Creating a 3.5e Cleric of "Selune"

[DarkMoon250]

Hello again. I've posted here before about this, but I've received updated info about how this campaign will play out.

I've been accepted into a homebrew game that uses modified versions of Forgotten Realms deities for its pantheon. For the Cleric I'm working on, I've chosen Selune, known as Nordanna in this world. Everything that Selune has available in terms of options, Nordanna does as well.

My rolls were decent, but unlike the others, I didn't crack anything above a +2 (15, 14, 13, 13, 13, 13). For this reason, I thought about starting off with the thematic aasimar or human lycanthrope, or maybe even shifter. With aasimar, alongside my lvl 4 ASI (we start at lvl 5), I could start with 13 Str, 13 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 18 Wis, 15 Cha. If I go lycanthrope, in which case I'd choose werewolf... I don't know what my stats would look like, but I know there's a +2 to Wis :p

I was wondering what feats I might want to look at, especially since we can get 2 more at the start with flaws. Are Initiate of Selune or Lunar Magic fun? What domains should I latch onto? I thought about Moon, Travel, or Chastity. And what prestige classes should I take into account? Is it possible to translate Silverstar into 3.5e?

Also, with these stats, what role should I focus on in the party? There's a Barbarian, Fighter, heavily modified Truenamer, and Wizard.

If anyone has any insights they could share, it'd be much appreciated :)

[JNAProductions]

Is LA being waived? Lycanthropes have LA, generally speaking.

And consider being middle-aged, for +1 to all mental stats and -1 to all physical stats.

[DarkMoon250]

Is LA being waived? Lycanthropes have LA, generally speaking.

And consider being middle-aged, for +1 to all mental stats and -1 to all physical stats.

LA can be bought off.

I had thought about being middle aged, but I kind of like having 13 Str for being able to carry just a little more than I could with 12. That, and +2 Con mod is very nice.

[Inevitability]

If you want to go shifter, then cleric into moonspeaker is a very solid build avenue. You could go cloistered cleric 3 / church inquisitor 6 / moonspeaker 11 to get full casting advancement, a thematic anti-lycanthrope ability from church inquisitor, and a bunch of other little abilities like compulsion immunity, charm immunity, at-will detect evil, and a ton of solid summoning abilities.

Knowledge Devotion is a rather solid feat that lets you grab knowledge (nature) as a class skill, which is useful but not necessary for moonspeaker entry. PHB II has the Apprentice feat, which will also do this if you select Woodsman, Philosopher, or Spellcaster, the last of which is probably best.

[False God]

Personally, I'm not a fan of the werewolf. For as iconic the creature is, it simply doesn't pack much oomph for its overall +4 adjustment, and certainly not in comparison to the stat bumps vs the level adjustment from some of the other lycanthropes.

I'd lean towards the Hengeyokai (no LA) which gives you the shapeshifting features, just no power adjustment, and you wouldn't be missing out on any of those sweet cleric caster levels either. There's a "dog" form which could easily be flavored as a wolf.

Frankly, given the other party members, whether you like it or not it looks like your role will be buffer/healer.

[DarkMoon250]

Frankly, given the other party members, whether you like it or not it looks like your role will be buffer/healer.

I expected that, but is there any secondary role I could fulfill? And which of Selune's domains would suit a buffer? Chastity seems like it offers good support, and Moon has interesting utility like Good Hope and Moon Path, as well as stuff to help fight undead, which seem like they will be common in this adventure.

[Maat Mons]

I think Selune’s most interesting domains are Dream, Moon, and Travel. Though Dream has probably already passed it’s prime by level 5.

Personally, I thought your raptoran idea from the previous thread was a good thematic fit. Because owls.

I don’t really get why you’d say aasimar has a thematic connection. Unless your ancestor was a Hound Archon?

The web enhancement for Savage Species has a dog-person race called laika. Dragon magazine (and the Compendium too) has a dog-person race called lupin.

[Anthrowhale]

I expected that, but is there any secondary role I could fulfill? And which of Selune's domains would suit a buffer? Chastity seems like it offers good support, and Moon has interesting utility like Good Hope and Moon Path, as well as stuff to help fight undead, which seem like they will be common in this adventure.

In terms of alternative roles:

If you pick up extend/persist/DMM[persist], then you can persist mass lesser vigor for buffing and darkfire for archery purposes.

If you pick up the travel domain, it allows you to add survival as a class skill, which you can potentially exchange for sense motive as per skilled city dweller (https://web.archive.org/web/20190813011247/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). That gives you both diplomacy and sense motive, the two most important face skills.

Edit: One other thought is that you can have fine-grained control over lycanthropy using the savage progressions (https://web.archive.org/web/20191220081431/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a). For example, you could be a Lesser Aasimar who took one level of Werewolf and bought it off at level 3 in your back story. That would leave you a humanoid with the shapechanger subtype, Wis+4, Cha+2, natural armor +2, alternate form (wolf), low-light vision, darkvision 60', spot/listen+2, Daylight 1/day, resistance to acid/cold/electricity 5, bonus feat (Track), and LA+0.

Edit2: Aasimars are famous for being able to early entry Paragnostic Apostle, if desired.

[Rebel7284]

I mean, if you want to be a creature of the night with a Wisdom bonus, anthropomorphic bat is right there with its -4 Str +6 Wis -2 Cha and 1 HD that gets traded in for a class level. With LA buyoff on the table, you can still add templates of course.

Feral creature has +4 Str, –2 Dex, +2 Con, –4 Int (minimum 2), +2 Wis. (+1 LA)
Saint has +2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha and a ton of special abilities, but exalted status is hard to RP. (+2 LA)
Draconic creature is Str +2, Cha +2, Con +2 (+1 LA)

Of course not taking a template is fine too.

The problem with Lycanthrope specifically is that it gives you both LA and animal HD, both of which delay casting. Would not recommend.

Draconic bat personally makes me think of Noibat from Pokémon. 😄

[DarkMoon250]

I mean, if you want to be a creature of the night with a Wisdom bonus, anthropomorphic bat is right there with its -4 Str +6 Wis -2 Cha and 1 HD that gets traded in for a class level. With LA buyoff on the table, you can still add templates of course.

Feral creature has +4 Str, –2 Dex, +2 Con, –4 Int (minimum 2), +2 Wis. (+1 LA)
Saint has +2 Con, +2 Wis, +4 Cha and a ton of special abilities, but exalted status is hard to RP. (+2 LA)
Draconic creature is Str +2, Cha +2, Con +2 (+1 LA)

Of course not taking a template is fine too.

The problem with Lycanthrope specifically is that it gives you both LA and animal HD, both of which delay casting. Would not recommend.

Draconic bat personally makes me think of Noibat from Pokémon. 😄

I forgot about the Saint template. Would you recommend that on a human/elf/half-elf, or should I just stick to aasimar alone?

[DarkMoon250]

In terms of alternative roles:

If you pick up extend/persist/DMM[persist], then you can persist mass lesser vigor for buffing and darkfire for archery purposes.

If you pick up the travel domain, it allows you to add survival as a class skill, which you can potentially exchange for sense motive as per skilled city dweller (https://web.archive.org/web/20190813011247/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). That gives you both diplomacy and sense motive, the two most important face skills.

Edit: One other thought is that you can have fine-grained control over lycanthropy using the savage progressions (https://web.archive.org/web/20191220081431/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a). For example, you could be a Lesser Aasimar who took one level of Werewolf and bought it off at level 3 in your back story. That would leave you a humanoid with the shapechanger subtype, Wis+4, Cha+2, natural armor +2, alternate form (wolf), low-light vision, darkvision 60', spot/listen+2, Daylight 1/day, resistance to acid/cold/electricity 5, bonus feat (Track), and LA+0.

Edit2: Aasimars are famous for being able to early entry Paragnostic Apostle, if desired.

I find everything that you mentioned INCREDIBLY interesting. Please tell me more, if you have time

[Rebel7284]

I forgot about the Saint template. Would you recommend that on a human/elf/half-elf, or should I just stick to aasimar alone?

I mean, I would recommend it on a bat for +8 Wis and potentially more interesting roleplay.

But between Human and Aasimar, I think it's really close and depends if the built you plan out needs the extra feat or not. (Elf and half elf offer nothing of value)

[ShurikVch]

I forgot about the Saint template. Would you recommend that on a human/elf/half-elf, or should I just stick to aasimar alone?
Note: the most iconic "Planar Allies" for the moon goddess are the "Shards of Selûne" (blue-haired planetar (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) girls)
Book of Exalted Deeds revised Level Adjustment for Half-Celestial (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm) template: now, for creatures with 1 or 2 racial HD it's only +2
So, how about the Half-Celestial Moon Elf, fluffed as a child of the Shard?

[Anthrowhale]

I find everything that you mentioned INCREDIBLY interesting. Please tell me more, if you have time

Well, on the DMM persist angle, it suggests your first 3 feats are:
Flaw 1: Extend Spell
Flaw 2: Persistent spell
1. Divine Metamagic[Persistent Spell]
3. ??

Then you spend 3K for a lesser rod of extend spell and 1k(?) on a reliquary holy symbol (in Magic item compendium). That leaves you with 3+2(cha)+2(Reliquary Holy symbol) turning attempts, just enough to persist one spell per day. If you extend the persisted spell with the rod then it lasts for 2 days. Thus on alternate days you can extend+persist mass lesser vigor (fast heal 1 for the whole party) and Darkfire (for archery purposes).

You could further double your set of persistent spells by becoming middle aged (or swapping the 14 into the charisma slot), letting your 3rd feat be extra turning, and casting eagle's splendor each day at buffing time.

On the party face angle, your other teammate likely don't have the skills or the requisite charisma + wisdom to function effectively. Frontliners are typically forced to optimized physical stats and wizards lack social skills. The most important skills are diplomacy and sense motive, one of which you already have. The other could theoretically be exchanged for survival from the travel domain as per the skilled city dweller rules. That's an unusual move, so you should check with your DM---it does seem to check out though. (Travel domain makes survival a class skill and a survival class skill can be exchanged for a sense motive class skill.)

A savage progression lycanthrope (I'd recommend weretiger, wereboar, or werebear to avoid accidentally picking up an evil alignment), allows you to take just one level of lycanthrope and zero levels of the animal progression. That one level can be bought off at level 3 and gives a Wis+2 bonus amongst other benefits. Incidentally, there's also a savage progression half-celestial which an aasimar qualifies for. Taking this route requires that you be a lesser aasimar (as per rules in PGTF) which is humanoid[planetouched] rather than outsider but otherwise retains all the aasimar's traits. The requirement is due to lycanthropy not applying to outsiders.

Paragnostic apostle can be entered after level 2 by an aasimar since daylight is a level 3 SLA. Something like Cloistered Cleric 2/Paragnostic Apostle 3 is appealing for you. Non of the PA abilities are game breaking, but you get a nice benefit at each level. For example energy supremacy[fire] adds 1 to your caster level, allowing your darkfire to do 3d6 damage instead of 2d6. Manifest Ethos[good] allows half your archery damage to penetrate fire damage resistance by evil bad guys. And Spatial Awareness makes Persistent[Elation] give a more notable +15 to speed.

Do you have specific questions?

[DarkMoon250]

Note: the most iconic "Planar Allies" for the moon goddess are the "Shards of Selûne" (blue-haired planetar (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelPlanetar) girls)
Book of Exalted Deeds revised Level Adjustment for Half-Celestial (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm) template: now, for creatures with 1 or 2 racial HD it's only +2
So, how about the Half-Celestial Moon Elf, fluffed as a child of the Shard?

What are the full rules for the Exalted Deeds version? Is it just the same as the original half-celestial template, but with only LA +2?

[ShurikVch]

What are the full rules for the Exalted Deeds version? Is it just the same as the original half-celestial template, but with only LA +2?
Depends on HD of base creature:


HD
LA


1-2
+2


3-4
+3


5-6
+4


7-8
+5


9-10
+6


11-12
+7

[Anthrowhale]

So, how about the Half-Celestial Moon Elf, fluffed as a child of the Shard?

You could also do a half-celestial lesser aasimar with LA+1 using just one step of the aasimar->half-celestial savage progression (https://web.archive.org/web/20191220081535/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a). The Str+2/Con+2 fit particularly well with middle-aged, since you can have Str 14 and Con 14.

[DarkMoon250]

You could also do a half-celestial lesser aasimar with LA+1 using just one step of the aasimar->half-celestial savage progression (https://web.archive.org/web/20191220081535/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a). The Str+2/Con+2 fit particularly well with middle-aged, since you can have Str 14 and Con 14.

This looks extremely interesting. I'm not familiar with the savage progression rules, though. What more can you tell me?

[Anthrowhale]

This looks extremely interesting. I'm not familiar with the savage progression rules, though. What more can you tell me?

You take a level, and then you have LA+1. Your DM is allowing buyoff at level 3, so after using that you'll be LA+0 when the game starts. There is explicitly no obligation to take other levels, although you could choose to do so. You may want to check with your DM about how buyoff affects starting level, as it does require XP.

One possibility is taking a level and buying it off every 3 levels, which would generally leave the character about a level behind the other characters but allow you to pick up LA+6 with full buyoff by level 18. Thus, you could combine the savage progression half-celestial transition class with a savage progression wereboar on a lesser aasimar.

[DarkMoon250]

You take a level, and then you have LA+1. Your DM is allowing buyoff at level 3, so after using that you'll be LA+0 when the game starts. There is explicitly no obligation to take other levels, although you could choose to do so. You may want to check with your DM about how buyoff affects starting level, as it does require XP.

One possibility is taking a level and buying it off every 3 levels, which would generally leave the character about a level behind the other characters but allow you to pick up LA+6 with full buyoff by level 18. Thus, you could combine the savage progression half-celestial transition class with a savage progression wereboar on a lesser aasimar.

My DM says I would need to use the normal +1 LA aasimar, because the half-celestial transition levels assume that you are already a native outsider, which the lesser aasimar no longer is. How might this affect your assessment of my level ups?

[Anthrowhale]

My DM says I would need to use the normal +1 LA aasimar, because the half-celestial transition levels assume that you are already a native outsider, which the lesser aasimar no longer is. How might this affect your assessment of my level ups?

Presumably, you would buyoff the aasimar LA before taking anything else. You could then backstory picking up the first level of the half-celestial savage progression, which would presumably imply starting as a 4th level character with LA+1 (so ECL 5). Then, you can buy it off once you reach character level 6 (ECL 7). This may or may not be worthwhile. The big downside is losing access to 3rd level spells like mass lesser vigor.

[DarkMoon250]

Presumably, you would buyoff the aasimar LA before taking anything else. You could then backstory picking up the first level of the half-celestial savage progression, which would presumably imply starting as a 4th level character with LA+1 (so ECL 5). Then, you can buy it off once you reach character level 6 (ECL 7). This may or may not be worthwhile. The big downside is losing access to 3rd level spells like mass lesser vigor.

Would it be better to start out with a human to get an extra feat and skill point per level and use a modified version of the half-fiend transition (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101073937/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) to reach the half-celestial template rather than use the aasimar/half-celestial transition?

What are the advantages either way?

[Anthrowhale]

Would it be better to start out with a human to get an extra feat and skill point per level and use a modified version of the half-fiend transition (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101073937/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a) to reach the half-celestial template rather than use the aasimar/half-celestial transition?

There's a great deal of DM adjudication there, so not clear.

An extra feat and an extra skill can be quite useful, but it would be helpful to pin down what you would want them for as their value varies. Offhand, it would let you pick up another extra turning which would allow you to persist 2 spells, which is certainly valuable.

On the other hand, from a pure power-gaming perspective, I'd probably only use LA that I can buy off before the game starts because 3rd level spells really matter. Also, you can already squeeze out an extra persistent spell per day with a minor adjustment to stats (con 14 -> Con 13, Cha 13 -> Cha 14+2(race)+4(eagle's splendor)=20) for 14 = 3(base)+5(cha)+2(reliquary)+4(extra turning) turn undeads. Con 13 is ok on an archer character.

[Rebel7284]

If your game is likely to last a few levels, you can take Rebuke Dragons (DrM, p 14) or Destroy Undead (ECR, p 206) alternate class features and then built toward Sacred Exorcist to double your turning pools.

Good spells to persist at low levels (ideally with Extend Rod)
- Mass Lesser Vigor (SpC): Great party buff
- Elation (BoED): Great party buff
- Channeled Divine Shield (PHB2): Damage Reduction 10 is pretty amazing at low levels
- Cloud of Knives (PHB2): Extra attack is nifty
- Divine Retaliation (PHB2): Extra attacks if anyone hits you in melee
- Ice Axe or Darkfire (SpC): Replace your primary weapon with touch attacks. Ice Axe hits harder at lower levels, but can't be thrown.

notably if your charisma+items is high enough to get all of these, you become a pretty incredible tank in addition to buffing your party.

[Anthrowhale]

If your game is likely to last a few levels, you can take Rebuke Dragons (DrM, p 14) or Destroy Undead (ECR, p 206) alternate class features and then built toward Sacred Exorcist to double your turning pools.

Good spells to persist at low levels (ideally with Extend Rod)
- Mass Lesser Vigor (SpC): Great party buff
- Elation (BoED): Great party buff
- Channeled Divine Shield (PHB2): Damage Reduction 10 is pretty amazing at low levels
- Cloud of Knives (PHB2): Extra attack is nifty
- Divine Retaliation (PHB2): Extra attacks if anyone hits you in melee
- Ice Axe or Darkfire (SpC): Replace your primary weapon with touch attacks. Ice Axe hits harder at lower levels, but can't be thrown.

notably if your charisma+items is high enough to get all of these, you become a pretty incredible tank in addition to buffing your party.

That's a good list. I'd suggest Mass Lesser Vigor, Elation, Channeled Divine Shield, and Darkfire. Channeled Divine Shield alone is good enough that losing 5 hit points due to constitution 12 or 13 instead of 14 is a fine tradeoff.

[ShurikVch]

Moon-related stuff (more just for the theme than for optimization. Maybe you would like something)

Spells:
Countermoon (Druid 2; Spell Compendium) - forces a lycanthrope back to its natural form and keeps it from changing form, preventing both voluntary and involuntary shapechanging
Lunacy (Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard 6; Dragon #340) - curses a victim with madness tied to the moon
Moon Blade (Hathran/Nentyar Hunter/Moon 3; Spell Compendium) - call a 3' swordlike beam of moonlight into your hand, which does - as a touch attack - 1d8+CL (up to +10) damage to living creature, or 2d8+CL (up to +20) to Undead; wounded mages must do Concentration check in order to use their magic
Moon Bolt (Cleric/Druid 4; Spell Compendium) - living creatures take 1d4 Str damage; Undead (on failed save) are helpless for 1d4 rounds and -2 penalty for attack and Will for a minute
Moon Lust (Cleric 1; Spell Compendium) - instills in the target an obsessive fascination with the moon
Moon Path (Hathran/Nentyar Hunter/Moon 5; Spell Compendium) - pure, pale moonlight shapes itself into a stair or bridge, as you desire
Moon's Change (Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard 3; Dragon #340) - +2 enhancement bonus to Str/Dex/Con; at the second round - increases to +4, at the third - to +6, at the last two - goes back to +4 and +2
Moonbeam (Hathran/Nentyar Hunter/Moon 2; Spell Compendium) - cone of moonlight which compels lycanthropes to take animal shape
Moonbow (Sorcerer/Wizard 5; Spell Compendium) - conjures three glowing motes of electricity, which do 1d6 damage per 2 CL (up to 10d6)
Moonfire (Moon 9; Spell Compendium) - cone-shaped burst does 1d8 damage per 2 CL for any living creatures (up to 10d8) or 1d8/CL to Undead (up to 20d8); all the magical auras in the area are glowing, and disguised/polymorphed/shapechanged creatures must make Will save or return to their natural form; area also blocks electricity damage unless the successful CL check
Moonbridge (Cleric/Druid 3; Dragon #340) - solidifies moonlight into a bridge
Moonweb (Initiate of Selune 5; Player's Guide to Faerûn) - create an immobile barrier of force that glows as though with moonlight; from the inside, it is transparent and passable; from the outside, it is opaque and virtually impassable
Motes of Moonlight (Cleric/Druid 1; Dragon #340) - creates an illuminating beam of moonlight
Sever Ties Of The Moon (Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard 3; Dragon #340) - gives a lycanthrope increased control of its shape, but fatigues it
Stars of Selûne (Cleric 4; Champions of Valor) - up to 5 stars orbiting your head like ioun stones, can launch them as a swift action, causing 1d8 force and 1d8 cold damage to Evil creatures
Wall of Moonlight (Initiate of Selûne 4; Player's Guide to Faerûn) - cause 4d12 damage to Undead touching t, or 2d10 to Evil creature; magical items glowing with red faerie fire effect for 1d4+1 rounds; counters and dispels any darkness spells up to 4th level

Feats:
Born under the Crescent Moon (Dragon #340) - +1 on Sense Motive and Spot checks, Detect Thoughts SLA 1/day
Born under the Full Moon (Dragon #340) - +1 on Intimidate and Use Magical Device checks, Command SLA 1/day
Born under the Gibbous Moon (Dragon #340) - +1 on Bluff and Gather Information checks, Calm Animals SLA 1/day
Born under the Half Moon (Dragon #340) - +1 on Balance and Concentration checks, Expeditious Retreat SLA 1/day
Born under the New Moon (Dragon #340) - +1 on Hide and Sleight of Hand checks, Disguise Self SLA 1/day
Cormanthyran Moon Magic (Lost Empires of Faerûn) - +2 CL while under moonlight
Initiate of the Holy Realm (Champions of Valor) - +1 on all saves while withing the Holy Realm or on a quest specifically dedicated to supporting the Holy Realm; add spells Alarm, Handfire, Horrible Taste, Rosemantle, Lionheart, Love Bite, and Warning to your list
Initiate of Selune (Player's Guide to Faerûn) - you cast Augury and Divination spells at +5 CL; add spells Handfire, Moon Blade, Strength of the Beast, Wall of Moonlight, Moon Path, and Moonweb to your list
Lunar Magic (City of Splendors: Waterdeep) - +1 CL at the days of the full moon, but -1 CL at the days of the new moon
Moonwarrior (Dragon #313) - +1 to attack in low light, in the moonlight - also +1 to damage
Nocturnal Caster (Tome of Magic) - +1 DC for spells of the chosen school during the night

Nightsighted (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#nightsighted) trait

In the Kingdoms of Kalamar, clerics of the Shimmering One (deity which was explicitly based on Selûne) are can get - by taking the Divine Channeling feat - the Waxing Beauty special ability: by spending a daily use of Turn Undead, they gain Cha bonus for 10 minutes (number depends on the moon's phase, but since it's hard to track - just roll d4 for the number)