Ritual stabbing people

[Mordante]

Question regarding damage in DnD 3.5.

If I want to make blood offers to deities how does the damage work? My fighter has about 180hp this means that I could in theory stab myself with a dagger many times before it would do any serious damage., but somehow that doesn't feel right.

So how would it work if my fighter takes a dagger in puts it in his chest or or the chest of someone else. It doesn't matter who is the target of a sanguine ritual. My goal isn't to sacrifice people, although I was thinking of offering a new-born, but that might be overdoing it. In game my character needs to make 3 offers, one for each of the following.

Winter Lady, The embodiment of the maiden and youth aspect of the Triple Goddess,
Winter Queen, The embodiment of the mother and lifer giver aspect of the Triple Goddess
Winter Mother. The embodiment of destruction and death aspect of the Triple Goddess

But I digress.

So what would actually happen if I stab someone out of combat, would a dagger in my chest kill me or can I would around all day long with a dagger sticking in my chest? Also tips for offers and or sacrifices are welcome. My character isn't evil.

[Inevitability]

The death urge (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/deathUrge.htm) power gives what might be the most concrete rules for self-damaging, and rules that a subject genuinely trying to bring about their own demise hits themselves for... regular crit damage. So yes, despite all the assertations that 'HP represent luck and skill as well as meat', a high-level PC can very much survive stabbing themselves with a dagger a few dozen times.

[Tzardok]

Stabbing someone who's helpless (for example, bound on an altar) is governed by the Coup de Grace rules.

[Mordante]

Stabbing someone who's helpless (for example, bound on an altar) is governed by the Coup de Grace rules.

Coup de Grace doesn't apply since there is no intent to kill someone. The intent is get blood for a ritual or as offering. Preferable from a willing subject, who should survive.

[Crake]

Bloodletting specifically is almost certainly covered by con damage. Stirges are a great example of this, vampires too, though they deal con drain, probably due to the supernatural nature of their blood sucking.

So it wouldn't be your hp, but your con score that determines just how much blood you can provide.

[Eurus]

On one hand, the Blood Magus prestige class can draw small amounts of blood from themselves to power their class features as a free action dealing them 1-3 points of damage. On the other hand, having your blood sucked by a giant leech or a vampire generally deals constitution damage or drain. So it's a bit inconsistent.

Either one of these things is survivable, especially if you have a healer on hand. I guess getting a cleric to help you with a blood sacrifice might be hard (even an evil cleric might feel like helping with a sacrifice to someone else's god is a bit unprofessional!), but maybe you can keep some magic items for healing and just... pay someone for their blood?

[Crake]

On one hand, the Blood Magus prestige class can draw small amounts of blood from themselves to power their class features as a free action dealing them 1-3 points of damage. On the other hand, having your blood sucked by a giant leech or a vampire generally deals constitution damage or drain. So it's a bit inconsistent.

Either one of these things is survivable, especially if you have a healer on hand. I guess getting a cleric to help you with a blood sacrifice might be hard (even an evil cleric might feel like helping with a sacrifice to someone else's god is a bit unprofessional!), but maybe you can keep some magic items for healing and just... pay someone for their blood?

I think the blood magus is more just small cuts to produce a drop of blood, vs con damage representing significant volumes of blood.

[Telonius]

HP is an abstraction. You can't really get a good definition of, "How bad is a 1hp wound," just because people have different levels of hit points generally. Against an elderly Level-1 Commoner, 1hp might be a quarter or even a half of their full hit points. Against a level-20 Barbarian, it's a papercut.

As far as a ritual like that is concerned, I don't think there's a specific rule for it. I'd probably ask how much blood you actually need to attract the attention of the three goddesses. If it's just a drop, nothing that would seriously put the "donor" at risk? Just handwave it as an action taken as part of the ritual, with no HP loss. If you need more - something like a vial's worth - 1 or 2 CON damage would probably be appropriate; no attack roll necessary unless the "donor" is struggling (for purposes of the ritual only). Enough that they'd feel it; but nothing life-threatening unless they're already horribly feeble, and healed relatively quickly if they don't push it.

[Nat20]

Any way you could get your hands on a ring of regeneration?
Any way you could hire a high level wizard to make you a simulacrum?

Expensive solutions, but you could poke holes in yourself every day, and the simulacrum is under your absolute command so it would take it willingly, even to the death.

[GloatingSwine]

Modelling it as damage is probably the wrong way to go if you're intending it to be some kind of long term ritual.

Decide how much blood it is, and if the answer is "a whole lot to come from a single person all at once" then maybe make them fatigued.

[Metastachydium]

HP is an abstraction. You can't really get a good definition of, "How bad is a 1hp wound," just because people have different levels of hit points generally. Against an elderly Level-1 Commoner, 1hp might be a quarter or even a half of their full hit points. Against a level-20 Barbarian, it's a papercut.

Interesting fact: this being 3.5, it is trivial to make a level 20+ character with, like, 3 hp in total (e.g. Old High Elven Wizard with the Quick trait or Frail flaw and a toad or a single instance of Toughness).


As far as a ritual like that is concerned, I don't think there's a specific rule for it. I'd probably ask how much blood you actually need to attract the attention of the three goddesses. If it's just a drop, nothing that would seriously put the "donor" at risk? Just handwave it as an action taken as part of the ritual, with no HP loss. If you need more - something like a vial's worth - 1 or 2 CON damage would probably be appropriate; no attack roll necessary unless the "donor" is struggling (for purposes of the ritual only). Enough that they'd feel it; but nothing life-threatening unless they're already horribly feeble, and healed relatively quickly if they don't push it.

The Hooded PupilLM drinks blood through lapping it up from just about any wound (they don't innately get bite attacks)m which, I suppose, could model casual bloodletting about fine. It deals 2 CON damage. Meanwhile, a Wounding weapon, well, wounds people so as to maximize natural bleeding from the wound. It's weapon damage + 1 CON.

[Remuko]

....I was thinking of offering a new-born....My character isn't evil.

Really? Neutral seems a hard sell for someone willing to "offer a newborn" for a blood ritual...

[Mordante]

Really? Neutral seems a hard sell for someone willing to "offer a newborn" for a blood ritual...

If it helps to win the battle why not? My character would love to live in a "good" world. But has been around long enough that good really doesn't exist. He started life as a soldier fighting for the "good side" but then found out the "good side" did the same things they accused to bad guys from. Next he became a mercenary, and fought for different rulers. He found out that rulers just were looking out for themselves. Get more power more wealth. So instead of focusing on the world he started to focus more on his own. And thus became a Archblade and just walks the world not fighting for any big kingdom or powerful persons. But fighting for things he thinks are worth it.

[Inevitability]

If it helps to win the battle why not? My character would love to live in a "good" world. But has been around long enough that good really doesn't exist. He started life as a soldier fighting for the "good side" but then found out the "good side" did the same things they accused to bad guys from. Next he became a mercenary, and fought for different rulers. He found out that rulers just were looking out for themselves. Get more power more wealth. So instead of focusing on the world he started to focus more on his own. And thus became a Archblade and just walks the world not fighting for any big kingdom or powerful persons. But fighting for things he thinks are worth it.

I think it's a lot easier to argue that everything is morally ambiguous and 'good' doesn't really exist when you yourself aren't, y'know, sacrificing children.

[Mordante]

I think it's a lot easier to argue that everything is morally ambiguous and 'good' doesn't really exist when you yourself aren't, y'know, sacrificing children.

I have to be careful that I don't let too many of my personal view points in life seep through into DnD :cool:

[Crake]

If it helps to win the battle why not? My character would love to live in a "good" world. But has been around long enough that good really doesn't exist. He started life as a soldier fighting for the "good side" but then found out the "good side" did the same things they accused to bad guys from. Next he became a mercenary, and fought for different rulers. He found out that rulers just were looking out for themselves. Get more power more wealth. So instead of focusing on the world he started to focus more on his own. And thus became a Archblade and just walks the world not fighting for any big kingdom or powerful persons. But fighting for things he thinks are worth it.

You're describing pragmatic evil.

There is no good "side", only good people. You can choose to live up to moral standards, or you can choose to give up and take the easy path "for the greater good". Tyranny in the name of a greater good, for example, is still tyranny.

[Segev]

The death urge (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/deathUrge.htm) power gives what might be the most concrete rules for self-damaging, and rules that a subject genuinely trying to bring about their own demise hits themselves for... regular crit damage. So yes, despite all the assertations that 'HP represent luck and skill as well as meat', a high-level PC can very much survive stabbing themselves with a dagger a few dozen times.

Death urge is also still an effect that is trying to kill them. HP representing luck, narrative plot armor, and other intangibles explains why it's "merely" a critical hit. Whether it's "something inside him fighting it" or the fact that his armor is in the way or just plain bad luck, his best efforts to kill himself (in the portion of six seconds that represents his standard action) just aren't "good enough" to finish the job (unless he's low on hp for some reason already).

Even a helpless figure has these narrative protections. If they don't, they don't have that many hp to withstand the coup de grace, and die.


A victim tied to an altar and truly out of any protections from death by sacrifice should be modeled as having most of their hp stripped away (if they had many to begin with).

You can also model the "repeated coup de grace" against a high-hp character as, instead of comedically stabbing them and screaming "WHY! WON'T! YOU! DIE!?" the coup de grace damage is them doing ritual preparations. Pricks here and there to do a little blood-letting, or to cut gentle symbolic wounds or runes into their skin. It could even - since this won't need to break skin to justify poison or the like - just be the sacrificing ritualist talking in that banter-with-the-heroes trope. The hp damage is merely a tracker for how long until the knife finally falls for real.

Hp are a dramatic tension tool. Adapt them and use them appropriately with that in mind. Model the hp loss in fitting ways, and I think you'll find the scenes far more satisfying.

[Crake]

Death urge is also still an effect that is trying to kill them. HP representing luck, narrative plot armor, and other intangibles explains why it's "merely" a critical hit. Whether it's "something inside him fighting it" or the fact that his armor is in the way or just plain bad luck, his best efforts to kill himself (in the portion of six seconds that represents his standard action) just aren't "good enough" to finish the job (unless he's low on hp for some reason already).

Even a helpless figure has these narrative protections. If they don't, they don't have that many hp to withstand the coup de grace, and die.


A victim tied to an altar and truly out of any protections from death by sacrifice should be modeled as having most of their hp stripped away (if they had many to begin with).

You can also model the "repeated coup de grace" against a high-hp character as, instead of comedically stabbing them and screaming "WHY! WON'T! YOU! DIE!?" the coup de grace damage is them doing ritual preparations. Pricks here and there to do a little blood-letting, or to cut gentle symbolic wounds or runes into their skin. It could even - since this won't need to break skin to justify poison or the like - just be the sacrificing ritualist talking in that banter-with-the-heroes trope. The hp damage is merely a tracker for how long until the knife finally falls for real.

Hp are a dramatic tension tool. Adapt them and use them appropriately with that in mind. Model the hp loss in fitting ways, and I think you'll find the scenes far more satisfying.

I feel like you’re forgetting the fort save or die portion of a coup de grace, DC10+ damage dealt. Thats the real threat of a coup de grace, not the damage. It’s particularly nasty with sneak attack added on

[Segev]

I feel like you’re forgetting the fort save or die portion of a coup de grace, DC10+ damage dealt. Thats the real threat of a coup de grace, not the damage. It’s particularly nasty with sneak attack added on

That's fair, and certainly makes it able to kill just about anybody.

I will stand by the suggestion of using hp damage ticking down "attack" by "attack" to stand in for the clock to when the bad guy actually commits to the killing blow while banter or other stuff is going on, though.

[Tzardok]

I don't like that interpretation. High level characters are literally tough enough to walk away from point blank explosions. Unrealistic? Maybe, but not less realistic than fire-breathing dragons or spellcasters raining doom on the world.

[Segev]

I don't like that interpretation. High level characters are literally tough enough to walk away from point blank explosions. Unrealistic? Maybe, but not less realistic than fire-breathing dragons or spellcasters raining doom on the world.

I don't see how this conflicts with the interpretations put forth here. Can you elaborate, please?

[Tzardok]

I don't see how this conflicts with the interpretations put forth here. Can you elaborate, please?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your interpretation is that the attacks between characters are just "stressing" or "psyching" them out, maybe giving small cuts and stuff, until you can land an "actual" attack, which just takes longer for characters with higher hit points, yes? High level characters can take just as much actual punishment as low level characters, they just are better at keeping their head and avoiding the punishment.

I dislike this interpretation, and I think it contradicts the definition of hitpoints as given in the PHB. I think that characters are literally growing superhumanly tough, that an attack that deals enough damage to instantly kill a low level character and the same amount of damage to a high-level character can be represented by the same kind of wound (for example, a stab through the chest). It's just that the high-level character can walk off a sword through the chest.

[Segev]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your interpretation is that the attacks between characters are just "stressing" or "psyching" them out, maybe giving small cuts and stuff, until you can land an "actual" attack, which just takes longer for characters with higher hit points, yes? High level characters can take just as much actual punishment as low level characters, they just are better at keeping their head and avoiding the punishment.

I dislike this interpretation, and I think it contradicts the definition of hitpoints as given in the PHB. I think that characters are literally growing superhumanly tough, that an attack that deals enough damage to instantly kill a low level character and the same amount of damage to a high-level character can be represented by the same kind of wound (for example, a stab through the chest). It's just that the high-level character can walk off a sword through the chest.

I think it's a combination, and what that combination is depends heavily on the creature in question. I think some ARE getting that supernaturally tough. I think others are just That Good and can hold off the fatal blows that much longer. And many are some mix of the two: supernaturally tough AND good at keeping the blows down to mere flesh wounds that their supernatural toughness can let them functionally ignore...except insofar as they slow them down enough that that final blow will get them.

[Crake]

Segev, if you want a system that more closely matches what you’re describing, you should check out d20 modern. It changes the massive damage rule such that it triggers any time you take damage equal to or over your con score, however failing the save just puts you at -1, instead of killing you outright, so it creates more of a deadly environment where the big blows are potentially lethal no matter what your hp pool is.

[Segev]

Segev, if you want a system that more closely matches what you’re describing, you should check out d20 modern. It changes the massive damage rule such that it triggers any time you take damage equal to or over your con score, however failing the save just puts you at -1, instead of killing you outright, so it creates more of a deadly environment where the big blows are potentially lethal no matter what your hp pool is.

That is literally the opposite of what I suggest. >_> Did you mean to reference someone else?

[Crake]

That is literally the opposite of what I suggest. >_> Did you mean to reference someone else?

No, i meant you, but i guess i got the wrong idea of the intent of your post.