Mind-Control For Everyone

[Sir Jason]

Ok, a question for ppls with some basic understanding of physics and biology.

The brain/nervous is made up of neurons, which conduct electrons throughout the body and give signals and whatnot that make your body do/feel... well, everything.

A change in the magnetic field a conductor is exposed to induces an electrical current in said conductor.

Right?

So, if I bring a very large magnet (with a magnetic field) close to my brain (which is full of conductors) WOULDN'T THAT TRIGGER ELECTRON FLOW IN THAT PORTION OF MY BRAIN?

To clarify in one word: mind-control?

Say I brought a very powerful magnet to open-brain surgery. And I brought said magnet in a torus of soft iron, so as to bend the field lines to within the limits of the torus. Then I ran the anger center of the patients brain in the torus... wouldnt that stimulate the brain's anger center, making him mad?

Also, why would this not work with the rest of the body? If I run my hand by a super-magnet, why doesn't it (or does it?) create a flow of electrons in my hand that causes me to twitch as if I was shocked electrically?

[captain_decadence]

See, a lot of people mix this up. Electrons don't flow around in your brain. Electrical signals do not jump around in your skull. They only move down one neuron at a time, completely stop and become chemical signals, then cross to another neuron over a gap known as the synapse. There is no flow of electricity farther than the length of a single cell so the disruption of a magnet would do little.

Our heads aren't full of electricity in the way that lots of people seem to think. It would be better to stimulate an area of the brain with electrical signals (not magnets) because I know for a fact that you can effect movement and mood with electrical signals. You can do it with magnetic symbols but it doesn't make any specific thing happen, magnets can't be made specific enough. The best a magnet can do is shut down portions of the brain temporarily (like 2 seconds). It won't kill you, but I've seen some grad students have interesting reactions, especially when the parts of the brain that are involved with inhibition of response are shut down and they start to twitch and flail just a bit.

In addition, there is no such part of the brain as "the anger center" that you speak off. While we know general areas of the brain for some functions, things like emotions are spread out in different areas and we need lots of different areas functioning at once to make any kind of response such as "anger."

[Cyrano]

The answer could be put more succinctly as:
Because of SCIENCE, my dear friend.

[Sir Jason]

Would you happen to know how it shuts down the portion of the brain? Is it by messing with the individual cells on a massive scale?

Also, I know there isn't a particular part of the brain that causes a particular response, but I also know that particular responses are affected by particular parts of the brain, meaning that if I shut down someone's frontal left hemisphere, they would probably do badly on their math test, n'est-ce pas?

[Icewalker]

I'm guessing if you shut down a largish portion of anybody's brain, as long as you don't have some method of doing it really specifically, they would end up just dying because it could screw up the unconscious stuff like heart control, which I'm guessing is spread around.

[Sir Jason]

Not a professional, but I'm pretty sure that most if not all involuntary reflexes like that are contained to the spinal chord area (at the base of the brain), in areas like the medulla oblongata (I love that name...).

[captain_decadence]

Alas, unconscious stuff like heart control is very localized, but in the very center of the brain (meaning that its almost impossible to shut off without shutting off the rest of the brain). The areas that we can shut off with the magnets are part of the cerebrum, the part that deals with more higher mind functions and generally won't kill you by having it randomly shut down. It'll just make you do weird stuff.

I am not sure what the magnets do exactly to cause parts of the brain to be shut down. When I saw the experiment on the grad student, I wasn't given a lot of background and it isn't my specialty. All I know is that it is a very powerful magnet that you stick on the side of their head, it lets loose a pulse of magnetism and they...do whatever, depending on what part of the brain you stop.

I find it weird that all the time I spent in those classes I kept arguing were outside my specialty are actually considered useful and interesting to some people. Oh wells.

[Tom_Violence]

If I recall correctly, there is a recently-developed device that allows one to simulate the effects of lesions in the brain using magnets.

I would write more, but I have forgotten all the details.

[Brickwall]

All things considered, even if you could screw up certain parts of the brain, the functions constantly shift. What would end up happening is that a single part is changed, creating temporary insanity. Now, if it was absolutely necessary to make someone hallucinate, it would be far more efficient to keep them awake for two days without proper nutrition than to attempt open-brain surgery and use magnets to try to induce schizophrenia. And there are similarly easy and reliable methods of controlling emotions. Direct action control would require you to hook stuff up directly to muscular control. It'd be complex, and probably hugely damaging.

In short, no, no mind control. Use powerful magnets for better things, like toys and wiping people's hard drives.

[Pyrian]

MRI's use powerful magnetic forces. I'm dubious that static magnetic fields have any significant effect on the human mind or body. Even in axons, the electrical current is substantially different in form than in a wire; it involves ions moving in a fluid across a membrane rather than electrons moving freely in a conductor. A rotating magnetic field is essentially an electrical generator, and that could indeed have all sorts interesting effects... But in general it's difficult to make precise adjustments that way, and many of the ones you'd want to make have a lot less to do with neurons firing as with neurotransmitters floating about in general.

[Don Julio Anejo]

The thing is, electricity doesn't travel outside of cells.

Simplified way of saying it is, a neuron gets a chemical signal at the dendrites, which tells the cell to "fire," getting its' electrical potential to change from -85 mV to around -50 mV, which then keeps going along the length of the axon (long tail-like thingy in a neuron, which is also what the nerves are made up of).

When it reaches the end, the cell fires off chemicals, and they are the ones that carry the message over to the next cell (which kind of message it is depends on which chemicals are released).

So technically it's not possible (in the foreseeable future) to use electrical and magnetic fields to mind control a person.

[Vella_Malachite]

It'd actually be much easier to control someone's mind via hormone control. For example, I heard of this scientist who discovered pheromones by leaving human skin scrapings on the desk by accident and watching all his co-workers hit on each other.

So, if you could somehow cause the human body to somehow imbibe TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone), then their thyroid gland would work better, their metabolism would speed up and they would get thinner!

Maybe if we found ways to send pulses to the pituitary or hypothalmus...

Or we could fake external stimulus...

Hmmm, promising...:smallamused:

[Don Julio Anejo]

It'd actually be much easier to control someone's mind via hormone control.
*Looks at the can of Axe bodyspray* :biggrin:

[reorith]

If I recall correctly, there is a recently-developed device that allows one to simulate the effects of lesions in the brain using magnets.

I would write more, but I have forgotten all the details.

quickly! to google!

[MrEdwardNigma]

In addition, there is no such part of the brain as "the anger center" that you speak off. While we know general areas of the brain for some functions, things like emotions are spread out in different areas and we need lots of different areas functioning at once to make any kind of response such as "anger."
Really? Wow. I thought it did. The Amygdala?
Well, I don't really know, but that's what I'd heard.

[Cuddly]

There's a device that makes electric fields around your head. It actually stimulates your brain in such a way as to produce the feelings people get when they meet God.

Heard about it on NPR.

[Trog]

Hmmm.... let's try this once.

*wheels in huge Wile E. Coyote-style electromagnet.

Now. Trog's going to stand to the right of this big magnet thingy here. Yup. And Trog's going to think about something. Clevage for example. That'll do. As you can see from the nifty Trogometer we have hooked up to Trog's brain you can see that it does indeed register Trog's thoughts.

*A small box with digital letters reads:*

:::CLEVAGE:::

Yup. Now then. Trog will do this again and flip on the ol' magnet here and we'll all find out once and for all if mind control is possible.

:::CLEVAGE:::

:::CLEVAGE:::

:::CLEVAGE:::

*flips switch* BZZZZZZZZZZZoooowwoowwoowwoowwoowwowwoo *

:::LEFT:::

:::LEFT:::

:::LEFT:::

[Kaelaroth]

Brave New World here people! We know what happens where people can control minds!

*scuttles away across the floor of the deserted warehouse, adjusting tinfoil hat, and fiddling with coat-hanger antennae*

[Toastkart]

First off, several of you have mentioned both Magnetoencephalography (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoencephalography) and Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation). These obviously aren't the best sources, but they're nice for a quick overview.

Secondly, most life functions are primarily located in the brain stem area (the cerebellum (little brain) and the medulla). This is why most of your brain can be shut down and you still be alive.

Thirdly, while the amygdalae (yes, you have two) are primarily responsible for the aggression and fear responses, the prefrontal areas of the brain are also largely responsible for emotion control.



Also, I know there isn't a particular part of the brain that causes a particular response, but I also know that particular responses are affected by particular parts of the brain, meaning that if I shut down someone's frontal left hemisphere, they would probably do badly on their math test, n'est-ce pas?

Actually, if you shut down his left hemisphere (maybe doing something like a wada test) you'd give him hemiparesis on his right side and he wouldn't be able to talk. If he were normal, that is.

Conversations with Neil's brain (http://williamcalvin.com/bk7/bk7.htm) is actually a very good read on what locations within the brain are associated with what functions.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Out of curiosity, Evrine, have you heard about split-brain patients? :biggrin:

[Toastkart]

yep, I could tell you about people who have had their corpus callosum removed to try and localize seizures on one hemisphere, but I won't. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, what I meant by 'if he were normal' was that only about 95% of people have their language abilities unilaterally on the left side. The rest are either on the right side or shared.

For instance, a patient known as VJ was a split brain patient who it was found could speak only from her left hemisphere and could write only from her right.


I know about these sorts of things because I'm a fourth year psychology student not too far away from getting my BS degree (yes, that's always a good pun).

[Don Julio Anejo]

Hehe nice. I'm only first year though :biggrin: Doing my BA (just so it's not as BS :tongue:), then on to another 8 years of stuff.

[captain_decadence]

yay for psyc majors. I'm a 3rd year and after this, on to grad school for many more years.

But this part of psychology is not my specialty nor do I have very much interest in it. Gotta give it up for developmental and social (I wanna go into school psychology).

Split brain people are really interesting, though the why of the condition bores me, the actual way it effects the person and their ability to perceive the world is really cool. Kinda sad for them though...