Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde: Help me make the Beast Barbarian work.

[aadder]

Hello everyone,

I'm trying really hard to make a character that's a take on the Jekyll and Hyde trope, and I really want to use the Beast Barbarian because I want something that really lets me get away with an unarmed character that can take a ton of hits.

The main problem I'm running into is that while I can make him strong as hell and take a beating, I feel like Beast Barbarians don't do all that much damage and I feel like he's not impressive at all when it comes to being a big, scary monster-man.

I'm really married to the Beast Barbarian because it has an aspect of transformation to it, like the trope suggests, but I feel like I just can't make it all that impressive without invoking a lot of multiclassing and creative rules interpretation that I'd rather not fuss with.

The build I have uses variant linage to start with the Skill Expert Feat, which I picked athletics for. Starting with 16 STR, training in athletics, and rage, he can very easily throw a huge bonus with advantage to athletics checks.

One level dip at level 6 into Fighter with the Superior Technique fighting style and Grappling Strike maneuver lets me grapple as a bonus action without spending a Feat on Tavern Brawler, and gives me another D6 to the athletics check, so I feel like in terms of physical power I'm all set.

I really have no idea how to make him actually kill things, though. The Claws for an extra attack are nice and getting rage damage is good, but I feel like I'm really under-performing compared to a monk or even an Unarmed Fighter in terms of damage output. It feels, for lack of a better word, emasculating for him to hit for D6's when a Fighter at level one can unarmed for D8.

Is there any way to make his unarmed damage better without rules-lawywering something that isn't strictly in the text? I am going to be playing with a new DM and I don't want to have to argue with them why Beast Claws match with Monk Unarmed Strike, for example.

Thanks in advance!

[Mastikator]

Longtooth shifter instead of custom lineage. It would take 2 bonus actions, so only on round 2 could you get both. But it would result in 4 attacks dealing 1d6+str+rage. If you choose to be a grappler you will do less direct damage.
Unfortunately most things that could add more damage to your attacks require concentration, so that's really it.

[stoutstien]

Hello everyone,

I'm trying really hard to make a character that's a take on the Jekyll and Hyde trope, and I really want to use the Beast Barbarian because I want something that really lets me get away with an unarmed character that can take a ton of hits.

The main problem I'm running into is that while I can make him strong as hell and take a beating, I feel like Beast Barbarians don't do all that much damage and I feel like he's not impressive at all when it comes to being a big, scary monster-man.

I'm really married to the Beast Barbarian because it has an aspect of transformation to it, like the trope suggests, but I feel like I just can't make it all that impressive without invoking a lot of multiclassing and creative rules interpretation that I'd rather not fuss with.

The build I have uses variant linage to start with the Skill Expert Feat, which I picked athletics for. Starting with 16 STR, training in athletics, and rage, he can very easily throw a huge bonus with advantage to athletics checks.

One level dip at level 6 into Fighter with the Superior Technique fighting style and Grappling Strike maneuver lets me grapple as a bonus action without spending a Feat on Tavern Brawler, and gives me another D6 to the athletics check, so I feel like in terms of physical power I'm all set.

I really have no idea how to make him actually kill things, though. The Claws for an extra attack are nice and getting rage damage is good, but I feel like I'm really under-performing compared to a monk or even an Unarmed Fighter in terms of damage output. It feels, for lack of a better word, emasculating for him to hit for D6's when a Fighter at level one can unarmed for D8.

Is there any way to make his unarmed damage better without rules-lawywering something that isn't strictly in the text? I am going to be playing with a new DM and I don't want to have to argue with them why Beast Claws match with Monk Unarmed Strike, for example.

Thanks in advance!

Beast's claw option is actually fairly solid from a damage perspective. Don't discount volume and action economy. Since you don't need to use a bonus action for your additional attacks it really opens up different directions you can take compared to the fighter or monk.

If you are really wanting to add more damage then duelist works if you have a shield in one hand. The claws aren't unarmed attacks. They are weapons so that might be what you are missing.

[aadder]

If you are really wanting to add more damage then duelist works if you have a shield in one hand. The claws aren't unarmed attacks. They are weapons so that might be what you are missing.

Oh, oh that's fantastic lol.

Yeah the wording technically makes them a single one-handed weapon so I guess that works; that's just like a solid +6 damage if you're making 3 attacks a turn.

Aren't I "technically" carryign two of them though, because both hands become a claw?

Like the wording is slightly iffy.

[Mastikator]

May need to talk to your DM for about Duelist and Claws. Duelist requires that you are wielding a weapon in one hand. The claws aren't held, they are your hands.
Duelist: "When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons"
Claws: "Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty."

Edit- the hand only transforms if it is empty. So holding a shield prevents transformation. But also you are not wielding a weapon in your other hand, it's hyper pedantic. DM mileage may vary. (I'd allow it, but I know a DM who would need convincing)

[stoutstien]

Oh, oh that's fantastic lol.

Yeah the wording technically makes them a single one-handed weapon so I guess that works; that's just like a solid +6 damage if you're making 3 attacks a turn.

Aren't I "technically" carryign two of them though, because both hands become a claw?

Like the wording is slightly iffy.

It borderline. They only shift if your hand is empty and only count as weapons if they remain empty. The held clause is the only sticking point but it's mild compared to the thrown weapon + duelist question and it's not such to jump up out of normal bounds

They'd probably be glad it's not another GWM/PaM barb.

*Also don't discount accuracy when you are looking at attack damage values. Barbs (especially shield wielding ones) have very high %to hit so they get a lot out of static damage riders.

[RogueJK]

Longtooth shifter instead of custom lineage. It would take 2 bonus actions, so only on round 2 could you get both. But it would result in 4 attacks dealing 1d6+str+rage.

This is the way.

Beast Barbarians generally go for volume of attacks over high damage per attack. Similar to a Monk. Longtooth Shifter lets you weaponize your Bonus Action for yet another attack.

And don't forget that you can swap any of your Attack Action attacks for a Grapple or Shove. So you can do something like:

Claw Attack (Grapple)
Claw Attack (Shove Prone)
Additional Claw Attack (At Advantage)
BA Bite Attack (At Advantage)

Then continue to hold them Prone for Advantage on all four of your attacks in subsequent turns, without having to go Reckless, plus all their attacks will be at Disadvantage. All your ally's melee attacks will be at Advantage too, which is especially handy if you have a melee Rogue or GWM Fighter/Paladin in the party. You can also combo with your spellcaster teammates to drag them into/through battlefield hazard spells like Spike Growth/Moonbeam/Spirit Guardians/Create Bonfire/Wall of Fire/etc. for additional damage inflicted by just your movement.

As pointed out, the main downside is that your Shifter Bite doesn't come online until your 2nd round, since both Rage and Bite require Bonus Actions to activate. But you can make a Bite attack on the same turn you activate it, so you're not giving up much.

Longtooth Shifter also allows you to make your Bite attacks with your normal Attack Action while Shifted. You won't get the Claw's additional attack, but it would give you an option to continue making attacks while your hands are full with a shield and a grappled enemy, or two grappled enemies and no shield.

Keep in mind that thanks to your Rage damage resistance, Shifter's Temp HP are effectively doubled against B/P/S damage.

You'll want to have access to a backup melee weapon, though. You won't be able to Rage and/or Shift in every combat, especially at early levels. So there will be combats where you're just a standard melee fighter, using something like a longsword and shield, without your claws or bite.



The build I have uses variant linage to start with the Skill Expert Feat, which I picked athletics for. Starting with 16 STR, training in athletics, and rage, he can very easily throw a huge bonus with advantage to athletics checks.

The Longtooth Shifter's Temp HP and additional Bonus Action attacks will be worth more to you than Expertise in Athletics at Level 1. Rage already gives you Advantage on Athletics checks, which will be enough until Level 4. You can take Skill Expert at Level 4 instead.



One level dip at level 6 into Fighter with the Superior Technique fighting style and Grappling Strike maneuver lets me grapple as a bonus action without spending a Feat on Tavern Brawler

Only once per Short Rest. With Longtooth Shifter, you'll have an extra BA attack (which can effectively be an extra chance to grapple each turn) more often than that. So I'd skip the Fighter dip altogether, or else go with Dueling if your DM agrees that it would apply to your claw attacks.

If you do decide to keep the Fighter dip, I wouldn't take it until after Barbarian 6. This will allow for your natural weapon attacks to bypass nonmagical damage resistance, and this starts to become an increasing issue as you get into Tier 2, so you don't want to delay that.


Another option to consider is to take Beast Barbarian to 6, and then switch to Battlemaster Fighter for 4+ levels. While continuing as a Barbarian eventually gets you additional rages and slight increase to your Rage damage, upper level Barbarian abilities are a bit lackluster, especially Brutal Critical with your mere d6 damage dice. You'll likely get more mileage out of stuff like Battlemaster Maneuvers and Action Surge (letting you make up to 7x attacks in a turn, or a Grapple+Prone+5x Attacks).

Something like this:
Longtooth Shifter
Beast Barbarian 6 -> Battlemaster Fighter X, or Beast Barbarian 6 -> Battlemaster Fighter 4 -> Barbarian X
STR 15+2
DEX 14
CON 15+1
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 8
Dueling or Defense fighting style
ASIs: Skill Expert (18 STR, Athletics Expertise) at Barbarian 4, then 20 STR at Fighter 4, 18 CON at Fighter 6 or Barbarian 8, 20 CON at Fighter 8 or Barbarian 12

[aadder]

This is the way.

Beast Barbarians generally go for volume of attacks over high damage per attack. Similar to a Monk. Longtooth Shifter lets you weaponize your Bonus Action for yet another attack.

And don't forget that you can swap any of your Attack Action attacks for a Grapple or Shove. So you can do something like:

Claw Attack (Grapple)
Claw Attack (Shove Prone)
Additional Claw Attack (At Advantage)
BA Bite Attack (At Advantage)

Then continue to hold them Prone for Advantage on all four of your attacks in subsequent turns, without having to go Reckless, plus all their attacks will be at Disadvantage. All your ally's melee attacks will be at Advantage too, which is especially handy if you have a melee Rogue or GWM Fighter/Paladin in the party. You can also combo with your spellcaster teammates to drag them into/through battlefield hazard spells like Spike Growth/Moonbeam/Spirit Guardians/Create Bonfire/Wall of Fire/etc. for additional damage inflicted by just your movement.

This is such a good build and I hate that I'm married to my terrible idea for high INT instead lol

I guess I asked for good builds and I got what I asked for.

Thinking about dumping the whole character now that I can't do this lol

[Kurt Kurageous]

I'm not sure how the Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde makes a good party member who could play nice with others. But who cares about that?

That said, this is a fascinating and horrifying build epitomizing bloodlust in a way no big dude with a big axe barbarian really can. Bravo! Did anyone mention the extended critical range of Champion at Fighter 3? Two attacks at advantage OR four attacks without advantage makes crits about 33% likely each and every round. Add reckless on four attacks and the crit chance goes over 50% (57%)

I just don't 'feel' a Battlemaster in a 'Cuisinart' build. It ain't subtle, ya know what I mean?

[stoutstien]

This is such a good build and I hate that I'm married to my terrible idea for high INT instead lol

I guess I asked for good builds and I got what I asked for.

Thinking about dumping the whole character now that I can't do this lol

It really is an unfulfilled trope in 5e. I made an artificer subclass somewhere for a player I could see if I can dig it up

[RogueJK]

This is such a good build and I hate that I'm married to my terrible idea for high INT instead lol

Yeah, Barbarians are generally fairly MAD already, needing a high STR and CON and at least a moderate DEX since they're limited to medium armor. So cramming in a high INT on a Barbarian is tougher.

But if you're willing to give up some of your combat effectiveness, you can swap around the point buy to have a moderately high INT, if that's what you're wanting. Something like:
STR 14+2
DEX 14
CON 13+1
INT 14
WIS 9
CHA 8

Or if you're willing to sacrifice your Shifter bite attack and Temp HP, you could go with a Tortle Barbarian and dump DEX without harming your AC:
STR 15+2
DEX 10
CON 15+1
INT 14
WIS 8
CHA 8


But there's another alternative... Fighters are less MAD, since they can wear Heavy Armor, and being able to dump DEX would allow you to beef up your INT without sacrificing STR or CON. So a good alternative for a Jekyl-and-Hyde build would be a Rune Knight Fighter. Rather than carving runes, perhaps you swig back alchemical concoctions to grow into a hulking Large man-thing and develop strange magical abilities. Like this:

Longtooth Shifter Rune Knight Fighter
STR 14+2
DEX 8
CON 15+1
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 8
Racial Skill: Athletics
Fighter Skills: Perception, History
Background Skills: Investigation, Medicine
Background Tool Proficiency: Alchemist Supplies
Fighting Style: Unarmed
ASIs: Skill Expert (17 STR, Athletics Expertise, Arcana Proficiency) at 4, Crusher (18 STR) at 6, 18 CON at 8, 20 STR at 12

You don't need a weapon or shield, so you always have two hands free for Grappling/Shoving, and your unarmed strikes are going 1d8+STR. Unarmed Fighting Style would even boost the damage of your Shifter Bite attack to 1d8, since it's an unarmed strike too... You'd still have 3x attacks per turn when Shifted starting at Fighter 5, which then becomes 4x attack at Fighter 11. And you can Action Surge to boost that to 5x/7x. And Giant's Might lets you be an even more effective grappler thanks to becoming Large sized and having Advantage on STR checks, plus also gives you a +1d6 damage boost to one unarmed strike hit per turn.

Then you'll just have to work with your DM to find a way to overcome the fact that your unarmed strikes (even your BA shifter bite) are non-magical. There are a few magic items to deal with that, like the Eldritch Claw tattoo, or they can homebrew you something.

[Unoriginal]

The main problem I'm running into is that while I can make him strong as hell and take a beating, I feel like Beast Barbarians don't do all that much damage and I feel like he's not impressive at all when it comes to being a big, scary monster-man.

I'm really married to the Beast Barbarian because it has an aspect of transformation to it, like the trope suggests, but I feel like I just can't make it all that impressive without invoking a lot of multiclassing and creative rules interpretation that I'd rather not fuss with.
[...]

I really have no idea how to make him actually kill things, though. The Claws for an extra attack are nice and getting rage damage is good, but I feel like I'm really under-performing compared to a monk or even an Unarmed Fighter in terms of damage output. It feels, for lack of a better word, emasculating for him to hit for D6's when a Fighter at level one can unarmed for D8.


At lvl 5:

Monk with 16 DEX, unarmed: three attacks (using bonus action, but not ki), 1d6+3 per hit. Average damage if all hit: 19.5.

Fighter with 16 STR and Unarmed fighting style: two attacks, 1d8+3 per hit. Average damage if all hit: 15.

Beast Barbarian with 16 STR using Claws: three attacks, 1d6+5 per hit. Average damage if all hit: 25.5.

I'm not sure how the Beast Barbarian can be said to be underperforming here.

Not to mention that with Reckless Attack, the Beast Barbarian is *far* more likely to land all of their attacks than the other two.


This is such a good build and I hate that I'm married to my terrible idea for high INT instead lol


If you want high INT to matter and still wish a Fighter multiclass, I strongly suggest investing 3 levels in Psi Warrior.

It will make your Beast Barbarian do more damage, tank damage better and has great options to move things and people.

Plus since a lot of the Psi Warrior's perks are tied to the proficiency bonus, you don't suffer much from the multiclassing.

[aadder]

I'm not sure how the Dr. Jekyl/Mr. Hyde makes a good party member who could play nice with others. But who cares about that?

So I'm a moron.

Let's just get that out of the way.

But like, my goal was to make a Chaotic Evil character that plays nice with the party, and this was my solution.

Evil because he's self-interested and on a sole quest to find a cure, even if he has to kill people because ultimately getting rid of his monster side will save MORE lives, and Chaotic because he's literally an evil monster man riding back-seat to a doctor.

High, high intellect means he would have a logical reason not to just go murder-hobo on NPCs or PC's; how does killing randos help him un-Hyde? It doesnt' so he wouldnt' do it.

And like obviously, hand-shake OoC agreement with DM and other PC's that I am NOT going to eat people or be a **** or sabotage the party, because that's just rude.

[aadder]

Yeah, Barbarians are generally fairly MAD already, needing a high STR and CON and at least a moderate DEX since they're limited to medium armor. So cramming in a high INT on a Barbarian is tougher.

So like, here's my dumb, dumb build, starting with Variant Lineage:

STR 14 +2
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 15 +1
WIS 8
CHA 8

With Sage background and 2 extra skills from Skill Expert and Variant, he can start with Athletics (expertise), Religion, Arcana, History, Investigation, an Nature, giving him like a monster suite of skill checks off of his 2 high stats.

This way he gets to be relevant outside of combat, which is something Barbarians never get to do.

He can walk around in fine clothes, no armor and no weapons and just kinda walk up to someone and start beating their face-in, so he makes a really good character wherein you can't just rush a boss.

Admittedly it's SUPER non-competitive with other Barbarians, but it felt like a built nobody has ever done before and would be fun to have NPCs, and even PC's, underestimating him or having no idea what he's up to.

[Unoriginal]

So like, here's my dumb, dumb build, starting with Variant Lineage:

STR 14 +2
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 15 +1
WIS 8
CHA 8

With Sage background and 2 extra skills from Skill Expert and Variant, he can start with Athletics (expertise), Religion, Arcana, History, Investigation, an Nature, giving him like a monster suite of skill checks off of his 2 high stats.

This way he gets to be relevant outside of combat, which is something Barbarians never get to do.

He can walk around in fine clothes, no armor and no weapons and just kinda walk up to someone and start beating their face-in, so he makes a really good character wherein you can't just rush a boss.

Admittedly it's SUPER non-competitive with other Barbarians, but it felt like a built nobody has ever done before and would be fun to have NPCs, and even PC's, underestimating him or having no idea what he's up to.

Yeah, with that build, I would strongly recommend going Psi Warrior Fighter ASAP after getting the Extra Attack on Barbarian lvl 5.

[CTurbo]

I have 3 different ideas


1) Custom Lineage Beast Barb. Put the +2 in Str and take the Slasher feat for an addition +1 Str.

You'll start at level 1 with 18 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 8 Wis, 8 Cha. 12 Int is certainly smarter than average.

Either take a single level of Fighter for the Two Weapon Fighting Style or grab the Fighting Initiate feat at level 4 to get it. That way you're making 4 attacks per round with your claws and can add your Str + rage damage to all 4 attacks.


OR


2) Custom Lineage Beast Barb. Put the +2 in Dex and take the Slasher feat for an additional +1 Dex.

You'll start level 1 with 12 Str, 18 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 14 Wis, 8 Cha. This time you're "wise" instead of book smart.

Grab 1 level of Monk and you gain a reliable Bonus Action attack and can use Dex for all attacks. Monk and Barb are almost completely contrast in how they operate. Seems very Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde to me.


OR


3) Standard Human Beast Barb.

You'll start with 16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 15 Int, 10 Wis, 9 Cha

You start level 1 was Barb for medium armor and Con saves, but then you grab a level of Wizard. You'll bump Str to 18 at first opportunity, and then grab Fey Touched which also rounds Int out to 16. Maybe even take more Wiz levels later on since the Barbarian class doesn't really get a lot stronger for most of the 2nd-3rd tiers. When you're raging, you're an out of control monster. When you're not, you're a calm "normal" wizard with a spell book. You'll have plenty of cantrips and rituals and a few lowere spells.

[Mastikator]

This is such a good build and I hate that I'm married to my terrible idea for high INT instead lol

I guess I asked for good builds and I got what I asked for.

Thinking about dumping the whole character now that I can't do this lol

Int doesn't need to be terribly high, just not dumped. IMO try for 12 or 14 wisdom and grab medicine proficiency. You may even consider the Healer feat, it's actually really good and lets you be a non-magical doctor outside of combat.

[aadder]

I
3) Standard Human Beast Barb.

You'll start with 16 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con, 15 Int, 10 Wis, 9 Cha

You start level 1 was Barb for medium armor and Con saves, but then you grab a level of Wizard. You'll bump Str to 18 at first opportunity, and then grab Fey Touched which also rounds Int out to 16. Maybe even take more Wiz levels later on since the Barbarian class doesn't really get a lot stronger for most of the 2nd-3rd tiers. When you're raging, you're an out of control monster. When you're not, you're a calm "normal" wizard with a spell book. You'll have plenty of cantrips and rituals and a few lowere spells.

This is pretty close to the stat spread I had, but with 14 Dex instead of 12 and 15 Int instead of 16.

I was thinking Artificer or Psi Warrior instead of Wizard, just because those classes' abilities sort of transfer and can be used by him when he's raging, infusions for example, but any Wizard stuff I had would be completely useless if he's in beast mode.

[aadder]

Int doesn't need to be terribly high, just not dumped. IMO try for 12 or 14 wisdom and grab medicine proficiency. You may even consider the Healer feat, it's actually really good and lets you be a non-magical doctor outside of combat.

Eh, I mean yes and no.

I consider 16 to be the point at which a character is actually like impressively good at something, given that pretty much all PC's start with 16 in the stats they're focused in.

12 Int is higher than a regular commoner but you wouldn't consider them a genius or some sort of banana-pants mad doctor.

[Kurt Kurageous]

So I'm a moron.

Let's just get that out of the way.

But like, my goal was to make a Chaotic Evil character that plays nice with the party, and this was my solution.

Evil because he's self-interested and on a sole quest to find a cure, even if he has to kill people because ultimately getting rid of his monster side will save MORE lives, and Chaotic because he's literally an evil monster man riding back-seat to a doctor.

High, high intellect means he would have a logical reason not to just go murder-hobo on NPCs or PC's; how does killing randos help him un-Hyde? It doesnt' so he wouldnt' do it.

And like obviously, hand-shake OoC agreement with DM and other PC's that I am NOT going to eat people or be a **** or sabotage the party, because that's just rude.

I like the concept a lot, actually. You got this guy with his own personal motivators working with a party with other motivations just using him guy as a blunt (or sharp, if slashing:amused:) instrument who will terrify potential enemies and rip up actual enemies. Put a collar and chain on him and the message is loud and clear.

He's not evil IMO, he's just sick. Evil wishes evil done unto others, and he's just trying to undo what has been done to him. That's not evil, that's tragic. And thus an awesome PC concept in the right setting.

[Unoriginal]

I like the concept a lot, actually. You got this guy with his own personal motivators working with a party with other motivations just using him guy as a blunt (or sharp, if slashing:amused:) instrument who will terrify potential enemies and rip up actual enemies. Put a collar and chain on him and the message is loud and clear.

He's not evil IMO, he's just sick. Evil wishes evil done unto others, and he's just trying to undo what has been done to him. That's not evil, that's tragic. And thus an awesome PC concept in the right setting.

"I'll kill people to find the cure because the cure will save more people" is a classic evil motivation.

Especially when here it's "I'll kill people to find the cure because I will stop killing people once I'm cured'". Which is completely circular logic.

And doubly so that there is nothing actually compelling them to kill.

It fits the version of Hyde from the book, though.

[CTurbo]

This is pretty close to the stat spread I had, but with 14 Dex instead of 12 and 15 Int instead of 16.

I was thinking Artificer or Psi Warrior instead of Wizard, just because those classes' abilities sort of transfer and can be used by him when he's raging, infusions for example, but any Wizard stuff I had would be completely useless if he's in beast mode.

I think the fact that he wouldn't be able to use any Wizard stuff while raging fits the Jekyll/Hyde theme pretty well.

An 8th level Barbarian has anywhere from zero to barely any utility.
An 8th level Barbarian that takes 1 Wizard level suddenly has a ton of utility.

An 18th level Barbarian is only going to be marginally stronger in combat than an 8th level Barbarian(minus hit points of course). That's why, IMO, the Barbarian class is probably the easiest to deviate from without really feeling like you're missing out on much.

You're not always going to be raging.


I've thought about this concept on and off over the years because I think it would be fun and I always go back to the Monk/Barb or the Wiz/Barb. The Wiz/Barb would literally be like playing 2 different characters at once especially if you can add more Wiz levels. I'd either take 5 straight Barb levels for 2nd attack and then alternate Wiz/Barb levels from there, or go ahead and snag 1 Wiz level early like at level 2, and then go straight to Barb 5 or 6 before taking the 2nd Wiz level.



I like the flavor of the Beast Barb and I want to play one, but I don't know how it would play when not raging. You'd need to still carry around a weapon. Your typical GWM or PAM Barb still plays the same when not raging, but the Beast Barb can't.

[Gignere]

I think the fact that he wouldn't be able to use any Wizard stuff while raging fits the Jekyll/Hyde theme pretty well.

An 8th level Barbarian has anywhere from zero to barely any utility.
An 8th level Barbarian that takes 1 Wizard level suddenly has a ton of utility.

An 18th level Barbarian is only going to be marginally stronger in combat than an 8th level Barbarian(minus hit points of course). That's why, IMO, the Barbarian class is probably the easiest to deviate from without really feeling like you're missing out on much.

You're not always going to be raging.


I've thought about this concept on and off over the years because I think it would be fun and I always go back to the Monk/Barb or the Wiz/Barb. The Wiz/Barb would literally be like playing 2 different characters at once especially if you can add more Wiz levels. I'd either take 5 straight Barb levels for 2nd attack and then alternate Wiz/Barb levels from there, or go ahead and snag 1 Wiz level early like at level 2, and then go straight to Barb 5 or 6 before taking the 2nd Wiz level.



I like the flavor of the Beast Barb and I want to play one, but I don't know how it would play when not raging. You'd need to still carry around a weapon. Your typical GWM or PAM Barb still plays the same when not raging, but the Beast Barb can't.

Obviously should be a Barb / Alchemist to fit the literature.

[stoutstien]

Obviously should be a Barb / Alchemist to fit the literature.

The artificer adept could work as well with less investment especially if you pick up some other intelligence based spells

[RogueJK]

Obviously should be a Barb / Alchemist to fit the literature.

We could make that work... It's not going to optimal, but it'd be a viable Jekyl/Hyde character (at least in Tiers 1 and 2; Tiers 3 and 4 will get pretty iffy).

Longtooth Shifter Artificer 1 -> Beast Barbarian 6 -> Alchemist Artificer X
STR 13+1
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14+2
WIS 9
CHA 8
Artificer Tool Proficiencies: Tinkers Tool, Thieves Tools, Alchemist Supplies,
Background Tool Proficiencies: Poisoner's Kit, Herbalism Kit
Alchemist Tool Proficiency: Glassblower's Supplies
Racial Skill Proficiency: Athletics
Artificer Skill Proficiencies: Arcana, Medicine
Background Skill Proficiencies: History, Investigation
ASIs: 16 STR at Barbarian 4, 18 INT at Artificer 4, 18 STR at Artificer 8
Wear Medium Armor and carry a Shield, but leave your hand free for casting or Beast Claw attacks.

When you're Raging and Shifted in melee combat as Mr. Hyde, your middling STR is compensated for by Reckless Attack, Advantage on STR checks, your two additional attacks (extra claw and BA bite), and your Rage damage bonus. Advantage on attack rolls and STR checks is roughly equivalent to +5, and Rage damage bonus is another +2 to damage, so your STR for those purposes while Raging is effectively equivalent to 24/18 instead of just 14. And four claw/bite attacks dealing 1d6+4 x4 is even a bit better than a 18 STR melee character with two Greatsword attacks dealing 2d6+4 x2: Average 30 damage in a round vs. 22 damage, provided all attacks hit.

When you're not Raging in combat and fighting at range as the more cowardly Dr. Jekyl, you have ranged Artificer cantrips to use, plus some Artificer combat spells.

Out of combat, you have six tool proficiencies, along with a bunch of INT skills that you can boost further with your Guidance cantrip. Plus you have access to Artificer ritual and utility spells.

And stuff like your cantrip damage and your Shifts per day all scale based on character level, not class level.

[aadder]

He's not evil IMO, he's just sick. Evil wishes evil done unto others, and he's just trying to undo what has been done to him. That's not evil, that's tragic. And thus an awesome PC concept in the right setting.




"I'll kill people to find the cure because the cure will save more people" is a classic evil motivation.

Especially when here it's "I'll kill people to find the cure because I will stop killing people once I'm cured'". Which is completely circular logic.

I like to think it's a bit of both lol; he is absolutely evil but in a way that's at least sort-of productive and under control.

I've heard the Punisher referred to not as an anti-hero, but as an anti-villain, and that's sort of the idea in that this is NOT someone you should like, but is interesting and not necessarily the antagonist.

[aadder]

We could make that work... It's not going to optimal, but it'd be a viable Jekyl/Hyde character (at least in Tiers 1 and 2; Tiers 3 and 4 will get pretty iffy).

Longtooth Shifter Artificer 1 -> Beast Barbarian 6 -> Alchemist Artificer X
STR 13+1
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14+2
WIS 9
CHA 8
When you're Raging and Shifted in melee combat as Mr. Hyde, your middling STR is compensated for by Reckless Attack, Advantage on STR checks, your two additional attacks (extra claw and BA bite), and your Rage damage bonus. Advantage on attack rolls and STR checks is roughly equivalent to +5, and Rage damage bonus is another +2 to damage, so your STR for those purposes while Raging is effectively equivalent to 24/18 instead of just 14. And four claw/bite attacks dealing 1d6+4 x4 is even a bit better than a 18 STR melee character with two Greatsword attacks dealing 2d6+4 x2: Average 30 damage in a round vs. 22 damage, provided all attacks hit.



I DO like this, and I think the only reason I'm not immediately going to jump on it is that I don' have a physical book with the Longtooth shifter rules, and the rules for shifting attribute bonuses on character generation is also in a book I don't have.

I'm not crazy about the Str of 14 but you do make a good case for it.

In either case I do like Artificer as an option becasue it's more tinker-y than a wizard.

[aadder]

An 18th level Barbarian is only going to be marginally stronger in combat than an 8th level Barbarian(minus hit points of course). That's why, IMO, the Barbarian class is probably the easiest to deviate from without really feeling like you're missing out on much.


I like the flavor of the Beast Barb and I want to play one, but I don't know how it would play when not raging. You'd need to still carry around a weapon. Your typical GWM or PAM Barb still plays the same when not raging, but the Beast Barb can't.

Yeah I don't WANT a new edition of DnD, but the fact that Barbarians basically dont' scale at all past like level 8 is a real problem for me. It feels like I'd only be levelling to get more Rages and Rage damage but that's such a tall order.

Out of Rage my plan was for him to use throwing axes or otherwise just kinda... be bad at fighting.

Awful for the team's competitiveness, but very in-character.

[RogueJK]

I like the flavor of the Beast Barb and I want to play one, but I don't know how it would play when not raging. You'd need to still carry around a weapon.

There are ways to get around that.

For example, the Jekyl/Hyde Barbtificer I posted doesn't need a weapon when not Raging, since they have their INT-based cantrips to use.

And with a standard Beast Barbarian, there are a number of races with 1d6 claw/bite/horn natural weapons, so if you make a Tortle/Lizardfolk/Tabaxi/Minotaur/etc. Beast Barbarian, all you'd be giving up when not raging is the additional Beast Claw attack. (But you'd want to work with your DM to find a means to make your non-Rage natural weapons magical, with the simplest being for them to simply allow the Beast Barbarian's Level 6 resistance bypass to apply to all natural weapons, not just the ones gained from Form of the Beast during Rage.) Then you'd only need to carry around a ranged weapon, which a Beast Barbarian would need access to anyway...


I DO like this, and I think the only reason I'm not immediately going to jump on it is that I don' have a physical book with the Longtooth shifter rules, and the rules for shifting attribute bonuses on character generation is also in a book I don't have.

If you have the book containing Custom Lineage like you used in your original build concept, then you have the book for shifting attribute bonuses...

But regardless, you can do that same build using Custom Lineage, doing something like this:
STR 13
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14+2
WIS 9
CHA 8
And taking a feat like Skill Expert for 14 STR, Athletics Expertise, and an additional Skill Proficiency at Level 1.

Or you can even do it using Variant Human from the PHB:
STR 13+1
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14+1
WIS 9
CHA 8
Taking Skill Expert (16 INT, Athletics Expertise, +1 Skill Prof) as your Level 1 feat.

You won't have the Longtooth Shifter's BA bite attack with either of these (which hurts since that's giving up ~25% of your damage output in several combats per day), but everything else on the Jekyl/Hyde Barbtificer works exactly the same.

[aadder]

But regardless, you can do that same build using Custom Lineage, doing something like this:
STR 13
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14+2
WIS 9
CHA 8
And taking a feat like Skill Expert for 14 STR, Athletics Expertise, and an additional Skill Proficiency at Level 1.


You won't have the Longtooth Shifter's BA bite attack with either of these (which hurts since that's giving up ~25% of your damage output in several combats per day), but everything else on the Jekyl/Hyde Barbtificer works exactly the same.

I think this is more or less what i'm going for, yeah.

I think it really sucks how critical to damage the Longtooth shifter is, whereas the Custom Lineage is so critical to being a giant, dilletante skill-monkey, and I'm trying to hit both lol.

In either case I just hope I keep my enthusaism for playing; I've been hyper-fixating but it's waning a little bit now.

[aadder]

Feel kind of sad about it because he's very much a guy who's going to be a non-com in his human form which means the model will be kind of boring and he's not like a dashing, good-guy hero lol.

But I always ruin those by obsessing.

And yet here I am, obsessing over this too lol.

[stoutstien]

Feel kind of sad about it because he's very much a guy who's going to be a non-com in his human form which means the model will be kind of boring and he's not like a dashing, good-guy hero lol.

But I always ruin those by obsessing.

And yet here I am, obsessing over this too lol.

What does your GM have to say? Remember nothing is obligatory so they might be able to work with you to get something closer to what you envision without a bunch of hoops and digging.

[Unoriginal]

I think this is more or less what i'm going for, yeah.

I think it really sucks how critical to damage the Longtooth shifter is, whereas the Custom Lineage is so critical to being a giant, dilletante skill-monkey, and I'm trying to hit both lol.

In either case I just hope I keep my enthusaism for playing; I've been hyper-fixating but it's waning a little bit now.

Being a Shifter really isn't critical to damage.

I played a Beast Barbarian with Skill Expert for an one-shot, and while his stats were kinda high for a lvl 3 (but not so high a lvl 4 couldn't have them with point buy), but the one time I used the Claws, my Barbarian and the Warlock tore two Drechts apart despite the Drechts getting a surprise round to maul us.

[kazaryu]

This is such a good build and I hate that I'm married to my terrible idea for high INT instead lol

I guess I asked for good builds and I got what I asked for.

Thinking about dumping the whole character now that I can't do this lol

you don't necessarily need a high int to effectively roleplay Dr jeckyl. even if your in is only a +1, you can take proficiency in...idk, alchemy? something like that. and remember, even a 12 or 14 int is still above average'.

[aadder]

What does your GM have to say? Remember nothing is obligatory so they might be able to work with you to get something closer to what you envision without a bunch of hoops and digging.

Oh I don't have a GM.

I never get to play.

I'm just stuck in a rut of like "This character is so cool in my head but making a model and rules for him sucks lol"

I can't seem to make the model work on Heroforge and I can't make the rules balance how I want because Shifter seems like the lynchpin to doing damage which I DON'T want to play bcause 1) no book and 2) I hate the idea of 2 turns to shift fully.

[aadder]

Being a Shifter really isn't critical to damage.

I played a Beast Barbarian with Skill Expert for an one-shot, and while his stats were kinda high for a lvl 3 (but not so high a lvl 4 couldn't have them with point buy), but the one time I used the Claws, my Barbarian and the Warlock tore two Drechts apart despite the Drechts getting a surprise round to maul us.

It's not critical but it sure does feel like it adds a lot of oomph, you know.

Like it's frankly kinda nuts how well that just tacks on free damage every turn; i can't think of another race that just does that for free.

[stoutstien]

Oh I don't have a GM.

I never get to play.

I'm just stuck in a rut of like "This character is so cool in my head but making a model and rules for him sucks lol"

I can't seem to make the model work on Heroforge and I can't make the rules balance how I want because Shifter seems like the lynchpin to doing damage which I DON'T want to play bcause 1) no book and 2) I hate the idea of 2 turns to shift fully.

Toss a PM with availability. I have 3 seats opening soon over 2 tables.

[MadMusketeer]

There's always taking the easy way out - just play a Moon Druid and flavor Wild Shape as your transformation. Boom, done. As a Druid, you can probably fit a decently high Int into your stat spread, even if you don't get to use it, you can have the fantasy of playing almost a completely different character out Wild Shape, and you can be a doctor (healing spells, medicine proficiency). It's not anywhere near as interesting as the other options suggested in this thread, but it should do fine.