Superior Unarmed Strike, the Shaman and the Battle Dancer

[northernbard80]

The feat Superior Unarmed Strike from Tome of Battle is somewhat confusing in application to two classes.

Your unarmed strikes have become increasingly deadly, enabling you to strike your foes in their most vulnerable areas.

Prerequisite
Improved Unarmed Strike (PH) , Base attack bonus +3,

Benefit
You deal more damage with your unarmed strikes, as shown on the table below.

Special
If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher.

Now here's the issue: two other classes in 3.x get Improved Unarmed Strike and an unarmed damage table - the Shaman (Oriental Adventures) and the Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium).

So how does Superior Unarmed Strike affect them - if at all? Do they do additional damage in addition to their usual unarmed damage? Are they treated as "monks" for the purpose of this feat?

Any help would be appreciated.

[KillianHawkeye]

RAW: They'd use Superior Unarmed Strike's damage or their class' unarmed strike damage, whichever is better.

The sensible house rule would be to let them gain the same effective level boost that a Monk gets (using their own unarmed strike progressions).

[Chronos]

There are definitely some oddities with Superior Unarmed Strike. Imagine a 19th-level fighter with the feat, who then took his last level in Monk: Taking that Monk level would actually decrease his damage.

[northernbard80]

There are definitely some oddities with Superior Unarmed Strike. Imagine a 19th-level fighter with the feat, who then took his last level in Monk: Taking that Monk level would actually decrease his damage.

I know some 3.x class guides speak highly of this feat. But unless your character actually is geared towards unarmed strikes (i.e. Monks, Shamans), I'm not sure how practical it is for fighters, warblades, wizards, etc.

[Gruftzwerg]

I know some 3.x class guides speak highly of this feat. But unless your character actually is geared towards unarmed strikes (i.e. Monks, Shamans), I'm not sure how practical it is for fighters, warblades, wizards, etc.

1d4 > 2d6
~2.5 dmg > ~ 7 dmg

~ +4.5 dmg

By itself it is not worth it imho. If you combine it with Beast Strike (and maybe even Eldritch Claws) and get the Sizing special ability on a Necklace of Natural Attacks, it might become interesting. It really depends on the amount of build resources invested here.


regarding the class guides:
Beware that some of the guides have the misconception that SUS stacks with Monk's Belt & Tattoo. Non of these stack together. You can sole profit from one of em.

[darkdragoon]

1d4 > 2d6

regarding the class guides:
Beware that some of the guides have the misconception that SUS stacks with Monk's Belt & Tattoo. Non of these stack together. You can sole profit from one of em.


Each one is technically a different effect (damage vs damage and AC vs damage, AC, speed not to mention 4 vs. 5) and even then you still have the hard limit of Monk 20. Not to mention the sheer cost of the tattoo making it rather impractical for a die increase and maybe 1 AC.

[Gruftzwerg]

Each one is technically a different effect (damage vs damage and AC vs damage, AC, speed not to mention 4 vs. 5) and even then you still have the hard limit of Monk 20. Not to mention the sheer cost of the tattoo making it rather impractical for a die increase and maybe 1 AC.

You get the different abilities (movement speed, AC,..) yeah.
But the effective increase of monk lvls for Unarmed Strike Damage doesn't stack. You lack the permission to stack em by the rules and thus they overlap (and sole the +5 effective lvl from the Monk's Belt is affecting you).

[MornShine]

and even then you still have the hard limit of Monk 20.

The feat has a limit of 20. Monks, however, have an Epic progression.

[Gruftzwerg]

The feat has a limit of 20. Monks, however, have an Epic progression.

Monk's Unarmed Strike is still capped at lvl 20. No Epic progression.

The progression stops there and doesn't allow any further progression.

[Darg]

Monk's Unarmed Strike is still capped at lvl 20. No Epic progression.

The progression stops there and doesn't allow any further progression.

That depends on interpretation. The DMG retains the text from the EPL based on the 3.0 PHB. This automatically renders the DMG false:


Unarmed Strike: The damage for a monk’s unarmed strike does not increase after 16th level.

3.5 monk gets a damage increase at 20. This makes declaring one way or the other definitive impossible. Copy paste monster strikes again.

[Gruftzwerg]

That depends on interpretation. The DMG retains the text from the EPL based on the 3.0 PHB. This automatically renders the DMG false:



3.5 monk gets a damage increase at 20. This makes declaring one way or the other definitive impossible. Copy paste monster strikes again.

That would just further prove my point.

The table for monk's Unarmed Strike dmg ends at lvl 20 and lacks "(...)" to give us the permission to extend it (e.g. see Ability Scores table (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores)as reference).

No matter how I look at it, we never had the permission to extend the table.

[Darg]

That would just further prove my point.

The table for monk's Unarmed Strike dmg ends at lvl 20 and lacks "(...)" to give us the permission to extend it (e.g. see Ability Scores table (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores)as reference).

No matter how I look at it, we never had the permission to extend the table.


Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern (such as a rogue’s sneak attack or the number of times per day a barbarian can rage) also continue to increase or accumulate after 20th level at the same rate.


Class features with a progression that slows or stops before 20th level (such as the monk’s unarmed damage) and features that have a limited list of options (such as the rogue’s special abilities) do not improve as a character attains epic level.

A monk's unarmed damage no longer fits within the parameters of preventing progression. It has permission to continue progressing because of this as the prevention happens after permission is granted. If the prevention is no longer valid, what's left is the permission.

Ability scores have nothing to do with monk unarmed damage progression. Casters stop progressing before 20. Monk progresses at 20. Major difference.

[Gruftzwerg]

A monk's unarmed damage no longer fits within the parameters of preventing progression. It has permission to continue progressing because of this as the prevention happens after permission is granted. If the prevention is no longer valid, what's left is the permission.

Ability scores have nothing to do with monk unarmed damage progression. Casters stop progressing before 20. Monk progresses at 20. Major difference.

Sorry, but I have to disagree, because...

This...


Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern (such as a rogue’s sneak attack or the number of times per day a barbarian can rage) also continue to increase or accumulate after 20th level at the same rate.


is referring to these passages..


This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter.



At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level).

A monk's unarmed strike lacks by RAW (rules as written) any repeated pattern.

I know, you will now tell me to look at the table and explain me the "patter". I know that "pattern" very well, but that doesn't change the problem at hand. We don't have the permission to extrapolate information out of tables.

This is the reason why a monk's unarmed strike is given as example that doesn't progress on epic levels:


Class features with a progression that slows or stops before 20th level (such as the monk’s unarmed damage) and features that have a limited list of options (such as the rogue’s special abilities) do not improve as a character attains epic level.

Because the monk's US ability text never tells you to follow such a pattern.

edit:
Ability Scores Table
I did refer to it since that table ends on "etc...", which gives you the permission to extend a table in the same pattern as shown in the table. The monk's table for Unarmed Strike damage doesn't have anything like that.