Tevo77777
2023-02-26, 02:00 AM
Hello! So I'm running a campaign is within my own system, and when I was recruiting an outsider to play the role of the mysterious Rex Arthurius during the Dark Ages of Britain. I thought to dig out my copies of EMPIRE by AEG and give this mysterious guest a domain to look over.
However, we're run into some issues and I don't really like the Kingdom Building rule for Pathfinder. The resources are far too simple and yet at the same time it seems more confused, more intimidating of a system.
Right now I am merely thinking about adding more options for buildings, and maybe some different types of tiles. I'm also going to look at some Kingmaker stuff, the new stuff and see how that is.
BTW, I'm also interested in recruiting people to play other characters or run other kingdoms, if you think you can be interesting.
New Tiles and Why
To quote myself from a few hours ago.
I'm going to have it be so that half of lands to the south and north will be tiles that are like a mixture of hill and plains, I was thinking they would be suitable for sheep and produce one food, but have to be double size.
Then I thought about Settlers of Catan and thought they should have the option to produce 1 unit of clay or clay bricks instead.
Finally, I remembered Civilizations, where Grasslands produce 2 food, hills 2 production, and plains produce one of each. However hills need two population to start production.
I think I will settle by saying that short folk favor this kind of ground and can produce both while settled upon it. The elfs get more out of being on woodlands anyways.
I think that clay should be suitable for goods that can be sold, or can be made into bricks that can replace stone, but only for civilian buildings (At the price of one wood to harden them).
New mechanics, short folk produce 1 food, 1 wool, 1 clay. Among the food is animal skin to make parchment paper.
-
3/15/2023, Perhaps low hills should allow a second population unit to collect 2 mud.
New/Changed Resources and Why
Silver now produces Lead as well, and unless worked by Slaves produces half a unit of each. If worked by Slaves production is normal for Slaves. Production harms any group that works it more than two seasons out of the year.
Wool has the same value as lumber and can be made into trade goods.
If made into simple bricks, clay is a replacement for lumber. If paired with 2/4 lumber, it sometimes can be used to replace stone.
A player has suggested that it could be made into pottery, and I agree. Its value will be the same as wooden trade goods.
The sheep slaughtered as part of a food unit from low hills, also is joined with sheepskin. Up to 10 units of sheepskin can be made into parchment, for the value of a unit of Copper each.
Can be grown on Farmland/Plains instead of Food, can be converted at a Brewery into Beer, which is valued at 1 unit of Copper.
Can be grown on Farmland/Plains instead of Food. Kingdoms with a Character with High Enough Rolls in Knowledge (Agriculture), can have half their fallow plains be producing Flax instead of being fallow.
Flax can be converted into Linen at any Village, or superior building/Stronghold. Linen is valued the same as Lumber, and Linen is valued the same as Copper.
Instead of Stone, some Hills (20%) produce Marble. A single unit is produced normally, and it is valued the same as Copper.
In exchange for 3 Copper or equivalent value in Food, small hills or fallow land can be arranged as pasture for cows. A unit of Cows is 1 Copper in value, and this area produces 1 such unit of Cows a year. 1 unit of Milk is also produced, and assuming a populated village is nearby, that is automatically converted to Cheese, likely cottage cheese.
Both a unit of Cow, or a unit of Cheese, can be expended to raise the morale/loyalty of 10 population units, by +2.
A unit of Cows is actually 143 Cows at kingdom scale, Bulls are handwaved and assumed to be present.
The Britons who would not become Welsh, along with the Nomadic peoples like Goths, can raise horses on the low hills among the flattest area or perhaps fallow land (Wait on this). Horses are three times as expensive as Cows, reproduce at about the same rate, and ruin the land if left wild.
A unit of horses is 48 at kingdom scale, enough to mount a heavy infantry unit of 45 and a few heroes.
War horses require War Horses and capturing or raiding the stables where the war mares are kept. A stud farm must also be built nearby where a whole unit of horses is kept.
A unit of Tools can be made at Village (No Monastery) or Town or Town with Craftsmen Guild.
It takes a whole season and 1 unit of Iron. The value of Tools is 2 Copper.
See Lumberyard for more details.
New Buildings and Why
So right now I am looking over the costs of roads in Settlers of Catan, their cost in Rome Total War Barbarian, and their cost in Kingdom Building.
I'm not sure if they should cost one 1 stone, 1 lumber, and 1 population working for a season or less. The fact I see them improving this vague Economy stat in Kingdom Building, is having me consider having them maybe cost maintenance like in Civ 5, but pay for themselves when finished.
Kingdom Building abstracts all money and resources together basically, and has ECONOMY rolls to decide how much is collected. I don't want to absorb or graft these types of rolls or ideas over right now.
After looking at the value of resources in EMPIRE, I think the maintenance should be in copper, which is valued at a 1/10th as much as a gold unit.
EDIT: 2/27, I realized that roads were in EMPIRE as well.
The brewery is Constructed with a Keep or Town and is part of the cost of that structure or upgrade. It passively converts Hops to Beer, 1 to 1. One Beer can be converted to 1 Copper (During Fall or Winter) for every single village nearby a Town or Keep.
Excess Beer can be expended to get a +2 Morale/Loyalty for 15 pops
Excess Beer can be expended for a +2 to Roll for setting up Trade Agreements.
A weaker version of the Stone Wall can be made for 8 Wood or Mud Brick, or 5 Wood and 4 Copper. The mud brick version is limited to Celtic/Byronic people.
Celts/Byronics can also build these, known as 'Duns' or 'Hill Forts' on low/shepherds hills, hills plains, or areas that are combinations of them.
Celts/Byronics can wall Villages or Towns, and refer to these areas as 'Oppidum'.
Romanized Factions can build Sewers after constructing a library, getting a good artetech, and constructing a Town. It is presumed that until Sewers are built, the Less Civilized analog is built.
Roman Sewers cost: 1 Gold, 2 Stone / Fire Hardened Brick
Waste Runoff: 5 Copper, 1 Stone / Fire Hardened Brick
SEWERS!!?!?!! (-1% total population growth, chance of sickness, No Loyalty Boost)
Forming Units
So the value of gold is wrong in the D&D 3.0/3.5 SRD, but the value of different items in relation to each other is correct. If you divide the cost of things in gold, you get reasonably close to the recorded value of items along the Dark Ages Franks.
Being Mad at Kingdom Building
"Republic: The kingdom is ruled by a parliament of elected or appointed officials who represent the various geographic areas and cultural constituents of the kingdom, making decisions for the whole through voting, bureaucratic procedures, and coalition-building. Modifiers: Crime –1, Law –1, Productivity +1, Society +1."
A lot of these terms do not come up in the document, grrrrr.
NM: Its at https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building/settlements/
Conversion Rates
Right now 5-8 BP to a unit of gold is my Kingdom Building to Empire Exchange rate. Tile Improvements are almost one to one for value and cost.
+1 to roll for the whole settlement in Kingdom Building = +2 to specific rolls for the leader in EMPIRE.
Instead of every single resource besides gold requiring roads/rivers and connected towns/strongholds to trade:
Food can be traded for Gold at usual price. The in setting explanation is that spare land is devoted to cattle, which is literally the unit of exchange for this period, outside places like Italy, Greece, Southern France.
I normally play with Plains producing 2 food, because of the Technological limitations. As such, perhaps Food should be valued the same as Wood (15 to a Gold).
However, we're run into some issues and I don't really like the Kingdom Building rule for Pathfinder. The resources are far too simple and yet at the same time it seems more confused, more intimidating of a system.
Right now I am merely thinking about adding more options for buildings, and maybe some different types of tiles. I'm also going to look at some Kingmaker stuff, the new stuff and see how that is.
BTW, I'm also interested in recruiting people to play other characters or run other kingdoms, if you think you can be interesting.
New Tiles and Why
To quote myself from a few hours ago.
I'm going to have it be so that half of lands to the south and north will be tiles that are like a mixture of hill and plains, I was thinking they would be suitable for sheep and produce one food, but have to be double size.
Then I thought about Settlers of Catan and thought they should have the option to produce 1 unit of clay or clay bricks instead.
Finally, I remembered Civilizations, where Grasslands produce 2 food, hills 2 production, and plains produce one of each. However hills need two population to start production.
I think I will settle by saying that short folk favor this kind of ground and can produce both while settled upon it. The elfs get more out of being on woodlands anyways.
I think that clay should be suitable for goods that can be sold, or can be made into bricks that can replace stone, but only for civilian buildings (At the price of one wood to harden them).
New mechanics, short folk produce 1 food, 1 wool, 1 clay. Among the food is animal skin to make parchment paper.
-
3/15/2023, Perhaps low hills should allow a second population unit to collect 2 mud.
New/Changed Resources and Why
Silver now produces Lead as well, and unless worked by Slaves produces half a unit of each. If worked by Slaves production is normal for Slaves. Production harms any group that works it more than two seasons out of the year.
Wool has the same value as lumber and can be made into trade goods.
If made into simple bricks, clay is a replacement for lumber. If paired with 2/4 lumber, it sometimes can be used to replace stone.
A player has suggested that it could be made into pottery, and I agree. Its value will be the same as wooden trade goods.
The sheep slaughtered as part of a food unit from low hills, also is joined with sheepskin. Up to 10 units of sheepskin can be made into parchment, for the value of a unit of Copper each.
Can be grown on Farmland/Plains instead of Food, can be converted at a Brewery into Beer, which is valued at 1 unit of Copper.
Can be grown on Farmland/Plains instead of Food. Kingdoms with a Character with High Enough Rolls in Knowledge (Agriculture), can have half their fallow plains be producing Flax instead of being fallow.
Flax can be converted into Linen at any Village, or superior building/Stronghold. Linen is valued the same as Lumber, and Linen is valued the same as Copper.
Instead of Stone, some Hills (20%) produce Marble. A single unit is produced normally, and it is valued the same as Copper.
In exchange for 3 Copper or equivalent value in Food, small hills or fallow land can be arranged as pasture for cows. A unit of Cows is 1 Copper in value, and this area produces 1 such unit of Cows a year. 1 unit of Milk is also produced, and assuming a populated village is nearby, that is automatically converted to Cheese, likely cottage cheese.
Both a unit of Cow, or a unit of Cheese, can be expended to raise the morale/loyalty of 10 population units, by +2.
A unit of Cows is actually 143 Cows at kingdom scale, Bulls are handwaved and assumed to be present.
The Britons who would not become Welsh, along with the Nomadic peoples like Goths, can raise horses on the low hills among the flattest area or perhaps fallow land (Wait on this). Horses are three times as expensive as Cows, reproduce at about the same rate, and ruin the land if left wild.
A unit of horses is 48 at kingdom scale, enough to mount a heavy infantry unit of 45 and a few heroes.
War horses require War Horses and capturing or raiding the stables where the war mares are kept. A stud farm must also be built nearby where a whole unit of horses is kept.
A unit of Tools can be made at Village (No Monastery) or Town or Town with Craftsmen Guild.
It takes a whole season and 1 unit of Iron. The value of Tools is 2 Copper.
See Lumberyard for more details.
New Buildings and Why
So right now I am looking over the costs of roads in Settlers of Catan, their cost in Rome Total War Barbarian, and their cost in Kingdom Building.
I'm not sure if they should cost one 1 stone, 1 lumber, and 1 population working for a season or less. The fact I see them improving this vague Economy stat in Kingdom Building, is having me consider having them maybe cost maintenance like in Civ 5, but pay for themselves when finished.
Kingdom Building abstracts all money and resources together basically, and has ECONOMY rolls to decide how much is collected. I don't want to absorb or graft these types of rolls or ideas over right now.
After looking at the value of resources in EMPIRE, I think the maintenance should be in copper, which is valued at a 1/10th as much as a gold unit.
EDIT: 2/27, I realized that roads were in EMPIRE as well.
The brewery is Constructed with a Keep or Town and is part of the cost of that structure or upgrade. It passively converts Hops to Beer, 1 to 1. One Beer can be converted to 1 Copper (During Fall or Winter) for every single village nearby a Town or Keep.
Excess Beer can be expended to get a +2 Morale/Loyalty for 15 pops
Excess Beer can be expended for a +2 to Roll for setting up Trade Agreements.
A weaker version of the Stone Wall can be made for 8 Wood or Mud Brick, or 5 Wood and 4 Copper. The mud brick version is limited to Celtic/Byronic people.
Celts/Byronics can also build these, known as 'Duns' or 'Hill Forts' on low/shepherds hills, hills plains, or areas that are combinations of them.
Celts/Byronics can wall Villages or Towns, and refer to these areas as 'Oppidum'.
Romanized Factions can build Sewers after constructing a library, getting a good artetech, and constructing a Town. It is presumed that until Sewers are built, the Less Civilized analog is built.
Roman Sewers cost: 1 Gold, 2 Stone / Fire Hardened Brick
Waste Runoff: 5 Copper, 1 Stone / Fire Hardened Brick
SEWERS!!?!?!! (-1% total population growth, chance of sickness, No Loyalty Boost)
Forming Units
So the value of gold is wrong in the D&D 3.0/3.5 SRD, but the value of different items in relation to each other is correct. If you divide the cost of things in gold, you get reasonably close to the recorded value of items along the Dark Ages Franks.
Being Mad at Kingdom Building
"Republic: The kingdom is ruled by a parliament of elected or appointed officials who represent the various geographic areas and cultural constituents of the kingdom, making decisions for the whole through voting, bureaucratic procedures, and coalition-building. Modifiers: Crime –1, Law –1, Productivity +1, Society +1."
A lot of these terms do not come up in the document, grrrrr.
NM: Its at https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building/settlements/
Conversion Rates
Right now 5-8 BP to a unit of gold is my Kingdom Building to Empire Exchange rate. Tile Improvements are almost one to one for value and cost.
+1 to roll for the whole settlement in Kingdom Building = +2 to specific rolls for the leader in EMPIRE.
Instead of every single resource besides gold requiring roads/rivers and connected towns/strongholds to trade:
Food can be traded for Gold at usual price. The in setting explanation is that spare land is devoted to cattle, which is literally the unit of exchange for this period, outside places like Italy, Greece, Southern France.
I normally play with Plains producing 2 food, because of the Technological limitations. As such, perhaps Food should be valued the same as Wood (15 to a Gold).