OOTS #1276 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Domino Quartz]

So it was Eugene.

[Tass]

So it was Eugene.

I was quite convinced it was just crazy speculation.

[enq]

Told you not to disagree with me! (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?653583-OOTS-1274-The-Discussion-Thread&p=25692178#post25692178)

I also believed that Bloodfeast could in fact see Jeugene. And anything else that is no longer up for debate given this most recent development.

[Precure]

It was way too obvious it was him.

[Fyraltari]

And there we go.

[Precure]

As I said before, it was very obvious that thing claiming to be Julia was none other than Eugene this whole time.


New strip convinced me more than ever it's neither Julia nor IFCC but Eugene himself since strip 1192. Looking back to Julia's "panic attacks" since her first appearance in ghost form:

Panel 6: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1192.html) She panics when Roy asked her to teach the same spell to V, and makes up a excuse that her spell is somehow linked to Blood Oath, which seems strange in hindsight considering she claimed to create it as part of her academic studies.

Panel 5: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html) She was totally nonchalant about the possibility that earth might be destroyed. When Roy confused by that, she panics and then exclaims an unusual trust on Roy's capabilities to not let that happen, which, again, seems strange.

Panel 10: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html) She overreacts to Roy when he mentioned about the possibility of her direct involvement, and overcorrects him that she's only interested in giving her advice.

Panel 7: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1272.html) She panics when Roy reveals that he tricked her about how he knows that she's here.

Panel 12: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1273.html) She panicked when Roy interrogated her about the audition, implying she had no idea what happened there and whether she supposed to remember it or not.

I think it's probably Eugene himself and he's pretending to be his daughter. Why? Because at his last visit, Roy rebuked him and was unwilling to talk to him due to Eugene's past misdeeds (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1048.html). Roy also wished his sword to "pawn these visits to Julia", and Eugene is doing just that, using "Julia" to talk his son.

[LtPowers]

Well now I feel dumb. Though I'm really disappointed this all hasn't been character growth for Julia.

And now I have to go back and read all the "obvious" clues I missed.

Speaking of which:



It was way too obvious it was him.

Define "obvious" please.


Powers &8^]

[Fyraltari]

Wait, does this mean Bloodfeast is stuck outside?

[WindStruck]

Huzzah for the people with "epileptic tree" theories!

[enq]

Anyone else bothered by the direction of the speech bubble in panel five? I know I know, it can't be unseen now...

[Hardcore]

We can correctly predict it was Eugene based on a few verbal clues, but MitD is still a mystery?

[Precure]

Define "obvious" please.

Other than the things I listed before, he literally said "I'm stuck up here" which is very obviously referring to Eugene.

[dancrilis]

As I said before, it was very obvious that thing claiming to be Julia was none other than Eugene this whole time.
Looks like.


Well now I feel dumb. Though I'm really disappointed this all hasn't been character growth for Julia.


Well Eugene is likely more story relevant then Julia.

Looks to me that Eugene simply has issues dealing with Roy as himself.

[AlurenDarkfire]

Huh, so it WAS Eugene

[LtPowers]

Other than the things I listed before, he literally said "I'm stuck up here" which is very obviously referring to Eugene.

Yes, non of which Roy figured out either. And Roy's smarter than I am.


Powers &8^]

[enq]

We can correctly predict it was Eugene based on a few verbal clues, but MitD is still a mystery?

Hindsight is 20/20? No doubt when MitD's creature type is revealed, someone will say it's been obvious for a long time.


Yes, non of which Roy figured out either. And Roy's smarter than I am.

Unlike us, Roy doesn't get two weeks of free time to analyze everything between strips :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Well now I feel dumb. Though I'm really disappointed this all hasn't been character growth for Julia.
The alleged character "growth" would have been character shrinking anyway.

[Lord Torath]

Wait, does this mean Bloodfeast is stuck outside?Bloodfeast was stuck outside before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1253.html).

Thanks, Rich!

I was certain it was Julia. Well played, Giant!

[Fyraltari]

We can correctly predict it was Eugene based on a few verbal clues, but MitD is still a mystery?

Eugene is a known quantity. If the story had established a few species the MitD could belong to, we'd probably have guessed by now.

[Ruck]

Looks to me that Eugene simply has issues dealing with Roy as himself.

Ha, yeah, I was gonna say I think Roy has issues dealing with Eugene as Eugene, but also that those issues are Eugene's fault anyway.


We can correctly predict it was Eugene based on a few verbal clues, but MitD is still a mystery?

Well, the two cases don't really parallel.


Hindsight is 20/20? No doubt when MitD's creature type is revealed, someone will say it's been obvious for a long time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKnG06-oYcg

[hamishspence]

Looks like a lot of you guys were right - I was really hoping it wouldn't be Eugene.

[ZhonLord]

In hindsight, a previous page-ending quip suddenly has a new meaning:

"oh there you are dad, I didn't see you hiding behind my sister's ENTIRE PERSONALITY like that."

[hroþila]

I'm going to count this as a personal win even though I was more on the Sabine/vessel bandwagon so this is no personal win at all

[drazen]

Yes, non of which Roy figured out either. And Roy's smarter than I am.


Powers &8^]

The excuse Rich gave for him not seeing through Durkula's con job was emotional trauma from feeling at fault for the death of his best friend.

This one, I have no idea why he isn't picking up on it. It's five or ten clues that aren't in character.

The long skirt must be either how Eugene thinks of Julia and/or how she presents herself at home. But maybe Roy just thinks Durkon "straightened her out" with the "proper behavior for a young lady" chat in Cliffport. That one was probably a bigger clue for me than the dialogue (other than the "stuck up here" slip and "Julia" claiming to care and feel useless when her entire personality is cynical, sarcastic indifference), but maybe less of one for Roy.

[hagnat]

Anyone else bothered by the direction of the speech bubble in panel five? I know I know, it can't be unseen now...

i was reading the pitchforks and firesticks

[Peelee]

Looks like a lot of you guys were right - I was really hoping it wouldn't be Eugene.

Seconded. It was heavily pointing towards Eugene, but I'd rather have Julia in the story more than keep coming back to Eugene.

[Tubercular Ox]

We can correctly predict it was Eugene based on a few verbal clues, but MitD is still a mystery?

To be fair, we argued about Eugene until the very end, too, and claiming something was obvious in foresight is easier when you can hand people hindsight to see it with.

And tangent, I think this means Eugene and Roy's relationship is going to get a little growth. There's still an option here for Eugene to learn to respect his son without Roy finding out, but an actual reconciliation is on the table.

[Peelee]

To be fair, we argued about Eugene until the very end, too, and claiming something was obvious in foresight is easier when you can hand people hindsight to see it with.

And tangent, I think this means Eugene and Roy's relationship is going to get a little growth. There's still an option here for Eugene to learn to respect his son without Roy finding out, but an actual reconciliation is on the table.

Despite that Eugene may not be able to grow at all, being dead, and everything he had done so far had just shown him to be a worse and worse person? I certainly envy your optimism.

[Reboot]

Huzzah for the people with "epileptic tree" theories!

Well, there's your next Geekery thread title ;)

[Keltest]

Despite that Eugene may not be able to grow at all, being dead, and everything he had done so far had just shown him to be a worse and worse person? I certainly envy your optimism.

Depending on how you read a few things, Eugene may have genuinely apologized to Roy. Certainly he had a couple of unguarded moments there where his acting slipped.

[hroþila]

This one, I have no idea why he isn't picking up on it. It's five or ten clues that aren't in character.
Roy had a few minutes to pick up inconsistencies on the fly during an oral conversation, on his own. We had dozens of people going over the same few written lines over and over again for like a month, and we still couldn't reach a consensus.

I don't think it's very puzzling.

[The MunchKING]

The fact that he acts as if others can see him, and now that I think about it, the fact that "Julia" appeared when other creatures were present at all indicates it's NOT actually Eugene manifesting thought the Blood Oath, but an ILLUSION spell!!

[Precure]

Depending on how you read a few things, Eugene may have genuinely apologized to Roy. Certainly he had a couple of unguarded moments there where his acting slipped.

Also, the first thing he said was "sorry"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1191.html

[pendell]

Ha! So it was Eugene all along! Kudos to all of you who called it!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gwynfrid]

Well, I didn’t see that one coming. Very nice, Giant!

This kind of thing is also why I don’t read this thread very often. I find it more enjoyable to be surprised by the story’s twists. Having read the insights and speculation by clever posters would kind of spoil it.

[Fyraltari]

Despite that Eugene may not be able to grow at all, being dead
Don't think that's how that works:


Is Eugene in Celestia yet?

[Wintermoot]

Next comic, Eugene walks around a corner, smirks, cackles and turns into Sabine. "There, that will give the little lizard something to think about!"

Next next comic, Sabine teleports out, appears at a desolated goblin village, walks over to a grave, goes down on one knee and says "Father, I shall avenge you!" and turns into Redcloak's niece.

[ZhonLord]

Gotta say I'm a little disappointed. I was looking forward to more development of Julia's character, whether she be a puppet of Sabine or just trying really hard to help out. Instead the last time we've truly seen her is her brief stint in Cliffport.

Though I will say this was definitely clever on Eugene's part. He even pointed out negative things about himself, like the conversation they had about how he didn't teach Roy to obey authority figures without question. That's some serious dedication to disguise.

[hroþila]

Next comic, Eugene walks around a corner, smirks, cackles and turns into Sabine. "There, that will give the little lizard something to think about!"

Next next comic, Sabine teleports out, appears at a desolated goblin village, walks over to a grave, goes down on one knee and says "Father, I shall avenge you!" and turns into Redcloak's niece.
And then they snap out of Girard's illusion

[Wowlock]

Ah Eugene, literally the fate of the universe on the line with a god eating monster and a sarcastically evil Lich both having terrible plans. And he only cares about HIS future...which won't exist.

[Ruck]

Roy had a few minutes to pick up inconsistencies on the fly during an oral conversation, on his own. We had dozens of people going over the same few written lines over and over again for like a month, and we still couldn't reach a consensus.

I don't think it's very puzzling.

Ah, you beat me to it. Something I said in a previous thread is that it's also just not the type of thing that's going to occur to someone unless they already had the idea in their head. Roy already talked to Julia once, so there isn't anything suspicious about her showing up, and since there's no reason to suspect Eugene impersonating her, he probably isn't looking for clues to that end. (I'm not even sure anyone here thought of the idea the first time they read the strips-- maybe they did, but at least for me, it didn't occur to me until other posters suggested it and then I went back and re-read the strips with that in mind.)


Don't think that's how that works:

Will you accept an amendment to "Despite that Eugene may not be able to grow at all, being Eugene"?

[ZhonLord]

Ah Eugene, literally the fate of the universe on the line with a god eating monster and a sarcastically evil Lich both having terrible plans. And he only cares about HIS future...which won't exist.

Don't be so sure of that. Eugene now knows WHY the gods are ready to annihilate everything, and got details about the Snarl and the Gates and TDO that he previously had no access to. To quote Loki, that's the kind of thing you change plans for.

[Ruck]

Next comic, Eugene walks around a corner, smirks, cackles and turns into Sabine. "There, that will give the little lizard something to think about!"

Next next comic, Sabine teleports out, appears at a desolated goblin village, walks over to a grave, goes down on one knee and says "Father, I shall avenge you!" and turns into Redcloak's niece.


And then they snap out of Girard's illusion

And then we zoom in on Mr. Scruffy, and it turns out the first three panels of this book were foreshadowing, as we get the St. Elsewhere ending, where this whole story was in the "real world" Mr. Scruffy's imagination while he was playing with a ball of string.

[Wintermoot]

Roy already talked to Julia once

I'm pretty sure that the Julia who has been appearing to Roy via "her school project" has ALWAYS been Eugene. But I'm happy to be proved wrong.

[Precure]

I'm pretty sure that the Julia who has been appearing to Roy via "her school project" has ALWAYS been Eugene. But I'm happy to be proved wrong.

It was always her, there is no school project.

[KorvinStarmast]

Unlike us, Roy doesn't get two weeks of free time to analyze everything between strips :smallbiggrin: Indeed. He's got a party to lead.

The alleged character "growth" would have been character shrinking anyway. ?? Can you elaborate on Julia's character shrinking if she's engaging with Roy about something world sized in importance (which well exceeds the scope of her current studies)? Not seeing shrinkage.

In hindsight, a previous page-ending quip suddenly has a new meaning:
"oh there you are dad, I didn't see you hiding behind my sister's ENTIRE PERSONALITY like that." Props to Rich for that. :smallsmile:

The fact that he acts as if others can see him, and now that I think about it, the fact that "Julia" appeared when other creatures were present at all indicates it's NOT actually Eugene manifesting thought the Blood Oath, but an ILLUSION spell!! Likely, given Eugene's specialty.

And then they snap out of Girard's illusion *Snicker*

To quote Loki, that's the kind of thing you change plans for. Point to Loki.
I'm pretty sure that the Julia who has been appearing to Roy via "her school project" has ALWAYS been Eugene. But I'm happy to be proved wrong. Makes sense.

[Tubercular Ox]

Despite that Eugene may not be able to grow at all, being dead, and everything he had done so far had just shown him to be a worse and worse person? I certainly envy your optimism.

Promising to check in every few hours and offering strategic and tactical advice on defeating Xykon while disguised to circumvent the animosity he and his son share is significantly different than sniping at his son's inability and more or less prodding him forward without materially providing any assistance. An English teacher would call this character growth.

Also, I still respect Kish's comment (was it Kish?) about it being unfortunate that so many stories give the hero what they just gave up wanting, so reconciliation is on the table, but there is still room for Eugene to learn to respect Roy from afar, which would give the audience the benefit of knowing it happened without putting Roy in the spot of having to figure out what to do with something he doesn't want anymore.

But if the goal is stasis, that would be best preserved by not bringing Eugene back at all. Since that's obviously not happening, I suppose he could be an elaborate exposition lackey. Suggesting putting Sunny in danger does give him a view of the world most of the rest of the party lacks, combined with an ability to talk tactics with Roy that Belkar doesn't have.


It was always her, there is no school project.

At the time, I felt like, "It's just like Sending, only much better and lower level," was a lousy choice on Rich's part. The lower level really did me in. How honors does your honors program have to be to support apprentices inventing game-changing spells? I'm just going to pretend it's foreshadowing from now on.

[Lord Torath]

And now I can't unsee all the clues I missed. Like Juila being unfazed when Roy tells her if he fails this time there's no "best of five" since the gods will destroy the world. :smallsigh:

Which is just another way of saying "Well done, Giant!" :smallamused:

[Peelee]

Promising to check in every few hours and offering strategic and tactical advice on defeating Xykon while disguised to circumvent the animosity he and his son share is significantly different than sniping at his son's inability and more or less prodding him forward without materially providing any assistance. An English teacher would call this character growth.

Also, I still respect Kish's comment (was it Kish?) about it being unfortunate that so many stories give the hero what they just gave up wanting, so reconciliation is on the table, but there is still room for Eugene to learn to respect Roy from afar, which would give the audience the benefit of knowing it happened without putting Roy in the spot of having to figure out what to do with something he doesn't want anymore.

But if the goal is stasis, that would be best preserved by not bringing Eugene back at all. Since that's obviously not happening, I suppose he could be an elaborate exposition lackey. Suggesting putting Sunny in danger does give him a view of the world most of the rest of the party lacks, combined with an ability to talk tactics with Roy that Belkar doesn't have.

Dude. He openly says he doesn't trust Roy and thinks he knows better. Exactly as he said and behaved from the very beginning. Additionally, promising to check in every few hours despite Roy saying not to.

I dont know what growth you're seeing. Hes exactly the same as he's always been. The only difference here is he's trying to hide it behind another person.

[Precure]

At the time, I felt like, "It's just like Sending, only much better and lower level," was a lousy choice on Rich's part. The lower level really did me in. How honors does your honors program have to be to support apprentices inventing game-changing spells? I'm just going to pretend it's foreshadowing from now on.

There was hints then too, albeit not obvious.

[Shining Wrath]

All those who voted for "That's not Julia, that's dad!", stretch carefully before patting your back, rotator cuff injuries are painful.

Next strip is when Serini tells Roy it's not behind any door.

[Ruck]

I'm pretty sure that the Julia who has been appearing to Roy via "her school project" has ALWAYS been Eugene. But I'm happy to be proved wrong.

I went back and read the threads again, and the consensus seemed to be that it was Julia in the first visit. In any case, I definitely think Julia acted quite differently in that visit than "Julia" is acting now, so I think it's likely the first visit was really her.

[Wintermoot]

I went back and read the threads again, and the consensus seemed to be that it was Julia in the first visit. In any case, I definitely think Julia acted quite differently in that visit than "Julia" is acting now, so I think it's likely the first visit was really her.

Ok. Well. *shrug* I don't think you are correct. Guess we'll eventually find out.

[Quinton250]

And then we zoom in on Mr. Scruffy, and it turns out the first three panels of this book were foreshadowing, as we get the St. Elsewhere ending, where this whole story was in the "real world" Mr. Scruffy's imagination while he was playing with a ball of string.

Then Sabine wakes up in her bed, walks into the bathroom and finds Nale in the Shower. Turns out the last season book was just a dream.

[Resileaf]

I went back and read the threads again, and the consensus seemed to be that it was Julia in the first visit. In any case, I definitely think Julia acted quite differently in that visit than "Julia" is acting now, so I think it's likely the first visit was really her.

Nah, Eugene's line in the third to last panel of this strip confirms that it was him talking to Roy last time too. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html) There never was a Julia talking to Roy.

[Tzardok]

Gotta say I'm a little disappointed. I was looking forward to more development of Julia's character, whether she be a puppet of Sabine or just trying really hard to help out. Instead the last time we've truly seen her is her brief stint in Cliffport.

I agree. This is kind of a bummer.


I went back and read the threads again, and the consensus seemed to be that it was Julia in the first visit. In any case, I definitely think Julia acted quite differently in that visit than "Julia" is acting now, so I think it's likely the first visit was really her.

Doesn't that sound a little risky? The next time real Julia calls and doesn't know about their talk, the gig is up.

[KorvinStarmast]

Next strip is when Serini tells Roy it's not behind any door. Probably.

Then Sabine wakes up in her bed, walks into the bathroom and finds Nale in the Shower. Turns out the last season book was just a dream. Needlessly complicated ... wait, Nale is involved. :smalleek:

Regarding the last panel: Belkara is a Ranger. Bloodfeast is his animal buddy. Does a 3.x ranger have a speak with animals spell/ability? (Yeah, I know, when Belkar acts like a Ranger we are all doomed...) Can Bloodfeast communicate what he saw to Belkar?

[Peelee]

Nah, Eugene's line in the third to last panel of this strip confirms that it was him talking to Roy last time too. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html) There never was a Julia talking to Roy.

"confirms" is a bit strong, but other than that i agree.

[Gift Jeraff]

I always figured there was something off about "I made the Sending spell infinitely better and lower level at the same time."

[Wintermoot]

Probably.
Needlessly complicated ... wait, Nale is involved. :smalleek:

Regarding the last panel: Belkara is a Ranger. Bloodfeast is his animal buddy. Does a 3.x ranger have a speak with animals spell/ability? (Yeah, I know, when Belkar acts like a Ranger we are all doomed...) Can Bloodfeast communicate what he saw to Belkar?

Speak with animals is a 1st level Ranger spell.

It has been established that Belkar's wisdom is dumped down so far he doesn't get his Ranger spells.

[Tubercular Ox]

The only difference here is he's trying to hide it behind another person.

Yes, and that's enough. Trying to hide it behind another person is character growth for Eugene. I'm not trying to measure whether he's becoming a good person here, I'm just plotting his progress through the story. And "progress" I now see is a bad word, too, but I haven't a better for you right now.


I went back and read the threads again, and the consensus seemed to be that it was Julia in the first visit. In any case, I definitely think Julia acted quite differently in that visit than "Julia" is acting now, so I think it's likely the first visit was really her.

So this is an opinion, but I don't think an apprentice should be inventing spells that are just like sending, only much better and lower level. Riding the blood oath is a cool idea, but inventing a spell that rides a blood oath to do a sending, only much better and lower level, is totally worth an A for a 17 year old, there was no need for her to complain that she was going to fix it before turning it in. It didn't need fixing, it was an amazing spell.

But even if you agree with that opinion, which you don't have to, that's no reason to say for certain it's Eugene in that scene, I'm just throwing it on the scales.

[Precure]

I went back and read the threads again, and the consensus seemed to be that it was Julia in the first visit. In any case, I definitely think Julia acted quite differently in that visit than "Julia" is acting now, so I think it's likely the first visit was really her.

No, it was him. Eugene even referred to what he said then with "it's my future on the line" line.

9th panel: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html

[locksmith of lo]

i guessed that it was eugene, but i am getting the feeling that some people are saying that it was eugene all along. that it was never julia. have i missed something? has every conversation with "julia" really been only eugene? i was thinking that it was just this one time. *shrugs* :smallconfused:

[Peelee]

Yes, and that's enough.

I disagree that putting on a mask to do everything you would have done without the mask is character growth.

Hell, its not even the first time he disguised himself to trick his son (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html).

[Wintermoot]

You know, I look back at the hundreds of posts and thousands of words dedicated to insisting that Julia was really Julia all along, and I expected some anger and grumbling discontent upon this comic's reveal.

I did not expect entrenchment to the point that the fallback point would be "but it was SOMETIMES Julia!" even when the Giant put in dialog specifically to show it was Eugene previously as well.

I am always amazed.

My new pet theory: Not only was it NEVER Julia appearing to Roy via "school project sending spell" BUT there actually has NEVER been a Julia. When Eugene killed Roy's brother, Roy was so distraught that Eugene made a homunculus "sister" to stop his whining. The homunculus was made with a repurposed disused clone copy of Eugene he had laying around and used polymorph any object to reform. So Julia HAS ALWAYS BEEN EUGENE FROM THE VERY BEGINNING!

bwah ha ha ha. Diabolical!

[Steveio]

All those who voted for "That's not Julia, that's dad!", stretch carefully before patting your back, rotator cuff injuries are painful.

Next strip is when Serini tells Roy it's not behind any door.

Serini already told them it's not behind any of the doors. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1258.html)

[Quinton250]

I don't understand everyone upset that there was a missed opportunity for character development, though to be fair I also don't understand it when people get upset about this same issue regarding every other fictional work I have a passing interest in either. Most stories only show positive character growth for some or all of the protagonists and a select few other side characters. For the majority of the characters in the majority of fiction, "character development" means showing the reader early on who that character is through their actions/words rather than having the narrator or another character explicitly tell you these details when you meet them, such as "John is an outcast who pretends to not like people as a self defense mechanism due to fear of rejection, he desperately wants human interaction". The point of this character development is to ensure their eventual choices or actions make sense within the context of the story, and that should be based on the previous appearances of that character. Making them change their ways drastically at the end of the story works against the previous character development, since it changes the personality that was carefully sculpted for the sake of change. Not everyone needs a life changing epiphany, and every time a secondary character appears isn't (and doesn't need to be) "character development".

[Tubercular Ox]

I disagree that putting on a mask to do everything you would have done without the mask is character growth.

Hell, its not even the first time he disguised himself to trick his son (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html).

I still have to talk to my friends after this, so the best you're going to get is a definition of character growth that I keep just for you. In which case I still need a word to describe what Eugene is doing right now from a literary criticism perspective.

[Ruck]

Nah, Eugene's line in the third to last panel of this strip confirms that it was him talking to Roy last time too. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html) There never was a Julia talking to Roy.

Huh, I didn't even connect that Eugene's "the last time" could only refer to that previous conversation; for some reason my mind just filed it as something earlier in this one. I must be too tired for this.

In that case, I'll amend to say that Eugene did a much better job impersonating Julia in his first visit than in his second.


I still have to talk to my friends after this, so the best you're going to get is a definition of character growth that I keep just for you. In which case I still need a word to describe what Eugene is doing right now from a literary criticism perspective.

Well, I don't know what the literary term is for "putting on a disguise and tricking your son in order to advance your own selfish needs and interests," but that's what it is.

[Quinton250]

In that case, I'll amend to say that Eugene did a much better job impersonating Julia in his first visit than in his second.


I think that's the point. First conversation, there are some very minor hints that no one would pick up on without previous reason to be suspicious, then when the second conversation makes it clear that it's Eugene you return to the first one and see there was some hints it was Eugene all along. That's just good writing in my opinion!

[Tubercular Ox]

Well, I don't know what the literary term is for "putting on a disguise and tricking your son in order to advance your own selfish needs and interests," but that's what it is.

Okay, fair point, I apologize to everyone involved.

So this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) is Roy's first conversation with Eugene about how to defeat Xykon

This (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1274.html) is Roy's last conversation with Eugene about how to defeat Xykon.

If those two scenes happened back to back, I would say Eugene's characterization is inconsistent. Instead, a whole lot of writing happened in between, and Eugene, while changed from his initial state, is still consistent.

Name that phenomenon and I'll start using it.

[enq]

Next strip is when Serini tells Roy it's not behind any door.

Occurs to me that Serini should try to Monty Hall this with Xykon. He would never change his first guess.

[MaverickMopete]

:roy: : "DAD, this isn't what I had in mind when I yelled "Pawn these visits off on Julia"!"

[Peelee]

Okay, fair point, I apologize to everyone involved.

So this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) is Roy's first conversation with Eugene about how to defeat Xykon

This (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1274.html) is Roy's last conversation with Eugene about how to defeat Xykon.

If those two scenes happened back to back, I would say Eugene's characterization is inconsistent. Instead, a whole lot of writing happened in between, and Eugene, while changed from his initial state, is still consistent.

Name that phenomenon and I'll start using it.

Characters in strip 15 did not act exactly like they do in later strips, news at 11.

The prequel books, which are not freely available sadly, show that Eugene's first chronological discussiom wirh Roy regarding Xykon are incredibly dismissive and he only relays thr information because Julia is too young and exoects Roy to convey it to Julia so someone competent (read: a wizard) can take care of it.

Also, the phenomenon you describe does indeed have a name: Early Installment Weirdness. See also: V using a rape spell.

[Ruck]

Huh, I didn't even connect that Eugene's "the last time" could only refer to that previous conversation; for some reason my mind just filed it as something earlier in this one. I must be too tired for this.

In that case, I'll amend to say that Eugene did a much better job impersonating Julia in his first visit than in his second.


Nah, Eugene's line in the third to last panel of this strip confirms that it was him talking to Roy last time too. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html) There never was a Julia talking to Roy.


"confirms" is a bit strong, but other than that i agree.

Thinking about your comment, yeah, it's not entirely implausible that Eugene was just eavesdropping on the first conversation and still speaking in character in his comment in this one. But I don't feel confident enough in that to put anything on it, I'm just not ruling it out, in large part because "Julia" acts so differently in her two visits.


I think that's the point. First conversation, there are some very minor hints that no one would pick up on without previous reason to be suspicious, then when the second conversation makes it clear that it's Eugene you return to the first one and see there was some hints it was Eugene all along. That's just good writing in my opinion!

Well, that's the thing: Before I made my comment in this thread, I went back and read "Julia's" first appearance and became more convinced it was really her the second time. Again, "Julia" just acts so differently between appearances that I didn't see any hints in the first appearance even now. A thread on it from a couple of strips ago, so I don't just rewrite what I or others have already written...


Until I saw how few people had shifted their positions, I thought this was where Rich went all the way to as good as saying it.

So that I can be on the record: That's Eugene. Not Julia. Not Sabine. Not Serini pretending to be Julia pretending to be Eugene pretending to be Julia. 100% Eugene.


I can definitely buy it at this point. What has me curious is whether this was the case in her last appearance as well.


I'd say not. In her last appearance she was acting like Julia, including taking friendly jabs at Roy and rolling with his. In this one, the mind behind her image is unambiguously someone who has no comprehension of Roy taking a jab and not meaning "I sincerely hate you."

Also, in her first appearance she criticized Eugene.

...


Broadly: It could be confirmation bias, but I went back and read the first Roy-Julia conversation and then the second, and it does feel different to me. Besides the possible slip-ups, she's more aggressive, more intent on talking strategy, less willing to razz Roy. I'm leaning more toward Eugene in disguise.


Oh, that raised my eyebrow the second I read it, too.

Went back and reread myself, too, and you're right. And the biggest thing that jumped out at me was Julia completely balking at the idea of helping in any way other than giving advice to start with and now being frustrated that giving advice is the only way she can help. In the span of what, eight hours or so?

So yeah, Eugene makes the most sense.

And looking back at the first conversation just now, if it is Eugene, he even gets some details right about things Julia probably wouldn't know that he does (Xykon's name, who Belkar is, for example). And he remembers Julia's birthday passed, which I wouldn't really expect him to because he seems much too self-absorbed for that (and it's possible being dead affects his sense of time passing, which would also make that more difficult).

That's a long list of differences.

Sure, the pronounced difference could be a sign of Eugene getting desperate and the façade slipping; I certainly won't rule that out. But the behavior and personalities of "Julia" in each visit are so different to me that I'm not 100% that it's Eugene both times.



Doesn't that sound a little risky? The next time real Julia calls and doesn't know about their talk, the gig is up.

I mean, hypothetically, but what real consequences would there be for Eugene? For one, he's already dead. For two, it seems pretty clear the climactic confrontation is coming soon; Roy might not get to talk to Julia again before then, and if he does talk to her after defeating Xykon and they figure it out, Eugene will already be in an afterlife. And if they do somehow figure it out before then and somehow manage to confront him, I'm sure he'd have an excuse like "The whole world is at stake, of course I'm going to do whatever it takes to make sure you listen to my advice."


Okay, fair point, I apologize to everyone involved.

So this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) is Roy's first conversation with Eugene about how to defeat Xykon

This (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1274.html) is Roy's last conversation with Eugene about how to defeat Xykon.

If those two scenes happened back to back, I would say Eugene's characterization is inconsistent. Instead, a whole lot of writing happened in between, and Eugene, while changed from his initial state, is still consistent.

Name that phenomenon and I'll start using it.

Eh, honestly, I wouldn't put too much stock in that first appearance, it was well before the strip's story was established and I don't think it's really reflective of Eugene's character. Since the real plot came into place, I think Eugene has been very consistent-- self-absorbed, self-aggrandizing, selfish, egotistical, unconcerned with the needs of others, happy to shirk his responsibilities in order to serve his own desires, treating his son manipulatively and with disdain. I don't think that's changed, and I don't think he's grown in any way.

[brian 333]

Good call for all who said it was Eugene. 'I was wrong,' appears to be my catchphrase. I was hoping for something cool like, 'Excelsior!'

At least it wasn't Sabine, or I'd have to say, 'I was really wrong!'

[Wintermoot]

Even with early strip weirdness, I think it's true that we've seen SOME growth from Eugene over the course of the strip. When he (as Julia) says "I'm sorry Roy, I just get frustrated being stuck up here unable to help" I read that as genuine emotion and genuine remorse. Something new to Eugene as of late.

Now, that doesn't mean I see his motives as wholly altruistic or non self-serving. I think a major component of his motivation for this change is "I need to get into an afterlife", but I think at least a small component of his motivation is becoming "I need to help my son." That's growth. Just small growth.

I stand by the assertion that Eugene's character growth is immaterial because he's an ancillary character. Roy is the protaganist. Eugene's change ONLY matters in how it affects Roy's story, Roy's character arc. Roy has progressed from "needing his Father's approval" to "no longer wants his Father's approval" to "no longer NEEDS his Father's approval", but I think the arc eventually ends with "Roy gets his Father's approval" because that's how it usually goes. I think this part of the story ends with Eugene giving Roy the approval he sought early on, now that he's grown beyond the need or desire for it.

I don't think it will end with a big self-sacrifice by Eugene where he sacrifices himself to save anyone. That would be a disservice to the story as a whole IMO.

[Tubercular Ox]

Also, the phenomenon you describe does indeed have a name: Early Installment Weirdness. See also: V using a rape spell.

Okay, so what's the difference between their first conversation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) and the beginning of the third act (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), and what's the difference between the beginning of the third act and the last conversation about Xykon? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1274.html)

[The MunchKING]

All those who voted for "That's not Julia, that's dad!", stretch carefully before patting your back, rotator cuff injuries are painful.

Next strip is when Serini tells Roy it's not behind any door.

I'm pretty sure she already did, a while ago. Then bopped Darken when he tried to speculate on where it was.

[Rinazina]

I always figured there was something off about "I made the Sending spell infinitely better and lower level at the same time."

+1 this was sounding off to me too, but I failed against that _Bluff_ check accepting that, well, Julia is smart and she's doing strong progress. Also, using the Oath as signal channel might sounds as a strong plausible limitation, to justify something like that.
I would not have believed in an improvement that would allows Julia to contact anyone.

Good we've not to reach this level of rule speculation :D

[Quinton250]

Okay, so what's the difference between their first conversation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) and the beginning of the third act (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), and what's the difference between the beginning of the third act and the last conversation about Xykon? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1274.html)

I think one of the main differences between the 2nd and 3rd example is that Eugene is pretending to be Julia. His dismissive and unsupporting view of Roy and his potential never changed, but he knows Roy is in a position to help him and he also knows Roy is less inclined to take advice he provides, thus the deception. In order to facilitate the deception, he has to act out of character.

[Ruck]

Okay, so what's the difference between their first conversation (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) and the beginning of the third act (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html), and what's the difference between the beginning of the third act and the last conversation about Xykon? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1274.html)

Well, to your first question, the biggest difference is that I don't think Eugene would actually care about whether Roy calls Sara. To your second, the biggest difference is the apology, so let's get into that...


Even with early strip weirdness, I think it's true that we've seen SOME growth from Eugene over the course of the strip. When he (as Julia) says "I'm sorry Roy, I just get frustrated being stuck up here unable to help" I read that as genuine emotion and genuine remorse. Something new to Eugene as of late.

I'm much less sure. It's not hard for me to see it as Eugene realizing he's breaking character, and/or realizing that if he keeps acting like this, he's going to fail at his own goal of giving Roy advice, because Roy won't take his calls anymore. So, even the apology could be just a tactic for meeting his own needs (getting Roy to listen to him, with the ancillary goal of staying in character so Roy will listen to him).

Maybe he's sincere about feeling useless. But even that I don't think is a great point in his favor because I don't think he'd be willing to say that to Roy unless he was disguised as someone else.


I think one of the main differences between the 2nd and 3rd example is that Eugene is pretending to be Julia. His dismissive and unsupporting view of Roy and his potential never changed, but he knows Roy is in a position to help him and he also knows Roy is less inclined to take advice he provides, thus the deception. In order to facilitate the deception, he has to act out of character.

Yep, well put.

[ti'esar]

I will say that personally, as far as the "has Eugene grown at all as a person" argument goes, I very specifically became less convinced it was him impersonating Julia because some of the alleged slip-ups seemed to imply guilt over saddling his family with the Blood Oath, something that he's never even remotely expressed in the past. So yeah, while there's totally other possible interpretations there as to why he slipped up, I do think there's at least a chance that he's become a (marginally) better person.

[The MunchKING]

Speak with animals is a 1st level Ranger spell.

It has been established that Belkar's wisdom is dumped down so far he doesn't get his Ranger spells.


But it has ALSO been established that Serini has wands and scrolls and stuff for tricks she might need AND enjoys being friends with people most adventurers might not. Maybe she's got some gear of Speak to Animals.

[Kish]

Yes, that line echo convinces me it was Eugene and not Julia before, too.

He's a substantially better actor than I would have given him credit for. (Except when he's not, like this time, of course.)

[Psyren]

Looks like a lot of you guys were right - I was really hoping it wouldn't be Eugene.


Seconded. It was heavily pointing towards Eugene, but I'd rather have Julia in the story more than keep coming back to Eugene.

+3 even though I had switched over (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?653583-OOTS-1274-The-Discussion-Thread&p=25692231&viewfull=1#post25692231) to the Its Eugene camp back in 1274.

And now we know what Eugene is up to - constant spying, because otherwise he wouldn't have known that Julia was visiting Roy.

---

Anyway, what Eugene SHOULD be saying is "wow, it's a good thing their ranger is bad at anything to do with being a ranger besides fighting" because Speak With Animals is a level 1 spell!

[Wintermoot]

I feel for the Giant really, as an author.

He decides to have Eugene impersonate Julia. Now to write that he has a VERY fine line to stay balanced on.

He needs to write it in such a way that the READER can possibly guess what's going on. At the very least so that, when it's revealed, they can go back and see the clues that were there as to the deception. Why? because if there are no clues, or no indication, then the reveal isn't satisfactory and will engender complaints of "coming out of nowhere!"

But he also needs to write it in such a way that the CHARACTER, Roy, doesn't see it until the author is ready for him to. Roy, who is established as being perceptive and intelligent.

So you've got readers clamoring that Roy should just as easily see through this paper-thin deception as they do on one side and people complaining that the clues weren't specific enough entrenched on the other.

Tough gig for the ol' Giant.

Personally, I think he did a bang up job! FWIW.

[Tubercular Ox]

Okay, to me, character growth is all about when an author is allowed to change the behavior/characterization of a character. Whether or not a character is a better person after the change doesn't matter, only whether the audience accepts that the character's change was organic.

So I say Eugene has grown because he decided to disguise himself as Julia. Later on we will find out the reason for his decision to disguise himself as Julia (although Rich has already hinted in a few of Eugene's outbursts), and it won't matter if he's still his same old selfish self doing selfish things for himself, it's still a trick Rich pulled to be able to portray Eugene doing things he didn't do before.

And if that's wrong, I need another literary criticism word for authors adding plot to characters so they don't have to have the same reaction to events throughout an entire story, because Rich is setting it up for it to keep happening to Eugene and Roy for at least a little bit longer.

[Wintermoot]

And now we know what Eugene is up to - constant spying, because otherwise he wouldn't have known that Julia was visiting Roy.



Julia wasn't visiting Roy, she's never been visiting Roy, its been Agatha Eugene all along.

Julia is happily sitting in her dorm room, oblivious to everything.

[hamishspence]

And now we know what Eugene is up to - constant spying, because otherwise he wouldn't have known that Julia was visiting Roy.

Or it was Eugene last time as well:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1191.html

and Julia has never called Roy.

EDIT: Ninjaed.

[Connington]

Well crud. Apparently I should have been keeping up with the forums, because I feel like the only person surprised by this reveal.

[brian 333]

New Theory!

Roy walks in and tells Serini, "I was just having a chat with my dead father. What? You can have a beholder for your child, but I can't have a Hamlet Complex?"

Two quatloos say he uses those exact words, ten says he'll say something along those lines. (And, yes, I know I already owe thirty quatloos I don't have, but I'm good for it.)

[Ruck]

Okay, to me, character growth is all about when an author is allowed to change the behavior/characterization of a character. Whether or not a character is a better person after the change doesn't matter, only whether the audience accepts that the character's change was organic.

Well, not all change is growth. But just so I'm not splitting hairs, I don't think "character growth" has to be a character becoming a better person; it can be becoming a greater person, a larger person (in terms of presence, not physically), or more themselves. That said...


So I say Eugene has grown because he decided to disguise himself as Julia. Later on we will find out the reason for his decision to disguise himself as Julia (although Rich has already hinted in a few of Eugene's outbursts), and it won't matter if he's still his same old selfish self doing selfish things for himself, it's still a trick Rich pulled to be able to portray Eugene doing things he didn't do before.

But as Peelee pointed out, this isn't even the first time Eugene has disguised himself to trick Roy. So I don't see where the growth or change is coming from.

[Keltest]

I will say that personally, as far as the "has Eugene grown at all as a person" argument goes, I very specifically became less convinced it was him impersonating Julia because some of the alleged slip-ups seemed to imply guilt over saddling his family with the Blood Oath, something that he's never even remotely expressed in the past. So yeah, while there's totally other possible interpretations there as to why he slipped up, I do think there's at least a chance that he's become a (marginally) better person.

I would argue that he was already this kind of person, and this is just the first time we see him actually getting introspective or voicing an opinion in a vulnerable moment, as opposed to complaining about his immediate circumstances. Sara was willing to defend him to Roy after all,

He knows it wasn't fair to his kids to saddle them with the oath, he genuinely does feel bad about it, and he would fix it himself if he could, but meanwhile he literally can't do anything about the problem he caused signed his family up to fix., and its eating him up.

[Fitzclowningham]

In 3.5 terms, the idea that it could have been Julia is just too far-fetched. Sending is 5th level for a wizard, far beyond Julia's capabilities. Upgrading it to unlimited communication from a 25 word message and reply would bump it up a minimum of 2 (3? 4?) levels. It's just not realistic that the blood oath would drop it all the way to the second level, at which Julia's casting probably tops off now.

[Wintermoot]

I'm much less sure. It's not hard for me to see it as Eugene realizing he's breaking character, and/or realizing that if he keeps acting like this, he's going to fail at his own goal of giving Roy advice, because Roy won't take his calls anymore. So, even the apology could be just a tactic for meeting his own needs (getting Roy to listen to him, with the ancillary goal of staying in character so Roy will listen to him).

Maybe he's sincere about feeling useless. But even that I don't think is a great point in his favor because I don't think he'd be willing to say that to Roy unless he was disguised as someone else.


So I will say that -IF- his "Roy I'm sorry, I just feel so useless" line was, as you posit, him realizing he's slipping character and trying to --act more like he thinks Julia would--, it wouldn't be paired with the immediate slip of "...up here".

The fact that the "up here" slip is in the same sentence, to me means that THAT entire exchange is him "slipping" OUT of character, rather than an effort to redouble back INTO character. Which is why it reads as genuine to me. I think, for at least that brief moment in time, Eugene genuinely WAS sorry.

[Quinton250]

I feel for the Giant really, as an author.

He decides to have Eugene impersonate Julia. Now to write that he has a VERY fine line to stay balanced on.

He needs to write it in such a way that the READER can possibly guess what's going on. At the very least so that, when it's revealed, they can go back and see the clues that were there as to the deception. Why? because if there are no clues, or no indication, then the reveal isn't satisfactory and will engender complaints of "coming out of nowhere!"

But he also needs to write it in such a way that the CHARACTER, Roy, doesn't see it until the author is ready for him to. Roy, who is established as being perceptive and intelligent.

So you've got readers clamoring that Roy should just as easily see through this paper-thin deception as they do on one side and people complaining that the clues weren't specific enough entrenched on the other.

Tough gig for the ol' Giant.

Personally, I think he did a bang up job! FWIW.

Very well said!

[Marsala]

Don't think that's how that works:



Yeah, I think that the Giant was strongly hinting there that Eugene will not be Lawful Good enough to get into Celestia if/when the blood oath is fulfilled. If Eugene himself knows or suspects this, that could be why he was so quick to agree to stay away from his family in Celestia - he knows he won't be seeing them anyway!

[AstralFire]

I would argue that he was already this kind of person, and this is just the first time we see him actually getting introspective or voicing an opinion in a vulnerable moment, as opposed to complaining about his immediate circumstances. Sara was willing to defend him to Roy after all,

He knows it wasn't fair to his kids to saddle them with the oath, he genuinely does feel bad about it, and he would fix it himself if he could, but meanwhile he literally can't do anything about the problem he caused signed his family up to fix., and its eating him up.

I would agree with this. We are seeing for the first time some of the flags for why Eugene was ever Lawful Good by any measure. I am glad for it, at the same time I am sad because I was really enjoying Julia's addition to the cast. Even in stick figure form, I appreciate feeling represented a bit.

[Ruck]

So I will say that -IF- his "Roy I'm sorry, I just feel so useless" line was, as you posit, him realizing he's slipping character and trying to --act more like he thinks Julia would--, it wouldn't be paired with the immediate slip of "...up here".

The fact that the "up here" slip is in the same sentence, to me means that THAT entire exchange is him "slipping" OUT of character, rather than an effort to redouble back INTO character. Which is why it reads as genuine to me. I think, for at least that brief moment in time, Eugene genuinely WAS sorry.

OK, I can see that. I'm not saying it's impossible Eugene was being sincere. I'm just saying my cynicism about him is entirely justified.


Yeah, I think that the Giant was strongly hinting there that Eugene will not be Lawful Good enough to get into Celestia if/when the blood oath is fulfilled. If Eugene himself knows or suspects this, that could be why he was so quick to agree to stay away from his family in Celestia - he knows he won't be seeing them anyway!

Hmm. That's an interesting point although we don't really see any indicator of it, and the coda to Start of Darkness makes me think he doesn't suspect anything, unless he's had some kind of recent change of heart or he's worried some of the things he's done since he died will be counted against him.

Personally, when I look at his most consistent motivations, behaviors, desires, and character traits, I don't see how anyone could think he is Lawful Good. I'd probably peg him as True Neutral. Not someone who does evil or revels in rule-breaking, just someone entirely self-absorbed, willing to break his oaths and neglect his responsibilities (the blood oath, his disdain and neglect toward his sons), not really known for any real good deeds. (I think it's interesting to compare Eugene and Horace as adventurers in that regard. When we hear of Horace's accomplishments, they're about slaying dragons to save villages. When we hear of Eugene's accomplishments, they're about winning awards and getting on magazine covers. Horace works to help those weaker than him and save their lives. Eugene works to get recognition and praise for being a good wizard.)

[Crusher]

That's a really solid strip. You can also feel that Eugene is really, really grudging proud of Roy but would never ever admit it.

[Emperor Time]

And then we zoom in on Mr. Scruffy, and it turns out the first three panels of this book were foreshadowing, as we get the St. Elsewhere ending, where this whole story was in the "real world" Mr. Scruffy's imagination while he was playing with a ball of string.

Sounds like the best ending to me. Or can an even better ending be possible?

[AstralFire]

Personally, when I look at his most consistent motivations, behaviors, desires, and character traits, I don't see how anyone could think he is Lawful Good. I'd probably peg him as True Neutral. Not someone who does evil or revels in rule-breaking, just someone entirely self-absorbed, willing to break his oaths and neglect his responsibilities (the blood oath, his disdain and neglect toward his sons), not really known for any real good deeds. (I think it's interesting to compare Eugene and Horace as adventurers in that regard. When we hear of Horace's accomplishments, they're about slaying dragons to save villages. When we hear of Eugene's accomplishments, they're about winning awards and getting on magazine covers. Horace works to help those weaker than him and save their lives. Eugene works to get recognition and praise for being a good wizard.)

I think he is like a more extreme version of Roy: his ideals are lawful good. His fallibility may make his actions more consistent with another alignment.

With Roy, he tries hard *enough* to still be plausibly LG, especially from Azure City on. Eugene doesn't anymore, though it probably was more excusable when he was younger and less was at stake for him personally.

[whitehelm]

New Theory!

Roy walks in and tells Serini, "I was just having a chat with my dead father. What? You can have a beholder for your child, but I can't have a Hamlet Complex?"

Two quatloos say he uses those exact words, ten says he'll say something along those lines. (And, yes, I know I already owe thirty quatloos I don't have, but I'm good for it.)

I was about to post this...Serini already told Roy here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1258.html) that this isn't the final dungeon where the gate is. Roy is concerned about how long Xykon will be searching these doors because that's how long they have before Xykon goes looking elsewhere. Eugene-Julia doesn't know this, so he says they have about half that time because the gate's probably somewhere in the middle. Roy agrees instead of correcting him, so he's not being honest with "Julia". I kind of hope he reveals he knew it was Eugene all along.

[Crusher]

Unlike us, Roy doesn't get two weeks of free time to analyze everything between strips :smallbiggrin:

This is the key point, btw. Roy has a FAR higher hurdle to guess it in real time when he's distracted and it all really matters vs us sitting around for weeks pondering casually.

[SavageWombat]

I love this as character study for Eugene (calling it "growth" is factually incorrect) but my plot-brain wants to know what the point of this was. I'm fearful that Eugene is going to screw up Roy's plan somehow.

Congrats to the smarties who saw it coming.

[Tubercular Ox]

Well, not all change is growth.

In the normal course of events, I would agree with you, but authors need a technical word here because there are tiers of how well a character is developed and the tiers are the same regardless of whether a character's destiny is to be a hero or not. A character that behaves inconsistently is just bad. A character that's consistent but doesn't change is flat. A character that changes but doesn't grow is a pointless tailchaser that frustrates the audience if it goes on too long. Characters whose growth eventually concludes a character arc are the most satisfying (according to recent polling data).

It's easy to say protagonists grow, they're destined to become heroes. Villains don't (have to) become better people, but they have to follow the same checklist when deciding if they're well characterized. Having your villain slip past the moral event horizon just before the final battle can be what the audience needs to get on board with the heroes shutting up and having a decent action scene, and it helps to explain why the final battle is now, when the villain is irredeemable, and not earlier, when he (maybe) wasn't, and it explains why the villain didn't use his awesome powers on the heroes before they acquired the macguffin. And people like them more (or like to hate them more).

If we're allowed to say the villain grows, then we can say the villain needs proper character growth before they slip past the moral event horizon or else the slipping past comes off as tacky. And all the same tools that let protagonists grow into heroes let villains grow into monsters. It's awkward to have two words for the same thing that only differ in whether they refer to villain or hero, because then they would need a third word for ambiguous side characters who aren't meant to be either hero or villain, and it gets worse from there.

Eugene has "grown." He decided to disguise himself as Julia, he's restraining his sarcasm to what he thinks Julia can get away with, he's discussing strategy with Roy instead of just telling him to get on with it, he's almost taken responsibility for the effect his actions are having on his family. These are all things Eugene is doing that he didn't do until this point in the strip. It really, really, doesn't matter if he's grown as a person, what's important for discussing the plot is that he's grown as a character.

And I'm still open to that you-name-it-I'll-use-it thing, just make sure you're splitting the right hair when you name it.

[Frozenstep]

Yep, called it. As soon as I saw 'Julia' say "stuck up here", I knew it wasn't Sabine.

I thought the first meeting might have been Julia, and Eugene was just copying, but the more I think about it, the custom message thing is just too contrived, really. I think I was just convinced by that one moment where Roy says "I didn't think you would want to help" to Julia, and Julia is actually just lost for words for a moment. Except now I wonder how Eugene took that, hearing his son casually admit he didn't believe his sister would want to help him in a life-or-death end-of-the-world quest. Maybe he's finally realizing just how bad of a job he's done raising his kids...

[AstralFire]

And I'm still open to that you-name-it-I'll-use-it thing, just make sure you're splitting the right hair when you name it.

Savage Wombat above called it a 'character study' and that works reasonably well. Personally, I'm not fussing over 'growth' once distinction has been made between growing as a character and growing (maturing) as a person.

[Precure]

I'll go with "it's not character growth, but LG part of his personality is coming out after so many years of moral devolution"

[faustin]

This is the key point, btw. Roy has a FAR higher hurdle to guess it in real time when he's distracted and it all really matters vs us sitting around for weeks pondering casually.


Yet somehow, I feel Roy was wary, and the mention of Julia's audition just a ruse to test his suspicious.

Chances said audition was cancelled or something similar, and Eugene never found out because his own neglect as a father figure.

[Ruck]

I think he is like a more extreme version of Roy: his ideals are lawful good. His fallibility may make his actions more consistent with another alignment.

With Roy, he tries hard *enough* to still be plausibly LG, especially from Azure City on. Eugene doesn't anymore, though it probably was more excusable when he was younger and less was at stake for him personally.

But I don't think Eugene's ideals are Lawful Good. I think Eugene's ideal is to be left alone to do wizard research and practice and to be praised and recognized for his wizardry.




Eugene has "grown." He decided to disguise himself as Julia, he's restraining his sarcasm to what he thinks Julia can get away with, he's discussing strategy with Roy instead of just telling him to get on with it, he's almost taken responsibility for the effect his actions are having on his family. These are all things Eugene is doing that he didn't do until this point in the strip. It really, really, doesn't matter if he's grown as a person, what's important for discussing the plot is that he's grown as a character.

I agree that the term doesn't matter much, as long as we're talking about the same thing, so I don't have much to add to the earlier sections of this post. Perhaps I can be more precise:

Before, Eugene was willing to impersonate someone to deceive and manipulate Roy to get what he wants.
Now, Eugene is willing to impersonate someone to deceive and manipulate Roy to get what he wants.

That's what I mean when I say that I don't see where the growth or change is coming from. If anything, impersonating Julia instead of a being of pure Law and Good seems worse.

I'll grant that perhaps the willingness to admit his own worries and responsibility is growth, but I think we have good reason to be cynical about Eugene, so I'm not convinced of his sincerity. (And while I really don't think a half-hearted admission while disguised as someone else counts for much, I'm willing to grant that baby steps are still steps.) And I'm even less convinced in his willingness to restrain his desire to berate or insult Roy to keep up his illusion as qualifying as growth, since he's only doing it in service of his own personal goals. (Although, who knows, maybe he really is impulsive enough that that counts for him. He seemed to manage fine in restraining himself during the trial at Azure City, though.)

[Keltest]

But I don't think Eugene's ideals are Lawful Good. I think Eugene's ideal is to be left alone to do wizard research and practice and to be praised and recognized for his wizardry.

And what are you basing that off of? He was an adventurer for a long time, thats basically definitionally not "being left alone to do wizard research."

[TRH]

With regards to character growth, once line I don't think was mentioned yet was 1273 panel 10, when Eugene realized Roy's fighter training taught him more than just how to hit things. After all his prior lines putting down Roy's abilities, that is something different than what we've seen before.

Granted, this room seems about as skeptical about the possibility of Eugene changing for the better as Roy was about Belkar, so take that with as much salt as you want.

[bunsen_h]

Unlike us, Roy doesn't get two weeks of free time to analyze everything between strips :smallbiggrin:

Talking is a free action, but thinking isn't? :smallsmile: Maybe when said thinking is expressed in words, e.g. as a soliloquy or in a "thinking to myself" word balloon.


Promising to check in every few hours and offering strategic and tactical advice on defeating Xykon while disguised to circumvent the animosity he and his son share is significantly different than sniping at his son's inability and more or less prodding him forward without materially providing any assistance. An English teacher would call this character growth.

Growth doesn't have to be in a positive direction.


Speak with animals is a 1st level Ranger spell.

It has been established that Belkar's wisdom is dumped down so far he doesn't get his Ranger spells.

I don't know much about how the game has changed since the AD&D that I played. Could Belkar have been doing things to bump up that abysmal stat?

[Tubercular Ox]

I think we have good reason to be cynical about Eugene, so I'm not convinced of his sincerity.

I feel like we're owed either dialog about or flashback to Eugene making the decision to disguise himself as Julia. That will decide whether it's growth or "growth".

But, hey! Interesting that Rich chose to reveal Eugene to the audience before revealing it to Roy. That could mean Rich didn't want the debate to simmer until Eugene's reveal to Roy. Or maybe we need to know that Bloodfeast can see him for some reason. Or maybe knowing it's Eugene changes foreshadowing Eugene is responsible for in a way that Rich wants available now.

[Tzardok]

I don't know much about how the game has changed since the AD&D that I played. Could Belkar have been doing things to bump up that abysmal stat?

Sure. Stat boosting items like a Periapt of Wisdom for example. Thing is, do we have anything to suggest that he's using those?

[TRH]

Sure. Stat boosting items like a Periapt of Wisdom for example. Thing is, do we have anything to suggest that he's using those?

More immediate question: will they see a need to talk with Bloodfeast? If he's not really agitated and demanding Belkar's attention then they won't bother. And I don't see that as a sure thing just yet.

[Quinton250]

I feel like we're owed either dialog about or flashback to Eugene making the decision to disguise himself as Julia. That will decide whether it's growth or "growth".


I don't agree with this at all. At the end of the story, when we are reflecting on this comic, no one is going to be concerned with Eugene's late story character growth (unless the story requires it, but we aren't owed it to check off a box of minimum requirements for creating a good narrative). What he does, and what his motivation for doing what he does, and whether that motivation changes or stays static, only matters in relation to Roy's story. If it's required for Eugene to doubt Roy until the last moment in the story he makes an appearance, that is what he will do. If Roy's story needs to be bookended by his father gaining respect for him, then that is what will happen. It will occur because of the story that the Giant wants to tell about Roy', with no consideration given for Eugene's character growth in a silo.

[Rinazina]

I'm fearful that Eugene is going to screw up Roy's plan somehow.

It should not be, I mean, the optimist in me wants to believe that, Eugene can be helpful.

The order would suffer from the IFCC some nasty surprise, and the Quinton + team evil is already something to be concerned about.

Tarquin, MOTD, and Roy's Archon are the other variables in play.

Eugene has been an irresponsabile father and five him a last chance to do something good is a fair plot point

[Doug Lampert]

+3 even though I had switched over (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?653583-OOTS-1274-The-Discussion-Thread&p=25692231&viewfull=1#post25692231) to the Its Eugene camp back in 1274.

I gave up on it being Julia in the 1273 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?653207-OOTS-1273-The-Discussion-Thread&p=25683805&highlight=Julia#post25683805) discusion thread. But hadn't fully committed to Eugene. Congrats to those who got it right.

[PBlades]

I am surprised Eugene remembers and keep track of Julia's birthday. I'd prefer if it had been Julia rather than Eugene, but admittedly their personalities (as noted by Roy) are *very* similar, even if Julia may have been more loving. I like the reveal because in hindsight we can look back and see all the clues fall into place.

Finally, I want to raise something noone here seems to think is relevant: Eugene could have just been talking with Julia and asked for her help to keep the deceptions straight or even realizes 'Hey, Julia has joined the voicechat... That gave me an idea'. It's an extraneous thing, but I can see it being what happened.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly, never felt that Eugene had much to contribute once Roy got his rez, so kinda disappointed so far. But Rich probably knows what he's doing.

[AstralFire]

But I don't think Eugene's ideals are Lawful Good. I think Eugene's ideal is to be left alone to do wizard research and practice and to be praised and recognized for his wizardry.

Eugene's ideal *life* is aptly described such. When I say 'ideals', I mean the moral standards to which he compares himself and others internally. As a hypocrite he often doesn't follow them as well as he thinks he does, but he ended up at Celestia Limbo for a reason. I don't think every person who can be reasonably called Lawful Good has an ideal life that's oriented entirely around being lawful and good even if their moral standards are.

I agree the writing up to this point has been absolutely vacant on showing any of that, it's a point I used to raise years back, but this looks like the writing trying to rectify that.


I don't know much about how the game has changed since the AD&D that I played. Could Belkar have been doing things to bump up that abysmal stat?

He could be spending ability increases (levels 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 -- his arc's been in the ballpark of 8 - 16, iirc) on Wisdom. It would not really make sense in anything even close to 3.5 rules to do so but I always felt Elan going back to bard for Neutralize Poison of all things kind of signaled the absolute end of that stuff meaningfully mattering. Though by the same token, I think Mr. Burlew's writing style would really trend away from putting emphasis on seeing sapient intelligence as three one-dimensional scores to raise or lower for anything but a gag this far after the Dungeon of Dorukan.


I am surprised Eugene remembers and keep track of Julia's birthday.

My money is on 'Eugene did his research' more than 'Eugene naturally remembers'. Roy's mother has mentioned that anything Eugene set his mind to, for as long as he set his mind to it, he was fully devoted. At the moment he is fully devoted to mimicking his daughter.

[Tubercular Ox]

I don't agree with this at all. At the end of the story, when we are reflecting on this comic, no one is going to be concerned with Eugene's late story character growth (unless the story requires it, but we aren't owed it to check off a box of minimum requirements for creating a good narrative). What he does, and what his motivation for doing what he does, and whether that motivation changes or stays static, only matters in relation to Roy's story. If it's required for Eugene to doubt Roy until the last moment in the story he makes an appearance, that is what he will do. If Roy's story needs to be bookended by his father gaining respect for him, then that is what will happen. It will occur because of the story that the Giant wants to tell about Roy', with no consideration given for Eugene's character growth in a silo.

Fair enough. I was *this close* to adding "That doesn't mean we'll get it."

[Fyraltari]

Finally, I want to raise something noone here seems to think is relevant: Eugene could have just been talking with Julia and asked for her help to keep the deceptions straight or even realizes 'Hey, Julia has joined the voicechat... That gave me an idea'. It's an extraneous thing, but I can see it being what happened.

He can't talk to Julia. She doesn't have the sword.

[Psyren]

Julia wasn't visiting Roy, she's never been visiting Roy, its been Agatha Eugene all along.

Julia is happily sitting in her dorm room, oblivious to everything.


Or it was Eugene last time as well:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1191.html

and Julia has never called Roy.

EDIT: Ninjaed.

Yeah I thought of that as soon as I hit post but decided to let it stand. You're right.

Eugene is getting less Lawful by the second. I'm guessing it'll be really easy for him to keep his promise to Roy when the time comes.

[Fish]

The literary criticism term I would use is tactics. It applies more to an actor doing an analysis of a character for stage drama, but essentially a character has goals, obstacles and tactics.

Eugene’s goal has always been selfish: get into Celestia. He’s not saving the world for its own sake or because he cares about the lives of the beings who live there.

Eugene’s obstacles are that he is deceased, and he can only communicate with his son, who does not live up to his expectation of what a person must be (viz, a wizard) to achieve Eugene’s goal. (This is probably why he overlooks Belkar, whom he may see only as a fighter type; he doesn’t believe a fighter, or just Belkar specifically, can grow.)

Eugene has also not changed tactics. Sacrifice whatever and whomever is necessary to prevent him from being stuck in Heaven’s lobby. Manifest on earth, lie, use illusions to disguise his nature and manipulate events.

Compare this to — yes, the inevitable Star Wars sidebar — Luke rescuing Han from Jabba the Hutt. Goal: unchanged since Luke tried rescuing Han on Bespin. Obstacle: somewhat changed; Han is still frozen in carbonite and held by an enemy, albeit a different one in a different place. Tactics: very much changed. Instead of charging in heedlessly with violence, bravery and good intentions, Luke has a plan. He is measured, calm. He offers peace. He tries to negotiate. When that fails, he makes good on his threat. That’s growth. He’s not just doing the same thing he always did before. He changed his self to be the rescuer Han needed.

What I see here for Eugene is imminent growth. He’s seeing Roy is more capable than he thought; he is starting to feel more personally affected by the outcome (although still in a selfish way — if the world is destroyed, Eugene will be stuck on a cloud and bored for eternity). He feels a greater need to interfere. His tactic is forcing him to try to empathize with his daughter: to see things from Julia’s POV. He is not yet to the point that he recognizes his promise to stay away from his family in Celestia will be painful and that he will regret his hasty oath, but that is the growth I expect for him in the future. An end to his waiting outside of Celestia, but not an end to his exile from the happiness he hopes to find. Tragic, but totally fitting.

[Devlerbat]

I still think this was a dumb move on Eugene's part.

[Kurald Galain]

Oh Eugene, you are such a {scrubbed}!

[Joerg]

I thought Eugene could only contact Roy when he is alone? That wasn't so on the Mechane when Julia first appeared.

[Psyren]

I thought Eugene could only contact Roy when he is alone? That wasn't so on the Mechane when Julia first appeared.

S/he only appeared after Belkar left and Roy was alone. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1191.html)

[Tubercular Ox]

What I see here for Eugene is imminent growth. He’s seeing Roy is more capable than he thought; he is starting to feel more personally affected by the outcome (although still in a selfish way — if the world is destroyed, Eugene will be stuck on a cloud and bored for eternity). He feels a greater need to interfere. His tactic is forcing him to try to empathize with his daughter: to see things from Julia’s POV. He is not yet to the point that he recognizes his promise to stay away from his family in Celestia will be painful and that he will regret his hasty oath, but that is the growth I expect for him in the future. An end to his waiting outside of Celestia, but not an end to his exile from the happiness he hopes to find. Tragic, but totally fitting.

I support this interpretation. Eugene can't just grow, the author's gotta tell the story of his growth. And tactics is a word I may use in the future.

[georgie_leech]

Hm. Is this the Giant's way of saying Speak with Animals is off the table? Or is this just Eugene forgetting that Rangers can cast it too, assuming our local Ranger gets some Owl's Wisdom at some point? :smalltongue:

[Tzardok]

Wisdom of the Owl isn't enough; the spell doesn't last long enough for Belkar to actually preper spells in his temporary slots.

[Dellmarcus]

I was quite convinced it was just crazy speculation.

Me too, good job everybody who called this. Still waiting to see why he would do this, but good catch everybody. :)

[georgie_leech]

Wisdom of the Owl isn't enough; the spell doesn't last long enough for Belkar to actually preper spells in his temporary slots.

Not without external assistance maybe, but it wouldn't be the first time. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)

[Breccia]

Hm. Is this the Giant's way of saying Speak with Animals is off the table? Or is this just Eugene forgetting that Rangers can cast it too, assuming our local Ranger gets some Owl's Wisdom at some point? :smalltongue:

I was coming here to post that Belkar technically could...but would not have any reason to do it. Bloodfeast would not know this was important.

[TRH]

Me too, good job everybody who called this. Still waiting to see why he would do this, but good catch everybody. :)

I think the key is 1194, in the middle of the first call with "Julia." Minrah tells Belkar how "When you make a change, everyone who meets you from that point on? Only knows the new version of you. And that's nice."

It seems like Eugene is doing this to start over fresh with Roy, leaving behind the baggage of their existing relationship, offering advice beyond "Just kill Xykon already you moron!" and all that. That doesn't itself answer the question of what spurred Eugene to want to start over, but that seems like what's happening.

[andowero]

I'm going to count this as a personal win even though I was more on the Sabine/vessel bandwagon so this is no personal win at all

Could the Quinton be the vessel? Just guessing. Has it been proposed already?



Next strip is when Serini tells Roy it's not behind any door.

He already knows. Serini told them.

[brian 333]

Honestly, never felt that Eugene had much to contribute once Roy got his rez, so kinda disappointed so far. But Rich probably knows what he's doing.

This is where I am as well.

My question is, if there was no obstacle to Eugene getting into his LG afterlife, would he still be here trying to help Roy?

If the answer is "no," then what we see now is Eugene up to his same old bag of tricks.

In other words, so long as his goal is, "Getting Through The Gate," it is not, "Help Roy," "Save the world," or "Fulfill his blood oath."

Until his reasons change, Eugene won't change. He can't get through the gate so long as he's trying to get through the gate.

[Keltest]

This is where I am as well.

My question is, if there was no obstacle to Eugene getting into his LG afterlife, would he still be here trying to help Roy?

If the answer is "no," then what we see now is Eugene up to his same old bag of tricks.

In other words, so long as his goal is, "Getting Through The Gate," it is not, "Help Roy," "Save the world," or "Fulfill his blood oath."

Until his reasons change, Eugene won't change. He can't get through the gate so long as he's trying to get through the gate.

So Good can't be cynical then?

[Tubercular Ox]

Hm. Is this the Giant's way of saying Speak with Animals is off the table? Or is this just Eugene forgetting that Rangers can cast it too, assuming our local Ranger gets some Owl's Wisdom at some point? :smalltongue:

Given the trouble Roy had getting people to see him when he was dead, I wonder why Bloodfeast can see Eugene at all.

[Kaed]

I always figured there was something off about "I made the Sending spell infinitely better and lower level at the same time."

It's certainly the kind of lie that is easy to pass off on someone who is not experienced in magical theory. The fact that Roy has no intellectual curiosity about the workings of magic (mostly due to his rejection of his father's profession) is also why he never, say, asked V about it. If he was really interested in the concept that his teenage sister had come up with a spell that his high level mage didn't have, might have suggested the possibility of researching it independently to V.

At which point V would probably have immediately, and very verbosely, explained why that is impossible and silly.

[Fyraltari]

I always figured there was something off about "I made the Sending spell infinitely better and lower level at the same time."

I mean, the caveat that it only works with one other person ever rather made that believable.

[Kaed]

I mean, the caveat that it only works with one other person ever rather made that believable.

It works for 'why it's working now' but not "Julia's" explanation that she will 'fix it later'. It's a blatant handwave he overlooked because he actually isn't interested in the theory beyond it's tactical, immediate usage.

[Fyraltari]

It works for 'why it's working now' but not "Julia's" explanation that she will 'fix it later'. It's a blatant handwave he overlooked because he actually isn't interested in the theory beyond it's tactical, immediate usage.

Yes, also I believe the reader was meant to take that as overconfidence on Julia's part at the time. Who here hasn't started a student's project only to have to revise their ambitions down significantly towards the end?

[Kaed]

Eugene is getting less Lawful by the second.

I don't think being self absorbed to the point of ignoring everyone else's needs and desires is mutually exclusive with the concept of a lawful alignment. *points at Miko*

He's following a clear and consistent code this entire time, it just happens to be one wherein he is a selfish jerk from the perspective of everyone else.

That being said though, he has done a number of things outside of this that definitely fall outside of what I would consider 'lawful', such as beating up a celestial and taking their place in a summon. But I would also consider that in Eugene's point of view, he has been deeply wronged and there is no enjoyment to be had out of sitting around on a cloud, waiting boredly for his 'failure' of a son to die and join him again. This entire experience for Eugene is effectively one prolonged tantrum, as he is forced to reckon with the mistakes he made in life and hates every moment of it, desperately trying to claw back any sense of relevance he can.

He is certain his input is needed in the living world, and emotionally incapable of accepting his own mistakes have ostracized him from anyone he could be talking to now, except for Roy (and arguably, even Roy, given this new 'Julia" facade). It's all just 'unfair' to him, and thus he considers his personal needs more important than any other factors.

Honestly? I would say he is drifting more towards Evil, or maybe even just Good/Evil Neutrality, than 'chaotic'. It's fortunate for Eugene that it doesn't seem like they consider posthumous behavior in Judgement.

[Ruck]

And what are you basing that off of? He was an adventurer for a long time, thats basically definitionally not "being left alone to do wizard research."

Literally everything we've seen from him in the strip. The only reason he became an adventurer was to avenge his mentor he was researching and practicing with. (Which he was more or less compelled to do after getting drunk and swearing a blood oath.)

Again, where are the stories of Eugene's heroism? I know about his Wizzy awards and his Wizardry Today covers. Don't know of a single purely altruistic thing he ever did.


Eugene's ideal *life* is aptly described such. When I say 'ideals', I mean the moral standards to which he compares himself and others internally. As a hypocrite he often doesn't follow them as well as he thinks he does, but he ended up at Celestia Limbo for a reason. I don't think every person who can be reasonably called Lawful Good has an ideal life that's oriented entirely around being lawful and good even if their moral standards are.

Yeah, he ended up there because he called himself that. Again, what evidence is there his life is at all oriented around being lawful and good?


I agree the writing up to this point has been absolutely vacant on showing any of that, it's a point I used to raise years back, but this looks like the writing trying to rectify that.

I don't think the writing being absolutely vacant on showing any of that is a mistake.


So Good can't be cynical then?

That's a pretty unfair extrapolation on the verge of entirely putting words in someone else's mouth.


I don't think being self absorbed to the point of ignoring everyone else's needs and desires is mutually exclusive with the concept of a lawful alignment. *points at Miko*

I don't think Miko is much of an example of the concept of a Lawful alignment.

[Fish]

I support this interpretation. Eugene can't just grow, the author's gotta tell the story of his growth. And tactics is a word I may use in the future.
That was one reason I was convinced it was Eugene, not Julia. Roy genuinely seems to have love for his sister and she for him; they left each other in Cliffport on a good note.

Eugene and Roy, on the other hand, have tons of unfinished business, and it pretty much has to be concluded before the end of the story as opposed to an epilogue; and as Roy is unlikely to spend another duration in Celestia working things out with him, and as Eugene has nobody to talk to, it seemed likely to happen this way. Furthermore, Eugene is such a lying poop bag, the reader wouldn’t believe any off-screen growth anyway.

[Satohika]

Thank you for the new comics Mr. Burlew, but I have a question for you: Was father pretended to be daughter only recently, or it was him who appeared as sister to Roy back on the ship? Please explain. With due respect;

~$atohi Kazuma

[hamishspence]

Thank you for the new comics Mr. Burlew, but I have a question for you: Was father pretended to be daughter only recently, or it was him who appeared as sister to Roy back on the ship? Please explain. With due respect;


Given that the last time "Julia" appeared, "she" said "I can't exactly leave it up to you when it's my future on the line"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html

it seems pretty unambiguous to me that this was what Eugene's referring to in panels 8 and 10:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1276.html

[Kaed]

I don't think Miko is much of an example of the concept of a Lawful alignment.

Well, she is, and she isn't.

On the one hand, she's blatantly a kind of meta-commentary on players who play 'lawful stupid' characters, who think being lawful means strictly adhering to the law at the expense of all other considerations such as human dignity, pragmatism, or mercy. The kind of person who plays a paladin so they can arrest the party thief for picking a lock in their line of sight, the meme everyone likes to hate on.

But on the other hand, you have to consider that within the setting itself, her behavior also a commentary on the concept of 'objective' morality that Lawful/Chaotic/Evil/Good implies. She was permitted to act this way not just by the very gods who imbued her with the power to be such a bully, but by the people around her, who tolerated (if sometimes barely) her aggressive, murderous behavior because they felt that in the end, it served a greater good.

People like Miko slaughtered entire tribes of goblinfolk (including innocent children) and have been for years before she was born, without losing their divine blessings, simply because the gods have a secret agenda that involves keeping the Dark One from accomplishing his own. Shinjo admits moments before his own death that he has 'had concerns' about Miko for years, but clearly was blowing them off until she was holding him at sword point.

By the metrics of the world she lives in, her obeying the 'letter' of what 'lawful good' means (destroying evil, upholding the law) was good enough, even if she trampled all over the spirit of it on a daily basis, up until she crossed a moral event horizon that made her behavior no longer acceptable to the gods that had been turning a blind eye to her behavior until then.

Is it any surprise she struggled to accept that she had made a mistake, with her entire life being full of a lack of negative reinforcement towards her bad behavior?

[Peat]

Couple of people have already said this but I really won't be surprised if Roy reveals he knew that was his dad at some point. Going along with someone who thinks they're fooling him so he can fool them is very much in Roy's wheelhouse and I think some of the things he asked and talked about could have been conversational traps to confirm his hunch.

The only real question is whether it's a better story for Roy to be shocked when his father reveals this, or to throw it back in his face that he knew... or to never know at all.

[hamishspence]

People like Miko slaughtered entire tribes of goblinfolk (including innocent children) and have been for years before she was born, without losing their divine blessings, simply because the gods have a secret agenda that involves keeping the Dark One from accomplishing his own.

Some may have Fallen.



Everything you see happened.

However, everything that happened is not necessarily seen.

Suffice to say that the Twelve Gods are not beholden to put on the same visual display they did for Miko for every paladin who transgresses, and that all transgressions are not created equal. It is possible that some of the paladins who participated in the attack crossed the line. It is also possible that most did not. A paladin who slips up in the execution of their god-given orders does not warrant the same level of personal attention by the gods as one who executes the legal ruler of their nation on a glorified hunch. Think of Miko's Fall as being the equivalent of the CEO of your multinational company showing up in your cubicle to fire you, because you screwed up THAT much.

Of course, while Redcloak is not narrating the scene, it is shown mostly from his perspective; we don't see how many Detect Evils were used before the attack started, and we don't see how many paladins afterwards try to heal their wounds and can't, because these things are not important to Redcloak's story. Whether or not some of the paladins Fell does not bring Redcloak's family back to life. Indeed, if we transplant the scene to real life, he would think it cold comfort that some of the police officers who gunned down his family had to turn in their badge afterward (but were otherwise given no punishment by their bosses at City Hall).

Dramatically, showing no-name paladins Falling at that point in the story would confuse the narrative by making it unclear whether or not Redcloak had already earned a form of retribution against them. To be clear, he had not: Whether or not some of them lost a few class abilities does not change the fact that Redcloak suffered an injustice at their hands, one that shaped his entire adult life. That was the point of the scene. Showing them Fall or not simply was not important to Redcloak's story, so it was omitted.

Further, it would have cheapened Miko's fall to show the same thing over and over--and Miko, as a major character in the series, deserved the emotional weight that her Fall carried (or at least that I hope it carried).

I hope that clears this issue up. I hope in vain, largely, but there you have it.

(Oh, and I leave it up to the readers to form their own opinions on which paladins may have Fallen and which didn't.)

[Kaed]

The fact that the concept that some (or all, or none) of the paladins may have fallen off screen doesn't really undermine my point, though. No one was stopping them from performing that slaughter. They went into it believing it was justified.

You can see the echos of this mindset in the main antagonist of How The Paladin Got His Scar, too. Except that time, one man *did* stop them. The fact that he did doesn't obviate the extremely troubling ideological problems that lead to the radicalized behavior.

[Jacky720]

(although still in a selfish way — if the world is destroyed, Eugene will be stuck on a cloud and bored for eternity)

I don't think that's the case. Panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1047.html) shows that the world being destroyed is a win condition for Eugene. It's just that with the gods in a deadlock, it would be faster for Roy to actually succeed at saving the world.

[georgie_leech]

I don't think Miko is much of an example of the concept of a Lawful alignment.

She was certainly a terrible example of LG, in fact so bad that she Fell, but I don't think that was so much for her failing to be Lawful as failing to be Good.

[Fish]

I don't think that's the case. Panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1047.html) shows that the world being destroyed is a win condition for Eugene. It's just that with the gods in a deadlock, it would be faster for Roy to actually succeed at saving the world.
Technically, it shows that Eugene thought this was the case at the time. It does not prove it is necessarily the case.

If he is now back, continuing to meddle in the affairs of mortals, it may well be that Eugene now knows this no longer obtains. Otherwise, why show up at all?

[Keltest]

Technically, it shows that Eugene thought this was the case at the time. It does not prove it is necessarily the case.

If he is now back, continuing to meddle in the affairs of mortals, it may well be that Eugene now knows this no longer obtains. Otherwise, why show up at all?

Presumably because he's bored and frustrated with his helplessness, like he said, and wants to do something proactive.

[danielxcutter]

Eugene might be a selfish geezer, but he’s “just” a selfish geezer if that makes any sense. I don’t think he’s actually getting into Celestia, but it’s not like he’s going to the Nine Hells either.

[NobleCuriosity]

Next comic, Eugene walks around a corner, smirks, cackles and turns into Sabine. "There, that will give the little lizard something to think about!"

Next next comic, Sabine teleports out, appears at a desolated goblin village, walks over to a grave, goes down on one knee and says "Father, I shall avenge you!" and turns into Redcloak's niece.

Just want you to know, I smiled at the first paragraph and literally laughed out loud at the second.

[gatemansgc]

was it EVER julia the times she's contacted him claiming she was using the link? now the speculation will go to that!

[brian 333]

So Good can't be cynical then?

Good can be cynical all it wants. Good can't abandon self-imposed obligations until he discovers that doing so causes actual harm to himself, then lie, manipulate, and guilt-trip innocents into fulfilling those obligations, not for their own benefit, but for his.

Eugene will, at the very least, have to stop the very behavior that got him where he is now in order to move on.

[JT]

Yep, called it. As soon as I saw 'Julia' say "stuck up here", I knew it wasn't Sabine.

I thought the first meeting might have been Julia, and Eugene was just copying, but the more I think about it, the custom message thing is just too contrived, really. I think I was just convinced by that one moment where Roy says "I didn't think you would want to help" to Julia, and Julia is actually just lost for words for a moment. Except now I wonder how Eugene took that, hearing his son casually admit he didn't believe his sister would want to help him in a life-or-death end-of-the-world quest. Maybe he's finally realizing just how bad of a job he's done raising his kids...

In addition, in 1193, "Julia" says (panel 9) "So I can't exactly leave it all up to you when it's my future on the line, can I?"

Now, in 1276, "Julia" (right before exposing himself to be Eugene) says (panel 8) "Besides, it's like I said last time we talked..."
And then (after transforming back to Eugene) says (panel 10) "I can't leave it up to you when it's my future on the line."


Eugene himself states that it was him, all the times.



Edit to add: Personal suspicion is that Roy knows, and will say something to let us know that he knows in the next couple updates.

[Aquillion]

Next strip is when Serini tells Roy it's not behind any door.I'm baffled that anyone involved at any stage of this would even consider the possibility that it could be behind any door (except maybe Team Evil, and even they just don't have much choice because it's currently their only lead.)

Why on earth would it be behind one of the gates? What possible reason could Serini have to make it so any of the doors lead to the gate, when we already know she has an entire secret complex that none of the gates give normal access to?

Like, Roy shouldn't need Haley to explain this to him by now. The ball's not under any of the cups, it's hidden elsewhere. That should have been obvious as soon as they realized that the teleportation trick means the doors don't lead to the "real" complex.

[danielxcutter]

I'm baffled that anyone involved at any stage of this would even consider the possibility that it could be behind any door (except maybe Team Evil, and even they just don't have much choice because it's currently their only lead.)

Why on earth would it be behind one of the gates? What possible reason could Serini have to make it so any of the doors lead to the gate, when we already know she has an entire secret complex that none of the gates give normal access to?

Like, Roy shouldn't need Haley to explain this to him by now. The ball's not under any of the cups, it's hidden elsewhere. That should have been obvious as soon as they realized that the teleportation trick means the doors don't lead to the "real" complex.

That's the point - he's thinking about what Team Evil would do, and what "Julia" was saying was essentially "they probably wouldn't be searching the entire thing because the builders wouldn't have put the prize close to either end".

[137beth]

Hats off to those who called the Eugene reveal.

[The MunchKING]

Given the trouble Roy had getting people to see him when he was dead, I wonder why Bloodfeast can see Eugene at all.

I speculated before this isn't Eugine manifesting, it's him casting an illusion spell.


S/he only appeared after Belkar left and Roy was alone. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1191.html)

But Bloodfeast was still there. Did Eugine ever manifest when animals were awake and in the general area before?

[hamishspence]

I speculated before this isn't Eugine manifesting, it's him casting an illusion spell.




The last time he was overtly visible, to multiple people, disguised by illusion, was when he had to follow "the normal rules" because the sword had been destroyed:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

Since then, the sword's been fixed.

[Breccia]

was it EVER julia the times she's contacted him claiming she was using the link? now the speculation will go to that!

I don't even know if she's powerful enough to cast a spell to do that.

[Charity322]

Well now I feel dumb. Though I'm really disappointed this all hasn't been character growth for Julia.

And now I have to go back and read all the "obvious" clues I missed.

Speaking of which:




Define "obvious" please.


Powers &8^]

Don't worry. I am dumb too. I also thought that it was cool that Julia was getting involved. I'm kinda tired of Eugene hanging around lol.

Technically Belkar should be able to cast speak with animals, but he used wis as his dump stat lol.

[Rodin]

In addition, in 1193, "Julia" says (panel 9) "So I can't exactly leave it all up to you when it's my future on the line, can I?"

Now, in 1276, "Julia" (right before exposing himself to be Eugene) says (panel 8) "Besides, it's like I said last time we talked..."
And then (after transforming back to Eugene) says (panel 10) "I can't leave it up to you when it's my future on the line."


Eugene himself states that it was him, all the times.



Edit to add: Personal suspicion is that Roy knows, and will say something to let us know that he knows in the next couple updates.

I am loving that the previous conversations are obviously Eugene once you know that it's him. The clues aren't even subtle once you know, but the possibility never occurred to anyone. Or 99%+ I guess, in case anyone did guess it that early.

[Verdruss]

After re-reading the first conversation "Julia" and Roy had, especially the line about "dumping the blood oath" on his kids seems pretty selfreflective for Eugene (I'm convinced it's him there, too). Even though he says "he didn't have a choice", he didn't even need to bring up the point. The "dumping stuff on others" was just mentioned by Roy in passing and taking that keyword and saying something about "dumping the Blood Oath on his kids" feels a little bit remorseful or apologetic, although it could just be "I couldn't finish it myself".

All in all, I really liked the first conversation, especially with all the clues. "See, Dad wasn't THAT bad, right? Right?" Eugene actually cares deep inside about what Roy thinks of him, even if it is only for his own ego to see himself as good.

In hindsight, it would have been really surprising to see Julia contacting Roy about this Lich stuff. She seemed at least as selfabsorbed as Eugene, if not even more in the few strips we saw her and she's 16 17. She has the right to be selfabsorbed and care about other stuff.

It is interesting though why the Giant brings Eugene back into the story. And I don't think he will be an ally. I'm still on team "Eugene will work with the IFCC because all he cares about is destroying the Lich and maybe they can help there to further their plans" (if this team exists, if not, who wants to be captian?) I don't know 'how' exactly but that's my pitch.

[Kish]

It works for 'why it's working now' but not "Julia's" explanation that she will 'fix it later'. It's a blatant handwave he overlooked because he actually isn't interested in the theory beyond it's tactical, immediate usage.
Like Fyraltari I just shrugged at "I'll fix it later" and went "I hope you have a backup plan when you inevitably find out your new Sending spell is already as good as it's going to get."


People like Miko slaughtered entire tribes of goblinfolk (including innocent children) and have been for years before she was born, without losing their divine blessings,
Citation needed. Where is there a paladin who killed an innocent goblin and was shown to still have paladin powers after that?

(Now, Gin-Jun should also have been stripped of his powers long before he actually was if I was running things, but Rich is big on inaction (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0835.html) not counting against someone.)

[Blue Dragon]

As I said before, it was very obvious that thing claiming to be Julia was none other than Eugene this whole time.

Roy's line in the last panel of stripp 1192 now sounds like either foreshadowing or fridge brilliance.

[Provengreil]

Sure. Stat boosting items like a Periapt of Wisdom for example. Thing is, do we have anything to suggest that he's using those?

I feel pretty confident that he is not. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)

[Tzardok]

I feel pretty confident that he is not. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)

I mean, I generally agree with you, but a strip from six books, dozens of towns where you could buy stuff and like 7 character classes ago is not the best support for what items he's got today.

[Provengreil]

I mean, I generally agree with you, but a strip from six books, dozens of towns where you could buy stuff and like 7 character classes ago is not the best support for what items he's got today.

You say that, but The Giant has carefully shown the party acquiring every new magic item they get, sans consumables. Between Belkar not being shown getting an item, never casting any spells either from a list or a scroll, never shown preparing or discussing spells, there's nothing to suggest he's got one.

Conceivably he could have an 11, having had 10 before and added one by levelling as part of his development after the mark of justice fiasco, but there's no real evidence to that either.

[Keltest]

Regardless of whether the Giant shows every bit of shopping nuance, I think its safe to say that Belkar casting spells when he previously could not would be a significant enough change that he would feel the need to highlight how and why that has happened.

[Blue Dragon]

Hindsight is 20/20? No doubt when MitD's creature type is revealed, someone will say it's been obvious for a long time.



Unlike us, Roy doesn't get two weeks of free time to analyze everything between strips :smallbiggrin:

It has been some time since I solved the MitD's conundrum, though.

[Provengreil]

It works for 'why it's working now' but not "Julia's" explanation that she will 'fix it later'. It's a blatant handwave he overlooked because he actually isn't interested in the theory beyond it's tactical, immediate usage.

I thought the line was perfectly believable, that's exactly how teenagers act on school projects, and is also perfectly in keeping with a rank amateur who thinks they've got something huge but is ignoring a snag that experts will know is the fatal flaw. You see the same thing in students attending programming courses all the time.

[LuPuWei]

Ah, I've missed that crotchety old buzzard... :smallbiggrin:

[Laserlight]

It has been some time since I solved the MitD's conundrum, though.

I've been assuming MitD = The Dark One

[Blue Dragon]

I've been assuming MitD = The Dark One

When he talked about his father became clear to me¹ that he is a spawn of the Snarl.

¹ through idiosyncrasy

[Askthepizzaguy]

Speak with animals is a 1st level Ranger spell.

It has been established that Belkar's wisdom is dumped down so far he doesn't get his Ranger spells.

He can cast spells with Owl's Wisdom... but I guess he needs a scroll. I don't know how it works.

Maybe they're pulling out all the stops for the fight with Xykon and figure if they could buff Beskar and allow him to heal, then he could also cast speak with animals just because he loves Bloodfeast so much, even though it might not seem like it has battle utility, it is something he does all the time anyway and might want Bloodfeast to speak back.

They did learn he could cast spells wayyyy back in the day with Owl's Wisdom, a spell V knows.

[Askthepizzaguy]

New Theory!

Roy walks in and tells Serini, "I was just having a chat with my dead father. What? You can have a beholder for your child, but I can't have a Hamlet Complex?"

Two quatloos say he uses those exact words, ten says he'll say something along those lines. (And, yes, I know I already owe thirty quatloos I don't have, but I'm good for it.)

I wouldn't put it past the author or the character.

I think this was set up in advance that Roy wasn't interested in speaking to him, so I think Roy is supposed to not know it is Eugene here, otherwise he'd just point it out.

So I think your idea is plausible, and yet probably not true because of that indicator from Roy.

[Askthepizzaguy]

That's a really solid strip. You can also feel that Eugene is really, really grudging proud of Roy but would never ever admit it.

If there is character development as in, Roy proving to Eugene that he's as capable as Eugene... as opposed to suddenly being a kinder person, then I would point to that shock at Roy's capabilities and strategic mindset, as well as his increased level of hinted apologies throughout this conversation.

He has a lot of pride, but as Julia, he can just say the apology without worrying about his pride being wounded. So he says as Julia how sorry their father probably is.

That's not a line that occurs to him to say from Julia's point of view unless it's actually true from his own point of view.

So Eugene apologized and was also truthfully impressed by Roy here.

Maybe he won't ever stop being kind of a rotten dad, but those aren't nothing.

His character arc probably doesn't end as nice dad. He's still a jerk. But he's a jerk that realizes he's been a jerk and that his son is a better man than he is.

Which is a realistic arc even for a heel like Eugene.

Not saying that arc has completed or is the only explanation, but yeah. That's plausible and I would weigh in as it's likely to be the case. My two cents.

[Kish]

I've been assuming MitD = The Dark One


When he talked about his father became clear to me¹ that he is a spawn of the Snarl.

¹ through idiosyncrasy
Also Redcloak's niece.

[drazen]

Roy had a few minutes to pick up inconsistencies on the fly during an oral conversation, on his own. We had dozens of people going over the same few written lines over and over again for like a month, and we still couldn't reach a consensus.

I don't think it's very puzzling.

I have two issues with this.

One, the sheer number of clues vastly outnumbered anything Durkula slipped up on, which was basically two times he slipped up on his accent, and Roy might have been unconscious for the first one in the desert. But I can overlook most of them as an intensity of the moment kind of thing.

Two, and this gave away the farm to me immediately without any days-long analysis, Julia is acting wildly out of character in 1274 when arguing about "What if you're wrong?" Their sibling relationship is sarcastic dismissiveness, not intense argument. Julia is True Neutral and aloof, frankly that she is showing interest in helping at all is bizarre, and that she's that intense about it when nothing about her personality suggests she ever would be is even stranger.

I don't think he should suspect Eugene, but his "sister" is acting unusual and Roy has constantly had forces try to stymie him at every turn. He should at least be suspicious. I didn't originally think "Eugene" before reading the forums; I actually thought "that's the IFCC vessel," although Roy would not know that specifically. However, Durkon still has a second Sending left today; he could easily confirm that this is Julia with that and the reply. C'mon, Roy, you live in a world of magic, everything's suspect, think for five seconds, you're supposed to be the fighter with some brains. It is frustrating because I liked Roy a lot as a character, right up until suddenly he keeps getting fooled all the time in the final two books.

......

Also, I have long predicted - since the very first North Pole strip with the statue - that Kraagor's Tomb has NO visible entrance and the statue is a marker. But entering will involve short-range teleporting through several dozen feet of solid rock (and maybe some lead sheeting?), and there's no way to know it's there unless either (a) you already know or (b) you're an enraged Xykon who Meteor Swarms the statue (and thus the entrance below it) in a fit of pique when the regular dungeons turn out to be nothing-burgers.

[Tubercular Ox]

I speculated before this isn't Eugine manifesting, it's him casting an illusion spell.

I'm really digging Julia being an illusion and therefore visible to Bloodfeast, but now we have Eugene changing his illusion of Julia into an illusion of himself with the same color aura as when he's an oathspirit.

A part of me realizes this is a trivial detail that Rich will either explain or choose not to explain, but it's hard to resist thinking about.


It is interesting though why the Giant brings Eugene back into the story. And I don't think he will be an ally. I'm still on team "Eugene will work with the IFCC because all he cares about is destroying the Lich and maybe they can help there to further their plans" (if this team exists, if not, who wants to be captian?) I don't know 'how' exactly but that's my pitch.

OMG, can we have a "Eugene is working with Sabine" theory, too?

Seriously, though, I'm going to plug Fish's "imminent growth" theory here. Eugene is here to tidy up his part of Roy's story before the end.


His character arc probably doesn't end as nice dad. He's still a jerk. But he's a jerk that realizes he's been a jerk and that his son is a better man than he is.

Which is a realistic arc even for a heel like Eugene.

Not saying that arc has completed or is the only explanation, but yeah. That's plausible and I would weigh in as it's likely to be the case. My two cents.

Totally agree with you. I'm still looking for a short way of saying, "This is where a plot like the one we're seeing would go if it carried forward under its own momentum, but a plot is made of successive impetus so there's always time for a new direction," so we don't have to boilerplate all our predictions like this.


I am loving that the previous conversations are obviously Eugene once you know that it's him. The clues aren't even subtle once you know, but the possibility never occurred to anyone. Or 99%+ I guess, in case anyone did guess it that early.

So IMO this is the best kind of foreshadowing, with the very tippy top being when the audience remembers the clues at the reveal and doesn't have to re-read the story to feel the effect.

Rich spends a whole author's note in one of the books detailing his love of foreshadowing. He doesn't even talk about his own writing very much in that note, just, "We're talking about foreshadowing now." I'm happy he can do so well something he loves so much.


When he talked about his father became clear to me¹ that he is a spawn of the Snarl.

¹ through idiosyncrasy

But can you re-read the story with that as a solution and feel like Rich isn't even being subtle about it?

[JonahFalcon]

#1272: "Just because you're smart doesn't mean you know everything. Even about magic."

It's doubly funny and poignant when it's aimed at Eugene.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

In hindsight, a previous page-ending quip suddenly has a new meaning:

"oh there you are dad, I didn't see you hiding behind my sister's ENTIRE PERSONALITY like that."

I think Roy will figure it out or has already figured it out, thing is, Roy may realize he doesn’t get to be picky about the help he receives but plays along with the scheme as long as he’s getting actual help with the current problem at hand.

I feel like if some readers could figure it out, Roy who knows his sister better than any of us, will figure it out (at least eventually). If he already figured it out it means Roy is playing Eugene and it would feel good to get one over on him.

[Devils_Advocate]

So Good can't be cynical then?
Depends on what you mean by "cynical". Good isn't selfish, so for any value of "cynical" that inherently includes selfishness, yeah, it can't.

Someone who acts good when it serves his own selfish purposes and evil when it serves his own selfish purposes isn't flipping back and forth between good and evil. That's not how alignment works. It's a general thing, not what you're doing right now.

In principle, circumstances can get someone to act good indefinitely without changing alignment, because alignment is part of one's inner nature, not one's outer behavior. In practice, internal character traits and patterns of behavior are a two-way street.

:durkon: - Doin' good- sometimes even just seein' other people do good- feels good. Tha feelin' gets ta ye ev'ntually. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1151.html)


She was certainly a terrible example of LG, in fact so bad that she Fell, but I don't think that was so much for her failing to be Lawful as failing to be Good.
Eh, I see Miko's fall itself as her more clearly failing the Lawful part of her alignment.

Did Shojo deserve to be bisected less than everyone Miko has ever killed already without issue? Maybe.

Did Miko kill her own superior based on nothing but her own judgement? Definitely (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html).

She didn't have the authority to appoint herself judge, jury, and executioner. And Hinjo was right there telling her that, hey, that's actually a super bad idea.

Miko independently decided that the law and all of her long-standing commitments and obligations didn't matter and she was just gonna do what she deemed appropriate given the circumstances. That's, like, the definition of a Chaotic act.

Sure, she thought that she was following the will of the gods, but I seriously doubt that even Miko herself would agree that, as a general principle, thinking that you're following the will of the gods justifies murdering whoever you want to murder. She probably didn't recognize her own hypocrisy, but that seems typical of hypocrites, so nothing out of the ordinary there.


The Giant has carefully shown the party acquiring every new magic item they get, sans consumables.
Citation needed. Obviously "We haven't seen them get any items that we haven't seen them get" can't sanely be counted as evidence. Tautologous observation is tautologous.

[Bacon Elemental]

Eh, I see Miko's fall itself as her more clearly failing the Lawful part of her alignment.

Did Shojo deserve to be bisected less than everyone Miko has ever killed already without issue? Maybe.

Did Miko kill her own superior based on nothing but her own judgement? Definitely (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html).

She didn't have the authority to appoint herself judge, jury, and executioner. And Hinjo was right there telling her that, hey, that's actually a super bad idea.

Miko independently decided that the law and all of her long-standing commitments and obligations didn't matter and she was just gonna do what she deemed appropriate given the circumstances. That's, like, the definition of a Chaotic act.

Sure, she thought that she was following the will of the gods, but I seriously doubt that even Miko herself would agree that, as a general principle, thinking that you're following the will of the gods justifies murdering whoever you want to murder. She probably didn't recognize her own hypocrisy, but that seems typical of hypocrites, so nothing out of the ordinary there.


Citation needed. Obviously "We haven't seen them get any items that we haven't seen them get" can't sanely be counted as evidence. Tautologous observation is tautologous.


Counterpoint: One chaotic act is unlikely to instantly shift your alignment, and it's one EVIL act that instantly makes a paladin Fall after all.

Though bisecting your unarmed octogenarian liegelord while he's helpless before you while your junior paladin ally yells to stop because you've deluded yourself for dubious reasons that the man who adopted and brought you up is part of the imaginary conspiracy to aid Xykon you decided must exist for personal reasons... is definitely hitting both qualifications so I guess its a moot debate.


also damn, miko's law.

[Devils_Advocate]

Counterpoint: One chaotic act is unlikely to instantly shift your alignment, and it's one EVIL act that instantly makes a paladin Fall after all.
I didn't mean to imply that being Chaotic or even strongly Chaotic ipso facto makes an act a violation of a paladin's code of conduct nor that it removes Lawful alignment. Just that this particular flagrant code of conduct violation strikes me as more blatantly Chaotic than blatantly Evil.

Hmm, let me put it this way. I think that Miko killing Shojo was

1. very clearly a violation of her paladin oaths, and more clearly that than it was either Chaotic or Evil,
2. still quite clearly Chaotic, and more clearly Chaotic than Evil, and
3. of the three, least clearly Evil.

Point 3 because I'm taking her beliefs and intentions into account. While it's hard to reconcile Good alignment with recklessness, it's also hard to define recklessness objectively, and in any case non-Good does not equal Evil, what with Neutral also being a thing. It's way harder to reconcile Lawful alignment with probably violating dozens of specific officially-mandated standards of behavior you've sworn to obey, except in a "Characters can act against their alignments without changing alignment" sort of way.

But discussing exactly why Miko Fell is basically nitpicking. So long as we can all agree that she should have Fallen, that's not a grey area. (And anyone convinced that she shouldn't have has some very, uh, interesting ideas about the standards of behavior for paladins.)

[grandpheonix]

There's gotta be at least 19 people yelling into the screen "I told you so!"

Nice job showing this spell will last longer than a normal summon, considering the source of confirmation.

[ben-zayb]

I'm joining the "Roy knew all along" camp, if only because Roy has well-rounded enough mental stats to feign ignorance and to see through Eugene's disguise and slip-ups.

[Provengreil]

Citation needed. Obviously "We haven't seen them get any items that we haven't seen them get" can't sanely be counted as evidence. Tautologous observation is tautologous.

Point me to a single use of a magic item by the Order of the Stick in the last 1000 strips where the item is of narrative importance and wasn't shown being acquired.

[TRH]

I don't think Roy knows, because if he did he'd then want to know why Eugene is pulling this charade. That's a long way from obvious for us, much less Roy, so I can't imagine he's figured that much out on his own without saying anything yet.

[Peelee]

Point me to a single use of a magic item by the Order of the Stick in the last 1000 strips where the item is of narrative importance and wasn't shown being acquired.

Like the unspecified item of Feather Fall that saved Belkar's life, which was not shown being acquired until after it was used for aforementioned purpose (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html)?

I agree with you that it is highly unlikely and improbable that Belkar obtained a Wisdom increasing item, but it's not impossible.

[toapat]

We can correctly predict it was Eugene based on a few verbal clues, but MitD is still a mystery?

well, it helps that we know theres absolutely at least one characteristic of the MitD that we know of which is wrong for the book instance of the lore entry.

[tanonx]

As far as timing goes, this would be a perfect opportunity to reveal that Belkar has invested in understanding his companions... the animal ones, at least, which as we all know are the ones that really matter.

Especially if Roy worked it out on his own, using that last bit of conversation as a test. Eugene is Lawful Awful, and Lawful types in this world consistently fail to grasp how shell games work. Julia, on the other hand, operating under the established rules for Teenage Alignment Reversal, is being Chaotic, and would understand shell games. Roy, probably picking up on both the slip-ups in factual information and the slip-ups in veiled apologies and regret, will have everything he needs to assess the situation without talking to a lizard about it.

So, since it's not actually a plot-solving revelation at this stage, it's a fine set-up.

On the topic of Eugene and whether he's developed as an individual or not... well, I think it's not so black-and-white here. He figures he's going behind Roy's back, but he's not trying to browbeat him into agreement, and he shows a desire to respect some of Roy's boundaries when they've been clearly set, though he needs to be walloped over the head with them in order to notice. But that's the thing: deciding you want to be a better person doesn't make you any better at actually being one. It would be kind of weird if a few weeks of quiet contemplation completely broke all the lifelong habits that led to this point.

I think we could make a pretty good argument that he's closer to good than people usually assume, though, if we interpret things in the right light. Say, the various admissions of guilt for letting the Blood Oath get to this point, and that last line of his. Remember his previous appearance, where he was totally content to leave Roy to it because, since the world was ending either way, it wasn't his problem? There's some speculation that he's learned something to change that... but what if he's just come around to realize that it's his fault things have gotten this far, and he's obligated to try and do something about it? That the "something" is deceiving Roy in order to offer tactical advice, because it's more likely to work than trying to patch things up and get Roy to listen to him the normal way... still very obviously the wrong way to do things. But it's the toolset the old man's used to.

Of course, none of that rules out that Eugene is still up to his old tricks of self-centered manipulation. It's just considering that there's more to him as a character than that, and potential for another explanation.

Mostly, I'm just glad all these strips of discussions weren't simply meanderings on the situation at hand. That would've been rough.

[Jasdoif]

Point me to a single use of a magic item by the Order of the Stick in the last 1000 strips where the item is of narrative importance and wasn't shown being acquired.Like the unspecified item of Feather Fall that saved Belkar's life, s which was not shown being acquired until after it was used for aforementioned purpose (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1015.html)?

I agree with you the it is highly unlikely and improbable that Belkar obtained a Wisdom increasing item, but it's not impossible.If we're going down this route...this type of subject has come up before, regarding #806 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html).




Well, would you look at that. Another conveniently placed deus ex machina to balance the odds in favour of the bad guys.
How new and exciting.Don't be utterly ridiculous. The fact that Nale owns a relatively inexpensive magic item is not even remotely surprising or unexpected, given his level, wealth, and the fact that last time we saw him, he said he was going to shop for magic items. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) (Second to last panel.)

How exactly do you expect me to foreshadow each and every magic item that they have? Did you want me to dedicate an entire strip to Nale standing around saying, "Look at my new wand!"?

Come on. Surprises are not Deus (or Diabolous) Ex Machinas, they're surprises. Nothing more or less. If you want to know every little thing that is going to happen before it happens, go read another comic.
Here, the relevant strip would be #970 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html), and the following strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0971.html) even talks about the narrative usefulness of not revealing what all the wands are. And Belkar (or Elan) would be able to use a wand of speak with animals without a problem, as wands are much more accommodating than scrolls are.


I'd also question the narrative importance of the feather-falling. Belkar was still absent for almost the entirety of the Godsmoot, so it's not too different than if Belkar was simply absent in the first place; the item allowed for characterization and comedy, but had little real impact on the sequence of events...which is what you'd criticize a tool for. Similarly, I'm unconvinced that Roy knowing for certain Eugene is masquerading as Julia really affects Roy's or Eugene's options. Roy might get the idea to have Vaarsuvius contact Julia directly, maybe; but that seems unlikely to go anywhere unless Roy has changed his feelings about dumping this on her (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html) and/or thinks she has the ability to meaningfully contribute.

[Tubercular Ox]

I'd also question the narrative importance of the feather-falling. Belkar was still absent for almost the entirety of the Godsmoot, so it's not too different than if Belkar was simply absent in the first place; the item allowed for characterization and comedy, but had little real impact on the sequence of events...which is what you'd criticize a tool for. Similarly, I'm unconvinced that Roy knowing for certain Eugene is masquerading as Julia really affects Roy's or Eugene's options. Roy might get the idea to have Vaarsuvius contact Julia directly, maybe; but that seems unlikely to go anywhere unless Roy has changed his feelings about dumping this on her (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1193.html) and/or thinks she has the ability to meaningfully contribute.

In defense of Belkar having a feather fall item, he was the one character singled out as being weirdly clever with this adventuring stuff (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1182.html) and doing things on his own without telling others. I do not want to be responsible for supporting the Bloodfeast Tells All argument, but it's going to end up there, isn't it?

How about this? What if Eugene is in a position to urge Bloodfeast to do something useful in the future? Won't it have been wonderful to have established before that point that Bloodfeast can see Eugene?

[No good @ names]

Regardless of whether the Giant shows every bit of shopping nuance, I think its safe to say that Belkar casting spells when he previously could not would be a significant enough change that he would feel the need to highlight how and why that has happened.



I was wondering if there was thread on “throw-away jokes that would completely change the plot if they weren’t thrown away”. Owl’s Wisdom Belkar being the one that jumps to mind.

Edit:Comic 58 for reference (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)

[Ruck]

I don't think being self absorbed to the point of ignoring everyone else's needs and desires is mutually exclusive with the concept of a lawful alignment. *points at Miko*

He's following a clear and consistent code this entire time, it just happens to be one wherein he is a selfish jerk from the perspective of everyone else.


I don't think Miko is much of an example of the concept of a Lawful alignment.


Well, she is, and she isn't.

I went back and re-read this, and I don't actually know what my point was here. But specific to making a point re: Eugene... before her break from reality, Miko was someone who far more was committed to rules and order than Eugene, whether that's enforcing them as a paladin (even to the point of mattress tags (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0227.html)) or believing strongly in hierarchy and the Sapphire Guard's place on top of it ("You are all my prisoners, so you must all obey my orders (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html)").

I don't think Eugene follows a code. "Whatever I want to do to fulfill my own needs and desires" doesn't count as a "rigid internal code." And he certainly doesn't follow any external code and is not "someone for whom the idea of responsibility is central (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)": He abandoned his Blood Oath; he neglects his kids in favor of magical research (or just to drink at a bar)... Every time we've seen him take on a serious, even lifelong (or more) responsibility, he eventually abandons it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0495.html) to go back to doing the only thing he cares about. I don't see any way that pattern can be interpreted as Lawful.


She was certainly a terrible example of LG, in fact so bad that she Fell, but I don't think that was so much for her failing to be Lawful as failing to be Good.

I think it's both.

[Hopeless]

Wouldn't Redcloak's allies be able to detect Eugene?

[Ruck]

Wouldn't Redcloak's allies be able to detect Eugene?

Why's that?

[The MunchKING]

I'm really digging Julia being an illusion and therefore visible to Bloodfeast, but now we have Eugene changing his illusion of Julia into an illusion of himself with the same color aura as when he's an oathspirit.

A part of me realizes this is a trivial detail that Rich will either explain or choose not to explain, but it's hard to resist thinking about.

My idea is he can't resist projecting the illusion of himself to gloat about how his plans are all coming together. Either his Ego or his sense of the dramatic as an Illusionist, either way.

[drDunkel]

I told'nt you! Anyho, this raises a few questions regarding Eugene's reversed daddy kink, Bloodfeast's urge to talk to Blackwing, and how to do the impromptu defence of the altitude-deficient lady's budoir!

[Aquillion]

Eugene might be a selfish geezer, but he’s “just” a selfish geezer if that makes any sense. I don’t think he’s actually getting into Celestia, but it’s not like he’s going to the Nine Hells either.Case in point: He did agree with Roy's objection that the dwarves would be condemned to suffering due to not dying honorable deaths. He was only willing to suggest just letting the world get destroyed with the understanding that everyone (or at least everyone who hadn't earned an Evil afterlife) would be fine in the afterlife. This shows that he does draw at least some moral lines.

(His suggestions to resolve the dwarf problem were also absurd, but having low wisdom doesn't make you evil.)


He can cast spells with Owl's Wisdom... but I guess he needs a scroll. I don't know how it works.

When it comes to Owl's Wisdom, he's limited to scrolls because the Wisdom restriction applies to both preparing and casting:


To prepare or cast a spell, a ranger must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a ranger’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the ranger’s Wisdom modifier.
Spell preparation takes an hour (although in theory you can prepare a portion of your spells in less time), and Owl's Wisdom only lasts 1 minute / level. This makes it difficult for him to both prepare and cast spells.

Of course, a Periapt of Wisdom would solve this, but it's possible he doesn't like the feeling of gaining wisdom.

[andowero]

When he talked about his father became clear to me¹ that he is a spawn of the Snarl.

¹ through idiosyncrasy

He is a member of some known species. That doesn't fit the Snarl - Ultra Secret Even Highest Priests Are Not Told By Their Gods Entity.

[danielxcutter]

Case in point: He did agree with Roy's objection that the dwarves would be condemned to suffering due to not dying honorable deaths. He was only willing to suggest just letting the world get destroyed with the understanding that everyone (or at least everyone who hadn't earned an Evil afterlife) would be fine in the afterlife. This shows that he does draw at least some moral lines.

(His suggestions to resolve the dwarf problem were also absurd, but having low wisdom doesn't make you evil.)

I think that's less a Wisdom thing and as much an "I've been dead long enough to not really remember how much dying sucked, plus I died a lot anyways because I was an adventurer so I'm kinda desensitized to it" as much as it is an alignment thing. It's not like he was actually capable or willing to do that, either; speaking from experience, making suggestions isn't remotely the same thing as being able to go through with it.

Being Good isn't easy, but being non-Evil isn't that hard if you have the choice.

[Gensan]

I don't think Roy knows yet, but I think he will realize between this visit and the next.

Or something Eugene says during the next visit gives him away.

[JonahFalcon]

I don't think Roy knows yet, but I think he will realize between this visit and the next.

Or something Eugene says during the next visit gives him away.

I think he's known all along. Plenty of verbal clues there, too.

[Larsaan]

I think that's less a Wisdom thing and as much an "I've been dead long enough to not really remember how much dying sucked, plus I died a lot anyways because I was an adventurer so I'm kinda desensitized to it" as much as it is an alignment thing. It's not like he was actually capable or willing to do that, either; speaking from experience, making suggestions isn't remotely the same thing as being able to go through with it.

Being Good isn't easy, but being non-Evil isn't that hard if you have the choice.

I also don't think it's that crazy an idea in a setting with a confirmed afterlife, especially for someone who's had a lot of time to get used to that idea. Dying sucks, yes, but it's a suck that everyone has to go through at some point or another anyway. Hel(l?), we've already seen dwarves discussing potentially having to duel someone to death just to bump them off before old age gets them, so clearly they too are somewhat desensitized to the idea.

Which isn't to say it isn't macabre, but within the context of the setting... it's still technically Good, possibly even Lawful Good.

[Fish]

With the usual caveats about the unreliability of prediction and respect for Rich’s autonomy and ability to craft whatever story he likes: I don’t believe Roy knows, nor do I believe it is necessary for him to find out. I think Eugene is going to undergo character growth, of which Roy will not be aware. Roy will continue to think this is Julia and take the conversations on those terms, even as Eugene becomes a better person — and as Eugene is unable to reap the benefits of reconciliation. He promised to avoid his family in Celestia, which means he cannot even apologize to them for all the faults he can now admit to. Actually becoming Lawful Good will require Eugene to make a personal sacrifice that precludes him from enjoying his lawful goodness. Celestia would give him a hollow victory: enjoyment of the afterlife (including the tavern where Eugene always is right about every argument) without the one thing that he realizes truly matters to him — his family.

Right now, Eugene easily promised to stay away. He wouldn’t miss them. He needs to grow so he does miss them. That would be the most poignant way for Eugene’s arc to end, in my opinion.

[sonicsuns]

(I can't believe it took me this long to join the forums...)

I'm calling it: Roy has already figured out that "Julia" is Eugene and he's just playing along for some reason.

In Panel 4, he acts as if he's actually behind a specific door in Monster Hollow, so that once the villains enter that door they'll end up finding "the prize". But he knows full well that's not true! Every door is a decoy thanks to the swap-overs, and the villains probably won't figure that out until they've reached the final door. But he never mentions this to Julia.

His earlier bit about watching him audition for Fighter College may have been a deliberate test. Maybe Julia wasn't there and he knows that she remembers not being there, because they've talked about this at some point in the past. But Eugene wasn't there and also Eugene has no idea whether Julia was there or not, so if Roy says "you were there" to Julia then a real Julia will say "No I wasn't" but a fake Julia will say "Oh, uh..." and that was the final clue that convinced Roy of the truth.

I'm not sure what his long-term plan is; why doesn't he tell Eugene to just buzz off? I guess maybe he thinks Eugene will let info slip to the enemy somehow, so he's giving some real info to convince whoever's listening that this is a real conversation, while keeping his most important cards close to the chest. Then at some critical moment he'll tell Eugene an absolute lie, knowing that the enemy will believe it.

Why would Eugene tell the villains anything, you ask? Doesn't he want to kill Xykon too? Maybe the concern is about magical eavesdropping that Eugene might not even be aware of. Or maybe there's another angle I haven't considered.

[Hopeless]

Why's that?

Redcloak's allies are running through a wide variety of spells and spell-like effects checking through each and every one of those doors.

Sooner or later they are going to reach where Eugene is and unlike Redcloak should be able to detect his presence.
Given what Eugene knows if they do catch him how long before he spills everything he knows whether wittingly or not?

And how will the Order react if Xykon is persuaded to broadcast he has captured Eugene would Eugene try that Julia disguise again?

How wil Eugene react to Redcloak's allies?

They're Lawful aligned and Eugene might annoy them given his personality quirks.

Is this a possiblity?

[sonicsuns]

this gave away the farm to me immediately without any days-long analysis, Julia is acting wildly out of character in 1274 when arguing about "What if you're wrong?" Their sibling relationship is sarcastic dismissiveness, not intense argument. Julia is True Neutral and aloof, frankly that she is showing interest in helping at all is bizarre, and that she's that intense about it when nothing about her personality suggests she ever would be is even stranger.

I just took it as "Julia is actually less neutral than she seems", which makes sense. There are lots of aloof people IRL who turn out to actually care about stuff once the stakes are high enough.


However, Durkon still has a second Sending left today; he could easily confirm that this is Julia with that and the reply. C'mon, Roy, you live in a world of magic, everything's suspect, think for five seconds, you're supposed to be the fighter with some brains. It is frustrating because I liked Roy a lot as a character, right up until suddenly he keeps getting fooled all the time in the final two books.

Per my previous comment, I don't think Roy is getting fooled. He's just pretending to be fooled as part of a larger plan.

He won't ask Durkon to check in with Julia because he's already convinced that this isn't the real Julia. No need to waste a spell slot.

This whole thing is character growth for Roy. He's been fooled a few times before, but now he's gotten wise to that trick and he won't be fooled again. The Durkon vampire arc in particular taught him to look out for imposters.

[Ruck]

Redcloak's allies are running through a wide variety of spells and spell-like effects checking through each and every one of those doors.

Sooner or later they are going to reach where Eugene is and unlike Redcloak should be able to detect his presence.

Okay, again, why is that?

-They would have to figure out the swap-overs to "reach where Eugene is";
-That's not really where Eugene is, since he's dead and only manifests to Roy;
-I see nothing to support the "should" here, to the extent such a thing is possible.

Now, Bloodfeast apparently seeing Eugene throws a couple of things into question for me, but overall, this theory seems built on a series of assumptions that I don't see reason to assume.


In Panel 4, he acts as if he's actually behind a specific door in Monster Hollow, so that once the villains enter that door they'll end up finding "the prize". But he knows full well that's not true! Every door is a decoy thanks to the swap-overs, and the villains probably won't figure that out until they've reached the final door. But he never mentions this to Julia.

I'm glad you brought this up, because I definitely found it odd. I just don't know what to make of it. Your theory-- in conjunction with your hypothesis about Roy's comments about Fighter School that I didn't include here-- is at least compelling enough not to dismiss,


Right now, Eugene easily promised to stay away. He wouldn’t miss them. He needs to grow so he does miss them. That would be the most poignant way for Eugene’s arc to end, in my opinion.

While I still don't think Eugene will get into Celestia, I do think it would be darkly funny, and an appropriate end for him, if he gets in, announces he's going to visit the other Greenhilts, and the devas (who are aware of his promise somehow; it's not a stretch that they would be) immediately give him the boot to another afterlife.

"Eugene Greenhilt was the same in death as in life: immediately breaking his promises the moment it was convenient for his desires."

[Keltest]

You know, people rag on Eugene for making the promise, but it's not like any of his family ever visited him either. Including the ones who purportedly loved him despite his best efforts. We know they can, because Roy did it, so is it any wonder he isn't interested in them? By all appearances they aren't interested in him.

[Ruck]

You know, people rag on Eugene for making the promise, but it's not like any of his family ever visited him either. Including the ones who purportedly loved him despite his best efforts. We know they can, because Roy did it, so is it any wonder he isn't interested in them? By all appearances they aren't interested in him.

Which do you think came first? Because I'm pretty sure it was Eugene's active and open dismissal of and disdain for his family in life that has led to nobody wanting to visit him in the afterlife. Unless you are trying to argue that Eugene should feel justified in that disdain because their not visiting him proves he was right to disregard them so.

[JT]

I think he's known all along. Plenty of verbal clues there, too.

He almost certainly hasn't known all along. (I do think he now knows - or at least, has concluded and is correct - that "Julia" is Eugene.)

In #1201 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1201.html), after having the first conversation with "Julia" and then deciding how they're gonna get to Monster Hollow, Roy speaks with Andi about how long the ship and crew should stick around (just one hour, in case Elan forgets his pants).
After hearing that the plan is to cast Sending to Andi so the ship can return, if they're successful, Andi asks in panel 5 what will happen if the casters don't, you know, survive the battle.

Roy's answer (also panel 5) is that "if a teenage girl with green streaks in her hair" -- Julia -- shows up, Andi should listen to what she has to say. Roy does not say that an apparition of a girl would show up (which would be silly anyway, since they dock in Cliffport), nor did he say that an apparition of his father would appear with info.
Clearly, at that point in time, Roy assumed that Julia would be checking in on him periodically, and he could tell her to go down to the docks and relay a message to Andi.

[tanonx]

Roy's answer (also panel 5) is that "if a teenage girl with green streaks in her hair" -- Julia -- shows up, Andi should listen to what she has to say. Roy does not say that an apparition of a girl would show up (which would be silly anyway, since they dock in Cliffport), nor did he say that an apparition of his father would appear with info.
Clearly, at that point in time, Roy assumed that Julia would be checking in on him periodically, and he could tell her to go down to the docks and relay a message to Andi.

Since we're getting into exact words and hidden meanings anyhow... he also never says she'll have a message from him, or tell them where to make a pickup. It seems like a better way to get them in touch with another Greenhilt. Which would make sense if Roy is considering who will and won't survive the next fight in more general terms.

But mostly, there's no reason I know of he'd expect his father to be able to contact the crew. Julia, on the other hand, is surrounded by magic, and plenty familiar with Sendings.

[JT]

Since we're getting into exact words and hidden meanings anyhow... he also never says she'll have a message from him, or tell them where to make a pickup. It seems like a better way to get them in touch with another Greenhilt. Which would make sense if Roy is considering who will and won't survive the next fight in more general terms.

But mostly, there's no reason I know of he'd expect his father to be able to contact the crew. Julia, on the other hand, is surrounded by magic, and plenty familiar with Sendings.

Yup. In fact, Eugene told Roy that the sword was essential for the communication (which is why he never manifested while the sword was broken). This might not be true, but Roy has no reason to disbelieve it, so has no reason to expect that Eugene could contact the crew. And with that limitation, he has no reason to believe that Eugene could relay a message from Roy to Julia, and have her carry it to Andi.

(Remember that this is a backup plan, in case Durkon and V are both incapacitated or worse as a result of the battle... so no Sending is available.)

[brian 333]

The Giant is on record saying that in the afterlife one cannot grow or change. This seems important to this topic because several posters appear to hold out hopes that Eugene will.

One of our plant-based posters could probably find the exact quote.

[Tzardok]

The Giant also said that Eugene's cloud realm is not the afterlife proper, which is why Roy could remember what happened there. Eugene can theoretically change. Wether he will... *shrug*

[The MunchKING]

Roy's answer (also panel 5) is that "if a teenage girl with green streaks in her hair" -- Julia -- shows up, Andi should listen to what she has to say. Roy does not say that an apparition of a girl would show up (which would be silly anyway, since they dock in Cliffport), nor did he say that an apparition of his father would appear with info.
Clearly, at that point in time, Roy assumed that Julia would be checking in on him periodically, and he could tell her to go down to the docks and relay a message to Andi.

I thought the implication was if Roy died at the North Pole, but the rest of his team won the day thanks to his heroic sacrifice or whatever, he'd appear to Julia, like a Blood Oath spirit, to tell her to get an airship to save his friends.

EDIT: But looking back at that thread she only says "if your casters don't make it" rather than "if some of you don't make it", like I thought. So, Julia bugging Roy on the regular seems to be a more reasonable reading of it.

[a_flemish_guy]

I present a "you were right" trophy to the people who thought it was eugene and a "it kind of made sense at the time and I can see where you're coming from"-trophy to the people who thought it was sabine

as for me, I'm dissapointed, I was really engaged into the development of greenhilt's bloodoath coordination and I really believed that julia was attempting to repair the rifts between her and her brother and roy was just being himself untill later he realised what's going one and then attempts to make it good to her (or there would be a gondor calls for aid moment where julia does an action that helps everyone despite roy not taking her seriously previously)

[Precure]

If Roy really know the truth, he had to learn it during the second visit, because at the end of the first one he was genuinely trying to tell Julia about their father's promise.

[Kish]

I don't think Julia really has rifts she needs to sort out with Roy. She has a normal, loving but sometimes adversarial sibling relationship. It's...actually kind of remarkable that their relationship is as good as it is, considering their class conflicts followed by Roy has presumably getting legal custody of Julia when Eugene died.

[Larsaan]

The Giant is on record saying that in the afterlife one cannot grow or change. This seems important to this topic because several posters appear to hold out hopes that Eugene will.

One of our plant-based posters could probably find the exact quote.

Seems like a weird rule to set when the LG afterlife is structured around getting bored of earthly desires and eventually striving towards enlightenment. If that's not growth or change, what is?

[brian 333]

Seems like a weird rule to set when the LG afterlife is structured around getting bored of earthly desires and eventually striving towards enlightenment. If that's not growth or change, what is?

It is shedding the things one had in life to become a perfect incarnation of the afterlife. Going up Mount Celestia is done by getting rid of everything that makes one unique. It is un-learning.

[Peelee]

The Giant also said that Eugene's cloud realm is not the afterlife proper

Did he? I remember him saying Eugene's cloud is not Celestia. Can you find the quote where he says its not the afterlife?

[Tzardok]

Did he? I remember him saying Eugene's cloud is not Celestia. Can you find the quote where he says its not the afterlife?

Isn't that the same thing?

[KorvinStarmast]

Isn't that the same thing? Not really. It (the cloud place) is like being in the parking lot outside of the grocery store, but not in the store (Celestia) itself. Gene relates to Roy that he can't get in due to the blood oath.
Stuck in the Parking lot, as it were, unable to get into the store until {something} happens.

[Shining Wrath]

Serini already told them it's not behind any of the doors. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1258.html)


I'm pretty sure she already did, a while ago. Then bopped Darken when he tried to speculate on where it was.

What Serini told them is that it's not protected by the cross-over. That doesn't mean it's not behind a door, just that Serini is not relying on what is to her an obvious trick.

Now, why doesn't Roy realize that Team Evil is going to exhaust all the doors and still not have found the Gate? He was there when Serini bonked Durkon, and there was discussion of the cross-over trick.

So ... if, hypothetically, the Gate is behind one of the doors, but not protected *only* by the crossover, what is protecting it? My guess is that Team Evil will exhaust all the gates, then figure out the cross-over, then start exploring anew, and find that Biggest Baddest Bunch of Monsters is behind only one cross-over.

[brian 333]

Isn't that the same thing?

Eugene is dead. His current status is 'not alive, not corporeal.' His current home plane is 'outside the prime material.'

He is in the afterlife. The part that sucks, obviously, but still, the afterlife.

[Ruck]

Eugene is dead. His current status is 'not alive, not corporeal.' His current home plane is 'outside the prime material.'

He is in the afterlife. The part that sucks, obviously, but still, the afterlife.

Yeah, I was gonna say something like this. He's dead, so pretty much definitionally, he's in the afterlife.

The waiting room is still part of the doctor's office.

[hamishspence]

Eugene is dead. His current status is 'not alive, not corporeal.' His current home plane is 'outside the prime material.'

He is in the afterlife. The part that sucks, obviously, but still, the afterlife.

Some people's afterlives come with "home plane - the prime material" - the souls of worshippers of Fharlanghn and Vecna for example, in the Greyhawk-verse, don't migrate to anywhere when their bodies die, but remain in places their deities are strongly associated with. Those of Fharlanghn, for example, might congregate at crossroads, for he is the deity of travel.

[Tubercular Ox]

Biggest Baddest Bunch of Monsters is behind only one cross-over.

Now, see, my first impression is that Backstage was one big super-dungeon, probably because of this comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1237.html), but you've opened my eyes. If the first conclusion is that "all" of the cross-overs go to the same superdungeon, do you stop looking?

I'm still worried it's an unacceptable risk that someone would find the perfect crossover on the first go. But maybe the perfect crossover can only be reached from backstage so you lose interest in finding it without risking someone finding it from the front. Making every crossover different enough to require disarming a different way could really kill the desire to disarm every crossover from the wrong side. Unless you have a Quinton who's mapping things precisely and the extra tunnel sticks out.

It would be worth the effort of being Lawful Good just so I can have an excuse for not figuring stuff like this out.

[Tzardok]

Eugene is dead. His current status is 'not alive, not corporeal.' His current home plane is 'outside the prime material.'

He is in the afterlife. The part that sucks, obviously, but still, the afterlife.


Yeah, I was gonna say something like this. He's dead, so pretty much definitionally, he's in the afterlife.

The waiting room is still part of the doctor's office.

Not really. If everyone who was dead automatically was in the afterlife, being a ghost would be an afterlife. An afterlife is the place that your soul spends (its slice of) eternity; that doesn't include transitionary areas where souls aren't meant to linger. It's pretty common in mythology (I can't name examples for obvious reasons) for a judgment or waiting area to be located between the mortal world and and the afterlife proper. If we continue Korvin's analogy:


Not really. It (the cloud place) is like being in the parking lot outside of the grocery store, but not in the store (Celestia) itself. Gene relates to Roy that he can't get in due to the blood oath.
Stuck in the Parking lot, as it were, unable to get into the store until {something} happens.

then the afterlife is the interior of buildings, and Eugene is stuck on the streets. See also Roy being able to remember what happened in the clouds, but not what happened in Celestia, when someone who's resurected doesn't remember what happened in the afterlife. Ergo, cloud space ≠ afterlife.

[littlebum2002]

An afterlife is the place that your soul spends (its slice of) eternity;

What if -hear me out- the afterlife is the place you go after your life ends?

[Peelee]

If everyone who was dead automatically was in the afterlife

Nobody made this claim, though. Brian333 was even quite specific as Eugene being incorporeal and having a home plane not be the material plane.

[Psyren]

The Giant is on record saying that in the afterlife one cannot grow or change. This seems important to this topic because several posters appear to hold out hopes that Eugene will.

One of our plant-based posters could probably find the exact quote.


Yeah, I was gonna say something like this. He's dead, so pretty much definitionally, he's in the afterlife.

The waiting room is still part of the doctor's office.

I'd say there are two options:

1) Eugene is currently in an afterlife. He's not in HIS afterlife. Therefore, his afterlife might still change based on his actions, many of which have at the very least been pretty antithetical to Law.

2) Nothing he does after dying matters - only his actions while alive count.

I personally find the latter dubious given the amount of agency/impact oathspirits (especially spellcasting ones?) appear to be able to have on the living world, but it's still a possibility.

[dancrilis]

What if -hear me out- the afterlife is the place you go after your life ends?

Not according to Eugene, panel 2 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html).

This may explain why he can do things like Detect Scrying (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html), and cover himself with an illusion (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1276.html), and presumedly use whatever spell he had that allowed him to foreshadow the future (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html).

The exact limits of what Eugene can and cannot do I don't think have been clarified - but he might be able to get away with more then if he has passed through the gates.

[Tzardok]

What if -hear me out- the afterlife is the place you go after your life ends?

Exactly. It's the place you go after your life ends. Nobody goes to cloudy realm, everybody goes through it. It is, to be pithy, a between, not a place.

Edit: Besides, etymologically speaking, afterlife is the life that comes after death, not what happens after life.


Nobody made this claim, though. Brian333 was even quite specific as Eugene being incorporeal and having a home plane not be the material plane.

Ruck did. He said: "He's dead, so pretty much definitionally, he's in the afterlife."