Swopping Sorcerer and warlock mechanics

[Bane's Wolf]

Okay, this is going to be a weird one, but bare with me for a sec.
This is just a mental exercise i'd like to play out and see if it could be interesting.

The Sorcerer is a bit of a lost child in dnd. It is essentially a wizard, with some meta-magic and a more limited wizard list.
The subclasses are very cool and thematic, but mechanically they never quite bring across the epic themes of "Magic is part of my very being!". They are stuck with the same spells as the wizard, even using the same material components for their spells, regardless of subclass (mostly)
Metamagic is theoretically very cool, but mostly a bit lackluster in practice.

The Core Fantasy (TM) of sorcerer is meant to be a being imbued and overflowing with magic in their very blood and soul, but in practice they feel like off-brand wizards with a gimmick.


The Warlock has a very strange concept of selling your soul for power. Beings that study and summon ancient tombs to make contact with otherworldly creatures and bargain for power.
And for their trouble, they get a very cool cantrip, and the ability to modify this cantrip to blast better :smallamused:
okay, i'll admit, they get some very cool permanent abilities in the form of build-a-bear invocations and they can specialize in books, blades, or cool familiars.
But there is very little in the Warlock mechanics that scream "Ultimate power, worth selling your soul for".
Mostly its the cantrip and 2 (later 3) spells before they need a recharge.

The Core Fantasy (TM) of Warlock: Making deals with greater beings, on order to unlock the "Arcane secrets of the universe!", but in practice they feel more like an edgy half-caster

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So here is my thought experiment:

*Lets give Warlocks the Sorcerer's spells, and spell slots (and hit dice). They are now proper (normal...?) full casters. They learn Metamagic from their patron (Arcane Secrets that the wizards don't learn)
They still keep the cool Warlock flavoured things, like the Pact books, blades, or cool familiars.

We create and balance cool subclasses for them:
- Blade-pact hexblade (that competes with Bladesinger as the "Martial wizard")
- tomb-pact researcers (to compete with order of scribes wizards)
- chain pact summoners, to... summon stuff? summoning creatures should be a warlock staple :smalltongue:

Warlock becomes the new "other wizard", but with a strong theme. It can also cast everything the wizard can, sometimes even better thanks to metamagic.



*At the same time, we give the sorcerer the warlock's Pact magic (re-dubbed Bloodline magic), and probably hit dice, and some armour proficiency.

We make sorcerer the "Build-a-bear"class. Since their origins differ so much, and bloodlines are unpredictable, no 2 sorcerers will be exactly the same.
Eldritch invocations become "Bloodline gifts (or something cooler?)"
We create or re-flavour the invocations to fit sorcerer themes.
We let these bloodline gifts modify cantrips other than just eldritch blast (in fact, maybe let Warlock keep EB? they did sell their souls, after all)


Now the Sorcerers have powerful cantrips, powerful upcast spells (after which they need a rest, because their magic is always at max power), and they have effects that are always active (thanks to their bloodline gifts). They feel slightly more magic x-men than wizard's stoner cousin... :smallwink:

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Here ends the my thoughts.
I just feel that the mechanics of the warlock fits the fantasy of the sorcerer better, and visa versa.

I don't have exact homebrew plans on every little bit of mechanics that fits each, or how exactly to balance them all, but i'm happy to take suggestions.

What does the Playground think?

[KorvinStarmast]

The simpler choice is to drop the Sorcerer as a PC class.
A not quite as simple choice is to drop the Wizard as a PC class, and make the sorcerer list the wizard list.*
Leave the Warlock alone.

Some sorc players, like me, will go nuts trying to pick spells. :smallbiggrin:

[Hurrashane]

I have thought that the Warlock pact magic would fit better on a sorcerer, though I'd like an even more drastic rework.

My solution would be to change sorcerer into something more like the Pathfinder Kineticist. So you'd get like, an arcane blast that you'd be able to modify be able to change it into various shapes as you level up: cone, pbaoe, aoe, line, etc. Put that along with something like invocations (or bloodline gifts as you called them, not a bad name) that would grant them various other effects.

My proposed sorcerer wouldn't use spells. They'd just be magic. An arcane blaster who's magic isn't formalized into spells, just raw magical energy.

[Bane's Wolf]

My proposed sorcerer wouldn't use spells. They'd just be magic. An arcane blaster who's magic isn't formalized into spells, just raw magical energy.

Oh Yeah :smallbiggrin:
An elemental sorcerer should feel like an Avatar the Last Airbender character

If i could have everything on my wishlist, i would re-design the sorcerer from the ground up to have new mechanics.
- use Con as a casting stat
- no spells, but but some form of build-a-bear raw energy, shaped into the effects needed at the time
- not-quite a half-caster, but definitely a little better with armour, weapons and/or skills
- dump spell slots, in favour of either mana points, or simple free casting


Honestly though, i'm not sure that would work well in 5e dnd. There are many sacred cows that i've become attached to.
As an actionable compromise, i just feel the Warlock template would work very well for the Sorcerer fantasy.

For my home game, i might just put a "warlock" sticker over the sorcerer page and visa versa. Then work with players to make new fluff for the mechanics :smalltongue:

[Hytheter]

My idea has always just been to combine the two classes. Warlock and Sorcerer both share a common theme in that the magic derives from some otherworldly influence, its just that warlocks sell their soul or make some other deal, while sorcerers got blessed by an entity at birth/drank some weird water from a mystic spring/spent too long in another plane/had a grandma who really liked dragons. (Those are all examples right out of the PHB, by the way - sorcerers are not just a matter of bloodline and never have been.)

Several of the subclasses already overlap (celestial, shadowfell, outer god) and many of the others logically could go both ways (in fact, fiends and fey are stated as possible origins for Wild Magic, and the draconic subclass explicitly mentions making a pact with a dragon).

[Kane0]

Wizard, Druid and Artificer: Spell slots
Warlock, Cleric and Ranger: Pact Magic
Sorcerer, Bard and Paladin: Spell Points

Or something

[Jerrykhor]

I know what you mean. The Sorcerer as advertised is like Magneto or Storm from X-Men, but what we got was one of Dr Strange's student who dropped out of the magic school.

IMO Sorcerers shouldn't need V or M components for their spellcasting to feel its an in-born ability. Magneto just waves his hands around for his ability to work. He doesn't need magic words or spell components. Because sorcerers are pretty much like mutants. Mags has one schtick, but he can get really creative with his powers. The problem is that its hard to implement this as a game mechanic.

Also, Sorcerers would be the perfect class to utilitze Hit Dice or even HP as a resource. Straining your last bit of power for that final hail mary is a popular trope.

[Garfunion]

I was helping someone on these forms to create a more friendly version of wild magic similar to the barbarian archetype. They decided to use a build up mechanic in order to activate a wild magic surge.

This got me thinking, what if the mechanic for the sorcerer was in fact a bloodline surge. As they cast spells the power within them builds up until it burst. For example; red dragon bloodline would cause the sorcerer to emit an aura of fire, dealing damage to combustible materials and creatures in the aura.

They could omit a number of creatures equal to their charisma modifier, from taking the damage. This aura would last for a minute or until the sorcerer spends an action to dismiss. While this aura is active the sorcerer can gain additional benefits similar to meta-magic.

[KillingTime]

I honestly like the idea of Sorcerers always casting at max power.
(And perhaps always ignoring material components).
Perhaps that's all I'd swap though...
I think twisting the spells via metamagic is still a good vibe for sorcs.

[Segev]

It isn't what the OP proposes, but his wording on justifying metamagic going to Warlocks gave me the idea:

Leaving everything else alone, what if Mystic Arcana got a metamagic of the Warlock's choice that automatically applied to it when the Warlock cast the spell granted by it?

Even then, I am not sure it is 'enough' given the lack of freedom to upcast these spells, but...

[Bane's Wolf]

My idea has always just been to combine the two classes. Warlock and Sorcerer both share a common theme in that the magic derives from some otherworldly influence, its just that warlocks sell their soul or make some other deal, while sorcerers got blessed by an entity at birth/drank some weird water from a mystic spring/spent too long in another plane/had a grandma who really liked dragons. (Those are all examples right out of the PHB, by the way - sorcerers are not just a matter of bloodline and never have been.)

Several of the subclasses already overlap (celestial, shadowfell, outer god) and many of the others logically could go both ways (in fact, fiends and fey are stated as possible origins for Wild Magic, and the draconic subclass explicitly mentions making a pact with a dragon).

This is a good point. i read through the subclass descriptions last night, and was actually surprised at how easy it would be to re-fluff sorc subclasses to fit Warlock patrons, without even changing the mechanics.

Warlock need a bit of work. Some invocations just don't quite feel right as a "bloodline" ability. As you mention above though, Sorcerers get their abilities from many sources (Sorces... Ha :smallbiggrin:), not just granny liking dragons very much.


I know what you mean. The Sorcerer as advertised is like Magneto or Storm from X-Men, but what we got was one of Dr Strange's student who dropped out of the magic school.

IMO Sorcerers shouldn't need V or M components for their spellcasting to feel its an in-born ability. Magneto just waves his hands around for his ability to work. He doesn't need magic words or spell components. Because sorcerers are pretty much like mutants. Mags has one schtick, but he can get really creative with his powers. The problem is that its hard to implement this as a game mechanic.

Also, Sorcerers would be the perfect class to utilitze Hit Dice or even HP as a resource. Straining your last bit of power for that final hail mary is a popular trope.

Agreed on all points. Including that it is very difficult to implement mechanically.
Just reading through a system like Mutants and masterminds, which simulate superheroes, is enough to make your head dizzy with options.
It works well for that game, but is ridiculously complicated just to make my sorcerer feel right :smalleek:

That's one of the wishlist items i forgot - no M components in their spellcasting. Some V components i can justify, kinda, but i wouldn't mind dumping them either
And i also love the idea of straining your body for it's last shred of magic power, either through HD or by taking Damage. It's very tropey, in a good way :smallbiggrin:


This got me thinking, what if the mechanic for the sorcerer was in fact a bloodline surge. As they cast spells the power within them builds up until it burst. For example; red dragon bloodline would cause the sorcerer to emit an aura of fire, dealing damage to combustible materials and creatures in the aura.


This sounds very cool :smallbiggrin:
I like flavourful subclass abilities like these. I'm just never quite sure when an ability is balanced between classes


I honestly like the idea of Sorcerers always casting at max power.
(And perhaps always ignoring material components).
Perhaps that's all I'd swap though...
I think twisting the spells via metamagic is still a good vibe for sorcs.

Yeah - I really like metamagic as a Sorcerer thing. It fits as part of a Sorc's instinctive manipulation of the weave of magic, allowing them to change existing spells.

It just happens to Also fit my idea of the Warlock's forbidden magical secrets, skills learned from powerful beings, allowing them to push their magic beyond a wizard's capabilities :smalltongue:

[Aimeryan]

My idea has always just been to combine the two classes. Warlock and Sorcerer both share a common theme in that the magic derives from some otherworldly influence, its just that warlocks sell their soul or make some other deal, while sorcerers got blessed by an entity at birth/drank some weird water from a mystic spring/spent too long in another plane/had a grandma who really liked dragons. (Those are all examples right out of the PHB, by the way - sorcerers are not just a matter of bloodline and never have been.)

Several of the subclasses already overlap (celestial, shadowfell, outer god) and many of the others logically could go both ways (in fact, fiends and fey are stated as possible origins for Wild Magic, and the draconic subclass explicitly mentions making a pact with a dragon).

Yup, merge the two, use Pact magic. Patron can be a subclass.

This is mostly what people do anyway, since Warlock is so front loaded and Sorc more steady - just take the Warlock dip as a Sorcerer, basically 95% of the power of the two merged. I would say the Spell Slot system is superior due to being able to nova as needed, so using Pact Magic would pretty much drop it to that 95%.

[Theodoxus]

Go one step further and use the spell point variant, adding sorcery points to the pool.

I'd personally make it even slightly more complicated.

A level 1 spell costs 2 spell points. A level 2 spell costs 3 spell points. Right?

But I would make it cost 1 more to 'downcast' a spell. This really only hurts at 3rd & 4th levels, when it costs 3 points to cast a spell as a 1st or 2nd level spell, but at 5th level, you might prefer to cast Shield for 3 points instead of 5. It extends the Sorcerer's casting power, but still encourages 'maximized' spells, granting granularity if the player so choses without making downcasting the de facto optimal choice like it currently is for 5E Warlocks who get to use spell points.

[Hytheter]

A level 1 spell costs 2 spell points. A level 2 spell costs 3 spell points. Right?

Tangential but I really hate this. Why can't it just be a simple 1:1 progression instead of the wobbly junk they have now?

[clash]

Tangential but I really hate this. Why can't it just be a simple 1:1 progression instead of the wobbly junk they have now?

It's an attempt to remedy the non linear scale of spell slots but it's really janky. Just fix the way works scale across slots instead.

[Witty Username]

The simpler choice is to drop the Sorcerer as a PC class.
A not quite as simple choice is to drop the Wizard as a PC class, and make the sorcerer list the wizard list.*
Leave the Warlock alone.

Some sorc players, like me, will go nuts trying to pick spells. :smallbiggrin:

I am with this some,
I think sorcerer staying in has merit (its other people's jam), but I don't much care for it and I don't think it pairs with world building well. I think if wizard was dropped I might actually stop playing D&D though (maybe if sorcerer was switched to an Int class? I think that is more dropping sorcerer and using its mechanics for wizard).

[KyleG]

I think sorcerer works better than wizard from a story point of view. My head cannon is that wizards (npcs) are just sorcerers who have settled down to expand on what they can do with their magic. Kinda like a gestalt class.

[Aimeryan]

I'm fine with a Sorcerer thematically; Wizard is learned power, Sorcerer is inherited power.
The problem is that mechanically there isn't that much space that doesn't cause a lot of blurring and direct comparisons. The Warlock space is quite distinct, however.

Thematically, the Warlock is another form of inherited power - that from a patron. It could easily be a subclass of Sorcerer. They even share Charisma. Merge the two and use the distinct mechanics of the two (Pact Magic-like Spell Slots, Cantrips as more than a last-resort, Invocations, Metamagic) - this happens in practice anyway, and doesn't overshadow the Wizard. It puts both classes in a far better place.

[stoutstien]

I don't have to reconcile sorcerers and wizards because I don't have wizards in my setting but if I did it would be:

Wizards don't actually cast magic they cast spells. Spells are magic adjacent they are little tricks that have been learned and passed down as workarounds for those who aren't magical to access magic to a limited degree. This is why spells do what they say. It explains the structure behind schools of magic, organized structure learning, and spell books/spells.

Sorcerers on the other hand are magical. It flows through them and manifests directly. They don't cast spells they produce magical effects. The nature of these effects are usually limited based on the source of this magic but that's about the only parameters. That and the inherent stress it has on the soul.

[Slingbow]

Seems like swapping names would accomplish what the rewritten fluff doesn't.

[Theodoxus]

I don't have to reconcile sorcerers and wizards because I don't have wizards in my setting but if I did it would be:

Wizards don't actually cast magic they cast spells. Spells are magic adjacent they are little tricks that have been learned and passed down as workarounds for those who aren't magical to access magic to a limited degree. This is why spells do what they say. It explains the structure behind schools of magic, organized structure learning, and spell books/spells.

Sorcerers on the other hand are magical. It flows through them and manifests directly. They don't cast spells they produce magical effects. The nature of these effects are usually limited based on the source of this magic but that's about the only parameters. That and the inherent stress it has on the soul.

This is similar to what I have. Spells are code that tells the nanites of my world to augment reality in the way the caster desires. Over time, the nanites have been infused with arcane, divine, occult, and primal energies unleashed on the planet from catastrophic events in the past; the influence of passing godlike creatures, opening portals and gateways to the Elemental Chaos, Astral Sea, inner and outer planes, etc. Over the eons of time since the original humans AI'd themselves into a W.A.L.L.E. type bliss, the nanites have expanded across earth.

Wizards don't exist, but Wizardry does: finding ancient Spells (codes) that unlock the nanites (that no one now knows even exist). The majority of mages are either sorcerer style casters, who were born with specific nanites already in their system that give them access to essentially 'proto-code', or are followers of the One True God (Dyzan, god of the sun) who grants them divine power through prayers that are just hard-coded Spells that are passed down from Cleric to Cleric.

But mages who practice Wizardry do exist, it's just the way they learn and manipulate 'magic' that is different. A mage player chooses their magical tradition (divine (prepared) sorcery (known), witchcraft (Warlock style Pact), or wizardry (learned) and then their power source (arcane, divine, primal, or occult) and based on those two choices, will influence the way their class actually works.

It's been interesting setting up the power dynamics, and having nanites as the 'magic source' for the world, means martials can have nice things; augmenting a mundane ability with magic infused Dust seems to keep players from griping too much about the Guy at the Gym making fire with his mind.

[stoutstien]

This is similar to what I have. Spells are code that tells the nanites of my world to augment reality in the way the caster desires. Over time, the nanites have been infused with arcane, divine, occult, and primal energies unleashed on the planet from catastrophic events in the past; the influence of passing godlike creatures, opening portals and gateways to the Elemental Chaos, Astral Sea, inner and outer planes, etc. Over the eons of time since the original humans AI'd themselves into a W.A.L.L.E. type bliss, the nanites have expanded across earth.

Wizards don't exist, but Wizardry does: finding ancient Spells (codes) that unlock the nanites (that no one now knows even exist). The majority of mages are either sorcerer style casters, who were born with specific nanites already in their system that give them access to essentially 'proto-code', or are followers of the One True God (Dyzan, god of the sun) who grants them divine power through prayers that are just hard-coded Spells that are passed down from Cleric to Cleric.

But mages who practice Wizardry do exist, it's just the way they learn and manipulate 'magic' that is different. A mage player chooses their magical tradition (divine (prepared) sorcery (known), witchcraft (Warlock style Pact), or wizardry (learned) and then their power source (arcane, divine, primal, or occult) and based on those two choices, will influence the way their class actually works.

It's been interesting setting up the power dynamics, and having nanites as the 'magic source' for the world, means martials can have nice things; augmenting a mundane ability with magic infused Dust seems to keep players from griping too much about the Guy at the Gym making fire with his mind.

One of the big changes I made was that magic, outside of 2 forms, is relatively new. Wizard's don't exist because the total time needed to figure out how to circumvent it's nature just hasn't occurred.
The two old forms of magic are runic and sigil which have there own limitations.
Oh and dwarfs are the new kids on the block.