Convince me to play a Wizard (HotDQ + tRoT) [Archive]

animorte

2023-03-04, 02:24 PM

Alright, so I don't think I need to be convinced to play a Wizard anymore. I think now, I just need a bit of help putting it together.

Like I said, I don't believe I require convincing at this point in time. I've never cared very much about playing an Intelligence-based PC, but then I started looking at the Artificer and realizing the similarities between Infusions and Invocations (from my favorite class, Warlock).

I've played several Rogues, but playing Artificer was my gateway to the Wizard, I'll admit. This is a separate conversation entirely, but I've always preferred Sorcerer and then Artificer just has some really good subclass options so I still wondered if it was even worth it to play the Wizard, which I've never much cared for. That being said, I can generally have fun with just about anything I play. That's really what it's all about. Anyway, let's get to it!

So, Hoard of the Dragon Queen and The Rise of Tiamat have been sitting on somebody's shelf for years now and they finally decided to break it open and apparently that will be something we're running soon (and I don't have to DM! :smallsmile:).

We're going for classic standard class layout apparently, not originally planned, but it's what we arrived at (after the Barbarian changed to Fighter and I changed to Wizard instead of another Warlock)! I don't know for certain everybody's subclass thoughts just yet, but this is what has been discussed:

Fighter (Samurai, Rune Knight, Eldritch Knight?)
Cleric (Forge, Order, Life?)
Rogue (Soul Knife, Scout)
Wizard (War...)

I'm not sure what anybody else is choosing for race, but we have all discussed the amusement of going for Dragonborn or Kobold.

I debated Bladesinging, because the Intelligece to AC and Concentration is sweet (while it's active) and I absolutely love Song of Defense. I know that I'm first-and-foremost a full-caster, not a melee prodigy.

I also debated Chronurgy, because you know, apparently is OP.

Ultimately Arcane Deflection (especially for the save) was more valuable to me as a low-level feature. It's unlimited and I don't mind the cantrip restriction. I mean, I love Warlocks for crying out loud. I do realize that Power Surge is mediocre, especially considering I don't know how much casting will be in this dragon hunt.

Now, for my thoughts on the actual build:
I'm deeply considering Shadar-Kai. Perception, BA teleport, and gain 2 (tool) proficiencies after a long rest (+ other).
Definitely going with Investigation, but don't know if I should take Arcana or History as my second skill.
Not sure which background I want at all, maybe Sage because it solves the previous bullet.
Level 4 feat, debating between Observant or Resilient (CON), depending on my stats (maybe the other at 8?).
Will be using point-buy so...
8, 14, 14, 17, 12, 10 -or- 8, 14, 15, 16, 12, 10 -or- something else?
I am planning to remain single-class, as is everyone I think.
Edit: Telekinetic might be my #1.

Mage Hand is my favorite cantrip so that's definitely happening (I also considered Gith just for this). Is it worth going Fire Bolt in a dragon focused campaign? I love Alarm so that ritual is going to be a staple. Any other spells I should focus on above others, obvious or not.

I am open to other suggestions, as is the rest of my group. Since I've already pretty much decided, what subclasses should they roll with? I'm hoping the Fighter doesn't go Eldritch Knight, because that's the only Fighter subclass anybody wants to play, it's getting old. The Cleric does plan to be a reliable healer/support, but likely wants to venture away from the classic Life. The Rogue is focused a bit more on combat.

Adding in here, I am interested to know what ideas people would have as the backstory for my Wizard and how that might interact with the world. Still in the early stages of developing my PC. Sometimes I start with their story, sometimes I don't. This one happens to be the latter.

Emongnome777

2023-03-04, 02:50 PM

animorte

2023-03-04, 02:58 PM

Oh, forgot all about Telekinetic, thanks! As much as I like Mage Hand, I've never actually made room for the feat.

Frogreaver

2023-03-04, 03:09 PM

Alright, so I don't think I need to be convinced to play a Wizard anymore. I think now, I just need a bit of help putting it together.

Like I said, I don't believe I require convincing at this point in time. I've never cared very much about playing an Intelligence-based PC, but then I started looking at the Artificer and realizing the similarities between Infusions and Invocations (from my favorite class, Warlock).

I've played several Rogues, but playing Artificer was my gateway to the Wizard, I'll admit. This is a separate conversation entirely, but I've always preferred Sorcerer and then Artificer just has some really good subclass options so I still wondered if it was even worth it to play the Wizard, which I've never much cared for. That being said, I can generally have fun with just about anything I play. That's really what it's all about. Anyway, let's get to it!

So, Hoard of the Dragon Queen and The Rise of Tiamat have been sitting on somebody's shelf for years now and they finally decided to break it open and apparently that will be something we're running soon (and I don't have to DM! :smallsmile:).

We're going for classic standard class layout apparently, not originally planned, but it's what we arrived at (after the Barbarian changed to Fighter and I changed to Wizard instead of another Warlock)! I don't know for certain everybody's subclass thoughts just yet, but this is what has been discussed:

Fighter (Samurai, Rune Knight, Eldritch Knight?)
Cleric (Forge, Order, Life?)
Rogue (Soul Knife, Scout)
Wizard (War...)

I'm not sure what anybody else is choosing for race, but we have all discussed the amusement of going for Dragonborn or Kobold.

I debated Bladesinging, because the Intelligece to AC and Concentration is sweet (while it's active) and I absolutely love Song of Defense. I know that I'm first-and-foremost a full-caster, not a melee prodigy.

I also debated Chronurgy, because you know, apparently is OP.

Ultimately Arcane Deflection (especially for the save) was more valuable to me as a low-level feature. It's unlimited and I don't mind the cantrip restriction. I mean, I love Warlocks for crying out loud. I do realize that Power Surge is mediocre, especially considering I don't know how much casting will be in this dragon hunt.

Now, for my thoughts on the actual build:
I'm deeply considering Shadar-Kai. Perception, BA teleport, and gain 2 (tool) proficiencies after a long rest (+ other).
Definitely going with Investigation, but don't know if I should take Arcana or History as my second skill.
Not sure which background I want at all, maybe Sage because it solves the previous bullet.
Level 4 feat, debating between Observant or Resilient (CON), depending on my stats (maybe the other at 8?).
Will be using point-buy so...
8, 14, 14, 17, 12, 10 -or- 8, 14, 15, 16, 12, 10 -or- something else?
I am planning to remain single-class, as is everyone I think.

Mage Hand is my favorite cantrip so that's definitely happening (I also considered Gith just for this). Is it worth going Fire Bolt in a dragon focused campaign? I love Alarm so that ritual is going to be a staple. Any other spells I should focus on above others, obvious or not.

I am open to other suggestions, as is the rest of my group. Since I've already pretty much decided, what subclasses should they roll with? I'm hoping the Fighter doesn't go Eldritch Knight, because that's the only Fighter subclass anybody wants to play, it's getting old. The Cleric does plan to be a reliable healer/support, but likely wants to venture away from the classic Life. The Rogue is focused a bit more on combat.

Consider Fey-Touched as an early feat - gaining a few more spells you can essentially always cast feels really good. (You can get gift of alcarity with the feat - which is really strong on a war wizard).
Observant can be very hit and miss depending on how much the DM or module uses passive investigation or perception.
Telekensis is good too.
Resilient Con is worth keeping in mind - but probably isn't necessary.
I always like the idea of Alert on a war mage - having a 10+ initiative bonus will feel great when you start throwing out encounter ending CC spells at level 3+.

Nice thing with war mage is your reaction for AC or saves can help keep you from needing to use shield spells as often - freeing up your level 1 slots for more uses silvery barbs later. Probably the level 1 spell outside of shield providing the most efficiency.

I feel web is essential for level 2 spells.
Outside that it's really whatever you want to go toward. Choosing your spells known and which to prepare will be the hardest part.

solidork

2023-03-04, 03:19 PM

My first thought with any character I'm playing lately is: how can I deeply intertwine them with what's going on in the campaign? Saving the world because you're a hero and it's the right thing to do is well and good, but I really want something that's got more meat to it than that. Playing a Wizard in these adventures has a really good way to do that.

(Someone really strict about spoilers might take umbrage with the below comment, but it's in the product description so it's not exactly a reveal.)

I would absolutely play a reformed/exiled Thayan Wizard. It would be fun to play in the space where I have to prove myself trustworthy, and you've got an S++ tier hook into the adventure. The sheer dramatic potential of having that kind of personal connection to one of the enemy factions is off the charts; how many of them do you know personally? Do they try to convince you to join them? If I was running these adventures for a character like that I would be over the moon, I'm excited just thinking about it.

animorte

2023-03-04, 04:10 PM

Telekinesis (Int) beefs up your mage hand and gives you a useful bonus action, which a single-classed wizard frequently leaves unused unless your race has BAs like goblin.
Shadar-Kai has bonus action teleport, which would just be nice for more BA options. Telekinetic is looking good.

Observant can be very hit and miss depending on how much the DM or module uses passive investigation or perception.
Does anybody know if Observant will be especially useful with this particular campaign?

Nice thing with war mage is your reaction for AC or saves can help keep you from needing to use shield spells as often - freeing up your level 1 slots for more uses silvery barbs later. Probably the level 1 spell outside of shield providing the most efficiency.
Yeah, I was debating whether or not I needed Res: Con. If I do get it, I'll save it for tier 2-3. Durable Magic at level 10 should be solid though. I briefly considered going with a full initiative boost build. War + Alert + Harengon + Gift of Alacrity, all that fun stuff! :smalltongue:

I was thinking the same thing about Shield. Yeah, I'm definitely going for battlefield control (Web, etc.), which Telekinetic should help with. I'm used to playing Sorcerer and Warlock so the amount of spells (known or prepared) shouldn't be a concern.

My first thought with any character I'm playing lately is: how can I deeply intertwine them with what's going on in the campaign? Saving the world because you're a hero and it's the right thing to do is well and good, but I really want something that's got more meat to it than that. Playing a Wizard in these adventures has a really good way to do that.
That's really cool. I appreciate the approach about the setting as well, thanks!

Going to update the OP to include Telekinetic as a primary choice.

Gignere

2023-03-04, 07:31 PM

Im playing a Shadar Kai don’t underestimate the bonus action teleport giving you resistance for a turn. As a war wizard it might not come up as much but I’m a Bladesinger and I’ve used it to tank a round of damage and it was glorious. Teleporting in front of a horde of mob and just eating up the hits like a barbarian.

animorte

2023-03-04, 08:48 PM

Eldariel

2023-03-05, 01:57 AM

Chill Touch is my go-to if I pick just one damage cantrip: Necrotic is rarely resisted, the rider deals with random annoyances like regeneration, it's an attack roll so it works through magic resistance and legendary resistance, etc. Though I rarely pick a damage spell on 1-3: I tend to take it as my level 4 cantrip. That's because on levels 1-4, the classic Dexterity cantrip of "Light Crossbow" is just better. And if you go Shadar-kai, you even get to use Heavy Crossbow for 1d10+Dex damage (or Longbow if you'd prefer the range over the damage). These hold up on Tier 2 but there you generally do want a damage cantrip.

I love utility cantrips. Minor Illusion & Mold Earth are the two best ones IME though Shape Water, Control Flames, Prestidigitation, etc. are also great. This is what I tend to use my starting cantrips on since the utility is the most irreplaceable on low levels.

For skills:
- I would make sure to get Stealth. As an Elf it only makes sense and your unarmored nature makes it a rather natural pick. Plus you'd rather remain unnoticed if you can help it. And stuff like Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, Shape Water, etc. only have Somatics, so you don't give away your position by using those as long as nobody sees you.
- Arcana is a must, Investigation is practically a must. History, Nature & Religion are all great. Perception is kinda whatever since you'll never have Perception competitive with your familiar (Owl has +3 at Advantage for 18 passive perception and 120' Darkvision, Hawk has 19 but no Darkvision, while Bat has 60' Blindsight instead) but it's never bad.

Feats:
- Alert is my go-to on Wizards. Getting to go first means you get to cast your Sleep/Web/Hypnotic Pattern/etc. before your enemy gets to do painful stuff. It combines great with other sources of Initiative bonus to near guarantee going first. Further, it also means that if you are inside Fog Cloud, Pyrotechnics, or similar, you're attacked at disadvantage. And finally immunity to surprise means if your party is about to get wrecked by a surprise attack, you have the ability to CC the most important enemies before they get to act (going back to part 1, you'll generally go first)

- Lucky is one I especially love on Wizards. It helps you with criticals and the like when your reaction is already spent on Shield (or Arcane Deflection too in your case), gives you a cushion for your Concentration and dangerous enemy save-or-loses like Intellect Devourers, Banshees, etc. while most importantly tipping the odds of Counterspell and Dispel-checks in your favour (those spells are great, but failing the check is huge: having the extra roll on something that's hard to buff otherwise is great). And later it does give you cushion with the Contact Other Plane saves too.

Race:
This is why I greatly prefer feat races (Vuman and CLineage) on low level Wizards. Alert and Lucky are both immensely useful and getting them early is sweet. If I went a +2/+1 race, I'd try to get 16 Dex and 16 Int. 17 Int is fine if you plan on using Telekinetic or Fey-touched, which are of course fine feats both, but I like the point buy freedom from 16 Int. Still, delaying Lucky and Alert until level 12 hurts (especially since it's hard to fit in Int boosts in there too).

Shadar-kai is fine though. Solid, even. So if you intend to go that route, that's just fine: in that case, you'll have to skip one of the feats at least for the foreseeable future and perhaps go with a half-feat to round out your Intelligence. Res: Con is something I generally look to take in Tier 2 unless I'm going melee (in which case it's something of a priority, but I don't think that's the case here so you can skip it a bit further down and Lucky can largely fill the job while giving auxiliary benefits).

Sigreid

2023-03-05, 02:01 AM

- Arcana is a must, Investigation is practically a must. History, Nature & Religion are all great. Perception is kinda whatever since you'll never have Perception competitive with your familiar (Owl has +3 at Advantage for 18 passive perception and 120' Darkvision, Hawk has 19 but no Darkvision, while Bat has 60' Blindsight instea) but it's never bad.

Just as handy for getting that fireball off to clear the floor a bit before your enthusiastic team mates rush into melee.

animorte

2023-03-05, 03:41 AM

Chill Touch is my go-to if I pick just one damage cantrip: Necrotic is rarely resisted, the rider deals with random annoyances like regeneration, it's an attack roll so it works through magic resistance and legendary resistance, etc.
That's what I was thinking as well, thanks!

I love utility cantrips. Minor Illusion & Mold Earth are the two best ones IME though Shape Water, Control Flames, Prestidigitation, etc. are also great. This is what I tend to use my starting cantrips on since the utility is the most irreplaceable on low levels.
I also highly value utility spells! I've found that their usefulness depends on your creativity, to a degree. Of course, keeping the components in mind certainly helps decision making.

Alert is my go-to on Wizards.
Never a bad choice, just not a priority right at the start for me.

Lucky is one I especially love on Wizards.
This is one of the reasons Halfling has proven to be my favorite race to play.

Shadar-kai is fine though. Solid, even.
Yeah, I'm trying something new to me and the features definitely look worth it.

RogueJK

2023-03-05, 10:28 AM

Telekinesis (Int) beefs up your mage hand and gives you a useful bonus action, which a single-classed wizard frequently leaves unused unless your race has BAs like goblin. I had this on a wizard that went to 14, I loved it. There was many times a party member needed 5 more feet to get into position or moving an enemy away from yourself or an ally to keep from needing to disengage.

Absolutely. Telekinetic is a fantastic feat for just about any caster that doesn't have a reliable use of their Bonus Action every turn. And since the OP loves Mage Hand, this makes your Mage Hand even better by extending its range to 60', making it invisible, and removing all of its components so you can still use it while tied up/gagged/silenced/etc.

Chill Touch is my go-to if I pick just one damage cantrip: Necrotic is rarely resisted, the rider deals with random annoyances like regeneration, it's an attack roll so it works through magic resistance and legendary resistance, etc.

Definitely. Chill Touch is almost always a better pick than Fire Bolt, despite the slightly smaller damage dice (d8 vs d10). This is especially true if you're likely to run into enemies with Fire resistance/immunity (as you will in this particular campaign).

And if you do end up going Shadar-Kai, it fits the racial theme.

I'm deeply considering Shadar-Kai. Perception, BA teleport, and gain 2 (tool) proficiencies after a long rest (+ other).

Shadar-Kai are one of my favorite races, and as mentioned earlier, the extra durability from the damage resistance is nice if you're wanting to play a more aggressive Wizard.

Not having to prepare Misty Step saves you a preparation slot. And unlike Misty Step, your racial teleport is not a spell, and it doesn't have any spell components so you can use it while gagged/silenced.

Don't forget that you can pick a weapon proficiency from Trance too. If you have a good DEX, this can allow you to play a more "gishy" wizard, using a Rapier + Booming Blade. Or use a Crossbow in Tier 1 at times when you don't need Chill Touch's rider effects.

Ultimately Arcane Deflection (especially for the save) was more valuable to me as a low-level feature. It's unlimited and I don't mind the cantrip restriction.

Yes, Arcane Deflection is typically much more useful for the +4 save bonus than the +2 AC bonus which only works against a single attack. The save bonus can save you from a nasty save-or-suck spell, and keep it mind that it can also be used to salvage a crucial Concentration saves too.

8, 14, 14, 17, 12, 10 -or- 8, 14, 15, 16, 12, 10 -or- something else?

I'd actually do:

STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 14
INT 15+2
WIS 10
CHA 8

Then Telekinetic (18 INT) at Level 4, and Warcaster at Level 8.

But if you really want to lean into the "aggressive gishy Wizard" style, and are willing to dip a multiclass level to do so, Artificer 1/War Wizard X gets you shield proficiency and CON save proficiency, along with a couple additional cantrips and several 1st level spells prepared, some of which are non-Wizard spells. (Thorn Whip, Guidance, Cure Wounds, and Faerie Fire are especially good non-Wizard picks here.) In that case, unless your DM is a huge stickler for casting with a weapon and shield in hand, I'd skip Warcaster and instead do 18 DEX at Level 8.

Snivlem

2023-03-05, 12:24 PM

Consider goblin as your race and skill expert (intelligence +stealth expertise) as your first feat. Being hidden is probably the best defence there is in this game!

DruidAlanon

2023-03-05, 05:53 PM

Bladesinger is extremely fun, rewarding, and powerful. You'll enjoy a fullcaster gish that tanks better than most, deals great DPR and is a wizard.

Fey Touched > Telekinetic, imho. Telekinetic is more situational than misty step and the extra free Enchantment spell is good (Bane, Bless, Command, Compelled Duel, Hex, Silvery Barbs)

War Caster & Resilient (Con) are must haves.

No reason to put more than 8 in Wis, Cha, Str. Your prof in Wis saves will work fine after you stack up prof. I'd go with 8, 15, 16, 17, 8, 8. You do need to max Int and then as much as Dex and Con you can afford.

Investigation and History are useful skills.

Consider goblin as your race and skill expert (intelligence +stealth expertise) as your first feat. Being hidden is probably the best defence there is in this game!

Gobling is an excellent choice. You have quite a few options here, all good.

Kane0

2023-03-05, 06:06 PM

Does anybody know if Observant will be especially useful with this particular campaign?

I wouldn't say so, at least for the first book. Your DM might differ though.

animorte

2023-03-05, 09:47 PM

And since the OP loves Mage Hand, this makes your Mage Hand even better by extending its range to 60', making it invisible, and removing all of its components so you can still use it while tied up/gagged/silenced/etc.
That's the goal!

Definitely. Chill Touch is almost always a better pick than Fire Bolt, despite the slightly smaller damage dice (d8 vs d10). This is especially true if you're likely to run into enemies with Fire resistance/immunity (as you will in this particular campaign).
Agreed. Definitely my choice.

Not having to prepare Misty Step saves you a preparation slot. And unlike Misty Step, your racial teleport is not a spell, and it doesn't have any spell components so you can use it while gagged/silenced.
Again, that's part of my goal. Thanks for confirming. :smallsmile:

Don't forget that you can pick a weapon proficiency from Trance too. If you have a good DEX, this can allow you to play a more "gishy" wizard, using a Rapier + Booming Blade. Or use a Crossbow in Tier 1 at times when you don't need Chill Touch's rider effects.
Yeah, the crossbow as mentioned is a good idea. I don't really know that I'm going for a gish, otherwise I would definitely go Bladesinger. Having the occasional moments with the overall build is pretty neat though.

I'd actually do:

STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 14
INT 15+2
WIS 10
CHA 8
That... actually looks great. Even though I'll have proficiency in Wisdom, I don't want a -1 bringing it down.

But if you really want to lean into the "aggressive gishy Wizard" style, and are willing to dip a multiclass level to do so, Artificer 1/War Wizard X gets you shield proficiency and CON save proficiency, along with a couple additional cantrips and several 1st level spells prepared, some of which are non-Wizard spells. (Thorn Whip, Guidance, Cure Wounds, and Faerie Fire are especially good non-Wizard picks here.) In that case, unless your DM is a huge stickler for casting with a weapon and shield in hand, I'd skip Warcaster and instead do 18 DEX at Level 8.
Like I said, not really going for a gish, but I was debating whether it would even be worth playing Wizard over an Artificer (or any other caster), which I have enjoyed before. I just wanted to make it a point to do something entirely new to me this run.

Investigation and History are useful skills.
Yeah, I'm trying to prioritize Arcana, History, and Investigation.

So, I'm very likely taking Telekinetic at level 4. The additional bit of control/assistance means a lot to me, as well as buffing Mage Hand, of course.

I'm looking at Res: Con, Alert, +2 Dex, +2 Int, or something else at level 8. That all depends on how everything else goes and how I need to prepare going forth.

My cantrips currently are Mage Hand, Chill Touch, and I'm looking at other utility spells. My first thoughts are Mold Earth, Control Flames, and Shape Water. All somatic components only, but I feel like earth is the most consistently accessible, so I think that's what I'll go with.

Kane0

2023-03-05, 09:57 PM

You may want Disguise Self very early on, or something like suggestion even.

animorte

2023-03-05, 10:10 PM

You may want Disguise Self very early on, or something like suggestion even.
I will certainly keep that in mind.

MadMusketeer

2023-03-06, 04:17 AM

I'm looking at Res: Con, Alert, +2 Dex, +2 Int, or something else at level 8. That all depends on how everything else goes and how I need to prepare going forth.

You may already be aware of this, but if you're looking for concentration protection, War Caster is better than Res: Con until Tier 3 (and they also stack), so it might also be worth considering.

tokek

2023-03-06, 05:14 AM

Shadar Kai is a great choice but let me just put a word in for Harengon.

Rabbit Hop does most of the work Fey step would do for getting out of melee trouble. It’s not as good but it’s not bad.

Perception proficiency is fine. Not a big deal

Bonus initiative is amazing on any full caster. Combined with War Magic you will go first in most combats. Alert feat might be overkill but is still great, maybe you can delay taking it due to your hood init and take lucky instead.

A bonus on your dex saves is more niche but it’s certainly not bad.

But let’s be honest - mechanically it’s all about leaning hard into the bonus initiative so you can be the best control wizard.

DruidAlanon

2023-03-06, 06:19 AM

Like I said, not really going for a gish, but I was debating whether it would even be worth playing Wizard over an Artificer (or any other caster), which I have enjoyed before. I just wanted to make it a point to do something entirely new to me this run.

A war wizard/bladesinger that is not a gish is less fun, imo. You may want to have a clear idea of what you want this character to do in combat.

Yes, alert is definetly worth considering. Warcaster too, if you plan to gish.

My cantrips currently are Mage Hand, Chill Touch, and I'm looking at other utility spells. My first thoughts are Mold Earth, Control Flames, and Shape Water. All somatic components only, but I feel like earth is the most consistently accessible, so I think that's what I'll go with.

Minor Illusion is far better utility than thesse in my experience, and has uses both in and out of combat. Especially Control Flames is almost purely flavor, and prestigidation probably does this better.

animorte

2023-03-06, 10:41 AM

You may already be aware of this, but if you're looking for concentration protection, War Caster is better than Res: Con until Tier 3 (and they also stack), so it might also be worth considering.
Absolutely. Advantage is better than proficiency statistically, I believe.

Shadar Kai is a great choice but let me just put a word in for Harengon.

But let’s be honest - mechanically it’s all about leaning hard into the bonus initiative so you can be the best control wizard.
The thing keeping me from Harengon is that it's been my primary choice for several duelist builds and I'm seeking something different. It's got wonderful features and difficult to replace.

A war wizard/bladesinger that is not a gish is less fun, imo. You may want to have a clear idea of what you want this character to do in combat.

Yes, alert is definetly worth considering. Warcaster too, if you plan to gish.
I'm more leaning toward a blaster/control. I just wanted a subclass that would provide an alternative resilience without requiring as many spells. Unlimited use Arcane Deflection really stood out to me.

My concern with Bladesong is what one does after those two uses for the rest of the day?

Minor Illusion is far better utility than thesse in my experience, and has uses both in and out of combat. Especially Control Flames is almost purely flavor, and prestigidation probably does this better.
Agreed on Minor Illusion. It used to be a favorite of mine, but it loses a lot of potential (involving NPCs) when my brother is DM.

Consider goblin

Gobling is an excellent choice. You have quite a few options here, all good.
I keep looking back at it this. I imagine a scenario in which something attacks me and I trigger Arcane Deflection reaction or I need to Counterspell as my reaction. Then have one of those cinematic "My Turn" moments and blast them in the face with a spell + Fury of the Small + Power Surge (which I realize is only +9 damage at level 6).

I'm also observing that unlimited use bonus action disengage in case something comes in... Hmm... Folks, that analysis paralysis is beginning to set in. Run away!

solidork

2023-03-06, 11:04 AM

I'm also observing that unlimited use bonus action disengage in case something comes in... Hmm... Folks, that analysis paralysis is beginning to set in. Run away!

I know you're joking, but I will once again advocate to think about what kind of character concept you want to play - who is your character, what do they want, what is their place in the world, what are they like? Big questions you need to answer include - what are you doing on the Sword Coast and why do you want to take on the Cult of the Dragon?

There are always many good options and looking from perspective of these intangibles can help you decide between equally good options. For example, when deciding between Warcaster and Resilient: Con - do you see your character as having special training blending magic and combat, or are they just tougher because of their experiences? Your character decided to learn all of the spells they know, what would they pick and why? Or did someone teach you and that is what guided your spell selection?

This isn't always helpful for everyone, but I find it useful and I feel someone needs to push back against the instinct to just do whatever is the "best", since that is the overwhelming drive for most posters here.

RogueJK

2023-03-06, 11:22 AM

Rabbit Hop does most of the work Fey step would do for getting out of melee trouble. It’s not as good but it’s not bad.

If the goal is strictly to get out of a melee enemy's reach without getting hit, then yes, Rabbit Hop does most of what Misty Step/Fey Step/Blessing of the Raven Queen does. But Rabbit Hop is not a teleport, and doesn't work if your speed is 0.

Whereas any of the various BA 30' teleport abilities can be used to get out of a melee enemy's reach without getting hit, but they also allow you to escape any number of nasty grapple/restrain effects that various enemies have, as well as do stuff like avoid intervening battlefield or environmental hazards or access inaccessible areas during exploration (teleporting 30' up, through a keyhole, etc.)

And it's longer range too, until Level 17 when Rabbit Hop finally equals 30'. So a 30' BA teleport is significantly more powerful than Rabbit Hop, and using it to avoid OAs is actually one of the least useful uses of your BA teleport ability.

If you're going to be going with Rabbit Hop because you're strictly worried about to avoid melee OAs, a Goblin can do that with their BA Disengage, and that's unlimited uses per day instead of just 2-4.

Eldariel

2023-03-06, 11:37 AM

A war wizard/bladesinger that is not a gish is less fun, imo. You may want to have a clear idea of what you want this character to do in combat.

Yes, alert is definetly worth considering. Warcaster too, if you plan to gish.

Lucky also. You seem to have even Con making Res: Con less alluring. If you don't get hit too often (and as a War Wizard, you are unlikely to), you can actually get by with those 3 points just fine, while also enhancing your Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and being useful in general.

Minor Illusion is far better utility than thesse in my experience, and has uses both in and out of combat. Especially Control Flames is almost purely flavor, and prestigidation probably does this better.

Minor Illusion is great but the rest aren't bad either. Mold Earth is the strongest of the bunch; essentially burrow speed, at-will fortifications, burying CCd enemies alive, etc. - it has a ton of uses. But Control Flames isn't bad; it has the largest light radius of all abilities. Bullseye Lantern has 60' bright light, another 60' dim light: with Control Flames that's 120' bright and another 120' dim light surpassing basically any form of Darkvision. Expanding and extinguishing are situationally useful and do note that it's S-only unlike Prestidigitation, which has V as well meaning when you need to extinguish flames while remaining unnoticed, Control Flames is your choice, so while Prestidigitation is useful, Control Flames has its uses too. Control Flames is actually my preferred light spell due to the ranges you can get with it if I need a light source.

Gust is perhaps the weakest of the bunch. Shape Water is obviously amazing for making basically any objects out of water as well as for diverting water and such. Mostly the objects though. Gust has the least obvious uses being the most situational especially as it doesn't by RAW really interact with most Fog-spells even though it probably should.

animorte

2023-03-06, 12:57 PM

I know you're joking, but I will once again advocate to think about what kind of character concept you want to play - who is your character, what do they want, what is their place in the world, what are they like? Big questions you need to answer include - what are you doing on the Sword Coast and why do you want to take on the Cult of the Dragon?

There are always many good options and looking from perspective of these intangibles can help you decide between equally good options. For example, when deciding between Warcaster and Resilient: Con - do you see your character as having special training blending magic and combat, or are they just tougher because of their experiences? Your character decided to learn all of the spells they know, what would they pick and why? Or did someone teach you and that is what guided your spell selection?

This isn't always helpful for everyone, but I find it useful and I feel someone needs to push back against the instinct to just do whatever is the "best", since that is the overwhelming drive for most posters here.
I genuinely appreciate your concern on this note, especially remembering that last point. I've preached on these very forums many times that it's important to discover the motivation for your characters and, above all, have fun (preferably not at the expense of your table-mates).

I will definitely bring some more of this to the front of my thought. As I said in the opening, this just happens to be one of those times that my build concept came before the character itself.

Whereas any of the various BA 30' teleport abilities can be used to get out of a melee enemy's reach without getting hit, but they also allow you to escape any number of nasty grapple/restrain effects that various enemies have, as well as do stuff like avoid intervening battlefield or environmental hazards or access inaccessible areas during exploration (teleporting 30' up, through a keyhole, etc.)

a Goblin can do that with their BA Disengage, and that's unlimited uses per day instead of just 2-4.
In your opinion, which of these two would be more valuable overall, Shadar Kai vs Goblin? Keep in mind, I'm not really planning a gish, but any form of more efficient movement is excellent.

I mean, I suppose there's Misty Step and Kinetic Jaunt, each for those different purposes, both 2nd level. But then KJ is concentration, eh.

Minor Illusion is great but the rest aren't bad either. Mold Earth is the strongest of the bunch; essentially burrow speed, at-will fortifications, burying CCd enemies alive, etc. - it has a ton of uses. But Control Flames isn't bad; it has the largest light radius of all abilities. Bullseye Lantern has 60' bright light, another 60' dim light: with Control Flames that's 120' bright and another 120' dim light surpassing basically any form of Darkvision. Expanding and extinguishing are situationally useful and do note that it's S-only unlike Prestidigitation, which has V as well meaning when you need to extinguish flames while remaining unnoticed, Control Flames is your choice, so while Prestidigitation is useful, Control Flames has its uses too. Control Flames is actually my preferred light spell due to the ranges you can get with it if I need a light source.
I'll talk about this bit for a minute. I let go of Prestidigitation years ago. It's still nice sometimes with plenty of uses, but the things that weighed it down for me are V + S + 10 foot range. That range can be excruciating for various circumstances. I've got a lot of thoughts on Mage Hand vs other utility cantrips, but I'll leave it at, "my creativity knows no bounds!" (Remember, it can carry up to 10 pounds and think of just how many common items are under that weight limit.)

Anyway, I do believe I'll go with Mold Earth on this one, though I've only got a little experience with it. Depending on what the environment feels like, I will very likely just add more utility cantrips upon leveling.

Side note: I've always wanted to find a use for Encode Thoughts, but it doesn't seem particularly useful, maybe a little flashy.

RogueJK

2023-03-06, 02:13 PM

In your opinion, which of these two would be more valuable overall, Shadar Kai vs Goblin? Keep in mind, I'm not really planning a gish, but any form of more efficient movement is excellent.

Goblins do make great Wizards, but in this case I'd go with Shadar-Kai.

Kane0

2023-03-06, 02:58 PM

RogueJK

2023-03-06, 03:51 PM

Keep in mind that we're talking about the adventure that came out before the DMG and MM, bringing the most optimal character possible with access to Xanathar's and Tasha's goodies is probably overkill.

Not necessarily! That adventure was written before the 5E rules were finalized, and before anyone had a solid grasp of 5E balancing. As a result, some of the fights can be downright brutal without the DM tweaking things.

Kane0

2023-03-06, 04:58 PM

Yeah i know, there are a few that are straight up unfair. Looking at you, the entire first night of HotDQ.
But at this point they're largely known quantities and likely to be accounted for by the DM, or not much you can do about as a player anyways

animorte

2023-03-07, 02:17 AM

A chill in the air, while common, sinks into the skin particularly deep on this night. The never-ending fog provides it's own comfort. This is home... was home. A source predicted some form of portal here, leading out from under the power of the Raven Queen, at least for now. He learned all he felt was worth knowing from here...

In the distance, the utter darkness is separated by... nothing? It somehow shimmers through the normal pitch black of night, seeming obvious only when directly in one's gaze. A bit of fog passes in front of his vision, and he's lost the - absence. Then it barely flickers again, ah there. These were told to last anywhere between seconds and years. "How long has this been here?" Maybe he could have found this much sooner, maybe time has almost run out. His heart begins to accelerate at the urgency of the unknown. He's checked his pack a hundred times; he pats the cloak pockets and tucks the book under his arm tightly. He mutters an ancient phrase while forming his hand in a practiced motion, and feels a force of protection hover around him. No use waiting any longer. He takes a deep breath and steps tranquil into the dancing void...

After a moment everything comes into view, suddenly the air doesn't bite so deep, but a chill still lingers. The darkness here isn't quite so absolute, the fog not nearly so thick. Dozens of stones ascend from the ground in every direction. Several other humanoid figures are scattered about, but something is off about them. A voice echoes out through the the hallowed ground, "About time!" It doesn't seem to be speaking to him in particular, but he wasn't expecting a welcome party. He didn't know what to expect really, but he came prepared, at least he hopes he did. Suddenly all of the other figures begin stumbling rather lazy toward the origin of the voice. He doesn't move...

Several months later, he thinks back to his first night here. All those walking corpses in the graveyard, the portal that's long gone now, the other wizard. "About time!" The same voice from that night breaks him out of the memory. "You've earned your colors. Let's go." It's no fancy ceremony, just being presented new robes. He's grown accustomed to the colors here over time, something his birthplace knew very little of...

Another few months later and that same voice threatens him from a distance, "Pray my path does not cross yours again!" He increases the distance with every source at his disposal. He had learned details of an unpleasant nature, things he planned to have no part in. Not to mention the expectation of limited magic. To many here, the red robe is a death sentence, but he would keep it as a symbol of a new life, maybe it would find use later. Despite the nature of recent events, this is a life gifted with warmth and color. He plans to preserve it and somehow find a way to fight against the very same evil that welcomed him here...

"I have known aggressive mages to die before their time. I have known passive mages to die and achieve nothing. My path is one of balance, knowing when to step up and when to stand down."

KorvinStarmast

2023-03-07, 09:51 AM

Goblins do make great Wizards, but in this case I'd go with Shadar-Kai. I will second this motion.
I got good use out of the telekinteic feat.
That said, Alert on a Wizard is really good.
Arcana: take it before history or religion or nature.

If your party's rogue goes Scout (which is a nice kit) the party will have a nature check expert.

I like the back story. :smallcool:

animorte

2023-03-07, 03:38 PM

I will second this motion.
I got good use out of the telekinteic feat.
That said, Alert on a Wizard is really good.
Arcana: take it before history or religion or nature.
Copy, 10-4, Roger that!

If your party's rogue goes Scout (which is a nice kit) the party will have a nature check expert.
So far it looks as though the party is going to resemble the following:

Me: Shadar Kai War Wizard (Unless something stands out as a clear weakness, Telekinetic is definitely my level 4 feat.)
VHuman Fighter, Rune Knight (Definitely starting Cloud, maybe also Fire, then Hill?)
Race? Order Cleric (This should cover some "party face" stuff.)
Race? Scout Rogue (yay, nature awareness and mobility)
The Fighter and Rogue still have some time before they get to the subclass (me too technically, just not as long), but it's nice to know where they're going with it.

I like the back story. :smallcool:
:smallsmile: I definitely did some research on Shadowfell and Thay to accomplish this.* I left some gaps on the information overall so the DM can help me fill in as we go exactly how much my character knows. This whole thing was fun, being that my favorite colors are (anything) neutral + red.

*I may or may not visit Tawmis to fill in some blanks that I intentionally left. Now I just need a name!