Wizard vs Cleric

[Snig]

I just realized that clerics get more prepared spells then Wizards....

At 5th level, with an 18 in their respective spell casting stats both get to prepare 9 spells. On top of this the cleric gets an additional six spells that are always prepared...

I'm about to start a campaign where I'm planning on playing a wizard, but we also have a light cleric and a knowledge cleric, and I can't help but feel a little redundant. Seems like they can cover most of the utility and spell power that I can while offering more flexibility by preparing from their entire list while also being able to prepare more spells (not to mention they're larger hit die and better proficiencies).

Am I missing anything? Light cleric gets a ton of blasting spells and the iconic fireball, and knowledge clerics excel even in intelligence skills and utility.

[Gignere]

I just realized that clerics get more prepared spells then Wizards....

At 5th level, with an 18 in their respective spell casting stats both get to prepare 9 spells. On top of this the cleric gets an additional six spells that are always prepared...

I'm about to start a campaign where I'm planning on playing a wizard, but we also have a light cleric and a knowledge cleric, and I can't help but feel a little redundant. Seems like they can cover most of the utility and spell power that I can while offering more flexibility by preparing from their entire list while also being able to prepare more spells (not to mention they're larger hit die and better proficiencies).

Am I missing anything? Light cleric gets a ton of blasting spells and the iconic fireball, and knowledge clerics excel even in intelligence skills and utility.

You’re missing that wizards can cast rituals from their spell books so even without preparing them you have access to them. While clerics can only ritually cast spells that they have prepared.

So stuff like detect magic, unseen servant, find familiar, tiny hut, phantom steed etc., are as good as prepared for a wizard.

Also the wizard spell list is definitely more versatile and stronger than the cleric list. With a light cleric you probably don’t need to prep as many blast spells so focus on cc and disables. Neither cleric can cast web, hypnotic pattern, haste, polymorph, etc..

[Snig]

You’re missing that wizards can cast rituals from their spell books so even without preparing them you have access to them. While clerics can only ritually cast spells that they have prepared.

So stuff like detect magic, unseen servant, find familiar, tiny hut, phantom steed etc., are as good as prepared for a wizard.

Also the wizard spell list is definitely more versatile and stronger than the cleric list. With a light cleric you probably don’t need to prep as many blast spells so focus on cc and disables. Neither cleric can cast web, hypnotic pattern, haste, polymorph, etc..


We were playing in kind of a unique campaign (PHP only), where Wizards have to roll for their spells. We roll for our six level one spells, and then we roll 10 more times for 10 more spells level 1 to 3. This is the spell book that we start the campaign with. Here is what I've got...https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/695694034382880880/1079448019486900384/Screenshot_20230226-125508_Samsung_Internet.jpg

Both levitate and scorching ray are freebies and can be swapped for any level 1-3 spell. Mage Armor can be swapped for any level 1.

Any suggestions?

[solidork]

You will absolutely be able to carve out a niche since the Wizard spell list is so big and versatile, but if you're looking for an excuse to play something else you're right that this party has a lot of the bases covered.

[Snig]

Oh and I get to choose all my cantrips. Any other spells I learn will have to be found or learned through the campaign.

[Gignere]

Oh and I get to choose all my cantrips. Any other spells I learn will have to be found or learned through the campaign.

Your DM basically made the wizard the worst casting class in game unless he quickly becomes very generous in giving out spells to you. It’s why you feel useless. Talk to your DM about it basically there is no point to play a wizard in his game. Play a Tasha sorcerer at this point and just swap spells so you can complement with the clerics. Like you can’t even actively plan to not overlap with the two other clerics.

[MoiMagnus]

Your DM basically made the wizard the worst casting class in game unless he quickly becomes very generous in giving out spells to you. It’s why you feel useless. Talk to your DM about it basically there is no point to play a wizard in his game. Play a Tasha sorcerer at this point and just swap spells so you can complement with the clerics. Like you can’t even actively plan to not overlap with the two other clerics.

Yeah, the rolling for spell is harsh. It's fine to have a few determined by rolls, but any spell that "any reasonable wizard should have" should be reasonably easy to find in a deterministic way (for example by trading with another wizard... or looting it on their dead body). In particular low-level Rituals are a must-have of any wizard.

And since your subclasses are called "arcane tradition", it shouldn't be too hard to find a wizard willing to trade with you... for example any of your mentors/teachers.

[Snig]

Your DM basically made the wizard the worst casting class in game unless he quickly becomes very generous in giving out spells to you. It’s why you feel useless. Talk to your DM about it basically there is no point to play a wizard in his game. Play a Tasha sorcerer at this point and just swap spells so you can complement with the clerics. Like you can’t even actively plan to not overlap with the two other clerics.

We're limited to phb only, and classes are fighter, paladin, cleric, ranger, rogue, wizard.

[Gignere]

We're limited to phb only, and classes are fighter, paladin, cleric, ranger, rogue, wizard.

Given the rulings and limitations yeah unless you get a sense of how the DM is going to let you learn spells it will be rough going for you. If you still want to make a go at it, I’ll swap out scorching ray for web.

You need mage armor though. The clerics can basically freely change spells every night whereas you’re stuck with barely usable spells that overlaps with the clerics.

[firelistener]

We're limited to phb only, and classes are fighter, paladin, cleric, ranger, rogue, wizard.

With this and rolling for spells, I would personally just find a different game at that point. If I were really set on playing with them for social reasons, I would probably just go Fighter or Rogue, and then bow out at the end of the first quest. The DM sounds as if they have a very narrow lane for the players to be creative.

[Sparky McDibben]

Your DM basically made the wizard the worst casting class in game unless he quickly becomes very generous in giving out spells to you. It’s why you feel useless. Talk to your DM about it basically there is no point to play a wizard in his game. Play a Tasha sorcerer at this point and just swap spells so you can complement with the clerics. Like you can’t even actively plan to not overlap with the two other clerics.

This is unduly harsh, I think. I think this basically balances the wizard's spell list against the cleric's prepared one.

OP, you should, however, be searching constantly for spells. Downtime? Research spells. Let your DM know explicitly that you'll bite any hook with a wizard spell attached.

And get used to finding creative applications for the spells you do have. If your DM consistently shuts down creativity and doesn't put spells in your loot, I recommend retiring the character and rolling up another cleric. :smallbiggrin:

[JNAProductions]

With this and rolling for spells, I would personally just find a different game at that point. If I were really set on playing with them for social reasons, I would probably just go Fighter or Rogue, and then bow out at the end of the first quest. The DM sounds as if they have a very narrow lane for the players to be creative.

If the game is fun, even with the restrictions, it's worth playing in.
I wouldn't like the changes the DM has made-but I'm not playing in this game. It is worth keeping in mind that playing D&D isn't mandatory, but if it's fun, no reason to leave.

[Snig]

We're playing the new Dragon Lance campaign and the DM is taking strides to keep it as close to the original setting as possible. This is the reason for the class and race restrictions as well as limiting source books.

I do have access to the Dragon Land specific feats however which is pretty cool.

Also it looks like my spell list picture above cut off early. I also rolled for hypnotic pattern which is awesome.

With the addition of the dragonlance feats I will add hex, dissonant whispers and suggestion to that spell list.

[Gignere]

This is unduly harsh, I think. I think this basically balances the wizard's spell list against the cleric's prepared one.

OP, you should, however, be searching constantly for spells. Downtime? Research spells. Let your DM know explicitly that you'll bite any hook with a wizard spell attached.

And get used to finding creative applications for the spells you do have. If your DM consistently shuts down creativity and doesn't put spells in your loot, I recommend retiring the character and rolling up another cleric. :smallbiggrin:

No it doesn’t balance anything because although he RNG a bad spell list that doesn’t complement the clerics but another player rolling wizard can RNG a great spell list.

There is no balance if everything is contingent on a roll, it’s like saying rolling for stats is balanced, it doesn’t balance anything but it might be fun to roll for stats anyway.

[Mastikator]

We're limited to phb only, and classes are fighter, paladin, cleric, ranger, rogue, wizard.

Your DM has nerfed wizards into the ground. Don't play wizard in his campaign. Druid has really good control spells. I'd go with druid of the land.

[Snig]

No it doesn’t balance anything because although he RNG a bad spell list that doesn’t complement the clerics but another player rolling wizard can RNG a great spell list.

There is no balance if everything is contingent on a roll, it’s like saying rolling for stats is balanced, it doesn’t balance anything but it might be fun to roll for stats anyway.

Is my rolled list really that bad 😞? Say I add web, and considering hypnotic pattern is also there? We're a bunch of humans, so I was excited to get darkvision ,🤷*♂️. Levitate is pretty versatile. Detect thoughts should have some good uses, as well as gaseous form (which I've never considered). Sleep is great at low level, and clairvoyance should be useful.

I'm not sure about subclass, but thinking enchanter or diviner (already played a Diviner though).

[RogueJK]

Don't play wizard in his campaign. Druid has really good control spells. I'd go with druid of the land.

I agree, except as stated in the portion you quoted, Druid isn't even a class option with this DM!

Sounds like this is why the other two casters both chose Cleric. It's the only real full caster choice available in this DM's highly restrictive campaign.


Is my rolled list really that bad 😞? Say I add web, and considering hypnotic pattern is also there?

It could be worse, but it could be a lot better. You have several moderately bad to near-useless spells (Burning Hands, Thunderwave, Ray of Sickness, Acid Arrow, and Sleep now that you're already Level 5) plus a number of very pretty niche spells (Gaseous Form, Detect Thoughts, Clairvoyance, Illusory Script), and are missing some very key must-have Wizard spells, including basically all of the most common defensive and utility spell options.

Your addition of Dissonant Whispers, Web, and Suggestion would go a ways towards helping out here, since all three are excellent spells. Though Hex isn't a good option here, since you're basically never going to be able to capitalize on it because you won't have more than one attack per turn. Spending a 1st level slot AND your Concentration AND multiple Bonus Actions, all for the possibility of +1d6 damage per turn, just isn't worth it.

It shouldn't have to be this way. Basically, the DM has first put you at the mercy of randomness for your randomly-rolled spells known, and then you are further at the DM's mercy for what other spells you might find. (Also randomly rolled? Or prohibitively expensive? Or not available outside of one specific location/NPC? Or...)

Whereas the Clerics can freely choose whatever spells they want every day from their entire spell list. Either the DM doesn't understand how badly they're hobbling Wizards, or they are actively trying to disincentivize any of the players picking Wizard.

[Sigreid]

I think the question you need to ask your DM is how the list expands from here. If his plan is for it to be relatively easy for you to gain access to new spells, it's not that much of a problem. My suspicion though is that he's bought into the wizard's are op wizard hate and this is his idea of a nerf bat to fix it. Even if he has no plans to have spellbooks and scrolls drop, if you get to pick 2 spells on level up you may be ok.

[Snig]

I agree, except as stated in the portion you quoted, Druid isn't even an option!

Sounds like this is why the other two casters both chose Cleric. It's the most reasonable full caster choice available in this DM's highly restrictive campaign.



It could be worse, but it could be a lot better. You have several moderately bad to near-useless spells (Burning Hands, Thunderwave, Ray of Sickness, Acid Arrow, and Sleep now that you're already Level 5) plus a number of very pretty niche spells (Gaseous Form, Detect Thoughts, Clairvoyance, Illusory Script), and are missing some very key must-have Wizard spells, including basically all of the most common defensive and utility spell options.

Your addition of Dissonant Whispers, Web, and Suggestion would go a ways towards helping out here, since all three are excellent spells, but the point is that it shouldn't have to be this way. Hex isn't a great option here, since you're basically never going to be able to capitalize on it because you won't have more than one attack per turn.

Basically, you're first at the mercy of randomness for your randomly-rolled spells known, and then are further at the DM's mercy for what other spells you might find. (Also randomly rolled? Or prohibitively expensive? Or not available outside of one specific location/NPC? Or...)

Whereas the Clerics can freely choose whatever spells they want every day from their entire spell list. Either the DM doesn't understand how badly they're hobbling Wizards, or they are actively trying to disincentivize any of the players picking Wizard.

I should clarify that we're starting at level 2, but I've rolled spells up to level 3 (6 first level, then 10 from level 1-3).

This will be all the spells I start with. Any additional spells from here on out will need to be found or learned. I expressed my concerns to the DM and he said "Short answer: you will be able to find new spells. Not right away perhaps, but when the time is right. We can touch base more on Tuesday".

Will have a chat at session 0 tomorrow. I knew what the rules were before choosing wizard so I can't really blame him, and a part of me really likes the idea of what he's trying to do, I just don't want to be underpowered.

[RogueJK]

I should clarify that we're starting at level 2, but I've rolled spells up to level 3 (6 first level, then 10 from level 1-3).

So that'll let you get a little mileage out of Burning Hands, Thunderwave, and Sleep, but all three will have basically run their course for you over the next 1-3 levels.

If you really want to try to make it work, you could make it work with the spells you've posted (with your stated additions of Web, Dissonant Whispers, and Suggestion) and still be decently useful. But you're probably going to frequently feel underpowered/redundant alongside the Light and Knowledge Clerics, and my gut tells me that this DM is either oblivious of how bad they're hurting the Wizard, or they're actively trying to undermine Wizards, neither of which bodes well for you being at their mercy for finding further spells. That's all a big enough red flag that I personally wouldn't want to attempt to play a Wizard in their campaign.

If you do decide to stick with Wizard, I'd probably go with Enchanter. Both Hypnotic Gaze and Instinctive Charm are solid additional non-spell combat options, and you already know you'll have two very good single-target Enchantment spells (Dissonant Whispers and Suggestion) to eventually use alongside Split Enchantment.

Illusionist is also a good option, letting you pick up another very useful cantrip and make even more use of it via Improved Minor Illusion, which with lots of creative use could help offset your lackluster higher level spells known. But you'd have to just hope that you'll have the chance to pick up higher level Illusion spells along the way to use with Malleable Illusions.

[Captain Cap]

I should clarify that we're starting at level 2, but I've rolled spells up to level 3 (6 first level, then 10 from level 1-3).

This will be all the spells I start with. Any additional spells from here on out will need to be found or learned.
Wait, you mean that beyond level 3 you won't get free spells by leveling up, not even randomized?

[Gignere]

Wait, you mean that beyond level 3 you won't get free spells by leveling up, not even randomized?

Looks like it was RNG predetermined until at least level 5. He’s kinda stuck with what he’s got.

[Snig]

Wait, you mean that beyond level 3 you won't get free spells by leveling up, not even randomized?

That's correct. Any addition spells I add to my book will need to be found or learned. No automatic spells at level up.

[Captain Cap]

That's correct. Any addition spells I add to my book will need to be found or learned. No automatic spells at level up.
Wow that's... harsh, real harsh. Not only you get to know very few spells you hardly have any control over, but any time other full casters automatically get to up their game with higher level spells, you have to go adventuring and find spells just not to remain behind, assuming your GM lets you reliably find high level spells in the first place (but something tells me it won't be a given).

[Zuras]

That's correct. Any addition spells I add to my book will need to be found or learned. No automatic spells at level up.

That seems really harsh for a 5e campaign, especially if clerics are still able to prepare spells from their entire list. Restrictive spell lists can work if the goal is to make spell books interesting loot, but it seems like a feel-bad situation here.

If your DM wants to evoke that mystery around spells known, I’d see about working out a non-random list of spells you can pick up based on who you apprenticed to, or which magic school you attended.

[LudicSavant]

I just realized that clerics get more prepared spells then Wizards.... If you don't count rituals and cantrips, yes, Clerics get more prepared spells than Wizards.


At 5th level, with an 18 in their respective spell casting stats both get to prepare 9 spells. On top of this the cleric gets an additional six spells that are always prepared...

I'm about to start a campaign where I'm planning on playing a wizard, but we also have a light cleric and a knowledge cleric, and I can't help but feel a little redundant. Seems like they can cover most of the utility and spell power that I can while offering more flexibility by preparing from their entire list while also being able to prepare more spells (not to mention they're larger hit die and better proficiencies).

Am I missing anything? Light cleric gets a ton of blasting spells and the iconic fireball, and knowledge clerics excel even in intelligence skills and utility.

Wizards have access to...
- Arcane Recovery.
- The best ritual mechanic in the game (except for, arguably, a certain Warlock invocation).
- A notably superior spell list to any other class in the game. Fireball is good, but it's far from the whole package, or even the main attraction IMHO.
- Even when they *are* just casting fireball, a particularly Fireball-y Wizard (like Evoker) is better at Fireball than a particularly Fireball-y Cleric (like Light).
- Access to some of the best subclass features in the game.

This is some of what gives them value at least comparable to Clerics.

Edit: It also sounds like (from your later posts) that your GM is severely nerfing Wizards with their houserules -- possibly without realizing how severely they're doing so.

[RogueJK]

Wizards have access to...
- Arcane Recovery.
- The best ritual mechanic in the game (except for, arguably, a certain Warlock invocation).
- A notably superior spell list to any other class in the game. Fireball is good, but it's far from the whole package, or even the main attraction IMHO.
- Even when they *are* just casting fireball, a particularly Fireball-y Wizard (like Evoker) is better at Fireball than a particularly Fireball-y Cleric (like Light).
- Access to some of the best subclass features in the game.

This is some of what gives them value at least comparable to Clerics.

All true, until a DM like the OP's comes along and nerf 2-3 of those points with their forced limitations.

[LudicSavant]

All true, until a DM like the OP's comes along and nerf 2-3 of those points with their forced limitations.

Yeah, the GM's houserules are real weird. Dunno what the deal is there. :smallconfused:

[Snig]

I think the DM is trying to set a very specific setting basing it off of the world of Dragonlance. One of the reasons I joined the campaign was because of the restrictions which are intended to stay true to the world of Krynn.

Again, I was completely onboard with the wizard, and excited to put an emphasis on exploring to discover new spells and build my book.

It wasn't until I started looking at my spell list and it's limitations and comparing it to what the other two clerics where bringing to the table that I started having hesitations.

I'll have to do some thinking. Right now I don't feel really good about my spell list as it's pretty redundant in itself (overkill to have burning hands, thunderwave, ray of sickness and acid arrow), but perhaps through finding new spells it'll all work out...

[JNAProductions]

I think the DM is trying to set a very specific setting basing it off of the world of Dragonlance. One of the reasons I joined the campaign was because of the restrictions which are intended to stay true to the world of Krynn.

Again, I was completely onboard with the wizard, and excited to put an emphasis on exploring to discover new spells and build my book.

It wasn't until I started looking at my spell list and it's limitations and comparing it to what the other two clerics where bringing to the table that I started having hesitations.

I'll have to do some thinking. Right now I don't feel really good about my spell list as it's pretty redundant in itself (overkill to have burning hands, thunderwave, ray of sickness and acid arrow), but perhaps through finding new spells it'll all work out...

Perhaps talk to your DM about some minor modifications?

Say. for levels 1-4, you can learn ONE spell of choice on level up.
Then, levels 5-10, you get one spell of choice on level up, but it has to be one level lower than your max available spell slot?

[LudicSavant]

Right now I don't feel really good about my spell list as it's pretty redundant in itself (overkill to have burning hands, thunderwave, ray of sickness and acid arrow), but perhaps through finding new spells it'll all work out...

Yeah that spell list is awful. Redundant picks and blatant trap options (like Melf's Acid Arrow).

[RogueJK]

I'll have to do some thinking. Right now I don't feel really good about my spell list as it's pretty redundant in itself (overkill to have burning hands, thunderwave, ray of sickness and acid arrow), but perhaps through finding new spells it'll all work out...

Unfortunately, in addition to it being redundant with itself, it's even more redundant with the existing Clerics.

The Light Cleric will be a better AoE blaster than your Burning Hands/Thunderwave, getting Burning Hands themselves, plus having a non-spell Radiance AoE ability to boot, and then automatically getting even better AoE spells like Fireball/Wall of Fire/Flame Strike/Fire Storm.

And while you plan on spending a feat to bolster your lackluster spell list with Suggestion (a great pick and one of my favorite spells overall), the Knowledge Cleric will do that better too, with them not only having it available on their domain spell list but also being able to use their Channel Divinity to cast Suggestion without using a spell slot AND have the target auto-fail the save.

[RogueJK]

Yeah that spell list is awful. Redundant picks and blatant trap options (like Melf's Acid Arrow).

Ray of Sickness is objectively bad too.

[Gignere]

Ray of Sickness is objectively bad too.

Illusory Script I think is even more awful.

[RogueJK]

Illusory Script I think is even more awful.

It's at least a ritual. Not widely useful, but if you do find a use for it you don't have to burn a prep slot or spell slot to be able to use it.

[sithlordnergal]

Normally I'd say the Wizard is a far, far better pick due to their spell list being so much better than the Cleric...but with the nerfs your DM set? I'm not so sure...I'd find out how often you'll be finding spell scrolls and spell books before you change your class. If the DM is planning on making Wizard scrolls common, then I'd stick with the Wizard. Even if the DM doesn't hand out a ton of high level Wizard spells, your spell list will be far more varied then the Cleric, and have a LOT more utility than either of them. If your DM isn't going to give you many scrolls, swap to another class.

[Snig]

Unfortunately, in addition to it being redundant with itself, it's even more redundant with the existing Clerics.

The Light Cleric will be a better AoE blaster than your Burning Hands/Thunderwave, getting Burning Hands themselves, plus having a non-spell Radiance AoE ability to boot, and then automatically getting even better AoE spells like Fireball/Wall of Fire/Flame Strike/Fire Storm.

And while you plan on spending a feat to bolster your lackluster spell list with Suggestion (a great pick and one of my favorite spells overall), the Knowledge Cleric will do that better too, with them not only having it available on their domain spell list but also being able to use their Channel Divinity to cast Suggestion without using a spell slot AND have the target auto-fail the save.


Can you give me an idea of the spells you would pick if you could choose? 16 total, minimum of 6 level one spells. 10 others spilt between 1st and 3rd level spells

I want to see how far off I am.

[sithlordnergal]

Can you give me an idea of the spells you would pick if you could choose? 16 total, minimum of 6 level one spells. 10 others spilt between 1st and 3rd level spells

I want to see how far off I am.

Soo, personally, if I were to choose, I'd go for spells that Cleric can't replicate, or just doesn't have. I would personally go with:

---1st Level Spells---

Chromatic Orb
Comprehend Language
Find Familiar
Grease
Mage Armor
Shield
Tasha's Hideous Laughter



---2nd Level Spells---

Invisibility
Misty Step
See Invisibility
Shatter




---3rd Level Spells---

Counterspell
Fireball
Fly
Haste
Leomund's Tiny Hut



This list would give you a nice mixture of Control, Buff, Utility, and some damage. And outside of Fireball, they're all spells that the Cleric doesn't get, and can't replicate.

[RogueJK]

That's pretty close to what I'd pick as well, except I wouldn't even try to compete with the Light Cleric for AoE blasting, so I'd personally avoid Shatter and Fireball.

I'd do something like this, also picking up Dissonant Whispers and Hex via your Dragonlance "Initiate of High Sorcery" feat at Level 1.

---1st Level Spells---

Absorb Elements(1)
Find Familiar(1)
Mage Armor(1)
Shield(1)
Tasha's Hideous Laughter(1)
Grease(1)
Alarm(2)
Comprehend Language(2)
Dissonant Whispers*
Hex*


---2nd Level Spells---

Web(3)
Invisibility(3)
Misty Step(4)
Levitate(4)


---3rd Level Spells---

Slow(5)
Fly(5)
Counterspell(6)
Leomund's Tiny Hut(6)


Use your Wizard spells primarily for control, debuff, and utility (and occasional defense), and then contribute damage via your damage cantrip (like Chill Touch) or the occasional Dissonant Whispers when you don't have something better to do in a combat round.

[Gignere]

That's pretty close to what I'd pick as well, except I wouldn't even try to compete with the Light Cleric for AoE blasting. I'd take something like Web in place of Shatter, and Hypnotic Pattern in place of Fireball.

Or go with summon fey. Although when the timing meaning both you and the light cleric wins initiative 2x fireball back to back can allow you to win some fights you are totally not meant to win at all.

[RogueJK]

Or go with summon fey. Although when the timing meaning both you and the light cleric wins initiative 2x fireball back to back can allow you to win some fights you are totally not meant to win at all.

They're limited to PHB only. So no Summon Fey. Animate Dead would be the only "summoning" spell available to them, and that's already a Cleric spell.

(Besides, if Summon X spells were an option, Summon Undead would be the better pick here.)

[Snig]

I'm trying to decide if I should take shield or mirror image? I know shield is very versatile using your reaction but at level 6 as an enchanter I get another reaction to being attacked. Would this shift the balance in favor of the mirror image?

[Snig]

Same with taking web. Since I've already rolled for hypnotic pattern at level three should I waste one of my precious spell selections on another AOE control spell?

---1st Level Spells---
Burning hands
Detect magic
Feather fall
Illusory script
Mage Armor
Ray of sickness
Sleep
Thunderwave
Hex
Dissonant whispers

---2nd Level Spells---
Darkvision
Detect thoughts
Melf's acid arrow
Pick 2 - Misty step / Levitate / Mirror image / Shield

---3rd Level Spells---
Clairvoyance
Gaseous form
Hypnotic pattern

Hope that by level 5 I'll have found a spellbook / scroll with some good level 3 spells.

[Sigreid]

I think the DM is trying to set a very specific setting basing it off of the world of Dragonlance. One of the reasons I joined the campaign was because of the restrictions which are intended to stay true to the world of Krynn.

Again, I was completely onboard with the wizard, and excited to put an emphasis on exploring to discover new spells and build my book.

It wasn't until I started looking at my spell list and it's limitations and comparing it to what the other two clerics where bringing to the table that I started having hesitations.

I'll have to do some thinking. Right now I don't feel really good about my spell list as it's pretty redundant in itself (overkill to have burning hands, thunderwave, ray of sickness and acid arrow), but perhaps through finding new spells it'll all work out...

Ok, so giving the DM the benefit of the doubt, if he's going Dragon Lance, at your level you're just an apprentice with the towers still hoarding knowledge from you. It may be at a certain level (earlier editions it was 5th which matches with what you have in your spell book) he will have you take the test at the tower of high sorcery and choose a robe color white, red or black and that's when your spellcasting options will open up a bit. Though he will still likely restrict your spell access based on your robe. It sounds like things might not be as bleak as they seem right now and will soon turn around.

[Snig]

Ok, so giving the DM the benefit of the doubt, if he's going Dragon Lance, at your level you're just an apprentice with the towers still hoarding knowledge from you. It may be at a certain level (earlier editions it was 5th which matches with what you have in your spell book) he will have you take the test at the tower of high sorcery and choose a robe color white, red or black and that's when your spellcasting options will open up a bit. Though he will still likely restrict your spell access based on your robe. It sounds like things might not be as bleak as they seem right now and will soon turn around.


He did say I'll have to take the test! Hoping to become a black robe.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah that spell list is awful. Redundant picks and blatant trap options (like Melf's Acid Arrow).

I wouldn't call Melf's Acide Arrow a trap option. Though it's true it's much better for an Alchemist Artificier than for a Wizard.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'll just chip in and say that I think Thunderwave is better for longer into the game than has been presented here.. For a 1st level slot you can push multiple targets into hazards and areas of control, like Web, assuming that's one of the spells the OP opts to change in. Pushing one opponent into a Cleric's Spirit Guardians will result in 2d8 from the Thunderwave, 3d8 on the Wizard's turn (sa 1/2), and 3d8 on enemy's turn (sa 1/2). It's also handy for breaking grapples and avoiding AoO, particularly if you don't have Misty Step.

[RogueJK]

I wouldn't call Melf's Acide Arrow a trap option. Though it's true it's much better for an Alchemist Artificier than for a Wizard.

Chromatic Orb does 1.5 less damage than Acid Arrow for a 1st level slot. If upcast into the same 2nd level slot as Acid Arrow, Chromatic Orb does 3 more damage. And CO allows you to pick your element, not just acid. And CO does all its damage at once, not spread out over multiple turns.

The only things that Acid Arrow has going for it over CO is that it does 1/3 damage on a miss (a mere 5 average damage). But that's not worth it being a 2nd level spell, and compared to all the various other better 2nd level spell options (including better single target damage options like Scorching Ray and Tasha's Mind Whip), it's not worth taking.

Even the unassuming Magic Missile, if cast in the same 2nd level slot, would do 1 point less damage than Acid Arrow. And it's force damage. And it can be split among multiple enemies, or force multiple Concentration checks. And it can't miss, thus negating Acid Arrow's singular benefit.

https://forums.somd.com/attachments/untitled-jpg.139223/

[Snig]

I'll just chip in and say that I think Thunderwave is better for longer into the game than has been presented here.. For a 1st level slot you can push multiple targets into hazards and areas of control, like Web, assuming that's one of the spells the OP opts to change in. Pushing one opponent into a Cleric's Spirit Guardians will result in 2d8 from the Thunderwave, 3d8 on the Wizard's turn (sa 1/2), and 3d8 on enemy's turn (sa 1/2). It's also handy for breaking grapples and avoiding AoO, particularly if you don't have Misty Step.

Some great points that I hadn't considered! I feel like I really have to try and think outside the box with some of these spells. Gaseous form for example can be a poor man's fly, and has lots of uses, like scaling cliffs/walls, traversing hazardous terrain, infiltrating, bypassing locks etc.

Detect thoughts I think is underrated, and although the knowledge cleric gets a similar ability at level 6,I don't think they can do everything the spell can do.

[LudicSavant]

I wouldn't call Melf's Acide Arrow a trap option. Though it's true it's much better for an Alchemist Artificier than for a Wizard.

I would call it not only a trap option, but a blatant trap option for a Wizard.

Consider Magic Missile. Force damage, 120 foot range, splittable, does all its damage on one round rather than two, and has better potential synergies with Wizard features than Melf's does. And upcast into a second level slot, it does only 1 less damage than Melf's does over 2 rounds (and only if it successfully hits).

Melf's is so far behind that even if you severely buffed Melf's to autohit and deal all its damage on one turn, someone might still hypothetically prep Magic Missile instead (for better range, damage type, splitting, synergy potential, and/or downcasting).

Edit:

Chromatic Orb does 1.5 less damage than Acid Arrow for a 1st level slot. If upcast into the same 2nd level slot as Acid Arrow, Chromatic Orb does 3 more damage. And CO allows you to pick your element, not just acid. And CO does all its damage at once, not spread out over multiple turns.

The only things that Acid Arrow has going for it over CO is that it does 1/3 damage on a miss (a mere 5 average damage). But that's not worth it being a 2nd level spell, and compared to all the various other better 2nd level spell options (including better single target damage options like Scorching Ray and Tasha's Mind Whip), it's not worth taking.

Even the unassuming Magic Missile, if cast in the same 2nd level slot, would do 1 point less damage than Acid Arrow. And it's force damage. And it can be split among multiple enemies, or force multiple Concentration checks. And it can't miss, thus negating Acid Arrow's singular benefit.

https://forums.somd.com/attachments/untitled-jpg.139223/

Yeah, that.

[Snig]

So do you guys think I should spend one of my 2 free picks on shield seeing as how enchanters get their own reaction at level 6? I'm thinking mirror image might be a better option, considering I may spend more time in melee then other Wizards with hypnotic Gaze.

[Gignere]

So do you guys think I should spend one of my 2 free picks on shield seeing as how enchanters get their own reaction at level 6? I'm thinking mirror image might be a better option, considering I may spend more time in melee then other Wizards with hypnotic Gaze.

The problem is you have 4 levels before you get the enchanter reaction, probably better to get shield and benefit for 4 levels and hope that your DM allows you to pick up MI in those 4 levels. I will still probably take shield anyway because your reaction at 6 is only good for a single attack whereas shield lasts an entire round.

Also the level 6 ability has some fiddly requirements like another target needs to be within range of the attacker which may disqualify a lot of attacks on you. Shield is simple you get hit you can cast shield to try and negate said hit and then it lasts for the rest of the round so if you somehow got overwhelmed shield and get 10 attacks on you. Shield additional AC would apply to each and everyone of the attacks whereas your charm reaction will only ever apply to 1 attack that assumes the attacks are within 30 feet and there is another legal target to redirect the attack.

[herrhauptmann]

I'd be very sure on what happens after you pass your test of wizardry. Some spells should be across all 3 towers like Dispel, others are probably going to be limited to one or another. I'm probably being uncharitable to your DM, but I'd be afraid the random spell pick will continue even after earning your robes.


So do you guys think I should spend one of my 2 free picks on shield seeing as how enchanters get their own reaction at level 6? I'm thinking mirror image might be a better option, considering I may spend more time in melee then other Wizards with hypnotic Gaze.

If you're going to be in combat a lot, may I suggest the Iron Wizard? https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23837856&postcount=45
Technically it requires being a hobgoblin, but choosing other races should work too. The abjurer ability is free HP, and you can trigger it to start your day with an alarm spell ritual. Base AC of 18 and Shield takes me to 23 for an entire turn as needed. Then add in a way of forcing disadvantage like Protection from Evil or Black Tentacles, and you're golden.

I play this character in Curse of Strahd, and it's very good at surviving. I typically run out of spells long before I run out of hitpoints, including several fights where I served as the party tank, even intentionally triggering an AOO so other party members could move on their turn. (One was against a ginormous construct with insane reach.) While my initial goal was to try and use it as a gish type, it's been working just fine off of the spells recommended in Treantmonks God Wizard guide.

[Gignere]

I'd be very sure on what happens after you pass your test of wizardry. Some spells should be across all 3 towers like Dispel, others are probably going to be limited to one or another. I'm probably being uncharitable to your DM, but I'd be afraid the random spell pick will continue even after earning your robes.



If you're going to be in combat a lot, may I suggest the Iron Wizard? https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23837856&postcount=45
Technically it requires being a hobgoblin, but choosing other races should work too. The abjurer ability is free HP, and you can trigger it to start your day with an alarm spell ritual. Base AC of 18 and Shield takes me to 23 for an entire turn as needed. Then add in a way of forcing disadvantage like Protection from Evil or Black Tentacles, and you're golden.

I play this character in Curse of Strahd, and it's very good at surviving. I typically run out of spells long before I run out of hitpoints, including several fights where I served as the party tank, even intentionally triggering an AOO so other party members could move on their turn. (One was against a ginormous construct with insane reach.) While my initial goal was to try and use it as a gish type, it's been working just fine off of the spells recommended in Treantmonks God Wizard guide.

He’s limited to PHB so can’t pick hobgoblin the best he can do is probably dwarf for medium armor proficiency but without shield proficiency, I guess you can still just pick up medium armor feat just for the shield I guess.

[Snig]

I took magic initiate for my first level feat. Ironically I had to roll for the spell but ended up with shield! That frees up one of my other two picks. I'm thinking levitate and counter spell? I would like something to synergize with my hypnotic gaze. I was thinking flaming sphere but I think the utility of levitate outweighs it. Also we have a cleric who is playing a support character and said he will hit me with a sanctuary while I'm focusing on hypnotic gaze!

[Gignere]

I took magic initiate for my first level feat. Ironically I had to roll for the spell but ended up with shield! That frees up one of my other two picks. I'm thinking levitate and counter spell? I would like something to synergize with my hypnotic gaze. I was thinking flaming sphere but I think the utility of levitate outweighs it. Also we have a cleric who is playing a support character and said he will hit me with a sanctuary while I'm focusing on hypnotic gaze!

WTH your DM made you roll for MI spell? Damn I would totally run from playing a wizard at that table. Yeah somehow your DM got it in his head that wizards gets spells randomly which totally defeats the purpose and even the aesthetics of playing the dedicated researcher magic user who studies magic to bend reality to the user’s specifications.

[RogueJK]

If you're going to be in combat a lot, may I suggest the Iron Wizard? https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23837856&postcount=45
Technically it requires being a hobgoblin, but choosing other races should work too.

He’s limited to PHB so can’t pick hobgoblin the best he can do is probably dwarf for medium armor proficiency but without shield proficiency, I guess you can still just pick up medium armor feat just for the shield I guess.

As long as you don't need the racial weapon proficiencies specifically, you can also achieve the same effect with a Variant Human, taking Lightly Armored at Level 1 and Moderately Armored at Level 4. Either way, VHuman or Mountain Dwarf or Hobgoblin, your single-classed Medium Armor + Shield "Iron Wizard" is coming online after your Level 4 ASI.

And either VHuman or Mountain Dwarf would be doable with PHB only.

But with PHB only, you don't get access to SCAGtrips, which means you won't be able to compete in melee like the full-blown Iron Wizard, but also removes the need to worry about weapon proficiencies and makes VHuman a more viable option. You'd be more of just a traditional caster with better defenses.

(Though in general, if multiclassing is an option, a Wizard taking a single level dip into Cleric or Artificer for Medium Armor and Shield proficiency is usually going to be a better choice than chasing armor proficiency through feats.)

[JellyPooga]

Ray of Sickness is objectively bad too.

I'm not sure how you figure this one. Sure, it's hardly game breaking, but damage plus a poison rider is pretty solid for a 1st level slot, even if it does take an attack roll and a con save. If you can get it on a Warlock chassis, the scaling isn't completely awful either. I actually rather like RoS, particularly as compared to it's lacklustre slack-jawed older brother, Ray of Exhaustion; now that's an objectively bad spell. I'm curious why you think RoS is so bad.

[RogueJK]

I'm curious why you think RoS is so bad.

1) Poison is the worst form of PC damage in 5E, with the most enemies that are resistant/immune to it
2) Similarly, there are a number of enemies outright immune to the Poisoned condition
3) It requires both a successful attack roll and a failed CON save for its full effect, so the dice have to roll in your favor twice
4) Unlike most other leveled spells that deal damage and involve a save, it doesn't have the option to deal half damage
5) CON saves tend to be the strongest saves among enemies, especially among big martial enemies with multiple beefy attacks that you'd want to try to debuff with the Poisoned condition
6) At best, the Poisoned condition only lasts for 1 of the enemy's turns, instead of it sticking around until they succeed on a save at the end of one of their turns like other debuff spells
7) It does less damage than even 1st level Magic Missile, which can't miss.
8) It has a shorter range than most other 1st level ranged damage spells.

In sum, there are a ton of problems with Ray of Sickness, and a wide variety of better options for 1st level spells that deal damage and/or inflict a debuff.


If you can get it on a Warlock chassis, the scaling isn't completely awful either.

Spending a 5th level Warlock slot to deal 6d8 Poison damage (or nothing on a missed attack roll) on a single target, and then maybe give them Disadvantage on attack(s) for their next turn if they also fail a save, is completely awful...



Even if you significantly buff Ray of Sickness by making it follow the usual mold for lower level "damage + debuff" spells like Dissonant Whispers, Arms of Hadar, or Thunderwave, with it involving just a save that does full damage plus the debuff on a failed save or half damage but no debuff on a successful save, you'd still have major strikes against it for being both Poison damage and a CON save. It'd still be a fairly poor choice for most PCs, but then at least it wouldn't be "objectively bad", flat-out.

So if we wanted to make it actually worth taking, it'd need to be modified even further, to something like an attack roll that does 3d8 Poison damage and automatically inflicts Poisoned for a turn on a hit (basically a shorter ranged and poison only Chromatic Orb with a decent debuff consolation prize for being shorter ranged and poison only), or perhaps something like a CON save that does 3d6 Necrotic damage and inflicts the Poisoned condition for a turn on a failed save, with half damage and no debuff on a successful save (basically Disease-onant Whispers, just with it being a CON save to balance out the stronger debuff).

[JellyPooga]

1) Poison is the worst form of damage in 5E, with the most enemies that are resistant/immune to it
2) Similarly, there are a number of enemies outright immune to the Poisoned condition
3) It requires both a successful attack roll and a failed CON save for its full effect
4) Unlike most other leveled save spells, it does zero damage on a failed save
5) CON saves tend to be the strongest saves among enemies
6) At best, the Poisoned condition only lasts for 1 round
7) It does less damage than even Magic Missile, which can't miss.

In sum, there are a variety of better options for 1st level spells that deal damage and/or inflict a short duration debuff (or both).

1) This is one of those "in theory true" arguments that is at the same time sort of a weak one because you just don't use it when it's less than effective. On a spells known chassis, this can be a problem, but for the Wizard or another prepared spells caster less so.

2) Again, stupid is as stupid does; you aren't using this against the undead. The argument that a spell is objectively bad against those it's bad against is not a good argument. No-one is saying Wall of Stone is bad because it isn't effective against flying creatures.

3) Granted.

4) Wrong. Hit for damage, Save for rider.

5) Granted with the caveat of my rebuttal to point (1).

6) 1 round of a strong condition (and Poisoned is a strong condition) is a solid effect for a 1st level spell. About the closest you're going to get for the same investment is Restrained, which does almost nothing if the target has a ranged attack.

7) Damage plus rider is better than just damage.

I'm not saying the spell is always going to be clutch or an obvious pick in all situations, but largely speaking if you're fighting creatures that aren't suceptible to it (undead, golems, etc.) you're using spells, tactics or abilities specific to those enemies. In addition, while it carries additional risk of failure, it has greater reward, especially considering its low resource cost. Comparing it to a spell that solely deals damage is disingenuous; it has a rider (and niche though the argument is, upcast to 2nd level it deals the same damage as MM and more as a 3rd lvl). Comparing it to a spell that only debuffs is similarly unfaithful; it also deals damage. For all that it loses in versatility by having a commonly resisted damage type, it gains by having multiple effects.

I'd say it's definitely a spell that you want to choose/use carefully, but it's far from objectively bad.

edit: NB - This response is currently in reply to the original, uneditted post by RogueJK.

[herrhauptmann]

He’s limited to PHB so can’t pick hobgoblin the best he can do is probably dwarf for medium armor proficiency but without shield proficiency, I guess you can still just pick up medium armor feat just for the shield I guess.
See below.

but choosing other races should work too. The abjurer ability is free HP, and you can trigger it to start your day with an alarm spell ritual. Base AC of 18 and Shield takes me to 23 for an entire turn as needed. Then add in a way of forcing disadvantage like Protection from Evil or Black Tentacles, and you're golden.

While my initial goal was to try and use it as a gish type, it's been working just fine off of the spells recommended in Treantmonks God Wizard guide.

The God Wizard spell selection works for specialization, and calls out certain spells as being ideal for certain subclasses, which is the main issue for OP starting with so many random spells. Yeah OP will have to give up some stuff due to PHB limitations, but the survivability is there.

The variant human gets an extra feat right? That could be better than the saving face feature of a hobgoblin.

[subtledoctor]

We're playing the new Dragon Lance campaign and the DM is taking strides to keep it as close to the original setting as possible. This is the reason for the class and race restrictions as well as limiting source books.

Remember when playing a Dragonlance campaign meant nerfing clerics, rather than wizards?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

Sorry, I’ll see myself out…

[RogueJK]

Yeah, that's why this smells like a DM's personal grudge/nerf towards Wizards, rather than some setting-specific restriction.