Converting a 2nd edition weapon for flavor

[RNightstalker]

I want to convert the Lightning Blade from Encyclopedia Magica Volume Four to a 3.x edition weapon and going to need some help on this one.

Here are the basics:
-Crafted of Platinum inlaid with gold lightning bolts running down the sides.
-+4, +5 vs. water breathing creatures
-Ten rounds after drawing or upon speaking a command word, a 7-die lightning bolt can be discharged 1/rd for up to seven rounds.
-Sword discharges 2d6 electrical damage to wielder once the sword begins to glow after the ten rounds or command word is spoken, and continues to discharge each round until a lightning bolt is discharged.
-Once drawn, cannot be sheathed until a lightning bolt is discharged.

So the easy part:
longsword: 15
Mithral (includes masterwork, description is close enough to platinum): 2000 (5k/lb, 4 lbs)
+4: 32000

The hard part:
the proper/best use of the spell effect and special headers in estimating gp value for the lightning discharges. So I seek the help of the playground.

May the dice roll in your favor.

[Ramza00]

We are talking a 3rdish level effect here.

3*7*360*5 will be the price for a unlimited command word item of a 3rd level spell.

So that will be a 37,800 if bought and prior to putting the negative costs to it which assign a penalty to the user but in theory the item should be cheaper.

[RNightstalker]

Where did you get the 360 from?

[Ramza00]

Where did you get the 360 from?

It is actually 1800 if you allow 5 charges or unlimited. But if you allow a 1/day command item it is 360, 2 a day is 720, aka 1800/# of charges per a day but 5 is now unlimited.

This is per the SRD. Eternal Wands are also the same formula but they include 100 gp extra similar to how magic armours are 300 gp extra for the masterwork quality.

[RNightstalker]

So for 70k I've got a sword that can shoot a lightning bolt whenever I want? Would you reduce the price any more for having to take damage first?

[loky1109]

Mithral (includes masterwork, description is close enough to platinum)

Mithral is near opposite to platinum. Mithral is extremely light, platinum is extremely heavy. You need to look into PGtF (iirc) for platinum weapon.

[Saintheart]

Mithral is near opposite to platinum. Mithral is extremely light, platinum is extremely heavy. You need to look into PGtF (iirc) for platinum weapon.

Magic of Faerun, p. 179 - Heavy weapons sidebar.

[Darg]

We are talking a 3rdish level effect here.

3*7*360*5 will be the price for a unlimited command word item of a 3rd level spell.

So that will be a 37,800 if bought and prior to putting the negative costs to it which assign a penalty to the user but in theory the item should be cheaper.

It's a use-activated item for sure as use activated can incorporate a command word in addition, it's unlimited use, and the item in question has a draw to use/command word hybrid activation mechanic which fits.

So the specifics are:

Made of platinum (magic of faerun) - heavy Longsword +7000 gp, 2d6 damage, must be wielded in 2h or suffer -4 penalty without the exotic heavy weapon proficiency.
+4 enhancement - +32000 gp
+1 for Bane (aquatic) - +18000
Masterwork - +300 gp
longsword - +15 gp

Base price is 57315 gp

use-activation - +182000 gp. (based on unlimited use 7 die call lightning as 2 levels up is call lightning storm at 5 die. following the pattern level 7 would be 7 die.) ( 7 * 13 * 2000)
Can be modified with a hefty discount for the limitation on the use and the self harm aspect. I recommend a 75% discount which will leave us at a +45,500 gp. ( 10 rounds off, 7 rounds on = 41% of the time activated. The delay should be worth at least 10% and the self harm isn't bad at 6% as vicious saves a +1 price cost as a comparison.)

Total - 102,815 gp.

Obviously the discount can be adjusted to better fit your game.

[Vaern]

Is call lightning [storm] the best spell to be using? The fact that activating the item lets you shoot lightning multiple times on subsequent rounds does look kind of like the effect of call lightning, but the lightning bolt itself is presumably being fired from the sword like lightning bolt and deals 7 dice of damage like a CL 7 lightning bolt. The fact that the item can discharge several times on subsequent rounds is kind of irrelevant if its being priced as an unlimited-use spell effect regardless of the spell chosen as its base.

Also, I'd write off the platinum as fluff. Maybe say it's alloyed or inlaid with platinum rather than solid platinum to avoid the heavy weapon quality. The intent of the thread seems to be pricing an item that functions as closely to the original as possible, and incorporating special material properties that likely didn't exist at the time changes the functionality of the weapon which takes us a step away from our ultimate goal.

[Darg]

The heavy weapon quality isn't all that bad. It just turns the longsword into a better bastard sword for 200 times the cost, or a better greatsword for the cost and a feat.

As for using call lightning and call lightning storm, they are similar effects to what was described. They are able to throw a bolt per round unlike lightning bolt or chain lightning. It makes them the closest in terms of qualities to base a price around.

[Ramza00]

Yes Call Lightning and Call Lightning Storm exists, but we should not punish people by overpricing the effect.

This is a 3rd level spell effect not a 5th level. You can get similar damage from Darkfire. Likewise Lightning Bolt and Fireball. If you are paying 1800 gp * CL * SL you should be able to use it unlimited times per day.

Yes CL Storm exists but I do not think it is the best comparison, and we should not overprice the effect.

[Vaern]

The heavy weapon quality isn't all that bad. It just turns the longsword into a better bastard sword for 200 times the cost, or a better greatsword for the cost and a feat.

As for using call lightning and call lightning storm, they are similar effects to what was described. They are able to throw a bolt per round unlike lightning bolt or chain lightning. It makes them the closest in terms of qualities to base a price around.

I wasn't arguing that the quality was bad, only that it changes the weapon so it functions differently from the original.

As for the spell prerequisite, I'd argue that lightning bolt is a better fit. Call lightning [storm] causes lightning to strike a target's space from above. The sword is described as discharging lightning itself, presumably in a line from the wielder's space through the target's. The fact that the lightning bolt is described as dealing 7 dice of damage with no listed range indicates that the base effect is one with variable damage and fixed range, which are both consistent with lightning bolt and inconsistent with call lightning. The lightning's path and damage are consistent with the effect of lightning bolt and can't be reproduced by call lightning.

Magic items aren't required to exactly emulate the spell used to create them. Some creative interpretation is always acceptable for the sake of making an item unique. The fact that activating the item gives you a 7-round window in which you can discharge a lightning bolt per round despite lightning bolt not having such a duration can be written off as a quirk of the item; it doesn't significantly affect the functionality or price of the item as it's already priced as unlimited-use.
The same could be said for making an item of call lightning that can shoot horizontally - not a big deal, that much is just a bit of creative interpretation and a quirk of a unique item. An item of call lightning that deals 7 dice worth of damage, though, is significantly more powerful that the spell being used to price the item. Even your own pricing suggestion required extrapolating call lightning storm past its normal capabilities to use a nonexistent theoretical spell as the base for your calculations. Lightning bolt is simply a cleaner and easier fit.

Plus, now that I have a bit of free time to do so, I've found scans of the source (https://www.scribd.com/document/374424217/Encyclopedia-Magica-Volume-4#) via Google. Lightning bolt is italicized in the description, indicating that it produces the effect of lightning bolt as the spell.

[OracleofWuffing]

Don't lightning bolts rebound off of walls and hit multiple targets in 2e? If so, that's a reduction in potential damage and could be a point that the sword should be slightly cheaper now that it doesn't do as much. Granted, there's also less of a chance of friendly fire now, but you know what they say about omelettes and orphanages.

(Or, if you don't mind making the item cost more, I suppose it could re-implement the rebound rules just for its own lightning bolts.)

[RNightstalker]

Don't lightning bolts rebound off of walls and hit multiple targets in 2e? If so, that's a reduction in potential damage and could be a point that the sword should be slightly cheaper now that it doesn't do as much. Granted, there's also less of a chance of friendly fire now, but you know what they say about omelettes and orphanages.

(Or, if you don't mind making the item cost more, I suppose it could re-implement the rebound rules just for its own lightning bolts.)

I don't remember if they bounce off the walls in 2nd, not really looking for that. Going to stick with the platinum blade, and I might even upgrade the CL a little for shiggles. CLS actually won't be as effective, as how often do enemies stack themselves vertically? Shooting from the blade there's a much greater chance to hit multiple enemies. I don't remember if it was a house rule or not, but I could fork the bolt to hit multiple enemies that way.

Thanks Playground!

[Saintheart]

Made of platinum (magic of faerun) - heavy Longsword +7000 gp, 2d6 damage, must be wielded in 2h or suffer -4 penalty without the exotic heavy weapon proficiency.

I'm not sure if that's right, and I made the same mistake on reading the Heavy entry too. It's not exactly the same as bastard sword's "wield 1 handed with EWP, 2 handed as martial", it says you only avoid the -4 if you wield a heavy weapon one size smaller than your own in two hands. A small longsword does 1d6 damage, and a heavy version of a small longsword would do 1d8 damage. There would literally be no benefit. And worse still, because you'd be wielding a weapon not sized optimally for the user, under 3.5 rules you'd still take a -2 to your attack rolls.

The source is likely how the rules on inappropriately sized weapons were changed: MoF was written under the 3.0 rules in mind, which allowed you to wield one-handed Large weapons two-handed as a Medium character and take no penalties IIRC. Likely they wanted a similar mechanic for heavy weapons, i.e. any problem with wielding a big, cumbersome heavy that's of smaller size than you is overcome by using two hands.

However, by a small quirk, there is one slight benefit, and it comes from the odd indication on MoF's table that a Heavy version of a 1d8 or 1d10 weapon does 2d6. A bastard sword natively does 1d10, a small bastard sword does 1d8. And a Heavy small bastard sword does 2d6 damage -- per MoF's table, which is not the same as just the sizing table. So there is still a net increase. A Heavy small bastard sword therefore could be wielded in two hands without needing an EWP and without taking the -4 for the lack of a Heavy EWP ... but it'd still result in -2 to attack rolls, because you're still wielding a (Small) weapon when you are a (Medium) character.

[RNightstalker]

I'm not sure if that's right, and I made the same mistake on reading the Heavy entry too. It's not exactly the same as bastard sword's "wield 1 handed with EWP, 2 handed as martial", it says you only avoid the -4 if you wield a heavy weapon one size smaller than your own in two hands. A small longsword does 1d6 damage, and a heavy version of a small longsword would do 1d8 damage. There would literally be no benefit. And worse still, because you'd be wielding a weapon not sized optimally for the user, under 3.5 rules you'd still take a -2 to your attack rolls.

The source is likely how the rules on inappropriately sized weapons were changed: MoF was written under the 3.0 rules in mind, which allowed you to wield one-handed Large weapons two-handed as a Medium character and take no penalties IIRC. Likely they wanted a similar mechanic for heavy weapons, i.e. any problem with wielding a big, cumbersome heavy that's of smaller size than you is overcome by using two hands.

However, by a small quirk, there is one slight benefit, and it comes from the odd indication on MoF's table that a Heavy version of a 1d8 or 1d10 weapon does 2d6. A bastard sword natively does 1d10, a small bastard sword does 1d8. And a Heavy small bastard sword does 2d6 damage -- per MoF's table, which is not the same as just the sizing table. So there is still a net increase. A Heavy small bastard sword therefore could be wielded in two hands without needing an EWP and without taking the -4 for the lack of a Heavy EWP ... but it'd still result in -2 to attack rolls, because you're still wielding a (Small) weapon when you are a (Medium) character.

The point of making it a longsword is so it can be wielded one-handed. I guess for mechanics a mithral sword will have to do. But actually, maybe there's another material out there that could (for flavor) theoretically improve the performance of the lightning bolt function: for example the way copper conducts electricity better.

[Jay R]

This is a custom build; it requires DM approval. The person you need to get advice from is your DM.

In my game, I would say, "That idea doesn't fit 3.5e. Find a 3.5e-consistent item instead." But what I think doesn't matter. Only the DM can approve a custom weapon design, so consult the DM.

[RNightstalker]

This is a custom build; it requires DM approval. The person you need to get advice from is your DM.

In my game, I would say, "That idea doesn't fit 3.5e. Find a 3.5e-consistent item instead." But what I think doesn't matter. Only the DM can approve a custom weapon design, so consult the DM.

Gotta have something to bring to the DM. The more I can do on my part as a player is less on the DM where all that is required is a yay or nay and feedback, instead of expecting the DM to do all of that.