Scout/Rogue Sniping Confusion

[Fuzzy Math]

Good local time of day, fellow Playgrounders! I'm working on a rogue 17/scout 3 build with the idea of hiding and sniping, with the idea of getting skirmish and SA. I am building a Dark Whisper Gnome around using a hand crossbow, with Hand Crossbow Focus which allows me to reload as a free action(if other info is needed, I can provide). I'm currently experiencing some confusion as to how it is supposed to work.

Here is my understanding upon first reading:


I can attempt to hide as part of my move action, meaning I can move half my normal distance without penalty. This uses my move action.
At the end of my movement, assuming I'm within distance and successfully hidden, I can make a single attack that makes use of both my Sneak Attack and Skirmish. (Sneak attack kicking off by attacking from a hidden position and Skirmish kicking off because I moved at least 10 feet.)
I then make another Hide check with a -20 penalty to immediately hide after the attack, with no movement available as I've already used it. This completes my round.
New round, already hidden if step 3 successful, can move my half distance, attack, then attempt to hide again.
Rinse and repeat.

Here is my understanding upon second reading:


I can attempt to hide as part of my move action, meaning I can move half my normal distance without penalty. This uses my move action.
At the end of my movement, assuming I'm within distance and successfully hidden, I can make a single attack that makes use of both my Sneak Attack and Skirmish. (Sneak attack kicking off by attacking from a hidden position and Skirmish kicking off because I moved at least 10 feet.)
I cannot use the Sniping function of Hide, as I've already used my movement, as hiding immediately after a ranged attack is a move action. This completes my round.
Caught out in the open with my pants down, get pummeled, and die.

Finally, my understanding upon third reading:


I can attempt to hide as part of my move action, meaning I can move half my normal distance without penalty. This uses my move action.
At the end of my movement, assuming I'm within distance and successfully hidden, I can make a single attack that makes use of both my Sneak Attack and Skirmish. (Sneak attack kicking off by attacking from a hidden position and Skirmish kicking off because I moved at least 10 feet.)
I ignore the Sniping function of Hide, but I can make a Hide check with a -20 penalty to hide while attacking. "Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. ItÂ’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging." This completes my round.
New round, already hidden if step 3 successful, can move my half distance, attack, then attempt to hide again.
Rinse and repeat.


Which reading is correct? If my third reading is correct, would I be able to use a full attack action once iteratives come online to get SA damage on each attack, assuming I make the Hide check each time?

[tyckspoon]

Hiding normally requires 2 conditions: You must be under cover or concealment, and you must not be being observed. Assuming you meet those conditions, you may make a Hide check. This is typically done as part of another action unless specifically stated otherwise. Normally, attacking somebody reveals you - after you make an attack from hiding you are assumed to be being observed by, at a minimum, the target you attacked. In order to re-hide after this you must either return to satisfying the conditions - find some way to get the person you attacked to not be looking at you so you are not observed - or have some other exception that lets you ignore that condition.

The Sniping rule in the Hide skill provides one way to get that exception - it permits you to hide while observed, subject to its own costs/conditions on using it (the check penalty and the Move action cost to do it.) Anybody who is good at hiding can do this, potentially, but as you observed it will often limit you to a single attack, and it's not very compatible with Skirmish's requirement to move (finding a way to take multiple 5-foot adjustments, more your '5-foot' adjustments longer, or getting free/Swift action movement can all help mitigate this.)

If you want to full attack and remain hidden, you will usually need some variant of the Hide In Plain Sight special ability, which negates the requirement to be unobserved - somebody can be staring right at you and you can still become undetected to them as long as your Hide -20 can still beat their Spot. In Core, Shadow Dancer, Assassins, and high-level Rangers get some version of this.

[Anthrowhale]

I'd recommend getting a ring of blinking and adding the seeking enhancement to negate it's downside. Using that, you can strike as if invisible against most opponents.

You did not say it, but I assume you are using Swift Ambusher?

And you should either take greater multiattack or have a swift action means of movement.

[Menzath]

So from my understanding [edit] the second reading is correct, because of this line.


However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see sniping above) is a move action.
Phb pg.76

There does not seem to be rules to accelerate this, but woodland archer feat from races of the Wild would allow you to move after the attack.

The only way to make this work is if Oriental Adventures is allowed and the alternate use of tumble, with a DC 40 you can move 10ft during your 5ft step.

To make sniping viable all you would really need is either a way to get an extra move action or movement before the attack.
Tumbling requires an investment to always hit, but for a high dex build should be easy, especially if you take skill mastery.

[Crake]

Okay, so things to remember:

1. Hiding is not part of a move ACTION, its just part of MOVEMENT, meaning, it you meet the conditions, a 5ft step can be sufficient to hide.
2. The sniping action is just to STAY hidden, ie people never catch sight of where you are at all. You can shoot from hiding, then just move normally and hide again, without the -20 penalty, but your enemies will spot you during that moment in your round between your attack and movement, allowing any readied actions to trigger against you.
3. You remain hidden from round to round. If you were hidden at the end of your previous round, you dont have to hide again at the start of your next round, unless you’re triggering something that requires another check. In your case, if you’re trying to activate skirmish, which im guessing you are, then youll need another hide check while moving about.

So, if you want to trigger skirmish, your round would probably look something like this:
Move action - Move 10-20ft and hide as part of movement (no penalty)
Standard Action - Shoot with skirmish and sneak attack
End round as unhidden.

Now, if you can find some ways to get extra movement as a swift action, for example travel devotion, you could instead do:
Swift action - move 10-20ft and hide as part of the movement at no penalty
Standard action - Shoot with both sneak attack and skirmish
Move action - Here you can either choose to be momentarily visible, and move to hide once more at no penalty, or you can stay still, and take a -20 penalty to remain unseen throughout the entire round.

Might I also recommend, instead of using a hand crossbow, you spec into greater manyshot with a shortbow? Its like manyshot, but each arrow actually gets its own precision damage, so it lets you actually get more than one sneak attack/skirmish shot off each round, you can volley it with a standard action.

[Fuzzy Math]

Replies, in order:

@tyckspoon: The Dark Template gives me HiPS that, I think, allows me to use it as long as I'm not in direct sunlight. "Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect)." My plan of attack will be to stay behind my allies, using them as cover. Don't tell them that, of course! :smallbiggrin: I don't necessarily need to Full Attack, was just pondering.

@anthrowhale: We're starting at level one, so I can't quite afford those yet, I just like to plan out the full build because of optimism! Yes, I'm taking Swift Ambusher as soon as I can.. Multiattack I thought was only for creatures attacking with natural weapons?

@menzath: OA is out, unfortunately. The wording on the Moving Sniper section is somewhat confusing to me. If you understand it, can you explain how it's supposed to work?

@ Crake: So, it sounds like my second reading is the correct one, provided I don't have the means for extra movement? As for the hand crossbow, I'm going for the cool factor. :smallcool: I'm fine with hitting just the once, I don't need to be a chaingun. If the rest of my party falls before the enemy does, I'll do my best to cat and mouse the opponents until I can get away.

Here is the build I have in mind(the <text> are class abilities):
1 Rogue <SA 1d6, trapfinding>, Rapid Reload (RT PB Shot at 3rd)
2 Scout <Skirmish 1d6, trapfinding>
3 Scout <Battle Fortitude +1, Uncanny Dodge>, Hand Crossbow Focus
4 Scout <Fast Movement +10, Skirmish 1d6/+1 AC, Trackless Step>, DEX +1
5 Rogue <Evasion, Skirmish 2d6/+1 AC>
6 Rogue <SA 2d6, Spell Sense +1>, Swift Ambusher
7 Rogue <Disruptive Attack, Skirmish 2d6/+2 AC>
8 Rogue <SA 3d6>, DEX +2
9 Rogue <Spell Sense +2, Skirmish 3d6/+2 AC>, Crossbow Sniper
10 Rogue <SA 4d6>
11 Rogue <Improved Uncanny Dodge, Skirmish 3d6/+3 AC>
12 Rogue <SA 5d6, Spell Sense +3>, Telling Blow, DEX +3
13 Rogue <Spec. Ab. - Precise Shot, Skirmish 4d6/+3 AC>
14 Rogue <SA 6d6>
15 Rogue <Spell Sense +4, Skirmish 4d6/+4 AC>, Improved Precise Shot
16 Rogue <SA 7d6, Spec. Ab. - Darkstalker>, DEX +4
17 Rogue <Skirmish 5d6/+4 AC>
18 Rogue <SA 8d6, Spell Sense +5>, Rapid Shot
19 Rogue <Spec. Ab. - Woodland Archer, Skirmish 5d6/+5 AC>
20 Rogue <SA 9d6>, DEX +5

As you can see, I'm not exactly close to good at basic optimizing...

[Crake]

Replies, in order:

@tyckspoon: The Dark Template gives me HiPS that, I think, allows me to use it as long as I'm not in direct sunlight. "Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or a similar effect)." My plan of attack will be to stay behind my allies, using them as cover. Don't tell them that, of course! :smallbiggrin: I don't necessarily need to Full Attack, was just pondering.

@anthrowhale: We're starting at level one, so I can't quite afford those yet, I just like to plan out the full build because of optimism! Yes, I'm taking Swift Ambusher as soon as I can.. Multiattack I thought was only for creatures attacking with natural weapons?

@menzath: OA is out, unfortunately. The wording on the Moving Sniper section is somewhat confusing to me. If you understand it, can you explain how it's supposed to work?

@ Crake: So, it sounds like my second reading is the correct one, provided I don't have the means for extra movement? As for the hand crossbow, I'm going for the cool factor. :smallcool: I'm fine with hitting just the once, I don't need to be a chaingun. If the rest of my party falls before the enemy does, I'll do my best to cat and mouse the opponents until I can get away.

Here is the build I have in mind(the <text> are class abilities):
1 Rogue <SA 1d6, trapfinding>, Rapid Reload (RT PB Shot at 3rd)
2 Scout <Skirmish 1d6, trapfinding>
3 Scout <Battle Fortitude +1, Uncanny Dodge>, Hand Crossbow Focus
4 Scout <Fast Movement +10, Skirmish 1d6/+1 AC, Trackless Step>, DEX +1
5 Rogue <Evasion, Skirmish 2d6/+1 AC>
6 Rogue <SA 2d6, Spell Sense +1>, Swift Ambusher
7 Rogue <Disruptive Attack, Skirmish 2d6/+2 AC>
8 Rogue <SA 3d6>, DEX +2
9 Rogue <Spell Sense +2, Skirmish 3d6/+2 AC>, Crossbow Sniper
10 Rogue <SA 4d6>
11 Rogue <Improved Uncanny Dodge, Skirmish 3d6/+3 AC>
12 Rogue <SA 5d6, Spell Sense +3>, Telling Blow, DEX +3
13 Rogue <Spec. Ab. - Precise Shot, Skirmish 4d6/+3 AC>
14 Rogue <SA 6d6>
15 Rogue <Spell Sense +4, Skirmish 4d6/+4 AC>, Improved Precise Shot
16 Rogue <SA 7d6, Spec. Ab. - Darkstalker>, DEX +4
17 Rogue <Skirmish 5d6/+4 AC>
18 Rogue <SA 8d6, Spell Sense +5>, Rapid Shot
19 Rogue <Spec. Ab. - Woodland Archer, Skirmish 5d6/+5 AC>
20 Rogue <SA 9d6>, DEX +5

As you can see, I'm not exactly close to good at basic optimizing...

My main question would be why you’re getting rapid shot, because there’s practically no way for you to utilize it bar getting someone to cast greater invisibility on you. You either need to move for skirmish, which limits you to one attack, or you need to use your move action to stay hidden while sniping, which also limits you to a single attack, so theres practically no circumstance where its useful.

Maybe consider improved skirmish instead, which gives you +2d6/+2 skirmish if you move 20ft instead of 10ft

[Menzath]

Replies, in order:

.....
@menzath: OA is out, unfortunately. The wording on the Moving Sniper section is somewhat confusing to me. If you understand it, can you explain how it's supposed to work?
......

Woodland archer feat: moving sniper maneuver

Moving Sniper: To use this maneuver, you must succeed on a sniping attack (see the Hide skill description, page 76 of the Player's Handbook), both hitting your intended target and successfully hiding thereafter. If no one sees you, you can make a sniping attack again in the following round, taking a single move after your attack and before you hide (characters without this feat can only shoot and hide, not move as well). As long as you continue to hit the target and avoid detection from an enemy, you can make a sniping attack on the move each round.

So 1st round snipe as normal, hide afterwards.
If no one sees you during the -20 hide check and you hit the attack, on the following round you can now take a single move(per the move action) for free after your next snipe attack, but before the hide as move action after sniping. This can continue as long as you hit your target and remain hidden the entire time.

Other ways of getting movement as other actions include travel devotion feat(Complete Champion), tumble for farther 5ft step(OA), sparring dummy of the master to change 5ft step to 10ft(Arms & equipment), the spell Dimension hopper, greater(Complete mage), mounts(that's a whole mess though), any forced movement your Allies can cause to you(bull rushing, ph2 dimension spells, other teleports), psionic power Dimension Hop.

There are undoubtedly more ways to get movement or move actions that can be taken before you snipe, getting them onto a rogue may not be to hard if you have high Use Magic/psionic device skill ranks.

The forced movement outside of the swap spells would most likely negate your hiding, but can still be useful.

The cheapest might be power stones of Dimension hop and ranks in use psionic device if psionic items are for purchase in your game.
Sparring dummy is old 3.0 material and most likely not allowed.

Travel devotion is the best bet only 1/day for 1min changes your 5ft step into your full movement. But if you have turn attempts (UMD night sticks) you can spend 2 attempts to gain another use. Also the feat may be taken multiple time for more daily uses.

[Crake]

Travel devotion is the best bet only 1/day for 1min changes your 5ft step into your full movement.

This is not correct. It lets you move as a swift action, it does not affect your 5ft step. This is important, because normally if you 5ft step, you cannot perform any other movement in that round, but with travel devotion, you can use both it and a move action to move.

[Zarvistic]

With that many rogue level, if you go with any type of halfing as a race you can take the sub levels for it, giving you more ranged sneak damage and sniping mastery. That lets you hide as a free action between attacks at only -10 penalty. So you could 5ft step to hide initially, then full attack.

2 to 6 monk levels would be nice too btw. With invisible fist + sub level for skirmish damage and feats and possibly other acfs. If you take 5 monk levels, you can even drop scout and still be able to get swift ambusher.

[Anthrowhale]

Multiattack I thought was only for creatures attacking with natural weapons?

I misspoke---I meant Greater Manyshot (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot). However, it does not work with a crossbow.

A few notes:

In your build, I'm not sure Rapid Reload is worth it at level 1. Just use a shortbow instead?

The 4th level of scout provides a free bonus feat from a useful list. Also, you'll increase your final BAB by 1.

Telling Blow is a bit 'meh' as a feat since it triggers rarely. I'd suggest Improved Skirmish instead.

Darkstalker should be taken much earlier if you are planning to sneak at low levels.

You may want to take Craven for the extra damage.

Improved Precise Shot may not be that compelling when you have the Seeking ability. Precise Shot however may be helpful earlier when working in a party.

I'd strongly recommend taking the Lightbringer Rogue ACF so your sneak attack applies to everything.

You are critically missing a way to move as a free action and/or 10' step. It looks like Anklets of Translocation (2/day swift 10' 1400 gp) is the first purchasable option. Eventually, you could get multiple and swap after every battle. For an early level choice though it's hard to beat Travel Devotion, which would require a dip into cleric. A Cloistered Cleric[Travel,Elf, Knowledge] dip would provide other benefits---free point blank shot, knowledge devotion, and the ability to use clerical magic items.

[Menzath]

This is not correct. It lets you move as a swift action, it does not affect your 5ft step. This is important, because normally if you 5ft step, you cannot perform any other movement in that round, but with travel devotion, you can use both it and a move action to move.

From what I can tell it works that way because of this line


Special: You cannot take a 5-foot step in the same round that you use this feat to move as a swift action

I should also note that a 5ft is a free action, whereas travel devotion movement is a swift action.
So as far as action economy it is still fairly good.

[Crake]

From what I can tell it works that way because of this line


I should also note that a 5ft is a free action, whereas travel devotion movement is a swift action.
So as far as action economy it is still fairly good.

That line is just reiterating the rule that you cant 5ft step in the same round that you perform other kinds of movement. Even normally you cant move 30ft and then take a 5ft step afterwards, this is just reminding/confirming that the travel devotion movement follows the same restriction.

[Fuzzy Math]

@crake -
My main question would be why you’re getting rapid shot... Noted. I didn't read thoroughly in Rapid Shot's description.
Maybe consider improved skirmish instead... Will consider.

@menzath - Regarding a Woodland Archer alternative, would Shot on the Run be possible? From what I understand: I'd be able to move with hide for 10 ft of movement, attack with both SA and Skirmish assuming successful Hide, then move another 10 ft after attack while potentially hiding again without penalty?

@zarvistic - Halfling sub only applies to slings and thrown weapons, at least for the ranged sneak attack. Sniping Mastery doesn't seem to have that restriction explicity worded, but possibly implied. By changing from Whisper Gnome I'll be giving up SLA's, racial bonuses to Hide and MS, and extra movement speed; the leveling in this campaign is going to be a real slog (made worse by my +1 LA with no option of buy-off) as we're only going to be playing three times a year and unless the DM changes his MO in regards to XP, I expect to reach level 2 in 2024. :smallbiggrin: Although, Sniping Mastery is tempting... In regards to five levels of Monk, how would I be eligible for Swift Ambusher without the Skirmish class ability?

@anthrowhale - As I've said earlier, I'm sticking with the hand crossbow, mainly because of Crossbow Sniper which extends ranged SA/Skirmish out to 60 ft rather than 30 ft. Since we're starting at 1st level, I'm taking Rapid Reload in order to be able to reload as a free action until 3rd level when I'll be taking HCB Focus and retrain Rapid Reload to Point Blank Shot. The fourth level of Scout can be considered. I'd be willing to swap out Telling Blow to get Darkstalker earlier, but not before that. Craven is possible; I was on the fence regarding it and just couldn't figure out what I wanted to give up to get it. Precise Shot might be a good replacement point, freeing up a feat by removing IPS. The Lightbringer ACF only works with melee weapons, and as my goal is to not be close enough for flanking, I would only consider it as a "Break Glass" benefit when I can't get distance. As for the means of extra move actions and or move as free action, I'll have to address that later in the game. The purchasing of items would be preferred over the cleric dip.

[ShurikVch]

Concealed Ambush feat (Dragon #339) reduces after-sniping Hide penalty to -10; required Hide & MS 10, PBS and Precise Shot

[Chronos]

One note about the Dark template: As written, unlike every other source of Hide in Plain Sight, it ONLY deals with the not-being-observed requirement for Hide, and doesn't do anything about the need for concealment. Every other form of HiPS in the game (and there are a lot of them) either grants concealment, removes the requirement for concealment, or comes after some other ability that does one of those. This might have been an oversight: Ask your DM if they'll allow it.

[Crake]

One note about the Dark template: As written, unlike every other source of Hide in Plain Sight, it ONLY deals with the not-being-observed requirement for Hide, and doesn't do anything about the need for concealment. Every other form of HiPS in the game (and there are a lot of them) either grants concealment, removes the requirement for concealment, or comes after some other ability that does one of those. This might have been an oversight: Ask your DM if they'll allow it.

The OP stated at some point they planned on using their allies as cover, but now that I think about it im pretty sure you can't use soft cover to hide.

As an aside though, there is another printing of the dark template in the FR adventure Cormyr: Tearing of the weave. It's a later printing, and does include the lacking cover or concealment part of HiPS. Whether this version takes precedence or not would be up to you to argue with your DM, though I personally see it as an oversight rather than intentional.

That being said, I personally prefer the shadowdancer/assassin version anyway, much easier to find a shadow within 10ft, than avoid daylight. Pretty much only time the shadowdancer/assassin version doesn't qualify is if you're alone in the middle of an empty desert, or on really overcast days where the light is so dispersed that no shadows form. The latter can simply be solved by having a party member carry a bright enough light source that it casts a shadow over the overcast light.

Also, its easier to get your DM to approve shadowdancer than it is to get them to approve a +1LA template. Also also, being a dark creature would definitely draw negative attention due to your appearance.

[Anthrowhale]

Have you considered instead playing a Swift Hunter build? Damage is halved, but you no longer need worry about hiding or common enemies (like undead) who are immune to most of your damage.

[Crake]

Have you considered instead playing a Swift Hunter build? Damage is halved, but you no longer need worry about hiding or common enemies (like undead) who are immune to most of your damage.

I'm pretty sure that skirmish is considered precision damage, and thus undead are immune to it, is that not the case?

[Fuzzy Math]

@shurikvch - Unfortunately, Dragon Mags are considered "burn before reading" at the table I'm playing at.

@chronos - Alright, let's say I get the concealment. Combine that with my watered down HiPS and using the Shot on the Run feat; would I be able to first move at half speed (with hide), attack (become briefly visible), then continue my movement (with hide again)? It may come later in the game, but I can always go wilderness rogue to get camouflage (limited as it is) as a special ability.

@crake - DM has no issue with the template. As for the Cormyr printing, I believe that is setting specific(my DM refuses to blend settings), even if it did get printed later. The prestige class/es version is indeed superior, but can also be negated as it is (Su)pernatural rather than (Ex)traordinary. Negative attention because of appearance will be the least of my concerns; the personality will likely get in the way before appearance. :smallbiggrin:

@anthrowhale - I looked at Swift Hunter and it's not that great for being a Rogue. I suppose I could give up on the Rogue side of it and just go Scout/Ranger, but it's just not calling me as much. Still, thank you for the suggestion!

[Anthrowhale]

I'm pretty sure that skirmish is considered precision damage, and thus undead are immune to it, is that not the case?

The "trick" is picking the right favored enemies.

[Crake]

@crake - DM has no issue with the template.

oh, I figured, I was more speaking in general.


The prestige class/es version is indeed superior, but can also be negated as it is (Su)pernatural rather than (Ex)traordinary.

I dunno, vulnerability to AMF seems like a pretty easy trade off for vulnerability to natural sunlight, and the daylight spell, the latter two are far more common.

[Fuzzy Math]

oh, I figured, I was more speaking in general.



I dunno, vulnerability to AMF seems like a pretty easy trade off for vulnerability to natural sunlight, and the daylight spell, the latter two are far more common.

Wait, it's only against AMF? I thought it could be dispelled as well. Now I have more things to consider...

[Crake]

Wait, it's only against AMF? I thought it could be dispelled as well. Now I have more things to consider...

Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled, no, they also dont require concentration and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

[Anthrowhale]

@anthrowhale - I looked at Swift Hunter and it's not that great for being a Rogue.
You seem pretty set, but there are several options which make a ranger more rogue-like. For example, you can get disable device as a class skill and using skilled city dweller (https://web.archive.org/web/20200105204234/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) exchange wildernessy skills for tumble, knowledge[local], gather information, and sense motive. In addition, the retraining rules allow you to keep any 4 scout class skills not on the ranger list nearly topped up at in-class rates. Furthermore, you can exchange the spells for extra archery-relevant feats, and swap the AC for either causing flanking on hit (ironically) or a +FE bonus to hit.

I'm bringing this up for two reasons: (a) archery builds strongly benefit in practice from a high to-hit since you'll want to push deep into the iteratives and (b) common precision damage immunity could nerf your character into nigh-irrelevance.

Separately, Lightbringer Rogue works for ranged attacks as well. It's just limited to flanking (rather than flanking+flat-footing). For example, if some front liner in your party positions themselves so undead are between you and them then Lightbringer Rogue would activate even with the hand crossbow. Also note that Craven combos well with Lighbringer Rogue since the craven bonus is not halved.

[Fuzzy Math]

Separately, Lightbringer Rogue works for ranged attacks as well. It's just limited to flanking (rather than flanking+flat-footing). For example, if some front liner in your party positions themselves so undead are between you and them then Lightbringer Rogue would activate even with the hand crossbow. Also note that Craven combos well with Lighbringer Rogue since the craven bonus is not halved.

I'm struggling to find the explicit rules that say a ranged attack can be considered flanking. Even if I have an opponent that is being flanked by two allies, I wouldn't meet the requirements at range, at least by rules I can see.

[Crake]

I'm struggling to find the explicit rules that say a ranged attack can be considered flanking. Even if I have an opponent that is being flanked by two allies, I wouldn't meet the requirements at range, at least by rules I can see.

yeah, the flanking rules even explicitly say "When making a melee attack", flanking is melee only from what I understand.

[Anthrowhale]

yeah, the flanking rules even explicitly say "When making a melee attack", flanking is melee only from what I understand.

Agreed, wires crossed.

This discussion is making me wonder about a party consisting of a ranger archer with distracting attack (which _does_ create the flanked condition at range) and front liners with sneak attack. The ranger tries to tag as many opponents as possible and then the frontliners clobber the opponents in melee.

[holbita]

Let's be clear, you only need to flank your enemy to apply sneak attack... you don't need to use then a melee attack that benefits from flanking to do the sneak attack damage.

The relevant sentence is "or when the rogue flanks her target", meaning that you can be flanking your enemy and hit them with a crossbow, you will not benefit from the bonus from flanking but you will do sneak attack damage.

So if you have both sneak attack and distracting attack, and you full-attack your enemy from 30'. Any attack that hits will cause the next one to do sneak attack damage.

This is particularly curious as it's one of the only ways to flank by yourself.

That being said... check first with your DM as distracting attack tends to be rules differently depending on table.

[Crake]

Let's be clear, you only need to flank your enemy to apply sneak attack... you don't need to use then a melee attack that benefits from flanking to do the sneak attack damage.

The relevant sentence is "or when the rogue flanks her target", meaning that you can be flanking your enemy and hit them with a crossbow, you will not benefit from the bonus from flanking but you will do sneak attack damage.

So if you have both sneak attack and distracting attack, and you full-attack your enemy from 30'. Any attack that hits will cause the next one to do sneak attack damage.

This is particularly curious as it's one of the only ways to flank by yourself.

That being said... check first with your DM as distracting attack tends to be rules differently depending on table.

I dunno, that reading seems very dubious. Flanking very clearly specifies that it needs to be melee, and distracting attack also makes it seem like it only provides said benefits to your allies, not to yourself.

[Darg]

which also limits you to a single attack, so theres practically no circumstance where its useful.

This is wholly untrue. If you're hidden, they can't attack you or target you and you do xd6 bonus damage at full BAB. Can you do a lot more damage with a full attack? Yes. That doesn't mean staying hidden doesn't have it's benefits. It also works very well with either shot on the run or the manyshot feats. The first allows you to move with your attack action and the many shot feats allow you to basically full attack while staying hidden. Maximizing the 1 attack also has the benefit of minimizing ammunition costs. A lot of DMs handwave the opportunity cost of ammunition counts, but carrying 200 bolts is impractical. They might be light weight, but they take up a lot of space and enhancing them is expensive even if your DM does things properly and returns spent wealth. If your groups are not of the handwave to infinity ammunition variety, the quick-loading ability is invaluable as is simply ignoring your -10/-15 attacks as the chance they'll hit isn't worth the ammunition cost.

[Crake]

This is wholly untrue. If you're hidden, they can't attack you or target you and you do xd6 bonus damage at full BAB. Can you do a lot more damage with a full attack? Yes. That doesn't mean staying hidden doesn't have it's benefits. It also works very well with either shot on the run or the manyshot feats. The first allows you to move with your attack action and the many shot feats allow you to basically full attack while staying hidden. Maximizing the 1 attack also has the benefit of minimizing ammunition costs. A lot of DMs handwave the opportunity cost of ammunition counts, but carrying 200 bolts is impractical. They might be light weight, but they take up a lot of space and enhancing them is expensive even if your DM does things properly and returns spent wealth. If your groups are not of the handwave to infinity ammunition variety, the quick-loading ability is invaluable as is simply ignoring your -10/-15 attacks as the chance they'll hit isn't worth the ammunition cost.

I think you’re misunderstanding me, i was saying rapid shot isnt useful?

[Troacctid]

One option worth mentioning is a dip into warlock. If you take darkness as an invocation, you can use the concealment from it to hide in plain sight. And notably, you could also then take Blend into Shadows (DrU) to enable you to hide as a swift action—thus getting around the action requirement for sniping.


Every other form of HiPS in the game (and there are a lot of them) either grants concealment, removes the requirement for concealment, or comes after some other ability that does one of those. This might have been an oversight: Ask your DM if they'll allow it.
That doesn't sound correct. Are you sure? I feel like there are quite a few other HiPS abilities that still require you to have cover or concealment.

...I checked a few, and you seem to be right about all the ones in the SRD, but Lurking Terror, Scar Enforcer, Stalker of Kharash, and Wildrunner all grant HiPS without also granting Camouflage.


As an aside though, there is another printing of the dark template in the FR adventure Cormyr: Tearing of the weave. It's a later printing, and does include the lacking cover or concealment part of HiPS. Whether this version takes precedence or not would be up to you to argue with your DM, though I personally see it as an oversight rather than intentional.
Even though Cormyr was printed later, it's also an adventure module, so it generally shouldn't take precedence outside of the adventure itself.

A rule found in a rulebook overrules one found in a published adventure, unless the rule presented in the published adventure deals with something specific and limited to the adventure itself.

[holbita]

I dunno, that reading seems very dubious. Flanking very clearly specifies that it needs to be melee, and distracting attack also makes it seem like it only provides said benefits to your allies, not to yourself.

The thing is, flanking is a modifier, it applies when you do a melee attack, but it doesn't mean that you are not flanking while you are not attacking your enemy on melee.

If you and a colleague are flanking someone, you still flank even if you don't attack. And sneak attack does not require a melee attack, only that you are flanking the enemy. So it's only logical that you can apply sneak attack on a ranged attack to an enemy you are flanking... just you will not get the bonus to attack from flanking since you are not making a melee attack.

Regarding the ally thing, this is the definition of ally from PHB: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself.

So there is plenty of room to have distracting attack affect you.

[Crake]

The thing is, flanking is a modifier, it applies when you do a melee attack, but it doesn't mean that you are not flanking while you are not attacking your enemy on melee.

If you and a colleague are flanking someone, you still flank even if you don't attack. And sneak attack does not require a melee attack, only that you are flanking the enemy. So it's only logical that you can apply sneak attack on a ranged attack to an enemy you are flanking... just you will not get the bonus to attack from flanking since you are not making a melee attack.

Regarding the ally thing, this is the definition of ally from PHB: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself.

So there is plenty of room to have distracting attack affect you.

Right, but you can flank and then shoot in melee, and still not get sneak attack, because when resolving the attack, you are not flanking with regards to the attack. It would work the same as being in melee with a blade bow or a crossbow with a bayonet.

[Darg]

I think you’re misunderstanding me, i was saying rapid shot isnt useful?

Well I feel dumb now. Well, rapid shot can be useful when they can't hide or are at a larger distance than they can benefit from their precision damage. Darkstalker isn't that useful for a mobile ranged stealth attacker in my opinion. Darkstalker is just too easily mimicked when necessary to be worth a feat for a ranged attacker. Personally I'd skip darkstalker and telling blow to grab manyshot and greater manyshot.


One option worth mentioning is a dip into warlock. If you take darkness as an invocation, you can use the concealment from it to hide in plain sight. And notably, you could also then take Blend into Shadows (DrU) to enable you to hide as a swift action—thus getting around the action requirement for sniping.

You still need to break their observation to attempt the hide check. Which means something like a bluff check or the Blend into shadows feat.

[holbita]

Right, but you can flank and then shoot in melee, and still not get sneak attack, because when resolving the attack, you are not flanking with regards to the attack. It would work the same as being in melee with a blade bow or a crossbow with a bayonet.

Of course, but that wouldn't apply to distracting attack, or anyone with improved unarmed strike or any other way to threaten while wielding a ranged weapon. In any of those cases you can do the ranged sneak attack.

[Darg]

Of course, but that wouldn't apply to distracting attack, or anyone with improved unarmed strike or any other way to threaten while wielding a ranged weapon. In any of those cases you can do the ranged sneak attack.


Benefit: Beginning at 4th level, whenever you hit an enemy with a weapon attack (whether melee or ranged), that enemy is considered flanked by you for the purpose of adjudicating your allies' attacks. For example, if your rogue ally attacked that enemy, not only would she gain a +2 bonus on her melee attack roll but she could also add her sneak attack damage to a successful melee attack.

Sorry, but it's allies only. Not yourself


Flanking

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

You only get the flanking bonus when making a melee attack

[Anthrowhale]

You only get the flanking bonus when making a melee attack
This seems generally correct. The assassination enhancement (https://web.archive.org/web/20120827065236/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a) seems to be valid on a ranged weapon and enable sneak attack vs. a flanked opponent.

[holbita]

Sorry, but it's allies only. Not yourself

You only get the flanking bonus when making a melee attack

As mentioned before, the glossary on PHB states "Ally: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself", so if you want to argue that wether distracting attack affects you depends on table I have no problem with it, but if we follow the definition that the Player's Handbook gives for ally then... in most cases you can use distracting attack to flank by yourself.

Now, about the flank bonus?... Who cares about it? Sneak attack is very clear. If you are flanking your target you deal sneak attack damage. So if you are flanking an enemy that you attack it doesn't matter wether your attack is melee or ranged, you do sneak attack damage.

It just so happen that if you do a melee attack you will benefit from the bonus from flanking, but sneak attack itself does not check for flanking bonus on the attack, just flanking.

Basically, a rogue with a dagger and a light crossbow on the opposite side of an ally is flanking an enemy. No matter what weapon it uses to attack it will still be flanking, so it will do sneak attack damage.

[Darg]

As mentioned before, the glossary on PHB states "Ally: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself", so if you want to argue that wether distracting attack affects you depends on table I have no problem with it, but if we follow the definition that the Player's Handbook gives for ally then... in most cases you can use distracting attack to flank by yourself.

Now, about the flank bonus?... Who cares about it? Sneak attack is very clear. If you are flanking your target you deal sneak attack damage. So if you are flanking an enemy that you attack it doesn't matter wether your attack is melee or ranged, you do sneak attack damage.

It just so happen that if you do a melee attack you will benefit from the bonus from flanking, but sneak attack itself does not check for flanking bonus on the attack, just flanking.

Basically, a rogue with a dagger and a light crossbow on the opposite side of an ally is flanking an enemy. No matter what weapon it uses to attack it will still be flanking, so it will do sneak attack damage.

I was meaning (it made more sense in my head) that you still need to satisfy the other half of the rule: you need to get up close and personal. Yes, you are considered to be on the other side of the creature; you still need to be threatening the creature yourself to benefit. Flanking requires two creatures after all.

I wholly disagree that one can make a ranged attack and benefit from flanking. The Flanking rule IS making a melee attack and receiving a bonus, quite literally. Sneak attack mentions "the rogue's attack." As in it's in the process of attacking for the context of what comes next. The rogue is flanking the target when they make a melee attack while the opponent is threatened by a creature friendly to you on the opposite side. Don't confuse the rule for the general definition of flanking. Flanking IS a combat modifier. You can't divorce the modifier from the term.

[Troacctid]

You still need to break their observation to attempt the hide check. Which means something like a bluff check or the Blend into shadows feat.
Not if you can hide in plain sight.

[Crake]

As mentioned before, the glossary on PHB states "Ally: A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to "allies" include yourself", so if you want to argue that wether distracting attack affects you depends on table I have no problem with it, but if we follow the definition that the Player's Handbook gives for ally then... in most cases you can use distracting attack to flank by yourself.

The "In most cases" line references the rules text in question, no each individual instance. Either the distracting shot rules allow you to flank with yourself, or they do not, it's not a case of "in most circumstances when using distracting shot you can flank with yourself, but sometimes you can't".

However, due to the nature of flanking requiring at least one other person, and just the way that the rule is written, I would be inclined to place distracting shot in the "not most cases" category, in that, it references other allies, not yourself.