Fixing Balance?

[turkishproverb]

Hey, I was wondering if Anyone had ever tried to figure a way to fix the balance in game for Magic user's to non magic users.

I've actually been working on one idea, ah tough it might cheese off people who like their batman's.


Has anyone considered slowing their Experience ratio? You know, making it so they gain less experience points than other classes, so that they don't get uber powered as quickly?

Only problem here is, that would only help on the PC side of things.

[Chronicled]

Have you considered trying the E6 (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200754&page=1&pp=30) variation?

Alternatively (or additionally), using psionics for casters and Tome of Battle for melee tends to balance things out throughout all levels.

[turkishproverb]

Have you considered trying the E6 (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200754&page=1&pp=30) variation?

Alternatively (or additionally), using psionics for casters and Tome of Battle for melee tends to balance things out throughout all levels.

Tried E-6, not the world's biggest fan of it.

As for Psionics....well, they don't tend to work otu well in our campains, especially when people want to have both in a party.

[Zincorium]

Hey, I was wondering if Anyone had ever tried to figure a way to fix the balance in game for Magic user's to non magic users.

I've actually been working on one idea, ah tough it might cheese off people who like their batman's.


Has anyone considered slowing their Experience ratio? You know, making it so they gain less experience points than other classes, so that they don't get uber powered as quickly?

Only problem here is, that would only help on the PC side of things.

Right, like 2nd edition did?

The problem with it being already tried is that it wasn't a good solution in practice. Wizards are very fragile and have limited per-day abilities at low levels. It now sucks to try and play a low level wizard, and that doesn't fix the problem because wizards aren't OMGUBER at low levels.

On the other hand, the things they do at high levels are autowin regardless of relative hit dice, and your variant does nothing to change that.

[turkishproverb]

Right, like 2nd edition did?

The problem with it being already tried is that it wasn't a good solution in practice. Wizards are very fragile and have limited per-day abilities at low levels. It now sucks to try and play a low level wizard, and that doesn't fix the problem because wizards aren't OMGUBER at low levels.

On the other hand, the things they do at high levels are autowin regardless of relative hit dice, and your variant does nothing to change that.

Actually, while you do make a point, I'd been trying to systematically figure out what to do about the second edition problem.

I've been considering steepening the curve over time, thought like you said,t hat still leaves problems

[Zincorium]

Actually, while you do make a point, I'd been trying to systematically figure out what to do about the second edition problem.

I've been considering steepening the curve over time, thought like you said,t hat still leaves problems

The problem is the wizard class itself, it is inherently min-maxed. It gains the maximum offensive and battlefield control power by sacrificing everything else. That's the root cause, the experience trend is really only moving the problem around in the hope it won't be so bothersome in the right situation. And it adds in an additional layer of complication and DM judgement calls, so even if there is a concrete benefit (I'm not personally seeing one) it would have to be weighed against that without bias.

[Yakk]

No, you just chunk out the D&D magic system.

You use Psionic classes for spellcasters -- you refluff them as wizards, sorcerers, druids and clerics.

For melee classes, you use Tome of Battle classes.

Psionic classes are weaker than standard spellcasters, and ToB classes are stronger than standard melee. The end result?

[AstralFire]

Tried E-6, not the world's biggest fan of it.

As for Psionics....well, they don't tend to work otu well in our campains, especially when people want to have both in a party.

Can I ask why? I'm just curious.

The Psionics/Tome of Battle combination is one I've seen that works out pretty well. Especially if you throw in Complete Psionic - that book's not nearly as good as the XPH, but it does let a psionic character devote himself to being a party cleric, which pairs up well or can replace a Crusader.

[turkishproverb]

Can I ask why? I'm just curious.

The Psionics/Tome of Battle combination is one I've seen that works out pretty well. Especially if you throw in Complete Psionic - that book's not nearly as good as the XPH, but it does let a psionic character devote himself to being a party cleric, which pairs up well or can replace a Crusader.

Psyonics have their own ways of min-maxing. not as bad as magic users, but enough. Also, it pretty well makes it confusing as heck what to do about spell-like abilities on characters.

To say nothing of the ways players whine about Psyonics not feeling "fantasyish" (Don't ask)

So, basically what your saying is you think I'd have to rebuild the magic system from scratch?

[AstralFire]

Psyonics have their own ways of min-maxing. not as bad as magic users, but enough. Also, it pretty well makes it confusing as heck what to do about spell-like abilities on characters.

To say nothing of the ways players whine about Psyonics not feeling "fantasyish" (Don't ask)

So, basically what your saying is you think I'd have to rebuild the magic system from scratch?

Yes and no. Simply putting in Tome of Battle does wonders, and then depending on your players, simply asking them not to optimize casters highly may be sufficient. The versatility disparity between Tome of Battle and Casters is lowered by enough that a caster doesn't have to feel like they're gagging themselves to keep everyone else from feeling useless. Though if you have an issue with Psionics, that method of resolution may not work so well.

Some simple fixes that may help:
- Make Natural Spell a form of Metamagic that adds +2 to the spell level. Spells prepared as natural can't be cast out of Wildshape. Swap Druid and Ranger Animal Companion progression. Ding! Druid's done.
- Restrict Wizards to a much smaller selection (like say, 3 or 4 schools) and take out some of the worst abuses (Time Stop, Rope Trick, the Illusion spells that mimic Evocation/Conjuration, prune the Summon Monster list.)
- Same for Sorcs.
- Use the Cloistered Cleric from the SRD/Unearthed Arcana, and take out the worst Cleric abuses (Divine Power).
- Replace Fighter, Monk, and Paladin with their ToB counterparts, look up one of the martial variants of Ranger or use Spell Compendium. Ranger's pretty good off, really, especially if they get a full or full - 3 animal companion.
- Raise Bard HP to d8 and chuck a bonus feat every 5 levels at 'em. Arcane, Martial or Music based feats.
- Barbarian's in flux. Adding Reflex or Will as a High Save, honestly, would be enough to let them stay in the game mechanically, but they'd still have limited options.
- Weaken the power of rogue sneak attack and then make it work on everything. Or don't. Either way, add a 20th level special ability. Rogue's pretty well-designed.

A number of these I've tried and liked - particularly Bard, Cleric, Druid. Some, like the Wizard suggestion, are just conjecture.

[RoboticSheeple]

I'm working on this balance issue myself. It's called waiting until May. :smallamused:

[turkishproverb]

Yes and no. Simply putting in Tome of Battle does wonders, and then depending on your players, simply asking them not to optimize casters highly may be sufficient. The versatility disparity between Tome of Battle and Casters is lowered by enough that a caster doesn't have to feel like they're gagging themselves to keep everyone else from feeling useless. Though if you have an issue with Psionics, that method of resolution may not work so well.

Some simple fixes that may help:
- Make Natural Spell a form of Metamagic that adds +2 to the spell level. Spells prepared as natural can't be cast out of Wildshape. Swap Druid and Ranger Animal Companion progression. Ding! Druid's done.
- Restrict Wizards to a much smaller selection (like say, 3 or 4 schools) and take out some of the worst abuses (Time Stop, Rope Trick, the Illusion spells that mimic Evocation/Conjuration, prune the Summon Monster list.)
- Same for Sorcs.
- Use the Cloistered Cleric from the SRD/Unearthed Arcana, and take out the worst Cleric abuses (Divine Power).
- Replace Fighter, Monk, and Paladin with their ToB counterparts, look up one of the martial variants of Ranger or use Spell Compendium. Ranger's pretty good off, really, especially if they get a full or full - 3 animal companion.
- Raise Bard HP to d8 and chuck a bonus feat every 5 levels at 'em. Arcane, Martial or Music based feats.
- Barbarian's in flux. Adding Reflex or Will as a High Save, honestly, would be enough to let them stay in the game mechanically, but they'd still have limited options.
- Weaken the power of rogue sneak attack and then make it work on everything. Or don't. Either way, add a 20th level special ability. Rogue's pretty well-designed.

A number of these I've tried and liked - particularly Bard, Cleric, Druid. Some, like the Wizard suggestion, are just conjecture.

Hmm.. interesting. Some of these might actually work.

Going to see how I can rebalance them.


I'm working on this balance issue myself. It's called waiting until May. :smallamused:

You mean 4th edition? The windows Vista/ME of RPG's? No thanks.

[Dementrius]

2 options:

1. Raise the power levels of all classes along the lines of TOB

2. Lower the power levels of casters.

Perhaps, instead of messing around with XP tables, make all full casters only gain a 2/3 caster level progression, something like:


Class Level / Caster Level
1 1
2 2
3 2
4 3
5 4
6 4
7 5
8 6
9 6
10 7
11 8
12 8
13 9
14 10
15 10
16 11
17 12
18 12
19 13
20 14
(21) 14
... ...
(28) 19
(29) 20
(30) 20

HD, Saves, Skills etc are unchanged by level, but spell casting is brought more in line with the non-caster power curve at the higher end. The lower end is essentially unchanged (1 CL behind at Level 5).

[turkishproverb]

2 options:

1. Raise the power levels of all classes along the lines of TOB

2. Lower the power levels of casters.

Perhaps, instead of messing around with XP tables, make all full casters only gain a 2/3 caster level progression, something like:


Class Level / Caster Level
1 1
2 2
3 2
4 3
5 4
6 4
7 5
8 6
9 6
10 7
11 8
12 8
13 9
14 10
15 10
16 11
17 12
18 12
19 13
20 14
(21) 14
... ...
(28) 19
(29) 20
(30) 20

HD, Saves, Skills etc are unchanged by level, but spell casting is brought more in line with the non-caster power curve at the higher end. The lower end is essentially unchanged (1 CL behind at Level 5).

Hrm. Another interesting idea.

[Dementrius]

It basically makes 8th and 9th level spells "proto-epic", which is the way they play in the game at the moment.

The partial casting classes (bard, ranger, paladin) may also need a minor edit to get everything even, but otherwise it's a fairly simple "fix" if you prefer a lower level of magic.

I know I'd rather be running into the forcecage / cloudkill combo as a 19th level fighter (when you can afford an item to GTFO), rather than a 13th level one.

[horseboy]

There's always just playing a less broken system. :smalltongue:

[Kaelik]

The Natural Spell fix above seems quite lacking. Under that system I'd just grab a couple levels of MoMF for the talking and then still everything. You get basically the same casting, but you can talk in animal form, have a few more options, and never worry about Somatic components again. Honestly if you are going to change Natural Spell so that not taking it is going to be the primary build then you might as well just remove it entirely.

[AstralFire]

The Natural Spell fix above seems quite lacking. Under that system I'd just grab a couple levels of MoMF for the talking and then still everything. You get basically the same casting, but you can talk in animal form, have a few more options, and never worry about Somatic components again. Honestly if you are going to change Natural Spell so that not taking it is going to be the primary build then you might as well just remove it entirely.

Master of Many Forms is quite easy to fix for that. Allow non-spellcasting talking at 1st level, spellcasting talking as part of the capstone. Given that these are homebrew things, it's pretty easy to go "Homebrew As Intended, not Homebrew As Written", even if you couldn't get away with that argument in RAW.

Druids still take Natural Spell regularly in my games, because it's still pretty nice to be able to be an out-of-the-box Gish, seventh level divine spells and an elemental form aren't something to sneeze at.

[Tormsskull]

AstralFire gave some really good suggestions (though I think +1 Natural spell as metamagic would probably suffice).

If you want to go even simpler, though, just look through the spell list and attach expensive material components to the spells that are the worst offenders. There are several threads floating around from months passed that have a list of OPed spells if you want to consult one of them.

[AKA_Bait]

I was actually discussing this problem with a good friend/player of mine over dinner last night. We thought the following tweaks/rules/bans would do a pretty good job of leveling things out.

Wizard and Cleric are simply banned.
Sorcerers get Eschew Materials for free at first level and use the PHBII variant for faster metamagic -familiar.
Favored Souls get Turn/Rebuke Undead as a cleric.
All druids use the shapeshifter variant from PHBII.
ToB Crusader replaces Paladin.
ToB Warblade replaces Fighter.
Polymorph Line is no more.

Those are the big ones. Obviously there would also be a list of banned spells.

[Kaelik]

Master of Many Forms is quite easy to fix for that. Allow non-spellcasting talking at 1st level, spellcasting talking as part of the capstone. Given that these are homebrew things, it's pretty easy to go "Homebrew As Intended, not Homebrew As Written", even if you couldn't get away with that argument in RAW.

Druids still take Natural Spell regularly in my games, because it's still pretty nice to be able to be an out-of-the-box Gish, seventh level divine spells and an elemental form aren't something to sneeze at.

Except now you are houseruling to correct the problem with your houseruling. Besides, it's a better investment to take Still Spell and Silent Spell so that they never have to worry about those components again.

Bottom line.+2 is silly, especially if they could only cast in Wild Shape. What you are actually doing is encouraging one of two builds:

1) 7th lvl Divine and always in Wildshape
2) 9th lvl Divine never Wildshape

With your over the top restrictions above the spell adjustment you are forcing anyone who take Natural Spell to always stay Wildshaped.

[AstralFire]

Except now you are houseruling to correct the problem with your houseruling. Besides, it's a better investment to take Still Spell and Silent Spell so that they never have to worry about those components again.

Of course I am. However, it's not a complicated fix.

That's also spending two feats instead of one. I'm aware Still and Silent are a better option, but if you want to spend two feats on it, go for it. Druids don't get free feats the way Clerics do thanks to Domain cheese.


Bottom line.+2 is silly, especially if they could only cast in Wild Shape. What you are actually doing is encouraging one of two builds:

1) 7th lvl Divine and always in Wildshape
2) 9th lvl Divine never Wildshape

With your over the top restrictions above the spell adjustment you are forcing anyone who take Natural Spell to always stay Wildshaped.

And how is encouraging two different types of builds in druid worse than just encouraging the one that currently exists, 9th level divine always in Wildshape with a *****in' free cohort?

Polymorph is powerful, and if you want to be a badass fire elemental what can scorch fools hella far, you're going to have to give up something in return; it's only fair.

[Kaelik]

Of course I am. However, it's not a complicated fix.

That's also spending two feats instead of one. I'm aware Still and Silent are a better option, but if you want to spend two feats on it, go for it. Druids don't get free feats the way Clerics do thanks to Domain cheese.

They also get higher level casting then your Natural Spell version since if something only has one component they can just increase the level by one. I'd spend an extra feat for 8th lvl spells instead of 7. Especially since I honestly haven't seen too many good Druid feats.


And how is encouraging two different types of builds in druid worse than just encouraging the one that currently exists, 9th level divine always in Wildshape with a *****in' free cohort?

Polymorph is powerful, and if you want to be a badass fire elemental what can scorch fools hella far, you're going to have to give up something in return; it's only fair.

I never said anything about "Druids are fine how they are." Stop putting words in my mouth. I said that your version of Natural Spell is a wash because it doesn't do anything (remove the feat and you have the exact same game.)

Yes two builds is better then one. You could also just remove natural spell or use the Shapechanger variant. Either of those things gives you three builds instead of two since you are no longer punished for switching back and forth.

[AstralFire]

They also get higher level casting then your Natural Spell version since if something only has one component they can just increase the level by one. I'd spend an extra feat for 8th lvl spells instead of 7. Especially since I honestly haven't seen too many good Druid feats.

On a quick browsethrough of the SRD, the number of high level druid spells that don't have Verbal and Somatic aren't exactly high. I can't speak with certainty, but I would be surprised if that trait wasn't repeated in splatbooks.

Some feats I'd suggest taking as a druid, off the top of my head:
- Improved Toughness never hurts. It's a great default "I need a feat."
- Lion's Pounce
- The feat to improve your animal companion levels. Remember my variant drops the druid's companion progression to half.
- Arguably Fast Healing. It's uncertain how precisely it interacts with the "Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night", which is pretty nice.
- Fast Wildshape
- Any PrCs you wish to classify for may need feats

You only get seven. Eight if you're human. I'd rather just take Natural Spell and free up a feat.

[Rigon]

The very simple answer to that is:
make everyone a spellcaster. make everyone a melee. make everyone the same.
sounds bad? well...

give everyone ONE weapon proficiency (like: short sword).
give everyone ONE school of magic (with a limited PP system)
give everyone ONE specialty (like: tank, sneaker, mixer, annoyer)
make the PCs Hit Dice depend from size (1d6 small, 1d8 medium, ... so on).

depending on the weapon, you can give a weapon feat progression line/tree.
the school will limit the spells, no more "i do as i wish or polymorph". limit the spells more and more (simply decide for each spell if it's allowed or not).
tanks get armor proficiencies and discipline and such.
sneakers get sneak attack and move silently, hide, search, disable device...
mixers get craft skills (potions, scrolls, blah-blah)
annoyers get special attack features (like stun).

there you go. you have balance.

[Miles Invictus]

Ban all spells of, say, 6th level or higher. Let spellcasters keep the slots -- for stuff like extra spells, metamagic, and archmage SLAs -- but don't allow the higher-powered spells.

[Prophaniti]

Ban all spells of, say, 6th level or higher. Let spellcasters keep the slots -- for stuff like extra spells, metamagic, and archmage SLAs -- but don't allow the higher-powered spells.
Something like this is probably your best bet if you're trying to stop all the insanely powerful builds out there. Someone suggested something similar in my thread, that the spells merely need to be redone to make the casters balance, most of the high level ones nerfed a bit and perhaps the more ridiculous ones removed altogether.

Now I still hold the view that the classes, espesially casters, are only unbalanced in theory, such as the discussions on the boards here and at WotC. In practice, in most peoples D&D games with friends and family, there is very little trouble with the casting classes dominating the game for a number of reasons:
1)Most players just don't know about all the cheese out there
2)Some do know, but don't want to go through all the effort of making the build or looking up all the spells they have to use to own every situation
3)Many people I know and play with know the cheese but simply don't use it, mostly because IT'S NOT FUN.

The purpose is to have fun with friends and the more ridiculous cheese, the kind that inspires quests for rebalancing and discussions such as these and what happened at my post (Why do fighters suck/wizards rule?), lower the enjoyment of everyone at the table. Those who simply must find every loophole and cheese technically allowed by RAW are usually stimied by the rest of the group. No system is ever perfectly balanced, balance can be approached, and perhaps D&D 3.X is further from it than some systems, but those who choose to exploit this to the detriment of everyone else's game time will eventually find themselves playing video games at home, where no on cares if the find all the loopholes.

[turkishproverb]

Ban all spells of, say, 6th level or higher. Let spellcasters keep the slots -- for stuff like extra spells, metamagic, and archmage SLAs -- but don't allow the higher-powered spells.

Wow. A mroe severe version of the slower spell progression. Harsh. It would work though.


Maybe a mix of the two...hrm..

[AstralFire]

The purpose is to have fun with friends and the more ridiculous cheese, the kind that inspires quests for rebalancing and discussions such as these and what happened at my post (Why do fighters suck/wizards rule?), lower the enjoyment of everyone at the table. Those who simply must find every loophole and cheese technically allowed by RAW are usually stimied by the rest of the group. No system is ever perfectly balanced, balance can be approached, and perhaps D&D 3.X is further from it than some systems, but those who choose to exploit this to the detriment of everyone else's game time will eventually find themselves playing video games at home, where no on cares if the find all the loopholes.

The balance of a system is never an issue with a very good DM and a group of likewise excellent and compatible human beings for playing companions. I engage in issues of balance-by-nerf these days primarily as a thought exercise since I enjoy game design as a hobby. I do not use most of these restrictions in my recent groups since I trust them, and as a powergamer I always warn a DM of my most severe tricks to get her approval or to simply give her the ability to cope if she deems so necessary. Still, that doesn't mean that there isn't a problem there worth trying to fix.

[Yakk]

Use the following spell progression:


L 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1 2 0 - - - - - -
2 2 1 - - - - - -
3 3 2 - - - - - -
4 3 2 0 - - - - -
5 3 2 1 - - - - -
6 3 3 2 - - - - -
7 3 3 2 0 - - - -
8 3 3 2 1 - - - -
9 3 3 3 2 - - - -
10 3 3 3 2 0 - - -
11 3 3 3 2 1 - - -
12 3 3 3 3 2 - - -
13 3 3 3 3 2 0 - -
14 3 3 3 3 2 1 - -
15 3 3 3 3 3 2 - -
16 3 3 3 3 3 2 0 -
17 3 3 3 3 3 2 1 -
18 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 -
19 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 0
20 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 1


All casting classes have a "specialty". They gain 1 spell slot per level from that "specialty", even when they get 0 spells per level. Bonus spells apply to that "specialty" only.

Spells (with some exceptions) from your "speciality" are per-encounter spells. The spell slot "refreshes" with a short period of concentration that isn't practical in-combat (say, 2 minutes to refresh all of your spells, or 1 minute to refresh one with a DC 20+spell_level*2 concentration check). Spells with a duration or a persistent "creative" effect (healing, buffs, wall of iron, etc) will not refresh while the effect persists, or the standard spell slot would refresh.

Summoning and Transformation spells have a single variant for each target type. Ie, Summon: Dire Lion is a different spell than Summon: Dire Wolves. Similarly, Alter Self [Elf] is a different spell than Alter Self [Human].

Shapechange and Polymorph spells/effects do not ignore your base stats: they apply a modifier to your base stats equal to the modifier of the target race. (ie, a creature with 26 strength, when polymorphed into, grants a +8 strength to the player).

On a per-type basis, the level of a spell can be altered, or simply not known to anyone.

On a failed Fort or Will save, the target may choose to be Dazed, suffer the effect of the "successful" save for a round, then attempt to save again on their next round.

All casters are "spontaneous", but metamagic isn't slow.

Known spells, Specialties, and Special Abilities added by class:
Wizard: Knows up to (Per Day) general spells, and (Per Day+2) Speciality spells. Must pick 2 barred schools, and 1 speciality school. Bonus wizard feats occur at all even levels.

At level 1, 5, 9, 13, 17 can create a total of 1 through 5 magic tools. These tools apply to specific spells, and grant a bonus to caster level for that specific spell.

At L 1 the bonus is +1. At and L 7, 15 the bonus increases to 2 and 3 respectively. At L 3, 11 and 19, the tool also grants +1 DC for that spell.

These tools cost 25 gp * spell level * character level to construct in raw materials, and 1 hour per 100 gp (or fraction thereof) to attune. Other than the raw materials, the tool cannot be used by another character or wizard. An existing tool may be upgraded "for free", but if replaced or changed which spell it focuses requires spending the full amount.

Sorcerer: d6 HD. Knows (Per Day+1) spells of each level, including speciality spells. Eshew Matrials bonus feat at L 1. Must pick 1 speciality school and 4 barred schools. Bonus Metamagic: Gains 1 metamagic point per character level. These points may be spent to fuel metamagic when casting a sorcerer spell. A spell with fueled metamagic can only have 1 metamagic effect applied to it, and it consumes 1 point for every level of the bonus metamagic. Metamagic points are refunded every day.

Cleric: No medium or heavy armor proficiency: burn feats if you want it. Speciality spells are their 2 sets of domain spells. Must brandish holy symbol to cast all spells: the holy symbol so brandished cannot count as a weapon or shield for that round. +2 level metamagic feat to not require a holy symbol to cast any cleric spell. Knows (Per Day) spells of each level, plus the 2 domain spells.

Druid: Natural spell is a +1 level metamagic. Knows (Per Day) spells of each level. Speciality spells are the summon/wildshape spells. Knows (Per Day)+1 summon/wildeshape spells of each level. Wildeshape is a speciality spell: each form takes a spell known slot, and can transform into whatever a druid of level (X*2+1) could transform into under core. The Wildshape effect lasts indefinately: the real cost is the spell known slot.

Speciality spells known/per day don't advance when you take PrCs that grant bonus caster levels: they are a class feature of the core classes.

...

How is that for a caster-centric rebalancing?

[Miles Invictus]

Wow. A more severe version of the slower spell progression. Harsh. It would work though.


Maybe a mix of the two...hrm..

With slower spell progression, you've weakened casters at all levels, even those that are fairly balanced. Slower progression pushes optimization, since casters will have fewer spells-per-day and, in the case of spontaneous casters, fewer high-level spells known. It also makes low-level casters much less fun to play, since they get a heap of dead levels.

My variant is better than slow spell progression. It leaves low and mid-level play alone, and only changes the aspects of high-level play that are problematic.