How many XPs for getting past a pretty straightforward obstacle? [The bridge is out]

[Jay R]

In my next game, the party of 6th levels will have a heavy rain occur at night. They will have to slog beside a muddy road for awhile.

Not long after, the road approaches a river. The bridge is gone; they will see the anchoring posts where it stood. A few people are standing around trying to decide what to do. There are three humans, a couple of centaurs, and a family of halflings, with a cart pulled by a large dog.

The river is swollen from the rains, and rushing quickly. A good swimmer could swim it, but nobody could get a cart across it. Swim check DC 15 to get across safely without a backpack, and a DC 20 with one.

The river is down in a narrow ravine, and fills it from side to side, maybe 10 feet lower than the top. Climbing up the muddy slope will take a DEX roll. The centaurs are more concerned about that than about the swim.

How many xps should they earn for crossing it, and how many for helping the others get across?

If it matters, the party comprises a Wizard (enchanter), a Druid, a Rogue, a gnome Bard, and a halfling Ranger, with an allied 5th level Fighter, and a cohort 4th level Cleric. They have two dogs, a cheetah, and a raven. The Ranger can fly once per day. I think the wizard has the fly spell, but doesn’t usually memorize it.

I assume that crossing it is trivial, but helping the halflings get across with their cart will be difficult. In fact, that's why the halfling's cart is there.

And should it matter how they solve it? In fact, there is a ford several miles downstream. If they go exploring, it’s a pretty easy obstacle to get past.

[Saintheart]

I'd call it a moderate challenge in the sense that it was a combat encounter it'd consume about 20% of party resources, meaning it should give the same XP as an EL equal to the party's ECL. Head over to the d20srd encounter calculator and plug numbers in accordingly?

[Paragon]

Agreed with Saintheart here.
And if they can't find a way, you can have one of the NPC tell them about this spell
https://dndtools.net/spells/spell-compendium--86/dark-way--4326/

The cleric can cast it or the wizard can learn and cast it

[Barstro]

Bardic knowledge to locate a gazebo.
Dismantle gazebo and build bridge.

Pretty sure destroying the dreaded gazebo is worth 200,000 xp.

[Wintermoot]

But how are they getting the wolf, the goat and the cabbages across?

[Jay R]

But how are they getting the wolf, the goat and the cabbages across?

1. Go across the bridge with the goat.
2. Return alone.
3. Go across the bridge with the cabbage.
4. Keep going. Leave the wolf. Why do you have a wolf anyway?

[rel]

This feels like a difficult encounter for a level 2 party, trivial for level 6. I'd award XP for a CR 3 or CR 4 encounter.

[Quertus]

How many xps should they earn for crossing it, and how many for helping the others get across?

The most common responses from my evil overlord mandated 5-year-old advisor substitutes involve flight, flying a rope across, building a raft, building a rope-guided raft, saying “get good noob”, and/or charging others for any assistance provided.

As that amount of Flight is definitely 20+% or expected level 6 resources, calling it a CR 6 challenge is their initial estimate.


Swim check DC 15 to get across safely without a backpack, and a DC 20 with one.

I don’t think that’s how DC works. It’s DC 15, and maybe a backpack gives a 5-point penalty to the roll, but that should already be accounted for in their swim check - simply saying “DC 15” should suffice.

That said, what they choose to bring across, and how, can impact the DC / bonuses and penalties of the roll. For example, if they make a “floaty” on which they place gear, that may make the check easier, as they just have to paddle across while holding onto the “raft”. Or if they make a rope-guided raft, there’s likely no check required at all.


And should it matter how they solve it?

Nope. The challenge has a CR, regardless of how smart or stupid the party is in approaching it.


If it matters, the party comprises a Wizard (enchanter), a Druid, a Rogue, a gnome Bard, and a halfling Ranger, with an allied 5th level Fighter, and a cohort 4th level Cleric. They have two dogs, a cheetah, and a raven. The Ranger can fly once per day. I think the wizard has the fly spell, but doesn’t usually memorize it.

I assume that crossing it is trivial, but helping the halflings get across with their cart will be difficult. In fact, that's why the halfling's cart is there.

The CR of getting the halfling across, or of killing the halfling, taking his stuff, and getting said loot across, should be handled as a separate (optional) challenge, with its own CRs.

The CR of any challenge is its CR, regardless of the composition of the party attempting the challenge. The difficulty the party will face in overcoming that challenge will change with party composition, strategy, tactics, prostration, and luck, but the CR is static.

[noob]

In my next game, the party of 6th levels will have a heavy rain occur at night. They will have to slog beside a muddy road for awhile.

Not long after, the road approaches a river. The bridge is gone; they will see the anchoring posts where it stood. A few people are standing around trying to decide what to do. There are three humans, a couple of centaurs, and a family of halflings, with a cart pulled by a large dog.

The river is swollen from the rains, and rushing quickly. A good swimmer could swim it, but nobody could get a cart across it. Swim check DC 15 to get across safely without a backpack, and a DC 20 with one.

The river is down in a narrow ravine, and fills it from side to side, maybe 10 feet lower than the top. Climbing up the muddy slope will take a DEX roll. The centaurs are more concerned about that than about the swim.

How many xps should they earn for crossing it, and how many for helping the others get across?

If it matters, the party comprises a Wizard (enchanter), a Druid, a Rogue, a gnome Bard, and a halfling Ranger, with an allied 5th level Fighter, and a cohort 4th level Cleric. They have two dogs, a cheetah, and a raven. The Ranger can fly once per day. I think the wizard has the fly spell, but doesn’t usually memorize it.

I assume that crossing it is trivial, but helping the halflings get across with their cart will be difficult. In fact, that's why the halfling's cart is there.

And should it matter how they solve it? In fact, there is a ford several miles downstream. If they go exploring, it’s a pretty easy obstacle to get past.

What if they have a rope attached to an hook and some way of firing the hook and basically fires it at the anchoring posts on the other side?
Unless they forgot to buy a rope, an hook and a way to shoot the hook but I see most level 1 parties I have been part of getting all of those.
Would they then be able to start putting supports on both sides and start building a bridge over a few days?

[Wintermoot]

What if they have a rope attached to an hook and some way of firing the hook and basically fires it at the anchoring posts on the other side?
Unless they forgot to buy a rope, an hook and a way to shoot the hook but I see most level 1 parties I have been part of getting all of those.
Would they then be able to start putting supports on both sides and start building a bridge over a few days?

A few days? How long is this rain storm going to last? Once it's done raining, you just swim across.

[noob]

A few days? How long is this rain storm going to last? Once it's done raining, you just swim across.

How do you swim across with a whole cart?
It might be hard even with clement weather not so much due to the amount of stuff but more due to the unwieldiness of a cart in a river.
(although since it is a circumstance penalty it might just be a -2 you might just ignore by taking 10)

[Wintermoot]

How do you swim across with a whole cart?
It might be hard even with clement weather not so much due to the amount of stuff but more due to the unwieldiness of a cart in a river.
(although since it is a circumstance penalty it might just be a -2 you might just ignore by taking 10)

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS841US841&sxsrf=AJOqlzVH9fD3dFZP2tM_ds6ZfiasBgaukg:167898742 5538&q=covered+wagons+fording+a+river&tbm=isch&source=univ&fir=7D_7fh36dJB_KM%252CzH5xleagxMGeiM%252C_%253BfG f20eChiTLiJM%252Caa_p76LbCFwrxM%252C_%253BgDKIroJl JzysxM%252CwdIXG-13-a_DEM%252C_%253BkDhVY4KkDu1IEM%252CxEsdIK-0Fjhh5M%252C_%253BW2g-jhvgaBkXHM%252CKJMcKKEMEUyF-M%252C_%253Bbk9H_eicYMag6M%252CRKvWcc9Kc1gvyM%252C _%253BVh_WFCE2lt424M%252CfJK66ZvXniHCjM%252C_%253B hmooKYXfJxENjM%252CgMlOhThBP0HITM%252C_%253B6TShC5 Ecv_dn1M%252CwdIXG-13-a_DEM%252C_%253B3f6jCnyeYdxitM%252CloY-G03F7TsJYM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kTJjDO531cV2EKO5uKZsRaOIdIsKg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjQi9PI--D9AhXXLEQIHShZChsQjJkEegQIMxAC&biw=2320&bih=1371&dpr=0.8


https://www.wyohistory.org/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/newfork4_0.jpg

https://coveredwagonadventure.weebly.com/uploads/5/2/9/7/52970645/53127_orig.jpg


Maybe you didn't watch as many old timey westerns as I did as a kid, but wagons fording rivers was a routine part of frontiersmanship.

[Kish]

And should it matter how they solve it? In fact, there is a ford several miles downstream. If they go exploring, it’s a pretty easy obstacle to get past.
I'd say absolutely not to them getting less XP for finding the ford. To demonstrate why, I'll rephrase this part of the question:

Should I penalize my players for having their characters think instead of running at everything like they're animated battering rams?

[noob]

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS841US841&sxsrf=AJOqlzVH9fD3dFZP2tM_ds6ZfiasBgaukg:167898742 5538&q=covered+wagons+fording+a+river&tbm=isch&source=univ&fir=7D_7fh36dJB_KM%252CzH5xleagxMGeiM%252C_%253BfG f20eChiTLiJM%252Caa_p76LbCFwrxM%252C_%253BgDKIroJl JzysxM%252CwdIXG-13-a_DEM%252C_%253BkDhVY4KkDu1IEM%252CxEsdIK-0Fjhh5M%252C_%253BW2g-jhvgaBkXHM%252CKJMcKKEMEUyF-M%252C_%253Bbk9H_eicYMag6M%252CRKvWcc9Kc1gvyM%252C _%253BVh_WFCE2lt424M%252CfJK66ZvXniHCjM%252C_%253B hmooKYXfJxENjM%252CgMlOhThBP0HITM%252C_%253B6TShC5 Ecv_dn1M%252CwdIXG-13-a_DEM%252C_%253B3f6jCnyeYdxitM%252CloY-G03F7TsJYM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kTJjDO531cV2EKO5uKZsRaOIdIsKg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjQi9PI--D9AhXXLEQIHShZChsQjJkEegQIMxAC&biw=2320&bih=1371&dpr=0.8


https://www.wyohistory.org/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/newfork4_0.jpg

https://coveredwagonadventure.weebly.com/uploads/5/2/9/7/52970645/53127_orig.jpg


Maybe you didn't watch as many old timey westerns as I did as a kid, but wagons fording rivers was a routine part of frontiersmanship.

The second river have low depth and with the first image we do see it is wooden carts that floats and that the flow seems to be slow.

[Wintermoot]

The second river have low depth and with the first image we do see it is wooden carts that floats and that the flow seems to be slow.

The POINT is that getting carts/wagons across rivers when you aren't dealing with heavy rain and the resultant increased storm swell is not particularly difficult and doesn't require a full on bridge rebuild on the parts of the wandering adventurers. Unless it's a particularly treacherous river, the dog can literally swim across pulling it. You can string a rope to help guide it across for safety's sake.

How to you swim across with a cart? Asked and answered.

well I'm not going to post any more pics, so, as you missed the point, you missed the point. Lets move on.

[Jay R]

<pictures snipped>

Oh, good point. I need to make the cart's contents swords or some other heavy metal objects, so the cart won't float.

Also, your first picture is specifically going across at the ford. You can see the road coming out of it. Where the PCs are in my case, there is a steep gully, and the water level is five to eight feet below the ground level. You would have to lower the cart 5-8 feet into the water, and then raise it 5-8 feet on the other side to get it back on ground.

Thanks for all the help. I'm understanding the rules better every time I ask a question, and usually far beyond the simple question I've asked.

You've convinced me that it's a CR 3 challenge. 100 xps for the 6th levels; 125 for the 5th level. Any direct disagreement?

[One approach I considered for measuring the difficulty of solving a problem is measuring the real time it takes for the players to find a solution. I can see many issues with this approach, but it also gives a clear measure of how difficult it was [I]this time for these players.]

[Wintermoot]

Oh, good point. I need to make the cart's contents swords or some other heavy metal objects, so the cart won't float.



Halfling Merchants: "Oh brave adventurers, please help us get our cart of 200 swords across this river"

Average band of Adventurers: *give each other meaningful looks* *looks up resale price for swords in the PH*

*three rounds later*

Average band of Adventurers: *trudging way back to the last town with cart full of 200 swords to resale, halfling bodies washed away in the stormy river*

[Kish]

Not for the first time, I reflect that I am glad I have rarely encountered what some people consider "average" players.

(I did, once. Those two players got kicked out of the group after they tried to kill and rob the rest of our characters; the DM left much to be desired in many ways but wasn't bad enough to let that go on.)

[Jay R]

Average band of Adventurers: *trudging way back to the last town with cart full of 200 swords to resale, halfling bodies washed away in the stormy river*

Hilarious image; thanks.

Fortunately, I don't seem to have an "average band of adventurers". In fact, in 47 years of D&D (off-and-on), I never have.

I will create a world, research rules, invent NPCs, set up encounters and quests, and run adventures to help people pretend to be heroes.

I will not do all that to help people pretend to be villains.

[Kish]

Playing villains (https://paizo.com/products/btpy8tmp?Way-of-the-Wicked-Book-1-Knot-of-Thorns) can be a lot of fun.

It's playing wandering brigands that doesn't merit effort.

[smasher0404]

Halfling Merchants: "Oh brave adventurers, please help us get our cart of 200 swords across this river"

Average band of Adventurers: *give each other meaningful looks* *looks up resale price for swords in the PH*

*three rounds later*

Average band of Adventurers: *trudging way back to the last town with cart full of 200 swords to resale, halfling bodies washed away in the stormy river*

That sounds like an adventure in its own right! People will probably investigate a merchant caravan going missing. The weapons will need to be off-loaded which will require searching (most people aren't looking to buy weapons in bulk), potentially political intrigue (someone was buying weapons in bulk which means either an active war, or prepping for war), deception (people are going to ask how/why the party has this many weapons, and no travel manifest) and slows the party down to be attacked by other encounters such as bandits aiming to pull the same stunt the party has done.

[Wintermoot]

That sounds like an adventure in its own right! People will probably investigate a merchant caravan going missing. The weapons will need to be off-loaded which will require searching (most people aren't looking to buy weapons in bulk), potentially political intrigue (someone was buying weapons in bulk which means either an active war, or prepping for war), deception (people are going to ask how/why the party has this many weapons, and no travel manifest) and slows the party down to be attacked by other encounters such as bandits aiming to pull the same stunt the party has done.

I agree. I too want to know why these halfling merchants are travelling with a cart full of sword pulled by a dog.

As far as my joke "average adventurers" go, the key to dealing with said players is solid quick-thinking improvisation.

Halfling Merchants: "Oh brave adventurers, please help us get our cart of 200 swords across this river"

Average band of Adventurers: *give each other meaningful looks* *looks up resale price for swords in the PH*

Average band of Adventurers: *pull weapons and move toward the halflings*

Halfings "Merchants": *step back. "merchant" 1 drops the illusion that shows they are actually Gnomic wizard-soldiers, agents of the merchant's guild, whose role is to root out bands of evil adventurers like this. The "dog" is actually a magebred warg/blink dog hybrid and blinks out, appearing behind the adventurers, cutting off their escape path* "Halt, brigands. All of you, except you..." *points are lead adventurer* "...are under arrest! You, tragically, died resisting."

*the second soldier casts a spell. The 200 swords lurch up, roll off the back of the wagon, revealing they are some kind of animated centipede like monstrosity made out of swords. It rolls over the lead adventurer, completely eviscerating him, then rears up and hisses loudly in the rain, a hiss made up of steel grating against steel*

DM: roll initiative.

[Jay R]

I agree. I too want to know why these halfling merchants are travelling with a cart full of sword pulled by a dog.

They (like the PCs) are on the road to Tradesmeet, the largest permanent bazaar/fair/flea market on the continent, and the ultimate place to buy or sell wares.

Wrap-up: We played that game yesterday.

While I went to the kitchen to make a cup of coffee, the party started to put together an elaborate plan involving building a raft (with no Craft (woodwork) skill), tying it to a tree on a long rope, using an oar to let the rushing water propel the raft back and forth across the river, levitating one centaur on the other side, having him pull up the other centaur, and I didn’t get the rest of it. One player suggested that they might find a better place to anchor the tree if they search a little.

The wizard sent Olwen to search a couple miles either way, and found the ford about two miles downstream.

Thanks for all the help.