Cheater of Mystra

[YellowJohn]

The Cheater of Mystra is a relatively well known build combining, among other things, the Dweomerkeeper prestige class from Complete Divine Web enhancement Incantatrix with the Initiate of Mystra feat which allows casting in an antimagic field.

The capstone of the Dweomerkeeper is:

Cloak of Mysteries (Su): At 10th level, a dweomerkeeper is wrapped in a mantle of ever-flowing magic, and all metamagic feats that she currently knows or learns in the future become easier to use. The spell level increase for applying a metamagic feat to any spell drops by 1

Note that (Su) there...
Normally it's not important because you can't cast spells in situations where your Su abilities don't work, but Initiate of Mystra bypasses that.
So, when I raise my antimagic field, what happens when I try to cast the Empowered Flame Strike (or whatever) I prepared that morning?

[loky1109]

You cast it as you prepared it.
Only trouble could be preparing spells in AMF.

[Quertus]

Interesting question. When you lose access to prerequisites, you lose access to abilities requiring those prerequisites. So, when you lose access to this SU ability… what do you lose? The ability to prepare spells, the ability to cast them? Or even the ability to hold them in your mind?

AFB, but iirc, when you suffer temporary level loss, you lose one of your highest level Spell slots, and your effective caster level is reduced by 1, for each level lost. AFAIK, if you were a Fighter 20 / Wizard 20, and lost 30 levels, you’d have an effective caster level of -10, and have lost your 30 highest level spell slots.

But let’s ignore that silliness, and just stick with a level 20 Wizard with 10 negative levels. Odds are real good they’ve lost all their 9th level slots, and I’m fairly confident they at least have 7th level slots available… that they can cast at caster level 10… despite that not normally being possible. Hmmm… I think I’ve found a glitch for cheap Spell casting services. :smallamused::smallcool:

Anyway, did they keep their memorized and ability to cast 7th level spells despite losing the perquisite of 13th caster level? Can they memorize replacements? If the negative levels get removed, do they get their memorized 9th level spells back, or just the now-empty slots?

And does this actually tie into the logic of the question asked in a consistent way?

[Chronos]

If you're starting from a prepared-caster chassis, then you use metamagic when you prepare your spells, and so that's when you need to have the dweomerkeeper ability available. If you started with a sorcerer instead, then you'd use metamagic while casting, and so you'd need to not be in an AMF.

[Anthrowhale]

There is a DM-dependent caveat. AMF has special text regarding part of a body poking out not having magic suppressed. If the relevant parts of your body poke out (because you made yourself big enough) of the AMF you may be able to use cloak of mysteries actively while the AMF is ongoing. What's undefined is precisely what the relevant parts are. Do you need a foot to use Cloak of Mysteries? A head? a hand? The whole body?

[Promethean]

Interesting question. When you lose access to prerequisites, you lose access to abilities requiring those prerequisites.

Only if said materials are specifically from 2 of the "complete" series books. The priority rules make it clear any supplement that establishes rules that contradict core only applies those rules to material in that supplement.

If what you said was true, several core prestige classes(like dragon disciple) would become non-functional.

[Crichton]

Only if said materials are specifically from 2 of the "complete" series books. The priority rules make it clear any supplement that establishes rules that contradict core only applies those rules to material in that supplement.

If what you said was true, several core prestige classes(like dragon disciple) would become non-functional.



An old argument that has been hashed and rehashed. I tend to agree, but many don't. No need to open that can of worms here, though, because you don't 'lose access' to your (Su) ability when inside an AMF. It's 'suppressed' as per the wording of AMF. Specifically, the 'effect' is suppressed, not the ability itself. You still have the prerequisite, and you can still 'access' it (whatever that actually means). Its effect is just 'nullified'. That's the wording used in AMF. Magical effects (including Su) are 'suppressed' and/or 'temporarily nullified' Note that in AMF it never says a normal caster can't cast a spell within the AMF, merely that the spell's effect is suppressed. You can cast all the spells you want, and presumably that would even expend the spell slots. It's just that no effect would happen.


In this specific case, it's as loky1109 and Chronos said above - you use the metamagic at the time of preparation, so if you can cast it from your prepared slot, it works precisely as you prepared it to.

[Zanos]

Only if said materials are specifically from 2 of the "complete" series books. The priority rules make it clear any supplement that establishes rules that contradict core only applies those rules to material in that supplement.

If what you said was true, several core prestige classes(like dragon disciple) would become non-functional.
This is only debatable for prestige classes. Feats are clear that their effects are lost when you lose the prerequisites.

[Crichton]

This is only debatable for prestige classes. Feats are clear that their effects are lost when you lose the prerequisites.



While that's true, and clearly stated in the rules, once again, it's not relevant here. You haven't lost the metamagic feats at all, you still have whatever metamagic feats you have chosen, and you haven't actually lost the (Su) ability that lets you use them more cheaply. You still have that ability, its effect (to be able to prepare metamagic spells at a discount) is merely suppressed inside the AMF. And since metamagic is applied (and thus so are its costs) at the time of preparation, in this case the caster can use their already prepared metamagic-reduced spells without any issue, inside the AMF.

[Zanos]

While that's true, and clearly stated in the rules, once again, it's not relevant here. You haven't lost the metamagic feats at all, you still have whatever metamagic feats you have chosen, and you haven't actually lost the (Su) ability that lets you use them more cheaply. You still have that ability, its effect (to be able to prepare metamagic spells at a discount) is merely suppressed inside the AMF. And since metamagic is applied (and thus so are its costs) at the time of preparation, in this case the caster can use their already prepared metamagic-reduced spells without any issue, inside the AMF.
Yes, I didn't disagree with that.

[YellowJohn]

Thank you everyone for your input. I had assumed this


In this specific case, it's as loky1109 and Chronos said above - you use the metamagic at the time of preparation, so if you can cast it from your prepared slot, it works precisely as you prepared it to.

was how it would work, but wanted to run it by more experienced minds.