Atonement for somebody who did no evil

[Elvensilver]

For context, I'm firmly in the camp of alignment being descreptive and not prescripitve, and the spell atonement speaking of repenting for "misdeeds" fits that. As long as you don't do evil, you won't be evil, except if you are made out of evil like a daemon.

Now, to the problem: in one of my games, the BBEG and her minions squatted in an old dungeon, and one of her minions stumbled across an artefact that was safe-kept in there and touched it. "It" being the Book of the Damned (daemonic). He became evil.

I've got no problem with an artefact being an exception to the rule of only actions making you evil, but it does pose some questions, especially about atonement....

The PCs raided the dungeon and took the BBEG and minion prisoner. They learnt about the artefact and its effects and now want to redeem the minion, who, to their knowledge did nothing really evil and should not be damned to an evil afterlife for nothing. They know a friendly NPC who could cast the spell atonement and provide the divine focus.

But the target of atonement has to be repentant and willing. I can totally see somebody doing something evil in a highly emotional state, falling due to the deed, later regretting it and wanting to atone. But in this case, what would the minion even repent? He did nothing evil, he just touched a book. And since the book apparently changed his outlook (it has to make him evil in some way), why would he be willing?

Thoughts? How to redeem somebody who won't/can't repent for any misdeeds?

[Zanos]

The reason this is weird is because, as you correctly point out, you're trying to use an atonement spell on someone who has magically had their mental state changed to enjoy their new alignment. According to the classic item for forced alignment shifts, the helm of opposite alignment(https://www.aonprd.com/MagicCursedDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Helm%20of%20Oppos ite%20Alignment), only a wish or a miracle can restore the former alignment, and the subject will likely resist. Atonement doesn't work because it's not as though you did something Evil and legitimately regret it, you now enjoy doing Evil and, even if you had done something Evil, wouldn't regret it.

Now, if you want to be a little nicer, you could frame the alignment shift as being enforced by a curse; in which case a remove curse + atonement would make sense, IMO.

[Crake]

Atonement, despite the name, isn’t actually necessarily used JUST for atonement purposes. Its more a general alignment spell.

One of its highlighted functions is literally reversing magical alignment changes.

Also, nowhere does it state that the creature must be willing, the issue is the hour cast time, so youd need to make sure theyre very secure

[Zanos]

Also, nowhere does it state that the creature must be willing, the issue is the hour cast time, so youd need to make sure theyre very secure
It's the second sentence of the spell...

The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds.

[Crake]

It's the second sentence of the spell...

Huh, guess I missed that, I was looking at the target line, but I guess if it said "willing creature touched" it would allow the loophole of casting it on unconscious people to change their alignment. Guess that's what i get for posting right after waking up :smalltongue:

[TiaC]

The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds.
It sounds like he hasn't actually committed any misdeeds and so there's nothing to be repentant of.

[Powerdork]

Now, in 3.5 and in Pathfinder, the answer to this is the same. The atonement spell is actually a half-dozen different spells in one: restore paladinhood, restore druidity, restore Olidammara/Cayden Cailean/Kord/Vecna/Desna/other deity clericness, reverse magical alignment change (which ignores the usual XP cost in 3.5 and doesn't have an additional expensive material cost in Pathfinder), and temptation/redemption.

I'm just going to quote the very important part from the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game spell description for you.


Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.
Reverse Magical Alignment Change: If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no additional cost.

There should be no conflict here, because if the most important part of the spell's introductory text is to describe its function as "removes the burden of misdeeds", then it would render the Temptation Or Redemption mode of the spell utterly worthless because a Good alignment is an outlook and a lifestyle (as is an Evil alignment).

[Chronos]

If you read the spell one way, it's meaningless and doesn't do what it's supposed to do. So don't read it that way. Let the spell do what it's supposed to do.

[Crake]

There should be no conflict here, because if the most important part of the spell's introductory text is to describe its function as "removes the burden of misdeeds", then it would render the Temptation Or Redemption mode of the spell utterly worthless because a Good alignment is an outlook and a lifestyle (as is an Evil alignment).

"Misdeeds" doesn't need to mean "evil", it can merely mean any deeds that aren't in accordance with your alignment.

[Peat]

If you read the spell one way, it's meaningless and doesn't do what it's supposed to do. So don't read it that way. Let the spell do what it's supposed to do.

This in general seems the best answer to me.



I am mildly curious about how the BBEG's minion has no evil to repent in general. I guess maybe they'd hadn't been a minion very long.

[Bucky]

This seems to be straightforward. The minion is Evil because he touched the book. This violated the minon's alignment. The misdeed the minion must repent of is touching Books of the Damned. If the minion already genuinely has no intention to touch the Book of the Damned again, that should count!

[Elvensilver]

I am mildly curious about how the BBEG's minion has no evil to repent in general. I guess maybe they'd hadn't been a minion very long.

BBEG was essentialy a princess who tried a coup, failed, and had to flee. The minion was her taster and most loyal servant who followed her into exile. They found the dungeon and started clearing out the (evil) monsters as well as the rather peaceful goblin clan living there. Either scaring the monsters off to roam the formerly peaceful countryside or murdering them. When the heroes came to the dungeon in pursuit of the BBEG, the minion also helped to defend it.

So overall, while he was working for somebody clearly evil and did some questionable things, he did not himself do enough to slip down from neutral before he touched the book.

[Zanos]

If you read the spell one way, it's meaningless and doesn't do what it's supposed to do. So don't read it that way. Let the spell do what it's supposed to do.
No, it just depends on the nature of the alignment shift. Some effects are more powerful than others, like the helm, and change the creatures outlook such that atonement explicitly isn't sufficient.

[Chronos]

But the Atonement spell explicitly says that it can reverse alignment-change curses. If having the new alignment meant being unwilling to be un-cursed, and that were a disqualification for Atonement, then that part of the spell would never work.

[Powerdork]

"Misdeeds" doesn't need to mean "evil", it can merely mean any deeds that aren't in accordance with your alignment.

I'm not making the argument as fits a specific alignment. Get that angle out of your head and try reading it another way.

[Segev]

Magical alignment change is essentially personality alteration. It enhances or suppresses empathy, causes feelings of guilt or removes them. It makes the victim more respectful of authority or less so, and makes him value his word more than his intentions or vice-versa.

If he never has a chance to act on it, he may have no deeds to atone for, but he certainly thinks in a way that makes doing them more likely since he would have more or fewer qualms, and just needs opportunity where it helps him or his new conscience interferes.


It may help to consider the reverse situation: a priestess of Lolth, say, touched a Book of Exalted Deeds that turned her Good. Her Matron Mother found her supremely useful and competent before the curse, and wants her vicious underling back, rather than simply wanting to kill the weakling she has become.

How does the alignment change affect the priestess before she has opportunity to do something regrettable (like releasing prisoners or comforting a boy who had been bullied by a girl)?

[Particle_Man]

Maybe assume that this is a Durkon situation, and the person's "real" soul does not want to be evil and is trapped, and so would be subject to atonement (which would just kick the "evil tenant soul" out of the body)?