MitD XVIII: It's utterly unreasonable to expect us to have been paying any attention

[Grey_Wolf_c]

WARNING: This Thread WILL contain spoilers.
Smallprint: If you are unwilling to hear what MitD might be, or segments from the published books (specially SoD) then this is not a thread for you.
Everyone else: don't bother spoilering or hiding that stuff in this thread. It is what we are here for

ATTENTION: Newcomers, please read:
This thread has, over the last 500+ pages, accumulated a lot of knowledge about MitD. However, you don't need to read the whole thread (and the previous ones) to get up to speed. So long as you are reasonably familiar with these first five posts, you can jump right in, with no need to read more than the last few pages. On the other hand, please don't be surprised if your insight has been proposed before.


For relevant MitD canon and in-depth analysis of central MitD scenes, check section 1
For specific characteristics of MitD, check section 2
To see all suggestions so far (and particularly, if your idea has been mentioned before), check section 3
Thread rules and FAQ, check section 4

If you want to propose a new creature, consider using the following question template:

1) How did punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt [insert suggestion here]?
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize [insert suggestion here]?
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing [insert suggestion here]?
5) How did [insert suggestion here] teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?


Section 1: General Information
Section 1a: Directly from Rich
Rich's Words on MitD
I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now

The reveal is a crucial part of the story and it will happen when it's time for it to happen.

So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]I now know exactly when and why the monster will reveal itself, too ... don't expect it any time soon, though. Sorry. There's a lot of story left, and that little tidbit will need to wait to close to the end.
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

A lot of people have asked me whether there is any actual answer to the mystery of the Monster in the Darkness that could possibly satisfy after so many years of wondering and guessing and weighing characteristics against existing monsters and otherwise just generally thinking about it.
The answer to that question is yes. Yes, there is.

The Monster in the Darkness plays an important role in this scene [Tower scene - ed] -- perhaps the first time it has ever done so. Prior to this, the creature existed mostly as comedy relief for Xykon's team. Sure, Redcloak and Xykon talked about how powerful they thought it was, but we never actually got to see it in action. Its childlike persona had likely led many readers to feel that he wasn't a real threat... and that needed to change. And so, I had the opportunity for the monster to display a little of its power without giving too much away by encountering Miko.

This was specifically necessary because of the scene I had planned for later, when Haley and Belkar need to retrieve Roy's dead body from the monster's tea party. I wanted there to be no doubt that the monster was a real threat when they encountered it. Moreover I wanted to explore the idea that the monster itself isn't really aware of all its capabilities. It tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails. It doesn't know it can cause an earthquake by stomping until a demon roach tells it so.


[Question: has anyone out there made a guess or come to the wrong conclusion but made you think ‘that’s better than what it really is, even for a second?]
No, because if he was something else then it wouldn’t fit everything that is going to happen and has already happened. It’s not a guessing game I added to the strip just for extracurricular fun and games, it’s part of the story. There’s no answer that’s better than what he is because everything written for the last 15 years has been written with that answer in mind.


Notes:
Strip 100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) came out Sep 2, 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
"It is possible to guess." Any number of people have jumped to the conclusion that it means that MitD must be a famous or iconic creature. The phrase warrants no such conclusion. Instead, all it says is that MitD exists listed somewhere outside OotS - nothing more and nothing less. As such, the iconic status of an idea, or lack thereof, is of no weight whatsoever when considering its fitness as MitD's species.
"someone will figure it out": related to the above, it specifies that what Rich means by "guess" is not "throwing darts while blindfolded" type of guess, but a rational, follow the clues to a conclusion process. "A potted plant that was eaten and spat out by the Snarl, giving it eyes, a horrible appearance, great strength and the ability to teleport, and look, it can be guessed- I just did!" might fit the first meaning, but not the second.

Rich's Words on Fidelity to D&D Rules
I barely even reference the 3.5 rules anymore, using them just to determine what sort of spells or class abilities a character might have and then ignoring them the rest of the time.

Notes:

Rich has made mistakes with the powers a character can have (Tsukiko's extra school), but has admitted they are mistakes. The fact he admits it is one, in addition to this quote, indicates that Rich does not routinely give characters powers they wouldn't normally have. In addition, MitD's guessing game would require him to be more careful, not less, about what abilities and powers it displays, such as immunity to mind control.

Published Canon
Stereotyped Big Game Hunters, when they capture MitD:
Monocle: "My gods, is it talking? In Common, no less!"
Jenkins: "Unbelievable!"
Monocle: "Well, that will surely fetch a fine price."
Jenkins: "Indeed!"
Monocle: "I tell you, Jenkins, I never expected to see one of these in this part of the world."
Jenkins: "Quite!"
Monocle: "One-in-a-lifetime catch, Jenkins[...]"
Circus, when the public looks upon MitD:

Human male: "Oh my gods..."
Human Male: "It's horrible!"
Human Female: "And yet... beautiful!"
Human Female Child: "Mommy, I feel funny looking at it"
Human Male: "Blerrch!" (throwing up)
Human Male in wizard's clothing: "I've never seen anything like it!" :smallconfused:
Goblin Female Child: "Wooooooo!"
Goblin Male Child: "YEAH!"
Rest of the public:
3 Human Males, 2 Human Females and 1 Halfling Male look: :smalleek:
1 Human Male has "queasy" mouth, as if about to throw up
1 Human Male has closed his eyes and is attempting to cover them with his hands
2 Goblin Males (RightEye and his oldest son) are unimpressed

RedCloak, admitting he knows what MitD is:


I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted.

Xykon's first look at MitD:

:xykon: "[I]Whoa! You sure are one ugly sumbitch, aren't you?"

Xykon's wording of the mind-controlling spell on MitD:

:xykon: "And if Redcloak ever betrays me, you will devour him whole and spit out that gold amulet he wears."

Nature of the darkness around MitD:

Xykon: Did you see him yet?
RedCloak: He's permanently shrouded in magical darkness. How exactly was I supposed to "see him yet"?

MitD enjoying the sunshine:

MitD: Oh man, I love the jungle! The sun, the blue skies, the fresh air—


Section 1b: The Circus SceneThe circus scene is, as befits the most MitD-centric moment in the comic, full of clues:
The public's reactions: note they are not fear, but disgust. Vomiting, queasy faces and exclamations of ugliness do not match reactions of people scared (that would be brown pants, yellow pools under the stands, and attempts to run away).
MitD's Actions: none. it is quite explicitly told he is doing nothing. Activated abilities thus are unlikely to explain this scene
Recognition: The show depends on MitD not being recognisable (billed as such), and this aspect reinforced with the guy in robes saying he's never seen anything like MitD before.
Section 1c: The Escape
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html)
It can't be dimension door or blink because those spells have pityable ranges (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html).
Teleport and Greater Teleport in the standard rules require the caster to go along with the other subjects of the spell. We have seen teleport work this way in OOTS here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html), and also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0571.html) we get to see two teleports work this way. In fact there, there are two casters, presumably one divine (raise dead) and one arcane (teleport). Then Soul Spliced V casts (presumably) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) and travels along too (though we don't actually see the spell cast, just the resultant "pop"). Finally when we see Epic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), even then the caster (and his spliced spirits) go along for the ride. So although it doesn't absolutely prove that Rich insists the caster always goes along when they Teleport, it really seems to suggest that is the way it works in OOTS, which is the standard D&D rules. Teleport also requires the caster to know the destination, although when that is not the case, a lucky (i.e. plot-induced) roll in the missed teleportation table could have delivered V & O-Chul to the right place anyway.
It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) that is not present on either, but MitD himself may have been hit by the stray (Quickened) Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) cast by V during the preceding battle.
In the Scruf and Tumble short story (in GDGU), the carbuncle befriended by Mr. Scruffy teleported (likely with a SU-type Dimension Door (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/carbuncle/)) him without going along, suggesting that at least Dimension Door in OotS doesn't require the caster to go along
Alternatively, the Forbiddance spell provides a similar effect to that of dimension lock without the visual component, but would require it to be awkwardly placed to only cover MitD's box, since it doesn't hurt V - this would be a very strange use of a spell designed to cover a whole area from teleport. The chance of MitD remembering the password are slight, too, which would mean he'd be damaged every time he entered the box.
Standard teleporting rules do require the caster to touch any other travelers, but the rule is not observed in OotS (see any of the prior examples)
MitD could have the ability to grant Greater Teleport or its equivalent to its target, rather than cast it himself, thus leading to V or O-Chul casting it to get them out of there (although O-Chul wouldn't know where to take them anymore than MitD would, and it seems unlikely MitD would target V with that ability)
Standard 3.5 edition D&D rules say Plane Shift can be cast so that the caster does not travel along for the ride. However it also says you MUST go to another plane, not another place on the same plane and that "precise accuracy as to a particular arrival point on the intended plane is nigh impossible". Also that "creatures must find their own way back". O-Chul and V make no mention of "getting back" and have no apparent means to plane shift. Note that in most occasions plane shift has been depicted with a kind of "window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)" opening, but not always (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html). It has been suggested that MitD could have plane-shifted them to a good plane (e.g. Souther Gods' domain), and then where teleported back by an agent of good.
Wish and the psionic ability "reality revision" are stated as being able to "Transport Travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions".
Miracle can "Move you and your allies along with your and their gear from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error".
Limited Wish doesn't say anything about travelling or transportation explicitly.
The Epic Spell "Dreamscape" could be interpreted as providing the "Escape" capabilitiy, (see Dream Larva)
Psionics has equivalent teleportation abilities to all of the above. DaggerPen compiled a fairly complete list here.
Creatures who have the ability might have captured Ganonron after he was expelled from V, and forced him to cast the teleport (other than being theoretically possible, no monster has been found capable of doing so other than the Parshendi that came out in 2014, and there is no evidence that this scenario took place)
Selecting the Destination: Wish and Miracle have no issues with the destination of the escape. Teleport and Greater Teleport, on the other hand, do not easily explain how MitD was able to send them to a place he does not know about (teleport can only target places, not individuals). Possibilities:
MitD also used some form of Trace Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/traceTeleport.htm) to send them to where V came from
MitD "rolled" on the Mishap table due to False destination, and got 'Similar Area', which placed them in the right place
MitD possesses thought reading of some kind, and picked the destination from V's mind


Section 1d: The Tower Scene
Link to the scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html)
It is likely that Rich bent the rules of D&D to show the point about MitD being both amazingly strong and a credible threat to the OotS. Nevertheless, Nerdanel has done an analysis of the feats and strength necessary for the scene to work in accordance to the rules. Find the relevant posts here, here and here.

Section 1e: MitD's Alignment
The best that can be said about MitD's species' alignment is that it is unlikely to be Good, since RedCloak would not have recruited a Good creature to protect the goblin village given his rather dim views on the Good alignment.

This, however, is a very weak argument, since it can be argued that MitD was not, at the time, Good. Also, consider that MitD's alignment and his species' need not match (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html). As such, knowing MitD's actual alignment brings us no closer to knowing his species' alignment and, thus, for the purposes of this thread, this is a barren path of inquiry.

The only exception to this is alignment when applied to morality plane denizens (i.e. angels, demons, etc.). Rich commented on this topic in DStP:

It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.


The entire point of their organization is to blur the lines between the the three fiendish races (demon, daemon, devil) and depict cooperation where normally one would expect backbiting and betrayal. So here, we have a slightly less neutral daemon, a slightly more chaotic devil, and a slightly more lawful demon (one who went to college with devils, even).

From the above, we know that angels and demons (unlike other outsiders) are embodiments of their own morality planes. Yes, they can change their alignment, but only slightly, and when doing so it serves the purposes of their other alignment. And even then, it is a very rare and line-pushing experiment. The embodiments of the morality planes are as follows:


Lawful Evil: Baatezu/DevilsLawful Neutral: Formians, Inevitables, ModronsLawful Good: Archons
Neutral Evil: Yugoloths/DaemonsTrue Neutral: RilmaniNeutral Good: Guardinals
Chaotic Evil: Tanar'ri/DemonsChaotic Neutral: SlaadiChaotic Good: Eladrin


Since MitD has performed both good and evil acts, it is very unlikely he is an embodiment of either Good or Evil.
Section 1f: MitD's ScoresIt has proven almost impossible to nail down what MitD's scores might be. The general agreement is that his strength must be past 30, his INT must be high (to account for his ability to learn quickly), his Wisdom be low (to account with his innocence and bad judgement) and his Charisma high (to account for the "beautiful" comment).

However, it is equally likely that he will be a near-epic creature, and as such his scores are going to be all-around high (by human standards).
Section 1g: (Not) Seeing the Gates
MitD's inability to "see" the gates is felt by several participants to be a "clue" about MitD (rather than the alternative possibility, Rule of Funny). However, no explanation that ties MitD's species to the gates has been forthcoming, except when contemplating the idea of MitD being part of the Snarl.

Alternatively, it has been proposed that since the demiplane in which the Snarl is trapped is designed to null divine magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), and it is third-handedly established in SoD that the gods have difficulty in detecting the rifts, there might be some connection between MitD and the gods that makes him, too, unaware of the rift. Note, however, that MitD has an issue seeing the definitely-not-Snarl-related gate that Xykon installed to stop his zombies from walking into and being destroyed by the rift, so this connection is quite far-fetched.

Finally, it must be pointed out that MitD doesn't have a problem actually seeing the physical object that is the gate. Instead, his words seem to suggest that he doesn't know it is one. It has been suggested this might be because he thinks the only definition of "gate" is the portal that opens when the spell gate is cast. If he has been told that is a gate (and he probably had seen the spell before, when he previously saw the Astral Plane (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html)), he would be confused as to why he can't see one near the massive wooden thing Xykon and RC keep pointing at.
Section 1h: Recognising MitD (in-comic)There have been two alternative explanations for the Hunter's + Circus scene and the differing reactions to MitD when looked at.

On one hand, the Hunter's scene can be seen as a lampshade hanging of MitD's ability to talk, i.e. an express admission of Rich that he shouldn't, just to get it over with and ignored thereafter. The hunters see a creature that is rare, powerful, strangely non-threatening and decide to sell it. They mention it talks, and from then on Rich need not keep pointing out this fact. The circus scene builds on this, letting us know MitD is revolting to look at (or smelled, or some other passive characteristic).

On the other hand, MitD could be a shifter. The Hunters may have seen a creature that couldn't talk, because MitD was adopting the shape of one, and was sold under the guise of one such creature. The circus crowd would likewise see either a revolting creature, or one that is shifting uncontrollably, such that the change is both revolting and, for some, beautiful (like a kaleidoscope). RC would recognise MitD for what he is, a creature that both shifts and can talk, explaining why he is not surprised by this last fact. Note that while this works on paper as an explanation, no creature that fits it has ever been proposed.
Section 1i: Recognising MitD (by readers)Some people have argued that the MitD must be easily recognized because they feel it would detract from the eventual reveal if the readers cannot immediately identify its species (usually, this is countered by the argument that the reveal will likely be a dramatic moment for MitD which, while it might require a specific ability, will not be centered upon MitD's species, but his growth as a character).

Other people have argued that the MitD cannot be easily-recognized because it seems unlikely that Rich would select something easily guessable when part of the purpose of MitD was to provide a challenge to what, at the time, was a very D&D-centric readership. Faced with such an audience, Rich, they argue, would likely go for a challenging creature that would keep them (us) guessing for years to come.

Finally, some more people think that the fame of the creature is irrelevant, because nothing in Rich's words suggest that he must be famous or must be obscure and thus, unless he chooses to clarify, it is not a demonstrable characteristic upon which to build a hypothesis.
Section 1j: Suspicion of MitD's involvement in the escapeWhy wasn't MitD suspected for the escape beyond the demon roaches? RC, the resident know-it-all and most likely to connect the dots was not present for the escape - he used Word of Recall and only returned once the action was over. We also do not know how much Xykon knows about MitD. We only have MitD's word that Xykon knows what he is, and even then, given Xykon's attitude towards book knowledge, he probably only knows MitD's species name and the fact that he is strong, and thus powerful (power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html) is all Xykon cares about). If so, Xykon would not know MitD can teleport, and likely thinks him too incompetent (and too asleep) to be responsible. All in all, the scene seems carefully orchestrated so that MitD could save O-Chul and V without giving himself away.
Section 1k: The meaning of Fine LineFor a wide variety of reasons, a number of participants feel that the "fine line" comment is meant to be a clue about MitD's authorship:

I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one
The reasoning goes that the phrase itself is unnecesary, the general understanding of it (i.e. Rich didn't create MitD) is addressed well enough in the context, and thus the retreading of the point actually hints to something not quite so clear cut - usually interpreted that Rich did have a hand in MitD's creation (because he helped craft the manual it is in, for example) or because he created it, but not for OotS.

On a strictly logical way, it is true that the sentence is somewhat redundant in context. However, it is also Rich's way of admitting that, to most of his readers, his assurance that he personally didn't create MitD is a cop-out since when MitD is revealed, he might as well have - the line he intends to draw between fantasy monsters created by him and others is fine indeed.

As a practical matter, even if the above interpretation is correct, and it is a subtle hint that Rich did in fact create MitD is some indirect way, it has never as a theory born fruit. To date no creatures have been brought forth with "partially authored by Rich" as a point in their favour.
Section 1l: MitD's Hand in #555?Unfortunately, what we see in Panel 1 in strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not MitD's hand, but the bucket's handle
Section 1m: MitD's Species SizeWe know that MitD has not yet reached his adult size, both from MitD's recollection of a much bigger father, and from Oona's comment that he is "so small, but will grow in time". The question, then, is how much bigger we can expect the base species to be. To answer this, size categories as used in D&D must be understood to be a logarithmic scale - each size category is double the height of the previous (length for quadrupeds) - a Medium size creature is up to 8 feet tall, a Large one 16, a Huge one 32, etc. While a child-sized Large or even Huge creature could be argued for (and is the basis for the size restriction in the FBS rules in section 3a), anything beyond has generally been found to be hard to justify. In part due to the general agreement that MitD is a pre-teen (due to his attitudes towards sex & boys-only clubs), which suggests he still has some growth to do before he becomes an adult - but not a huge growth. Humans, for example, grow about 20-30% of their height during adolescence. In D&D size terms, that might push you through one size category, but not through two (which would require more than doubling your height).

A second consideration is strength - larger creatures are, of course, stronger, but children are weaker than full grown adults. In the D&D ruleset (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), there exists a strength growth chart for creature size advancement that can serve as a guideline to how strength changes between sizes:

Old SizeNew SizeStrDexConNat. ArmorAC/ Attack
FineDiminutiveSame-2SameSame-4
DiminutiveTiny+2-2SameSame-2
TinySmall+4-2SameSame-1
SmallMedium+4-2+2Same-1
MediumLarge+8-2+4+2-1
LargeHuge+8-2+4+3-1
HugeGargantuan+8Same+4+4-2
GargantuanColossal+8Same+4+5-4

Dragons, as one of the few species with detailed statblocks for multiple stages of development, adhere to the above strength growth, usually splitting it across the age groups that share a size.


Version History

1 - MitD - What We Know (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?114313)
2 - MitD II: Lighting a candle in the Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134194)
3 - MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156178)
4 - MitD IV: I Can't Believe it's Not Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?189676)
5 - MitD V: MitD and the Templates of Doom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?231404)
6 - MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?253731)
7 - MitD 007: GoldenEyes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293047")
8 - MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?347800)
9 - Summon MitD IX: Roll in Section 3a (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?488773)
10 - MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?494708)
11 - MitD XI: A Good Man (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563198)
12 - MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578378)
13 - MitD XIII: Learning is happening (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?584536)
14 - MitD XIV: High In Protean (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611229)
15 - MitD XV: The Other Dark One (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615971)
16 - MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646977)
17 - MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650507)
18 - MitD XVIII: It's utterly unreasonable to expect us to have been paying any attention

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 2: MitD
Section 2a: Physical Characteristics
AgeMitD's first appearance in SoD happens "29 years ago" (SoD pg. 49). This is measured back from comic 1, so MitD is at least 30 years old.

From his keeper's comments about how long he has been fed stew every day, we know MitD spent more than five years in the circus.
AppearanceMitD's appearance is both disgusting and beautiful, to judge from the reactions of the circus crowd (see 1a SoD Canon). It is ugly enough to provoke vomiting in the stands, but still cause someone to exclaim "And yet... beautiful".
Oona the Beastmaster compares him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) to a creature out of a spicy meat-induced nightmare, although she also calls him magnificent.

It has been suggested it could be because in 1st edition, an evil creature with CHA -1 had the same CHAR bonus as a good one with CHA 24
BodyRedCloak suggests (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) that he could use MitD as material to create undead, which suggests he has a physical body (e.g. not a fire elemental)
MitD's ability to laugh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) indicates he has lungs
DietFor most of the comic & prequel, MitD was almost constantly hungry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), thus probably indicating a species that requires food (but it isn't stated).
Take into account:

He is not at all picky about his food, having been shown to eat almost anything ("His palate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) can't be that refined", dibs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) on a moldy cheeseburguer in sock drawer).
He has preference for stew (See SoD, and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html)).
He feels weird to eat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) babies (including veal), but not adults (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html).
He has eaten scrabble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) tiles, and apparently didn't find them to his taste (but he was expecting donuts)
Xykon claims he has "read someplace (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html)" that MitD's species considers dwarves a delicacy (MitD disputes this)

As of #1260 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html), MitD claims to not having been as hungry for the last few days ("not like super full, but I'm not starving. It's fine"). There is so far little consensus about the cause, but the following have been suggested as possibilities:

He is lying, not unlike the time he extemporised to stop Xykon from attacking the OotS at the desert; although this sitution feels different - for one thing, MitD doesn't know who these dwarves being offered are, and thus doesn't seem as conflicted about their impending deaths.
He is approaching some kind of developmental stage (like a caterpillar about to cocoon, or in D&D Barghest about to go Greater Barghest)
The caves are sustaining him, just like (presumably) they sustain all other powerful creatures inside them
He is in his species' preferred climate, being shown by his energy consumption being lowered


GenderMitD self-identifies as male, forming clubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) that don't allow girls. Also, O-Chul calls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) him "a good man"
Head

Eyes: MitD has two yellow eyes, next to each other. They are consistently drawn as larger than those of medium-sized creatures, closer to that of ogres (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) (while still being more or less at medium-sized height, but he might be crouched under the umbrella)
Face: RC makes reference to stabbing him in the face (War and XPs, page 415a)
Mouth: MitD presumably has a mouth, since he has a tongue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) and teeth (that leave toothmarks in a taco in SoD). It must be rather large, since Xykon instructs him to "devour [RedCloak] whole"
Olfactory organ: smells by sniffing while holding the bag close to below his two eyes (but could be his mouth, rather than a nose)
Teeth: munches its food. And its voice is deformed while speaking with its mouth full


LimbsMitD has got stomping (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) ability while holding an umbrella. No specific limbs are identified (feet/paws/tail?), but the use of the verb stomp requires physical limbs, whatever they are. The limbs are also dextrous enough to hold crayons (War and XPs page 415a) and draw (lack of quality may indicate clumsy apendages, or lack of maturity).

Since he was able to both step on and pull on the rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) at the same time, he must have or be able to produce at least two limbs, one of which must be prehensile.

He is capable of holding a bucket of paint and a brush on opposite sides of his face, suggesting he probably has two symmetrical prehensile appendages.

In the Earthquake scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), the far-back position of the stomp suggests he is either bipedal but crouched over, or walks in multiple 3+ legs, with some far behind the head's position.

Finally, what is visible in Panel 1 of strip 555 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) is not a limb, but the bucket's handle.
MaturityMitD has consistently acted in very immature fashion, which could be his personality, or it could indicate he is a child of his species.
Take into account:

Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He is over 30 years old (see Age)
He hasn't changed all that much in size or personality since his earliest appearance
Many creatures (including demons and angels) have a really hard time fitting as MitD because of his child-like behaviour.
Rich is unlikely to have him be too young - he dislikes the idea of creatures with the personality of a 4 year old having an alignment. MitD acts more like a 12 year old.

Personal Odor MitD has frequently apologized for his personal odor. This could explain the reaction in the circus, although it would need to address the reason why the odor doesn't affect the public until after he is lighted up.
It has been suggested that MitD's personal smell could be a hint towards the Stench (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troglodyte.htm) ability
SizeSince his first appearance, MitD has fit in a box this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) size, and under this umbrella (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html). This makes him human-sized or large (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Large). He is also shorter than Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html), who is Medium (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) sized.
Take into account:

Rich has been known to mess around with sizes of creatures in the comic (Inexplicably large (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html) faeries), but to this date he has only made small creatures larger, never larger ones smaller than they should be.
MitD could be a young member of his race (see Maturity)
Oona the Beastmaster believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) he will grow bigger
He's probably taller than a kobold:

Mitd: "I know! Maybe I'm a kobold!"
BlueCloak: "You're pretty tall for a kobold"
MitD: "Maybe I'm two kobolds?"
If you do not object to using templates (see 3a: Templated Creature), the Dungeonbred template can be used to reduce his size by one category, theoretically allowing for huge creatures (but does carry the disadvantages of templates)

SleepMitD has been shown sleeping in various occasions (in SoD, and after O-Chul's and V's teleportation), and has admitted to becoming sleepy, so it is reasonable to assume he requires sleep (but it isn't stated).
WeightRC was able to lift both MitD and his box onto a cart. This is almost certainly an exaggeration of RC's lifting ability for the purposes of moving the plot forwards, but a detailed examination of the issue was attempted starting here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13829249#post13829249). The conclusion reached is that if Rich wasn't bending the rules, and if the box was made of a light wood (such as pine), and RC was using a spell to boost his strength [Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) gives +6], and he has average or slightly above average strength for a goblin (he is unlikely to have more than that, since he is a pure caster), MitD's weight should be that of a medium creature, tops. (See my numbers here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13842268&postcount=102))

Section 2b: Abilities
AttackMitD attempts to "hit as lightly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) as possible" and still sends both Miko and her horse flying through a wall, off a tower and long distance (the tower is nowhere to be seen, the mountains are far away).
Take into account:

If proposing a "child" or "runt" of a species known for great strength, the dissonance between his undeveloped personality and adult strength needs to be addressed.
See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7838816&postcount=629) a post examining possible ways the punch could have happened by the rules.


DefencesMitD did not notice 5 attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) from Belkar and feels tickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) when attacked by Miko.
Take into account:

It could indicate piercing/slashing resistance, DR, high AC, high HP or a combination thereof.
He got a paper cut (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) from trying to eat a letter, indicating he can hurt himself (e.g. overcoming epic resistance, if he himself is epic, or indicating a natural armour that doesn't protect his insides), or Rule of Funny
Miko believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) he has DR
RC knows he cannot possibly injure MitD by stabbing him in the face (see War and XPs, page 415a)

Earth CrackingMitD cracks the earth by stomping on it.
Suggestions:

Consequence of his great strength: sending horses flying through walls and for kilometers take about as much strength as causing the Earth to crack.
Earthquake ability: like that of an Earth Elemental, or some other specific spell-like ability in that sense such as Wrack Earth (PH2)

KnowledgeEven though MitD displays lack of maturity (see 2a: Maturity), he has displayed flashes of brilliance:
O-Chul's comment he learnt Go! quickly
His ability to tell that a ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) was only the second half of a whole
His right-on-the-money Political Analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html)
He admits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) he doesn't actually try to think, and that he lets Xykon and RedCloak think for him
If MitD is psionic, it can be explained by hypercognition (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm)
O-Chul's EscapeWe know from Rich's words (see section 1a) that MitD was responsible for O-Chul's and V's escape (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html).
Suggestions:

Teleportation Spell: in D&D, teleportation requires the spell caster to travel with the targets, and more often than not to be touching the other targets.
Wish: Very few creatures can cast wish, but would explain the situation well. In its favour, MitD is surprised (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) when his wishes don't come true (but that could be his child personality).
Plane shifting: Many creatures have this spell, but has most of the disadvantages of teleportation, plus O-Chul's and V's escape does not match the effect of plane shift (in that they ended up in the same plane)
See also Section 1b for an in-depth analysis of teleportation options in D&D

Take into account:

MitD may have been hit by V's missed dimension anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html), explaining why he didn't go along if it was a teleportation effect.
Plane Shift, in particular, doesn't necessarily affect the caster (it has succesfully been used offensively in OotS)
It has been pointed out that if it were a spell, MitD would have had to say its name out loud, which typically a spell requires (but not an extraordinary, spell-like ability or supernatural ability, nor a psionic power). On the other hand, not all spells have been said out loud in-comic (example: Xykon's mental suggestion in SoD, Redcloak passing his Trial Of Becoming A Hobgoblin with a silent Slay Living), so it doesn't discard a spell either.
Other systems have spells or abilities named "Escape"

PsionicsIt has been suggested that MitD may have psionic abilities since we never see his limbs holding up objects, and as an avenue to explain his other powers. If he only starts to actively use psionics at the time of escape ("unshackling" his mind due to the stress of the situation), it would also tie with Rich's comment about discovering powers deep inside himself (see Section 1a - Rich's Words). Also, it would explain why he tends to be tired after using his powers.
Take into account:

Most psionics featured in the comic (goblin mind reader (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html), the story of the little psion that could (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0494.html) and a guest appearance in SSaDT), had a purplish aura around their entire heads. However, Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html) has a yellow aura. In both cases, though, the aura surrounds the entire head, where MitD, at best, illuminates his eyes briefly.
During the Go game (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html), his turn starts and end, and yet we don't see him place a counter. Rich may have skipped the dialogue where MitD told O-Chul were to place his counter just to reduce the wordiness of that page, though. There is also no psionic effect line like the ones radiating from Laurin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html)
MitD is unaware of most of his powers, which doesn't suggest his mind is making them happen (so it would only explain the escape, if at all).
RedCloak, who knows what MitD is, had to research (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) if psionics existed in OotS-verse. If MitD is psionic, why was it so difficult to know? (it has been suggested he may have templated psionic ability, and as such his psionics not be part of his species). On the other hand, creatures can be psionic or not depending on the setting. RC could have known about the mind flayer in Dorukan's Dungeon, and still not know if psionic powers did exist.
If MitD wasn't actively psionic until the escape, it would also constitute an explanation: RC tested him for psionic powers and, finding none, couldn't decide if psionics existed or not.
The lack of visible limbs is likely a combination of the minimalistic drawing style of the comic and Rich's desire to not show us what MitD is.
MitD had to tip the circus cage to get to the bucket of stew; presumably a psionic creature could simply levitate the bucket (but MitD may be unaware of his abilities)
The fact that no hand is seen holding the umbrella is a style issue where the hand is behind the object, rather than around it. Belkar holds his daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) in the same way

RainIt has been suggested that MitD could have (inadvertently) caused rain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) to help O-Chul rest
Raising undeadMitD probably does not have the ability to raise undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html), but might be used as raw material. At the very least, he does not have 5 levels of cleric, although it has been pointed out he may have the capability but due to his innocence/incompetence he has never used it, leading RC to believe he cannot without gaining cleric levels first. That said, RC would probably have checked MitD's MM entry, and be aware of all its powers, regardless of which one MitD uses.
SightMitD's sight is keen enough to be able to recognise Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) on top of a dragon a catapult-max-range away, without the benefit of a telescope, but does not see him until he becomes visible, indicating he does not have natural See Invisible ability
SpeechThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surpised MitD could speak, and in common (see 1b SoD Cannon)

This is usually interpreted as a lampshade: his species can't or won't talk, but Rich changed it for plot purposes.
Alternatively, MitD's species could have been confused with a similar species, which while rare and valuable, is not capable of speech.
Note that the wording could indicate both species incapable of speech, and species that normally wouldn't talk (like Zodars).

It has been pointed out that MitD's speech bubbles are black text on white background, unlike demons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), who tend to have red-on-black and undead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html), who tend to have white-on-black. However, there is one demon who has a normal voice, Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), so it is probably not a good indicator of species. Rich has confirmed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14733452&postcount=190) that voice "colour" can mislead.
ShoutMitD can shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) loud enough that it gives Belkar pause. This may or may not be an actual shout attack, although neither Belkar nor Haley were damaged, but they may have been Shaken, as in Frightful Presence.
Summoning Demon RoachesMitD was not responsible for the Demon Roaches (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) following team evil - as per SoD, they first attached to Xykon and RC in an evil dinner where Xykon used to get his coffee (in his pre-Lich days). MitD may have attracted more of them, but not the original group. As such, it is unlikely that their presence indicates anything about MitD. That said, the Demon Roaches are 4th-wall breaking rule of funny most of the time, regardless of their origin.
Swallow Whole?In SoD, Xykon orders a mind controlled MitD to devour whole RC if RC double-crosses Xykon. This might indicate that MitD has a swallow whole ability.
Take in account:
Xykon uses the word devour, not swallow, which allows MitD to chew.
Xykon had only just met MitD, and since he isn't interested in reading, he probably would not know what MitD is precisely. Nevertheless, something about MitD (probably a big mouth or similar) suggested to Xykon that MitD would be able to carry out the order.


Section 2c: Other Characteristics
CategoriesMitD cannot belong to any of the following without being an exception to the listed characteristic:

Not a deity (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Construct (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Elemental (eats, and desires to eat; sleeps)
Not Ooze (has a body)
Not Plant (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)
Not Undead (eats, sleeps, etc)
Not Vermin (vulnerable to mind-affecting effects)

Several people have remarked that Oona's knowledge of MitD makes it unlikely he is an Outsider - but Oona may have better-than-average knowledge skills from her extended familiarity with Kraagor's Tomb.


Challenge Rating
Rich intends the MitD to be a credible challenge for the heroes - the watchtower scene was included for that reason, as explained by Rich. Since Rich likely has a target level the party will achieve by the time they face MitD, MitD must have a CR at or above this level. As a rule of thumb, CR18 or higher is preferred, Epic levels being better.
See also lothos' analysis (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6669234&postcount=795) of MitD's CR

Connection to the Astral PlaneMitD seems to know the Astral Plane's characteristics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html).
Considerations:

He doesn't remember having been there
Xykon is surprised at this
It could be just a successful knowledge roll, or that he was taken there at some point in the past
In the past, it displayed extreme ignorance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) of the planes

DarknessAs per NCftPB (see section 1a - Published Canon), the darkness that surrounds MitD is magical in its nature. Xykon's instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) imply that they are independent of MitD, since he can step or leap out of them (i.e. leave them behind).
Note that D&D rules for line of sight allow for creatures at the edge of magical darkness to see out of it, while remaining concealed.
Drawing CluesEven though MitD is always in darkness, it has been suggested that by carefully noting the placement of his eyes, and of anything he manipulates, his general shape can be deduced. The general consensus is that he is either walking crouched or has four legs on the floor (from the placing of the stomp (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)), and that he has a long reach (as when pulling on the rope: 9th panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)). Take into account that this is debatable, and that MitD has not necesarily been drawn consistently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html)

Since he can turn his eyes around (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) (panel 11) without turning his entire body, it is possible that MitD has a neck or similar (such as eyestalks) that can move independently of the rest of the body.

Also, it has been brought up multiple times that the go board is a cryptoclue about MitD. Unfortunately, there is no agreement on what image they show, with people having identified it as Tarrasque, PvP's Skull, a demon, or an 8-bit sprite from some NES game (also, one jokingly suggested it looked like Pepe le Pew due to the color scheme). It is likely a case of pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia)
EnvironmentThe Stereotyped Big Game Hunters were surprised to find him deep in a rainforest. This discards rainforest as his environment, but leaves everything else open.
FamilyMitD remembers his dad "sort of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)" as BIG and even a bigger eater than he is.
Considerations:

MitD could have been "adopted" (or even created) by a member of another species completely, just as he is in the wrong environment. If this adoptive parent is of a different alignment from MitD's base species, it could explain MitD's conflict between good and evil.
MitD is still young and will eventually be as big as he remembers his father to have been
MitD might have a warped mental image of his father, from remembering as "big" when MitD himself was smaller; as such, he may already be as big as his father used to be.
MitD is mixed breed, and his father is larger than he will ever be

Knowledge of MitDMitD is very difficult to identify. Only a few individuals have claimed to know what he is:

The Stereotyped Big Game Hunters (SoD) knew he was "one of those" and that it was surprising he could talk (and in common, even)
RedCloak (SoD) stated he knew what MitD is
Oona (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) compared him to a majestic monster comparable to a kebab-induced nightmare, but smaller than he could be
O-Chul (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html), after his long imprisonment and friendship with MitD, still needed the help of the most knowledgeable scribe available to the Azurites, and even after that, he only has "a theory" (which he does not think Lien or MitD would believe).
MitD believes Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) also knows what he is, but it's likely Xykon only cares about MitD's strength and looks, rather than detailed knowledge of what MitD can do
What looks like a wizard (SoD) in the circus audience admits he'd never seen anything like it.


It has been suggested that the hunters may have confused MitD with a different, less powerful but similar looking species that nevertheless is still rare. There have been no practical examples of this yet. Stereotypical Big Game Hunters, however, are seldom wrong about their prey.
Mental ResistanceIn SoD (pg.96), Xykon was able to command MitD (as evidenced by MitD's swirly eyes), indicating MitD is not immune to mind-affecting spells.
ReachMitD cannot reach stew or meat left outside his box, but can reach the doors in Kraagor's wall enough to paint them, suggesting his reach is based on free movement rather than long appendages or telekinesis.
SpeciesMitD was declared by the Stereotyped Big Game Hunters to be "one of these", indicating that there are more than one of him.
TracksMitD leaves tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), which Belkar can't identify (but he's a lousy tracker, and even if he wasn't, MitD might have been carrying table, chairs, stuffed animals and a paralized O-Chul at the time, which might have obscured the tracks). However, he leaves no tracks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) in the snow. The following possibilities have been suggested as an explanation:

He floats/flies
He has some form of permanent pass without trace (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/passWithoutTrace.htm) or water walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/waterWalk.htm) (note that despite its name, it works on plenty of non-water surfaces, including snow and lava)
The umbrella hides the tracks, in the same way it hides MitD's limbs even when they should be visible (e.g. around the handle) (i.e. it's part of the "we don't get to see any part of MitD until the reveal)


Section 2d: Abilities Augmentation: Templates, Class Levels, etc.A number of ways to increase creatures capabilities to match those shown by MitD have been proposed. All of them have the same general problem: they likely violate Rich's assurance that he didn't invent MitD and that it can be figure out. To illustrate these issues, consider two examples:
BingosaurusThe argument most commonly cited in favour of augmentations is that it is not a Rich creation if Rich merely uses already existing rules to create MitD, such as adding templates, feats, class levels, etc. But there are rules for making your own monsters, spells, etc.

Nothing is stopping Rich from making what is for all intents and purposes a Bingosaurus* complete with an insatiable hunger for stew and yellow eyes, using rules that were published prior to comic #100. He will then furnish it with Bingo's epic earthquake (which functions like a regular earthquake except it is much more awesome and can be aimed in a direction), Wish and Bingo's Commanding You To Stop ability, DC100, at will

*Named after Lord Bingo, original proponent of this counterexample.
Binks' Mystery SwordRelated to the above, the second most common argument in favour of augmentations is that since the rules exist, it can be figured out. By the same logic, a DM could hand a character a custom magic item like Binks' Mystery Sword* and not tell his player what it does because the DM didn't invent it, instead followed the rules, so clearly the player can figure out what it does on his own.

*Named after Binks, original proponent of this counterexample.

The augmentation ideas presented so far are:
FeatsWhen a creature is promoted beyond its base CR, with every 3 HD added, the DM can also add a feat. Of interest to this thread are the two following feats:

Mighty Roar: allows a creature, once per day, to make a dreadful roar that renders everyone nearby shaken for x rounds. Pre-requisite: be an animal or magical beast of at least large size.
Stamp: allows a creature to make a shockwave with a radius of a number of squares equal to their HD. Creatures within the radius that fail a balance check vs the stamper's attack roll are knocked down; structures are also damaged by the shockwave, which could explain the ground being torn up if one is generous with the definition of 'structure'. Prerequisites: have feet, be at least huge size, and have the trample attack.

Cons:

No Wish feat
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact number of extra HD added by "the DM" is not really guessable.
Size issues: MitD is likely Medium sized; while large is possible, huge is likely too big.
MitD is clearly lazy, and thus has little canon support for the idea that he has developed beyond the average of his species (quite the opposite, in fact). His father being bigger than he is also argues against this (more HD eventually makes the monster bigger).


Templated/Mixed lineage Creature
In D&D, a template is not a creature, but rather a number of changes that can be made to any creature meeting the requirements. The changes usually are around a theme. For example, the half-dragon template (applied to creatures with partial draconic parentage) make the creature more draconic, giving it a breath weapon, claws, a bite attack, and some draconic immunities, along with making the creature physically and mentally stronger.

Some templates function more generally, the fiendish template, for example, is used to create races of fauna native to the lower planes, and never originally were the base creature, but instead are a separate (but similar) species. Therefore, not all templates are once-in-a-lifetime combinations fluff-wise (although a half-fiend, half-celestial, half-red, half-blue, half-green, half-silver, fiendish living fireball could hardly be considered anything but a once-in-a-lifetime combination).

More practically, templates can provide practically every ability the MitD has demonstrated (teleportation, strange appearance, physical defenses, great strength, etc). Due to the ability of templates to make practically anything the MitD, this thread has moved away from analyzing specific monster template combinations (of which there are many), and instead will evaluate templates alone as what they could contribute (if there is a published example of a creature with a template, it can be proposed as a creature).

However, templates, like all augmentation, has its drawbacks:

No Wish template before strip #100 (Amidah (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16766329&postcount=994) and other Immortal's Handbook variants came out later)
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since the exact base type and templates use is not really guessable.
Unless the exact combination of templates and base creature has been used elsewhere, it can be argued that an original template stack would be a Rich invention.
Its unlikely that a one-in-a-lifetime combination of templates would be so common that the hunters call it "one of these" (although not all templates require mixed parentage)
No actual evidence of MitD having different species parents (although not all templates require mixed parentage)


Below is a list of templates that can provide abilities the MitD has demonstrated.
Beast of Xvim (Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn)
Summary: A monster blessed by Xvim (and evil god in Forgotten Realms). While it doesn't give any abilities that make it a good candidate to be the MitD, it has a Feed ability similar to that of the Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (only increases HD, but the HD increase is uncapped). See the entry on Phrenic Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) for how this is useful. The fluff would need to be redone, as Xvim does not exist in OoTSverse, although the Dark One could be a suitable replacement. Has moderate DR that might be able to explain tower scene defenses, although on its own it cannot explain any other scene.

Advances HD by 1 automatically, gains an additional HD per 8 HD of humanoids slain and eaten.
Makes explicit mention of glowing green eyes. The eyes of the MitD glow yellow. With the adaptation to a different god, arguably the appearance like this could be altered.
In any case, there would be some alteration (which could violate the "not Rich's creation" rule) to make a Beast of Xvim without Xvim.
Gives moderate DR (scaled on HD, /+1, +2, or +3, so unclear what would overcome it after upgrade, which could explain tower scene defense.
Can be applied to any creature, although Xvim prefers "bats, black dogs, black cats, hawks, and vultures, or in monsters such as beholders, green or blue dragons, hell hounds, cockatrices, imps, dark nagas, and undead creatures."

Dungeonbred (Dungeonscape)
Summary: Creature was raised in a dungeon and is smaller than normal. Applied to corporeal aberration, animal, magical beast, or vermin. Makes the creature slightly weaker physically. Doesn't explain any scene, but can allow the MitD to fit in the box or under the umbrella.

Rich was involved in the creation of Dungeonscape, and has mentioned working on the template chapter, therefore could be his creation, no real way to be sure.
Essentially gives -4 Strength, so it is harder to fit the tower scene.
Eats less than a normal member of his race, as the MitD eats a lot, not all that good a fit.

Fiendish Creature (SRD/MMI) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)
Summary: Like normal creature, but native to lower planes. Gets DR/magic, energy resistance, SR, and Smite Good, all scaled with HD. Always evil. Doesn't explain any scenes, although the DR arguably could help provide defenses for Tower Scene (although it is at most 10/magic, so not unlikely Milko would overcome it). Can be applied to corporeal nongood aberrations, animals, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, oozes, plants, or vermin. Animals and vermin become magical beasts.

Half-Dragon (SRD, MMI, various other books) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm)
Summary: Applied to any corporeal living creature to make it more draconic. Gets breath, claws, bite, and some draconic immunities (paralysis, sleep). Also gets wings if large or larger. Big bonus to Strength (+8), small bonuses (+2) to Con, Int, and Cha. There is a type of half-dragon for practically each type of true dragon, although none of them really do much. The +8 Str means if the base creature's strength is ≥22, it'd have get sufficient tower scene offensive, but other than that, the template doesn't generally help much (there are a bunch of types, it is possible one of them adds something else, if so, bring it up).

Half-Elemental (Manual of the Planes)
Summary: Creature has various elemental traits. Doesn't change appearance much (minor elemental themed things, like an half-earth elemental might get gemstone eyes. Gives a number of SLAs based on HD, none of which really are useful (with the exception of half-earth, which gives earthquake at 13 HD, and could explain the stomp scene). Earth and Water give minor boosts to strength. Can be applied to any corporeal creature with an Int of 4+. Changes type to outsider, gives appropriate elemental subtype. With the exception of the strength boost (+4 and +2 for earth and water respectively), doesn't allow creatures to explain the big scenes, although Half-earth can explain the the stomp with earthquake.

Half-Troll (Fiend Folio)
Summary: Boosts strength, gives a bit of fast healing, bite attack, claw attacks. Can be added to any animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or outsider, and changes type to giant. Strength boost (+6) lowers the required strength of the base creature (with this template) to explain the tower scene to 24. The fast healing (5) arguably could explain the tower scene defense, although somewhat dubious. The changing type away from outsider allows lots of template stacking, if one so desires. Furthermore, half-trolls are pretty ugly, which could explain the circus scene (but what kind of wizard hasn't heard of trolls?).

Monster of Legend (MMII)
Summary: An animal, magical beast, or monstrous humanoid has a divinely appointed task, and special powers to back it up in accomplishing said task. Changes type to outsider (native). They are unique, so all those things kind of make the (seemingly purposeless and lazy) MitD not seem to fit. The template increases physical strength (+10), and can give fast heal 5 and DR 10/+1 as well, which arguably could explain the Tower scene (the strength boost certainly helps, although the fast healing and DR is rather on the low end). Nothing to explain escape. Can get frightful presence, which could explain circus scene, although it is triggered by making "a loud sound (a roar, growl, or other sound appropriate to its form)," hardly what the MitD did.

Paragon Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm)
Summary: Generally makes the creature stronger, better faster. Gives fast healing and DR which can explain the tower scene. Boosts ability scores, attacks, damage, AC, saves, skill checks which can qualify an otherwise weaker monster (ex: Genie) as a threat to a near epic-level party. Does not change physical appearance or grant teleportation ability, so cannot explain escape or circus scene. Does not change creature type. Can be added to anything.

+15 Strength allows any base creature with Strength ≥15 meet strength requirement for tower scene offense.
Fast healing 20, DR 10/epic, maximized HP, +15 Con, and +12 HP/HD on top of that (along with +12 luck and +12 insight bonus to AC) can explain the defenses in the tower scene for pretty much anything.
The +25 luck bonus to hit and +20 luck bonus to damage could be argued to be a cause for the MitD "accidentally" hitting a horse through the wall.
There is no real evidence of the MitD being exceptionally competent for a member of his species. In fact, Team Evil seems to think of him as sort of a disappointment. Without saying the MitD is exceptional, there is no real way to convey it is Paragon.

Phrenic Creature (SRD/Expanded Psionics Handbook) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm)
Summary: The creature happens to be psionic. It can be applied to any not mindless creature that doesn't already have the psionic subtype. It provides various PLAs (Psi-like abilities) based off HD. The important thing for the MitD is psionic teleport 3/day (just like normal teleport, but psionic) at 15+ HD, which can explain the escape scene. It does not say it alters appearance (although larger than normal brains is a common trait to denote psionic ability), but probably cannot explain the circus scene, and provides no boosts to physical attack or defense to explain the tower scene.

Gives PLAs, ML=HD. At 15 HD, gives psionic teleport 3/day which serves as an adequate explanation (likely arriving at a "similar area", possibly the MitD originally had a false destination making it more likely.
It has been argued the MitD's eyes glowing with the Escape are more similar to psionics than other magic.
We had no real evidence of the MitD being psionic, and the template makes no physical distinction between the base creature, potentially violating "can be figured out" even more than templates in general.

Pseudonatural Creature (SRD/ELH) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm)
Summary: Makes the creature a cosmic horror. Explains circus scene with alternate form. It can fit tower scene for ~90% of proposed candidates (Strength ≥8), but can't explain the escape. Can be applied to any corporeal creature. Makes the creature an Outsider (extraplanar)

Can be added to any corporeal creature.
Gives +22 strength, at least 35 natural armor, and DR/epic scaling with HD. This allows pretty much any creature with over 8 strength to fit the tower scene (although the more HD initially, the better).
Has an alternate form specified to be "a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form)," which can explain the circus scene. Alternate form imposes morale penalty on attacks against the monster, but nothing huge like dying of fright or confusion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html).
Does not provide explanation for the Escape (its Dimensional Door ability has a range of 1200 ft).



Radiant Creature (DR321)
Summary: Creature native to the "plane of radiance." Gets DR/magic and fast healing 2 (while in light), which kind of poorly explains defenses in tower scene. Gives some light-based SLAs (nothing we've seen the MitD use). Main draw is dazzling aura (dazzles creatures within 30 ft that fail a will save) to explain the circus scene. Boost to charisma (+6) might make it more beautiful. Strobe lights can cause dizziness and other such things, so that could explain why some people had a negative reaction. The template can be added to any Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, or Monstrous Humanoid, and changes type to outsider.
Proposed combinations:

The Adversary (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Illithid#Legends): a illithid merged via "faulty ceremorphosis" with a powerful sorcerer.
Half-giant war troll of legend
Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque
Baby Awakened Fiendish Half-Efreeti Tarrasque
Paragon!something
Phrenic Ephemeral Hangman
Phrenic Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque Wilder 1
Phrenic Tarrasque Wilder 1
Half-Orc Half-Dragon
Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7590835&postcount=200)
Pseudonatural Phrenic Tarrasque (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10319127&postcount=1349)
Pseudonatural greater barghast servitor of the Dark One
Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Tauric Werewolf Lord Hybrid Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#WerewolfLord)/Chimeric Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1) Giant Shadow Awoken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) Bonsai aka Potted Plant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15747023&postcount=236)

Pimp my Tarrasque
Given the huge number of such combinations suggested for the Tarrasque, this approach is also known as Pimp my Tarrasque:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w130/superbongos/pimptarrasque.jpg

Class Levels Only useful to explain the escape scene, it suggests MitD has 18+ class levels of Sorcerer, which would allow him to cast wish even if the base creature normally wouldn't (assuming it has at least 19 CHA).
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has not shown any other spell from those 18 levels
It is unexplained how MitD would even gain 18 levels, given his general lazyness
It would require MitD to have forgotten he gained those levels ("discovers powers that he didn't even know he had")

Proposed class levels:

18 levels of sorcerer would give him access to wish.
2 levels of fighter with the alternate class feature Dungeoncrasher might be used to explain the tower scene (although he would have had to rush Miko and her horse, which doesn't quite fit the "hit lightly" rule he himself imposed).

ReincarnationThis idea suggests that MitD used to be a powerful spellcaster (level 18 or more) that dies and used a Reincarnation spell to reincarnate as a rare animal.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since there has been no mention of the possibility of reincarnation in the comic, and it would make figuring out what MitD almost impossible
AbominationIt has been claimed that there is a way for Rich to create his own abomination. Some abomination traits are similar in their description to MitD's eating habits.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words
Almost certainly violates the "didn't create it" clause in Rich's words
Abominations are immune to mind control

PsychicFrom a third-party book published just months before strip 100, if offers a number of powers similar to teleport and others, except using "psychic powers".

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a) since MitD has shown no psychic abilities, and if he did, they are too easily confused with psionics
Unbridled ShapeshifterBy RAW, a shapeshifting creature can gain a large number of abilities by successive shapeshifting into the correct creatures, gaining their magical powers and access to ways to make those changes permanent. The ur-example of this is Pun Pun, the shapeshifting all-powerful kobold. Combined with some form of convenient amnesia you could create a creature very much like MitD, no matter what powers MitD turns out to posses.

Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Rich has been very outspoken about his views on this kind of shapeshifting, including a series of articles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172910) on how to fix it.


Book of Vile Darkness Demon LordAs per BoVD, demon lords each have a unique look and a unique set of abilities. While a few examples are given (such as Demogorgon, a demon prince), they are explicitly by no means exhaustive. The proposed demon lord, as such, fits the big scenes in whatever way we wish.
Cons:
Probably violates the "figured out" clause in Rich's words (see Section 1a)
Demons may or may not have parents in OotS (general cosmology used doesn't have them, but the demon summoned by Qarr claimed to have one - but he was under the Despair spell, and therefore his idea of being a disappointment to his father might have been spell-induced)
Demon Lords are embodiments of their respective Evil plains, and as per Rich's words on the topic, should not be able to change their moral position more than slightly - nowhere near the range demonstrated by MitD (see section 1e)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Proposed Ideas

Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes (FBS)This category groups ideas that fit the clues in the major scenes of MitD, with the following characteristics (as per thread consensus):
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Size/strength requirement (unless suggestion does not depend on strength for the above explanations)

Up to Huge: 30 STR
Gargantuan: 38 STR
Colossal: 46 STR
Colossal +: 54 STR
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)

The proposals may still have other objections (such as that the above explanations require stretching the rules of D&D).

Athasian Nightmare Beast (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20077752&postcount=944)
Pros:
30 Strength
Psionic teleport
Fairly ugly and unique
CR18, decent defences
Dominated by its voracious appetite, can eat anything
Despite spell-like abilities and intelligence appears to have no listed languages or even forms of communication

Cons:
Posted publicly a few months after MitD's decision, but the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich. Post no longer exists. Closest official version (http://www.athas.org/products/loa) (Legends of Athas beta pdf) Jasdoif could find is gargantuan, and from 2008

Glabrezu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#Glabrezu) (SRD or MM 43)Pros: Access to wish 1/month, explains the escape and why the goblin wasn't teleported. It also cannot grant its own wishes, further explaining the lack of later success.
31 STR
20 CHA, but still rather disturbing looking (http://img04.deviantart.net/0731/i/2013/107/3/8/glabrezu_by_vegasmike-d622krv.jpg), while not being immediately recognisable as a demon
Surprising it can speak common (not in its language list)
The stronger limbs are probably not dextrous. The human-like ones are probably not strong enough to pull on a rope.

Cons: Huge by base, would require MitD to be less than half-adult sized
Not surprising it can speak
Depending on canon interpretation, cannot have a parent
Embodiment of Chaotic Evil plane - should not be able to be as Good as MitD is.
Low CR
Can see through magical darkness due to True Seeing
Hagunemnon (Protean) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm) (SRD or ELH 196)Pros:

Great strength (53)
Access to Planar Travel through convenient partial shapeshift into e.g. Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm), which includes greater teleport
As a psionic creature, it may have been converted by the means described in the Expanded Psionics handbook, which would give him psionic teleport
adequate size
his shapeshifting sounds disturbing, but has 34 CHA.
Despite being capable of speaking any language, Proteans normally speak only ever-evolving language impossible for any non-protean to understand, thus being surprising it talks in common.
Its psionic ability to detect thoughts would explain his knowledge of the ritual, probably having heard RC's thoughts on the subject.
Fluff implies there are protean newborns, so presumably they have some form of parentage ("Even newborns are tides of flesh, ever changing")

Cons:

Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.
Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same), and is specially an issue while he sleeps, since he likely cannot spend actions to keep a face then (however, see this essay (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24290445&postcount=1195) giving plausible story reasons why MitD might want to keep his eyes steady, and he might be faking sleep, or his eyes are not visible at all when he sleeps and the lines drawn are for visual communication only)

Hunting Horror (CoC)Pros:

CR 20 - powerful enough to be MitD.
Strength of 34 - on the lower side, but within acceptable bounds for the tower scene.
Hideous form - looks like a "black ropy worm or serpent, rather like a legless dragon... with a single wing rising from the middle of the back and a long sinuous tail trailing behind," but are also "mutable, as some have reported them with two wings instead of one, or two eyes instead of a single three-lobed yellow eye." 6th edition of CoC describes them as "hard to look at" and "continually changing, twitching and writhing".
Accompanied by a permanent foul stench that causes Nausea.
Has a Roar ability, but that causes damage, so perhaps that doesn't explain the "STOP" after all.
Can understand speech, but "rarely speaks," according to the D20 version.
Has a Swallow Whole ability, so more than capable of devouring Redcloak.
Has a tail that it can use as an appendage, allowing him to smack the ground and "punch" Miko and Windstriker through a wall, but making pulling things or holding small objects difficult.
Rare to see it on Earth at all, let alone in a rainforest in the middle of the day.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list

Cons:

Defences not that great: AC of 19, plus DR 5/+1, fast healing of 10 - only the last can help explain the "tickle" comment, and not well at that.
Acquires spells by rolling dice, and picking from a list
Access to teleportation a bit dodgy - some older versions give it more random spell access, but D20 specifies a list of spells that does not include teleportation
Damaged by light - explanations vary as to whether it can tolerate a few hours worth of light or if light damages it outright, but a problem either way
Too big to fit under either umbrella or box.
The total lack of non-wing limbs in the official description doesn't fit the art clues. It's of variable form, though, so it might have limbs.
Alternatively, it has been suggested that the HH could be following the CoC rules, rather than the d20 rules, in which case he could use Avert Harm to resist the attacks, but in that case, the creature does not have a means to explain the escape. As a workaround, it has been suggested it could have learnt a heavily modified Word of Recall that teleports to a random destination, although this has no canon support (that such WoR exists, nor that MitD has learnt it).
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/)Pros:
Can interface with a teraport to teleport (although it is not clear how he'd know where to send them)
Incredible strength and fighting abilities. Invulnerable to anything short of plasma weapons.
Looks like a pile of poo
Endearing and adorable
Fits under the umbrella easily, but his dad could have been bigger if he had eaten recently
Famous for his unbridled appetite.
As per Shining Wrath's Weak Carbosilicate Amorphic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21046037&postcount=132) principle, "If MitD is in fact a Carbosilicate Amorph, it is because Rich has brought Carbosilicate Amorphs into OotSverse, and therefore they are as recognizable as any other monster of similar rarity"
Rich could probably secure copyright from Howard Tayler, since they are friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19691244&postcount=115)
Cons:
Rich probably wouldn't use a science fiction character from another comic in his fantasy comic.

Slaad (ELH 217)White/Black slaads only.
Pros:
Very strong, epic defences
Can teleport others
Disgusting appearance (humanoid toad)
Not inmune to mind-affecting spells
White one is Large. Black is Huge.

Cons:
Tricky reproduction cycle means black/white slaads are unlikely to have a "father" (unless it is of the foundling variety).
MitD would have to be over 300 years old, having evolved through green, grey and death slaad varieties. This does not mesh well with his mental characteristics. (unless Rich has bent the reproduction flavor text)
It may be Product Identity (listed as such in d20.org, but not in the WotC legal documentation).
Even if it is, it may not be impossible for Rich to use it for free, unlike trademarked creatures.
Can talk common, and thus wouldn't surprise the hunters that he can talk.
It may be too recognisable as a humanoid toad to fit the wizard's comment in the circus scene.


Uvuudaum (https://web.archive.org/web/20170102222135/http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/epicNonAbominations.html)Pros:

greater teleport available 3 times a day as an SLA explains the escape
very high strength (39), is very ugly but has extremely high charisma (46)
large bonuses to knowledge:arcana and spellcraft explains understanding of the ritual
Large size, so fits in the box, and doesn't need for MitD to be much smaller than adult to fit under the umbrella
Normally communicates with telepathy, not by speaking, so it's surprising it talks.
A confusion aura could explain reactions in the circus, particularly if it's weakened by MitD being a youngster of the species.

Cons:
Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures)
His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.


Xenocrysth (Hyperconscious: Exploration in Psionics)Pros:

Strength 43, High AC, DR
Psionic Teleport, and ability to read minds, which would allow him to pick up the destination from V's mind
Unusual appearance
Telepathic, so surprising one chooses to talk rather than "impart their thoughts directly into the mind of those with whom they wish to communicate"

Cons:
More terrifying than vomit-inducing appearance
No legs to stomp with, but the end of its tail does have a mace-like protrusion that could have been used instead
Gargantuan, although a very small gargantuan by size (30 ft in length, is actually shorter than the minimum). MitD can be argued to be a mere 25% of its standard size (two categories), which even with hefty strength penalties would still make him quite strong
Fluff suggests they are formed from psionic nightmares, rather than through reproduction, but it is vague hearsay, and possibly wrong ("Sages believe that xenocrysths have slipped from a lucid dream of the Dark Plea[...] the Dark Plea’s progeny continue to squirm forth, birthed from the foulest nightmares of powerful psionic creatures")
Hard to reconcile with RC's difficulty in establishing if psionic rules are in place in OotS, since a Xenocrysth comes from a psionic manual, although it could be that its Catapsi Leech ability was impeding any other psionic's from properly demonstrating their abilities to RC.



Section 3b: Frequently Proposed Ideas
These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a significant problem. If you are considering them, please address the problem listed in your initial post.

DeityFirst, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:

If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics), which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.


GrueCan challenge any lone adventurer, has insatiable appetite and sparse descriptions mention it being horrible. However, it wouldn't desire to be lighted as MitD does, and it is not known to have magic (e.g. teleportation). Note that MitD has enjoyed being in the light before joining team evil, both in the jungle and specially in the circus, and has never shown any discomfort from being in the light (see section 1a - Published Canon)
Pun-Pun & FamilyPun-Pun isn't really something that can be classified as "one of those", and it seems likely that Rich made a joke of this idea when MitD suggested he might be a kobold, only to be told he's to tall for a kobold

Rich "The Giant" Burlew
Rich does not fit any of MitD's characteristics - neither physical (e.g. great strength), nor mental (e.g. personality), nor supernatural (e.g. teleportation powers). Claims that he could give himself the powers needed because he is the author are effectively accusations that MitD is a Mary Sue (unfounded), but also if that were the case, it would be something Rich invented for the story.

A frequent defence is that OotS people would react poorly to people from our world, but we have seen RL people in the comic, and they are stickified, so Rich would not fit the circus scene. Claims that he'd retain his RL nose are baseless, and furthermore the reactions to noses in-comic do not match the circus scene anyway. Rich is also a vegetarian, while MitD eats meat

Snarl jrProbably the #1 proposed idea, the "son-of-Snarl" has a major problem: it does not match Rich's words that MitD is a monster someone else (i.e. not him) invented (see Section 1a: "it isn't something I just made up for the story" & "I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually"). Snarl has also not displayed any form of teleportation magic, nor any particular appetite (except maybe for souls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1139.html), although it could equally be a figure of speech of the destruction it brings to mortals), nor need to sleep.

Furthermore, Snarl has been kept a major secret - it's unlikely that the hunters would know, or that they have seen so many Snarl Jr.s running around they can talk about not having seen "one of these".
Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) (SRD or MM 240)Tarrasque is an iconic creature, famed for eating a lot and sleeping a lot. Unfortunately, there is no particular reason to think that MitD is an iconic creature, and Tarrasque brings several other issues to the table, the most important of which is its lack of teleportation/wishing abilities. Other issues: Tarrasque is traditionally unique and non-reproducing (not part of a species) and far bigger than can fit under an umbrella.

Section 3c: Copyrighted IdeasAll ideas listed here, regardless of how well they fit, have a major problem: they are trademarked, or otherwise unavailable for Rich's use due to legal issues (see Section 4a: Inappropriate Topics)

Black Mage (Final Fantasy)
Boggart (Harry Potter)
Claydol(Pokemon™)
Danica (Star Power)
Diawolf
Domo-kun (NHK)
Father (KND)
Godzilla & pals (Godzilla)
Goku (Dragon Ball)
Gozer (Ghostbusters)
Haggunenon (HHGTTG)
Heffalump(Winnie the Pooh)
IT (Stephen King's IT)
Jason Asano (From He Who Fights With Monsters)
Kirby(Kirby)
Lord Ochu (FinalFantasyX)
Mario (Super Mario Brothers)
Meatwad (Aqua Teen Hunger Force)
My Little Pony(My Little Pony)
Pervect (MYTH Adventures)
Plastic Man (DC Comics)
Q (from Star Trek)
Rawhead Sidhe (Dresden Files)
Red Mage (Final Fantasy)
Roger Rabbit (Who framed Roger Rabbit?)
Snorlax (Pokemon™)A great fit, since:

"They can throw incredibly powerful punches and cause immense earthquakes",
is known for its huge appetite (including his ability to eat moldy food) and its sleeping.
It grows from a much smaller pokemon, Munchlax, and fits in the box as an adult (6' 11'').
Using Metronome, it could have a plot-casuality induced access to "escape from battle" abilities.
When not drawn anime style, pokemons can be downright disturbing (non-Snorlax example (https://web.archive.org/web/20200716232110/https://oyster.ignimgs.com/wordpress/stg.ign.com/2012/10/druddigon_RJPalmer.jpg)).
When you fight a static-encounter Snorlax in the games, if you do not capture it, when the fight ends the game text tells you that it has 'stomped off back to the mountains.'
Has Fissure as an egg move, whose in-game description reads: 'The user opens up a fissure in the ground and drops the foe in. The target instantly faints if it hits.' (picture (https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Fissure_VII.png))


Shadow (Babylon 5)
Shadowchild (Digger)
SMT3 and Persona 3 and 4 (Megami Tensei)
Skull (PvP)
Skywarp (Transformers)
Tonberri (Final fantasy)
Vatch (Witches of Karres)
Vorlon (Babylon 5)
Weeping Angel (Dr. Who)
Wile E. Coyote (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24577709&postcount=488) (Looney Tunes)
Ygramul (Neverending Story)
Yoshi (Super Mario Brothers)
Zoidberg (Futurama)

Section 3d: Light-Hearted Ideas
These ideas are not meant to be taken seriously, and were added to this post only because they amused me enough I wanted them recorded for posterity. Please don't read too much into them (or what they say about my sense of humour)

Inmune to blades, including scissors, but suffers from papercuts? Must be a Rock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-paper-scissors)
The most dangerous box ever (https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2178863360/h9D2EAC6A/)
The fearsome Gazebo (http://www.brunchma.com/archives/Forum13/HTML/000133.html)HotAndCold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=48090) explained (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7390002&postcount=1344):

A gazebo is obviously a powerful monster, devouring the story's PC without any chance of rebuttal.
It takes no damage from a +3 arrow, just as MitD apparently takes no damage from Miko's or Belkar's attacks.
Would you recognize a gazebo's tracks?
Or expect to find one in a jungle and even speaking in Common, for that matter?
It is, of course, a juvenile gazebo, explaining its roughly Medium size, rather than its being large enough for, y'know, people to hang out in it.
I... guess he could be a particularly ugly gazebo? Although technically speaking, the gazebo's never actually described in the story beyond its dimensions, color, and the pointiness of its top. So I guess one could argue the gazebo's horrific appearance.
The description states that the PC "awakened" the gazebo, implying that it was sleeping. Perhaps it had recently used one of its mighty and tiring abilities!

A FanboyTruly grotesque creatures, Fanboys have been known to consume vast quantities of whatever they get their hands on (including mouldy cheeseburgers), while skulking in the darkness of their 'boxes'. When inserted into fantasy fiction, they often wield great quantities of inexplicable power (Mary Sue Syndrome) and have difficulty remembering minor plot details (Gate? What gate?) They are truly the most fearsome creature any Creator can face, and yet are beautiful in that a Creator would be nothing without them. And of course, the monstrous and twisted exterior hides an innocence ill-befitting a horrendous beast, and a niceness of character little understood by those around, often causing them to be bullied by lesser souls in the vicinity.

We are all MitD in the quiet corners of our souls.
Grey_Wolf_c
1) How did Grey_Wolf_c punch Miko and her horse through a wall?
- She suggested a Tarrasque should be added, and her horse said Snarl Jr. An adrenaline-fueled rage took over.
2) Why didn't Miko or Belkar's weapons hurt Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Maintaining these threads has made him impervious to pain.
3) Why wouldn't a wizard recognize Grey_Wolf_c ?
- Keeping up with the thread means he doesn't have time to keep up his appearance so looks like a human-sasquatch mix wearing clothing.
4) Why would humans become nauseous at seeing Grey_Wolf_c ?
- No time to shower either.
5) How did Grey_Wolf_c teleport V and O-Chul to the beach with Hinjo?
- Well, you got me there.
The GiantNo, not that Giant, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?14856-The-Giant) this Giant (http://photos.imageevent.com/supplex55/supplex55vintagenwawcwpromophotos/95%20giant) Former WCW World Champion. Latterly The Big Show, and played by Paul Wight.

An actual fairy-tale Giant, a wild-haired mountain-savage, who wrestled in World Championship Wrestling from 1995 to 1999, and was booked as the son of the late Andre The Giant (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Andre_in_the_late_'80s.jpg).

1) The Escape: Can The Giant teleport?... Bizarrely enough, yes. The Giant debuted in 1995 in World Championship Wrestling as part of the 'Dungeon Of Doom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dungeon_of_Doom)' stable, portraying a similar role that the MITD has in OOTS. The powerful dragon controlled by 'The Taskmaster' Kevin Sullivan (http://lzimages.lazygirls.info/dungeon_of_doom_the_taskmaster_kevin_sullivan_HD7S 58BQ.sized). In this role, he actually could teleport. And teleported to and from the titular 'Dungeon of Doom.'

2) The attack and defense portrayed in the tower scene: At Halloween Havok 1995 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_Havoc#1995), he attacked Hulk Hogan on the roof of the Cobo Arena in Detroit. He fell from the roof of a 12,000 seater stadium straight to the concrete parking lot below, and not only lived to tell the tale, but wrestled later that night. Talk about damage reduction. As for attack? Well... He's been showed to flip cars and throw "350 Pounds, solid steel ring-steps" in his time... I think you'd need at least a Strength of 28 to do that last one if you had the Hulking Hurler Prestige Class's ability 'Really Throw Anything.' He's choke-slammed two large men at once, in real life, where the men are resisting, rather than helping you lift them up, that's basically dead-lifting around 500 pounds at once.
Also, he beat Hulk Hogan. No one beats Hulk Hogan. Ever. Seriously. Because Hulk Hogan is an arrogant, selfish old c-... Never mind.

3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus: He's been portrayed as gross, scary, impressive and interesting. And plenty of people paid to watch him.

4) Isn't one of the impossible categories: He's definitely a humanoid.

5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich: Debuted on US TV in 1995

6) Size no bigger than Huge: Only seven foot tall, 484 or so pounds.

7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects: Yup.

8) Smaller and eats less than his father: He was portrayed as the son of Andre The Giant (http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/135089/4673684-5125271151-Andre.png) a seven foot four, 520 pound man who is said to have consumed 7,000 calories a day in wine alone.

9) Small, but will get much bigger: The Big Show is significantly fatter now than he was when he was known as The Giant.

10) Could he eat Redcloak whole?: Well... He has the appetite of a Giant, soon after his debut, he became tremendously fat, and since he was booked as a literal Giant, a mountain-dwelling savage from 'Parts Unknown,' he probably isn't above eating moldy cheeseburgers.

11) 'Wouldn't expect to see on of these here [In The Jungle]': You wouldn't expect to bump into a wrestler in a jungle... Well, you wouldn't! Would you? I wouldn't!

12: Surprised he can speak, and in common?: Weirdly enough, despite speaking English very well, the interviewers and commentators would often pretend that they couldn't tell what The Giant was saying, kind of like Stewie in Family Guy.
Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon
The MitD is a green dragon that also has five different green dragon ancestors in his family, so he has five instances of the Half-Dragon template.

Pros:
Template combination is guessable, because it's not unusual for the Stickyverse. Half-dragon hybrids are common: Girard is half-dragon, Enor is half-dragon ogre, Durkon's parents fought a half-dragon troll. The ancient black dragon says in #628 that she's expected that her son invites "that nice green dragon girl", showing that green dragons sometimes interbreed with dragons. #555 has a joke about a half-orc half-orc orc.
63 strength to explain tower scene.
Two claw attacks for 1d6 damage and a bite attack of 1d8 damage, weaker than the attacks of an ordinary young adult green dragon. Lets Miko and horse survive tower scene.
36 natural armor, 25 base armor class, 5/magic DR explains why Belkar's and Miko's attacks fail. Half-Dragon template says "Natural armor improves by +4" so the bonus from multiple instances will stack.
"Elongated features […] and exaggerated teeth and claws" and "more formidable" both stacked five times to explain circus scene. The wizard in circus has seen green dragons, but not one with such grotesque features. He's just the kind of misshapen mutant that a freak show wants to show off. Xykon finds him ugly.
Misshapen features explain why Belkar can't recognize his tracks.
Overly long claws and 10 dexterity makes it difficult to pull the rope.
People can still recognize that he is a dragon, explaining "one of these".
29 intelligence, 19 wisdom, and 29 charisma, may have skills in Bluff and Knowledge. That is why he can bluff Xykon once he actually starts to think, and recognize the half a ritual.
Large size to fit in box.
Can fly, which is how he can get up to the entrances higher up in the mountain without leaving a trace.
Dragons grow as they age, which explain that MitD's father was BIG.
Two eyes.
Not immune to mind affecting effects.

Con:
Doesn't explain escape scene.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 3: Continued

Section 3e: Proposed ideas
Ideas that have been proposed, but cannot explain all major MitD scenes (See 3a)
Aboleth Mage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/aboleth.htm)Pros:

28 Strength
Effective caster level 10th would allow him to have teleport
Appearance: "The aboleth is a revolting fishlike amphibian" but charisma 14 could count as "beautiful" for someone that isn't too nauseated by fish-like beings
Can only speak languages that are used underwater - would be surprising to hear him speak out of the water, and in common no less.
Very rare to be found outside of their natural environment (water)
Grows bigger as it ages - father would be bigger than MitD
Eating creatures gives him their memories, which would explain why he doesn't like to eat babies (no memories - bland and boring food) and why he likes stew (he never knows what he's going to get, it's a big surprise!)

Cons:
This creature could be considered the "almost" FBS suggestion.

Strength is almost to the 30 used as rule of thumb for the tower scene, but not quite there
Huge, almost small enough to fit in the box - and if made any smaller by age or template, he'd be too weak
CR17 is almost to the rule of thumb expected power level
3 eyes - almost the right amount - vertically stacked.
Study-based spellcasting is a poor fit for MitD, who is never seen studying spells

Akvan Div Prince (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/div.html)Too tall. probably not ugly enough. Might be too recent.
Alhoon (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Alhoon)Undead, not strong enough
Anaxim (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#anaxim) (SRD or ELH 158)Construct, no teleportation.
Andeloid (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/andeloid.php)Can absorb the powers of other creatures, virtually explaining everything with the right set of creatures, but seems unlikely that MitD has had a chance to do so
Angel of DecayUndead
Astral DragonToo big when powerful enough (if it ever is powerful enough - top strength of 24 is insufficient); too weak when the right size. Too recognisable due to being a dragon for it to fit the circus scene. Fluff about staying a child until mating does fit MitD.
Astral Dreadnaught (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/crypt/astral_dreadnaught.htm)only one eye, gargantuan, can't explain the escape
Asura (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Asura_%283.5e_Creature%29) (high CR homebrew)Can cause earthquake, looks weird. Can't explain the escape. Unsurprising to hear it speak in common. Too many eyes.
Atropal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) (SRD or ELH 159)Undead: doesn't eat or sleep.
Audrey IINot that ugly (people flock to see it), unclear if it can teleport others/grant wishes (up for interpretation), unclear if its strength is sufficient to punch people through walls and send them flying.
Bauhei (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page39&p=4301770#post4301770)Unclear if it can be called "one of these". Doesn't fit the circus scene (awe doesn't induce vomiting)
Aurumach RilmaniToo humanoid looking to fit the circus scene.
Baku (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=643)28 STR, probability travel works as teleport or a critical roll, fairly unrecognisable. However, also not specially disgusting looking.
Barghest (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/barghest.htm) (SRD or MM 22)Pros:

Eats a lot, and gets stronger as he eats (reference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html))
Greater Barghest has dimension door

Cons:

Not really all that strong, (max 20)
No earthquake ability
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well
can speak (but not in common)


Black Troll (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=506)Large, ugly as every troll, but looking demonic on top. Can cast Teleportation without error, explaining the escape (but not what the hell a troll is doing with that spell and 10 INT and CHA). Unfortunately, not quite strong enough.
Brachyurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/brachyurus.htm) (SRD or ELH 170)Strong and relatively ugly, but can't explain the escape
Brainstealer DragonOld ones are strong and have spells that can explain the escape, but are too big to fit in the box. Young ones that do fit are too weak. All of them can explain the circus scene. Published a year after strip #100
Braxat (MM2 37)Not particularly strong, CR9 and can only explain the escape with Dimension Door.
Brood Keeper (MM3) Can't explain the escape, the fear aura doesn't fit the circus scene, too big, not strong enough. Rich may have had a hand in their creation.
Bigfoot Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Bulette (Land Shark)Can't explain the escape.
CerebrilithCan´t explain the escape. Insufficient Strength
Centaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/centaur.htm) (SRD or MM 32)Not strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.
Cherub (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1478) (four-faced version)Pros:

Strength of 36.
"four-sided head with the faces of a lion, ox, eagle, and man," which can be disgusting
Wish as an SLA, easily explains the escape
Has earthquake as a power, could explain the stomp.
Large size
Can be advanced to gargantuan, meaning that MitD's "father" could be either another larger cherub who was raising him or just a god specifically.
Strange to find a cherub in a rainforest.

Cons:

Like most angelic hosts and demonic armies, it is hard to understand how it went unrecognised in the circus act - most people would have heard of them at their religious service of choice.
OotS Cherubs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html) don't look like that.
Four sets of eyes
Unsurprising it can talk common (can talk all languages)
SBGH would probably not likely sell divine beings into slavery
Immune to mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Doesn't really fit with why Xykon and Redcloak expect him to be "scary" and eat children


Chi You (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_You)Vaguely defined. Weird looking, but not particularly revolting. Can speak.
ChichimecNo explanation for the escape
ChronotyrynLarge, and can teleport, but has low Str (26), isn't particularly revolting-looking (it's a bird with arms) and not surprising it can speak ("dual voice").
CildabrinInsufficient strength, no explanation for the escape
Cipactli (Dragon #317)Colossal creature that causes earthquakes by stomping. No Escape and weak Circus explanation. No manipulator limbs.
Coco, elCreature from Spanish mythology that hides in the shadows and eats (misbehaving) children. Unclear if he is strong enough, probably can't teleport, and both the shadow hiding and children eating are the opposite of MitD's
CoeurlCR4, nowhere near powerful enough. Can't explain the escape
Concordant Killer (MM4)Created too late to be MitD. Not strong enough. Can't explain the escape
Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)Strong and with access to miracle, but only through cleric spells, which would give him Animate Dead, which MitD is known not to be able to cast
Couatl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/couatl.htm)Cannot explain the escape (caster level not high enough) the tower or the circus (not particularly revolting). CR10, nowhere near powerful enough. Since it has cleric abilities, should be able to help RC
Crypt ThingUndead, can't explain the tower scene. Unclear how someone could claim not to have seen a human skeleton before. Unsurprising it can talk
CrystalleCan cast Wish, but limited since the ioun stone has limited charges. STR 33. Cons: appearance not particularly disgusting; Elemental: doesn't eat or sleep.
Dao (MoP 172)aka "earth genie". Pros:
Can grant wishes
Can cast earthquake
Has a "shove" ability to push enemies
Cons:
Unsurprising it can talk
CR6, little strength, no defences
Not unusually ugly
Unclear how father would be "bigger and hungrier"
Deus Ex Machina personifiedWould be a Rich creation
DisenchanterNot strong enough, cannot explain the escape, not powerful enough to be Xykon's Ace in the Hole.
Displacer Beast (MM 60)Can't explain the escape, not strong enough
Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm) (SRD or MM 68 + most MMs)Pros:

Decent defences
they like to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Draknor (http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1061)Sprouts from the ground, but we have seen MitD in high floors of towers.
DraedenLudicrously large (1,000ft per HD), would not fit in the box. Can raise the dead
Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)Pros:

Huge Strength
Wish (Sorcerer Levels)
Ugly (with high Charisma)

Cons:

Colossal - requires him to be a runt, which brings problems re: high-level spell access
Two Heads - requires a reason why it lost one (e.g. decapitation)
Immunity to all spells of the enchantment school

Dream Larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva) (SRD or ELH 161)Pros:

Worst Nightmare ability explains circus' reactions (as long as it is a 'young' dream larva, so that it is not immediately lethal)
Very strong (42), high CR, defences and DR
Dreamscape allows teleportation, with a certain amount or rules bending (see here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7485816&postcount=77) for an explanation)

Cons:

Immune to mind-affecting effects
Dreamscape doesn't explain the escape all that well
Not known for its appetite, or its need to sleep
Unclear if a young dream larva can even exist, and would be less lethal than an adult one.


Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm) (SRD or MM 97)Unstated how it would cause the escape, it cannot provide material for undead
EfreetNot powerful enough in D&D, regardless of how powerful they were in the original mythology
Empyrean5e monster, and therefore published way too late for MitD
Enveloper (1e FF)Insufficient strength, it's main ability of absorbing powers (thus explaining the escape scene), would also give MitD knowledge that would be at odds with his known naïvety and ignorance. Difficulty explaining the circus scene.
Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)Pros:
Looks like a mass of black tentacles centered around a large maw and a trunklike body.
Large, but when in darkness or shadowy illumination, it can fit into spaces that appear too small for it
The base species prefers eating children "and others too small and weak to fight back"
Cons:
Can't explain the escape scene
Probably too weak: CR7, STR 22
Epic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonepic.htm) (SRD or ELH 181)Pros:

Have access to Wish
Very strong
Like most dragons, it likes to eat and sleep

Cons:

They don't get the kind of strength and powers needed until they are way too big for the box.
Beautiful (sp. prismatic)
They are very recognisable, and thus don't match the circus' reactions.

Essence ReaverPublished in 2007, too late for MitD.
Fhoimoren GiantNo explanation for the escape. Weak defences.
Fiendwurm (MM2 99)strong and known for eating constantly, can't talk, can send people to the Abyss, but that explains the escape very badly if at all, and lack of limbs and gargantuan size are problematic.
Fihyr, Greater (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/Monsters.php?ID=822)too many eyes, not strong enough, not challenging enough, can't explain the escape.
Formian Myrmarch (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Formian_Myrmarch)Not strong enough to explain the tower scene
Gelatinous CubeFits none of the major scenes
General Ox (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=1912)Sorcerer with access to 9th level spells, and STR 36. Doesn't quite match the circus scene's public reactions
Genie/Djinn (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm) (SRD or MM 114)while able to cast wish, they can talk, they are not particularly ugly, and they're nowhere near powerful enough for MitD
GeriviarNo good explanation for the Escape. Not strong enough.
Ghour (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ghour)Decently strong, but insufficient CR and too big. Being a demon, it's morality and 'father' doesn't match well MitD's.
Giant Snowman (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/gitpkick/MustHaveBeenSomeMagic.png)Large strength and high HP, but no other known powers to explain the other scenes (especially the escape).
Giant Space Hamster (http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/pdf/animal/giant_space_hamster.pdf)Not strong enough, no magical powers, not ugly enough for the circus scene
Gibbering Orb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gibberingOrb.htm) (SRD or ELH 191)Can't stomp due to lack of limbs. Shouldn't leave tracks. Too many eyes and mouths. No explanation for Escape, except far-fetched "ate someone with access to wish the day before".
Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)Unsurprising it can talk, wouldn't be exhibited as a circus freak, wouldn't be hunted by the SBGH, is now known to be dead.
Gloom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm)Fairly strong, very powerful, but has no eyes, shadow walk isn't quite good enough to explain the escape and "tall, very dark, elf-eared person with a cloak" is not exactly "I've never seen anything like it before"
GoristroHuge, and can't teleport, or explain the escape in any other way. See also Pit Fiend.
Gray Render (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/grayRender.htm) (SRD or MM 138)can't explain the escape, or the tower. Not particularly good at explaining the circus. Too many eyes (6).
GrendelOriginal text says it is immune to weapons. Unclear how it accounts for the escape scene, except if it were demon-spawn due to conversion to D&D, which is a very big stretch. Difficulty addressing its strength (enough to break benches, but not the full hall).
Grey Slaad (MM 231)can teleport people both within a plane and between planes, but so-so strength
GrootslangCannot explain the escape. Did not exist when #100 was posted
Guardinal, Leonal Not strong enough, aura of fear for evil creatures should have been seen in the comic.
Gug (CoC)(From Call of Cthulhu) Very ugly, and causes loss of sanity when looked at. Has a small chance of knowing how to teleport, but is not strong enough, particularly if young version is assumed due to size problems.
Ha-Naga (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/haNaga.htm) (SRD or ELH 195)Access to wish, and fairly strong although, being Colossal, too big for the umbrella (when moving), and lack of limbs make several scenes difficult to explain (like pulling on the rope or painting the doors). Not particularly vomit-inducing. Proposing a child version reduces the strength below appropriate amount. Telekinesis is not strong enough to push a horse through a wall, and MitD said it was a hitting lightly game, not a cast-a-spell-to-break-the-wall game. Can raise undead (or could by retraining upon level up), which MitD cannot "without gaining 5 levels of cleric". Can speak multiple languages (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm), and thus would not be surprising it talked in common.
Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm) (SRD or XPH 200)Strong and psionic, but can talk, unclear how it accounts for circus scene and the escape.
Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)Dragon, and thus can't explain the circus scene properly. Too big (huge)
HephaestusGod: Immune to mind control
Hoary Hunter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hoaryHunter.htm) (SRD or ELH 197)Very strong, can plane shift, but not revolting enough to explain the circus' reactions
HollyphantNot quite strong enough, can't explain the escape, too adorably cute for the circus scene
Hunefer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hunefer.htm)Undead; due to paralysing aura can't explain the circus scene.
IllithidNot strong enough, can't explain the escape
Illithid Elder BrainHas good explanations for the Escape and Circus, but not quite enough strength for the Tower (while still having good defences). Does not have teeth or eyes. Requires a pool of water to live in.
Illurien (MM5)Female, Insufficient strength
Ilsidahur (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page25&p=4025832&viewfull=1#post4025832)Demonic (difficulty explaining alignment, probably no parent), difficulty explaining the circus scene. Specific stats linked are too recent for MitD (a 1988 version exists)
Incubus Not powerful enough, difficulty changing alignments, can't explain the circus scene
Infernal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#infernal) (SRD or ELH 164)Immune to mind affecting spells, unclear how it accounts for the escape scene (it's greater teleport is self-only). Can animate dead, which RC claims MitD cannot.
Intellect DevourerStrength too low. No explanation for the Escape
JabberwockDifficult to gauge if it fits or not, since the jabberwock is never really described. However, being unique, it doesn't fit the comment of MitD being "one of these". D&D versions tend to be too weak, and lack teleportation.
JuiblexPros:

High strength.
High DR
Teleport without error
Appearance matches the Circus scene and there is even the fact that some people get obsessed with Juiblex and become thralls to explain the bit about beauty.
Eats everything. Yeah. Everything.
High knowledge skills that would explain the MitD knowing unexpected things. i.e. the ritual.

Cons:

Unique creature (likely, his children wouldn't have the above powers)
No reason, assuming the BGH were not confused, for it to be surprising he can speak common.
Attacks are always acidic in nature - does not match the Tower scene
Too many eyes, no teeth
Alignment issues (see section 1e)

King-Kong descendantProblem addressing strength and size at the same time. Cannot explain the escape scene.
KlickerNo explanation for the escape, didn't exist before comic #100
KlurichirSeveral versions exists: the one that are strong enough cant explain the escape, and viceversa. Demonic, so has some issues with Mit'd morality.
Kyton, Eremite (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/kyton/kyton-eremite)Can't explain the escape, since it can only self-teleport. Created after strip #100
Lammassu, CelestialNot strong enough, can cast cleric spells.
Lammassu, GreaterThe 2e 'Greater Lammasu' looked promising, but the 3 or 3.5 versions that have been reviewed fell short across the board.
LaogzedDemigod: can be mind controlled
Lava ChildrenCan't explain the circus scene (neither ugly nor particularly strange), unclear if it can explain the escape
Lethus Dragonpublication date 7 years after strip #100. Otherwise, fits the FBS rather nicely, but not the general fluff of MitD
Li Lung (Earth Dragon) (OA)Pros:
Yellow eyes
Reasonably strong, potentially challenging, and correctly sized up to young adult
Damage reduction
Earthquake AND a powerful roar
Plane Shift
Cons:
plane shift doesn't explain the escape well
Personality (sleepiness, constant desire to consume, etc) doesn't match typical li lung's description
As a young adult, it is not powerful enough
Loculi1E monster, so hard to tell if he'd be strong enough. Fairly disturbing, and might have access to teleport items
Marut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#marut)Construct, has a vendetta against undead, embodiment of a morality plane
MyrmixicusTeleport self+objects only (although with a very generous weight limit). 33 strength. Demonic looking, which might not quite explain the circus scene. Embodiment of a morality plane. Might not have the ability to breath air, since it's a aquatic demon.
Nabassu (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060605a) (WotC book previews or Fiendish Codex 1)Not particularly strong, can only teleport themselves, and kill any level-1s that look at them, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act.
Neh-Thalggu (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/nehThalggu.htm) (SRD or ELH 206)incorporeal - meaning it has 0 STR and can't explain the punching of Miko or her horse (it could have bitten them, but not hit them)
Neo-otyugh (2e MM?)Can't explain the escape. Unclear strength (otyugh is definitely too weak). Too many eyes (3).
Neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm) (SRD or XPH 204)Pros:
Fairly high strength (30)
Psionic Teleport at will
Vomit-inducing, since it's a gigantic worm with tentacles
Heavy eating
Rarely communicates in a meaningful way
Its ability to Trace Teleport would explain how it knew where to send O-Chul and V
Cons:
Difficulty explaining the earthquake and the stomp, lacking legs.
Defences not that great
No eyes
Gargantuan
Nessie the Loch Ness MonsterToo big for the umbrella, can't explain the escape scene, difficulty existing in dry land
Nightmare Beast (MM2 161)Pros:

Fairly strong
spends most of its time looking for food, and then sleeping
Dimension door
Can't talk

Cons:

Not defensively impressive - Miko would not have had trouble hurting it.
Dimension door doesn't explain the escape well.
Red eyes
Everyone in the city should've been having terrible nightmares

Nightscape Battlemage (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/47.html)Can't explain the circus scene or the tower scene. Unsurprising it can talk
NycalothInsufficient strength, no good explanation for the circus scene or the tower scene.
Oni, Go-Zu and Me-ZuSeveral varieties, none really strong enough, and with no way to explain the escape.
Onyx Worm (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20020808a)not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Ophan AngelGood stats, but hundreds of eyes, and no good explanation for the escape.
Outsider, The (H.P. Lovecraft)undead
Paizo Golem Construct. Can't explain the escape scene or the circus scene. Created 5 years after strip #100
Phaerimm (Monsters of Faerun 70)Very, very ugly, access to wish through sorcerer levels, but not strong enough for the tower scene, and has no eyes.
Phane (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#phane)No explanation for the escape. Incorporeal, so can't push or pull. Permanent Null Time field doesn't fit the Circus scene. Attacks don't fit the Tower scene.
Phasm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm)Telepathic, so surprising it can speak. Not strong enough, can't explain the escape.
Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) (SRD or MM 57)Pros:
Strong, good defences
Highly skilled in Knowledge Arcane, -Religion, -Planes and in Spellcraft which would explain how the MitD could identify the ritual with merely a glance.
Access to Wish

Cons:

Pit Fiends probably don't have children and aren't child-like. (From Roy's Archon's words here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0493.html), it seems OotS-verse has normal "advancement" of celestial beings. On the other hand, two demons have mentioned parents)
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead
Circus scene presents two problems: demonic creatures are not difficult to recognise (in a broad sense, if not the specific type), and the reaction one would expect is fear, not vomiting.
Rich's comments in W&XPs seem to indicate that morality planes creatures can't change alignments more than slightly.

Planetar Angel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) (SRD or MM 11)Has cleric levels
Pooka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Púca)No good explanations for the escape or the tower, being of the trickster fairy archetype
PrimusThe supreme modron, has a bunch of powers, including teleport, but is too unique to be MitD (more a position than a creature type), is not particularly revolting, and cannot be mind controlled.
Prismasaurus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/prismasaurus.htm)No explanation for the escape, immune to mind-affecting "attacks" (which may or may not include what Xykon did to MitD). In the circus scene, people aren't being blinded or hit by prismatic sprays
Psammead (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Children_and_It#The_Psammead)Can grant wishes, but is not strong, is too small and being damage by water is something that does not match well with MitD's life in the rainforest. Also, Psammeads cannot grant their own wishes, so it cannot explain the earthquake or the tower scene.
Qlippoth (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/qlippoth.html)Specifically, the Augnagar: explains circus and tower, but can't explain the escape. Immune to mind control.
Quaraphon Bully(MM3)Not strong enough, no explanation for the Escape, too many eyes.
Reality warper (e.g. Superman's Fifth-Dimensional Imp)Their reality revision power would explain the escape scene, but not the tower scene. A reality warper can cause anything they desire to become true, but in the tower scene, the exact opposite of MitD's desires (to hit as lightly as possible) happened.
Sapphire Dragon, Ancient"Ancient" doesn't really fit MitD's personality. Slightly too big. Barely strong enough. Can't really explain the Circus scene
SarrukhNot strange enough for the circus scene. Not strong enough for the Tower Scene. Not surprising it can speak.
SCP-682 (http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/scp-682)Published in 2007, didn't exist during comic #100. Can't explain the escape (except by an undefined unrestricted ability to adapt). The personalities are very different. Arguably too powerful to be MitD.
ShadeCan't explain the escape, nor the tower scene. It only fits the circus scene if it is a shade with no light sensitivity. Don't eat, breath or age. Their lack of metabolism means they also do not emit odors. The best fitting version is also a homebrew which didn't exist when MitD was picked.
Shadow Dragon (Draconomicon 191)
Pros:
It can cast Dimension Door as a supernatural ability once per day.
Its size is Large as a young adult and adult, and Medium if it is juvenile.
It has damage resistance 5 when it becomes a young adult.
It's Shadowy and gets 9/10ths concealment from this....
Cons:
Not incredibly strong
Doesn't explain the earthquake or the escape

Shadowcloak ElderShadow Blend doesn't match MitD's instructions to stay in the shadows (other than in Xykon's tower), not quite strong enough, can't talk, can't explain the escape.
Shedu, Greater (http://dedpihto.narod.ru/games/Monsters1/MM00260.htm) (FF) Not strong enough. Unclear what its stats are in 3.5. Not surprising it can talk.
Shoggoth (CoC)Unclear if it can explain the escape, it may drive the public of the circus insane.
Shirokinukatsukami Not enough strength (20), can't explain the escape due to only self-teleporting
Siabrie (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20020817a)Insufficient strength, female, beautiful, can't account for the escape.
Slime ChildPublished after #100
Smiling MedinaHomebrewed after strip 100. Not strong enough for the tower scene.
Snark/BoojumCannot explain the escape scene, and most likely cannot explain the earthquake or tower scenes (although the descriptions are vague)
Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar) (SRD or MM 12)Cons:

Solars don't really have children and aren't child-like.
It is not surprising it can talk.
It can reanimate the dead

Sphinx (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sphinx.htm) (SRD or MM 232)Not really strong enough; the suggested idea was a kind of rock sphinx, but that can't be found in the stat'ed lists.
Starspawn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9404200&postcount=811) (aka Son of Cthulhu)Drives people looking at him insane, thus having difficulty explaining its success as a circus act. Strength high, but not impressively so.
Stench KowWith a CR 3-4, it is not a credible threat to the order. Can't explain the escape or the tower scenes.
Sun Wukong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_wukong)Talks, no father, not part of a group, vegetarian.
Tarasque, original mythological version (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasque)Probably would be the Tarrasque in OotS. Can't explain the escape
Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) (SRD or MM 242)Pros: High Strength, mythologically, the Titan Uranus ate his children.
Cons: The only way to rescue O-Chul is by using Maze, which fits badly. It wouldn't be surprising it can talk.
Titan, Elder (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elder_Titan)Not surprising it can talk. Can't explain the circus.
Titanic Stalker42 Strength, SLA Earthquake 5/day. OK defences (DR 10, regen 3). No explanation for the escape, colossal
TrollNot strong enough, can't explain the escape, has difficulty explaining the circus (trolls are fairly common creatures, not something that unrecognisable).
Truly Horrid Umber Hulk (MM 248)Fairly strong, confusing gaze might explain the circus' reactions. However, doesn't have teleportation abilities, or earthquake.
Tulani EledrinToo pretty and elf-looking for the circus scene. Not quite strong enough. Can cast clerical spells.
TuraglasUnique demon lord, therefore not "one of those". Has an alternate form that could be confused with a "turagathshnee" (a demon group), but that shape has no eyes, the Turaglas is too weak in that form, and yet is significantly larger than them, which does not match the "so small" comments.
Two-headed CyclopsTwo heads, but only one eye each, lazy & fairly ugly, but can't explain the escape and are not that strong. They can also speak, but only elven, not common.
Ulgurstasta SorcererUndead. Eats (swallows whole) bodies to produce undead, so should have been able to help RC. Gargantuan. Defences too weak to explain the Tower scene or Belkar's attack.
UltrolothDemonic (morality problems), insufficient strength & defences, can't explain the escape
Uluu ThalonghNot surprising to be found in a jungle/rainforest. Unclear if it accounts for the escape.
Umbral Blot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm)(Blackball)Construct, too weak (Str 10) for the tower scene. Can't explain the earthquake's stomp. Appearance doesn't match circus reactions.
Umpleby (1st ed FF)Can't explain the circus scene, or the escape.
UnbodiedCannot explain the escape nor the tower
Utukku (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?66577-Creature-Catalog-new-3-5-conversions/page3&p=1294154&viewfull=1#post1294154)Insufficient strength. 2nd ed version has poor defences, 3rd ed. version can't explain the escape.
Vasuthant (MM3 182)Undead. Can't explain the escape
VaarsuviusCreated for the comic. Doesn't eat meat. Not strong enough. Explanation that turns a wizard into MitD by means of the Snarl is completely unlikely and unsupported by evidence
Vermiurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/vermiurge.htm) (SRD or ELH 226)revolting sight, but can't explain the escape, can speak and is immune to mind-affecting spells.
VelociraptorCannot explain the escape or the tower scene
Void Yai OniCan't explain the escape
Warforged (Eberron or MM3 190)Construct
Wendigo (FF 186)Very strong, fairly ugly, famously hungry creatures. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
WharlyskLives in the rainforest. Huge. No explanation for the escape. Not strong enough
Wild ThingsCannot explain the escape
Wingless Wonder (http://www.mojobob.com/roleplay/monstrousmanual/w/winleswo.html)Insufficiently strong. 2nd ed, no explanation for being outside the pit. Can only explain the escape if it is a transformed wizard with sufficient spells. Can't explain the circus.
Wolf-in-sheep's-clothing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/wolf-in-sheep-s-clothing)Can't explain the escape. Can't explain the circus, since he explicitly does nothing during his act, so all the public would see is a tree stump with maybe a dead animal on top. Can't explain the tower scene (STR 17, CR 8)
Wumpus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunt_the_Wumpus)Doesn't explain the escape.
YaliStrong, can psionic teleport, but cannot explain the circus scene.
Yeti Very strong, presumed ugly even though no-one ever manages to see him. However, no magic, and thus doesn't explain the escape.
Xor-Yost (Planar Handbook 122)Can't explain the escape
Zodar (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) (FF 199)Pros:
Very strong
Can cast wish once in a lifetime, and any spell three times in a lifetime
Human-sized
Invulnerable to all damage except bludgeoning explains his resistance to Belkar's and Miko's attacks.
Cons:
Does not explain the circus scene, since it basically looks like a man in a black armor
No reason why he'd remember a bigger father, or why Oona would expect him to grow.
The official version of Zodar is a construct, which would discard him; there is, however, an unofficial version (http://lost.spelljammer.org/ShatteredFractine/critters/monsters/zodar.html) that retains the 2.0 version that was monstrous, and that existed before the official one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Section 4: Thread Information

Section 4a: Thread Rules
This is a curated thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12577293&postcount=2), and as such obeys the following rules:

CuratorI, Grey Wolf, am the curator of the thread.
Responsibilities:

Maintain the thread
Remember arguments and canon
Answer polite questions about MitD and the thread


What I can't do

I have no official authority
I am not a moderator
I cannot ban discussion of issues I consider settled
I cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed (but I can publicly withdraw from them); however, see also section on Inappropriate Topics below
I cannot prevent any given poster from participating (but can Ignore them)
I cannot make executive decisions on what is or is not included in the first post outside the guidelines stated in this post.


Adding information to the first post
To add something to the first post needs two positive votes to do so. "Positive votes" means two more people in favour of the idea than against it.

In normal operation, that essentially means convincing me to add it. The original proponent and me make the 2 votes, assuming no-one objects. If I disagree, the proponent will then need two other posters to agree with him/her (assuming no-one else but me disagrees). And so on: if 3 people are opposed, five need to be in favour, etc.

Why not simple majority? Because that is perilously close to a draw. With only one vote up or down, someone might come in a day later and vote against the idea would mean that we open the door to having to continually add and remove things from the first post - I want to prevent that as much as possible. This way, a vote against the change coming after the change still leaves a simple majority in favour of it (if would take two votes against the change after the fact for it to be reverted).

The only exception to the rule is the refreshes. When I do a refresh of the first post, I will not require to get anyone to agree with me; instead, I will publish a list of all changes as I make them, and when it is over, two objections will be enough to remove a change. For those doing the math at home, that is only one positive vote to remove it (I'd naturally be opposed, since I just added it), but since it got added only with one vote (mine), it's fair to remove it also with only one vote.

For major reworking of the first post, such as the issue with the definition of FBS, removing or adding whole sections, etc, it will need to be put to general vote. To request a vote to make a change to the OP, a proponent must obtain the backing of two other participants. The vote will then be held when the curator can set it up, or at refresh, whichever comes soonest.

Inappropriate Topics
The following topics are considered by consensus inappropriate for the thread. Note that no mod has weighted on either, so the easiest way forward if you want to discuss them is to first get mod approval:

Intellectual Property ("copyrighted") creatures not belonging to WotC. Due to section "Inappropriate Topics", subsection "Professional Advice" of board rules, discussion of laws is verboten in this forum. Since the biggest objection to copyrighted creatures is whether or not Rich would be legally allowed to use them, every such creature proposed quickly devolved into a discussion of applicable laws, which is not allowed. For the purposes of this thread, any creature created after Mickey Mouse (1923) is currently under copyright in the US.
Please also see this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18959523&postcount=2) explaining the rationale behind the blanket ban on all copyright and copyright discussion, and especially the section on fair use.
MitD's personal alignment: not that of his species, but his personally. Consensus is that his alignment cannot be tied to that of his species (see section 1e). It is a separate enough topic that it should have its own thread. If V can have a thread for gender and a separate one for alignment, MitD can have one for his species (this one) and a separate one for his alignment. At least until the mods say otherwise.

Section 4b: Voting Rules
Major changes to the first post may be put to consensus vote. In those cases, the following rules will be followed:

Public vote: votes will be posted in the thread, although please be conscious of both spamming rules and the general discouragement of short posts. I will compile all votes in the original voting post for verification and record keeping.
Multiple votes per person: you can vote for more than one option. Do so in order of preference.
Vote counting: will not be first past the post; instead, alternative vote system (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y3jE3B8HsE) will be used.
Vote length: Until a day passes without anyone else voting.
Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead. Generally, though, I will clearly articulate which options I will expect voters to do if they win, usually on the basis of the effort involved. If I do not say anything, you can assume that I'm happy to implement every option myself.
Voting options: If you feel the options are not to your liking, you can vote for a new option by describing it in your post. Give it a letter for ease of voting.
Changing Votes: You can change your vote at any time before the end of the voting.

Voting record

Aug-2013 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15886318&postcount=369); Result: "Size no bigger than huge" & "no immunity to mind control" added to FB requirements
Mar-2019 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23792722&postcount=1036); Result:No change
Aug-2019 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24081940&postcount=920); Result: No change
Jul-2020 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24618514&postcount=9); Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Huge, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base species



Section 4c: FAQ

Do I have to read all of the first post before jumping in?No, but you should exercise good sense and read the sections most likely to be related to what you are about to post.

If you want to propose a creature, scan the proposed creatures list to see if it is already there, and read both section 3a (to see how your idea stacks up against the current "best of the crop") and the frequently proposed (in case your idea is already there - in this last case, you need to address all the cons listed in your first post).

If you want to propose an explanation for a MitD characteristic, check section 2 for it, and see what the general consensus of the thread for the characteristic is. If it is a scene, rather than a characteristic, you may have read the whole section to see where that scene is involved.

For other situations, reading section 4 and this FAQ is a good start. If in doubt, you can ask me, the curator, for guidance to the best sections to read.
When is the first post updated?Updates of details that strike me as important, typos, small corrections and other quick things can happen at any time.
When is a proposal added to the first post?Generally once the discussion has tapered to a general conclusion that allows me to place it in the appropriate section. For a proposal to be added, it needs to meet the following:

Be minimally defended. If just the name is mentioned, it won't get added
Not meant as a joke. If it was meant as one, it will only be added if I find it exceptionally funny (or with two positive votes).
Not retracted by the author. If the author retracts it and no-one else is in favour, it won't get added.

Why is my idea not a FBS?Probably because it doesn't meet the requirements which by current consensus are:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (unless it is an exception)
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
6) Strength insufficient once reduced to MitD's size
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
Wouldn't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be legal under fair use or parody?A detailed answer would count as legal advice, and can't therefore be further discussed (see Section 4a - Inappropriate topics). Thread consensus is that neither fair use nor parody are applicable to MitD, but agree or disagree, discussion of IP non-D&D monsters is not allowed in this thread per the board rules.
Can't a non-D&D copyrighted creature be discussed, ignoring the legal status and only discussing its pros and cons?In theory, yes, but in practice the biggest con is its legal status, especially if the creature is a half-decent fit. The fact of the matter is that in practice, any non-D&D IP creature quickly descends into a legal discussion.
Isn't every idea guessable? I mean, if someone just guessed it?"Guess" has two meanings. One is "random chance", like throwing a dart at a board. The other is "deduce". Rich intended the second one, as he clarified when he says "I trust that someone will figure it out eventually". He is dropping clues, and expects us to be able to eventually figure it out, presumably once we have all the clues.
Since you haven't found the solution yet, is it possible you are doing something wrong?Not necessarily. Ideas come to this thread slowly. For example, our current best fits were not suggested until late in the second thread and early third, and the explanations for the escape only included the stray dimensional lock as of start of the fifth thread. Besides, there is no way to know if we have found the solution. Balloons won't fall from the ceiling the moment someone says the correct species; for all we know, we have already found the creature Rich thought of.
Haven't you checked all D&D creatures by now?Not even close. There are literally thousand of official creatures, and beyond counting for third-party creatures published in all manner splatbooks. To illustrate just how deep the search space goes, consider that Crusher (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13164767&postcount=1078), in the space of an afternoon, checked one new source and found 5 new better-than-average candidates, and then repeated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14497821&postcount=279) the feat a few pages later. There remains a lot of material to explore. And it was 14 threads before anyone thought to suggest the xenocrysth, a remarkably good fit that you'd think would've been brought up much sooner.
Does MitD have to be a D&D creature?No, not at all. Rich has never said that MitD is a D&D creature, only that, whatever he is, he didn't make his species up.
Does MitD have to be a 3.5 D&D creature?If he was updated to 3.5, yes, since conversion is automatic. But if he was never updated, he could be a 1st Ed or 2ed creature (although the latter would need a reason why he wasn't trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with the rest of never-updated creatures).
Are templated creatures allowed?Yes and no. You can put in a guess (that will be recorded in Crusher's list of guesses post) with as many templates, class levels, HD boosts, etc as you feel is called for. But when it comes to recording suggestions (section 3), only the base creature, as described in the statblock, is listed - templates are instead classified in section 2d. The reason for this is twofold: first, as per section 2d, templates are a kind of crutch, since they can be used by any creature, so it doesn't so much explain an MitD characteristic as much as declare it is not such, since others of his species can't do what he can.

But more importantly, the number of combinations of template and creature is practically infinite. I don't want to have to insert or maintain entries for species X; species X-template A; species X - template B; species X, templates A & B; etc. - because in the end, the information all those would contain is the entry for species X, and the information under the template entries in 2d. No need to duplicate the information.

[b_jonas]

Section 6: Appearances of the MitD

Section 6a: Appearances in online strips.

#23: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) Xykon says MitD is his secret weapon, will reveal him when the time is right.
#37: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html) Xykon and MitD watch Roy set off the booby-trapped door.
#47: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html) More crystal ball watching.
#82: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0082.html) Redcloak tells MitD off for leaving mess in kitchen. More crystal ball watching. MitD is in magical darkness.
#96: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) MitD can't see gate.
#97: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html) MitD joins Redcloak in evil laugh.
#103: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0103.html) Xykon practices big reveal of MitD. Xykon is not satisfied, MitD listing spices to cook OotS with isn't scary enough.
#105: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html) Nothing.
#106: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html) Doesn't see gate again.
#109, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0109.html) #110, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html) #113: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) Nothing notable.
#114: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) Xykon prepares to reveal MitD, gets interrupted. MitD is anxious.
#117: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html) MitD wants to get revealed, Redcloak and Xykon stops him.
#120: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) Nothing notable.
#147: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0147.html) MitD asks to hold Xykon's phylactery. Redcloak refuses, MitD had broken all his toys, including “Power Ranger figures”. MitD gets fanged Hello Kitty umbrella.
#148: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) Nothing notable.
#149: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html) MitD does exposition about the initiation rituals.
#190: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) MitD teaches Redcloak evil leadership.
#191: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html) MitD doesn't want to go into abandoned castle. Xykon tells MitD should be scary and powerful.
#192: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html) Nothing notable.
#194: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0194.html) MitD asks lantern archons to light him up.
#195: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) MitD asks why Serini's diary is useful, knows about magical books.
#196: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) MitD knows about Dorukan. Doesn't know about gates.
#259: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html) Reader question time. Hobgoblin Kodrog the Slayer knows what the MitD is, took a peek under his umbrella. Dies before he answers.
#299: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0299.html) MitD wants to be a valuable member. Redcloak says he can't help in making zombies.
#331: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) Still confused about gate.
#368: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html) “Sometimes I eat to fill the loneliness.”
#369, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html) #371: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) Nothing notable.
#373: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html) Miko meets MitD.
#374: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) MitD has to stop Miko. Feels Miko's full attack as only tickles. Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his horse far through the tower wall, but they survive. Wall now has holes in the shape of Miko and horse.
#375: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) MitD finds Miko's purse with letter from High Priest of Thor to Durkon, paper cuts his tongue.
#376: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html) Xykon had asked MitD to not let Miko get away, and this was Xykon's idea.
#414: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0414.html) Nothing notable.
#415: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) MitD crystal ball watching on Miko. Confused about gate.
#422: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) MitD confused about Redcloak chewing out on decoy Xykon.
#426: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0426.html) MitD confused about three Xykons.
#428: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html) Nothing.
#431: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html) MitD confused about four Xykons. Understands the distinction between arcane and divine spells. Redcloak explains the decoy strategy to him. MitD still doesn't understand.
#447: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html) Nothing notable.
#451: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) MitD grumbles.
#463: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) MitD plays tea party with toy green dragon. Paralyzed O-Chul arrives.
#474: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) When Belkar is trying to track down Roy's corpse, he sees weird tracks that he can't recognize. They're definitely not hobgoblin footprints, or Roy's, but doesn't know what made them. MitD is still having tea party, now with dead Roy too.
#475: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) Haley and Durkon wants to retrieve Roy's body. MitD doesn't allow, shouts “Stop!” As alternate plan, Haley offers stew in exchange for Roy. Flashback to MitD eating moldy cheeseburger.
#476: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html) MitD enjoys Belkar's half-cooked vulture stew. As Haley and Belkar starts to leave, MitD hears they're the Order of the Stick, who he's supposed to devour.
#477: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) MitD thinks about whether he should eat Haley and Belkar without Xykon introducing him first. Doesn't seem to notice Belkar's attack. Haley and Belkar escape while he's still thinking. MitD stomps after demon roach's advice, causes earthquake and huge cracks in ground. “Wow! I didn't know I could do that!” Belkar lets O-Chul go, O-Chul falls back to MitD. MitD is “really tired all of a sudden. And still hungry.”
#484: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) MitD carries the paralyzed O-Chul.
#541: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0541.html) MitD is now in a large box with barred window. Wants to join Team Evil in betting game. Again bets on O-Chul escaping.
#543: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) MitD says he hoped O-Chul would escape, but it didn't work. Still doesn't know gates. Wants to get out of the box, Xykon doesn't let him.
#549: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html) MitD is friends with O-Chul, trades food with him. Tells he eats anything but babies. Wants to start a club that girls can't join.
#550: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) O-Chul questions MitD about why he's friends with Team Evil. MitD wants to play, O-Chul promises to play go with him in the morning.
#651: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) MitD tells O-Chul about his youth. He always lived in the rainforest, although need not have been born there. His dad was BIG and a big eater. The MitD doesn't know what species he is or where he belongs, but thinks Redcloak and Xykon know. O-Chul convinces the MitD to start to think for himself, with a cheesy go metaphor. We see the go board. Fart joke at MitD's expense when Vaarsuvius arrives with a bang.
#652: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html) MitD does not appear. Vaarsuvius casts Quickened Dimensional Anchor spell, its ray misses Xykon.
#654: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0654.html) MitD still wants to get the darkness lit up. O-Chul escapes, and in his parting words, reminds the MitD of the lesson from #651. MitD calls O-Chul his real name for the first time.
#658: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html) MitD is worried about O-Chul.
#661: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) MitD says O-Chul needs to escape now, because Xykon will be really angry. Calls O-Chul his friend again. Shouts “ESCAPE”, O-Chul and Vaarsuvius disappear. Xykon doesn't seem to realize it was the MitD's doing.
#662: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) MitD is sleeping (or pretending to).
#663: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html) (MitD not present.) Vaarsuvius and O-Chul turn out to have arrived in Hinjo's camp. O-Chul requests the most learned scribe because he has questions about the escape.
#699: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html) MitD tries to replicate the escape on a hobgoblin. Deliberately misinterpreted Redcloak's words to bother someone else. Hobgoblin tells him he'd need to use magic for that to work, MitD says he's too dumb for that. MitD is worried about where he sent his friends and if they're safe. Mentions the other planes.
#700: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) MitD is not allowed in Tsukiko's room. MitD asks Tsukiko's help because she knows both types of magic. They discuss Tsukiko's fascination with the undead. MitD recognizes ritual scroll as “half a ritual”. Tsukiko promises she'll try to help him find his friend.
#701: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html) Hobgoblin from #699 asks MitD to open the curtains before Redcloak's speech. MitD warns him about clumsiness with pulling a rope. MitD thinks the goblins are cheering for his performance with the curtain.
#702: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html) Nothing.
#703: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0703.html) MitD reads Gobbotopia history booklet. Joke about how Jirix was dead.
#704: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) Redcloak thinks MitD doesn't know what a prime minister is.
#709: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html) MitD meets up with Tsukiko to call in her promise to find his friends. Tsukiko tells him he shouldn't be friends with paladins, and that she can't help because the Cloister spell protects O-Chul from divination. Joke about Xykon's balls. Even if Tsukiko and Xykon can't help, MitD hopes he'll find O-Chul eventually, and recalls the detail O-Chul said about rain.
#828: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0828.html) (MitD not present.) Redcloak says MitD still watches the crystal ball.
#831: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) MitD (still in box) informs Redcloak that Xykon is angry. (The reason is that the resistance acquired his phylactery.)
#832: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0832.html) MitD now under umbrella. (Team evil is preparing to leave.)
#833: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Xykon says they'll take a quick detour to the Astral Plane before they go to Girard's gate. Redcloak opens portal to the Astral Plane. MitD: “Oooo! I love the Astral Plane! It's so silvery and weightless!” Xykon: “When the hell were YOU ever on the Astral Plane?” MitD: “…I don't remember. Maybe I wasn't?”
#886: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) MitD does not appear in OotS's illusionary imagination of confrontation with Team Evil.
#887: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html) In tiny picture in illusion montage, MitD under umbrella drinking tea with O-Chul, while Elan, Roy and Durkon are present.
#899: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html) Team Evil arrives to Girard's pyramid, MitD under umbrella.
#900: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) MitD's umbrella damaged after pyramid explodes. He asks which pelvis Xykon is looking for.
#901: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) MitD recognizes the Order of the Stick, knows they are O-Chul's friends. MitD refers to the paralyzed O-Chul accidentally falling to his tea party as him having captured O-Chul. Worried about the party, bluffs to Xykon that O-Chul and Vaarsuvius are more dangerous and must be already at Kraagor's dungeon, while Roy's party distracts Team Evil here. He cleverly uses the fact that Xykon never remembers Roy. The bluff works, they depart to Kraagor's dungeon immediately.
#1036: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html) MitD shows off his new umbrella to Oona, with drawings of duckies.
#1037: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html) Oona calls him “Great Beast in Shadow”, magnificent and majestic, “like in wildest dreams”. He saw MitD under umbrella. He and Greyview the dog treats him as if he was Xykon's pet who should obey Xykon, but MitD isn't willing to accept that idea. Oona says he almost bought two humans as food to MitD, seems to have heard that a human was MitD's best friend, but misunderstood as if he was his favourite snack. He also says he'd seen under the umbrella, he's a “magnificent monster”, envies Xykon for owning him, and thinks it's a waste keeping him in the shadows. Also says that the MitD is small but will grow.
#1038: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html) MitD understands that Redcloak needs to prepare his spells. Shows suspicious understanding of goblin culture with big words, demon roach lampshades that as clue to MitD puzzle.
#1039: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) Team evil heads into Kraagor's Tomb, apparently not the first time. To know which entrances they've explored, they mark the door with paint. MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight.
#1040: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html) MitD feels lucky about new company, picks a door. Joke about adventure being off-screen.
#1041: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1041.html) MitD falls back, paints cross on multiple doors, including ones not on the ground floor. Holds paint can and brush as if he had two hands. Seems to leave no footprints in the snow, unlike rest of the team.
#1042: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) O-Chul and Lien covertly observe MitD doing that. O-Chul is happy that the MitD is not always obedient to Team Evil. O-Chul has a theory about MitD, but doesn't tell because nobody would believe it. O-Chul brought a go game board.
#1189: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) Redcloak sees a lots of doors marked, concludes they've explored them quickly. Oona disagrees, but MitD takes Redcloak's side to move on from that topic and cover his trick.
#1259: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1259.html) Lien mentions MitD.
#1260: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1260.html) MitD is no longer always hungry. Hobgoblin named Haarko feeds him stew. Xykon is surprised and doesn't like this: he needs the MitD to be able to eat the heroes. Xykon says that he read that the MitD's kind likes to eat dwarves, but MitD disagrees.
#1261: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1261.html) MitD asks where Redcloak is. MitD can recognize Redcloak on Xykon's drawing.
#1263: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1263.html) MitD awkwardly tries to deflect suspicion from that he made the extra marks on the door, both Redcloak and Xykon are apparently too busy to notice this. MitD hopes that he managed to delay the search for the gate significantly with that ploy, but Redcloak explains why it doesn't matter too much.
#1264: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1264.html) MitD hopes that searching the gate will take lots of time. “What gate?” joke is back as Redcloak summons Modrons with a Gate spell.
#1265: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1265.html) MitD is disappointed because the Quinton can keep track of doors so marking them with paint will no longer be necessary.
#1266: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1266.html) One unclear line by MitD.
#1267: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1267.html) MitD asks tricky questions from Xykon to try to confuse him into losing the word game that is the price for the Quinton's help. MitD can't remember whether he had a name.
#1275: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1275.html) Nothing notable.
#1282: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1282.html) MitD speaks up about what Xykon should choose in the Marshmallow Test Saga ad from the Quinton.


Section 6b: Appearances in Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS99.html) (prequel book).
page 49: MitD is sleeping then waking up. He's in the jungle and loves it there. Naively baited by a giant steak on a hook, he gets trapped in a box.
Page 50: MitD asks hunters to let him out of the box, since it doesn't open from the inside. Hunters are surprised that he talks, and talks in Common. They believe he's a rare and expensive catch. “I never expected” They'll load him into the cargo hold of a boat.
Page 83: MitD is about to perform in circus, has stage fright. He likes stew.
Page 84: The ringmaster announces him as “Prepare to feast your eyes on ‘IT!’”. Circus audience reactions: “Oh my gods…”, “It's horrible!” (closing eyes), “And yet beautiful!”, “Mommy, I feel funny looking at it.”, “Blerrrch!” (vomiting), “I've never seen anything like it!”, “Woooooo!” (Redcloak's niece), “YEAH!” (Redcloak's nephew). MitD found the performance tough. The lady who cares for him doesn't understand, because every show he just “stands out on the stage and gets gawked at”. She gives him stew and has prepared his box. The lady also says the MitD's dinner was the same stew every day for over five years. MitD still likes stew.
Page 84: After performance, Redcloak's brother Right-Eye and his children meet MitD. MitD is in the box eating the stew from a bucket. The box seems to be the same one as the one in #541. We see the box from its narrower side too: it has a window without bars there. MitD remains in this box for the rest of the book. MitD recognizes the family and plays with the younger children with his toy plush dragon from #463. Right-Eye: “Almost everyone else who spends a silver piece to get into the sideshow recoils in abject horror at the sight of you”. They leave but will return tomorrow.
Page 85: Right-Eye says that no, they can't take the MitD home. He affirms that the MitD eats a lot of stew, and can sleep.
Page 88: Presumably the next day, Redcloak, newly arrived in town, is supervising Right-Eye's children in the circus. They meet the MitD behind stage in his box again. Redcloak was impressed seeing him. MitD: “I don't fit into the leotards the trapeze artists wear. Probably has something to do with all the stew.” Redcloak affirms that the MitD could leave the circus and kill all the guards if he wanted, but MitD says that would be rude. Redcloak invites the MitD to work for him. Work involves “Being scary, mostly. Maybe some fighting.” MitD is not paid by circus, Redcloak will pay three times as much.
Page 89: In Right-Eye's home, Redcloak tells him he wants to recruit the MitD for the Plan, because he's powerful.
Page 90: During the night, Redcloak steals the monster from the circus. Lifts MitD's box onto a cart with great difficulties. MitD rocks the box to reach the bucket of stew.
Pages 91, 92, 93: Still escaping from circus. MitD doesn't help, except he can lean his weight to steer the cart.
Page 94: MitD eats cotton candy.
Page 95: Nothing notable.
Page 96: Xykon observes the MitD. Xykon says the MitD is ugly, and is his “secret weapon” now, to deal with any heroes who try to stop Xykon and the Plan, as in #103. They're unclear about the details: “Well… what do you do that really terrifies people?” “Um… let's see… I eat a lot?” “OK, then, when the heroes show up, you'll eat them!” “I've never eaten a hero before.” Xykon also magically charms the MitD to eat Redcloak if he ever betrays Xykon. MitD has swirly eyes, reacts out of character: “Yes, master”. Xykon promises him all the stew he can eat and toys, but refuses to let him out of the box when the MitD asks.
Page 100: Redcloak orders MitD to lead the zombies to attack the castle of Dorukan.
Page 101: MitD has no idea how to storm the castle. Asks zombies to bring him tacos instead.
Page 103: A zombie has brought taco. MitD eats, with bite marks. MitD abuses the authority that Redcloak left him in charge.
Page 104: MitD has a feast with a zombie bringing more taco and a goblin band playing music.
Page 105: MitD still feasting. Xykon questions Redcloak about that.
Page 109: MitD reacts to the news that Right-Eye died and won't be resurrected: “Awwwww, that sucks. He was fun.”. Offers taco to Redcloak.
Page 110, 112: Nothing notable.

Section 6c: Appearances in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS50.html) (book -1/2) and other books by the Giant. (https://www.giantitp.com/Shop.html)
No Cure for the Paladin Blues (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS02.html) (Book 2)
#194a: unknown (I don't have the book)
War and XPs (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS03.html) (Book 3)
#415a: unknown (I don't have the book)
Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (https://www.giantitp.com/GIPOTS50.html) (book -1/2)
Page 28, in the Scruffy story “Scruff and Tumble”, which happens in Gobbotopia while Haley leads the resistance, around the time of #514: In a house, a tiny psionic teleporting elephant beetle is leashed and captured in a magic circle. Redcloak enters to find the beetle gone, the leash torn. Redcloak is angry, blames the MitD for it. MitD is under the Hello Kitty umbrella.

Section 6d: Administrative notes about this list and version history.These lists try to list all appearances of the MitD and references to him in all comic strips that the Giant considers canonical for the story. I mention strips where the MitD is visible even if he's not doing anything, and strips where someone else is talking about the MitD in his absence. I do not collect appearances in non-canonical material such as calendars and ornaments and shirts.

If you find any mistakes or omissions in this list, please point it out in the active MitD thread. I will edit the list in place so that we always have the freshest information on the first page of the thread. In particular, I know there are appearances of the MitD in bonus strips of some of the books I don't have, and one appearance in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales, and would like your help in writing entries for them. I am trying to make the list give an objective description of what we see in the comic without interpreting the scene in any particular way, so please try to stick to that style when writing entries.

Version history.
Until 2014 Back in MitD threads number 5, 6, 7, 8, Savannah posted a list of all appearances of the MitD in the comic on the first page (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17449929)
2017-11-17 I ask why this practice stopped in threads 9 and 10. Grey_Wolf_c explains that it is because Savannah refused to give permission to copy his post in later threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579608). I decide to take the matter in my own hands and post a list that covers the first half of the online strips, and try to make it better than Savannah's list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22580072) Doug Lampert also starts one, but I don't like its style so I mostly ignore it, except for making sure I haven't missed any strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22579903)
2017-11-19: I post an updated list that covers all online strips up to that point (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22585133)
2018-05-09: I post an updated list that also covers all of Start of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23056887), edit it in place with last update on 2018-05-29
2018-07-08: I post the list on the first page of the new MitD thread (number 11) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23206731), with prior permission of the thread curator Grey_Wolf_c. I add this administrative notes, but make no changes from the 2018-05-19 version in the actual list.
2018-07-10: Add literal quotes into #833. Previous description was brief “MitD still thinks of Tsukiko as a friend. Remark about the astral plane.” I left it like that because this is a strip I have a very strong opinion about, opposing that of some others of the thread, and didn't want to be too subjective.
2018-07-31: Fix #374. Last sentence used to say "Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his far through the wall, but they survive." which is both missing the word "horse" and the important information that there are new holes on the wall. Edited #477 to explicitly mention an earthquake, since the circular waves on the ground seem a clear enough sign. Also added bold keywords to the main panel of the four scenes that we seem to have clear consensus that they are key scenes (tower, ESCAPE, circus) so they're easier to find.
2018-08-22: Add entry for #652 with Dimensional Anchor.
2018-09-03: Mention Power Ranger figures explicitly in #147.
2018-10-11: Extended #474 with Belkar seeing tracks. Old text was just: “Still tea party, now with dead Roy too.”
2018-11-17: Link to #113 was incorrect.
2019-01-12: Copied post to new thread: MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23632329)
2019-01-30: Add #259. Add new section 6c for book -1/2; other books with only few appearances can go here too.
2019-03-30: Copied post to new thread: MitD XIII: Learning is happening (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584536).
2019-08-18: In #1037, mention that Oona thinks the MitD is small but will grow.
2019-08-21: In #1041, add sentence about footprints.
2020-04-29: Copied everything to MitD thread number 14.
2020-06-16: Give more context for #1039. Text was just "MitD gets permission to do the painting tonight." Describe 1189.
2020-07-17: Copied post to to thread: MitD XV: The Other Dark One. It is numbered section 6 deliberately, despite that it's posted above section 5 the list of guesses, to keep section numbers stable if reasonably possible.
2020-08-19: Stubs for bonus strip #415a in book 3, and #194a in book 2.
2022-06-12: Add #1259.
2022-08-13: Copied post to thread “MITD Sweet XVI and Never Been Guessed” (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?646977); added #1260 to #1264.
2022-10-11: Added #1265 to #1267.
2022-10-12: Copied post to thread “MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic” (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?650507).
2023-03-03: Copied post to new thread: “MitD XVIII: It's utterly unreasonable to expect us to have been paying any attention” (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25723156); added #1275.
2023-08-07: Added #1282.

Thanks.
At least the following forum users gave helpful hints for this list, so I'm hereby thanking them: Doug Lampert, Windscion, D.One, Yendor.

[Crusher]

Tracking MitD guesses

We've been thinking about the MitD's identity for quite some time now. The unmasking is probably not nigh, but its definitely getting closer (since time only moves forward, as far as I know). Since these threads sometimes run for a long time (a recent one ran for almost 2 years), its entirely possible the great unveiling will occur before this thread finishes so its time to get formal about it.

This post will track the guesses of anyone who cares to make a guess, along with when they made the guess (and I'll probably track guess histories as well, unless people object). If you want to make a guess, you can either post it in the thread or message me. I'm pretty thorough about reading the thread, but I miss things occasionally so feel free to remind me.

For now, I'll organize them chronologically by guess but I may switch to alphabetical. Date is whatever day the forum tells me it was when the note was posted. Also, I'm already getting tired of typing out "Athasian Nightmare Beast", so it will be abbreviated ANB. You can only guess up to three candidates because I revel in cruelty. Actually, that’s not true, I don’t revel in cruelty. Cruelty should be its own reward. I actually revel in fun, it’s just healthy to set boundaries.

List of guesses


DaggerPen - Protean 5/21/16, Protean > Hunting Horror 5/28/16, Protean > ANB > Hunting Horror 4/29/2018
Ranagrande - Extremely heavily templated Giant Space Hamster 5/22/16
Grey_Wolf_c - Protean > Zodar > Aboleth 5/22/16, Protean > Slaad > Zodar 6/22/22
Kish - Infernal > Slaad 5/22/16, Infernal > Slaad > Protean 7/17/16, Slaad > Protean 8/31/18
Ron Miel - Púca 5/22/16
Sniffnoy - Uvuudaum 5/22/16
TraceHyde - Protean > Barghest > Something copywrited 5/23/16
Magesmiley - Prismatic Dragon (very young or young) 5/23/16
Michaeler - heavily templated Protean 5/23/16, young Protean = something Snarl-related (perhaps a Protean) 4/20/2018
RWeird - Protean > Neh-Thalggu > Uvuudaum 5/23/16
nihil8r - Glabrezu 5/24/16
Yanisa - ANB 5/27/16
Crusher - ANB > Prismasaurus > Glabrezu 5/27/16, ANB > Glabrezu > Neh-Thalggu 6/22/2016, ANB > Glabrezu > Slaad 1/11/17, Slaad > Glabrezu 1/23/17, Slaad > Glabrezu > Xenocrysth 7/16/20, Slaad > Glabrezu > ANB 10/26/21, Slaad > ANB > Very Old Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22, Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon 7/6/22 (yes, same day), Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon > Loculi 10/12/22, Slaad > Ancient Sapphire Dragon > Glabrezu 7/7/23
HarryMcB - Protean 5/28/16
Lord Bingo - Zodar 5/29/16
Lombard - Couatl 5/31/16, Li Lung (templated) 7/11/18, Li Lung with Wilder levels 4/10/19
Quartz - ANB 5/31/16, ANB = Uvuudaum 4/25/20
halfeye - Boojum 6/1/16, Black Hole > Boojum 7/24/18, Nightcrawler 3/19/19, Boojum > Nightcrawler > Black Hole 5/1/20
Ruck - Protean > ANB > Snorlax 6/2/16, Protean > Uvuudaum > ANB 12/3/19, Protean 9/1/23
GM_3826 - Protean > ANB > Uvuudaum 6/2/16
dancrilis - Grey Render 6/3/16
Vendanna - Half-dragon 6/3/16, Half-dragon/demon 11/15/17
IrishMusician - Protean 6/22/16
thereaper - Protean 6/22/16
ReaderAt2046 - Protean > Zodar > Carbosilicate Amorph 6/22/16, Protean > ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 7/17/16, ANB > Carbosilicate Amorph 11/17/17, Xenocrysth > Carbosilicate Amorph 8/1/20, Protean 10/10/23
theinsulabot - ANB 6/22/16
Onyavar - Protean 6/22/16
Dark Matter - Protean 6/22/16
Humanist Geek - Protean > ANB > something templated 6/22/16
littlebum2002 - Protean 6/23/16, Slaad > Protean 8/25/2017
voiceofreason - the author 7/1/16
SirKazum - Slaad 7/12/16
Bestigle - Protean 7/12/16
ShiningWrath - ANB 7/17/16, Dread Linnorm (runty, minus a head) 4/28/18
Qwertystop - Protean > Zodar 7/17/16
Hardcore - Imentesh (its a kind of Protean) 7/17/16, Snorlax > Protean 5/1/20, Imentesh > Snorlax 10/24/22
Darth V - Protean 7/20/16, Protean > White Slaad turning into Black Slaad upon reveal > Snorlax 10/18/22
Peelee - Protean 7/20/16
Throknor - Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 7/28/16, Aboleth Mage -> Uvuudaum > Glabrezu 8/5/20
Knight.Anon - Young Titan 8/3/16
Rosstin - Protean 11/22/16
Outliar - ANB 11/23/16
Darth Paul - Slaad 1/20/17, Slaad > ANB 11/19/17, ANB > Uvuudaum 1/12/19, ANB > Protean, 1/13/19, Protean 3/31/19
Kythia - Slaad 8/9/17
Sniccups - Slaad = ANB 10/15/17
Thermophille - Slaad (White > Black) 11/6/17
Monation - Protean 11/15/17
Zenzis - Glabrezu 11/15/17
Shashakiro - ANB 11/15/17, Slaad 8/28/18
Clockshock - ANB 11/20/17
Djinnocide - Enveloper 7/6/18
Jaxzan Proditor- Protean > Zodar 7/11/18
godsflunky - Protean (because of the nice character-development resonances) 7/11/18
woweedd - Protean = Zodar 7/12/18
redgoblin - Hephaestus - 7/18/18
Father Miles - ANB > Protean > Snorlax 7/19/18
3Power - Ha-Naga 7/28/18, Ha-Naga > anything not on FBS list > Zodar 3/20/19
Calavera - Zeus 8/15/18
Synesthesy - “pure” Black Slaad 9/16/18
Qzin - Snarl, Jr 9/29/18
SpoonR - Baby Deity 9/29/18
Riarra - Slaad > Protean 9/30/18
EmperorSarda - Kandra/Mistwraith 10/22/18
thelivingmonkey - Glabrezu 10/25/18, Protean > Glabrezu > Snorlax 3/13/19
Mightymosy - Something not yet guessed > Protean > Carbosilicate Amorph 1/8/19, Something not yet guessed > Protean 3/31/19
NobleCuriosity - Protean > ANB 1/12/19
The Aboleth - ANB 3/5/19, Protean > ANB 12/5/19
Son of a Lich! - Protean 3/7/19
Mariele - Protean = ANB 3/14/19
Squire Doodad - Protean > Slaad 3/21/19, Protean > Xenocrysth 10/15/21
Jineon - 9-times blinded Beholder 3/29/19
Sir_Norbert - Uvuudaum 3/29/19
cinderrain - Protean 3/29/19
KrankenWagon - ANB > Black Slaad 3/29/19
Angrith - ANB > Hunting Horror 3/30/19
Mad Humanist - Protean 3/30/19
locksmith of io - Protean > ANB 3/31/19
gooddragon1 - Galeb Duhr 6/18/19
BasilisksSoldier - ANB - 8/30/19
pwning doodes - Uvuudaum 9/25/19
Fish - thesaurus 10/1/19
Schroeswald - Red Cloak's niece 10/1/19
Rollin - Protean 12/5/19
DLcygnet - Protean 12/10/19
Scizor - Protean 12/16/19, Xenocrysth > Protean 8/3/20
Iskar Jarak - Protean 4/1/20
trtl - Protean > Gazebo 4/4/20
Emanick - Frankenstein 4/5/20, "Something not guessed" > White Slaad > Protean 10/15/21
DavidBV - Prismatic Dragon - Kinda guessed on 5/10/20 and kinda guessed on 1/20/10 (prior to the contest starting, making it kind of a gray area)
Thales - Protean - 6/15/20
Kastor - ANB (the old one) 6/18/20, Corpse Tearer Linnorm 11/10/22
catagent101 - Protean > Snorlax - 6/23/20, Protean > Xenocrysth > Snorlax 7/16/20
LadyEowen - ANB 6/24/20
Doug Lampert - Wile E. Coyote > Cabosilicate Amorph > Redcloak's Niece 6/24/20
JonahFalcon - Very Young Obsidian Dragon 7/5/20
Neponde - Protean 7/16/20
Charybdis - Protean 7/18/20
Ariko - Xenocrysth 7/19/20
Jaziggy - Xenocrysth > Protean 7/21/20, Loculi 6/28/22
Baine - Protean 8/4/20
Blue Dragon - Snarl Jr 3/22/21
Timy- Protean 12/1/21
Jervis - a small psychic giant 6/16/22, Linnorm 6/18/22
chy03001 - Pit Fiend 6/21/22
IthilanorStPete - Protean 6/22/22
Eric the White - Barghast (version from Dragon #26) 6/22/22
Carl - Neh-Thalggu 6/23/22
silversaraph - baby or young ANB 6/27/22
Laurentio III - Loculi > Protean > amnesiac Proteus (from Marvel comics) 8/4/22, Loculi = Protean = Glabrezu 8/10/22
ff7hero - Slaad 8/4/22
diremage - Glabrezu 8/20/22
puzzler7 - Protean > Slaad 9/28/22
Elanfanforlife - Protean > Loculi = Snorlax 10/3/2022, Protean > Loculi = Slaad 9/1/23
Zenfrodo - Onyx Dragon 10/10/2022
Psyren - Protean 10/19/22
TaiLiu - Protean 10/26/22
Mike Havran - Protean 12/7/22
brian 333 - Dao 12/22/22
Tzardok - Templated Cipactli 12/22/22
Tubercular Ox - Hunting Horror 12/22/22
Beni-Kujaku - Psionic Old Li Lung 12/28/22
InvisibleBison - Protean 3/1/23
georgie_leech - Protean 3/1/23
Precure - Protean with Sorcerer levels 3/7/23
Flange - Wingless Wonder 3/7/23
World Illusion - Pseudonatural Marid 4/22/23
Atomburster - Protean 4/22/23
Flumphs4ever - Goristro 5/13/23
Elliot0 - Glabrezu 6/21/23
dartom - half-dragon Glabrezu 7/1/23
Ubiquity - Protean > Uvuudaum 8/30/23
Emberlily - Protean - 9/5/23
Metastachydium - Blood&Honey!Pooh Bear>=Epic!Slaad 9/5/23


I will also compile a list of the top vote-getters, and running totals for their scores, which I will update infrequently. If you have one guess, it gets 1 point. Two ordered guesses split 0.6/0.4 and three ordered guesses split 0.5/0.3/0.2. Two non-ordered guesses "It is either X or Y, with no favorite" will be awarded 0.5/0.5 and three non-ordered guesses will get 0.33/0.33/0.33. Guessing "X is my first choice then Y and Z are tied for second" will be scored 0.5/0.25/0.25. And "X or Y are tied for my first choice, but Z is clearly my 3rd choice" will be scored... Um, hmm. My normal methodology falls apart with that but my back-up methodology gives a breakdown of 0.4/0.4/0.2. That feels about right and I'll probably go with it but if it comes up, I'll think about it more.

If you guess more than three, I'll discard the 4th and after if possible. If not possible ("its one of these 5...") then I'll exclude the entire guess.

In the ancient past, when dinosaurs roamed the forums, I used a modestly different scoring system. However, it had a slight improportionality in points awarded based on numbers of monsters guessed. Over time it slowly started bugging me, so I eventually fixed it and here we are.

Update - Last updated 3/3/23

Just 4 months since the last update, and there were two minor surprises. First, after multiple consecutive updates in which the Protean modestly extended its commanding lead, things were mixed up a bit and this time the Protean SIGNIFICANTLY extended its already very large lead. Very exciting! The ANB treaded water while staying in second, but remarkably the "Dragon" quasi-candidate saw a surge of voting and is now narrowly in third! The Slaad was mostly flat and is now in fourth place, bringing up the rear of the lead pack.

The Uvuudaum is now in the lead in the secondary pack, followed closely by the Glabrezu, the "Deity" quasi-candidate, the Xenocrysth, and the Zodar. It hasn't been long since the last update and there haven't been all that many votes (which were mostly for the Protean) so its not surprising these candidates were fairly static.

Since I opened the door a bit towards counting some of the lower vote candidates last time, I figured I'd check if any more were close, and it turns out a couple were. In eighth, of the non-quasi-candidates, remains the Loculi. Narrowly behind (both in percentage terms but also in absolute terms. All of these lower candidates have more than 1.0 votes but also less than 2.0 votes so they're all pretty close together already) is the Hunting Horror, and rounding out the list is an exact tie between the Barghast and the Nel-thaggu.

As a reminder, the "Dragon" and "Deity" quasi-candidates aren't specific candidates but are instead aggregations of all votes cast for any kind of Dragon or any specific or general Deity. They're grouped, added up, and presented because I find it mildly interesting.

The ranking currently goes:

#1 - Protean (or some variant of Protean) - 42.63
#2 - ANB - 12.5
#X - "Dragon" - 10.3
#3 - Slaad - 10.2
#4 - Uvuudaum - 4.5
#5 - Glabrezu - 3.83
#Y - "Deity" - 3.0
#6 - Xenocrysth - 2.9
#7 - Zodar - 2.5
#8 - Loculi - 1.83
#9 - Hunting Horror - 1.6
#10T - Barghast - 1.3
#10T - Nel-thaggu - 1.3

In case anyone is curious, 129 people have guessed, so the total score of all guessed candidates is 129 (well... very nearly. As the Protean's score of 42.63 suggests, a small bit of rounding occasionally happens).

[Ruck]

As requested, the Protean argument will be posted at the top of the thread.

The original essay is posted here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24290445&postcount=1195) With some minor revisions:


First, the background to my process:

Preamble

I’m not a D&D player, a couple of the computer game adaptations aside. I don’t know the game like other people do. Now on the one hand, I think that means I come in without any particular attachment to a creature, so perhaps my case is more “objective” than those of people who have a favorite D&D monster and want it to be the MITD.

It also means I’m working only from the list of already-proposed FBS characters. Given my lack of experience with D&D and the amount of research already done here by people looking through various sourcebooks to find suitable monsters, I don’t think I can add value with any further research. Thus, I have focused my efforts on examining the evidence available vs. the already-existing FBS list and trying to deduce an accurate conclusion. (As this implies, I also believe that “it is possible to guess” means MITD is a D&D monster which is capable of the things we have seen in comic by the rules of D&D 3.5.)

I also recognize that none of the creatures are perfect fits; if they were, this thread likely would have reached a consensus already. But being as I don’t believe I will find a better creature out there, I am going to try to determine the best fit from the FBS creatures based on the evidence at hand.

I’m laying out my case in three parts. The first part I call the “Negative Case”-- why the Protean has the fewest flaws in its case of any creature on the FBS list. The second part I call the “Positive Case”-- why I think the Protean is the best fit for more scenes we’ve seen than any other FBS creature. The third part is the “Thematic Case”-- while the MITD’s species is “possible to guess” from the clues we’ve been given, I’m also keeping in mind that this is a story and not a game of D&D, and I think the Protean is also the best fit for the MITD’s role in the story and story arc.

Without further ado:

Part 1: The Negative Case

As you can see from the list of FBS monsters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23810694&postcount=3), every monster in the list has some marks against its case (under “Cons” for each). Two things I want to highlight here are:

1a. Fewest cons

Most of the other FBS-list monsters have significantly longer lists of cons than the Protean's two. The longer the list of cons, the worse fit a creature is, as more conflicts need to be explained.

The only monsters with comparably short lists of cons are the Athasian Nightmare Beast, the Carbosilicate Amorph, and the Uvuudaum. I’ll get to the Uvuudaum more in the next section, but I believe the first two, while they really only have one significant con, have disqualifying cons:

The Carbosilicate Amorph would have been imported entirely from another webcomic, a sci-fi story at that. It’s not a D&D monster, and that makes the sort of deduction through D&D stats and powers we’re looking for here nigh impossible. I do not think Rich used a monster outside of D&D; while it is certainly possible he might, I would wager that the complications involved there violate the implicit agreement of the “it is possible to guess” statement. (To say nothing of any complications that might arise from using someone else’s intellectual property-- because I’m pretty sure we’re not allowed to discuss that topic.) In any case, that’s a deal-breaker for me.

The Athasian Nightmare Beast was published after Rich, by his own words, decided on what MITD’s species was. The explanation here is that “the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich,” but again, I interpret Rich’s “possible to guess” statement to mean it would have been possible to publicly find the information on MITD when he decided on the species. I could be wrong, but I don’t believe he would have picked a creature yet to be published. (And that’s before we get into things like the ANB being described as having “crimson eyes” when the MITD’s are yellow, but I’ll get to artwork in a minute.) Indeed, as the ANB was apparently not published in the form considered the best fit for MITD, its seems highly unlikely Rich would have chosen that version as a creature he considered "possible to guess." (Grey Wolf's post here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25723258&postcount=12) gives more detail on the conceptual issues with ANB as MITD.)

Every creature besides those three has a longer con list than the Protean. I believe two of those creatures will not be the MITD because of how they seem to violate the nature of the “guessing game” of MITD’s species. But let’s get to what may be the more important part of this argument: The nature of those cons.

1b. Mechanical Explanations

The Protean’s cons can be explained without changing the D&D mechanics of how the species works.

Not only is the Protean's cons list shorter than the rest, the other species' cons all require substantial bending of the 3.5 rules to dismiss, or aren't really dismissable at all except by saying "This one just doesn't apply." (Or in the case of ANB and CA, bending space/time and genre in a way that I think violates the guessing game.) The Protean's is the only one whose Cons can be explained with established mechanics. (While Rich has said he only uses the mechanics as a framework for the story and isn’t totally faithful to them, the assumption of this thread has been that his statement that “it is possible to guess” means he is faithful to 3.5 when showing the MITD’s powers, and I too use that assumption here.)

Let’s pick up the Uvuudaum again. One of the Uvuudaum’s cons is “His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.” I believe this is significant because it’s a mechanic that should work in OOTS-verse for an MITD scene but would simply have to not work as described in order for the Uvuudaum to fit. Many of the creatures in the FBS list have even more cons of this nature where the mechanics don’t fit the creature in question. (The Glabrezu, for example, is too low CR, would not draw a reaction of surprise upon speaking, and is an embodiment of Chaotic Evil, which doesn’t fit what we’ve seen with MITD. The Hunting Horror is too weak and is also damaged by light, which would be a problem considering how often MITD asks for light to be shone on him. Slaads can talk in common and also have already been depicted in the comic.)

The other con on the Uvuudaum’s list is art-based. The Uvuudaum, ANB, and Protean all have art-based cons, but I am willing to consider these as weaker cons than mechanical deficiencies. My main reasons for this are due to the limitations of the stick-figure art system and how to best express MITD’s reactions, and due to Rich not wanting to change how MITD is depicted in strip and thus give away a reveal he’s been planning for what might well be 20 years by the time it happens.

That said, I also believe the Protean’s art-based con is the weakest of the three:


The Uvuudaum’s is “Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures).” While I can let the eyes go given that MITD is shrouded in darkness and eyes are the best way to represent his facial expressions, not having a mouth seems like a serious impediment toward eating and speaking, two things the MITD definitely does.
The ANB’s regards the eye color; again, I think it would have been a huge clue to change eye colors on the character as soon as its species was decided, so I’m willing to overlook it (because I think the ANB is disqualified for the reasons I state above anyway).
The Protean’s is “Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same).” If you buy the above art explanations, then they will suffice as well for the Protean. If you don’t, however, the Protean has a mechanical explanation that would suffice, in its description in the SRD:



A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes).
Given how little movement we see the MITD make, it’s certainly possible that MITD is constantly using a move action to hold a form with two eyes (and probably a mouth in case someone brings stew). Indeed, given that a move action can be used in place of a standard action, even when we see MITD moving, it’s possible he’s using his standard action to hold form.

I think there are good explanations why MITD might do this (I’ll cover them in “Thematic Relevance”), but for now, what’s important is that a Protean can do this. It doesn’t need to be especially likely or common for a Protean to act this way to fit MITD; it only needs to be that a Protean is capable of doing so. (In addition, taking the effort to hold a more-or-less constant form may be why MITD is always so tired.)

It is also possible that MITD is not doing this, but any extra eyes he manifests continue to remain hidden in the darkness. Or that we don't actually see the same two eyes, it just so happens that every time we look at the monster, he happens to have two eyes that appear in the same place from our perspective.

Peelee has a theory (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24575576&postcount=404) that in a world that runs on the rules of storytelling, the camera placement and our view of MitD's eyes will always be set up so as not so spoil the surprise:


If an ever-shifting monster is kept as a surprise, the eyes will not spoil the surprise, because that's how the universe works.

In any case, there are multiple plausible explanations here for why we might not see MITD appear as we “expect” a Protean to appear. Rich's exact words on the subject are "Nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what [MITD] is," and appearing with two eyes, while unusual, does not contradict the truth of what a Protean is or can be.

(NobleCuriosity has a good post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23634830&postcount=58) further elaborating on artistic reasons why Rich might depict a Protean MITD as having two consistent eyes-- specifically, the artistic convention of keeping one feature of a shapeshifter consistent so the audience knows which character it is-- as well as other points that supplement the case made in this post.)

The other con for the Protean is:

Plane shift doesn't fit well with the escape as shown (see 1b: The Escape), and while greater teleport fits slightly better, it requires a timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature. There is no evidence that psionic-class creatures have been converted as per EP handbook.

While “timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature” might require rolling a natural 20 in a real game of D&D, OOTS is a story. In this story, the unlikely result will happen if it proves best for the story (and I don’t just mean in the sense that Elan believes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) “a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing,” but also in what Rich has said himself about writing the story (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=19156714#post19156714)). It may be unlikely, but it is possible without changing the rules of how a Protean works in 3.5.

It is also entirely possible that such a shapeshift does not require a lucky roll, given a Protean's intelligence, wisdom, and knowledge of other creatures. It may not be knowledge MitD consciously realized he had, but by willing himself to save O-Chul, he manifested exactly what he needed to manifest.

In fact, that timely shapeshift explains why MITD doesn’t teleport the hobgoblin in #699 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html): As the hobgoblin says, MITD is “just shouting synonyms at me,” while MITD would have to shapeshift to actually teleport the hobgoblin (and probably still doesn’t realize that’s what he did or how his power works; see “I didn’t do it! And if I did do it, I didn’t know I could do it until I did it!” (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html)).

My point is, the Protean is capable of explaining the Escape scene without adding any new information, qualification, or template, or without bending, fudging, or discarding the mechanical rules of the species. It may be unlikely that your typical Protean would do so, but “unlikely under the rules” is not the same as “impossible under the rules.” Unlike the Uvuudaum’s mechanical con (or the other creatures with even more cons), the rules of a Protean’s mechanics do not have to change to explain anything about MITD.

Thus, both of the potential "cons" of the Protean as a fit do have a possible mechanical explanation without altering any of the rules of 3.5 or how the creature works. I don’t think you can say that about any of the other proposed creatures. Those explanations may be the product of unlikely behavior for a Protean, but stories like this are generally about unlikely people. (It's pretty unlikely that a wildly dysfunctional, somewhat hastily assembled party of mid-level characters would grow into the team that saves the world, but, here we are.)
.
So I believe the drawbacks against the Protean have been addressed above. In this section, I’ll talk about the Protean as actively the best fit for the big scenes.

Part 2: The Positive Case

I believe that not only does the Protean fit all the big scenes, but it generally goes beyond meeting what the agreed minimum requirements to fit them are, and in fact is often the best fit for them of all the creatures on the FBS. I’ll give some examples.

2a. The Tower Scene

Now, 3Power actually gave me an idea with this one a while back (I think in thread XII), although perhaps not the idea he expected. In his case for a creature (the Ha-Naga, IIRC), he suggested that the Tower scene is a joke that can be handwaved away, a bit of Looney Tunes cartoon physics. Well, I agree with the Looney Tunes part, but come to a different conclusion. The physics of the scene are so ridiculous-- MITD tries to hit Miko as softly as possible and knocks her and her horse through the wall and some substantial distance away-- that it's far more likely that MITD has preposterously high strength than that he barely meets the threshold we've established. Thus, the higher the strength, the better fit the creature. Every candidate listed in the FBS list with D&D stats has a strength in the 30s (except the Black Slaad which is listed as 42). The Protean has STR 53. It is significantly higher strength than any of the other FBS creatures. It is thus by far the most likely species on the list that a creature of such could attempt to hit someone as weakly as possible and still send them cartoonishly flying through a solid wall and hundreds of feet away.

2b. The Circus Scene

I think the sheer variety of reactions in the Circus Scene make far more sense for a Protean than anything else on the FBS list. Most of the other creatures on the FBS list should be terrifying, sure, but we see everything from horror to nausea to fascination (both with it being "beautiful" and "never seen anything like it") to the goblin kids cheering him on. The Protean's constantly shifting form is the best fit to cause all of those reactions (including its 34 CHA qualifying it as "beautiful" in someone's eyes); anything that keeps a consistent form is more likely to evoke similar reactions from each audience member, rather than such a wide variety of reactions. Individual reactions from the crowd can be explained by other creatures' traits (Hunting Horror's stench of Nausea, Uvuudaum's confusion aura if you really fudge it, they could all be described as "horrible"), but only the Protean has the traits necessary to cover such a gamut of reactions.

In addition, I also believe that a Protean best explains why the goblin children are always excited to go back to the circus-- they get a new experience every time.

This doesn’t conflict with my art explanation for MITD’s eyes; MITD is told by his circus handler that what he does every show is “stand on the stage and get gawked at.” If those are his instructions, then he is probably not using a move action to hold a form when he’s on stage, merely standing still. (We don’t see his eyes when he’s on stage, after all-- we see that entire scene from his perspective until he goes back into the darkness.)

While the Escape scene is not one where the Protean’s ability to perform it stands out compared to other species, it does have the capacity to do so (as I explained in part 1), and it’s really a binary yes/no question as to whether a species can. The Protean can.

Items 4-7 in the list of characteristics necessary to be on the FBS list aren’t scenes, they are traits, and the Protean does possess them all.

For the record, it’s not in the Big Scenes list, but the Stomp scene (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html) would also fit a Protean, given that a Protean can manifest a limb to stomp with, that MITD is later shown in the Escape scene to be capable of great powers when it focuses intently, and that the Protean has a ridiculously high strength, the highest on the FBS list. (Note that MITD’s reaction to his stomp is, similar to his defense of the Escape scene, that he didn’t know he could do that; this also fits for a Protean that’s just discovering it can shapeshift into certain creatures to do specific things.)

So, the Protean isn’t lacking in any of the characteristics necessary for the FBS list, and in two of the three big scenes is the best fit for the scene of any creature proposed.

I believe that covers the case for why the Protean is the best fit for the MITD mechanically. Now, since OOTS is a story, I want to touch on the storytelling aspect of MITD’s species.

Part 3: The Thematic Case

While the species of the MITD is a guessing game that can be deduced by clues, I also believe that, first and foremost, Burlew is telling a story with The Order of the Stick, and that his criteria for choosing MITD’s species in the first place would involve that species being thematically relevant to the story.

Of course, it helps if we agree on what that story is. From my perspective, there are two key elements here:

3a. MITD’s relationship with Xykon and Redcloak

MITD, for the first six hundred-odd strips or so, seems to believe Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (despite the evidence to the contrary). Given MITD’s love of social gatherings like tea parties (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), and the stress he feels from performing in the circus (let alone how people who’ve seen him openly call him ugly, horrifying, etc.), he’s probably someone who wants to be liked, likes to have friends, struggles to fit in, and is insecure enough that he thinks anyone who will accept him is his friend. Darth Paul has a good post on this topic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23690023&postcount=186), to which I'll add that he didn't leave the circus because he didn't "[want] to be rude about it." MITD is a people-pleaser.

This is my explanation for why he constantly holds his form to have two eyes: His two best friends have two eyes each (or, you know, did) and he wants to fit in. Grey Wolf had an excellent post in the previous thread detailing this idea further, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23782161&postcount=811) and expanding another thematic point in favor of the Protean: Part of MITD’s struggle has been, as an ever-changing creature, to resist change in order to fit in and find friendship. It would also explain why MITD is perceived as being so lazy; if he's always using a move action to hold a form, it takes him twice as long to do things as other people. (Of course, if you accept one of the other explanations for his depiction, he doesn’t even have to be holding a form.)

3b. MITD’s relationship with O-Chul

I think the interactions between MITD and O-Chul are the most revealing parts for the theme of MITD’s story. Given those interactions and how MITD has changed since then, here’s what I think: The story of the MITD is that of a juvenile growing up, someone who is content to be led around by other people and have them think for him and give him orders as long as he thinks they’re his friends. O-Chul begins to prod him into challenging those ideas, not only the idea that Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) but also the idea that he should just do what other people say and not think for himself. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html)

O-Chul’s prodding and friendship leads the MITD to save him in the Escape Scene, and from then on MITD has been following his own agenda independent of Xykon and Redcloak (and apparently without their awareness). The MITD’s journey is one of realizing the things O-Chul has taught him, realizing the immense things he is capable of when he tries, focuses, and follows his own conscience rather than the orders of others.

(The Protean’s high stat block also explains why he is able to learn and change so quickly; we’ve (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0550.html) seen signs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) of his intelligence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html) in the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html), he’s just never really applied himself before #661. Intelligence and wisdom are the lowest of the Protean’s stats, but they’re still 20 and 21, respectively, which is still remarkably high when compared to typical creature stats, aside from adventuring wizards and clerics. Plus, the Protean has Detect Thoughts at will, which would work to explain how MITD has acquired some of his knowledge.)

The reason I think the Protean is the most relevant is because it is the one suggestion for the FBS that has the power to will itself to change its physical form, not merely its inner character. In fact, from what I can tell, the Protean can consciously choose creatures to shapeshift or partially shapeshift into. (This explains how a Protean MITD achieves the Escape Scene, the first step in his self-actualization.)

Thus, I believe that the MITD's journey is, quite literally, toward the lesson of “You can be whatever you want if you put your mind to it,” and that the Protean is the creature that fits this theme. (Other people have expressed this idea in other posts better than I am here, but searching in threads seems to be somewhat broken right now on the forums, so I couldn’t find those posts.) This also explains why O-Chul doesn’t think the MITD would believe his theory on what he is (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1042.html) (if he is correct); for someone who has been as passive as MITD has his whole life, learning he is not just capable of setting his own course, but in fact a creature of great and immense power, capable of virtually anything, would indeed come as a shock.

Even if you don’t find this particularly convincing, I can’t think of any thematic relevance to the story that any of the other FBS creatures hold. There’s always the more general “Even pure Evil can be changed by a resolute Goodness,” but that doesn’t particularly apply for any creature more than the others (or not enough to outweigh their cons), plus that theme makes MITD’s story more about O-Chul than himself. Based on some of Rich’s comments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right&p=19189873#post19189873) about character choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?412425-The-irony-of-bozzok-being-right/page2&p=19193861#post19193861), I believe MITD’s story is about his decisions, not simply as a foil to show O-Chul’s Goodness (which we’ve seen many times over anyway).

The MITD’s story is about finding the willpower to follow your own heart and mind and change who you are. What better represents the ability to make that change than a Protean, a creature that can literally physically change what it is?

Thus, in addition to the Protean having the strongest D&D 3.5 mechanical argument for species fit, I believe it also has the most thematic relevance to MITD’s story.

Conclusion

In conclusion: After reviewing all the available evidence, I believe the MITD is a Protean. I believe Protean is the species that is both the best positive fit and least negative fit for all of MITD’s scenes: That is to say, its combination of powers best explain MITD's displayed behavior, and it is also the species that least requires any fudging or bending of the D&D 3.5 rules (or the rules of spacetime, or the rules of copyright) to work. I also believe, perhaps more importantly, that Protean makes the most sense for MITD’s character journey and growing awareness of his own capabilities. I’ve reviewed the decade-plus of research and argumentation that has gone into compiling this thread, and I believe this is where the evidence points, substantially and better to the Protean than any other creature proposed.

[C-Dude]

I used to think Uvuudaum was the best candidate, but seeing more artwork of the creature it has become clear that it does not have traditional eyes (that thing isn't a beak, it's more like it's got an animal talon at the end of its 'neck').

Because of this, I now believe that of the best candidates, Athasian Nightmare Beast makes the best argument. It's only con is more of a middling point; I could see the Giant having information about this creature as a new release and working it into the comic as a surprise.

My favorite, though, has to be the five template half-green dragon. It's not true, but it reminds me of that vampire snail from Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails, and template stacking is also a running gag in the comic.

[Tubercular Ox]

#9 - Haunting Horror - 1.6

So sorry. "Hunting Horror." Thank you for the work that you do.

Non sequitur, Rich recently set up Roy’s opinion (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1274.html) on ordering child monsters into battle. Haley’s opinion (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) was set up a long time ago. V’s opinion on killing monstrous children has evolved over time, but I’m pretty sure V’s against it at the moment. And if Rich really needs a button to push to advance the plot, Durkon and Belkar have Kudzu and Mr. Scruffy.

Most of the party is set up to refuse to fight the Monster in the Dark, if the Monster in the Dark is a child. Can’t explain why, it makes me wonder if Xykon is going to order the Monster in the Dark to kill the party, just like Rich promised us in the Monster in the Dark’s first appearance.

(Elan’s odd. Maybe I missed something about his bonding with Sunny. Or maybe Rich could bring up his father killing his brother right in front of him.)

What’s the thread’s wisdom on how the reveal is going to happen?

[Ruck]

So sorry. "Hunting Horror." Thank you for the work that you do.

Non sequitur, Rich recently set up Roy’s opinion (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1274.html) on ordering child monsters into battle. Haley’s opinion (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) was set up a long time ago. V’s opinion on killing monstrous children has evolved over time, but I’m pretty sure V’s against it at the moment. And if Rich really needs a button to push to advance the plot, Durkon and Belkar have Kudzu and Mr. Scruffy.

Most of the party is set up to refuse to fight the Monster in the Dark, if the Monster in the Dark is a child. Can’t explain why, it makes me wonder if Xykon is going to order the Monster in the Dark to kill the party, just like Rich promised us in the Monster in the Dark’s first appearance.

(Elan’s odd. Maybe I missed something about his bonding with Sunny. Or maybe Rich could bring up his father killing his brother right in front of him.)

What’s the thread’s wisdom on how the reveal is going to happen?

I don't speak for anyone but myself, but as specific as I'm willing to get on what I imagine is most likely: There's going to be some point during the final battle where Xykon either orders MitD to attack the good guys and he refuses, or MitD comes out of the shadows to save one of the good guys / stop one of the bad guys from killing them. And per the Protean, Xykon or Redcloak will say "What are you doing, you idiot?! You're one of the bad guys!" And MitD will emerge from the shadows and say "I can change."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's only con is more of a middling point

I mean, this is a personal opinion, and you are welcome to it, but I think that "it is an unpublished monster stat sheet that only became somewhat public as a beta after MitD was selected, and that has since been erased from the Internet other than a bootleg copy I made in a thread ages ago" is a shade more a con than "middling".

Rich of all people would have been keenly aware of how unlikely an alpha version of a monster was to being published, and selecting it for MitD, knowing it had a decent chance it'd never would see the light of day might have given him pause; and that's assuming he ever did get a chance to see it in time at all. It could have happened, which is why it is placed where it is, but it it is a quite hefty issue, that has only become worse with time.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

I mean, this is a personal opinion, and you are welcome to it, but I think that "it is an unpublished monster stat sheet that only became somewhat public as a beta after MitD was selected, and that has since been erased from the Internet other than a bootleg copy I made in a thread ages ago" is a shade more a con than "middling".

Rich of all people would have been keenly aware of how unlikely an alpha version of a monster was to being published, and selecting it for MitD, knowing it was a decent chance it'd never would see the light of day might have given him pause; and that's assuming he ever did get a chance to see it in time at all. It could have happened, which is why it is placed where it is, but it it is a quite hefty issue, that has only become worse with time.

Grey Wolf

Wait, so the ANB was never published and its information isn't available anywhere unless you happened to save an old forum post from elsewhere?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wait, so the ANB was never published and its information isn't available anywhere unless you happened to save an old forum post from elsewhere?

The specific version of it that fits the FBS better than all the others was publicly posted as a beta version in an official D&D forum, asking for feedback. That particular forum was shut down a few years back; they announced it in advance, someone told me it was happening and either I copy-pasted the data (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=20077752&postcount=944) then, or I actually had to go to the wayback machine because I missed it (don't quite remember which).

There have been AFBs before that one, and presumably after, but they tend to be rather larger than that one.

GW

[Ruck]

The specific version of it that fits the FBS better than all the others was publicly posted as a beta version in an official D&D forum, asking for feedback. That particular forum was shut down a few years back; they announced it in advance, someone told me it was happening and either I copy-pasted the data (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=20077752&postcount=944) then, or I actually had to go to the wayback machine because I missed it (don't quite remember which).

There have been AFBs before that one, and presumably after, but they tend to be rather larger than that one.

GW

Hmm. I'm surprised a bit that it's just now occurring to me that this is a bigger downside than I previously thought. Is there an actual, single, official one published for 3.5?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hmm. I'm surprised a bit that it's just now occurring to me that this is a bigger downside than I previously thought. Is there an actual, single, official one published for 3.5?

My note in the OP says that Jasdoif found at least one in the "Legends of Athas beta pdf", but the wording, as well as something in the back of my mind suggests that there were at least a couple of versions, sitting somewhere along the spectrum from "third party" to "official". As well, of course, as the non-Athasian version of the Nightmare Beast. I've never been the best person to ask about published material, though, I'm afraid.

GW

[Jasdoif]

Hmm. I'm surprised a bit that it's just now occurring to me that this is a bigger downside than I previously thought.Give yourself some credit:

Wow, I had ANB as my #2 but this is a bit more damning than I realized-- especially if the ANB we've been using as our reference point was never actually published.



Is there an actual, single, official one published for 3.5?As we eventually discovered, sort of (https://www.athas.org/products/loa); the nightmare beast in the Legends of Athas beta PDF is basically an advanced-to-30-hit-dice version of the one Grey_Wolf_c already linked (It uses the newer format for monster blocks, and breaks out the more unique abilities instead of having a bunch of ugly modifying text). Your call on whether a public beta release constitutes "officially published", of course.

The nightmare beast in Monster Manual II is obviously official, but lacks the psi-like abilities that make the Athasian variant an appealing candidate (hence why we keep throwing in the word "Athasian" when talking about that one).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Give yourself some credit:

... it will never cease to be awe-inspiring (and more than a little bit scary) how good you are at finding and/or remembering who said what where.

GW

[Jasdoif]

... it will never cease to be awe-inspiring (and more than a little bit scary) how good you are at finding and/or remembering who said what where.Both, in this case...I remembered that I started the search that eventually found the Legends of Athas thing because of Ruck mentioning uncertainty about publication status; that turned out to be a different post but Ruck hasn't mentioned the Athasian Nightmare Beast much during his Protean phase, so a forum search was adequate to find the original post I was thinking of.

[C-Dude]

I mean, this is a personal opinion, and you are welcome to it, but I think that "it is an unpublished monster stat sheet that only became somewhat public as a beta after MitD was selected, and that has since been erased from the Internet other than a bootleg copy I made in a thread ages ago" is a shade more a con than "middling".Oh, I misinterpreted the con then. I was under the impression that it was much further along in development and that materials had been distributed for final peer review before a pending release. Since D&D was prone to peppering ideas, monsters, and stats into their magazine at the time, and since the Giant was writing comics FOR that magazine at the time, it sounded like he might have been passed a note "Hey, give this a once-over before we release it".

As you describe it, yeah, it's a much more significant strike against the nightmare beast.

[Keltest]

Honestly, the fact that we have to clarify "Athasian" is a bit of a con too, even if the stats were easily available at the time. Its the kind of D&D minutiae that would turn the reveal scene into a complete anticlimax if somebody suddenly had to exposit that this was different from a regular nightmare beast in ways that only make sense to a fairly small D&D playing crowd, and made no sense in the context of the comic's world.

[b_jonas]

The specific version of [the Athasian Nightmare Beast] that fits the FBS better than all the others was publicly posted as a beta version in an official D&D forum, asking for feedback. I copy-pasted the data (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=20077752&postcount=944) then And that was posted on the forum in 2015-06 2005-06, while Rich decided about the MitD earlier, around 2004-09.

(Update 2023-03-04T18:37Z: fixed date, I was stupid and wrote 2015 instead of 2005.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And that was posted on the forum in 2015-06, while Rich decided about the MitD earlier, around 2004-09.

I don't remember the exact dates, but the gap was of about 3 months, not 10+ years.

GW

[Crusher]

So sorry. "Hunting Horror." Thank you for the work that you

Nuts!

You’re absolutely right. It’s funny, I was typing it out while adding up votes, had a typo and it auto-corrected to Haunting. I thought “Oh, I have to change that before I finish” but I forgot. Then after it was done I was copy-pasting stuff over, saw it again and thought “Oh, right, I need to fix that” and then was instantly distracted by a shiny object and forgot again. Fixing it now.

[Ruck]

Nuts!

You’re absolutely right. It’s funny, I was typing it out while adding up votes, had a typo and it auto-corrected to Haunting. I thought “Oh, I have to change that before I finish” but I forgot. Then after it was done I was copy-pasting stuff over, saw it again and thought “Oh, right, I need to fix that” and then was instantly distracted by a shiny object and forgot again. Fixing it now.

Stay tuned, because after (re-)learning about just how severe the issues with the ANB are, and thinking the Uvuudaum has too many flaws to fit, I might just drop them both entirely from my guesses. I think it's either the Protean or something we haven't uncovered yet. (But I also assume that given how long this thread has been going on, there is very little we haven't uncovered.)

[Crusher]

Oh, I misinterpreted the con then. I was under the impression that it was much further along in development and that materials had been distributed for final peer review before a pending release. Since D&D was prone to peppering ideas, monsters, and stats into their magazine at the time, and since the Giant was writing comics FOR that magazine at the time, it sounded like he might have been passed a note "Hey, give this a once-over before we release it".

As you describe it, yeah, it's a much more significant strike against the nightmare beast.

So, what is (are) your best guess(es) as to what MitD's species is?


Stay tuned, because after (re-)learning about just how severe the issues with the ANB are, and thinking the Uvuudaum has too many flaws to fit, I might just drop them both entirely from my guesses. I think it's either the Protean or something we haven't uncovered yet. (But I also assume that given how long this thread has been going on, there is very little we haven't uncovered.)

Its funny, I was thinking about that as I was putting together the guess league table this time. Two things, really. First, I have never added up the scores for a particular Pokemon, figuring it'd be a problem. But it occurred to me that if I did, I suspect it'd probably be roughly in Zodar/Glabrezu territory which is pretty respectable. Second, after noticing that, I wondered if I should be adding up the "Something not yet guessed" guesses as another pseudo-candidate. I don't think its gotten quite as many votes as the Pokemon, but it'd probably in Loculi territory.

But then the REAL issue is, what if someone guessed "something not yet guessed" back in like 2018 and THEN later the Xenocrysth gets proposed. What happens then? That word "yet" is tricky, because technically it'd encompass the Loculi and Xenocrysth and other things that hadn't been guessed "yet", but I'm probably not going to go back and figure out when each species was initially guessed. So technically their predicts are going to get switched to "something not guessed", removing the "yet". Which is unfortunate, because it means the pool of monsters their guess encompasses slowly gets smaller over time. Not by a ton, but by a little, and specifically the best ones. I feel bad about it, but it feels like a fair compromise between the spirit of the game and what I'm willing to do.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But then the REAL issue is, what if someone guessed "something not yet guessed" back in like 2018 and THEN later the Xenocrysth gets proposed. What happens then? That word "yet" is tricky

I'd request you list it not as "guessed" but as "proposed", since I assume it is supposed to encompass the totality of entries in section 3, rather than the more limited selection of ones in your guess list.

As to the thorny issue of the "yet", given you already record the date in which each guess is made, I'd imagine you'd want to style it as "not yet proposed at time of recording" instead ("NYPATOR"), and thus if what turns out to be the correct proposal comes after that point, they can still claim accuracy of guess.

GW

[C-Dude]

So, what is (are) your best guess(es) as to what MitD's species is?
I don't think I can pick one, honestly.

I was thinking about the mythological Tarasque (not the D&D one, also not on the FBS list, but already on the proposed list). The parallel between the beast being pacified by a person of faith and MitD being pacified by O-Chul is palpable, not to mention such a creature was fabled to be tremendously ravenous, and durable (at least its carapace, that is). It would also be surprising if such a thing could speak. Still, this six-legged man-eating turtle-lion suffers from most of the same problems the D&D version does, save the size problem.

It seems a lot of the options fall apart because of the escape, and there because there is not access to a wish. What if MitD wasn't directly responsible for it, though... perhaps the wish was gifted from another entity, such as the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission? They were watching the fight, and giving a random party a wish without informing them they have it is a terribly fiendish thing to do. Without more IFCC information I suppose that's not much more than speculation, though.
Oh, they can't interact directly without an explicit deal, nevermind.

So I guess if you need to tally me, throw me in the NYPATOR crowd.

[Precure]

That reminds me: I still didn't get an answer regarding whether Protean can use Wish or not.

[Kish]

Pretty sure you did, and it's no unless you can find a creature somewhere with Wish as an extraordinary (not spell-like or supernatural) ability.

[Precure]

Pretty sure you did

Pretty sure I didn't.


it's no unless you can find a creature somewhere with Wish as an extraordinary (not spell-like or supernatural) ability.

I don't think I understand, but I'll take it as "Protean can't use Wish"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Pretty sure I didn't.

Yes (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25708406&postcount=1168) you (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25714208&postcount=1232) were (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25714241&postcount=1239). Protean explains the escape with teleport, not wish, as explicitly mentioned in the OP.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Pretty sure I didn't.

And in the same post you say you don't think you understand the word "no," so if you're still confused you're on your own.

[Precure]

Yes (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25708406&postcount=1168) you (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25714208&postcount=1232) were (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25714241&postcount=1239). Protean explains the escape with teleport, not wish, as explicitly mentioned in the OP.

Grey Wolf

"Pretty sure I didn't" as in "I didn't get an answer to my question whether Protean can use Wish or not" which is the case since you didn't answer that and instead began an argument for teleport.


And in the same post you say you don't think you understand the word "no," so if you're still confused you're on your own.

I understand "no" but the loaded part of your answer makes me question whether you were serious or sarcastic. Still, I accept it as a no.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"Pretty sure I didn't" as in "I didn't get an answer to my question whether Protean can use Wish or not" which is the case since you didn't answer that and instead began an argument for teleport.

I could argue that I answered it implicitly in the first linked post (not to mention in the OP), but I don't need to because how is this, in your opinion, not an answer to your damn question, Precure?

I'm not about to dismiss the protean, or any other teleport-capable candidate, just because they do not have access to Wish.

GW

[Precure]

Sorry for not noticing that the question I asked on February 15 is answered on February 22 on a unrelated post in a very indirect manner.

[Kish]

In your shoes, I would also be sorry for the "instead of reading the pros and cons of the protean or reading the creature description myself, I'm going to say that I'm guessing it's the protean only if it has one particular ability, and later complain that no one broke down what was already in the thread into pieces sufficiently bite-sized for me" thing, but we're very different people, I gather.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In your shoes, I would also be sorry for the "instead of reading the pros and cons of the protean or reading the creature description myself, I'm going to say that I'm guessing it's the protean only if it has one particular ability, and later complain that no one broke down what was already in the thread into pieces sufficiently bite-sized for me" thing, but we're very different people, I gather.

It seems it was utterly unreasonable of us to expect her to have been paying any attention. Can't say I'm fully onboard by this new tradition where we start off each thread demonstrating how appropriate the thread title is. On the other hand, maybe we can weaponise it by naming the next one "MitD XIX: We've figured it out, guys"?

GW

[dmc91356]

Count me as an early adopter of that title. We can wish it into existence! (So long as it's an Ex. ability, of course . . . )

[Precure]

In your shoes, I would also be sorry for the "instead of reading the pros and cons of the protean or reading the creature description myself, I'm going to say that I'm guessing it's the protean only if it has one particular ability, and later complain that no one broke down what was already in the thread into pieces sufficiently bite-sized for me" thing, but we're very different people, I gather.

Except, there is nothing about Wish in Protean's pros and cons, like other candidates that can teleport; and in Ruck's essay; and did you seriously think I didn't search for it in the internet before asking it here?

[Sir_Norbert]

MitD XIX: It's really Eugene

[Precure]

MitD XIX: It's really Eugene

+1 MitD XIX: It's really Eugene

[Keltest]

Page 2 is perhaps the most premature attempt to name a new thread I have personally witnessed.

[Throknor]

Can't say I'm fully onboard by this new tradition where we start off each thread demonstrating how appropriate the thread title is.
I hadn't noticed that specifically but it has felt like the last couple have started off in a seemingly random debate of some kind without any new information from a comic.

[Doug Lampert]

Page 2 is perhaps the most premature attempt to name a new thread I have personally witnessed.

We can do it on page 1 next time. The real challenge is to get Grey Wolf C to put it into the first post for thread XX.

[Ruck]

It seems it was utterly unreasonable of us to expect her to have been paying any attention. Can't say I'm fully onboard by this new tradition where we start off each thread demonstrating how appropriate the thread title is. On the other hand, maybe we can weaponise it by naming the next one "MitD XIX: We've figured it out, guys"?

GW

Happy to be of service.

[dancrilis]

That reminds me: I still didn't get an answer regarding whether Protean can use Wish or not.

Yes - providing one of at least two criteria are met.

1. There is a creature that has an extraordinary ability to cast wish (such a creature could be homebrew such as the Lucky Cat below).

The statistics presented here describe a Lucky Cat.

Lucky Cat
Size/Type: Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: ½ d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 size, +2 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-12
Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d2-4)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d2-4) and bite -1 melee (1d3-4)
Space/Reach: 2½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Balance +10, Climb +6, Hide +16*, Jump +10,
Listen +3, Move Silently +8, Spot +3
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon FinesseB
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Domesticated or solitary
Challenge Rating: ¼
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —

Combat
Lucky Cats prefer to sneak up on their prey.

Skills
Lucky Cats have a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks. Lucky Cats have a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks. They use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus rises to +8.

Lucky (Ex):
Once in its life a Lucky Cat can cast Wish.

Giving a protean any ability you can think of is relatively simple if you allow homebrew creatures.

2. If you wanted to avoid hombrew the proteans can cast wish from a scroll (or similiar) - as such if the creature eat a scroll of wish and copied the 'Item Use' from a Lilitu they could cast it no problem (and we know that the creature does eat paper (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html) on occassion and has been hanging around a wizards base (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0096.html) and a sorcerers tower (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) in the recent past where it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to find such a scroll).


However proteans have the negative of being able to cast as 9th level clerics from established material (no homebrew needed), this is done via the extraordinary ability Mock Divinity which would allow for animate dead.

[lio45]

Yes - providing one of at least two criteria are met.Yes, of course; just like if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride.

Personally, I'd veto both "A Protean in a world of unlimited conveniently-homebrewed creatures" and "A Protean that has swallowed a scroll of Wish earlier off-panel". I'd rather cast my vote for a heavily templated potted plant (and for Crusher: note the conditional tense.)

[georgie_leech]

Except, there is nothing about Wish in Protean's pros and cons, like other candidates that can teleport; and in Ruck's essay; and did you seriously think I didn't search for it in the internet before asking it here?

The point of including Wish in, say, the Glabezru's entry is because that is their method for fulfilling that scene. The MitD doesn't need Wish specifically, just that it needs someway to do the thing where Vaarsuvius and O-chul get instantly transported elsewhere. That is, you're getting pushback for treating the Pro as "has Wish" rather than "can explain the Escape Scene."

[C-Dude]

Right, shapeshifting to a creature that has greater teleport as a natural ability also explains the scene without necessity of a wish. For instance, if the protean shapeshifted into an Aurumach (a Rilmani outsider of the true-neutral persuasion), he could use that creature's inherent ability to simulate a teleport without error (greater teleport) to achieve the same result, without needing a wish. Without the wisdom to KNOW that's what he was doing, MitD wouldn't be able to replicate that scenario.

I still don't like Protean as the candidate, but the escape scene isn't as big a con against it as it seems.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Right, shapeshifting to a creature that has greater teleport as a natural ability also explains the scene without necessity of a wish. For instance, if the protean shapeshifted into an Aurumach (a Rilmani outsider of the true-neutral persuasion), he could use that creature's inherent ability to simulate a teleport without error (greater teleport) to achieve the same result, without needing a wish.

... I cannot find this Rilmani/Aurumach creature in 3.5 (a few references to it in 5), but I'm going to guess it does not in fact have teleport as an extraordinary ability in 3.5, or if it does, it is self-only + 50lb. because that's what is usually the case.

GW

[Precure]

Yes - providing one of at least two criteria are met.

Is there way for Protean to have (or turn into somehing that have) high Sorcerer levels?

[Jasdoif]

... I cannot find this Rilmani/Aurumach creature in 3.5 (a few references to it in 5), but I'm going to guess it does not in fact have teleport as an extraordinary ability in 3.5 ....Correct; the rilmani aurumach appears in Fiend Folio and its teleportation is one of its spell-like abilities.

[InvisibleBison]

Is there way for Protean to have (or turn into somehing that have) high Sorcerer levels?

I think Redcloak's remark about MitD needing to gain 5 levels of cleric precludes MitD from being a high-level sorcerer, either through having class levels or inherent casting, as a high-level sorcerer could gain the ability to cast animate dead by gaining a level or two of sorcerer and either selecting it as a spell known or retraining one of their previously selected spells into animate dead. This objection wouldn't apply to a protean that only acquired sorcerer casting through a convenient assumed extraordinary ability for a single scene, but spellcasting is as far as I know a natural ability, not an extraordinary one.

[Kish]

Is there way for Protean to have (or turn into somehing that have) high Sorcerer levels?
No. That's not how the protean works; it duplicates other creatures' extraordinary abilities (which is a game term). It has great power but also defined power. This has come up multiple times from the other angle, with someone who considers "can duplicate other creature's abilities at will" close enough to a description of the protean's abilities saying it would be a ripoff because it "can do anything."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

if the protean shapeshifted into an Aurumach (a Rilmani outsider of the true-neutral persuasion), he could use that creature's inherent ability to simulate a teleport without error (greater teleport) to achieve the same result

As confirmed by Jasdoif, no he can't. The protean can only copy extraordinary (Ex) abilities.

GW

[Ruck]

Maybe the next thread title should be "No, the Protean Cannot 'Do Anything'."

[Tubercular Ox]

Maybe the next thread title should be "No, the Protean Cannot 'Do Anything'."

And then we can send that thread back in time to Rich so he'll know the limitations of the Protean when considering whether to pick it or not.

[Kish]

And then we can send that thread back in time to Rich so he'll know the limitations of the Protean when considering whether to pick it or not.
Right, because Rich should be assumed not to understand D&D rules by default, especially as they relate to whatever he picked for the creature in the darkness.

[Precure]

I think Redcloak's remark about MitD needing to gain 5 levels of cleric precludes MitD from being a high-level sorcerer, either through having class levels or inherent casting, as a high-level sorcerer could gain the ability to cast animate dead by gaining a level or two of sorcerer and either selecting it as a spell known or retraining one of their previously selected spells into animate dead. This objection wouldn't apply to a protean that only acquired sorcerer casting through a convenient assumed extraordinary ability for a single scene, but spellcasting is as far as I know a natural ability, not an extraordinary one.

I think it's also possible that Redcloak isn't aware of it. Neither he nor Xykon suspected MitD of the escape scene, they underestimate his intelligence, and Rich's words on it ("the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him") could be read as MitD did it due to the powers not strictly belongs to its species.

[Kish]

Could be read as what, now?

[Tzardok]

If I understand Precure's argumentation correctly, it goes like this:


MitD saves O-Chul and V using powers it doesn't know about
Neither Xykon nor Redcloak suspect MitD of being the culprit, which means they don't know about that ability either
Both Redcloak and Xykon have been established as knowing what species MitD is
Therefore MitD may possess abilties that its species usually doesn't have
Therefore all statements Redcloak and Xykon make about MitD's capabilities are suspect

[Ruck]

Neither Xykon nor Redcloak suspect MitD of being the culprit, which means they don't know about that ability either

I don't think this follows. They don't suspect MitD because so far he's been entirely ineffective at doing anything, much less doing anything of his own volition.

[Tzardok]

I agree. I just tried to represent what I see as another one's argument as neutrally as possible

[Peelee]

I agree. I just tried to represent what I see as another one's argument as neutrally as possible

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

[Keltest]

What makes a man turn neutral? List for gold? Power? Or was he just born with a heart full of neutrality?

All I know is my gut says "Maybe."

[Tzardok]

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

I dunno, man. All I can tell you is that I'm Playful Evil with Serious Good tendencies.

[Beni-Kujaku]

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?

I guess that could be a domain power for LG, LE, CG or CE clerics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If I understand Precure's argumentation correctly, it goes like this:
I can't say I understood Precure's latest post, so I am going to assume this is sufficiently accurate and address it.


Neither Xykon nor Redcloak suspect MitD of being the culprit, which means they don't know about that ability either
Incorrect. RC doesn't suspect MitD because he wasn't there to watch the event, when he did come back it was hardly a priority, and in any case, any wizard capable of teleporting into the tower can be presumed to have a means of egress (Contingency (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html), for example). RC has no reason to suspect MitD at all. Xykon was there but immediately assumes that MitD has done nothing as usual (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html).


Both Redcloak and Xykon have been established as knowing what species MitD is
No, they haven't. RC has, but while MitD assumes Xykon might know, there is no reason to think Xykon cares about it. He cares about power, and in MitD's case that power comes in the form of megaton punches.


Therefore MitD may possess abilties that its species usually doesn't have
Obviously, a conclusion based on incorrect premises doesn't follow. But beyond the shaky logic, the real issue with this statement is that it implies that the Escape isn't an actual clue for MitD's species. I am suspicious of any argument that is based on declaring any MitD scene to be ignorable, and especially one of the central ones. "Oh, no, the escape scene is not a clue, because maybe MitD has a ring of wishes stashed about his person" is a weird way for Rich to approach a guessing game he expects someone to figure out. Especially since he could have set up the scene in a way in which MitD's species was central to it (which is, in fact, exactly what I think happened).


Therefore all statements Redcloak and Xykon make about MitD's capabilities are suspect
This wouldn't follow even if all the other statements were correct, and it certainly doesn't follow ones that aren't.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?


All I know is my gut says "Maybe."

If I don't make it, tell my wife "hello."

[Tubercular Ox]

Right, because Rich should be assumed not to understand D&D rules by default, especially as they relate to whatever he picked for the creature in the darkness.

No, I'm talking about before he picked the Protean, when he was first reading its monster entry while asking himself if this was a good fit for what he wanted. The Protean has a massively open-ended ability printed on it. The fear that it could do anything would be there. We know it would be there because so many people come into this thread asking if it can do anything that Ruck suggested enshrining the chore of telling them otherwise in the thread title.

So who told Rich otherwise? Who reassured him that no angry fans would come after him after the reveal for missing a really obvious solution to a scene? Present-but-unresearched abilities that he's not in control of threaten the tension of the plot at every moment. And researching the abilities makes the Protean an order of magnitude more effort to write than any monster whose abilities are all printed in one spot.

[Kish]

No, I'm talking about before he picked the Protean, when he was first reading its monster entry while asking himself if this was a good fit for what he wanted. The Protean has a massively open-ended ability printed on it. The fear that it could do anything would be there. We know it would be there because so many people come into this thread asking if it can do anything that Ruck suggested enshrining the chore of telling them otherwise in the thread title.

So who told Rich otherwise? Who reassured him that no angry fans would come after him after the reveal for missing a really obvious solution to a scene? Present-but-unresearched abilities that he's not in control of threaten the tension of the plot at every moment. And researching the abilities makes the Protean an order of magnitude more effort to write than any monster whose abilities are all printed in one spot.
I don't know how anyone could logically have gotten from your post that I responded to to this, but. If one is sending information back in time so that Rich isn't concerned about "angry fans coming after him," the thing to send back in time would be, "Well before you start the last book of your series, you will be so used to fans screaming about everything from being confused by Belkar's 'short swords turning into daggers' for the weapon shrinkage joke, to their thinking Anti-Magic Field shouldn't override Forcecage, to protesting every time you have an 'evil' creature not act like a murderbot, that you will be completely inured to it."

Also, Ox, it's been documented that negative campaigns don't get people to vote for the campaigner's desired candidate, you know. Jabbing at and trying to undermine the protean, even if you are completely successful, might lead to a surge in relatively popularity for the infernal and slaad but will not lead anyone to the candidate you want. Not to imply that you're pushing one specific candidate just because your sig says you are.

[Precure]

Could be read as what, now?

Could be read as "it's a power MitD has due to his latent sorcerer levels, instead of a power he has as part of his species" since no one seems to know that he has that power.



MitD saves O-Chul and V using powers it doesn't know about
Neither Xykon nor Redcloak suspect MitD of being the culprit, which means they don't know about that ability either
Both Redcloak and Xykon have been established as knowing what species MitD is
Therefore MitD may possess abilties that its species usually doesn't have
Therefore all statements Redcloak and Xykon make about MitD's capabilities are suspect



I wouldn't express it like that, but mostly correct.


I don't think this follows. They don't suspect MitD because so far he's been entirely ineffective at doing anything, much less doing anything of his own volition.

That doesn't contradict anything. They are underestimating his abilities due to how ineffectually he acted before.

[Kish]

Okay, so are you arguing for a specific creature, Precure?

[Precure]

Okay, so are you arguing for a specific creature, Precure?

Protean with sorcerer levels enough to cast Wish, if it's possible rule-wise. If it can't be a sorcerer, then no.

[Tubercular Ox]

Also, Ox, it's been documented that negative campaigns don't get people to vote for the campaigner's desired candidate, you know. Jabbing at and trying to undermine the protean, even if you are completely successful, might lead to a surge in relatively popularity for the infernal and slaad but will not lead anyone to the candidate you want.

Gosh, I hope that's what happens! Can you imagine if they all voted for my candidate? I might have to listen to their complaints instead of dismissing them.

"Hey, TB, how many sheets of paper does it take to fully summarize all of your candidate's powers?"

"Go away, Slaadist, you're just another Outsider here."

I hope Precure is smarter than to arm you with a way to change the subject.

[Tzardok]

Protean with sorcerer levels enough to cast Wish, if it's possible rule-wise. If it can't be a sorcerer, then no.

I mean, there's nothing that prevents proteans from having class levels, but I greatly dislike any explanation that is based on abilities that need training in some way, like class levels.

(Besides the fact that this feels overly narrow. You could just as well assume that the MitD has latent Wilder or Psion levels and manifested Reality Revision. It after all does the same thing as Wish.)

[dancrilis]

Yes, of course; just like if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride.

Personally, I'd veto both "A Protean in a world of unlimited conveniently-homebrewed creatures" and "A Protean that has swallowed a scroll of Wish earlier off-panel". I'd rather cast my vote for a heavily templated potted plant (and for Crusher: note the conditional tense.)

I don't particularly like the protean as an answer as you can kindof jury-rig it to be anything.


Is there way for Protean to have (or turn into somehing that have) high Sorcerer levels?

Kindof - there are (at least) four ways to effectively achieve this, all have various issues with them.

1. Homebrew creature with an extraordinary ability to cast as a sorcerer
- Drawback: Requires hombrew.
2. Take the Swallow Whole (Ex) power from a gibbering orb and eat a sorcerer.
- Drawback: Requires eating a sorcerer and powers only last 24 hours.
3. Take the Mock Divinity (Ex) power from a lilitu, the Siphon Spell Power (Ex) from an Ur-Priest - and cast whatever you want up to 5th level, add in the Planar Travel (Ex) from an Umbral Bolt and you might be able to argue for 7th level spells.
- Could be argued that Planer Travel does not grant access to cast spells of 7th level and so can't be gamed to work with Siphon Spell Power, also could be argued that the Protean cannot take Siphon Spell Power (Ex) as it comes from a class rather then a creature type (it still comes from a creature in the since of a Human Ur-Priest is a creature).
4. Take levels as sorcerer.
- Drawback - not so much a drawback but as this is true of nearly any intelligent creature it probably doesn't need to be stated and I have merely wasted my time writing it.

I would advise being confident in your players reactions before using any of these options but frankly if you have played to the level where you are dealing with a CR29 creature you likely have a very good understanding of them (and probably have a host of homebrew creatures that you have used in your game so you can justify option 1).
If you are simply telling a story then any of the above would work fine (might cause an internet disagreement if anyone is reading your story but I wouldn't worry too much about that).

[Doug Lampert]

If we're munkining ways to get sorcerer on a Protean by stealing extraordinary class abilities by emulating a member of that class, then Sorcerer spell casting itself is, I think, an extraordinary ability (it's a class ability not otherwise specified as natural, spell-like, or supernatural), so presumably you can take the entire spell-casting of any character type.

I would probably call foul on this if someone did it in a game, but I think it's rules legal.

[Peelee]

If we're munkining ways to get sorcerer on a Protean by stealing extraordinary class abilities by emulating a member of that class, then Sorcerer spell casting itself is, I think, an extraordinary ability (it's a class ability not otherwise specified as natural, spell-like, or supernatural), so presumably you can take the entire spell-casting of any character type.

I would probably call foul on this if someone did it in a game, but I think it's rules legal.


Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)
Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical
Would you like to claim that spellcasting is nonmagical?

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure I've never seen an Ex, Su, or Sp tag on any class ability, and correspondingly that "Class, abbreviated Cl." is its own ability type.

Protean with sorcerer levels enough to cast Wish, if it's possible rule-wise. If it can't be a sorcerer, then no.
If you're giving him 18+ class levels (which he got where? Remember the creature's reaction to the idea of there being scary monsters in Xykon's tower?), why Protean? He (not it) has done nothing that an epic-level sorcerer of any race couldn't do.

[dancrilis]

If we're munkining ways to get sorcerer on a Protean by stealing extraordinary class abilities by emulating a member of that class, then Sorcerer spell casting itself is, I think, an extraordinary ability (it's a class ability not otherwise specified as natural, spell-like, or supernatural), so presumably you can take the entire spell-casting of any character type.

I would probably call foul on this if someone did it in a game, but I think it's rules legal.

I could be wrong but I don't think unstated defaults to extraordinary, and so spells are not extraordinary.

You can see an example of this under cleric (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) aura is listed as '(Ex)' where spells are not.

[Jasdoif]

an extraordinary ability (it's a class ability not otherwise specified as natural, spell-like, or supernatural)If there's a default I'm pretty sure it'd have to be natural, as extraordinary/supernatural/spell-like get marked (Ex)/(Su)/(Sp) and natural doesn't have a similar tag.

[InvisibleBison]

If there's a default I'm pretty sure it'd have to be natural, as extraordinary/supernatural/spell-like get marked (Ex)/(Su)/(Sp) and natural doesn't have a similar tag.

Yes, this is correct: "Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like." (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalAbilities)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't particularly like the protean as an answer as you can kindof jury-rig it to be anything.

No you can't, as I have explained way too many times to keep count of.


If you're giving him 18+ class levels (which he got where? Remember the creature's reaction to the idea of there being scary monsters in Xykon's tower?), why Protean? He (not it) has done nothing that an epic-level sorcerer of any race couldn't do.

I too would like to know why section 2d - Class Levels, which like all augments can be appleid to any and all creatures, is targeted exclusively at the protean. Particularly in view that class levels are the weakest of all augments, given that MitD has not done anything to gain any XP at all in-comic, and has never demonstrated any class level abilities, regardless of what his base species is.

And of course, see above for my opinion on any explanation that renders an entire MitD scene irrelevant because its explanation does not depend on the base abilities. This whole subthread is predicated on the assertion "meh, the escape scene is irrelevant to the guessing game, because any creature we pick could be said to have 20 levels of pure caster gained off-screen".

Grey Wolf

[dancrilis]

No you can't, as I have explained way too many times to keep count of.


Well I did say kindof - but for clarity what can't I jury-rig it into?

[Kish]

Well I did say kindof - but for clarity what can't I jury-rig it into?
I believe Grey Wolf is rejecting "protean which copied an ability from this monster my brother-in-law made up for his campaign" as functionally turning "it is possible to guess" into horsecrap, and thus being the kind of ripoff Rich will not do. Thus, if the creature is a protean, he is a protean who can explain everything with official monsters' abilities.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well I did say kindof - but for clarity what can't I jury-rig it into?

Into using wish. Into becoming a dragon. Indeed, into any creature that has more than 4 Ex abilities, or any number of non-Ex abilities. Or, in fact, into looking like anything but a protean. Amongst other things.

And yes, as per Kish's comment, "oh, I posted this cat with wish as an ex ability" does not count, because I really, really doubt that when Rich said he didn't invent MitD's species, he was going to loophole-abuse his way into "I invented this other creature, which has all the abilities I need, and MitD is just copying those".

GW

[dancrilis]

I believe Grey Wolf is rejecting "protean which copied an ability from this monster my brother-in-law made up for his campaign" as functionally turning "it is possible to guess" into horsecrap, and thus being the kind of ripoff Rich will not do. Thus, if the creature is a protean, he is a protean who can explain everything with official monsters' abilities.

If its a protean do you expect Rich to write an article explaining all the various clues and scenes and which creature(s) the abilities came from?

He might - I am not saying he wouldn't, but if he doesn't then whether the creature ability came from a game he played in the 1990s or not doesn't really matter he will have people saying 'proteans cannot do that' and other people stringing along whatever list of unusual abilities needed to say 'yes they can - under these conditions' which might include homebrew or might not - I have given a method above for them to have nearly spellcasting at all, or seperately any spellcasting at all up to 7th level - and I didn't need homebrew for either.


Into using wish. Into becoming a dragon. Indeed, into any creature that has more than 4 Ex abilities, or any number of non-Ex abilities. Or, in fact, into looking like anything but a protean. Amongst other things.


The Gibbering Orb example mentioned above allows it do to any of that - via eating a spellcaster which can cast shapechange and wish (edit: there is an arguement that could be made that if it took the ability copying a Gibbering Orb who had already fed it would gain the ability without needing to eat personally, and so have permanent access to such powers - I don't like this arguement but it isn't entirely unfair to extrapolate based on how the protean ability seems to work in the lore).
The Divine Mockery plus others example comes close by allowing access to polymorph.

[Kish]

If its a protean do you expect Rich to write an article explaining all the various clues and scenes and which creature(s) the abilities came from?
Of course not.


He might - I am not saying he wouldn't, but if he doesn't then whether the creature ability came from a game he played in the 1990s or not doesn't really matter he will have people saying 'proteans cannot do that' and other people stringing along whatever list of unusual abilities needed to say 'yes they can - under these conditions' which might include homebrew or might not - I have given a method above for them to have nearly spellcasting at all, or seperately any spellcasting at all up to 7th level - and I didn't need homebrew for either.

Both you and the ox have this weird idea that Rich must care a lot whether some readers are going to be willfully obtuse. Doesn't matter? It will matter totally whether Rich actually made the creature something that could be figured out, and not in the least that some readers will inevitably shake their fists and go "but you contradicted this assumption I made, that's the same as lying!"

Look, in this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), one of two things happens. The ancient black dragon casts Anti-Magic Field, nullifying the Forcecage, a ruling which at least one person thought was wrong as the similar spell Forcewall is specifically immune to Anti-Magic Field. Rich brushed the objection off, saying "I don't."

Or: The ancient black dragon casts Ihateverboseelves, a spell which just happens to render Vaarsuvius helpless.

Which one of those actually happens?

Is there a difference there? I'd say saying that there is no difference between "Protean mimics this documented Ex. ability" and "Protean mimics this homebrew ability" is functionally identical to saying "no, there is no difference," and in both cases it's an answer that doesn't even come from a solar system I recognize.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Gibbering Orb example mentioned above allows it do to any of that - via eating a spellcaster which can cast shapechange and wish (edit: there is an arguement that could be made that if it took the ability copying a Gibbering Orb who had already fed it would gain the ability without needing to eat personally, and so have permanent access to such powers - I don't like this arguement but it isn't entirely unfair to extrapolate based on how the protean ability seems to work in the lore).

No. The gibbering orb loses any and all such powers 24 hours after ingestion ("Stolen spells and spell-like abilities are lost after 24 hours."). At best, a protean would have to duplicate the ability, find someone to eat, and retain the gibbering orb power for that time. MitD did not eat anyone capable of casting wish in the run up to the escape. Nor can a gibbering orb even swallow whole a dragon, so even in the hypothetical case of any protean, anywhere, you still haven't given me what I requested.

Oh, and it also cannot copy Su or Ex abilities, so that'd still be an issue for creatures with any number of Su powers, and more than 3 Ex powers.


The Divine Mockery plus others example comes close by allowing access to polymorph.
Link?

GW

[Precure]

If you're giving him 18+ class levels, why Protean? He has done nothing that an epic-level sorcerer of any race couldn't do.

I'm probably cheating here, but I find Protean as the best candidate compared to other leading candidates, and Ruck's storyline reasons were convincing.

[Kish]

Okay then. I think accepting "Teleport could do it" would take less of a painful stretch than the 18+ sorcerer levels, but that's me.

[Tubercular Ox]

Both you and the ox.

dancrilis is telling you the wonky things the Protean can currently do. My argument is that the only reason you're not worried about what the Protean can do is because you've invested significant time making sure it can't do anything wonky, and my question is why we assume Rich would invest that much time into the Protean when there are so many monsters that can do the same job as the Protean without the burden.

[Keltest]

Sorcerer is the easiest class to swallow by far, and a sorcerous awakened plant could certainly be the mitd, but it's the same problem as a template stack in that it's turtles all the way down and the actual creature becomes unimportant.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorcerer is the easiest class to swallow by far, and a sorcerous awakened plant could certainly be the mitd, but it's the same problem as a template stack in that it's turtles all the way down and the actual creature becomes unimportant.

I'd rank any class levels under the template stack. At least with templates the creature is definitely born into those powers (and you could squint a bit and argue there might be a clue in the dad's size). Whilst a sorcerer can by lore just develop the powers without studying or practicing, they still need to get XP from somewhere.

But splitting hairs, really. My biggest issue with either templates or class levels is not "how easy it is for a creature to acquire them", it is, as you rightly point out, that the base creature quickly becomes irrelevant.

GW

[dancrilis]

Of course not.
I think we agree here.



Both you and the ox have this weird idea that Rich must care a lot whether some readers are going to be willfully obtuse. Doesn't matter? It will matter totally whether Rich actually made the creature something that could be figured out, and not in the least that some readers will inevitably shake their fists and go "but you contradicted this assumption I made, that's the same as lying!"

Look, in this strip (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), one of two things happens. The ancient black dragon casts Anti-Magic Field, nullifying the Forcecage, a ruling which at least one person though was wrong as the similar spell Forcewall is specifically immune to Anti-Magic Field. Rich brushed the objection off, saying "I don't."

Or: The ancient black dragon casts Ihateverboseelves, a spell which just happens to render Vaarsuvius helpless.

Which one of those actually happens?

Is there a difference there? I'd say saying that there is no difference between "Protean mimics this documented Ex. ability" and "Protean mimics this homebrew ability" is functionally identical to saying "no, there is no difference," and in both cases it's an answer that doesn't even come from a solar system I recognize.

Don't get what you mean here at all.

If he doesn't break it down some people will decide for themselves how it was possible and other people will reject those as potential options - and we will never know if those ways are correct or incorrect and it won't matter.

If one is willing to accept protean based on what one has seen so far there is likely nothing it could do which would void that - if one is not willing to accept protean based on what one has seen so far there is likely nothing it could do which would make that more acceptable.

A protean could do what the creature has done I have no real doubts about that I just view it effectively as the same level of answer as homebrew creature or heavily templated creature - it is merely an answer that raises other questions as to which abilities/what are the stats of the homebrew/which templates etc.

I get that other people seem to think it is a good answer - if it works out for them hope they are happy, if it turns out to be a series of templates hope they aren't too disappointed, if it turns out to be a Living Wall (from Ravenloft) hope they don't lose the plot.


No. The gibbering orb loses any and all such powers 24 hours after ingestion ("Stolen spells and spell-like abilities are lost after 24 hours."). At best, a protean would have to duplicate the ability, find someone to eat, and retain the gibbering orb power for that time.
That would be how I would normally read it but it is not the only way to read it.
The EX ability gives the spell like abilities and the Protean in lore looks around for abilities to take - I am not convinced it is unreasonable that a protean copying the powers wouldn't get the entire referenced ability at the time it noted it rather then merely the top level.
Or more directly if The Giant decided to explain it (which I doubt) and that was the explanation I would shrug and be fine with it (still thinking that protean is just an easy answer to justify any power a DM wants).


Nor can a gibbering orb even swallow whole a dragon, so even in the hypothetical case of any protean, anywhere, you still haven't given me what I requested.
You can assume the form of a dragon with Shapechange and you can get that spell by eating the right casters.



Link?

Apologies I should have said 'Mock Divinity' (page 43 of the Fiendish Codex 1) rather then 'Divine Mockery' my bad for not confirming the name first - it effectively gives level 9 cleric casting, this combined with Siphon Spell Power (page 73 Book of Vile Darkness) allows for effectively any spell up to the highest level the creature can cast to be cast (cleric 9 allows for 5th level spells so works for polymorph), if you combine this further you can increase the level of spells that a creature can cast such as Planer Travel (224 of the Epic Level Handbook) which allows 7th level spells to be cast (and so makes Limited Wish available).
Some of this I would be dubious about a DM doing but it is I think a debatable point (this dubiousness is mentioned above as a drawback for justifing casting as a sorcerer).

[Flange]

What about a Wingless Wonder?

A Wingless Wonder is a goofy, egg shaped monster that just wanders and eats, has wild magic, and has an anti-magic effect. According to its lore, it was a popular polymorph shape to humiliate losers of magic duels, and also a popular disguise for wizards who need to be unfindable. In that state, they keep the ability to cast spells at will as well. Specifically the Drow are said to use this form for themselves and others, and we have at least one drow in this world. They tend to lose their mind and become like a natural wingless wonders by staying in that form, though. More than anything, the silly, food oriented description fits the character really well.

I don't think the natural wingless wonder's magic can do everything needed of the MitD, but a high powered wizard in wonder form could do everything the natural wonder can't. That relies on the wizard having lost their mind being in wonder form and forgetting who they are and where they come from.

Some pros, it can create rain with its random magic effect for the O-Chul scenes with rain helping him sleep. It has an appetite and personality that fit the character. They have weird suction cup feet, making weird tracks like the weird ones Belkar finds. It has poor spotting ability beyond short range, it could literally miss the spot check to see the gates if they're more than a few feet away. A person in wonder form would speak common still, even though the wild creatures wouldn't.

Some cons, it's supposed to have a mouth on top but it always has the food going in under its eyes. It's not naturally strong, so it takes some stretching to make things like slamming Miko work. It's asking a lot for the MitD to both be a hidden monster but for that to also be a disguise for some second wizard character. I'm sure there's more.

There are problems with it, but it could be twisted to work I think. Either way, I think it fits the character even if it doesn't quite match the rules.

[dancrilis]

What about a Wingless Wonder?

Not a bad idea - and apparently they have a potential related species that is more powerful also (source (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wingless_wonder#Related_Species)) the Giant would have been playing before 3rd ed and I do like the idea of him picking a creature that either hasn't been converted or wasn't converted at the time of his choice on what the creature in shadows was.

Either a Wingless Wonder which he decided would be more powerful in 3rd ed or a varient creature which was apparently not published but was more powerful would suit that - and as the wingless wonder can produce flesh to stone (a 6th level spell) a more powerful version being able to produce a 9th level spell (or whatever people like) is not unreasonable.

[Kish]

Gosh, I hope that's what happens! Can you imagine if they all voted for my candidate? I might have to listen to their complaints instead of dismissing them.

"Hey, TB, how many sheets of paper does it take to fully summarize all of your candidate's powers?"

"Go away, Slaadist, you're just another Outsider here."

I hope Precure is smarter than to arm you with a way to change the subject.
I may be a black kettle but you are the most thoroughgoing pot I've ever seen in this thread.

You have never addressed any of the numerous times it has been pointed out that the creature in the darkness longs to be out of the darkness and Xykon is not a member of the Cthulhu Mythos nor the creature's master. Why would more people believing he could be the Hunting Horror change that?

dancrilis is telling you the wonky things the Protean can currently do. My argument is that the only reason you're not worried about what the Protean can do is because you've invested significant time making sure it can't do anything wonky, and my question is why we assume Rich would invest that much time into the Protean when there are so many monsters that can do the same job as the Protean without the burden.
Ox, which takes more words to write: "The Protean can only duplicate Ex abilities, and Rich is not going to pull the massive ripoff of introducing homebrew creatures with everything as Ex. abilities" or your case for the Hunting Horror, back when you were making a case?

Which do you think took more time and/or effort to come up with?

"So many monsters"--again this would be a reason to make a positive case. But you limit yourself to the negative one, poking at the protean's complexity, because when you actually argue for something people say all sorts of mean things, like "no, it's not plausible that he massively exerted himself to hit with overwhelming power when he was trying to hit the lightest," "no, having 21 hit dice doesn't turn Telekinesis into Epic Violent Thrust no matter how much you like the sound of that phrase," and, "no, a creature who voluntarily spends its life lurking in the darkness and exists to serve a being from the Cthulhu Mythos is a terrible match for the creature's story role actually."

You, of course, are the epitome of politeness and it is baffling that people are so harsh as to keep telling you you're wrong. By the way, do I change the subject or do I dismiss your "he can't be using a creature that would take a lot of pages if he sat down and listed every Ex. ability it could possibly have" argument? They're actually not the same thing.

[Tubercular Ox]

If he doesn't break it down some people will decide for themselves how it was possible and other people will reject those as potential options - and we will never know if those ways are correct or incorrect and it won't matter.


So if he doesn't break it down, the stream of people coming into this thread to complain about the Protean won't abate even after Rich reveals it's the Monster in the Dark?


What about a Wingless Wonder?

Man, DnD used to be wild. This is great stuff.

[Kish]

So if he doesn't break it down, the stream of people coming into this thread to complain about the Protean won't abate even after Rich reveals it's the Monster in the Dark?
Yes, Ox. Every one of the thousand strips that goes up after the creature is revealed, will be accompanied by at least one person coming into this thread to say "man, Rich should have made it anything but the protean."

[Jasdoif]

Not a bad idea - and apparently they have a potential related species that is more powerful also (source (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wingless_wonder#Related_Species)) the Giant would have been playing before 3rd ed and I do like the idea of him picking a creature that either hasn't been converted or wasn't converted at the time of his choice on what the creature in shadows was.Wouldn't such a creature be in Dorukan's pit (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) with the rest of the monsters that were never converted to 3rd (and a death dog), though?

[Kish]

Wouldn't such a creature be in Dorukan's pit (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) with the rest of the monsters that were never converted to 3rd (and a death dog), though?
I'd personally be more concerned about...they're comically weak if they're not polymorphed wizards. Why would Redcloak look at one and say, "I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted." If he was somehow sure the wingless wonder in front of him was a powerful polymorphed wizard (and wizards polymorphed into wingless wonders are not able to talk, so the creature being able to speak would not point to that, but to something utterly unexpected and bizarre), and for whatever reason he was confident in that wizard's loyalty rather than treating him with all the hatred he shows for all humans--he shouldn't be thinking merely "this is a secret weapon," but, "I just found Xykon's replacement!"

[Tubercular Ox]

Yes, Ox. Every one of the thousand strips that goes up after the creature is revealed, will be accompanied by at least one person coming into this thread to say "man, Rich should have made it anything but the protean."

I don't think that follows from what dancrilis said, and if I've misunderstood dancrilis, it's not how I imagined it working when I suggested it, either.

[Ruck]

I don't particularly like the protean as an answer as you can kindof jury-rig it to be anything.

No, you can't, and not only has this thread covered that dozens of times because people keep bringing up this objection, we just did again, like, ten posts ago.


dancrilis is telling you the wonky things the Protean can currently do. My argument is that the only reason you're not worried about what the Protean can do is because you've invested significant time making sure it can't do anything wonky, and my question is why we assume Rich would invest that much time into the Protean when there are so many monsters that can do the same job as the Protean without the burden.

I really don't know what you're trying to say, to the point where I can't tell what your process for figuring this out is or what you think anyone else's process is.

[mashlagoo1982]

Would you like to claim that spellcasting is nonmagical?

I was trying to find a comprehensive list of Ex abilities and stumbled upon this old thread.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?218517-List-of-EX-abilities

I'm not sure how I feel about the conclusions in the thread.
I would probably scoff if it was ever presented at a table I play.
But, the short version is that some spell casting is actually considered EX according to RAW and maybe even RAI if the discussion could be found and confirmed..

That is why casters can cast within antimagic field and it doesn't prevent the spell from being cast. It only suppresses the effects of the spell which has been cast. I only skimmed the thread, so my understanding maybe incorrect.

Important Quotes:


All Abilities are Ex, Sp, Na, or Su. Abilities which are not otherwise designated (such as by explicit typing, or by being Special Abilities, or whatever) are Na, but this category only includes abilities inherent to the physical form of the creature. (PHB, SRD, RotG:P)

Special Abilities are a subset of Abilities (SRD). Special Abilities are always Ex, Sp, or Su... NEVER Natural (SRD, MM1, DMG, FF, RotG:P). In general, Special Abilities that are not otherwise marked and without a clear, supernatural element are assumed to be Ex... this includes all abilities that work in Antimagic Fields (FAQ). Special Abilities are divided into two categories, Special Attacks, and Special Qualities (MM, FF). Spells are a Special Attack (MM, MMII, MM3, FF, etc) that works in Antimagic Fields (RotG:A), and thus are Ex.




Indeed, it's found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a
(link is old and doesn't go to discussion anymore) :'-(

It's one of the most in depth discussions by any designer on ability types, which is why I tend to reference it, especially since Skip was one of the lead designers when they made ability types in the first place. But everything he says in that article is found in the books somewhere... he's just clarifying everything there.

RotG:A is Rules of the Game: Antimagic, by the way. That's where they clarify that you do have spellcasting (the ability) when you're in an antimagic field, it's just that the effects of the spells are suppressed temporarily. That's the thing: Spellcasting is a non magical ability (Ex) that creates a magical effect (not an ability). It's much like how Wildshape is an Su ability that grants Na abilities (claw attacks and such).


Please take this with a grain of salt.

I am still looking for a comprehensive list of EX abilities and did not completely read the argument.

I just found it interesting that some people had actually made the argument spellcasting was EX.

[Tzardok]

Those arguments have been around for longer than I have. I've seen Argumentations for Ex, for Su and for Na. I personally think spellcasting should be its own category as it already has its own ruleset, but I don't think anyone is going to convince anyone else soon.

[Kish]

I mean, that was what Doug said here, no need to look to another thread for it.

Looking at the actual quote in that thread...whoever it's even originally from...


It's reasonable to assume that sneak attack is an extraordinary ability. When in doubt, the DM should decide if an unmarked ability qualifies. Anything that lacks a clear, supernatural element should be fair play. assuming the speaker has authority, suggests that spellcasting would absolutely not qualify as it's the clearest supernatural ability of any class feature.

However, later claims in that thread state that the MMV and Fiend Folio list creatures with "(Ex.) casts as a level [something] [somethingelse]."

That. Does not strike me as a well-considered decision. And I would point out that it apparently took until the fifth Monster Manual for someone to put it in print: quite a remove from core. But, those books have been established as existing in OotS, thus the protean could suddenly break out in level-9 cleric spellcasting like a lilutu, and any other spellcasting which is listed as an Ex. ability for some monster in one of them. Untangling the implications of same are left as an exercise for the reader. (Not the general reader; a specific reader, named Grey Wolf.)

[dancrilis]

So if he doesn't break it down, the stream of people coming into this thread to complain about the Protean won't abate even after Rich reveals it's the Monster in the Dark?

I suspect that after the reveal (whatever it turns out to be) most of the forum will move on to other items and this thread won't be needed any more - some will complain, some will praise etc but such is the nature of the internet.


Wouldn't such a creature be in Dorukan's pit (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) with the rest of the monsters that were never converted to 3rd (and a death dog), though?

I read that as all the monsters in the pit were unconverted not that all unconverted monsters were in the pit.
In the case of the creature in shadows it might have been at the circus before the talisman was made - and if it is the theory if it being the other species that is thought to be extinct then it might never have been published at all.


No, you can't
I can and I did in this very thread - you might dislike the way(s) I did so (perhaps you think they are not valid for whatever reason) but if The Giant has decided that the creature is a Protean and that Escape is covered by Wish there are multiple methods available to him to do so - same with virtually any other ability the creature could display.
This is what I mean by saying proteans can be kindof jury-riged to be anything.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I am not convinced it is unreasonable that a protean copying the powers wouldn't get the entire referenced ability at the time it noted it rather then merely the top level.
You not being convinced is irrelevant. People are "not convinced" that an epic creature can't cast violent thrust more powerfully due to being epic. People are "not convinced" that violent thrust can be used to push horses through walls. People are "not convinced" that MitD can't be of a gargantuan species despite being medium-Large sized currently and at best teenagery. And that's just from the last 50 pages. People are "not convinced" about a great deal many things that are clearly contradicted by the actual rules and/or common sense. If your entire argument is that, somewhere, someone will blatantly misread the rules to make the protean do anything, then it is an nonsense argument.


You can assume the form of a dragon with Shapechange and you can get that spell by eating the right casters.
Which we have no evidence of - no-one is feeding level 9 casters to MitD in his gruel. I can't decide if this whole line is blatant strawmanning - i.e. attacking an argument that no-one has made about MitD!protean, or just bait-and-switch, where you decide to be against the protean because if you were the DM you'd be fine with this, even though it clearly is not what we see in the the comic. The reality is that the MitD!Protean argument is not claiming he's actually Pun-pun, abusing polymorph rules to fit. MitD!Protean fits better than most other candidates across most scenes, with the main exception of the Escape scene, which it struggles with, but can have a direct answer to via it's power. An answer that does not involve MitD borrowing a power from fiend folio to cast as a cleric, then using a different power from somewhere else to do I-don't-know-what, then shapechanging into something with Wish, then using that wish to teleport. The whole chain of reasoning is so ridiculously over-the-horizon I am perfectly happy to dismiss it out of hand.

In short, looking at your argument, I don't think it amounts to anything even vaguely plausible, much less the lofty claim that the protean can be jury-rigged to do anything more so than any other creature, given that Pun-pun is already in the OP.

Grey Wolf

[dancrilis]

You not being convinced is irrelevant.

Hagunemnon's travel endlessly, seeking new creatures to duplicate and new extraordinory abilities to assume.

... gain advantage of up to four extraordinory abilities from the forms it mimics ...

Taking those two together it duplicates the extraordinory form it encounters not necessarily the base form.

I take it I have not convinced you - do you think that your own lack of being convinced is irrelevant?

I am not saying it is a must reading (as mentioned I don't like this argument(see #89)) merely that I think it is a fair reading and I would not begrudge the Giant if he applied it like that for his story (I might be more dubious about a DM doing it or doing it as a DM).



I can't decide if this whole line is blatant strawmanning
I am not really making an argument or attacking an arguement - Precure asked a direct question in #29 which I felt I gave a direct answer to in #47 then then asked another direct question to me based on that answer in #52 and again I gave them what I saw as a direct answer in #78, I only mentioned my own dislike of the protean in #78 as lio45 had (seemingly) disliked my answer in their reply in #48.

My take is the protean fits the scenes fine, if the creature is a protean that is fine and doesn't need to much explanation and such explanations are easy to come by for it (if the Giant felt like giving them or if the forum wanted to discuss them) - I just personally don't like the protean as an answer for the same reason that I think you may not like templates to explain the creature as in my opinion it moves the discussion away from the actual creature and onto the abilities.

This dislike is even somewhat odd as I have no issue with templates and in fact no issue with potentially non-published creatures from earlier editions which may only exist in lore (such as the potentially extinct relation of the Wingless Wonder) which could have any abilities at all at The Giant discretion.

[Tzardok]

In that case I may actually be on the same side as dancrillis here. I dislike the protean, while my own guess requires the involvement of a template. I just don't want to make a big deal out of me not liking a very popular option.

[Jasdoif]

However, later claims in that thread state that the MMV and Fiend Folio list creatures with "(Ex.) casts as a level [something] [somethingelse]."
An answer that does not involve MitD borrowing a power from fiend folioFiendish Codex I, actually; the confusion is of course understandable but I just checked and every single instance of a creature with innate spellcasting in Fiend Folio lacks a descriptor (your call on whether that should be read as "it's a natural ability" or "it's just a container for spells, it's not an ability in its own right but we still have to list it somehow"...possibly both). As do those in Monster Manual III (the Monster Manual that gives the Giant a design credit, in case anyone cares about that sort of thing).

Monster Manual V, which I personally feel has the cleanest monster design overall, does have a few creatures with innate spellcasting (for specific reasons, I imagine) and they're given those through an extraordinary ability (for some reason)....But fortunately for the specific MitD scenario, none of that really matters; Fiendish Codex I is 2006 and Monster Manual V is 2007, so they're both years too late to meet the strip 100 determination date of 2004.


Of course, the larger issue is that the dynamic nature of the protean's Alter Shape is conducive towards (ab)using instances of odd design decisions and editing oversights, and in a game where players can take on extraordinary abilities of creatures through polymorph (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) it's not always clear which is which. All I can really add there is the Giant's disdain for the implementation of shape-changing magic.

[Kish]

Monster Manual V, which I personally feel has the cleanest monster design overall, does have a few creatures with innate spellcasting (for specific reasons, I imagine) and they're given those through an extraordinary ability (for some reason)....But fortunately for the specific MitD scenario, none of that really matters; Fiendish Codex I is 2006 and Monster Manual V is 2007, so they're both years too late to meet the strip 100 determination date of 2004.
Oh good.

(If I had the ear of anyone who worked for WotC I'd suggest errata turning those from Ex. to Su., but it doesn't matter here today, as long as no one's going to argue that the protean would necessitate Rich anticipating everything that will ever be introduced as an Ex. ability in the future, which would be, at best, a dire misunderstanding of Rich's demonstrated creative process*, and at worst, a naked display of bad faith.)

*Remember, everyone, Vaarsuvius' level is channa masala.

[Tubercular Ox]

You not being convinced is irrelevant. People are "not convinced" that an epic creature can't cast violent thrust more powerfully due to being epic. People are "not convinced" that violent thrust can be used to push horses through walls. People are "not convinced" that MitD can't be of a gargantuan species despite being medium-Large sized currently and at best teenagery. And that's just from the last 50 pages. People are "not convinced" about a great deal many things that are clearly contradicted by the actual rules and/or common sense. If your entire argument is that, somewhere, someone will blatantly misread the rules to make the protean do anything, then it is an nonsense argument.


So him not being convinced is irrelevant, and your proof of this is how all of the things you're not convinced of are highly relevant.

dancrilis is right, there are things I can think are stupid but still accept it if Rich comes out and says he's going to do the stupid thing to power his story. And if Rich came out and said, "As soon as I read Mock Divinity in the latest Monster Manual, I knew I had to write a scene exposing how ridiculous polymorph rules are. It's a shame it had to wait until the reveal for my satire to be exposed," I'd roll with it. But I'm not holding my breath for him to do that, and I don't think the chance of him doing it goes down if I stamp out the argument of anyone saying he could.

[lio45]

... and you can get that spell by eating the right casters.It's a truism that "A Protean that has just swallowed a Therblewurkersaurus" is a perfect fit on all counts.

[Ruck]

I can and I did in this very thread - you might dislike the way(s) I did so (perhaps you think they are not valid for whatever reason) but if The Giant has decided that the creature is a Protean and that Escape is covered by Wish there are multiple methods available to him to do so - same with virtually any other ability the creature could display.
This is what I mean by saying proteans can be kindof jury-riged to be anything.

Multiple people, most notably Grey Wolf and Kish, have already told you the problems with your reasoning, and I agree with them. Your reasoning involves a combination of contrivances, homebrews, unsupported assumptions which are only assumed because they're necessary for your argument ("What if MitD just happened to eat a sorcerer capable of casting level-9 spells in the time frame necessary for the Escape scene"), and bending the definitions of terms like "Extraordinary Ability."

Not all possibilities you can imagine are equally valid or plausible.


So him not being convinced is irrelevant, and your proof of this is how all of the things you're not convinced of are highly relevant.

What Grey Wolf is not convinced of is that you can simply change rules and definitions to whatever you feel like in order to make your case. If you need to change rules and definitions to whatever you feel like in order to make your case, it's probably a poor case.

[Keltest]

Multiple people, most notably Grey Wolf and Kish, have already told you the problems with your reasoning, and I agree with them. Your reasoning involves a combination of contrivances, homebrews, unsupported assumptions which are only assumed because they're necessary for your argument ("What if MitD just happened to eat a sorcerer capable of casting level-9 spells in the time frame necessary for the Escape scene"), and bending the definitions of terms like "Extraordinary Ability."

Not all possibilities you can imagine are equally valid or plausible.



What Grey Wolf is not convinced of is that you can simply change rules and definitions to whatever you feel like in order to make your case. If you need to change rules and definitions to whatever you feel like in order to make your case, it's probably a poor case.

As opposed to the contrivances and assumptions required for the Protean to work your way, you mean?

On a semi-related note, didn't somebody recently bring up the idea that the rogue Dimensional Anchor required for most teleport spells to explain the Escape scene should have ended due to the Soul Splice breaking? That got glossed over a bit, but its kind of an important explanation for a lot of creatures, including I think the protean. Do we want to maybe examine that a little more closely?

[georgie_leech]

Wait, why would the soulsplice breaking mean the Dimensional Anchor stopped working? Last I checked, once a spell is cast, it stays cast.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On a semi-related note, didn't somebody recently bring up the idea that the rogue Dimensional Anchor required for most teleport spells to explain the Escape scene should have ended due to the Soul Splice breaking? That got glossed over a bit, but its kind of an important explanation for a lot of creatures, including I think the protean. Do we want to maybe examine that a little more closely?

As far as I know, the argument is:
1) Quickened Dimensional Anchor was too high level for V to cast, therefore they cast it from the spell slot of one of the two attached spirits
2) The spirits left before the Escape
3) Therefore the spell effect should be gone by then

This was acknowledged at the time, and other than "Rich made a minor mistake (either forgetting quickened dimension anchor can't be cast by V, or forgot that the effect would fade)" I don't think any other counters held much water.

However, given your obvious obsession with finding something, anything against the protean specifically rather than actually suggest a better candidate or explanation, I don't think I want to have this conversation with you.


Wait, why would the soulsplice breaking mean the Dimensional Anchor stopped working? Last I checked, once a spell is cast, it stays cast.
"Any spell you cast with an ongoing duration will end when the splices expire (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)".

I suspect this line was put in by Rich because he wanted to preempt the "why didn't V just cast every buff known to elfkind on themselves, then dismiss the splices after about 20 seconds so they wouldn't be on the hook" powergaming complaint, and then promptly forgot about it.

GW

[Kish]

I honestly think the Dimensional Anchor argument is kind of weak. The creature is nowhere near the people being teleported; if it's a massive AoE teleport exuding from himself with no selectivity, "why didn't Xykon also land on top of Hinjo" immediately comes to mind, and if it has selectivity, he simply wasn't including himself, no Dimensional Anchor needed--"You have to escape," not "we have to escape."

I also think going from there to "so it can't be Teleport" without a specific candidate in mind that fits* the "has Wish, not mere Teleport" would be unwise.

*Which as previously mentioned, the Ha-Horror does not for reasons which were gone over then, so while ruling out Teleport might knock the protean off the table and would at least knock it closer to the edge of the table, it would also knock the Ha-Horror off the table.

[b_jonas]

The creature is nowhere near the people being teleported I still say that the MitD quietly snuck out of his cage for the ESCAPE and touched Vaarsuvius's and O-Chul's ankle. #661 is specifically drawn such that their feet are just off panel, and very close to the MitD's cage. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) I don't know if the MitD left the cage entirely or just reached out with a long tentacle or similar, it doesn't matter. This is a fair puzzle because the Giant has showed exactly the same method earlier in #448 17th to 19th panels, with O-Chul's ankle just out of the panel boundary (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html).

[Kish]

I still say that the MitD quietly snuck out of his cage for the ESCAPE and touched Vaarsuvius's and O-Chul's ankle.
You can literally see the cage panel surrounding his face as he says ESCAPE (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html). "When I depicted the creature peering through the bars and saying 'you have to ESCAPE' he was actually out of the cage, saying it effectively in Xykon's +8-to-Listen-checks earhole," would definitely take "Rich won't pull a ripoff" off the table.

[Keltest]

As far as I know, the argument is:
1) Quickened Dimensional Anchor was too high level for V to cast, therefore they cast it from the spell slot of one of the two attached spirits
2) The spirits left before the Escape
3) Therefore the spell effect should be gone by then

This was acknowledged at the time, and other than "Rich made a minor mistake (either forgetting quickened dimension anchor can't be cast by V, or forgot that the effect would fade)" I don't think any other counters held much water.

However, given your obvious obsession with finding something, anything against the protean specifically rather than actually suggest a better candidate or explanation, I don't think I want to have this conversation with you.


"Any spell you cast with an ongoing duration will end when the splices expire (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)".

I suspect this line was put in by Rich because he wanted to preempt the "why didn't V just cast every buff known to elfkind on themselves, then dismiss the splices after about 20 seconds so they wouldn't be on the hook" powergaming complaint, and then promptly forgot about it.

GW

Given the lack of a perfect candidate, I'm not sure what else there is to do in this thread besides picking at imperfect candidates to see how they don't work. I would do it for the HH too if I could decipher what Ox is trying to say at all.

[Throknor]

"Any spell you cast with an ongoing duration will end when the splices expire (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)".

I suspect this line was put in by Rich because he wanted to preempt the "why didn't V just cast every buff known to elfkind on themselves, then dismiss the splices after about 20 seconds so they wouldn't be on the hook" powergaming complaint, and then promptly forgot about it.

GW
It could also be an edge case they didn't explain in the moment or only meant spells V couldn't already cast. V can clearly cast a regular Dimensional Anchor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html). All the splice added was 'Quickened'. If this explanation (https://dndtools.org/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/quicken-spell--2330/) is accurate the modifier only affected the timing - it was still one V could cast without help otherwise and therefore might survive the splices ending.

And to counter arguments about spells V cast on themself Superb Dispel (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) took care of them before the Splice ended. So in reality we may have no in-comic verification of the assertion.

[lio45]

I honestly think the Dimensional Anchor argument is kind of weak. The creature is nowhere near the people being teleported; if it's a massive AoE teleport exuding from himself with no selectivity, "why didn't Xykon also land on top of Hinjo" immediately comes to mind, and if it has selectivity, he simply wasn't including himself, no Dimensional Anchor needed--"You have to escape," not "we have to escape."Is there any precedent in the comic for Massive-AoE-Teleport-With-Selectivity-And-Excluding-Oneself? If not, it comes pretty damn close to "something Rich made up" territory, no?

I'd be fine with the Escape being Teleport, if Teleport as shown in the OotSverse -- which is exactly like D&D except in the ways it is shown it is not -- had always been functioning that way, i.e. you can teleport anyone without touching them and without coming along yourself.



This was acknowledged at the time, and other than "Rich made a minor mistake (either forgetting quickened dimension anchor can't be cast by V, or forgot that the effect would fade)" I don't think any other counters held much water.That'd be a major mistake, not a minor one, and it's totally off the table IMO.

If "Rich made a mistake" is allowed, then the front-runner in my honest, sincere opinion is The Ha-Naga With Rich Making The Minor Mistake Of Reading STR130 Rather Than STR30. It's a great fit: yellow eyes, has Wish, and a Baby Ha-Naga that fits under the umbrella gets its STR cut from the adult standard of 130 to an eyeballed ~70, which is more than enough for both the Tower Scene and the Earthquake Scene.

[Ruck]

As opposed to the contrivances and assumptions required for the Protean to work your way, you mean?

I'm not going to engage you if you're only going to be snide and sarcastic instead of making specific critiques.


Given the lack of a perfect candidate, I'm not sure what else there is to do in this thread besides picking at imperfect candidates to see how they don't work. I would do it for the HH too if I could decipher what Ox is trying to say at all.

You don't know what else to do? How about trying to find the best candidate, because the MitD has to be something, not nothing.

[lio45]

It could also be an edge case they didn't explain in the moment or only meant spells V couldn't already cast. V can clearly cast a regular Dimensional Anchor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html). All the splice added was 'Quickened'. If this explanation (https://dndtools.org/feats/players-handbook-v35--6/quicken-spell--2330/) is accurate the modifier only affected the timing - it was still one V could cast without help otherwise and therefore might survive the splices ending.No, definitely not. From your link:

A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level.
It's basically a different spell.

V had the choice of using one of his actions to cast an un-quickened Dimensional Anchor of his own that would survive the splices ending, or else to use one of the spliced soul's spells instead, knowing it would be a free action, with the obvious tradeoff being that it wouldn't survive the end of the splices.

V consciously chose, and benefited from, using the quickened version, which is literally a different spell.

[Tzardok]

No, definitely not. From your link:

It's basically a different spell.

V had the choice of using one of his actions to cast an un-quickened Dimensional Anchor of his own that would survive the splices ending, or else to use one of the spliced soul's spells instead, knowing it would be a free action, with the obvious tradeoff being that it wouldn't survive the end of the splices.

V consciously chose, and benefited from, using the quickened version, which is literally a different spell.

Uhm, the formulation was "Any spell you cast with an ongoing duration will end when the splices expire." Any spell, not just those cast as a benefit of a splice.

[dancrilis]

It's a truism that "A Protean that has just swallowed a Therblewurkersaurus" is a perfect fit on all counts.

If you are using a homebrew creature then the protean doesn't need to swallow anything it merely needs an extraordinary ability, without some extraordinary ability then swallowing something won't help a protean unless they have copied some other power (such as from a gibbering orb).


Multiple people, most notably Grey Wolf and Kish, have already told you the problems with your reasoning, and I agree with them.
I don't but the internet would be pretty boring if everyone agreed all the time about everything.


Your reasoning involves a combination of contrivances, homebrews, unsupported assumptions which are only assumed because they're necessary for your argument ("What if MitD just happened to eat a sorcerer capable of casting level-9 spells in the time frame necessary for the Escape scene"), and bending the definitions of terms like "Extraordinary Ability."
I used different methods - I didn't really combine methods, homebrew doesn't need to be combined with anything to work and most works of fiction are going to have some contrivances.
As for unsupported assumptions I don't think I made any of those - perhaps I am forgetting something.



What Grey Wolf is not convinced of is that you can simply change rules and definitions to whatever you feel like in order to make your case. If you need to change rules and definitions to whatever you feel like in order to make your case, it's probably a poor case.
Don't think I am doing that - just think the rules relating to alter shape when combined with extraordinary abilities that are not static is open to interpretation (most extraordinary abilities are fairly static from what I recall).

To make this about the creature in the shadows lets consider three (of any number of options) possible protean stories for the escape scene.
Protean+Umbral Blot:
The creature encountered an Umbral Blot when it was very young and copied its planer travel ability, this is what it used to help O-Chul and Vaarsuvius escape.

Protean+Gibbering Orb (takes abilities at time it witnesses them):
The creature encountered an Umbral Blot when it was very young and copied its swallow whole ability which made use of a caster at the time, this is what it used to help O-Chul and Vaarsuvius escape.

Protean+Gibbering Orb (takes baseline ability):
The creature encountered an Umbral Blot when it was very young and copied its swallow whole ability, seperately Xykon had been feeding a paladin casters polymorphed into gruel because he thought it was funny (which O-Chul and the creature traded), it was these casters powers that helped O-Chul and Vaarsuvius escape.


All that is fine for me random caster absorpsion with wish is likely a better fit then planer travel in general but also likely adds a few more question marks - so can see what people don't like them (can also see why they don't like the Umbral Blot option).



On a semi-related note, didn't somebody recently bring up the idea that the rogue Dimensional Anchor required for most teleport spells to explain the Escape scene should have ended due to the Soul Splice breaking? That got glossed over a bit, but its kind of an important explanation for a lot of creatures, including I think the protean. Do we want to maybe examine that a little more closely?
Dimensional Anchor in my view is not needed for a teleport option (lets assume the Umbral Blot version above) - if we go with two option I will try to explain why.

Narrative Option (not rules based):
Umbral Blot's don't really teleport via magic they naturally fold space - I think it is reasonable enough that one might be able to do so in a odd manner (particularly one that doesn't really know what it is doing) and if we assume that when Vaarsuvius teleported in that it messed with space a little then tampering with folded space might have effectively thrown the target of the creatures intend back through that fold (and dragged along the Vaarsuvius as the intitial casters).
- Not a great explanation but think it works ok for narrative to tell a story.

Rules Option:
It is worth noting for this that magic immunity for 3.0 and 3.5 is not the same, Iron Golems in 3.5 have the magic immunity listed here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#ironGolem), but back in 3.0 similiar magic immunity didn't make any mention of spell resistance, giving us things like this (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm#adamantineGolem):


An adamantine golem is immune to all magical and supernatural effects.
As such it is (my opinion) fair to argue that if a protean used an Umbral Blot's 'Planer Travel' ability while also using a adamantine golem 'Magic Immunity' ability it would be immune to its own teleport powers while those others it targeted would not be. Magic Immunity like that is help by a few creatures in the Epic Level Handbook.
The wider issue is how it cast it as an immediate action (while Xykon was in the middle of casting meteor swarm), but from a pure rules standpoint I guess a readied action would work.
- Not a great explanation but I like it better then assuming The Giant made a mistake within a crucial part of his own story.

The protean fits fine for the creature the issue I have with it is that effectively 'whats in the mystery box?' having an answer of 'its a brand new mystery box!' isn't very satisfing as an answer to a mystery from my prespective (could however make a very fine joke).

[Kish]

Is there any precedent in the comic for Massive-AoE-Teleport-With-Selectivity-And-Excluding-Oneself?
My answer would be "close enough for me." Tsukiko is able to bring a bunch of wights with her; the teleporting wizard whose name is never given is able to bring the Order with him. By the letter of D&D rules, he would need to be at least level 18, and she would need to be at least level 18 as a wizard (which would mean as Epic as Xykon to also be a Mystic Theurge who can cast Cause Critical Wounds), and all those accompanying them would need to be touching the caster (which they manifestly are not, just standing in a vaguely contiguous formation).

So: Established: Rich doesn't care about number requirements, nor "must be touching the caster" requirements for Teleport spells. The only question I see, is if he then chooses to be very strict about "if you cast a teleport spell you're going along."

I also think if Rich saw Strength 130, he would go "hang on, what?" and look again, and the Ha-Naga's sole defense against direct physical attacks* has DR 5--not nearly enough for Miko's attacks to "tickle" and Belkar and Haley's to not even be noticed.

*Not counting a spell which the Ha-Naga would keep up constantly; I would find it a great stretch that the creature, as presented, renews a spell every 21 hours or anything similar.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

By the letter of D&D rules, he would need to be at least level 18

I know is one thread too late, but I'm going to be pedantic and suggest he was a wizard specialised in teleporting; someone found some prestige class that increased the number of passengers such that he could do it without being level 18.

Got nothin' for Tsukiko, though, so this post is even more pedantic than my average.

GW

[Peelee]

I know is one thread too late, but I'm going to be pedantic and suggest he was a wizard specialised in teleporting; someone found some prestige class that increased the number of passengers such that he could do it without being level 18.

Wayfarer Guide, IIRC

ETA: Yep. WF gets one additional creature per caster level.

[lio45]

Uhm, the formulation was "Any spell you cast with an ongoing duration will end when the splices expire." Any spell, not just those cast as a benefit of a splice.It's obviously implicit. "Any spell from the spliced souls that you cast will end when the splices expire; nothing prevents you from using your OWN (comparatively lame) spell slots to cast your own spell completely independently of the splices, and those spells of yours with an ongoing duration will last through their entire duration, regardless of the splices"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's obviously implicit. "Any spell from the spliced souls that you cast will end when the splices expire; nothing prevents you from using your OWN (comparatively lame) spell slots to cast your own spell completely independently of the splices, and those spells of yours with an ongoing duration will last through their entire duration, regardless of the splices"

It is NOT obviously implicit. It is, in fact, explicitly stated that it applies to any spells, not "any cast from their spell slots". Now, you are free to think they are lying by omission of the qualifiers, but if we open the door to "we can't trust the rules they set out", you might as well assume they are lying entirely about the spells duration being cut short.

Grey Wolf

[lio45]

It is NOT obviously implicit. It is, in fact, explicitly stated that it applies to any spells, not "any cast from their spell slots". Now, you are free to think they are lying by omission of the qualifiers, but if we open the door to "we can't trust the rules they set out", you might as well assume they are lying entirely about the spells duration being cut short.

Grey WolfWe'll have to agree to disagree on this, then. Because to me, it's so obvious that the IFCC didn't even need to specify it.

The default, logical way "a temporary graft of an Epic spellcaster's powers" would work is that anything you do with those powers that has an ongoing duration only lasts while the graft is active.

But the stuff you do totally on your own, has nothing to do with the splices.

If V decided to light a candle himself, while spliced, then that candle wouldn't have its flame extinguished when the splice ends; it was lit completely independently by V.

To me, that's just incredibly obvious. "Any spell you cast" is also the wording I'd have used, because why on Earth would V cast anything but the spliced souls' much-better-than-his-own spells while spliced? The point of accessing all that new power is to use it, V's own spells are irrelevant while spliced.

[dancrilis]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this, then. Because to me, it's so obvious that the IFCC didn't even need to specify it.

The default, logical way "a temporary graft of an Epic spellcaster's powers" would work is that anything you do with those powers that has an ongoing duration only lasts while the graft is active.

But the stuff you do totally on your own, has nothing to do with the splices.

If V decided to light a candle himself, while spliced, then that candle wouldn't have its flame extinguished when the splice ends; it was lit completely independently by V.

To me, that's just incredibly obvious. "Any spell you cast" is also the wording I'd have used, because why on Earth would V cast anything but the spliced souls' much-better-than-his-own spells while spliced? The point of accessing all that new power is to use it, V's own spells are irrelevant while spliced.

Given that panel 3 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) gets a specific mention of nitpicking I suspect that if there was an exemption for Vaarsuvius's own spells such would have been called out in panel 2 (could have been made a bit of a running gag but also if it was going to be relevent to the later scene it would be worth highlighting).

[Ruck]

I don't but the internet would be pretty boring if everyone agreed all the time about everything.

And like elsewhere on the internet, you're welcome to believe what you want, but that doesn't make it accurate, and sometimes people will tell you that.

If your case against a species requires you to invent a number of contrived hypotheticals in order to disqualify it under a metric in which it "doesn't feel right" to you-- not disqualified by anything we've seen in strip, mind you, just your feelings that if you stack enough conditionals on it it's a "mystery box" that "can be jury-rigged to be anything" and that wouldn't be satisfying-- then I think it's a poor case.

There are sayings about frog's wings and aunt's equipment to this effect.

[lio45]

There are sayings about frog's wings and aunt's equipment to this effect.I wanted to translate that into English and Google output something else which I used earlier in this thread. It involves Wish, interestingly. (And horses, and riding, and beggars.)

[Ruck]

I wanted to translate that into English and Google output something else which I used earlier in this thread. It involves Wish, interestingly. (And horses, and riding, and beggars.)

Ah, yes, similar idea. I believe there's another one about ifs and buts being candy and nuts.

[Jasdoif]

....the issue I have with it is that effectively 'whats in the mystery box?' having an answer of 'its a brand new mystery box!' isn't very satisfing as an answer to a mystery from my prespective (could however make a very fine joke).Wait, why are we talking about J.J. Abrams' career?

[dancrilis]

And like elsewhere on the internet, you're welcome to believe what you want, but that doesn't make it accurate, and sometimes people will tell you that.

You made mention of unsupported claims earlier - can you offer any support for your suggestion that anything I have stated is inaccurate?



If your case against a species requires you to invent a number of contrived hypotheticals in order to disqualify it
I didn't disqualify it - I actually qualified it and (I think) showed how it could work.


it it's a "mystery box"

Proteans are a mystery box by design, players don't know what powers one might have, and after going up against one it tells you very little of what the next one might have.

If the creature is revealed to be protean it tells us nothing about many of the scenes that it has appeared in, the Giant could fill in those questions in any number of ways (as I have above) - but he doesn't have to and might not (frankly I wouldn't expect him to unless it was part of a patron post or he has been looking forward to breaking down the clues for people).

[Kish]

I know is one thread too late, but I'm going to be pedantic and suggest he was a wizard specialised in teleporting; someone found some prestige class that increased the number of passengers such that he could do it without being level 18.

Got nothin' for Tsukiko, though, so this post is even more pedantic than my average.

GW
Even if he had Wayfarer Guide levels, that wouldn't change the really important part for this: no touching (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html), therefore no required touching.

[Peelee]

Even if he had Wayfarer Guide levels, that wouldn't change the really important part for this: no touching (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0366.html), therefore no required touching.

Eh, that seems more like a Stickworld houserule.

[phrxmd]

A note on Section 3c (copyrighted ideas): it lists the Heffalump (from Winnie the Pooh). The Heffalump first appeared in story 5 "in which Piglet meets a Heffalump" of the collection Winnie-the-Pooh by A. A. Milne, originally published in Britain in 1926.

In the UK, the copyright term is author's death plus 70 years, and A. A. Milne died in 1956, so Winnie-the-Pooh and the Heffalump will be out of copyright in the UK at the end of 2026. But the Giant is in the US, where the copyright term for works published abroad before 1978 is date of publication plus 95 years, so the Heffalump has been out of copyright in the US since the end of 2022.

[georgie_leech]

It'd take some guts to anticipate keeping a comic running for more than 20 years just for the sake of using an eventually out of copyright creature :smallamused:

[phrxmd]

It'd take some guts to anticipate keeping a comic running for more than 20 years just for the sake of using an eventually out of copyright creature :smallamused:

Well the Giant has been shown to play the long game before :)

[phrxmd]

In fact the Heffalump has been out of copyright in the US since the end of 2022 - the US copyright term for works published abroad before 1978 is 95 years after publication. Updated my post accordingly.

[Ruck]

You made mention of unsupported claims earlier - can you offer any support for your suggestion that anything I have stated is inaccurate?

"Accurate" and "supported" are not the same thing.

It is accurate to say, I suppose (not knowing the D&D rules well myself) that a Protean could theoretically take the Swallow Whole power from a Gibbering Orb and eat a sorcerer capable of casting 9th-level spells.

It is not supported anywhere in the strip that this ever happened with MitD, certainly not within the 24-hour time frame required for this to work.

It is also accurate to say that theoretically a homebrewed creature with any number of powers designated as Ex for the sole purpose of giving a Protean access to infinite powers exists in OOTS.

It is not supported anywhere that such a creature exists in OOTS, and it is not supported anywhere that Rich would do something like this, certainly not when he believes "it is possible to guess" what MitD is.

Notice also how to the extent your statements are accurate, they are only accurate about hypothetical possibilities under the D&D rules. They are not accurate about anything we have seen happen in the strip.


Proteans are a mystery box by design

No.


If the creature is revealed to be protean it tells us nothing about many of the scenes that it has appeared in

I don't know what this means.

I will reiterate, though, that nothing in the strip except the Escape scene requires the Protean to use a power that is not part of its base set.

(And if anything, that makes me think the Protean is also the best fit for the "reaching deep down and discovering powers he didn't know he had" comment.)

What I would really like is if the anti-Protean crowd would start pitching monsters they think are better fits. Because, again, the MitD cannot be nothing; it has to be something.

And again, if the best case you can offer is "I don't know what it is, but it can't be a Protean because I can imagine a hypothetical situation completely unsupported by the strip that gives a Protean infinite powers, and I think a creature with infinite powers feels like cheating," well, I don't think that's a sound argument.

[dancrilis]

"Accurate" and "supported" are not the same thing.

I know.
You said that I made unsupported claims - this is possible I may not have supported everything I wrote (I think I actually did but maybe I didn't source something either because I didn't think it needed to be or when it was queried I missed it.)
You also seemed to imply that I was inaccurate about items I had stated - that was what I was asking you to support.


It is accurate to say, I suppose (not knowing the D&D rules well myself) that a Protean could theoretically take the Swallow Whole power from a Gibbering Orb and eat a sorcerer capable of casting 9th-level spells.

It is not supported anywhere in the strip that this ever happened with MitD, certainly not within the 24-hour time frame required for this to work.

It is also accurate to say that theoretically a homebrewed creature with any number of powers designated as Ex for the sole purpose of giving a Protean access to infinite powers exists in OOTS.

It is not supported anywhere that such a creature exists in OOTS, and it is not supported anywhere that Rich would do something like this, certainly not when he believes "it is possible to guess" what MitD is.

Notice also how to the extent your statements are accurate, they are only accurate about hypothetical possibilities under the D&D rules. They are not accurate about anything we have seen happen in the strip.

I lot of the basis for my statements have been replying to specific questions about what a Protean can do - not about what the creature in shadows could do if it was a protean.

Precure asked questions about whether a Protean can cast wish and whether a Protean can have high-level sorcerer casting - these questions where what I answered - they later indicated that they asked these questions to see if they could square a circle as to if the creature is a Protean would it be able to cast wish as they do not like the teleport option for the escape scene.


No.

Then I think you might just be wrong about what a protean is - a gibbering orb is a horrific creature but if you know you are facing one you can prepare (ray deflection will go a long way), same for a devastation beetle, thorciasid etc and many other creatures - they are all in the epic level handbook.
Protean are different as they are designed to be different and customised by the DM.
One which has had limited access to other creatures might take a wolf's trip ability, a nixies wild empathy ability a sea cats rend ability (and have an unused Hold Breath from the same source) and a howlers howl ability (and be able to trade in its Quills ability as it needs).
This is not a particularly impressive set of abilities to have for a protean and your level 29 players will likely have a fairly easy time.
However a protean which has met more creatures might be using a living vaults magic immunity, a tayella poison ability, a worm that walks engulf ability and immunities ability (and a host of lets say 20 others it can trade around as needed).
That second protean is a much harder fight (still probably not entirely unreasonable for the level the players are at subject to their knowledge, build etc).

This is what I mean my proteans being a mystery box - even after something is revealed to be a protean you still don't know that that specific protean can do or how it can do it.

If you don't understand what I mean now about proteans being a mystery box then I think we might just have a different usage of the term mystery box (at least in this context).


I will reiterate, though, that nothing in the strip except the Escape scene requires the Protean to use a power that is not part of its base set.

That is highly debatable - a protean can with its slam (assuming no critical etc) do 2d6+21 damage, this can be boosted with power attack and boosted further if a critical is scored - that damage is not really enough to justify the earthquake scene (even with a critical and maximum damage doubt any DM would let a player doing that damage to get an earthquake out of it).
In fact it isn't enough to break an iron door in one punch via damage, and a protean only has a 70% chance to break an iron door trying against its break DC.

As such I don't like strength rules wise for the earthquake scene (it is however a fine handwave for 'very strong creature' but that was already done with the tower scene), I would like to have a creature that can use the spell earthquake for this scene - but similiar to giving a protean wish it is difficult to actually do without bringing in things like gibbering orbs for gaining spells, which if the Giant does fine but I don't particularly like it.
I have been thinking about this for a while and if the 'large father who eats a lot' was a reference to an adopted father in a gibbering orb I would be comfortable enough with the answer a lot more.

But I think this has largely been somewhat of a digression - if you don't see how a protean is a mystery box in concept then I am not sure there is anything to discuss about it.




What I would really like is if the anti-Protean crowd would start pitching monsters they think are better fits. Because, again, the MitD cannot be nothing; it has to be something.

I am not really in that crowd I think the protean does fit (I think I have covered how it can fit also - and with magic immunity I think I have covered the escape scene via teleportation better then the dimensional anchor does) - the fact that I don't like it as an answer doesn't mean it doesn't fit (even if some of its items might need some mental work to do).

As for something that covers the scenes better rule wise - possibly a Living Wall does (from Ravenloft Denivens of Darkness, if anyone cares to see what I mean), you would want it to be one of the ones that is said to potentially naturally occuring to avoid some of the issues narratively and you would want it to have not really absorbed many people other then the person it formed around who would in this case need to be some epic level caster.
It is however a horrible choice as it has all my issues with the protean brought up a fair few notches - namely any answer for why it does anything is 'epic level caster magic as a once a day spell like ability' this does pretty far ie, 'earthquake?, magic', 'escape?, magic', 'durability? magic', 'how does it move? magic' etc.

Narratively Living Wall is a terrible answer and where I would be fine with the Giant having a protean with unexplained powers a Living Wall I think might actually annoy me (would depend on the storytelling around if of course) a bit as it is effectively a complete cheat (if used in this manner above - they are a fine creature in general if they are not being abused).

[InvisibleBison]

This is what I mean my proteans being a mystery box - even after something is revealed to be a protean you still don't know that that specific protean can do or how it can do it.

This is not really correct. The idea that proteans can only assume the form/abilities of creatures they have encountered is not well-supported by the rules. The narrative summary implies that it is the case, but the actual rules text of the Alter Shape ability contains no such restriction. Thus, knowing that a creature is a protean only prevents you from knowing what it can do insomuch as you aren't familiar with all printed extraordinary abilities.

[Joerg]

I will reiterate, though, that nothing in the strip except the Escape scene requires the Protean to use a power that is not part of its base set.

Leaving no tracks in the snow? And I don't like to explain the earthquake by strength.

Note that this is just pedantry, please don't label me as anti-protean or demand that I find a better fit.

[Kish]

Leaving no tracks in the snow? And I don't like to explain the earthquake by strength.

Note that this is just pedantry, please don't label me as anti-protean or demand that I find a better fit.
The protean changes features randomly; if Rich, for any reason, didn't want to say "he copied Water Walk for that scene" he could easily say "he happened to have wings" or "he happened to be very light at the moment."

And "not liking" is not something anyone else needs to address. I don't like to explain the earthquake supernaturally, but I don't offer that to people looking for a supernatural explanation for it as if it's a reason they should stop.

[dancrilis]

This is not really correct. The idea that proteans can only assume the form/abilities of creatures they have encountered is not well-supported by the rules. The narrative summary implies that it is the case, but the actual rules text of the Alter Shape ability contains no such restriction. Thus, knowing that a creature is a protean only prevents you from knowing what it can do insomuch as you aren't familiar with all printed extraordinary abilities.

That is a fair criticism, I have a tendency to look at both narrative and rules and how they work together rather then seperating them out.

I don't think that it changes the discussion though, it the creature is a protean we the readers would still have the mystery on our hands (to the extent that we feel like solving it) of what actual powers were used to cover various scenes, and speaking on the protean more generally players would not know which sources the DM might have and use so the creature may still be a mystery in many cases after being told what it is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Leaving no tracks in the snow? And I don't like to explain the earthquake by strength.

Note that this is just pedantry, please don't label me as anti-protean or demand that I find a better fit.

I still think the trackless thing is a feature of the umbrella, enchanted to keep MitD hidden, rather than MitD itself. We know that TE already goes for the "and kitchen sink" approach to item crafting & enchanting, and that Xykon spends 8 hours a day doing so (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) in part to stave away boredom. MitD got an upgraded umbrella, so it's not that hard to believe the new one came with stealth options to address the tracks he used to leave behind.

GW

[Joerg]

The protean changes features randomly; if Rich, for any reason, didn't want to say "he copied Water Walk for that scene" he could easily say "he happened to have wings" or "he happened to be very light at the moment.
Just so I understand correctly: the protean can fly without copying an ex ability?



And "not liking" is not something anyone else needs to address. I don't like to explain the earthquake supernaturally, but I don't offer that to people looking for a supernatural explanation for it as if it's a reason they should stop.
Are you implying that I told people to stop explaining the earthquake by pure strength? I just mentioned my personal opinion, nothing more.

Really, the discussion climate in this thread is too aggressive for my taste. I think I'll go back to reading silently again.

[dancrilis]

Just so I understand correctly: the protean can fly without copying an ex ability?


Not as base, it has a speed of 50ft but without fly, climb, burrow, swim it means a land speed - and I don't think movement types normally are extraordinary but there are so many extraordinary abilities in various supplements and third party products that I would suspect you could get all of them if in some way if you wanted.

For instance a Gibbering Orb has flight as an ex ability so that could be copied.

[Kish]

Just so I understand correctly: the protean can fly without copying an ex ability?
Well I was, but actually looking at the SRD link, better: the protean has at-will Dimension Door and Ethereal Jaunt, as well as a random chance of having the mass of a flea at any given moment. "He didn't leave tracks here" is one thing that would never require the protean to adopt any specific trait from another creature.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I cannot prove that this was asked by Ox, but it certainly applies to some of his arguments:


8.) Do you like Denouements? I know that’s an abrupt question and obvious lead in to something else, but some people I’m arguing with are saying one of your longest running subplots isn’t having its ending foreshadowed and isn’t going to have a denouement after the climax.

I appreciate the fact that you did not actually ask me about the exact subplot in question, because obviously I wouldn’t answer that due to spoilers.

In general, yes, I think denouements are an important part of storytelling and I expect OOTS to have an extensive “wrap-up” of various plot threads after the resolution of the last actual conflict (at least those that are not resolved before or during the conflict itself). On the other hand, I know for a fact that a number of situations that I’ve seen readers deem as questions that need to be answered are definitely not going to be answered, because they’re not actually important and I’m fine with letting the details be filled in by the readers’ imaginations. So I guess the real question here is, is the subplot you’re concerned about necessarily one that I think is important enough to deserve a denouement?
(link (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-7-79846329))

As predicted by everyone except Ox, Rich does not believe that every single thread must be answered. In fact, I really doubt we will ever get a blow-by-blow of how MitD fits the scenes, and I am most certainly convinced that whatever MitD turns out to be, a number of citizens of the hellscape known as "The Internet" will be unsatisfied and be convinced it does not in fact fit the scenes.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

If "one of your longest running subplots isn’t having its ending foreshadowed and isn’t going to have a denouement after the climax" is in fact supposed to refer to anything that's been said here, I continue to be boggled by the idea that anyone said that.

[georgie_leech]

I think the disagreement is more on whether any denouement will involve revisiting past scenes to explain how the MitD achieved whatever feat, or whether we'll be left to revisit said scenes with the benefit of hindsight ourselves if we really wanna delve into the mechanics of it.

Given how willing The Giant has been to let us fill in the gaps ourselves, personally I'm leaning towards the latter. I can't see, say, any sort of direct acknowledgement of the time he knocked Miko through a wall, beyond something like "wow, he's strong!" I mean, we'll probably get some sort of exposition on what it is, but not in a "so if you go back to Strip number whatever, he did the thing because..." kind of way.

[Throknor]

I think it's much more likely that there would be details in the last book's commentary than in the actual comic. The only character that has had to guess about MITD is O-Chul and I don't expect more than a "I knew it" from him. There's little reason for anyone else to even care all that much about his species - they'll be much more concerned with however he turns against Xykon and the immediate aftermath of that.

If nothing else there is zero reason do discuss the tower scene in comic as there were no witnesses that would care to do so. The same with the circus and jungle scenes come to think of it. V isn't going to want to talk about their ill-advised attack. Haley and Belkar aren't going to spontaneously remember the earthquake to discuss it; heck they might not even realize it was him

Hell, the more I ramble about it the less I can see anything being discussed other than maybe O-Chul's acknowledging if he was right and more than a single panel would probably slow the scene down.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think it's much more likely that there would be details in the last book's commentary than in the actual comic. The only character that has had to guess about MITD is O-Chul and I don't expect more than a "I knew it" from him. There's little reason for anyone else to even care all that much about his species - they'll be much more concerned with however he turns against Xykon and the immediate aftermath of that.

If nothing else there is zero reason do discuss the tower scene in comic as there were no witnesses that would care to do so. The same with the circus and jungle scenes come to think of it. V isn't going to want to talk about their ill-advised attack. Haley and Belkar aren't going to spontaneously remember the earthquake to discuss it; heck they might not even realize it was him

Hell, the more I ramble about it the less I can see anything being discussed other than maybe O-Chul's acknowledging if he was right and more than a single panel would probably slow the scene down.

Precisely.

Also, it'd be bad writing, to be perfectly honest. MitD's reveal will be a major character development moment: MitD, as a character, will take his final step in his character arc. What powers his species has is completely irrelevant to that, and thus discussing it, or even bringing it up, would be doing it a disservice. There is also the reality that most readers could not care less about it. They already know that MitD can scare small children, punch horses through walls and teleport people. Whether the species (which I'm guessing most won't recognise, on the basis that most creatures that pop into the comic are not recognisable) can or cannot do the things MitD can do will be completely unknowable to the average reader. They'll assume Rich did his homework, because 99% of the time, he has, and just enjoy the reveal for what it is in the story, not because of the kind of pedantic minutia that is our bread and butter in the confines of this thread.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Also, it'd be bad writing, to be perfectly honest. MitD's reveal will be a major character development moment: MitD, as a character, will take his final step in his character arc. What powers his species has is completely irrelevant to that, and thus discussing it, or even bringing it up, would be doing it a disservice.I don't think that's necessarily true. The reveal could result from his powers as he uses them to help the good guys, e.g. producing another earthquake and accidentally dropping the umbrella amidst all the shaking; advancing both character and plot at the same time.

[Keltest]

I don't think that's necessarily true. The reveal could result from his powers as he uses them to help the good guys, e.g. producing another earthquake and accidentally dropping the umbrella amidst all the shaking; advancing both character and plot at the same time.

I don't think thats really what GW meant. Certainly stopping the action to get an exposition on what the MITD's species can do would bewildly disruptive for something that is, frankly, not the point.

Although if it does turn out to be a Protean, it might be necessary for that kind of exposition just because its powers are so inconsistent minute by minute that it would need explaining to the audience why he literally can't duplicate the Escape scene, for example. YMMV on whether that's a real con or not.

[Jasdoif]

Certainly stopping the action to get an exposition on what the MITD's species can do would bewildly disruptive for something that is, frankly, not the point.Conversely, getting an explanation on what MitD's species can do during the action would be highly synergistic...and having the reveal occur as part of that same action would be even less disruptive than the (apparently common) baseline of a break in the action for MitD to reveal himself.

There's a lot of ways this could go down, many of them unknown because we don't have the full context for the reveal yet, and it can be surprisingly easy to subconsciously make assumptions. The Giant's had a lot of time to workshop how he wants the pacing to go, after all, and I'm fairly sure most of us are here because we have faith in the Giant's ability to tell us his story in an interesting way.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Conversely, getting an explanation on what MitD's species can do during the action would be highly synergistic...and having the reveal occur as part of that same action would be even less disruptive than the (apparently common) baseline of a break in the action for MitD to reveal himself.

Ok, but we already have had an explanation of what MitD can do (I suppose, more accurately we have had an exposition): his appearance can scare small children, he's strong enough to punch horses through walls when hitting lightly, and teleport friend in extremis. I'm not sure any of those powers need to be justified, especially not this long after the fact. Just as we see that Roy is strong enough to hold a rope in one hand what took two regular people to barely do with both hands, or anytime V does magic, the comic is now well-established and the story just shows what nonsense each character can do by showing it, not by stopping to explain that Roy has 25 STR and what that means for his carrying capacity versus regular STR 10 NPCs.

Will MitD continue to use powers, maybe new, maybe same of the old ones mid and post-reveal? I would imagine so, yes, But that's not the same as getting an explanation of how those powers work or what they do. Rich barely bothers with that for the MCs, and I doubt he'll bother for a secondary character whose powerset is well established by now. MitD can punch really hard, because we have seen him punch really hard, not because his species sheet says so. And if the only explanation needed is "MitD can do this because we've already seen him do this", then there really is no need for anything other that more show, not tell.

GW

[b_jonas]

Roy's strength isn't really the best example because the comic partly explains it: he got a belt of giant strength as a gift from a desert dwelling human family in #687 2nd to 3rd because Roy saved their son from the buggers (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html). Belkar's combat efficiency with his thrown daggers against low-level monsters seems less explained to me.

Anyway, Rich won't need to explain anything about the MitD because once he reveals the answer it will turn out to be obviously a good candidate. The answer will be so accessible that we'll not understand how we hadn't found it during all the search. It will turn out that Rich has used a SEP field to hide the answer so that whenever anyone would considers that answer, they quickly ignore it for no clear reason. Either we never discussed the answer, or if we have discussed it it didn't get much attention in the thread because we didn't realize how good a fit it is.

[Ruck]

Anyway, Rich won't need to explain anything about the MitD because once he reveals the answer it will turn out to be obviously a good candidate. The answer will be so accessible that we'll not understand how we hadn't found it during all the search. It will turn out that Rich has used a SEP field to hide the answer so that whenever anyone would considers that answer, they quickly ignore it for no clear reason. Either we never discussed the answer, or if we have discussed it it didn't get much attention in the thread because we didn't realize how good a fit it is.

What makes you so sure we haven't?

[b_jonas]

Ruck: the candidates that we discuss the most often don't seem to click. I trust that Rich is a good writer, so whatever is the answer to his puzzle will be satisfying and seem clearly correct in hindsight, even if it's hard to find.

[hroþila]

Eh, that sounds a bit too faith-based to me. If it turns out it's a creature that was considered here at all, I'd say it's more likely that either:
a) It was acknowledged to be a decent fit overall (Some people will definitely quibble over any rules-bending)
or b) It was only considered in passing because it is a copyrighted creature.

The idea that a creature that was considered a poor fit after sickeningly in-depth analysis will magically and retroactively look like the perfect fit post-reveal sounds far-fetched to me, unless a lot of MitD scenes are recontextualized in the comic itself after the reveal.

[Ruck]

Ruck: the candidates that we discuss the most often don't seem to click.

Well, that's your opinion. I wouldn't be stating it as certain fact.

Personally, I'm increasingly confident we've figured it out. I think of everything we've found that one is by far the best fit.

I've always made allowances that there may be something better out there. But for even such a possible candidate to exist would require that somehow in the almost-15-year history of this thread and all the D&D knowledge and expertise I presume its many participants have brought to it, some significant source of highly powerful creatures was overlooked entirely. Doesn't seem very likely to me.

[b_jonas]

The idea that a creature that was considered a poor fit after sickeningly in-depth analysis will magically and retroactively look like the perfect fit post-reveal That is definitely not what I suggest. The creature wasn't considered a poor fit. More like, most people didn't analyze the creature to get a conclusion on how good a fit it is. If someone suggested it, we mostly ignored the proposal because it didn't seem interesting. It may be in the big lists of suggested creature, but those lists are long and most entries aren't notable, so we usually don't notice it. There may be one or a few readers who did realize how good a fit it is, but readers propose all sorts of crazy creatures here, so we don't notice how special their proposal is. Or every reader might just be too lazy to write a detailed proposal, so there's nothing notable in the threads that we could even pay attention to.

[Kish]

I would venture a guess that most people believe what the creature is has been proposed. The big clashes here are not over "we don't know, how can we not know!" but over, "He's clearly this, and what do you mean by calling it unlikely due to something as irrelevant as (size/being burned by light/having no means of working magic when Rich's emphasis is CLEARLY on his power as a melee brute/being physically weak when Rich's emphasis is CLEARLY on his arcane might), how dare?"

For the past couple threads, "the candidates we discuss the most often" are all the protean because a couple people decided to try to knock the protean off the table. A relative of the Streisand effect perhaps. But the protean is still neither better nor worse as a fit than it was before that happened, nor have any of the other candidates changed because of it.

[dancrilis]

Ruck: the candidates that we discuss the most often don't seem to click.
That isn't really a convincing arguement for or against anything, things clicking are likely to require the reveal to see how satisfing the click actually is.



I trust that Rich is a good writer
This I think is a better answer against the protean.

Lets work on a couple of assumptions:
1. The Giant is not including misleading elements (either on purpose or by accident).
2. In SOD Redcloak indicates he knows what it is.

Redcloak only discovered that psionics were in use in the world much later and as such any creature that uses psionics is not suitable.

One could argue around this of course (Redcloak knew what it was but not what it could do, he never looked into the epic level handbook to find out, Rich wasn't thinking about the creature when he mentioned psionics in the comic etc) - so I don't expect this to convince anyone, but for me it is a serious con against any psionic creature (including the Protean).


Either we never discussed the answer, or if we have discussed it it didn't get much attention in the thread because we didn't realize how good a fit it is.

I think the best option for this may be the Elder Titan (a child version would be my preference but that is not needed), it only has the following con against it:

Not surprising it can talk. Can't explain the circus.
Lets split these up:

Not surprising it can talk:
Elder Titans generally ignore everything (page 222 ELH) 'It is difficult to even get the attention of one of these beings', so while it is not surprising that it can talk it may be surprising that it does talk.

Can't explain the circus:
Elder Titans are explicitly morphic (page 222 ELH) 'each one has a unique, not necessarilly totally human, appearance' further in that entry (page 222 ELH) 'each has taken on many characteristics of the very environment in which it dwells allowing his body to alter over time'.
As such the idea that those in the circus were looking at something bizarre (perhaps particularly if the creature had added on elements of the circus), also the creature can alter self to look like what it wants or what is expected of it.

If we go through the list of criteria:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
- Many options - teleport without error is available, if we allow the creatures casting it would have either wish or miracle, if we allow its epic casting it could have a custom spell.
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
- Yes, strong and tough.
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
- Think I have covered this above.
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
- Don't believe it is.
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
- Yes.
6) Size/strength requirement
Colossal: 46 STR
- Nope - only 45 STR (however it retains its strenght when in smaller forms seemingly which would then work for the lower sizes).
- For the earthquake that could be casting earthquake or potentially the spell like ability soften earth and stone.
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
- Yes (high saves and spell resistance but not immune).


Whether that is a good case for an elder titan or not is up to you individually - but it is only one example I am not going to go through all the options of the list and do the same but I think it isn't unreasonable that there is a fine fit for the creature in the list we have just that nobody has bothered to decide to make a big issue out of things (this of course ignores templates etc which are also viable).

[halfeye]

The idea that a creature that was considered a poor fit after sickeningly in-depth analysis will magically and retroactively look like the perfect fit post-reveal sounds far-fetched to me, unless a lot of MitD scenes are recontextualized in the comic itself after the reveal.

Personally, I think it's going to be a creature of myth, legend or story, that's been dismissed in these threads because someone, somewhere, homebrewed some stats for it, and those stats don't fit. However, The Giant is going to be using the actual mythological description which is much more powerful than the homebrew.

[InvisibleBison]

Redcloak only discovered that psionics were in use in the world much later and as such any creature that uses psionics is not suitable.

I don't find this a particularly convincing argument, because there are two kinds of psionics. There's some creatures whose spell-like abilities are called psionics, and then there's the variant casting system. The former has been shown to be present in OOTS-world since #30 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html), whereas it's clearly the latter whose existance Redcloak was uncertain about. And since the protean's psionic abilities are of the first kind, I don't think Redcloak's uncertainty about the existence of the second kind is particularly relevant.



I think the best option for this may be the Elder Titan (a child version would be my preference but that is not needed)

I don't think the elder titan is a particularly good fit. For one thing, as a colossal creature it's much too large, both to fit under the umbrella and to fit on the circus stage. You seem to suggest that it could use alter self to get around this, but alter self (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) only lets you assume forms up to one size smaller than your normal form, and gargantuan is also much too large for MitD's observed size. The SRD website (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm) does give the elder titan a separate Change Shape ability that does let it assume forms of an appropriate size, but as far as I can tell that ability was made up by the creator of that website. It's not present in the ELH, nor is it added in the ELH errata or the 3.5 update pamphlet.

Also, if he's using any kind of shapechanging effect during the circus scene - which he would have to be, to fit on the stage - he wouldn't retain the elder titan's weird appearance which you use as an explanation for that scene.

Also, an elder titan would not need to gain 5 levels of cleric in order to be able to cast animate dead. Elder titans cast as either 29th level clerics or wizards, so gaining the ability to cast animate dead would at most require him to gain a level of wizard and at least require him to prepare new spells.

And on a closing note, I realize the "elder" in elder titan is referring to how they are an ancient race from the dawn of time and not that they are titans who happen to be very old, but the idea of a child elder titan seems pretty silly to me. Although the ELH does say that elder titans seek out one another for "companionship, weapons practice, or some other enjoyable activity" (emphasis mine), so perhaps new ones are born from time to time.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Personally, I think it's going to be a creature of myth, legend or story, that's been dismissed in these threads because someone, somewhere, homebrewed some stats for it, and those stats don't fit. However, The Giant is going to be using the actual mythological description which is much more powerful than the homebrew.

Generally speaking, I've seen mythological versions of creatures are less powerful than their stat-ified counterparts. Certainly not universal, of course, but a lot that has been discussed in this thread have followed that trend.

[dancrilis]

I don't find this a particularly convincing argument, because there are two kinds of psionics. There's some creatures whose spell-like abilities are called psionics, and then there's the variant casting system. The former has been shown to be present in OOTS-world since #30 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html), whereas it's clearly the latter whose existance Redcloak was uncertain about. And since the protean's psionic abilities are of the first kind, I don't think Redcloak's uncertainty about the existence of the second kind is particularly relevant.

A mind flayers psionics are of the (SP) variety rather then the (PS) variety (page 187 monster manual).




I don't think the elder titan is a particularly good fit. For one thing, as a colossal creature it's much too large, both to fit under the umbrella and to fit on the circus stage. You seem to suggest that it could use alter self to get around this, but alter self (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) only lets you assume forms up to one size smaller than your normal form, and gargantuan is also much too large for MitD's observed size. The SRD website (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm) does give the elder titan a separate Change Shape ability that does let it assume forms of an appropriate size, but as far as I can tell that ability was made up by the creator of that website. It's not present in the ELH, nor is it added in the ELH errata or the 3.5 update pamphlet.

Also, if he's using any kind of shapechanging effect during the circus scene - which he would have to be, to fit on the stage - he wouldn't retain the elder titan's weird appearance which you use as an explanation for that scene.

Also, an elder titan would not need to gain 5 levels of cleric in order to be able to cast animate dead. Elder titans cast as either 29th level clerics or wizards, so gaining the ability to cast animate dead would at most require him to gain a level of wizard and at least require him to prepare new spells.

And on a closing note, I realize the "elder" in elder titan is referring to how they are an ancient race from the dawn of time and not that they are titans who happen to be very old, but the idea of a child elder titan seems pretty silly to me. Although the ELH does say that elder titans seek out one another for "companionship, weapons practice, or some other enjoyable activity" (emphasis mine), so perhaps new ones are born from time to time.

This is all fair enough - I am not particularly trying to say 'I suggest this' more that I think there are a number of creatures that are mentioned in the opening posts which might fit very well but which have limited information about them included - the idea that it is one of them is not unreasonable (as b_jonas indicated).

[Kish]

I don't find this a particularly convincing argument, because there are two kinds of psionics. There's some creatures whose spell-like abilities are called psionics, and then there's the variant casting system. The former has been shown to be present in OOTS-world since #30 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html), whereas it's clearly the latter whose existance Redcloak was uncertain about. And since the protean's psionic abilities are of the first kind, I don't think Redcloak's uncertainty about the existence of the second kind is particularly relevant.
Indeed. I would say: Redcloak didn't know about psionics, therefore no creature which is only able to do things he explicitly expected the creature in the darkness to do because of psionics is suitable.

...and the only thing he's ever indicated expecting the creature in the darkness to do, is "kill." And I am quite sure there is no powerful-with-or-without-psionics creature that absolutely needs psionics to do that.

[lio45]

If nothing else there is zero reason do discuss the tower scene in comic as there were no witnesses that would care to do so. The same with the circus and jungle scenes come to think of it.Exactly, but of these three, only the Tower Scene might "need revisiting", depending on what MitD turns out to be; the other two scenes are pretty easily passed and it's a safe bet there won't be much (if any) controversy about them, whatever MitD turns out to be.

Personally, my bet is that none of these scenes will need any revisiting, because MitD will fit them all well (i.e. he'll have incredibly high STR).

[Throknor]

Exactly, but of these three, only the Tower Scene might "need revisiting", depending on what MitD turns out to be; the other two scenes are pretty easily passed and it's a safe bet there won't be much (if any) controversy about them, whatever MitD turns out to be.

Personally, my bet is that none of these scenes will need any revisiting, because MitD will fit them all well (i.e. he'll have incredibly high STR).

The only two in comic characters aware of the Tower Scene would have no reason to discuss it so it won't be revisited in comic is my point.

As to whether Rich might discuss it in the book all I can think is that without another book coming out he'll need to discuss something and the MITD is at least probably in the list. I feel that his comments about a denouement refers to the traditional definition of an in-story wrap up not tying up loose ends. He has often used his book commentaries to flesh out things that aren't explicit in-comic so I would personally find it more surprising if he said nothing.

Whether he will say enough about the MITD to satisfy everyone (or even anyone I suppose) is another metric altogether.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The only two in comic characters aware of the Tower Scene would have no reason to discuss it so it won't be revisited in comic is my point.


I'm confused. There are three characters aware of the Tower scene. One is a celestial horse, one is dead, and the last is MitD. Are y'all talking about the Escape scene instead?

GW

[OvisCaedo]

Well, Redcloak and Xykon might be aware of the Tower scene, actually. Or at least saw the paladin and the horse come flying out of the wall. But they also didn't think anything of it other than "see I knew MitD would let them escape if we told him not to". So, presumably it just made perfect sense with what they knew of the creature's strength or abilities, and yeah I don't think they will ever mention it.

edit: Though only Redcloak seemed to be looking through a spyglass, so Xykon might not know the specifics of how Miko left the tower. Honestly, Redcloak might not either, he might have just seen them riding off after. But he was specifically watching for their escape, so he definitely might have seen the horse fly.

[b_jonas]

Oh, about the tower scene. In #200 last to #201 second panel, when Miko smites Roy, Roy says “It didn't exactly tickle, honey.” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) But in #374 second to third panel, when Miko attacks the MitD, the MitD says it tickles. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) Do you think that's a coincidence, that they both mention tickling?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Oh, about the tower scene. In #200 last to #201 second panel, when Miko smites Roy, Roy says “It didn't exactly tickle, honey.” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) But in #374 second to third panel, when Miko attacks the MitD, the MitD says it tickles. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) Do you think that's a coincidence, that they both mention tickling?

Yes? It's a common way of describing a weak attack that didn't hurt.

GW

[Kish]

It's almost like they were written by the same author or something.

In all seriousness, I'm not sure where else that even could go. A link between Roy and the creature in the darkness? Miko's katana having a Merciful enchantment? (Count the reasons that last one's not going to be the case.)

[b_jonas]

I don't know really, I just found the wording curious. Roy says “that's odd” and it's not clear what about. He went to fighter college and knows a few things about sword attacks, so maybe he expects for some reason that the attack can tickle. But mostly it's not that, it's just that we expect the Giant to be very careful when he writes the MitD's scenes, so any word, even “tickles” could be a clue that he dropped deliberately.

[Kish]

Roy says it's odd that someone just yelled SMITE EVIL while stabbing him because he knows he's not evil.

I wish to formally absent myself from any We that parses Rich's words at the "saying a katana attack does or does not tickle" level.

[Satohika]

O'Chul's comment about the monster indicates that he's something incredible, something one hardly believes that he's one of them, and and stay with Xykon. Is Protean a creature that hard to believe to see with Xykon? It might be from upper planes, which explains why O'Chul thought that the monster wouldn't believe him.


Do you think that's a coincidence, that they both mention tickling?

Not unless you mean it as "writer's barely disguised fetish" sort of way, no. But I wouldn't expect Mr. Burlew to act like someone with that sort of preference.

[Kish]

O-Chul; O'Chul is his seldom-seen (but often referenced on the forum) Irish cousin.

Proteans are epic monsters, and all epic monsters are extremely rare. If the creature is a protean--

--or, indeed, almost any other proposed creature--

--O-Chul's comment points to him being unlikely to find anywhere, not specifically unlikely to find with Xykon. If he was a celestial creature, then I would expect--well, Redcloak to have responded to him at first meeting with hostility and probable fear, for one thing, and both Xykon and Redcloak to be much more eager to go to "he's acting against us!" as an explanation both for things that is the correct explanation for, and things it is not.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

O'Chul's comment about the monster indicates that he's something incredible, something one hardly believes that he's one of them, and and stay with Xykon. Is Protean a creature that hard to believe to see with Xykon? It might be from upper planes, which explains why O'Chul thought that Hinjo wouldn't believe him.

There are many ways in which that line could be taken. From the basic "he's too powerful to be beholden to anyone" to "it is such a weird concept I can't even believe it exists" to "it is a creature from a different setting" to anything else, really. O-Chuls' "MitD wouldn't believe me when I tell him what he is" is one of those too-vague-to-be-useful asides that will probably be easily recontextualised once we have the answer, and until then it is just too plastic to reasonably deduce from.

GW

[b_jonas]

Just want to note here that in Rich's 2023-03 Patreon answers post, (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-7-79846329) a supporter asks Rich about whether the MitD's story will have a denouement. Rich doesn't actually give an answer, because he wants to keep future plots secret, so this doesn't really help us.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just want to note here that in Rich's 2023-03 Patreon answers post, (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-7-79846329) a supporter asks Rich about whether the MitD's story will have a denouement. Rich doesn't actually give an answer, because he wants to keep future plots secret, so this doesn't really help us.

Yes, I said as much here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25729197&postcount=160).

GW

[Throknor]

I'm confused. There are three characters aware of the Tower scene. One is a celestial horse, one is dead, and the last is MitD. Are y'all talking about the Escape scene instead?

GW


Well, Redcloak and Xykon might be aware of the Tower scene, actually. Or at least saw the paladin and the horse come flying out of the wall. But they also didn't think anything of it other than "see I knew MitD would let them escape if we told him not to". So, presumably it just made perfect sense with what they knew of the creature's strength or abilities, and yeah I don't think they will ever mention it.

edit: Though only Redcloak seemed to be looking through a spyglass, so Xykon might not know the specifics of how Miko left the tower. Honestly, Redcloak might not either, he might have just seen them riding off after. But he was specifically watching for their escape, so he definitely might have seen the horse fly.

Exactly. Team Evil knows they got knocked through the wall and landed far enough away that Redcloak needed a spyglass to see where they landed. If they were ever going to have a reaction to the fact that the MITD could hit them that far through a wall it would have been right then but they clearly weren't at all surprised that he could do that. What I was trying to point out: no one will be discussing that scene in comic just because the MITD is revealed.

I think I was making a point about doubting there would be any on-screen loose-end-tying-up discussion about the "big scenes", specifically with an example of one of the scenes that it wouldn't even occur to anyone to discuss. (Other than a possible "I was right" from O-Chul, of course.)

[Crusher]

A note on Section 3c (copyrighted ideas): it lists the Heffalump (from Winnie the Pooh). The Heffalump first appeared in story 5 "in which Piglet meets a Heffalump" of the collection Winnie-the-Pooh by A. A. Milne, originally published in Britain in 1926.

In the UK, the copyright term is author's death plus 70 years, and A. A. Milne died in 1956, so Winnie-the-Pooh and the Heffalump will be out of copyright in the UK at the end of 2026. But the Giant is in the US, where the copyright term for works published abroad before 1978 is date of publication plus 95 years, so the Heffalump has been out of copyright in the US since the end of 2022.

As we learned from the 2023 introduction of "Winnie the Pooh: Blood and Honey" which I'm pretty sure Milne's estate would *not* have approved if they had the authority.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3E74j_xFtg


The idea that a creature that was considered a poor fit after sickeningly in-depth analysis will magically and retroactively look like the perfect fit post-reveal sounds far-fetched to me, unless a lot of MitD scenes are recontextualized in the comic itself after the reveal.

I do think your "option a)" is correct, but I *strongly* disagree with this point. We have seen at least one candidate (the Glabrezu and to a lesser degree the Slaad) languishing in the huge list of proposed candidates before one of the big "I propose X" posts came along championing them sufficiently well to get them onto the FBS list. Looking at monsters from different angles and in different contexts can *absolutely* make them retroactively look like a much better fit.

[Crusher]

Protean with sorcerer levels enough to cast Wish, if it's possible rule-wise. If it can't be a sorcerer, then no.

I know of no restrictions against Protean having class levels, so I'll put you down for a "Protean with sorcerer levels"


What about a Wingless Wonder?

Putting you down for a Wingless Wonder as your guess.

[hroþila]

I do think your "option a)" is correct, but I *strongly* disagree with this point. We have seen at least one candidate (the Glabrezu and to a lesser degree the Slaad) languishing in the huge list of proposed candidates before one of the big "I propose X" posts came along championing them sufficiently well to get them onto the FBS list. Looking at monsters from different angles and in different contexts can *absolutely* make them retroactively look like a much better fit.
I think your point is kinda undermined by the fact that the Glabrezu has already been on the list of forerunner candidates for 9 years (since MitD VIII), and the Slaad for at least 13 (it was listed as the top contender in MitD II).

[Kish]

I'm pretty sure the white/black slaad went straight to what was then called the forerunners category as soon as it was proposed, yes.

(Don't know about the glabrezu; I continue to hate the glabrezu for being too large and too weak.)

[dancrilis]

If he was a celestial creature, then I would expect--well, Redcloak to have responded to him at first meeting with hostility and probable fear

This is related to one of the reasons I am somewhat dubious about any creature from the epic level handbook - I would expect Redcloak to respond to it with a more caution to any of them.

Not a major issue but just something of an oddity in my view if the creature turns out to be an abomination or protean or the like.

[Kish]

Redcloak's immediate response to meeting the creature in the darkness was to question why he let himself be kept in a cage by a circus when he could effortlessly kill them all. Then he set out to convince the creature to go along with being rescued/stolen from the circus because he believed his overwhelming power would be useful to him.

[Crusher]

I think your point is kinda undermined by the fact that the Glabrezu has already been on the list of forerunner candidates for 9 years (since MitD VIII), and the Slaad for at least 13 (it was listed as the top contender in MitD II).

Glabrezu was on the overall list starting from MitD II (when it initially started), but not the top list (which existed at the time as the Forerunners. FBS came in V) until VIII, after this post https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=18188101&postcount=220 got people to vote it into the FBS list. So, yeah, that was a change from seeing in a different light.

Edit - Also, that post was shortly followed by a post by me in which I made perhaps my favorite comment ever on these threads. I still enjoy it, and will take the opportunity to re-post an excerpt in Spoilers so everyone else can ignore it.

It does back-handedly suggest the Glabrezus are perhaps the "B" team when it comes to cleverly manipulating and corrupting people.



Glabrezu: "And while I will grant your wish to become master of all things cold, you phrased your wish poorly and there will be an EVIL PRICE TO BE PAID!"

Wishing Person: "OH NO! WHAT HAVE I DONE?"

Balor: (nods approvingly)

Glabrezu: "You must eat Popsicles until you get a cold-headache to fuel your power! BWAHAHAHAHA!"

Wishing Person: "Um... yeah, ok."

Balor: (facepalm)

[Ruck]

Just want to note here that in Rich's 2023-03 Patreon answers post, (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-7-79846329) a supporter asks Rich about whether the MitD's story will have a denouement. Rich doesn't actually give an answer, because he wants to keep future plots secret, so this doesn't really help us.


Yes, I said as much here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25729197&postcount=160).

GW

Well, it's a little presumptuous to say the bolded, but also, there aren't a whole lot of "longest-running subplots," so having gotten that out of the way...

If the idea of "denouement" is "Rich writes new material explaining why MitD fits every scene that this thread deemed important," then no, I find it highly unlikely that's going to happen.

Because the MitD's species isn't a "subplot." The MitD's character journey to making his own decisions and ultimately to fighting for what's right is.

[b_jonas]

Well, it's a little presumptuous to say the bolded, but also, there aren't a whole lot of "longest-running subplots," so having gotten that out of the way... Admittedly it could also refer to Tarqin and the three evil empires on the Western Continent.

[Omomuro]

Hello, all! I've some updates to give about one entry (and a related creature) on the Proposed Ideas list mainly to clarify why it should be excluded, although it does have some interesting ideas about it. I refer to the demon lord Ilsidahur, misspelled "Ilsidaur" on the list (that's clarification no.1)

One of the statements concerning Ilsidahur is that "Specific stats linked are too recent for MitD (older versions may exist, but have not been presented)"; the fact of the matter is that between 1988 and 2006 there were no other versions of Ilsidahur if this writeup is to be believed (https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Ilsidahur), and the latter date is obviously too late for Rich to have used its stats.

This is how he looks in his debut appearance, Dungeon #10; you certainly don't see horned orangutans every day but I wouldn't reel in horror at this visage:

https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/images/4/4f/Ilsidahur01.jpg

This is his 1988 statblock:

https://i.imgur.com/2AEHaaW.png

https://i.imgur.com/vbELLuu.png

Out of everything in there, I think the teleportation and howl are of particular interest (with the 20ft darkness, polymorphing and permanent illusion as useful add-ons), but there is one trait amongst his subject people that may be worth noting, namely the simian Bar-Lgura (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/Bar-Lgura) (stats are accurate to the 2002 Book of Vile Darkness), which is cause fear as regards the circus scene - but I think that's a stretch too. The bar-lgura can also cast teleport without error, like their lord.

While the bar-lgura's puny CR 5 and STR 22 can't cut it, you can kind of see how some overlap between the bar-lgura and their lord Ilsidahur (who is stated to be unique) could stack up to meet MitD's traits, but this presupposes that Ilsidahur is a representative of the bar-lgura race and that they could somehow interbreed to make a demi-lordish demon, which is zooming way across the "fine line" of Rich's if we're going to assume this much.

In short, what I'm suggesting to amend to the Ilsidahur entry is:

Correct the spelling of his name
List teleportation, howl, darkness, polymorphing and maybe the illusion as positives
Clarify that no versions of him existed between 1988 and 2006 (Fiendish Codex I: Lords of the Abyss)
Maybe add that he does have a non-unique subject people, or have the Bar-lgura as a separate entry but rule it out on its miserable CR5/STR22.

[mashlagoo1982]

That isn't really a convincing arguement for or against anything, things clicking are likely to require the reveal to see how satisfing the click actually is.


This I think is a better answer against the protean.

Lets work on a couple of assumptions:
1. The Giant is not including misleading elements (either on purpose or by accident).
2. In SOD Redcloak indicates he knows what it is.

Redcloak only discovered that psionics were in use in the world much later and as such any creature that uses psionics is not suitable.

One could argue around this of course (Redcloak knew what it was but not what it could do, he never looked into the epic level handbook to find out, Rich wasn't thinking about the creature when he mentioned psionics in the comic etc) - so I don't expect this to convince anyone, but for me it is a serious con against any psionic creature (including the Protean).



I think the best option for this may be the Elder Titan (a child version would be my preference but that is not needed), it only has the following con against it:

Lets split these up:

Not surprising it can talk:
Elder Titans generally ignore everything (page 222 ELH) 'It is difficult to even get the attention of one of these beings', so while it is not surprising that it can talk it may be surprising that it does talk.

Can't explain the circus:
Elder Titans are explicitly morphic (page 222 ELH) 'each one has a unique, not necessarilly totally human, appearance' further in that entry (page 222 ELH) 'each has taken on many characteristics of the very environment in which it dwells allowing his body to alter over time'.
As such the idea that those in the circus were looking at something bizarre (perhaps particularly if the creature had added on elements of the circus), also the creature can alter self to look like what it wants or what is expected of it.

If we go through the list of criteria:
1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
- Many options - teleport without error is available, if we allow the creatures casting it would have either wish or miracle, if we allow its epic casting it could have a custom spell.
2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
- Yes, strong and tough.
3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
- Think I have covered this above.
4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 2c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
- Don't believe it is.
5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
- Yes.
6) Size/strength requirement
Colossal: 46 STR
- Nope - only 45 STR (however it retains its strenght when in smaller forms seemingly which would then work for the lower sizes).
- For the earthquake that could be casting earthquake or potentially the spell like ability soften earth and stone.
7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)
- Yes (high saves and spell resistance but not immune).


Whether that is a good case for an elder titan or not is up to you individually - but it is only one example I am not going to go through all the options of the list and do the same but I think it isn't unreasonable that there is a fine fit for the creature in the list we have just that nobody has bothered to decide to make a big issue out of things (this of course ignores templates etc which are also viable).

I was just looking at Elder Titan last week and wanted to revisit it as a possible candidate.

I understand that it was disqualified because it wouldn't be surprising it could speak.
But as others have stated, I noticed it can change its shape to any other giant or humanoid of small to huge sizes. I didn't know what the limitations of that ability were though.

Is this homebrew or legit RAW rules?

Does the titan retain its physical characteristics?

Are there any shapes it could change into that would not be expected to speak?

It would also give more meaning [though it would be unnecessary] to RC's claim of knowing what MitD is.
If MitD was in another shape, most people would probably not assume it to be something else.

[Kish]

My big objection to elder titan would be that elder titans are elder: described as eons older than titans.

If one considered it viable for Rich to say "if two elder titans had a baby, it would be a baby elder titan," then it would be a very good fit.

(This (https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/monsters/monsters/epic/epicNonAbominations.html) is the source I would suggest looking at for information on elder titans; the SRD is mostly limited to stats and dandwiki is an abomination.)

[InvisibleBison]

But as others have stated, I noticed it can change its shape to any other giant or humanoid of small to huge sizes. I didn't know what the limitations of that ability were though.

Is this homebrew or legit RAW rules?

It is homebrew, or perhaps an error by the people who made the d20srd website, if they thought the elder titan had the same shapechanging ability as a regular titan. The entry in the ELH doesn't have any such ability, and it's not added by the ELH errata or 3.5 update pamphlet.

[Keltest]

My big objection to elder titan would be that elder titans are elder: described as eons older than titans.

If one considered it viable for Rich to say "if two elder titans had a baby, it would be a baby elder titan," then it would be a very good fit.

(This (https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/monsters/monsters/epic/epicNonAbominations.html) is the source I would suggest looking at for information on elder titans; the SRD is mostly limited to stats and dandwiki is an abomination.)

There are plenty of works where you have races like elves and/or dwarves called "elder folk" or "elder races", so theres certainly precedent for a species as a whole being termed "elder" while individuals can be of any age.

[Kish]

...really? The SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm) says it does.

(Not that I think "Redcloak thinks the creature in the darkness is something other than what he is" is a useful line of thought, I don't. To what extent the gap between "the mysterious, horrible but beautiful, possibly nauseating It" and "a big guy" can be bridged, it's by "Each one has a unique, not necessarily totally human, appearance," not by "he's disguised as a fire giant!")

[dancrilis]

Redcloak's immediate response to meeting the creature in the darkness was to question why he let himself be kept in a cage by a circus when he could effortlessly kill them all. Then he set out to convince the creature to go along with being rescued/stolen from the circus because he believed his overwhelming power would be useful to him.

This is fair - Redcloak would likely have reacted differently if the creature had reacted differently, and he does have something of a blind spot when it comes to inviting powerful potentially uncontrollable entities to join him on his quest.


...really? The SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/titanElder.htm) says it does.


There are a number of sources the ELH merely has the creature having Alter Self as a spell like ability (as does the lore entry you provided earlier, as does this (http://dndsrd.net/epicNonAbominations.html#titan-elder) SRD), but as you have linked above there is at least one source which has it with Change Shape (Su).

The Giant could have in theory taken any potential elder titan he is using from any source above (or others).

I think a young elder titan works (kindof) but has the issue of potentially being to physically weak if it is very young (and thereby small) and potentially too big if it is old enough to be strong enough - and hiding itself with magic to make it smaller then it is might possible be somewhat unfair (if fairness is valued in the guessing game).

[b_jonas]

Here's my attempt for a summary of the Carillion (see original proposal (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25692389)) as a MitD candidate so you can put it into the first posts.

Carillion (clockwork construct musical instrument)
Pros: Can teleport others. In this video on the Wintergatan Youtube channel, trainer Malgosia shows artificer Martin the carillion that lives in the tower of the Utrecht dom. (https://youtu.be/6CQgzqYuo04) They talk in the office with the carillion's keyboard, 366 steps of stairs up the tower. Without explanation, Martin then appears on street level, then back up in the office. We hear the carillion play a song so we know there's no time skip.
Hammers strong enough to hit holes into stone walls. Walls in top level of Utrecht dom are full of holes. (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dom_tower_Utrecht_from_West_side.jpg) The carillion wanted to get lit up.
Can hit strong when trying to hit weak. Martin praises the dynamic range of the instrument, so MitD may think he can hit weak. However, that applies only when the trainer plays on the keyboard – if the carillion plays music on its own from the repinnable musical drum, it always hits hard. Xykon or Redcloak wasn't there for the tower scene so MitD must have played on his own.
Should be scary and powerful. Utrecht carillion has a two meter diameter spinning cylinder, called repinnable musical drum, with sharp metal spikes to grind victims to death. Steel cables next to it entangle victims. Matches threats in #103: “your broken corpses” and “I will bathe in your blood”.
Can start to think for itself, using musical drum rather than keyboard, just as O-Chul encouraged him.
Lives in old stone towers. Surprising to find one in a rainforest. MitD did his two most notable scenes in two old stone towers.
Very tough. Built mostly from wood and steel. Belkar's daggers and Miko's sword wouldn't be able to damage it.
Small one can fit in the box while still being quite strong. Other video on same channel shows a small carillion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsjG1aEdogw) that could fit in the box if rotated sideways. 16 times smaller than the Utrecht carillion but drum is only 2.5 times smaller, so our normal guideline of -8 Str per size category shouldn't apply. Smaller than usual just like Oona says.
Construct but can grow: the Utrecht carillion had an octave of bells added a hundred years after most of it was built.
Construct but can appear to sleep after exerting effort if weight powering it winds down completely.
Would be found in a circus. Lions are always circus staples: the SoD circus even has another one, a winged chimera. Unnatural clockwork automaton may provoke varied reactions in spectators, even without the MitD doing anything.
Existed hundreds of years before strip #100.

Cons: Teleport may be limited to 100 feet.
Immune to mind control.
Does not eat.
One that fits in a box might still be too weak for tower scene.
(Update:) Is good at pulling ropes.


-----

Not in the summary, but I wan to mention that the name of this construct is also spelled “carillon”, but I prefer “carillion” because that's the spelling that the Wintergatan video that I use as the most important evidence uses (https://youtu.be/6CQgzqYuo04?t=91).


To what extent the gap between "the mysterious, horrible but beautiful, possibly nauseating It" and "a big guy" can be bridged, it's by "Each one has a unique, not necessarily totally human, appearance," not by "he's disguised as a fire giant!" To be fair if the Elder Titan can really appear as any Giant then the Stickyverse has a much better choice available than fire giants. Tenrin's killer was a half-troll dragon, and Serini is a half-troll halfling. D&D rules say that half-dragons have the dragon type, half-celestials and half-fiends have the outsider type, and #1018 1st panel confirms that half-elementals in OotS have the elemental type (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html). It is thus likely that half-trolls work the same way: they have the giant type. Serini has a rather disturbing appearance (#1018 2nd panel) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1018.html), suitable for a circus, and so could some other half-trolls that an Elder Titan appeared as.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Here's my attempt for a summary of the Carillion as a MitD candidate so you can put it into the first posts.

Gonna be honest, that's not funny enough to be in 3d. There a nuggets of humour, sure, but it is otherwise too overall serious. It reads like an FBS entry, not like a lighthearted parody of it.

GW

[lio45]

There are plenty of works where you have races like elves and/or dwarves called "elder folk" or "elder races", so theres certainly precedent for a species as a whole being termed "elder" while individuals can be of any age.Yeah, but from the entry Kish linked to, it seems that in the case of those Titans, “elder” is an age category, not a species/race, unfortunately.

Otherwise, great fit.

“Baby Elder Titan” would even likely be my top choice — if such a thing existed.

[dancrilis]

Yeah, but from the entry Kish linked to, it seems that in the case of those Titans, “elder” is an age category, not a species/race, unfortunately.

Otherwise, great fit.

“Baby Elder Titan” would even likely be my top choice — if such a thing existed.

They are a different creature (as near as I can tell from rules and lore) - they have different creature subtypes, one is a chaotic outsider and the other is not, they also have different powers Titans have 'Call Lightning' for instance where Elder Titans do not (in fact most spell like abilities a Titan has an Elder Titan lacks).

[hamishspence]

Regular titans are referred to as "cousins" and "counterparts" to the elder titans - which are their "forefathers".

The implication is that the one may have descended in some way from the other - perhaps residing on Chaotic outer planes has altered the Titans as compared to their predecessors.

[Keltest]

Regular titans are referred to as "cousins" and "counterparts" to the elder titans - which are their "forefathers".

The implication is that the one may have descended in some way from the other - perhaps residing on Chaotic outer planes has altered the Titans as compared to their predecessors.

Which in no way precludes the two species being distinct and capable of reproduction.

[Omomuro]

Hello, all! I've some updates to give about one entry (and a related creature) on the Proposed Ideas list mainly to clarify why it should be excluded, although it does have some interesting ideas about it. I refer to the demon lord Ilsidahur, misspelled "Ilsidaur" on the list (that's clarification no.1)

[snip]

Bumping this here since it fell victim to end of page syndrome, hope that’s alright

[Kish]

It's an interesting possibility. Unfortunately I can't think of any real way to fit "the creature is a specific named demon lord" into what we know about him*, if he was the son of Ilsidahur he'd be something Rich made up, and--as you note--bar-lguras don't fit.

*Beyond that O-Chul would be right: He would certainly go "wait, what?" if told that he was the demon lord who created bar-lguras. I do also like the way it has powerful spellcasting but bypasses the "so why can't he animate dead?" issue: Ilsidahur can animate dead, but only apes, not goblinoids.

[lio45]

I like that a "regular" Elder Titan weighs ~400,000 pounds. MitD as a Baby Elder Titan would be somewhat lighter, but still heavy enough to easily cause an earthquake by just stomping the ground, and send Miko and Windstriker flying regardless of his STR score (which would still be a healthy 40+, but if you're THAT heavy, you'll imprint insanely high momentum to anything you hit (edited for clarity: in non-cartoon physics, you'll just destroy them, but under cartoon rules, you'll send them flying)).

Why is it not a FBS entry (yet) ?

[Ruck]

I like that a "regular" Elder Titan weighs ~400,000 pounds. MitD as a Baby Elder Titan would be somewhat lighter, but still heavy enough to easily cause an earthquake by just stomping the ground, and send Miko and Windstriker flying regardless of his STR score (which would still be a healthy 40+, but if you're THAT heavy, you'll imprint insanely high momentum to anything you hit (edited for clarity: in non-cartoon physics, you'll just destroy them, but under cartoon rules, you'll send them flying)).

Why is it not a FBS entry (yet) ?

Well...


I understand that it was disqualified because it wouldn't be surprising it could speak.


My big objection to elder titan would be that elder titans are elder: described as eons older than titans.


(Not that I think "Redcloak thinks the creature in the darkness is something other than what he is" is a useful line of thought, I don't. To what extent the gap between "the mysterious, horrible but beautiful, possibly nauseating It" and "a big guy" can be bridged, it's by "Each one has a unique, not necessarily totally human, appearance," not by "he's disguised as a fire giant!")

So there's a few reasons, right there: the SBGH scene, the circus scene, and for that matter whether "a baby elder titan" is a thing that could even be said to exist. I also personally don't know if the stats (including, I suppose, weight) still fit after scaling down. I think that might be too many to be considered an FBS monster? I don't really know.

[Omomuro]

It's an interesting possibility. Unfortunately I can't think of any real way to fit "the creature is a specific named demon lord" into what we know about him*, if he was the son of Ilsidahur he'd be something Rich made up, and--as you note--bar-lguras don't fit.

*Beyond that O-Chul would be right: He would certainly go "wait, what?" if told that he was the demon lord who created bar-lguras. I do also like the way it has powerful spellcasting but bypasses the "so why can't he animate dead?" issue: Ilsidahur can animate dead, but only apes, not goblinoids.

Thanks - I hadn't even thought of the animate dead issue! Hopefully Ilsidahur can get his entry beefed up a little bit with these details now.

[Hardcore]

ChatGPT make this text more light hearted!
"


Let's see if we can make this a bit more playful!

Meet Carillion - the clockwork wizard of musical wonder! This little guy can teleport others, like some sort of funky magician. And in a recent video on Wintergatan's Youtube channel, we see him jamming with artificer Martin up in the tower of the Utrecht dom. They're 366 steps up, but without any explanation, Martin suddenly appears on street level - talk about a magic trick!

Carillion is not just a musical genius, he's also pretty strong. Like, "hit holes into stone walls" strong. He's got a thing for lighting up the walls of the Utrecht dom, which is pretty rock 'n' roll if you ask me.

Don't let his size fool you - Carillion packs a punch! He may look small, but his hammers are mighty enough to take down even the toughest stone. Martin praises the dynamic range of this little guy, so don't go thinking you can take him on if you're feeling weak!

And if that's not enough to scare you, just wait till you hear about his repinnable musical drum. It's got sharp metal spikes and steel cables that entangle his victims - yikes! But don't worry, he's not all bad. Carillion has a heart and can even start thinking for himself, using his musical drum instead of his keyboard.

This clockwork cutie is tough as nails too - even Belkar's daggers and Miko's sword can't damage him. And he's been around for hundreds of years! They say he could even be found in a circus, alongside lions and other funky creatures.

But let's not forget the cons - Carillion's teleportation powers may be limited to 100 feet, and he doesn't eat. Plus, the smaller version of him might not be strong enough for the tower scene. Oh well, nobody's perfect!"

[Satohika]

Why would Redcloak and Xykon act more fearful and suspicious of something from upper planes rather than something evil and might betray them for selfish reasons? Redcloak take it with him because monster was easy to be handled and use, confirmed by his continuing service to the circus. They don't suspect him because they see him as too stupid, not because he's evil.

[Kish]

Why would Redcloak and Xykon act more fearful and suspicious of something from upper planes rather than something evil and might betray them for selfish reasons?

Because, Redcloak's "evil is not one big happy family" line to Jirix aside, "evil means on our side and good means the enemy" is very much the way he was acting at the time. It got him Xykon. (And probably Xykon's behavior caused his attitude to be critically different by the time Tsukiko came along.)

[mashlagoo1982]

Well...







So there's a few reasons, right there: the SBGH scene, the circus scene, and for that matter whether "a baby elder titan" is a thing that could even be said to exist. I also personally don't know if the stats (including, I suppose, weight) still fit after scaling down. I think that might be too many to be considered an FBS monster? I don't really know.

I think it may qualify, especially if it can be both a baby and shape changed into some other humanoid, like a troglodyte. There are probably better examples, but as a troglodyte it would also meet the following criteria.

Partial explain circus scene due to Stench causing sickness.
Common is a bonus language not an automatic language and their intelligence is low.

I don't know how rare troglodytes are in this setting. Probably not rare enough though.

Maybe some other humanoid would be a better fit?

This still has the wild card feel due to the shape change ability. So I wouldn't back it over other options.

[Kish]

A troglodyte wouldn't be "the mysterious, terrifying, hideous but beautiful It"--it would be "for some reason we've chosen to single out this one monstrous humanoid from our sideshow!" and Redcloak wouldn't be under the impression that one could effortlessly kill everyone in the circus, or even one person in the circus.

[Keltest]

A troglodyte wouldn't be "the mysterious, terrifying, hideous but beautiful It"--it would be "for some reason we've chosen to single out this one monstrous humanoid from our sideshow!" and Redcloak wouldn't be under the impression that one could effortlessly kill everyone in the circus, or even one person in the circus.

Eh, I think reading the circus scene that literally is only going to needlessly reduce our pool of candidates even further than we already have. If it has an explanation for being supernaturally charming or something, thats nice, but I don't think its a good hill to die on.

Besides, the circus also used a dwarf woman as a bearded woman. Its not like their standards are exactly high.

[mashlagoo1982]

A troglodyte wouldn't be "the mysterious, terrifying, hideous but beautiful It"--it would be "for some reason we've chosen to single out this one monstrous humanoid from our sideshow!" and Redcloak wouldn't be under the impression that one could effortlessly kill everyone in the circus, or even one person in the circus.

In a strange way it maybe does.

Shape change retains ability scores.

So it would be a troglodyte with 26 charisma (which is already strange) that still causes people to get sick.

How does a troglodyte with 26 charisma even look?

Maybe not so mysterious, but somehow both hideous but beautiful?

[lio45]

Eh, I think reading the circus scene that literally is only going to needlessly reduce our pool of candidates even further than we already have. If it has an explanation for being supernaturally charming or something, thats nice, but I don't think its a good hill to die on.

Besides, the circus also used a dwarf woman as a bearded woman. Its not like their standards are exactly high.Exactly. Honestly, 30 STR "passing" the Tower Scene is a bigger stretch than basically anything mildly weird but with some charisma "passing" the Circus Scene.

[dancrilis]

Why would Redcloak and Xykon act more fearful and suspicious of something from upper planes rather than something evil and might betray them for selfish reasons?

Because it may be easier to account for selfish motives then to account for unselfish motives.



This still has the wild card feel due to the shape change ability.

This was a major point (to memory) against the elder titan some years ago - if the creature doesn't look like itself then the circus is not in fact a clue (nor potentially is Redcloak's reaction).

That would mean that the Giant was including a misleading scene - he could have but my understanding is that is not the default assumption that this topic works on.

An Elder Titan could also in theory cast animate dead - and if we accept that Redcloak knows what it is (and its powers) then he would know that.

[Ruck]

Eh, I think reading the circus scene that literally is only going to needlessly reduce our pool of candidates even further than we already have.

Isn't that what you want, though?

Just a few days ago (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25727868&postcount=125) you were saying, your words, "I'm not sure what else there is to do in this thread besides picking at imperfect candidates to see how they don't work." Now you're saying you want to be more lenient to allow more candidates in?

Which is it? Do you think we should nitpick or do you think we should be lenient? They're diametrically opposed, so it can't be both.

[Keltest]

Isn't that what you want, though?

Just a few days ago (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25727868&postcount=125) you were saying, your words, "I'm not sure what else there is to do in this thread besides picking at imperfect candidates to see how they don't work." Now you're saying you want to be more lenient to allow more candidates in?

Which is it? Do you think we should nitpick or do you think we should be lenient? They're diametrically opposed, so it can't be both.

They are not, because as I just explained, the circus scene isn't a good measuring stick due to being so subjective. If there were a plethora of ways that hideous monsters could convince people they were also beautiful, I would be all for using the circus scene as a filter, but as it stands all we can really conclude is it's ugly and unusual looking.

[Ruck]

They are not, because as I just explained, the circus scene isn't a good measuring stick due to being so subjective. If there were a plethora of ways that hideous monsters could convince people they were also beautiful, I would be all for using the circus scene as a filter, but as it stands all we can really conclude is it's ugly and unusual looking.

Sounds like special pleading that you should be allowed to nitpick one particular monster-- that does happen to fit the scene really well-- but we should all give a lot more leeway to the ones that don't fit the scene as well.

I can't stop you from nitpicking or giving leeway to whatever you want; I just wonder if that kind of selective application is the best way to arrive at an accurate conclusion.

[Lumix19]

I must say I'm getting quite excited for the reveal. I know it's still a long way off but we're closer now then we've ever been.

Going to just throw out that I'm convinced it's something psionic.

Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but I think MitD's comment about the Astral Plane might be a hint towards hypercognition. That power can supposedly draw information from the Astral Plane in the process of making deductions so it might explain why MitD knows about it but isn't sure he's ever actually been there.

A bit of a reach, I know, but fun to think about.

[Omomuro]

With my case against Ilsidahur completed for now, I'd like to make another suggestion on the tier of the Aboleth Mage, the so-called exemplar of an "almost FBS suggestion", namely the Tsuburu No Oni, the highest CR (CR16) of the Oni monsters introduced to D&D in Oriental Adventures add-on (2001), following upon their debut in Book of the Shadowlands (1998).

Here is his writeup on Forgotten Realms (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/No_Oni,_Tsuburu|alpha|N|Outsider), which is accurate to the 2001 book.

-

1b: The Circus Scene

He, or rather his spawn, looks like this.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/l5r/images/0/0c/Tsuburu_no_Oni_%28spawn%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120118225803

That, to me, is pretty horrifying (he has legs though!), and on top of that he has a sustained Fear Aura like all other oni:


Oni are shrouded in a constant aura of terror and evil. Creatures within a 30-foot radius must succeed at a Will save (DC 17) or become shaken. Shaken creatures suffer a -2 morale penalty on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws.

I know that the description of the circus scene explicitly says that the audience is not reacting in fear, hence the "almost" in there.

-

1c: The Escape

He has teleport without error, with the following caveat:


(amongst other spell-like abilities) teleport without error (self plus 100 pounds of objects only - swallowed victims do nor count against this 100 pounds). These abilities are as the spells cast by a 15th-level mahotsukai (save DC 17 + spell level).

Hang on to that "swallowed victims" part!

-

1d: Tower Scene

First part as concerns barely feeling anything when Miko tries to attack him, he has Regeneration:


Oni take normal damage from jade or Kuni crystal weapons, and from honorable or blessed weapons of at least +3 enhancement.

Second part where he punts Miko and Windstriker through a wall is where he falls short, with just 28 STR. Close, but only as close as the Aboleth Mage!

-

1e: Alignment

Like all demon suggestions, he has the hindrance of being labelled "Always chaotic evil", but overall themes of the comic, etc.

-

1f: Other Stats

Str 28, Dex 8, Con 20, Int 11, Wis 7, Cha 10...so it only fits as far as his Int > Wis.

-

1g: Gates

No good explanations, and this is a fairly mutable point as well.

-

1h: Recognisability

Oni live in the Shadowlands and, based on the overall vibe of the sourcebook, are likely to only be well-known to inhabitants of the Southern Lands (what's a "Japan", though?), so the SBGHs would not be out of line in recognising him as a rare specimen and being rare in knowing who he is outside of the Southern Lands.

As concerns the part where shapeshifters might qualify for the circus scene and this, he has Alternate Form as do all oni:

Oni can assume any humanoid form of Small to Large size as a standard action. This ability is similar to the polymorph self spell but allows only humanoid forms. When using this ability, oni gain a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.


-

1i/j/k: Suspicion, Fine Line, Bucket

These are fairly minor/debateable points, and Rich Burlew did not invent the concept of oni in general or Tsuburu in specific.

-

1l: Size

See above, under "Alternate Form".

-

2a: Physical Characteristics

Age: Oni reproduce via budding from the Tsuburu no Oni Lord, and therefore can presume to experience some form of ageing.
Appearance: See above image; the Oni spawn are described as having legs despite the picture though. See also "Alternate Form"
Diet: Tsuburu no Oni is known for being a glutton, as are his spawn. He also has the Feed ability:



When a swallowed opponent dies in the oni's belly, the oni feeds on the life force as well as the flesh. For every 8 HD or levels the oni consumes, it gains 1 HD. Feeding destroys the victim's body and prevents any form of raising or resurrection that requires part of the corpse. A wish, miracle, or true resurrection spell can restore a devoured victim to life.


Gender: Tsuburu no Oni and his spawn all appear to be male.
Head: Tsuburu no Oni has one and has two eyes which are either red or yellow depending on the piece of art.
Limbs: Tsuburu no Oni has two arms and two legs.
Maturity: He does have advancement from Large through Gargantuan so has some kind of life cycle.
Odor: Nothing explicit, but he sure seems gross.
Size: See above concerning Maturity, and Alternate Form.
Sleep: Nothing explicit, but he isn't a construct.
Weight: Look at him! Also, Alternate Form.


-

2b: Physical Characteristics

Attack: 28STR but with advancement as he grows bigger.
Defences: Armor Class 27, Regeneration.
Earth Cracking: Nothing explicit beyond STR.
Knowledge: 11 INT and 7 WIS.
Escape: See above.
Psionics: Irrelevant!
Rain: Nothing specific.
Raise Undead: Nada.
Sight: Nothing specific, although apparently he's so fat his face fats squish his eyelids, eww.
Shout: Nothing specific, but he's got to have some lungs on him.
Swallow Whole: He's got that ability! It's his modus operandi!


-

I'm not going into 2c because this post is long enough, but there you have it, the case for (and against) Tsburu no Oni! :smallredface:

[Tzardok]

Teleport without error (Self only)!

[Omomuro]

Teleport without error (Self only)!

V's Quicked Dimensional Anchor + O-Chul and Vaarsuvius are clearly light objects? :smallwink:

But yeah, it's a litany of "almosts" here: Insufficient explanation for circus reactions, Would've had an explanation for the escape minus those two words, Almost strong enough in his original weight class.

[Keltest]

Sounds like special pleading that you should be allowed to nitpick one particular monster-- that does happen to fit the scene really well-- but we should all give a lot more leeway to the ones that don't fit the scene as well.

I can't stop you from nitpicking or giving leeway to whatever you want; I just wonder if that kind of selective application is the best way to arrive at an accurate conclusion.

Am I not allowed an opinion on the value of any given scene then? I just think the circus scene in particular isn't a good measuring stick, especially compared to the Escape scene or even the tower scene.

[Satohika]

Because, Redcloak's "evil is not one big happy family" line to Jirix aside, "evil means on our side and good means the enemy" is very much the way he was acting at the time. It got him Xykon. (And probably Xykon's behavior caused his attitude to be critically different by the time Tsukiko came along.)

But he allied with him because Xykon killed those paladins, his mortal enemies, not because he's evil. There is many evil adventuring parties who likely killed more goblins than the good aligned ones.

[Kish]

But he allied with him because Xykon killed those paladins, his mortal enemies, not because he's evil.
One of us needs to reread the dialogue in that scene. Unfortunately, I suspect each of us believes it's the other one.

[Crusher]

With my case against Ilsidahur completed for now, I'd like to make another suggestion on the tier of the Aboleth Mage, the so-called exemplar of an "almost FBS suggestion", namely the Tsuburu No Oni, the highest CR (CR16) of the Oni monsters introduced to D&D in Oriental Adventures add-on (2001), following upon their debut in Book of the Shadowlands (1998).

Here is his writeup on Forgotten Realms (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/block/No_Oni,_Tsuburu|alpha|N|Outsider), which is accurate to the 2001 book.

-

1b: The Circus Scene

He, or rather his spawn, looks like this.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/l5r/images/0/0c/Tsuburu_no_Oni_%28spawn%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120118225803

That, to me, is pretty horrifying (he has legs though!), and on top of that he has a sustained Fear Aura like all other oni:


Oni are shrouded in a constant aura of terror and evil. Creatures within a 30-foot radius must succeed at a Will save (DC 17) or become shaken. Shaken creatures suffer a -2 morale penalty on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, and saving throws.

I know that the description of the circus scene explicitly says that the audience is not reacting in fear, hence the "almost" in there.

-

1c: The Escape

He has teleport without error, with the following caveat:


(amongst other spell-like abilities) teleport without error (self plus 100 pounds of objects only - swallowed victims do nor count against this 100 pounds). These abilities are as the spells cast by a 15th-level mahotsukai (save DC 17 + spell level).

Hang on to that "swallowed victims" part!

-

1d: Tower Scene

First part as concerns barely feeling anything when Miko tries to attack him, he has Regeneration:


Oni take normal damage from jade or Kuni crystal weapons, and from honorable or blessed weapons of at least +3 enhancement.

Second part where he punts Miko and Windstriker through a wall is where he falls short, with just 28 STR. Close, but only as close as the Aboleth Mage!

-

1e: Alignment

Like all demon suggestions, he has the hindrance of being labelled "Always chaotic evil", but overall themes of the comic, etc.

-

1f: Other Stats

Str 28, Dex 8, Con 20, Int 11, Wis 7, Cha 10...so it only fits as far as his Int > Wis.

-

1g: Gates

No good explanations, and this is a fairly mutable point as well.

-

1h: Recognisability

Oni live in the Shadowlands and, based on the overall vibe of the sourcebook, are likely to only be well-known to inhabitants of the Southern Lands (what's a "Japan", though?), so the SBGHs would not be out of line in recognising him as a rare specimen and being rare in knowing who he is outside of the Southern Lands.

As concerns the part where shapeshifters might qualify for the circus scene and this, he has Alternate Form as do all oni:

Oni can assume any humanoid form of Small to Large size as a standard action. This ability is similar to the polymorph self spell but allows only humanoid forms. When using this ability, oni gain a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.


-

1i/j/k: Suspicion, Fine Line, Bucket

These are fairly minor/debateable points, and Rich Burlew did not invent the concept of oni in general or Tsuburu in specific.

-

1l: Size

See above, under "Alternate Form".

-

2a: Physical Characteristics

Age: Oni reproduce via budding from the Tsuburu no Oni Lord, and therefore can presume to experience some form of ageing.
Appearance: See above image; the Oni spawn are described as having legs despite the picture though. See also "Alternate Form"
Diet: Tsuburu no Oni is known for being a glutton, as are his spawn. He also has the Feed ability:



When a swallowed opponent dies in the oni's belly, the oni feeds on the life force as well as the flesh. For every 8 HD or levels the oni consumes, it gains 1 HD. Feeding destroys the victim's body and prevents any form of raising or resurrection that requires part of the corpse. A wish, miracle, or true resurrection spell can restore a devoured victim to life.


Gender: Tsuburu no Oni and his spawn all appear to be male.
Head: Tsuburu no Oni has one and has two eyes which are either red or yellow depending on the piece of art.
Limbs: Tsuburu no Oni has two arms and two legs.
Maturity: He does have advancement from Large through Gargantuan so has some kind of life cycle.
Odor: Nothing explicit, but he sure seems gross.
Size: See above concerning Maturity, and Alternate Form.
Sleep: Nothing explicit, but he isn't a construct.
Weight: Look at him! Also, Alternate Form.


-

2b: Physical Characteristics

Attack: 28STR but with advancement as he grows bigger.
Defences: Armor Class 27, Regeneration.
Earth Cracking: Nothing explicit beyond STR.
Knowledge: 11 INT and 7 WIS.
Escape: See above.
Psionics: Irrelevant!
Rain: Nothing specific.
Raise Undead: Nada.
Sight: Nothing specific, although apparently he's so fat his face fats squish his eyelids, eww.
Shout: Nothing specific, but he's got to have some lungs on him.
Swallow Whole: He's got that ability! It's his modus operandi!


-

I'm not going into 2c because this post is long enough, but there you have it, the case for (and against) Tsburu no Oni! :smallredface:

Sorry I didn't comment on the Ilsidahur. I think I actually proposed it as well a few years ago because it doesn't fit badly, though it being a unique demon lord rather than a type of demon is a real problem.

The Tsuburu No Oni is interesting and a monster I don't think I've seen properly laid out before, which is neat. It seems solid on the swallowing whole, its nice that it can reproduce (and has two yellow eyes) and if it looks reasonably similar to its spawn I'd say its a good fit for the Circus scene. The DR is nifty, I don't think I've seen that before and it'd certainly be adequate defensively.

On the downside, yeah, as folks have mentioned, that self+50 pounds limitation is a problem and has thwarted many other potential candidates. Also, unfortunately, as you say, its in the ballpark on STR, but falls just short of the bar rather than making it over. Finally, the fear aura is a problem, because it'd be constantly fearing all the goblins around him and that doesn't seem to be happening.

[Omomuro]

Sorry I didn't comment on the Ilsidahur. I think I actually proposed it as well a few years ago because it doesn't fit badly, though it being a unique demon lord rather than a type of demon is a real problem.

The Tsuburu No Oni is interesting and a monster I don't think I've seen properly laid out before, which is neat. It seems solid on the swallowing whole, its nice that it can reproduce (and has two yellow eyes) and if it looks reasonably similar to its spawn I'd say its a good fit for the Circus scene. The DR is nifty, I don't think I've seen that before and it'd certainly be adequate defensively.

On the downside, yeah, as folks have mentioned, that self+50 pounds limitation is a problem and has thwarted many other potential candidates. Also, unfortunately, as you say, its in the ballpark on STR, but falls just short of the bar rather than making it over. Finally, the fear aura is a problem, because it'd be constantly fearing all the goblins around him and that doesn't seem to be happening.

No worries at all, thanks for reading all that! Finding a "new" FBS candidate is always going to be an uphill struggle so I'm content with using what knowledge I have to expand the scope a little into the "almost"s. :smallsmile:

[Ruck]

Am I not allowed an opinion on the value of any given scene then? I just think the circus scene in particular isn't a good measuring stick, especially compared to the Escape scene or even the tower scene.

You're allowed your opinion on whatever you want, just like I'm allowed my opinion that you're applying double standards to various candidates.

(In terms of real analysis, I think the circus scene is obviously meant to be some clue as to MitD's identity because there isn't much reason for Rich to have written it the way he did otherwise. He could have focused entirely on how performing makes MitD uncomfortable rather than on the audience, but he didn't. He could have written a more uniform set of audience reactions, but he didn't.)

[Keltest]

You're allowed your opinion on whatever you want, just like I'm allowed my opinion that you're applying double standards to various candidates.

(In terms of real analysis, I think the circus scene is obviously meant to be some clue as to MitD's identity because there isn't much reason for Rich to have written it the way he did otherwise. He could have focused entirely on how performing makes MitD uncomfortable rather than on the audience, but he didn't. He could have written a more uniform set of audience reactions, but he didn't.)

I agree its almost certainly a clue, I just don't think its one we can meaningfully apply except in hindsight. "Ugly" and "Somehow Beautiful" are wildly subjective things even when they arent one off statements by fictional characters that we never hear from before or after. I tend to agree with Grey Wolf's use of it to dismiss "iconic" type creatures that would be reasonable assumed to be in the general consciousness, like dragons, much more than I agree with any use to identify if a creatues is "ugly yet beautiful" enough to qualify.

Its just not something we can quantify enough to use as a measuring stick IMO.

[InvisibleBison]

I agree its almost certainly a clue, I just don't think its one we can meaningfully apply except in hindsight. "Ugly" and "Somehow Beautiful" are wildly subjective things even when they arent one off statements by fictional characters that we never hear from before or after.

I think you're missing the applicability of the scene by focusing a bit too much on the details. What I think is important about the circus scene is that MitD is capable of causing very different, very intense reactions in people simply by standing in front of them. The details of what specifically might cause those reactions are subjective, but a candidate having or lacking a clear reason why it would cause radically different reactions in observers is not.

[Ruck]

I agree its almost certainly a clue, I just don't think its one we can meaningfully apply except in hindsight. "Ugly" and "Somehow Beautiful" are wildly subjective things even when they arent one off statements by fictional characters that we never hear from before or after. I tend to agree with Grey Wolf's use of it to dismiss "iconic" type creatures that would be reasonable assumed to be in the general consciousness, like dragons, much more than I agree with any use to identify if a creatues is "ugly yet beautiful" enough to qualify.

Its just not something we can quantify enough to use as a measuring stick IMO.


I think you're missing the applicability of the scene by focusing a bit too much on the details. What I think is important about the circus scene is that MitD is capable of causing very different, very intense reactions in people simply by standing in front of them. The details of what specifically might cause those reactions are subjective, but a candidate having or lacking a clear reason why it would cause radically different reactions in observers is not.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, a big factor in my conclusions is that the Protean runs circles around every other candidate when it comes to fitting the circus scene:


"capable of causing very different, very intense reactions in people simply by standing in front of them" - as an ever-boiling/mutating blob of flesh, this is pretty easily explained.
"It's horrlble!" "And yet... beautiful!" Well, a lot of monsters could be horrible, but not as many have 34 Charisma.
nausea-inducing and stomach-churning - again, "ever-boiling/mutating blob of flesh" would seem more likely to produce this reaction than any other possible monster.
"I've never seen anything like it!" from what appears to be a wizard-- a lot of the other FBS monsters at least bear some resemblance to something recognizable, whether demon or serpent or what have you. I don't think anything but the Protean can be said not to look like anything but itself.
"Woooooo!" "YEAH!" - something about the MitD just standing there must be entertaining for the goblin kids as well as different enough each time that they don't get tired of going to the circus. An unpredictably constantly-mutating creature would fit the bill quite well.

[Keltest]

Addressing one point in particular, charisma is force of personality, not physical beauty. A charismatic creature is one that you pay attention to, not one that you are attracted to. The two can overlap, but one does not guarantee the other, in either direction.

[georgie_leech]

Addressing one point in particular, charisma is force of personality, not physical beauty. A charismatic creature is one that you pay attention to, not one that you are attracted to. The two can overlap, but one does not guarantee the other, in either direction.

https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/resource/images/epic/44165_C5_atropal.jpg