Considering allowing favoured soul with 2 domains + turn undead + K (religion)

[redking]

I am considering allowing a favoured soul in my game with 2 cleric domains, turn undead and Knowledge (religion). This should make the favoured soul eligible for most divine prestige classes calling for these abilities or skills.

Will this introduce many unintended consequences? I don't mind powering up the favoured soul a bit, but I don't want the favoured soul to break the game either.

The player is not an optimiser and will probably make some suboptimal decisions in the build. Additional domains will not be granted if multiclassing with cleric.

[pabelfly]

If your player isn't an optimizer, I wouldn't worry. If you're worried about the player being eligible for prestige classes, seems easier to just make entry easier than buff the class.

[Saintheart]

Favored Soul's issue isn't whether or not it can turn undead or the fact it doesn't have domains, what makes it the Cleric with a C minus is that it works like a Sorcerer does. Fixed, small list means it's less versatile than the cleric, especially since the Soul can't get the same blasting spells like a sorcerer can. And even if turn undead now gives it Divine Metamagic, it'll still have the problem spontaneous casters do with metamagic: full round action casting (although DMM Persist Spell has less of a problem there presumably.) You're not breaking anything by these changes.

[redking]

I forgot to mention that the domain spells would become spells known in addition to the regular number of known spells. That means 2 additional known spells of each spell level that the character can cast.

[Saintheart]

I forgot to mention that the domain spells would become spells known in addition to the regular number of known spells. That means 2 additional known spells of each spell level that the character can cast.

It still doesn't break the game. Absent a couple of notable exceptions (Spell domain for Anyspell) clerics don't take domains for their spells, they take them for the free Devotion feats or the domain power :D

[redking]

It still doesn't break the game. Absent a couple of notable exceptions (Spell domain for Anyspell) clerics don't take domains for their spells, they take them for the free Devotion feats or the domain power :D

Ah, interesting. Anyspell doesn't look like it can apply to a spontaneous caster, and even it did, the PC will not be getting any domain spell slots, so it would be inapplicable anyway.

Would you say the changes make favoured soul tier one?

[Saintheart]

Ah, interesting. Anyspell doesn't look like it can apply to a spontaneous caster, and even it did, the PC will not be getting any domain spell slots, so it would be inapplicable anyway.

Would you say the changes make favoured soul tier one?

Not even close. Sorcerers sit at Tier 2, if the Favored Soul is anywhere it'll be there, not Tier 1. The fixed list of spells denies them flexibility to deal with a variety of situations, these changes don't go near that in my view.

[Curbludgeon]

The tier system is kinda silly, but I suppose an altered favored soul going into Sovereign Speaker after a Holt Warden dip to gain domain slots is about as close to tier 1 as a 18/20 dual stat spontaneous caster might get.

[Anthrowhale]

The spontaneous cleric was judged high tier 2 here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?522562-Retiering-the-Classes-Evangelist-Favored-Soul-Healer-Mystic-Spontaneous-Cleric&p=21942496#post21942496). The Favored Soul has modestly more spells known. Note a trick: Substitute Domain allows semi-spontaneous casting across all available domain spells.

[Inevitability]

The tier system is kinda silly, but I suppose an altered favored soul going into Sovereign Speaker after a Holt Warden dip to gain domain slots is about as close to tier 1 as a 18/20 dual stat spontaneous caster might get.

Still doesn't seem as good as dragonlance mystic into sovereign speaker, which simply gets to add all the newly obtained domain spells as spells known. It even gets turn undead in-class, unlike the favored soul!

[Silly Name]

Concerns about Tiers aside, I don't think those changes would really break anything:

Let's start with the easy one, Knowledge (Religion). Absolutely not a problem, it's honestly silly it's not a class skill to start with. It likely makes satisfying the requirements for most divine PrCs easier, but I would hardly consider this an issue - worst that happens is that the player can qualify sooner than they otherwise could.

Turn Undead is honestly the biggest change, and potentially the biggest power boost if the player decides to invest into Divine Metamagic, Devotion feats and the like. Lots of stuff can be powered off Turn Undead uses, but if the player isn't going for some high-OP tricks, it's fine. Also, consider that unlike the Cleric, the Favored Soul's spellcasting stat is Charisma, which is likely to make the FS a better turner overall - again, hardly a concern unless the campaign is very heavy on undead, but it's worth mentioning.

Domains are fun. As said above, don't worry about automatically adding domain spells to the FS' spells known - it's a small power boost, but unlikely to actually cause any balancing trouble at the table. What domains the player selects is really the big question here, between Devotion feats and granted power: some domain's granted powers are so situational they may as well not exist (being able to turn plants? Seriously?), but even the strongest ones are usually fairly limited in numbers of uses and hardly break the game.

[pabelfly]

The tier system is kinda silly

I never got the critiques about tiers. Classes have different levels of capability in solving problems, and tiers are just a quick way of describing that. If the tier system didn't exist, a Wizard would still solve a wider variety of problems than a Fighter, and that's something that people might want to know when playing or running the game.

[holbita]

I mean, how bad favored soul is depends on your playstyle and the variant rules you allow.

Are the extra spell slots going to matter for your character? Or are you going to end most adventuring days with unspent slots?
Are you going to have the time to prepare spells? Is the one hour preparation of the cleric too much for you?
Are you going to really benefit from your exotic proficiency? Will the all good saves matter to you?

For example, I find that a lesser aasimar with a flaw that takes the feat "Outsider Wings" at level 1, something that only the monk would be able to do normally, is a great boost to the class... but that's just one build of the class.

I've seen clerics and clerics, and based on spell selection some would benefit from being a Favored Soul while others would lose their identity as a character. If what you want is spontaneous divine caster then you have more options to consider before Favored Soul, if you are actually going to use the good points from the class then go for Favored Soul.

And regarding Knowledge (Religion), check the Dead Levels article, as they can swap arcana for religion at level 1.

[lylsyly]

You could do what we do with spontaneous casters at our tabkle and allow the casting stat to count for bonus spells known. It won't break the game.

[False God]

I never got the critiques about tiers. Classes have different levels of capability in solving problems, and tiers are just a quick way of describing that. If the tier system didn't exist, a Wizard would still solve a wider variety of problems than a Fighter, and that's something that people might want to know when playing or running the game.

The point is more that it's an unofficial, 3rd-party ranking of the classes, which a lot of folks over-focus on as a be-all end-all measurement of a class. The reality is that a Wizard can't solve a wider variety of problems, a person playing a Wizard could potentially solve a wider array of problems. The Tier Ranking is a better listing of "how competent do I need to be to get the full use out of this class?" than it is raw power, since many of the measurements of high tier classes rest of their ability to respond to various situations. Which again, isn't actually something the class possesses, it's something the player possesses. All the power in the world won't help someone who doesn't think critically and isn't aware of their choices.

Which is why the whole thing should be taken far less seriously.

----

Anyway, @OP: Absolutely nothing you've added to the FS will break the game. At least not any more than if your player decided to just play a straight Cleric instead. There are many oddities in 3.5 about who gets what skills and handing out a a few (much less only one) more isn't going to impact play. Turn Undead and Domains (essentially "more spell selection") will depend entirely on the domains/spells your player selects and how much they leverage the power of Turn Undead for other things.

If they aren't hyper-optimizing, you'll still end up with fewer worries than if your player had rolled a straight Cleric.

[holbita]

I believe there are only two classes that would suffer from this change to the favored soul... and that's the spontaneous cleric and the mysic, that now are fully outclassed. But honestly, what are the rest of the players playing that would make that an issue? Unless the Favored Soul is now stepping into another character's role in the party you should be fine no matter how much you want to make them stronger.

Having said that... I don't understand the need to make them stronger as they are very powerful already.

Regarding the tiers, my usual complain with them is that they are based on a very loose and generic expectation of play, and they can be very wrong when that is not met... but I understand that is not realistic of myself to expect a tier to include so many variations, even if in practices those variations happen more often than not... at least in our table.

[Vaern]

I don't think anything you do to the class is going to be terribly game-breaking if the player isn't going out of his way to break the game with it. It probably wouldn't even be going too far to give favored soul single-ability casting on top of all the other buffs, tbh.

[redking]

It probably wouldn't even be going too far to give favored soul single-ability casting on top of all the other buffs, tbh.

The MAD of Wisdom to DCs of the favoured soul is a reason why I am contemplating making these allowances. Making the class SAD would be too perfect.

Let's say I've allowed what I've already stated. Are there any prestige classes that I should look out for? Could any prestige class severely unbalance this favoured soul? I suspect not, but it's possible I suppose.

[Gnaeus]

A FS with 2 domains added to spells known + Turning is very, very close to a PF oracle, which can get turning from a class feature, and add 2 spells known per level from a FCB. Pulling those spells from domains is in some ways better (you can get gems not on cleric list) and in some ways worse (you are selecting an entire list at a time, which unless that list is REALLY GOOD is going to be worse than just picking the 5th and 6th best cleric spell of every level). Oracle was tiered at 2.06. I would expect FS+Domains to be similar.

[Bullet06320]

And regarding Knowledge (Religion), check the Dead Levels article, as they can swap arcana for religion at level 1.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150620211207/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x

heres a good link

[Anthrowhale]

Let's say I've allowed what I've already stated. Are there any prestige classes that I should look out for? Could any prestige class severely unbalance this favoured soul? I suspect not, but it's possible I suppose.
There are prestige classes which break things, but they are neither FS-specific nor FS-alterations-specific. Examples like Hathran, Dweomerkeeper, and Spelldancer come to mind.

[redking]

There are prestige classes which break things, but they are neither FS-specific nor FS-alterations-specific. Examples like Hathran, Dweomerkeeper, and Spelldancer come to mind.

What potentially breaks with Hathran and Spelldancer?

[Anthrowhale]

What potentially breaks with Hathran and Spelldancer?

Hathran casts spells at high caster level and if they have a level of wizard can cast any wizard spell.

Spelldancer can persist an obnoxious number of spells.

[lylsyly]

Classes don't break the game! Players do!

[Troacctid]

The only unintended consequence I can think of is that it would invalidate the Mystic and probably the Evangelist too. But that's not a real loss, since neither of them has anything all that unique or interesting to offer.

It also makes the Sorcerer feel worse in comparison. I would probably toss the Sorcerer a bone as well if I were making this change, just so that it feels more equitable. Maybe give them a free Bloodline feat.

Mostly though it just boils down to "Favored Soul will be more powerful," and that is the intended consequence, so you should be fine.

[RandomPeasant]

Honestly, I'd probably go further. I think the Favored Soul is much more interestingly different from the Cleric if it gets a reduced number of base spells known, but all of their god's domains. That way instead of just being a Cleric but bad, they feel something like a fixed-list caster of whatever their god is (though still worse than the Cleric because of their delayed casting progression).

Turning I don't really have strong feelings about. It's either the foundation for your build somehow (either because you specialized into it hard, or because you use it to fuel DMM) or something that rapidly becomes irrelevant past low level. I think giving it to the Favored Soul is fine, because the worst case is they do some kind of DMM build that the Cleric is generally going to be better at, but I would sort of prefer to see them get something else. Maybe Devotion feats to further solidify them as specialists in whatever their god is?


Classes don't break the game! Players do!

This is a pretty silly position. You're going to have a much harder time breaking the game with a Fighter or a Warmage than an Artificer or a Wizard. Yes, the game won't break if no one breaks it, but there are absolutely things that lend themselves to degenerate play patterns.

[Troacctid]

Honestly, I'd probably go further. I think the Favored Soul is much more interestingly different from the Cleric if it gets a reduced number of base spells known, but all of their god's domains. That way instead of just being a Cleric but bad, they feel something like a fixed-list caster of whatever their god is (though still worse than the Cleric because of their delayed casting progression).
That just makes it into a game of finding the deity with the most domains. All favored souls will end up worshipping the Sovereign Host.

[RandomPeasant]

That just makes it into a game of finding the deity with the most domains. All favored souls will end up worshipping the Sovereign Host.

Then cap it at some number you think is reasonable. Or just write a setting where all the gods have the same number of domains. Honestly, it's really not a hard problem to solve if you think about it for like four seconds.

[Gnaeus]

It also makes the Sorcerer feel worse in comparison. I would probably toss the Sorcerer a bone as well if I were making this change, just so that it feels more equitable. Maybe give them a free Bloodline feat.


No objection to throwing Sorcerer a bone because wizard makes it feel bad. But It generally gets ranked above FS anyway, despite less spells known, worse chassis, etc, just because the best wizard spells are commonly more versatile than cleric equivalents. Although I guess if the FS was specifically picking domains for the wizard spells (I'm taking this domain to get polymorph) the sorcerer might feel like his territory was being invaded.