Have hypnotic pattern, do I need web?

[Snig]

Simple question. At level 5 I'll be getting hypnotic pattern. Web fills much of the same need for mass CC. My question is, should I spend one of my valuable spell selections on web?

[RogueJK]

Yes. There are a fairly large number of enemies who are immune to Charm effects, so you can't use Hypnotic Pattern in every fight.

And while Hypnotic Pattern is a powerful save-or-suck spell, it's also one-and-done, whereas Web creates a persistent hazard that enemies have to take into account even if they make their initial save, having to make subsequent saves if they again enter the webbed area or start their turn there, and having to spend extra movement to get through its difficult terrain.

It's really apples and oranges, useful in different scenarios. Both are excellent spells, and worth keeping around even when you have the other.

[Kane0]

Are you worried about going too heavy into control spells at the expense of blasts and utility? You could try swapping web to Rimes Binding Ice if so.

[da newt]

Need - nah.

Is it a good idea to have both - yeah.

It all depends on how you like to play, the rest of the party, the campaign/bad-guys/DM, and whatever makes you happy.

As RogueJK pointed out they do similar things but in different ways and sometimes you want to save a big spell slot too.

[Frogreaver]

Simple question. At level 5 I'll be getting hypnotic pattern. Web fills much of the same need for mass CC. My question is, should I spend one of my valuable spell selections on web?

Are you a Wizard?

[Snig]

Are you a Wizard?

Yessir, playing an enchanting wizard.

[KorvinStarmast]

I like web, but as often as not I prefer slow.

[KillingTime]

Definitely worth it on a wizard.
As others have already posted, it can target things that might be immune to Charm effects.
And you might simply be tapped out of higher lever slots, so Web would be a useful fallback in this instance too.

On a Sorc I'd probably only want one or the other, due to the extreme limitations of their spell selections. But on a Wiz? Absolutely.

[Snig]

Trying to decide between web and invisible....

[KorvinStarmast]

Trying to decide between web and invisible.... Who is in your party? What do you want invisibility to achieve? Have you considered Blindness/Deafness instead?
FWIW, I think there are more cases where Web will be useful than invisibility until you get to a higher level.

[Frogreaver]

Yessir, playing an enchanting wizard.

Then I would take web. You get lots of spells known. There’s no other level 2 spell that’s as generally useful IMO.

That said invisibility is still a solid choice. In my experience there’s been much fewer opportunities where invisibility could be used. Our martials tend to be more hot it first ask questions later types.

[Telwar]

Hypnotic Pattern is useful if you can get a bunch of monsters without hitting allies. That's my war mage's usual lead-off spell if she wins initiative, and slow if she doesn't and the rogue dashes in.

I do use web frequently, though, especially when I think the targets are likely to make a Wish save but not a Dex save.

[Chronos]

Another factor is that they're different saves. Some things are better at some saves than others, so if you're facing enemies that you think are likely to have better Wis than Dex, then Web is better.

That said, "good Wis save" usually means "spellcaster", and "spellcaster" often means "has an easy way of starting fires", in which case Web just turns into a not-very-damaging damage spell.

[Gignere]

Another factor is that they're different saves. Some things are better at some saves than others, so if you're facing enemies that you think are likely to have better Wis than Dex, then Web is better.

That said, "good Wis save" usually means "spellcaster", and "spellcaster" often means "has an easy way of starting fires", in which case Web just turns into a not-very-damaging damage spell.

Web still wasted an action, and unless it’s an AoE the caster can only burn away a 5 foot square.

[Eldariel]

Web is also really good against brutes of various kinds. Otyughs, Shambling Mounds, etc. If you can get them, it tends to be pretty good against Dragons too, and many smart/outsidery bruisery enemies that tend to have good Wis and lowish Dex. While Hypnotic works in some cases too, Web does something even on a successful save (difficult terrain can buy you an extra turn as the opponent can't close in; or if you have knockback or can limit enemy movement or there's a choke, it can simply reproc each round) and it's a second level slot, which is pretty huge on level 5.

That said, the point on NPC casters is a good one; Web is not the solution there. I've had good experience with Earthen Grasp against NPC casters. They rarely have good Str-saves and it can just keep getting them even if they teleport out (denying themselves the chance to cast a good spell). It's true that by RAW Restrained doesn't bother their casting, but locking them in place with some damage is worth a fair bit too. That said, as a single target spell it's much more limited (in the same league as Suggestion, Phantasmal Force, Levitate, etc. - nice to have but not a top tier prep though if you have ways to force fails on a single target like Portent or Silvery Barbs, it gets better).

[Corran]

I'd take web, unless I wanted to get confusion and metamagic adept (careful) later on and unless the party does not have a cheap way to reposition enemies (eg repelling blast). If the latter though holds true, it might be worth considering getting Evard's black tentacles instead of web though.

[Snig]

I'd take web, unless I wanted to get confusion and metamagic adept (careful) later on and unless the party does not have a cheap way to reposition enemies (eg repelling blast). If the latter though holds true, it might be worth considering getting Evard's black tentacles instead of web though.

We're in a party with myself (Enchantment Wizard) a Knowledge Cleric, Light Cleric and Rogue. Going to be tough with no melee.

I was thinking that sleep would fill in as my control spell until I get hypnotic pattern at level 5. My campaign is kinda weird and wizard spells are a little restricted making each spell selection pretty important.

[Corran]

We're in a party with myself (Enchantment Wizard) a Knowledge Cleric, Light Cleric and Rogue. Going to be tough with no melee.

I was thinking that sleep would fill in as my control spell until I get hypnotic pattern at level 5. My campaign is kinda weird and wizard spells are a little restricted making each spell selection pretty important.
Well, if the clerics boost their concentration checks, you'll have enough spirit guardians later on to melt most melee foes. So, if I were to play the enchanter, I would look to:
1) Find some ways to deal or help my allies deal with ranged enemies.
2) Keep my wizard safe, so that melee enemies will instead focus on the clerics and slowly melt from spirit guardians.
3) Boost the clerics' tankiness.
4) Look at whatever synergies I can create.

For 1, something like fog cloud can be useful. Using it to deny one turn of archer fire is not good enough. But using it to make those archers abandon a very good position (eg shooting at you from a difficult to access balcony or whatever) is better. Especially if the battlefield is small enough to mean that them moving forces them close or into melee range of your clerics or rogues. Fog cloud can also be good at dropping it on your clerics while they are engaged with the enemies, assuming of course they are not planning on using the dodge action (which would be advisable lots of the time), cause this will not only block archer fire (DM ruling may vary) for your clerics, but also for you as you can keep positioning on the oter side of the fog cloud. The rogue in the meantime could go into the fog cloud and reck faces (attack, bonus action hide and move next to enemy who wil have to move on their turn -easy to do since your clerics can keep moving without fear of OA's, since you need to see an enemy in order to make an OA, followed by reaction sneack attack on said enemy). Just be careful to drop fog cloud after the cleric casts spirit guardians, cause they need to see who they'll exclude from being damaged by that spell. Heck, if your rogue ends up playing a swashbuckler (or alternatively if they get blind fighting or devil's sight with a feat), you can even drop a fog cloud on ranged enemies (or better yet, go for the darkness spell because it can be moved if cast on an object) and have the rogue go ham on them.

Do you know what races the other pc's will be playing? Or if the game will involve lots of dungeoncrawling? I am asking because I am thinking whether it would be useful to invest in a spell like dancing lights or unseen servant (carrying torches or whatever) for hurting more an enemy's chance of fighting you successfully from range.

2) Grab an early level mobility option so that you dont draw too many enemies near you, as you'll want them going for your cleric(s). Misrty step sounds perfect for this job, but you may also want to consider a phantom steed (as it can both keep you at a safe distance, or used to drop the swashbuckler/blind fighting/ devil sight rogue -wielding a stone with darkness cast on it - over to any ranged enemies or casters trying to keep their distance). Multiclassing one level of cleric (twilight especially, order secondarily) would be useful for access to armor and shields as well as sanctuary (anything that can help make it a bad idea for enemies to go after you; also, stuff that will help you stand your ground and use the enchanter's tricks if an enemy that you cannot -or do not want- to outrun did).

You dont have a party that will make the most of short rests, but I'd grab rope trick as well. Sometimes you just want to take your mini off the table, if for nothing else just to revert unfavourable targeting (eg fast melee enemies going after you instead of flocking around the cleric's spirit guardians like they should). Eventually add dimension door for either getting yourself away from enemies that should fight the clerics, or to get (yourself and the rogue) close to enemies that shouldn't be allowed to shoot weapon attacks or spells. Fly can also help your party suffer less the lack of good ranged attacks and also offer an out to you or an ally who would not want to continue attracting attention from melee enemies who would be worse off going after the clerics.


3) If the clerics are attacked by invisible enemies, drop a darkness/fog cloud on them to cancel the enemies' advatage (beware of blindsight, tremor sense and in the case of darkness true sight as well though). If they cannot dodge (eg because they were grappled), use web while they (or at least the one who concentrates on spirit guardians) are buffed by freedom of movement. Hmm, more defensive buffing would be great for the clerics, but I cannot think of anything better right now.


4) Synergies. This is not the best synergy you can pull off, but it worked very nicely for me not too long ago, so I am very excited about it and I'll propose it. With you and two clerics in the party (and with one of them being a light cleric who thus gets fireball), you've got a good amount of damage AoE potential. Two fireballs at tier 2, and later on two fireballs and one flame strike. All in one turn. If you can catch your enemies inside that radius, this is an opening round that could win you fights you might otherwise not be able to. But how do you catch enemies inside the blast. One way is to surprise them, while they are conveniently stacked close enough together. Unlikely, with two armor uses that will need every bit of armor they can get, especially since you dont get access to something like pass without a trace. The other way is to use a bait. Specifically the rogue, who has evasion. That's a lot of damage to joke about though, so advantage on the rogue's dex saves would be welcome. This can either come from them dodging (which they might want to do anyway, since rogues as bait is too risky a proposition if we are talking about enemies dangerous enough to warrant an opening round of two fireballs and one flame strike). Or it could be granted (ie the advantage on dex saves) from haste, which aside from advantage to dex saves it will grant the rogue a small AC bonus) and a chance at readying an attack for extra sneak attack damage during their off turn. If the rogue has blind fighting or devil's sight, becoming the bait is less risky of course, but this can reduce the number of targets of your AoE's, so be careful.

Another synergy. Another one I like but dont get to use often (almost never at all actually). It's not great, but it has some situational potential. Web something dangerous. Send the rogue inside the web with a freedom of movement spell buffing them. You do that if you want that enemy not reaching your clerics (eg because it can do enough damage to easily drop concentration on spirit guardians which is making work against numerous less dangerous enemies; especially if said enemies have magic resistant as for something like a banishment or polymorph not to have good chances of working). So while the clerics fight with the minions, the rogue exchanges hits somewhat favorably with the big threat caught in the web (assuming that enemy does not resist the opportunity your rogue is offering), while the rogue does threaten with a sneak attack OA if the enemy would choose to attempt destroying the web and moving away and towards you or the clerics. If things start looking rough for the rogue, he can bonus action hide while inside the web (lightly obscured area) with the skulker feat, and still remain next to the enemy to threaten with an OA if the enemy were to try and escape the web.

The group is light on single target damage. I'd grab magic missile (but not scorching ray, it gets outclassed by cantrips eventually and second slots are fewer and more valuable). The only source of good decent single target damage (especially at range) is the rogue, so the clerics should probably split some preparations bwteen stuff spells like heroism, lesser/greater restoration and the like, just to keep the rogue free of debuffs that can shut them down and dramatically lower the party's single target dpr. Silent/major image could be useful for helping the rogue with advantage from range whenever they cannot hide (or use steady aim, if it is allowed), but different DMs may have different interpretations about how such ilusion spells work.

You've got three prepared casters. Knowing what's up ahead will be more important than usual so that you'll know what spells to prepare. Even moreso since I'll go a bit light on rituals, so preparing spells will involve hard choices if completelly uninformed.


Thinking something like:
0) Chill touch
0) Minor illusion
0) Mold earth
0) Dancing lights (or something else, lots of other good choices here)
1) Find familiar
1) Shield
1) Silent image (/fog cloud)
1) Unseen servant (/comprehend languages if you dont exploit the servants for actions during combat and for lighting the way up ahead, while you want some added roleplaying value from the monsters you will charm)
1) Magic missile
1) Absorb elements
1) Silvery barbs
1) Mage armor (Tasha's hiddeous laughter if you can grab actual armor)
2) Darkness (/fog cloud)
2) Misty Step
2) Web
2) Rope trick (/suggestion if you cannot leverage rope trick to the maximum during combat; ie get in it asap, shoot from it and still get to enjoy total cover but for a brief moment)
3) Phantom Steed
3) Fly (/suggestion definitely if your DM rules it in a way that makes it powerful in your hands)
3) Fireball
3) Counterspell
4) Arcane eye
4) Polymorph
4) Dimension door
4) Charm monster (couple it with stealth for avoiding the disadvantage)
5) Scrying
5) Wall of force
5) Hold monster
5) Contact other plane

Hmm, another non fire non concentration decent range AoE would be a good option, both to differentiate the damage type but also pair it with web without burning it. Vitriolic sphere comes to mind. Maybe drop scrying for it, or something else, not sure.

Invisibility has synergy with hypnotic gaze, it can help with scouting, and it can help with targeting. So it's worth considering too.

Watery sphere (which I was reminded of recently in another thread) could also be decent for some mobile control, which can be useful when you want to have a say over which pc's the enemies go after (as is strongly the case in this party), also when you have AoE potential in 3 out of 4 characters. Not sure what to drop though to include it. Anyway, the choices above are just suggestions for you to think about and merge with what you think yourself as useful or enjoyable. So no point for me to overthink it.

[Samayu]

Just a mention that Web can have good synergy with Spirit Guardians (requires careful placement), while Hypnotic Pattern has negative synergy.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Besides Charm resistance / immunity being somehow not uncommon, mid to high tier creatures tend to have good WIS saves. Strangely enough, DEX is a great save to target, specially for controlling spells, because most creatures do not have very good DEX, like dragons. Because of this, I usually run with both Web and Hypnotic Pattern in my Wizards.

If you can’t decide, drop both and get Sleet Storm, heh.

[FabulousFizban]

They hit different saves, and you should try to be able to hit every save, so you can target a given enemy's weakness.