection of oaths, which is actually how they also worked in 5e, because every oath had (and still has) multiple "tenets."

This remains one of my biggest complaints about paladin. A 2/18 paladin multiclass can smite harder than any single class paladin but hasn't taken an oath (ok, the *important* oath)? Pass.

Pass on using spell slots from any source for smites incidentally. Or spell slots at all. Give them a limited use per day separate from the spell pool, please.

[Pex]

You really can't call a Druid a full spell caster with melee damage capability since for the vast majority of your career, you're specifically locked out of any casting.

Also, DD spells are hot garbage as a strategy, so Bard getting more "support" spells is not a hindrance at all in it's casting capability.

For those worried about druids being a warrior and spellcaster because of Wild Shape perhaps Moon Druids at least can improve their Animal Form by using spell slots. When they Wild Shape they expend a spell slot. AC = 10 + Wis modifier + spell slot expended, gain THP = 5 x spell slot expended.

Expend a 1st level slot to climb if form able to climb, trip, grapple, 2nd level slot minimum to gain sea forms with swim/breathe water and/or tiny size, spider climb, 3rd level slot minimum for flying animals, venomous animals, 4th level slot minimum for Large size, 5th level slot minimum for Huge size, Elementals

Devil in the details for better wording and exact abilities gained.

[Goobahfish]

I'd like some animalistic abilities to go with the statblocks yeah. A charge, or web, or leap etc. Especially if they take away all racial.

That is basically the direction I went for Wild-shape in my homebrew. Basically you keep your own stats except:
AC (I have damage reduction instead), Weapons (claws, bites, spits), Senses (dark vision, blindsight, tremorsense etc), some bonus temporary HP... and size?

I think some minor changes (a bit like the Tasha summoning spells where you pick your subtype) would pretty much fix this Druid for me. Then you can just improvise more 'subtypes'.

[Waazraath]

Then it shouldn't be a full caster. The two are incompatible if you want a good wild shape class.

This. It is amazing how little they learn from earlier editions, cause this was one of the major, glaring, obvious mistakes in core 3.x (where they gave the druid the most powerful animal companion as well). The same edtion learned btw (master of many forms prestige class) that a full shape-changer without spell-casting could be a very fun, versatile and balanced character.


3.5e had something similar in its PHB2 as a variant option. It was a lot of fun to play as someone who loves Druids but has always hated the clunky ass mess that wildshape consistently is.

Did I mention how amazing it this the designers refuse to learn from earlier editions?



I quick scanned the UA, I'm not impressed. Most of the critique on the Druid I've seen in this thread I agree with, I don't think I would ever play it in its current iteration. As for the Paladin, it was one of the most powerful classes, so I guess some nerfing was in place, but how hard its nova capacity is nerfed is a bit harsh, and it's best class feature (aura of protection) delayed is a shame too. Oh well, the class can take the hit, and ranged and unarmed smites are cool on the other hand.

I extremely dislike that the designers threw the spell lists together in 3 main lists, making classes more samey instead of more unique.

Reasons so far to switch edition: 0.

[Jerrykhor]

Hold up, is the wildshape's Bestial Strike not considered an Unarmed Strike? Because i am looking at the Moon Druid's Quick Attack feature and thought, how would it make sense that you still deal 1+STR damage when you have claws?

[Kane0]

That caught me too, apparently thats to let you shove while wildshaped.

[Hurrashane]

I liked most of what I saw in the new UA. I really don't understand the want/need for moon druids to be better in combat when they're already full casters. Like, they should be somewhere on par to like a swords/valor bard: a support caster that can mix it up in melee if needed. Or comparable to a melee cleric. The wildshape forms having more AC wouldn't be too bad, but I don't think it's super necessary.

I don't get those who say the new wild shape lacks utility, or those that say it's attacks aren't magic. Wild shape being a magic action means that it's magic, right? And if not their 6th level moon druid ability says "Channeling ancient lunar magic, you imbue your Wild Shape forms with power from the Elemental Planes." So that makes at least all their elemental attacks magic, unless somehow elemental planar energy isn't magical.

[Kane0]

I don't get those who say the new wild shape lacks utility, or those that say it's attacks aren't magic. Wild shape being a magic action means that it's magic, right? And if not their 6th level moon druid ability says "Channeling ancient lunar magic, you imbue your Wild Shape forms with power from the Elemental Planes." So that makes at least all their elemental attacks magic, unless somehow elemental planar energy isn't magical.

Not magic as in you cant break through resistance/immunity to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage from nonmagical weapons. Like what monk level 6 gives you, or the 5e moon druid.

[tokek]

*leather armor+Shield+12 dex = 14 AC available from starting equipment alone. To get that using these rules, you would need 18 Wisdom. Picking up studded leather (Since "Druids can't wear metal" isn't anywhere on here) is pretty easy, at which point you need 20 wisdom to not lose AC.

Under old rules, losing AC to wildshape was fine because the new form came with a giant hit point buffer, so you didn't mind taking damage. Here, unless I'm misreading it, you keep your current hit point totals. So unless you're at 20 wis, you're survivability will probably just go down in Animal Form.


I guess it's better than other options if you're out of spells and just want to wade into the fight, but Cantrips kind of solved the "Caster doesn't want to use slots" problem.

Cast Barkskin. Which is suddenly a spell you might want to cast. If I play test this IÂ’ll be trying that option.

I suspect a lot of play test for this will suffer from trying to play like a 5e moon druid which wonÂ’t work out well. But 5e moon druid is pretty busted at low levels both for combat power and utility (if the player knows the MM well).

[Sir Chuckles]

I'm in the camp of not requiring MM knowledge and playing "no, I totally know what this thing is" for Wildshape, but I do agree that they kinda ran it into the ground. Frankly, I feel that Druid has always been a bit difficult to justify as something totally separate from Cleric and Paladin. Doubly so now that nature/fey Cleric and Paladins have been heavily supported rather than shunted to "play Druid". Wildshape is, by far, their most defining feature. With it being so painfully banal it doesn't make me particularly happy or want to play one. Thankfully, it's empty enough that any number of minor suggestions - some offered and some I've seen elsewhere - would really be all it takes to smooth it out.

Paladin... I actually kinda like. Some are annoyed that it lost its BIG BEEF BLAST via nova'ing smite, but I kinda view not having that as a good thing, especially since the minor buffs and rejiggers it got spreads out a lot of its abilities and the class stuff to do and tons of minor resources that can aid in stuff and things. It traded nova for sustain and - by the opening of Fighting Styles and looser wording on abilities - variety. And I like that. Paladin got a lot more interesting.

...but darn what I assume to be an oversight with Radiant Strikes not working with Unarmed Strikes. Since smite works with them, I am assuming it's an oversight.

In short:
Druid = Made blander both mechanically and in identity. Needs further work.
Paladin = Actually in a pretty good place but just needs an editor pass.

---

As a further aside, I think this frequent "we're changing/nerfing this specifically as a nerf to multiclass" has been hurting things that don't have to do with multiclassing. I feel like mass-nerfing low-level characters and being constantly worried about dips is a "set the house on fire to get the spider" kinda deal.

[tokek]

For those worried about druids being a warrior and spellcaster because of Wild Shape perhaps Moon Druids at least can improve their Animal Form by using spell slots. When they Wild Shape they expend a spell slot. AC = 10 + Wis modifier + spell slot expended, gain THP = 5 x spell slot expended.

Expend a 1st level slot to climb if form able to climb, trip, grapple, 2nd level slot minimum to gain sea forms with swim/breathe water and/or tiny size, spider climb, 3rd level slot minimum for flying animals, venomous animals, 4th level slot minimum for Large size, 5th level slot minimum for Huge size, Elementals

Devil in the details for better wording and exact abilities gained.

Spells exist to do these things. Other than trying to give druids a head start in the action economy why would we need this alternative mechanism? Or do you just want druids to have better versions of this than equivalent spells - if so why?

Need more HP? Cast Aid. Need better AC, try Barkskin.

[Aimeryan]

Quick first impression.

Wow they nerfed Wild Shape hard. I expect them to get mixed reaction - lots of comments from people who love this and people who hate this. The only thing to stand out to bother me is I find Moon Druid at least, if not Wild Shape in general, needs an AC boost in Animal Form. You're giving up spellcasting to fight. You need to be able to survive the fight.

They nerfed and buffed Paladin a little. Took away here, gave stuff there. As a single class it's fine, but say goodbye to multiclassing more than two levels in it. People were willing to go to 6 for Aura of Protection and be heavy warrior. Are they now willing to go to level 7? Will they not go to level 8 for the ASI since they're at 7? By coincidence I recently have a personal bias in that I joined a new 5E campaign where I will take 6 levels of Paladin then multiclass Bard, so this change is an eye-twist. I'm not overtly bothered, but I don't think Paladin 6/CH Spellcaster 14 was such an abomination that needed nerfing. Now everyone multiclassing Paladin will be doing Paladin 2/Spellcaster 18 which I think is the more egregious for those who are bothered by such things.

Watchers 7 is pretty popular, usually with a mix of Warlock (Undead) 2 and a Sorc (Divine) X. The Watchers aura is very powerful since going first is often like getting an extra round in a 2 or 3 round combat - as well as being able to set up the field before the enemy gets to react.

The interesting change here is that you can now go a ranged Paladin with having to grab the Warlock 2 dip.

[Hael]

As a further aside, I think this frequent "we're changing/nerfing this specifically as a nerf to multiclass" has been hurting things that don't have to do with multiclassing. I feel like mass-nerfing low-level characters and being constantly worried about dips is a "set the house on fire to get the spider" kinda deal.

Subclass at 3 is frankly awful. In the previous UA we playtested, we tried playing lvl2 but thought it sucked, so the DM simply autoleveled everyone to 3. Which is what I suspect everyone will do in practice.

And thats unfortunate, b/c sometimes setting up backstories in those super early (and dangerous) levels is quite fun.

We havent seen the bestiary yet, but i’m getting the feeling that PCs are generally nerfed relative to 5.0, as it feels like a lvl 10 character in the old version is equivalent to a lvl 12-13 in the new version, so it feels a bit like a rescaling. So there is a sense in which a lvl 3 is kinda like a lvl1.

[Aimeryan]

I liked most of what I saw in the new UA. I really don't understand the want/need for moon druids to be better in combat when they're already full casters. Like, they should be somewhere on par to like a swords/valor bard: a support caster that can mix it up in melee if needed. Or comparable to a melee cleric. The wildshape forms having more AC wouldn't be too bad, but I don't think it's super necessary.

I don't get those who say the new wild shape lacks utility, or those that say it's attacks aren't magic. Wild shape being a magic action means that it's magic, right? And if not their 6th level moon druid ability says "Channeling ancient lunar magic, you imbue your Wild Shape forms with power from the Elemental Planes." So that makes at least all their elemental attacks magic, unless somehow elemental planar energy isn't magical.

A lot of people who want to a shapeshifter aren't looking for the spellcaster route - in that case they could just play the spellcaster options. The Swords/Valor Bard is the gish fantasy, which is quite different and it does allow them to wield both at the same time. For the Moon Druid, it is an either/or until level 18. The new level 13 Alternating Forms will make this a lot more friendly, but its still not full on both at the same time.

I don't think anyone suggests Moon Druids at the moment don't need changing; the wierdly bumpy spikes should be smoothed out. Part of this would be tackling the bad Wildshape scaling as the levels progress, which might mean spellcasting is muted in some way to compensate. The problem with the UA is that it seems to lean more into the casting and less into the Wildshape, which really curtails the flavour and enjoyment of that playstyle. The fact that the new Wildshape is about as interesting as a lumpy rock is probably the worst point, though.

[Arkhios]

A few picks:

Wild Shape - While I can somewhat relate to the disappointment that you don't get to choose an existing animal, the change enables more variation, and frankly, the results are nearly same anyway. As a bonus it incentivizes druids to keep Wisdom their highest score, which isn't a bad thing, all things considered.

Divine Smite - Hands down, it was to be expected to be restricted as a once per turn ability. What I personally didn't expect to see is that now you can make divine smite with any weapon or unarmed strike; even with a ranged weapon.

Paladin Aura of Protection being shoved up to 7th level was an interesting though not entirely unexpected move, considering subclass feature level changes in general. What was more interesting, however, was that they're clearly moving towards having only one Aura, that evolves in different ways depending on your level and subclass. This is an elegant change, and one that I approve, especially as someone who feels that Paladin is their "Thing". I don't mind seeing the subclass aura being shoved up to 10th level either, to be entirely honest.

[diplomancer]

So, I haven't read the document yet, but I DID read/skim all of the comments, and wanted just to point out something about the complaint "Druids now only get features that change their Wild shape". I have some interesting news for people who think that's a bad thing. 5e Druids only get features that change their Wild Shape. The exceptions are two ribbons: Druidic, at level 1, and Timeless Body, at level 18. Maybe Archdruid at 20th; it is mostly about wild shape, but there are important benefits that are not about it.


Honestly, one reason I don't like Druids is how sparse their features are; they're as bad as Wizards in that regard, except Wizard's spellcasting is varied enough to compensate, while Druid spellcasting, though undeniably very powerful, is over-reliant on a few powerful choices.

[Snowbluff]

I will say I agree with the complaints about balancing around multiclassing. It's a variant rule, so I don't believe it should be shaping any decision making on individual classes. I'm fine with a bunch of hexblade dips, they don't affect my games at all, and I'd rather have a bunch of people dipping hexblade so people who dip for fun or weird options can still have that be a viable choice.


So, I haven't read the document yet, but I DID read/skim all of the comments, and wanted just to point out something about the complaint "Druids now only get features that change their Wild shape". I have some interesting news for people who think that's a bad thing. 5e Druids only get features that change their Wild Shape. The exceptions are two ribbons: Druidic, at level 1, and Timeless Body, at level 18. Maybe Archdruid at 20th; it is mostly about wild shape, but there are important benefits that are not about it.


Honestly, one reason I don't like Druids is how sparse their features are; they're as bad as Wizards in that regard, except Wizard's spellcasting is varied enough to compensate, while Druid spellcasting, though undeniably very powerful, is over-reliant on a few powerful choices.

Precisely. I rarely decide on playing druids because their class specific options often end up being lackluster. I think some of the later subclasses help, but mostly they're just casters.

[skyth]

One thing they changed about inspiration that no one has commented on so far is that you choose to use the inspiration to grant yourself advantage AFTER you roll the original die. Effectively, it's a re-roll now so might be used more.

[Tanarii]

Has anyone managed to find where Druids make up for the (needed) loss of Wildshape HPs?

Or are they just squishies like Bards now?

[Aimeryan]

Has anyone managed to find where Druids make up for the (needed) loss of Wildshape HPs?

Or are they just squishies like Bards now?

I believe the discussion is that the Abjuration spells are meant to plug this gap, however, I find that problematic on several points; 1) spell slots used here are not used elsewhere, which means you are trading arguably your most powerful resource to be able to go into melee and hit a little harder; 2) if you are using Concentration on this you are not using it on the more powerful Concentration spells that Druid is arguably balanced around; 3) this doesn't feel very Wildshape like and far more like a Wizard shoring up their defences with spells.

[Psyren]

The best form now is probably Sky, because Multiattack + Flyby lets you be the best skirmisher in the game, and the lack of bonus HP don't matter.

Land and Sea need either higher AC or more HP, preferably both.

[Dr.Samurai]

Why do Paladins get any Fighting Style, and access to Fighting Style feats, if that is a warrior thing, and the only reason the Ranger got it is because "experts steal stuff from other classes"? So much for that lol.

Also, Sacred Weapon seems like too much at twice per short rest. That means if you have two encounters per rest, the devotion paladin will always have +Cha to attacks on top of their normal attack bonus.

Finally, the capstone seems pretty weak since Channel Divinity gets two uses per short rest. Chances are you're going to have a use left. (Actually, just realized it lacks the "if you don't have a use left" language we have currently. So that means every encounter you'd be able to use Abjure Enemy. That's fine, I suppose.)

[Aimeryan]

The best form now is probably Sky, because Multiattack + Flyby lets you be the best skirmisher in the game, and the lack of bonus HP don't matter.

Land and Sea need either higher AC or more HP, preferably both.

Usually the speed is an issue for this type of play, since you need to get both in AND out far enough away that the enemy can't just move up to you afterwards. In this case, flying means you can move vertically to and away - so, that does pretty much remove the melee concern (unless the enemy also has flying, in which case this low damage, low survivability form is now a liability).

Biggest problem is that the damage is pretty poor. Since you have better survivability by just remaining ranged, it kind of begs the question of what you are meant to be gaining.

[Gignere]

The best form now is probably Sky, because Multiattack + Flyby lets you be the best skirmisher in the game, and the lack of bonus HP don't matter.

Land and Sea need either higher AC or more HP, preferably both.

It’s tough to balance though anything more than 1 hp per Druid level and you are looking at base hps higher than a fighter. Anything more than +PB to AC you are looking at AC above what fighters can get without investing resources in it.

This might mean fighters need more love but currently there just isn’t much room to buff the moon Druid without it being comparable to a fighter while still being a full caster.

[Ionathus]

Honestly, one reason I don't like Druids is how sparse their features are; they're as bad as Wizards in that regard, except Wizard's spellcasting is varied enough to compensate, while Druid spellcasting, though undeniably very powerful, is over-reliant on a few powerful choices.

I complained about this on a (different) forum in my early D&D days and got roasted for it. Built a Human Moon Druid for my first PC and then four levels in, looked around going..."wait, does it feel like everybody else has a ton more minor utility features than I do?" Very gratifying to see somebody else saying the same thing.

Base Druid class really only has its spells, plus Wild Shape for utility. Disappointing to see this version strips that utility and turns Wild Shape into "Placeholder Combat Animal" for marginal damage increase for most of the early game. By the time you get utility back in your Wild Shape, you and the rest of the team are already Tier 2 or Tier 3 and have way better options for exploration, stealth, and utility.

[Amechra]

Why do Paladins get any Fighting Style, and access to Fighting Style feats, if that is a warrior thing, and the only reason the Ranger got it is because "experts steal stuff from other classes"? So much for that lol.

Probably because the whole arcane/divine/expert/warrior set-up is hilariously artificial, and doesn't actually line up very well with D&D's classes, which are more like:



Categories
5e Classes


Arcane
Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard


Divine
Cleric, Druid


Expert
Rogue


Warriors
Barbarian, Fighter


Hybrids
Bard (Arcane/Expert), Paladin (Divine/Warrior),
Ranger (Expert/Warrior)


I Dunno?
Artificer, Monk



I mean, you could shoe-horn the four core classes that don't fit neatly into the categories in there, but you'd have to change them WAY more heavily than the design team seems willing to do. If they were really committed to making the grid work, they'd have to fiddle with the classes way harder than they seem comfortable with.

For example, maybe Expert classes could get Expertise Dice that they can spend to boost skill checks, with each class getting a different take on using them:



Bards and Rangers are both half-casters (because sure, why not?)
Everyone who gets Expertise Dice can spend them on ability checks they're proficient in. There are feats that give you extra uses for Expertise Dice.
Bards get to lend out Expertise Dice (Bardic Inspiration!) and can spend them to boost their own spellcasting.
Rangers get to use Expertise Dice to improve their combat abilities —think the old Monster Hunter UA.
Rogues get to be more consistent with Expertise Dice, meaning that they can use them all willy-nilly.


Or something like that.

[Jervis]

Putting aside that I don't see "video game" (Gasp! Horror!) as an expletive the way some others around here do, it's not "gaslighting" to point out that the comparison of 3.5e->4e is utterly specious.

I mean just in this doc you have the “magic action” spammed all over the document (something that almost certainly exists to make the game easier to run for ai assisted VTTs). The Druid transformation is pretty paired down to one of a handful of statblocks (something I actually support to a degree even if they overdid it here). And of course the old movement rules (honestly don’t know if those are still in play) which were written to be easy to program. If credible leaks are to be believed, it is quite literally being designed to make it easier to run on a VTT, which is the same thing that 4E did. You seem to be trying awfully hard to convince yourself and others that this isn’t going to be 4E 2 electric boogaloo my dude, especially when the OGL crisis and VTT centered design is so similar to the exact thing that 4E did.

[False God]

Correct the monster math, correct the wild shape.

I mean fundamentally all the fears about Wild Shape, and the reason 4E, PF, PF2 and apparently D&D Baked are going in the "fixed form" rather than "stat stealing" direction is that the designers cannot get a handle on how to build monsters with a solid underlying math. And it doesn't help their efforts that half their "monsters" are just humanoids with baked-in classes.

Even just reevaluating the basic animals that a Druid could potentially Wild Shape into would go a long way to making it more balanced. Heck, if they wanted to make a specific list of animals that Wild Shape allows access too, rather than "any animal", that'd be a fine solution too. It might even make Wild Shape feel a bit better, if at every level or every other level, you got access to specific new creatures, rather than gating certain movement modes or sizes.

[KorvinStarmast]

All of the wildshape discourse here is missing the most important part IMO, which is that 10th level Moon Druids can no longer blow all their resources to turn into a Fire Tornado. Yes. That sucks. I liked the elemental option, although it cost two uses.
Straight-up the coolest class feature in the game and they replaced it with *checks notes* +1d6 elemental damage. Major nerf.

Hey did anyone notice Druids can wear metal now? They lost medium armor proficiency though. How much light armor is made of metal?

I have no doubt that Evoker will still be the basic Wizard. Which makes sense to me.

- Can wear metal now, cool
How much light armor is metal?

Wildshaping/Moon Druid
- Your AC and HP don't improve, so you're essentially trading spellcasting for perception and WIS-SADding your STR/DEX for checks and melee attacks. That's a pretty mediocre trade for combat purposes, and a lot of utility as been level gated (see below). Moon druids shape as a bonus action still.
- Your creature type doesn't change
- You can still be a serviceable mount
- There are no ways to get most beast features like trample, charge, pounce, poison, echolocation, webwalking, etc.
- Cant climb, swim, fly or tiny until levels 5, 7, 9 and 11 respectively
- Your beast attacks never become magical The bolded part is where I think they over nerfed wild shape.

Paladin
- Lay On Hands can't fix Diseases now, I guess too many people complained about Paladins
Yeah, I will be mentioning that in the feedback.

- Smites can be done with ranged weapons and unarmed, but are also limited to once per turn and can't also cast a spell Not even as a bonus action, like misty step? Hmm, as I think through this, I like it even less, but I get the "used a spell slot to do this so you have used your spell slot for this round. Not sure I like it.

- Aura of Protection moved back one level
- Aura of Courage moved back three levels
Don't like either of those.

- Restoring Touch is like Cleansing Touch, but does conditions rather than spells and is moved back one level. fine.
Moving back a level is not fine for me. Late game features rarely get reached.

- Auras getting bigger is moved forward one level
Yay.

- Sacred Weapon is a bonus action use of your Channel, good improvement Agree. I already changed that in our Wednesday game.

- Smite of Protection sounds like an oxymoron, but it hands out THP when smite which is fine Way weaker than an 'always on' aura.

- Find Familiar/Steed have stat blocks like Tasha's summons, each with one neat ability, fineAgree. Also drops to 0 HP then 1 HP then escapes.

[Aimeryan]

It’s tough to balance though anything more than 1 hp per Druid level and you are looking at base hps higher than a fighter. Anything more than +PB to AC you are looking at AC above what fighters can get without investing resources in it.

This might mean fighters need more love but currently there just isn’t much room to buff the moon Druid without it being comparable to a fighter while still being a full caster.

It the generic problem that the typical melee classes don't actually get much more in the way of defence (usually just a couple of HP) than the 'squishy' classes. In fact, a quick dip for Medium Armour and Shield proficiency lets casters beat them on AC (the melee classes get punished for using a Shield, and of course then there are defensive spells, as well as being able to just Dodge while still being effective due to ongoing Concentration spells). The HP part is minor enough that a single low cost heal out of combat is the difference.

Moon Druids and Barbarians are the exception to this rule in 5e; Barbarians get resistance, and Moon Druids get chunks more health.

It is often considered that Fighters and Paladins are tanky, but that more visual idea than a mechanical one. The way to survive in 5e is to either kill the enemy fast, lock the enemy down with control, or to stay at ranged. Alternatively, have a Barbarian or Moon Druid out front absorbing hits if the DM plays ball.

The question for the D&DONE Moon Druid here is, what do they gain for going into Wild Shape, what do they lose, and does this pay off? It seems to be a little more damage is gained at the cost of being cast into melee while being fragile. I would rather just stay back and spam cantrips.

[Oramac]

Clearly I need to not sleep if I want to keep up with these threads!

Anyway, the more I think about it, I'm ok with Smite being once per turn. I still disagree with the no-spellcasting part, and I am definitely not ok with it being opened up to ranged weapons.

Part of the paladin's kit is the heavy armor frontline bruiser. You trade away [good] ranged options in favor of amazing melee options. With the change, you can make a ranged paladin that slings damage better than the actual ranged classes. Why even bother playing a rogue or fighter with a bow when you can smite from 600 feet away? Plus, that doesn't really feel like a "smite" to me. I'm 2 football fields away from something and smiting it? Nah. Not a fan.

[KorvinStarmast]

DRUID
I really think people are downplaying how badly nerfed Druids are, even when acknowledging their getting heavily nerfed. :smalleek: I find a lot of your review to have merit, here goes my reply:

•No, Wild Shape isn't losing some, or even a lot, of utility - it's losing 100% of it's utility! For an ability that was 80% about it's utility, losing all of it is totally unreasonable. Wanna be a spider? No venomous bite, no webbing, no spider climbing. Wanna be a wolf? No tripping. Wanna be a rhino? No charge/gore. Wanna be a bat? No blindsight. Wanna be a snake? No constricting or venomous bite. Wanna be a big cat? No pounce. You. Get. Nothing. for shifting into an "animal." Nothing. Amen. I will mention that in the feedback. I think they went too far.

•Wild Shape is buffed to be level 1 instead of level 2... kinda. Arial form is nerfed by one level. Aquatic form is nerfed by 3 levels. Tiny form is nerfed by nine levels?! What the actual... This is entirely unreasonable; as in, I can see zero reason for this change. Tiny animals require tier 3 levels? They MUST be joking? Nope, just spiking the coffee with Everclear(TM). :smallbiggrin:

•In general, "10+Wis=AC" is going to be a slight buff to Animal Form AC, but that still doesn't make it a good AC. And with the total removal of Animal HP you're now faced with the reality that being in melee is not worth it.
That is going in the feedback as well.

•Wild Shape, by default, is a Magic Action? Does this mean your primary class ability can be counterspelled or dispelled? Seriously? Apparently so, and won't work in an anti magic field. Might want to discuss that in the feedback.

•The Stat changes for Animal Forms aren't actually as meaningful as they look on paper. For Land Form, you treat STR/DEX as equal to WIS... but for STR that's about the same benefit as casting Shillelagh. As for DEX, you don't get to add it to your AC and none of your attacks are Finesse, so the only benefit you're getting is Dex-based skill checks and Reflex saves. If we fix this to add dex to AC maybe that's enough of an improvement? I also want 3x Proficiency bonus Temp HP in Wild Shape form. More HP is Iconic {Hey Crawford, I've got yer Iconic Right Here! :smallfurious:} Druid wild shape stuff, and I quote;


Upon reaching the 5th Circle druids then gain the power to shape change (as previously mentioned in GREYHAWK with regard to the Druid-type monster), and when changing from one form to another they lose from 10% to 60% of any damage previously sustained; in addition they are not affected by the charm spells of woodland and water creatures such as nixies and dryads. Roll a d6, multiply by 10, multiply by damage taken, restore that ... yeah, a bit fiddly, and Temp HP is IMO a better way to handle this. But, "recover half of your lost HP when you change form" would be even simpler.

You don't get the STR adjustment for Aquatic Forms? My croc, or whale, or whatever, isn't stronger than my base humanoid form? That's outright ridiculous. They are Wizards of the Coast. They hate Fighters. They Hate Barbs. They hate STR. Hmm, maybe that should not be blue text ...

• If I turn into a Cat at level 1-4, I can't climb like a Cat. I have to wait until level 5? Make that make sense. "You are doing it wrong. If you wanted that, play a tabaxi!" says the dev team :smallyuk:

• The removal of the restriction on metallic armor is long overdue.
How much light armor is metallic?

They've never explained it in any meaningful way
It's Iconic, see Eldritch Wizardry. :smalltongue:

• Alternating Forms is actually a nice and meaningful ability, that the 2014 Druid would absolutely love. Unfortunately, the massive nerfs to Wild Shape make this all but meaningless. Yes.

The fun of Wild Shape is the new ways you can interact with the world, and that is entirely gone from the Druid, and I hate it. Bingo.

•Sidenote - Every Animal Form gets Darkvision? God I'm so tired of the absolutely joke that Darkvision is in 5e. Just give it to literally everyone and everything. We're almost there already as it is! *Snicker*

-Quick Attack. You can bonus-action Unarmed Strike? Is this a typo? Is it supposed to be bonus-action Beastial Strike? A Druid gains no Unarmed Strike benefits. Why is "1+str" a meaningful mechanic here? I'll suggest the "bonus action bestial strike" in the feedback, thanks for the idea. :smallsmile:
Swift Transformation needs clarification? Yes.

• Elemental Wild Shape - It's... fine. The ability to change into an actual elemental was just flat-out better, so this is a downright nerf, but I suppose that's just the name of the game for Druid. Unfortunate. (Notably missing, as already pointed out several times, is the ability to hit as a magic attack. That's a serious problem for every Druid and a glaring hole in it's combat progress, IMO.) Yes.

•Elemental Strike - Generic bonus damage. Lack of magic-counting attack remains. Effective enough but pretty boring. But easier to program in a video game. :smallwink: (See Diablo II Paladin elemental auras for an example ...)

• Thousand Forms - If you can Alter Self whenever you want forever, why can't you Wild Shape whenever you want forever? Just... just do it already. It's not good enough to gate this hard. Never has been. Will mention that in the feedback.

PALADIN -Banishing Smite: I hate the way they're treating Banishment, and this is no different. I have already mentioned that, and this will be in the feedback again.

Depends on the cooldowns and toolbars *cackle*

This is gonna be a very fun year of gaslighting about how apparently D&DOne is not becoming more video-gamey, while clearly becoming more video-gamey. Indeed.

When they Wild Shape they expend a spell slot. AC = 10 + Wis modifier + spell slot expended, gain THP = 5 x spell slot expended. Fiddly, but there's a germ of a good idea here.

I'd rather add dex to AC and have 2x PB Temp HP added when changing form. (Simpler)

[Psyren]

How much light armor is metal?


None but Scale Mail is a feat away, a level 1 feat at that.

[Amechra]

the designers cannot get a handle on how to build monsters with a solid underlying math

This argument is kinda like if you said that a pickup truck makes a terrible racecar because car companies are bad at making cars.

Monsters and player characters fill very different mechanical purposes during combat, and so the designers design them differently. Caveat emptor if you try to use a monster as a PC or vice-versa.

[tokek]

Has anyone managed to find where Druids make up for the (needed) loss of Wildshape HPs?

Or are they just squishies like Bards now?

They are full casters. They have spells for that.

Or should they continue to have stuff better than spells while also being full casters? Because if you look at the level 1-7 optimisation discussion Moon Druids are very prominent and a fair few contributors think they are so good they effectively invalidate all martial classes in that range.

[Gignere]

It the generic problem that the typical melee classes don't actually get much more in the way of defence (usually just a couple of HP) than the 'squishy' classes. In fact, a quick dip for Medium Armour and Shield proficiency lets casters beat them on AC (the melee classes get punished for using a Shield, and of course then there are defensive spells, as well as being able to just Dodge while still being effective due to ongoing Concentration spells). The HP part is minor enough that a single low cost heal out of combat is the difference.

Moon Druids and Barbarians are the exception to this rule in 5e; Barbarians get resistance, and Moon Druids get chunks more health.

It is often considered that Fighters and Paladins are tanky, but that more visual idea than a mechanical one. The way to survive in 5e is to either kill the enemy fast, lock the enemy down with control, or to stay at ranged. Alternatively, have a Barbarian or Moon Druid out front absorbing hits if the DM plays ball.

The question for the D&DONE Moon Druid here is, what do they gain for going into Wild Shape, what do they lose, and does this pay off? It seems to be a little more damage is gained at the cost of being cast into melee while being fragile. I would rather just stay back and spam cantrips.

Barbarians only get resistance when they rage and given the limits on how many rages they get per long rest for a long time barbarians fight in roughly half the encounters basically without resistance. So you can’t really buff moon druids to be better than a non raging barbarian. Once again maybe this means barbs need more love but hard to get the moon Druid to even close to where they are now without outshining the melee martials. I think the better balancing fulcrum might be better buff spells that complements their animal forms. So moon Druid + spell use = melee classes using class features.

[Psyren]

They are full casters. They have spells for that.

Or should they continue to have stuff better than spells while also being full casters? Because if you look at the level 1-7 optimisation discussion Moon Druids are very prominent and a fair few contributors think they are so good they effectively invalidate all martial classes in that range.

Yeah I don't mind moon druids being nerfed at low levels. A level 2 druid being able to outperform a level 4 barbarian never made sense to me. And Healing Word is on the Primal List so Moon Druids still get to heal themselves as a bonus action.

With that said, max AC of 15 (which is going to be a max of 14 for the first 7 levels) is still too low for a frontliner with no bonus HP, even a full-casting one that can self-heal. Compare that to a frontline Cleric or Bard.

[windgate]

{snip} If credible leaks are to be believed, it is quite literally being designed to make it easier to run on a VTT, which is the same thing that 4E did. You seem to be trying awfully hard to convince yourself and others that this isn’t going to be 4E 2 electric boogaloo my dude, especially when the OGL crisis and VTT centered design is so similar to the exact thing that 4E did.

Could you please explain why you think functionality with a VTT is a bad thing? Just because 4e did it, does not inherently mean something is bad. It's kinda like hating on all gas tanks soley because the Ford Pinto had an explosive one.

There are a significant number of people who do not have the opportunity to play the game in person using paper (and some don't want to). The world is moving towards online and digital formats. The RPG market is already struggling, demanding that a company ignore market trends is a non-starter.

[Atranen]

Could you please explain why you think functionality with a VTT is a bad thing? Just because 4e did it, does not inherently mean something is bad. It's kinda like hating on all gas tanks soley because the Ford Pinto had an explosive one.

There are a significant number of people who do not have the opportunity to play the game in person using paper (and some don't want to). The world is moving towards online and digital formats. The RPG market is already struggling, demanding that a company ignore market trends is a non-starter.

VTTs aren't bad and functionality with VTT isn't bad; all else equal, it's better to have functionality.

But not all else is equal here, and they seem to be making design choices that make the game worse for the sake of VTT compatibility. (Ok, we're speculating there, but there's reason to find it plausible). Hence the dislike.

[Gignere]

Could you please explain why you think functionality with a VTT is a bad thing? Just because 4e did it, does not inherently mean something is bad. It's kinda like hating on all gas tanks soley because the Ford Pinto had an explosive one.

There are a significant number of people who do not have the opportunity to play the game in person using paper (and some don't want to). The world is moving towards online and digital formats. The RPG market is already struggling, demanding that a company ignore market trends is a non-starter.

There’s probably more people playing online than in person now. My current group is a DM from Canada, one player in Ohio, another in Kentucky, I’m from New York, another plays in China, two is from somewhere out west in the US that’s a running joke them not telling us exactly where.

[Bane's Wolf]

Holy crap this moves fast...
I agree with a lot of what is said in this thread, but trying to keep up with this conversation is rather difficult while also having to work :smalleek:


They are full casters. They have spells for that.

Or should they continue to have stuff better than spells while also being full casters? Because if you look at the level 1-7 optimisation discussion Moon Druids are very prominent and a fair few contributors think they are so good they effectively invalidate all martial classes in that range.

Fully agreed on this.
I think wildshape is cool, but the extra hit points from wildshape does give it more staying power than any other class.
I doubt the designer's original intent was to turn druids into "Bullet(Arrow?) Sponges"

I think the Playtest druid's Moon wildshape turns it into a competent brawler, without overshadowing the martial classes.
It's easy to forget that on top of the Wildshape, the druid is still a full caster, capable of many magical tricks.

I'm also in favour of the Beast statblocks, that grow in strength along with the character, but i'd like to see some way of gaining beastly abilities (trample, poison bites, pounce, constricting, blindsight, etc)

Even something as simple as "take a beast form and add one of these abilities - pick 2 at Level X" to represent the animal you are turning into.

I'll even be on board if some of these "Added abilities" just increase AC, or speed, or HP, to represent tortoise shells, or cheetah speed, or badger toughness

[MoiMagnus]

Could you please explain why you think functionality with a VTT is a bad thing? Just because 4e did it, does not inherently mean something is bad.

I agree the argument was not presented in the best possible way, since it's not an inherent problem and more a "the parts I care the most about in TTRPGs are the parts that are near-impossible to implement correctly in a VTT, hence might be removed by anyone trying to do a VTT integration with less that a AAA budget"

For example, you can no longer bring your knowledges about IRL's animal's poisons, transform to "insert a specific kind of venomous snake" and use the specific poison obtained from it, since now "The appearance you choose has no effect on the form’s capabilities.".

I'm not the kind of player interested by this specific use of the druid's wild shape (in part because I'm not interested by the Druid class), but I can see how someone could love such a flexibility, and how if WotC's goal is to make integration in a VTT easier, those kind of wild-card effect is not welcome anymore.

[Pex]

Spells exist to do these things. Other than trying to give druids a head start in the action economy why would we need this alternative mechanism? Or do you just want druids to have better versions of this than equivalent spells - if so why?

Need more HP? Cast Aid. Need better AC, try Barkskin.

Because there's a resentment that you have to as it stands now and takes more actions to do before you fight. By the time you get your buffs up the combat is half over if not done. My way you're still using up spell slots but they happen immediately. Since the current version lacks animal abilities like poison, tripping, etc., using spell slots still gates them by level but also as a means to provide them, spending a spell slot resource to avoid the Wild Shape melee juggernaut while still being a full caster that some people are bothered by the (Moon) Druid in 5E now.

[Oramac]

trying to keep up with this conversation is rather difficult while also having to work :smalleek:

Same!!


It's easy to forget that on top of the Wildshape, the druid is still a full caster

And I think this is the real crux of the problem.

One cool solution would be to tie Wild Shape and Spellcasting to separate subclasses, and then put the subclass at 1st level. Oh wait, OneD&D already shat on that idea. :smallfurious::smallfurious:

[tokek]

Yeah I don't mind moon druids being nerfed at low levels. A level 2 druid being able to outperform a level 4 barbarian never made sense to me. And Healing Word is on the Primal List so Moon Druids still get to heal themselves as a bonus action.

With that said, max AC of 15 (which is going to be a max of 14 for the first 7 levels) is still too low for a frontliner with no bonus HP, even a full-casting one that can self-heal. Compare that to a frontline Cleric or Bard.

I think Barkskin could do with a tweak but even as it stands that gives you AC 16. Bonus HP could come from Aid and at least that one already scales.

Frontline cleric does not get multi attack (at the same level as martial characters) and BA attack but I agree it does better on AC. Realistically you are probably using the Moon Druid BA to shove prone and then attacking with advantage but I'm sure other tactics will become apparent. I'm not sure what bard is getting that is so much better.

Edit : Forgot how the new Barkskin was going to work because I'm not really sure if they are sticking with it as it was not still in the latest pdf. I think AC is more useful to the druid than THP but maybe I'm wrong on that anyway.

[Hurrashane]

Not magic as in you cant break through resistance/immunity to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage from nonmagical weapons. Like what monk level 6 gives you, or the 5e moon druid.

But elemental wildshape changes your damage to Acid, Fire, Cold, Thunder, or Lightning. So that would get around immunity to non-magical B/P/S damage anyway. Like, it shuts down the damage from the Moon Druid's BA unarmed attack, but your regular bestial strike is now elemental damage which you can even change when you hit. So if you find a creature is immune or resistant you can switch it around.

"While in that form, you have Resistance to the
chosen damage type, and the form’s Bestial
Strike can deal damage of that type rather than
its normal type—with you choosing between the
types when you hit."

[JackPhoenix]

Could you please explain why you think functionality with a VTT is a bad thing? Just because 4e did it, does not inherently mean something is bad. It's kinda like hating on all gas tanks soley because the Ford Pinto had an explosive one.

There are a significant number of people who do not have the opportunity to play the game in person using paper (and some don't want to). The world is moving towards online and digital formats. The RPG market is already struggling, demanding that a company ignore market trends is a non-starter.

Functionality with VTT is a good thing, but making the game worse and more limited to get that functionality... either because something would be too hard to program for VTT or because it would be plainly impossible to do due to the inherent limits of VTT comparet to tabletop....is not. Imagine, for example, if Skyrim on PC didn't have mods, because you don't have mods on Xbox either. There are many, many examples where games wasted their full potential for the sake of cross-platform compability.

[windgate]

At some level perhaps the druid class suffers the same issues as a monk. There are a large number of things people want from the class and not enough design space to make people happy (at least while remaining balanced against the other classes).


I've read through the thread and noticed a trend where people seem to be frustrated that the melee combat abilities of Wild Shape are negated and are required to use spells to stay alive. Others are complaining that the utility usage of wild shape is gone and it's been turned into a weak combat form. You are trying to placate people who want to be highly effective animal warrior in addition to those who want to be full spellcasters.


I wonder if the class would have worked better if permanent animal companions and wildshape were actually spells from the druid spell list rather than separate class features. Unfortunately, I suspect that exploring that option would not even be tolerated (by the community) because it's become one of the IP's sacred cows (I dont know about pre-3e but the pet and wildshape were class feature in 3rd edition as well).


Edit: Random Example

Wildshape:
Transmutation (Concentration)

You transform yourself into the form of a natural beast. Its Ability Scores are X. Also choose 2 attributes from the following list.

When in this form you gain the following Attack ___
Your AC and speed are equal to ___

Higher Spell Levels:
When Cast using a higher level spell slot, you gain a Bonus to (______) equal to the spell slot used for this spell.

Moon Druid: The Spell no longer requires concentration and they get an extra +1 to the efefctive spell level when cast.

[JackPhoenix]

Then it shouldn't be a full caster. The two are incompatible if you want a good wild shape class.

They aren't incompatible if you want good wild shape class. They are incompatible if developer's obsessed with "balance" and unwilling (or unable) to put in more effort to make it work.

[Psyren]

I think Barkskin could do with a tweak but even as it stands that gives you AC 16. Bonus HP could come from Aid and at least that one already scales.

Frontline cleric does not get multi attack (at the same level as martial characters) and BA attack but I agree it does better on AC. Realistically you are probably using the Moon Druid BA to shove prone and then attacking with advantage but I'm sure other tactics will become apparent. I'm not sure what bard is getting that is so much better.

Edit : Forgot how the new Barkskin was going to work because I'm not really sure if they are sticking with it as it was not still in the latest pdf. I think AC is more useful to the druid than THP but maybe I'm wrong on that anyway.

1) New Barkskin is just temp HP - but even if they did stick with the old Barkskin, 16 AC is not nearly enough to frontline, especially since that prevents you from concentrating on anything more useful. And you won't be able to recast it if it drops until level 13 (it's still Transmutation, not Abjuration.)

2) We haven't actually seen the frontline clerics yet (War, Forge etc.) But it doesn't actually matter since they can get more attacks via multiclassing etc. Druid can't, because Multiattack and Extra Attack don't work together. And the frontline Bards like Valor and Swords will most likely get extra attacks built in like they do now, on top of better AC that doesn't need concentration and the ability to heal.

[Snowbluff]

They aren't incompatible if you want good wild shape class. They are incompatible if developer's obsessed with "balance" and unwilling (or unable) to put in more effort to make it work.

Indeed. I see no reason why a class feature shouldn't be good. They might as well just be a blandcaster full of ribbons if there is a major concern... like literally none of the other classes.

[Jerrykhor]

They are full casters. They have spells for that.

Or should they continue to have stuff better than spells while also being full casters? Because if you look at the level 1-7 optimisation discussion Moon Druids are very prominent and a fair few contributors think they are so good they effectively invalidate all martial classes in that range.

Poor argument. You assume all optimisers are the same when they are not. Most of them optimise for DPR or survivability, but the infamous 'coffee sorlock' does not. And most of us do not care what they think. Everyone has heard of the Level 20 Moon Druid with infinite HP thing, but i have played in many level 20 one shots and have not seen that even once.

And so what if Druids get stuff on top of being a full caster? EVERY full caster gets stuff on top of that. Bard gets Expertise, Jack of All Trades and Magical Secrets, Cleric gets Armour/Weapon Proficiency and Channel Divinity, Sorcerers get Metamagic/Flexible Casting. And Druid should be screwed over because why?

The biggest sin of this dump of a UA is not that the nerfs make it weak, its that the nerfs make it unfun to play. To gate low-power utility as a high level feature shows how utterly dumb they are at game design.

[Aimeryan]

And I think this is the real crux of the problem.

One cool solution would be to tie Wild Shape and Spellcasting to separate subclasses, and then put the subclass at 1st level. Oh wait, OneD&D already shat on that idea. :smallfurious::smallfurious:

Yup, and it was identified a few pages back. The problem is this; if they are full caster and a full martial then they could blow through encounters with all their spells and then where ran out just Wildshape and be no worse off. What kind of stops them in 5e is that the spells aren't great early levels and you don't get many, so Wildshape being great here is kind of OK, and then due to abyssmal scaling spells get really good and plentiful at higher levels while Wildshape damage becomes lackluster and acts just as filler while combat plays out after casting a big spell - just like cantrips do for other casters.

The problem with the D&DONE version is that it is starting that cantrip role straight away, while putting you in melee with no protection. So, you end up using up Spell resources just to keep being able to fulfil that cantrip role, which is the opposite of what the cantrip role is meant to accomplish. I would honestly just never pick the Moon Druid subclass and use actual cantrips while staying nice and safe. I would consider the Moon Druid fantasy as poorly implemented in D&DONE.

[Psyren]

At some level perhaps the druid class suffers the same issues as a monk. There are a large number of things people want from the class and not enough design space to make people happy (at least while remaining balanced against the other classes).

I disagree, wild shape just needs some tuning to make enough people happy with it.

- Buff Land and Sea AC to be 13+Wis.
- Buff Sky AC to be 10+Wis and increase fly speed to 60ft
- Add a small list of animal abilities we can choose 1-2 from when we shapeshift - e.g. Burrow 30ft, Blindsense/Tremorsense, Web, Charge. Consider adding more in splats later.
- You keep racials that don't depend on your original form while wildshaped.

That's pretty much it. Oh, and make Elemental Wild Shape at 6th apply to your unarmed strikes as well.