Zhentarim Skymage - The best way to play a Beholder Mage?

[Rebel7284]

It is well known that Beholder Mage is a ridiculously unfair class, giving fast caster progression and the ability to cast up to 10 spells per round, however, most ways of entering the class as a player character are questionable at best, so what about the next best thing, having one as a pet?

A regular Beholder has a fly speed


Speed: 5 ft., fly 20 ft. (good)


Enter Zhentarim Skymage!

Looking at Flying Mount (Ex) ability, it looks like the only limitation to the mount is HD and the ability to fly.
Flying mount even mentions creating/modifying your mounts with necromancy. Therefore I see no reason why a creature with class levels would not be eligible.

With that said, a regular Beholder has 11HD, so a Beholder Mage 10 is an 21 HD epic monstrosity.



The mount cannot have more Hit Dice than the Zhentarim skymage's class level + his Charisma modifier + 1


We need +15 modifier upon finishing the class

Example build:
Old Spark (Magic-blooded) Unseelie Fey Human Sorcerer 1/Human Paragon 3/Sorcerer +3/Zhentarim Skymage 5/Dragon Devotee 1 (CR 14)


Charisma
18 base
+4 Template
+2 Age
+2 Paragon
+2 Dragon Devotee
+3 Level up
+6 Enhancement (Cloak of Charisma)
+1 Faustian Pact (FC2)
+1 Worm of Minauros (FC2)
+1 Inherent (Tome of Leadership and Influence)
= 40

Only the Cloak can be suppressed/destroyed, everything else is permanent.

There are probably more elegant ways of optimizing Charisma.
- Kobolds can become Venerable without the -6 Con
- Fiend Blooded gives +1 Charisma at no caster level loss, but takes 3 levels
- Of course LA buyoff + more templates could work well too.
- Spells can boost Charisma MUCH higher easily, but having your mount turn on you would be VERY bad.

And of course, you don't necessarily need to start at BM level 10, you could start with a beholder that didn't finish the class and work up from there.

[Inevitability]

You can advance Skymage with Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion to get more effective class levels, instead of simply pumping charisma.

[Gruftzwerg]

You can't use a medium sized rider for an unconventional mount of large size. You need to be 2 size categories smaller. thus you would have to pick a small sized race.

Windrider (Masters of the Wild 3.0!) lets you pick any (!) mount you have already ridden as a special mount. The prc gives the mount extra HD and other nice stuff.

If you are interested in Beholder Mage builds in general, I once did make a BM entry for a contest. Dvati twins (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25368609&postcount=42) (since the contest did give some extra XP for LA buffoff; but is not needed for the BM entry) as race to double the cheese.



You can advance Skymage with Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion to get more effective class levels, instead of simply pumping charisma.

Imho this trick doesn't work as it is commonly advertised:

1.) You don't have the permission to add more lvls to a class than it originally has.

2.) Epic lvls are additional rules that your DM might not allow

3.) Both Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion differentiate between class and prestige class and both sole apply to "class":

... as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.

Each of the 3 points denies what people try to do with UT and LC. And while (3) might be arguable and (2) can be overcome with DM fiat, (1) still hold water and denies this interaction.

You never did have permission to extend the tables of PRCs. There is no "..." as some tables have (see Ability Scores table for modifiers and extra spells) to indicate that it is ongoing.

[Rebel7284]

You can advance Skymage with Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion to get more effective class levels, instead of simply pumping charisma.

You know, this crossed my mind briefly, but I originally dismissed it as too cheesy. I guess nifty to list for completeness even if not all tables would allow it (but what tables would allow having a pet like this in the mid levels anyway? :smallsmile:)

While we're taking about questionable rules interactions, if your table has figured out how bloodlines are supposed to work, a major bloodline or two can both progress Zhentarim Skymage AND boost your Charisma, making optimizing charisma that much easier.
Devil and Fey bloodlines both seem flavorful and each add +3 levels of progression and +1 Charisma.

[Edit]


You can't use a medium sized rider for an unconventional mount of large size. You need to be 2 size categories smaller. thus you would have to pick a small sized race.

Any issues with just using Reduce Person or some such? With that said, I guess that's another reason to go for Kobold instead.



Windrider (Masters of the Wild 3.0!) lets you pick any (!) mount you have already ridden as a special mount. The prc gives the mount extra HD and other nice stuff.


For most mount focused builds, this would be great, however extra HD might mean that we need even higher Charisma to control the Beholder Mage, which would be bad.

[Edit 2]

Windrider made me think about the fact that reducing HD on the beholder might be as effective as boosting Charisma. So another approach would be to temporarily boost your Charisma. Get yourself a Beholder Mage mount. Then give the mount a bunch of Holy weapons to reduce its effective HD by 1 each. Hurts your caster level of course, but a curious option.

[Anthrowhale]

You can't use a medium sized rider for an unconventional mount of large size. You need to be 2 size categories smaller. thus you would have to pick a small sized race.

Where is this rule?

[Gruftzwerg]

Any issues with just using Reduce Person or some such? With that said, I guess that's another reason to go for Kobold instead.



For most mount focused builds, this would be great, however extra HD might mean that we need even higher Charisma to control the Beholder Mage, which would be bad.

[Edit 2]

Windrider made me think about the fact that reducing HD on the beholder might be as effective as boosting Charisma. So another approach would be to temporarily boost your Charisma. Get yourself a Beholder Mage mount. Then give the mount a bunch of Holy weapons to reduce its effective HD by 1 each. Hurts your caster level of course, but a curious option.

Sure Reduce Person would work. I just wanted to point out the issue so that you are aware of it.

Regarding the extra HD:
Imho there is an argument to be made that the mount that you "call" doesn't have the extra HD.
The extra HD is an effect from another source that comes into play as soon as it is "called".
I don't really see the reason to count em in for the "calling" by RAW here.
But that doesn't mean that your DM might think/rule otherwise and imply the restriction even after is has been called. xD


Charisma:
- base CHA 17
- Kobold for +3
- Warlock 4 to get Deceive Item (take-10 on UMD). UMD horseshoes of flame (+6 untyped charisma bonus).
- +5 from lvl up
- +5 from Wish
- +6 enhancement bonus from item

= 42 CHA (+16 modifier)

max mount HD:
= 5 from prc lvl + 16 Cha modifier + 1 (standard bonus of the ability itself)
= 22 max HD


As you can see, an epic Beholder Mage mount is no problem, if you apply enough cheese^^

[Rebel7284]

Charisma:
- base CHA 17
- Kobold for +3
- Warlock 4 to get Deceive Item (take-10 on UMD). UMD horseshoes of flame (+6 untyped charisma bonus).
- +5 from lvl up
- +5 from Wish
- +6 enhancement bonus from item

= 42 CHA (+16 modifier)

max mount HD:
= 5 from prc lvl + 16 Cha modifier + 1 (standard bonus of the ability itself)
= 22 max HD


As you can see, an epic Beholder Mage mount is no problem, if you apply enough cheese^^

It's almost trivial to do at level 20, yeah, however I am more interested in getting Charisma higher as soon as possible. Wish x 5 is REAL expensive.

Don't get me wrong, Beholder Mage is clearly still impressive at level 20, but when everyone is throwing around 9th level spells and Epic Spellcasting is just one level away, it gets a bit less shiny. :smallsmile:

On that note, at 21 HD total, Beholder Mage DOES have one Epic feat, so that might be fun to play around with too.

[Beni-Kujaku]

You know, this crossed my mind briefly, but I originally dismissed it as too cheesy.

Using Legacy Champion is too cheesy but choosing a mount that isn't in the class's mount list then arguing that you can put any number of class level on it isn't? I mean, if you can choose the perks of your mount, then why not choose a drider with 20 Charisma (not hard, they can even do that with their spells) as your flying mount (they can cast Fly, they could count as a flying mount. At least as much as a beholder). If you have at least 20 Charisma yourself, you could choose that the drider has one level of Zhentarim Skymage, and a similar drider as her flying mount, which herself has a drider, etcetera. Skymage driders all the way down!!!

[Rebel7284]

Using Legacy Champion is too cheesy but choosing a mount that isn't in the class's mount list then arguing that you can put any number of class level on it isn't? I mean, if you can choose the perks of your mount, then why not choose a drider with 20 Charisma (not hard, they can even do that with their spells) as your flying mount (they can cast Fly, they could count as a flying mount. At least as much as a beholder). If you have at least 20 Charisma yourself, you could choose that the drider has one level of Zhentarim Skymage, and a similar drider as her flying mount, which herself has a drider, etcetera. Skymage driders all the way down!!!

Yes, you can potentially chain this by summoning mounts you can't actually ride. Sylph from MM2 has better casting than Driders and a fly speed, so is probably better for this type of abuse. Or just Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Skymage 5 with Dragonborn (Wings) Template.

With that said, most of those things are playable or easily summonable; it's much harder to have a permanent Beholder Mage on your side.

[Gruftzwerg]

Where is this rule?

My bad; it seems I misremembered the rule. It's sole for humanoid shaped mounts and not for monstrous shaped mounts.


Pushing the bounds of what could be called a mount,
some humanoid-shaped creatures can be ridden.
Because of their shape and carrying capacity, such
mounts are usually two size categories larger than
their riders.
Sorry for that...

[Anthrowhale]

My bad; it seems I misremembered the rule. It's sole for humanoid shaped mounts and not for monstrous shaped mounts.

It also seems to not be a hard rule, since it says "usually". In real life, there are plenty of examples of a young child riding an adult in a backpack for example.

[Gruftzwerg]

It also seems to not be a hard rule, since it says "usually". In real life, there are plenty of examples of a young child riding an adult in a backpack for example.

Usually that is at a very young age where you have the 2 size category difference.
As soon as the size difference shrinks to a single category, imho a regular adult won't be carrying (e.g. a 10 year old) all day along. And not just carrying if we talk about real "riding". You still have to be able to "charge/doublemove".

So imho unless a specific exception is mentioned, the rule should be applied.

[Anthrowhale]

Usually that is at a very young age where you have the 2 size category difference.
As soon as the size difference shrinks to a single category, imho a regular adult won't be carrying (e.g. a 10 year old) all day along. And not just carrying if we talk about real "riding". You still have to be able to "charge/doublemove".

So imho unless a specific exception is mentioned, the rule should be applied.

Weight changes by a factor of 8 across a size category (as it should for a 3-dimensional object). Hence, a 200lb adult carrying a 25lb child is along the lines of what we are talking about. That's typically somewhere around year 2 for IRL humans. Halflings are a little bit large for their size category, weighing 30lb (female) or 35lb (male) which corresponds to late year 2 or year 3 which corresponds better to a half-orc (250 lbs) than a human. A 10 year old is typically more like 70lbs and might fit a low end "medium" better than a small. You would want something ~560lbs for a factor of 8 larger. That's typically something large like an ogre (listed as 600-650lbs).

[Chronos]

Is it the Cha mod itself that we need to optimize, or is it a Cha check that we want to make absolutely sure not to fail? If the latter, then you really want a one-level dip in Marshal, for the Motivate Charisma aura, which effectively doubles your Cha mod.

[Rebel7284]

Is it the Cha mod itself that we need to optimize, or is it a Cha check that we want to make absolutely sure not to fail? If the latter, then you really want a one-level dip in Marshal, for the Motivate Charisma aura, which effectively doubles your Cha mod.


The mount cannot have more Hit Dice than the Zhentarim skymage's class level + his Charisma modifier + 1

Just the modifier.